Why is there no way for posts like this to exist without blatant nasty lies?
Reb Dov Landau said not to daven for soldiers?!?!?!?
And Rabbi Morgenstern, who is no major figure in Haredidom, also did not say not to daven for Israeli soldiers. For those who read the source.
The true answer is שבתך בתוך מרמה במרמה מיאנו דעת אותי. The Slifkins of the world are not mere amei ha'aretz. They are also not plain anti-vaxxers who think that ignorance is no obstacle to bombastic opinions. They are soaked and pickled in מרמה, everything they not only say, but even think and consider, is מרמה. This is why they think they can argue with Chazal without even learning, this is why they can denigrate Talmidei Chachamim without finding out what they actually said, this is why they can promote warped hashkafos with no understanding. Because במרמה מיאנו דעת אותי.
The mendacity of these posts is not a bug, it is a feature. Only with Sheker can the Slifkins of the world sleep comfortably at night.
"There needs to be a lot of clarification and clearness of thought these days in regards to this topic. There are those who feel that since they cannot participate in the military of the eirev rav, chas v'shalom, by fighting, they send the army food and tzitzis in order to feel that they are participating with the military Even though it is a great mitzvah to help Yidden, and especially those who are in danger, if one does this in this case with the specific intent of connecting to them and participating with them it is wrong, like one of the Gedolei Hador Rav Dov Landau ruled, for it is participating and connecting to the eirev rav. We are not speaking about cases where there is a need for food or tzitzis and people are doing it not with the intent of participating with them. Even saying that the Torah study one learns should be a merit for the success of the eirev rav, is wrong.
"It is simple that the root of this mistake is because people simply don't know that this was the opinion of all Gedolei Yisrael, who all held this way equally that one needs to completely distance themselves from the eirev rav Certainly anyone who is doing something wrong in this regard is doing so mistakenly כי לכל העם בשגגה for the entire nation were in error. It is important to know that the connection in anyway way to their ideology causes a big Kitrug -accusation. We need to know that based on our emunah in Hashem we should have no connection to the eirev rav and to their ways.
"We must not be confused between the distinction of davening for the safety and protection of each and every Jew as opposed to feeling a connection to the eirev rav and their military, in regards to what some are doing in sending tzitzis to soldiers, it is important to know that even though it is a tremendous joy to hear that there are Jews who are doing teshuvah, even a bit, even slowly, and are putting on tzitzis. Also, even though there are those who are admitting that they have no control and is not not "my strength and the strength of my hand," these are all great and precious accomplishments. However, if this is done in order to connect and participate with the eirev rav, it is important to know that doing it with such an intent is wrong, because it is wrong to connect to them in any way. One should firmly stay away from connecting to them in any such way.
"It is important to know that connecting to the erev rav brings about a tremendous accusation on the entire Jewish people. However the contrary is also true, the distancing from them in any way brings about and draws down a tremendous amount of mercy for the Jewish people just like the increased teffilos and tehillim does."
No, that's exactly what he said. You can davven for soldiers as part of the Jewish People, but not specifically for soldiers. I look forward to your apology.
Ridiculous,fine hair apologetics. Basically just think aboutt Jews who are not Chareidim or non Chareidim who are involved with mon Chareidim in the abstract. This will keep your mind pure and keep you isolated from. the world. These are,with all due great respect, Rabbonim and Poskim who are sometimes in total disconnect with Poskimwho are in total
How do you daven for someone while not identifying with them? The point of our personal תפילה is connecting to the כח of the כלל. Its ערבות. Our שמונה עשרה is בלשון רבים for that reason. If theyre ערב רב you dont pray for them.
"We must not be confused between the distinction of davening for the safety and protection of each and every Jew as opposed to feeling a connection to the eirev rav and their military:
He presented it as a binary choice. Either daven for the safety and protection of every Jew OR you are connecting with them which is verboten. No other option.
Why did he not say outright one can daven for them specially? It's a typical yeshivish diyuk - obviously he holds that is not an option.
Lets not forget about Rav Landau. Where did he write such a thing? In the letter that one should only engage in Torah and Tefilla for a Yeshuah and not other means? RDNS also used that to prove he said not to help soldiers. Now although I would think to take a more practical approach, As far as I know חסד and helping war effort are two different things.
You know he will kvetch away normal yeshivish style.
Something along the lines of "He chas vesholom never said you should not daven for soldiers. He said you can daven for them, providing you are only doing as a prayer for the safety and protection for every Jew'.
There are many Israeli Rabbanim saying so too. It's already tradition in the Mir from R Chaim Shmuelevitz, and Vizhnitz instituted saying a mi-shebeirach for soldiers based on the Nusach used by Rav meltzer and Rav Frank (granted, they didn't use the one composed by the Rabbanut Harashit). I've seen posts of atzeres tefilla in bnei Brak for soldiers specifically. (I am not aware of more since I am in US currently.)
מי שברך אבותינו...הוא יברך כל אחינו בני ישראל העומדים במערכי מלחמה נגד שונאי ישראל.... יפול מצידם אלף ורבבה מימינהם ושילומת ה' יראו....ויצילם מכף כל אויב ... ויצליח כל דרכיהם
Basically doesn't mention the current borders of Israel (people didn't like that since the Torah mentioned others) and some other phrases. I was composed during the 48 war.
Who ever heard of this.You call everyone who is not Chareidi erev rav and presto the're not Jews. But that depends on how we think. So one minute they are Jews and the
next they are Erav Rav. How many people have to think of them as Jews at the same timeto makethem bonafide Jews?!
this is an outsider's perspective. if you listen closely, the chareidim do believe they are doing their part. by learning Torah. there is absolutely nothing selfish about that. there is nothing selfish about caring about God's word. especially if God said to care about that. what you did is split up the chareidi argument into three parts, cast out the first two and totally ignore that they are one big mix of simple ideology. we feel that Torah is the proper way of life. we will not give that up easily. and if you ask, isn't that selfish? the answer is "no" - we are doing our part, as God instructed. again, there may be problems, such as focus too much on God's Torah, but these are detail issues (which may not have good solutions anyways) which any insider realizes that it's not something to dismiss. instead of demonizing the 'selfish chareidim' (though your tone was mostly fine, thank you), maybe try to appreciate our input, as we learn to appreciate the (so to speak second class) zevuluns and gads.
To give you an outsiders perspective, saying that you will just keep on doing what you would be doing otherwise regardless of societal needs is selfish. Saying “my sacrifice for the nation is to learn” when you would be learning regardless of what is going means that there isn’t a sacrifice for others. Adding that God told you just keep on doing what you would be doing anyhow doesn’t really make anyone else feel better.
First of all I never said that if needed we wouldn't change. But more importantly, I'm still not sure what's selfish about learning (unless one is being lazy). There's little glory in leaning, it's very boring to chazer and get things clear, every human emotion and whim pulls man in the other direction, you have to be willing to be totally wrong tens of times a day, and even when you think you really got it, you find out you're still wrong.
No one learns the depths of halacha unless they feel a responsibility to God and His nation and are committed to keeping the Torah alive. how is that not a national responsibility? It may be a different line of work than army service, and we greatly respect those willing to put their life on the line for the continuity of am yisroel, but is this not also the continuity of our nation? And not just:'also' but the thing itself.
The only true argument here is questioning the entire assumption, suggesting that Torah is indeed not so important, but let's not hide behind the army argument then; let's talk to the point. That's the whole point in calling it an outsider's perspective - we can discuss the validity of the worldview as a whole but presuming that the worldview is foolish and taking the conversation from there will get nowhere...
Thank you for the polite discussion. That seems to be an exception in this group.
"I'm still not sure what's selfish about learning (unless one is being lazy)."
I think that this is confusing long-term thinking with self-sacrifice. Let's define a selfish goal as one that you would pursue regardless of the needs of others (this is not necessarily a negative). Even when a person is pursuing purely selfish goals, they may need to sacrifice amother of their own selfish goals. I'd like to be able to sleep now, but if I want to understand this Tosafos, I need to stay with a little longer to understand it now while I'm holding kop. I'd like to join the flag football league, but I know that is going to distract me from my time in Yeshivah so I won't do it. In general, to achieve long term goals, one may need to sacrifice short term goals regardless of whether or not the goal is selfish or not. That is just long-term thinking which is necessary to be successful in any complex endeavor. Success in learning may very well require such kinds of sacrifice as well as the kind of grind that any intellectual endeavor requires that you mention. But that is not self-sacrifice.
Self-sacrifice is when you give up something that you would otherwise do in order to achieve another person's goal. So you want to be learning now, but your son really wants some ice cream, so you get up from what you are doing to get your kid what he wants and maybe you stop and give him attention for 30 minutes. Or more seriously, your mother-in-law needs health care, so you move to where she lives and maybe not be in the Yeshiva you want to and maybe you don't have the same amount of time for learning.
Or to be more on point, you are learning full time, but then you stop to train or fight as many full-time learners do. That could be a form of self-sacrifice.
Moving over to those who do enlist, almost every single one of them is pushing off their life path by 2-3 years in order to defend the Israel. Some of them want to be career military, but the vast majority are there to do their duty and the go on with the rest of their lives doing what they really want to do (including possibly some learning and some pursing other difficult intellectual pursuits).
"The only true argument here is questioning the entire assumption, suggesting that Torah is indeed not so important".
Not true on many axes. To begin with, there are full time learners who serve. So clearly those two ideas are not contradictory. Second, when you say "Torah" you really mean a very specific form of Torah observance where almost all men are directed to learn full-time indefinitely while the women are sent out to work and earn money. Most Torah observers throughout history have not taken this path. That is not to say that this method is invalid, but characterizing those who don't conform to this specific form of Avodah thin that the Torah is not so important is based on a very provincial view that is somewhat insulting to others.
But there is a much better way to understand this issue. How do you deal with a situation where there is a society where different members of the society put different values on different things? (Which is every society ever including different frum groups). There is a notion of "Pareto Optimality" which basically means that each person defines their own goals and no one can be made better off without making someone else worse off *by their own set of values*. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency
Assuming (like most people assume) that it is not possible to raise a volunteer army of sufficient size in Israel, then you are going to have to resort to force. That is you will need to force people to take some years to serve when *by their own value system* they would much prefer to be doing something else. This can be done unfairly as was done in the US during the Vietnam war where the elite decision makers exempted themselves and their children from the draft through educational and other deferments. Or it can be done more fairly as it is done in Israel where rich people are generally included.
The result is that one doesn't need to question whose values are correct to come up with a "fair" solution. Everyone gives up what they feel is most important in order to defend the nation while saving some slot for urgent public needs (e.g. to give the most promising Torah scholars an exemption). It is not necessary to say that the Torah is not important any more than it is necessary that the study of physics is unimportant because future physics students have to to go the IDF first.
So what is not being debated is not what is valuable. Instead it is the method for sharing the burden of everyone not doing what they would otherwise value most. Under a seemingly fair scheme such as this, where one group says that instead of delaying their goals for army service, they are going to do something more important by their own definition of importance and where they would be doing that exact same thing whether or not they were living in Israel or not and weither or not there was a draft, then that group is being selfish relative to the other groups. Saying that God told you to be selfish doesn't really address the unfairness.
"But how do we ask other, reluctant Israelis to pay a different price so that we don’t have to pay ours?” There is, of course, no answer to that question."
You actually answered it yourself. If those Israelis see all sorts of religious value and societal benefits in serving, the fact that charedim aren't is no more relevant than the fact that the Arabs aren't. As I wrote here, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21362651 "Charedim believe, (rightly in my view) that the insistence on drafting them is not drawn from any sort of strategic imperative, but from ideological concerns about 'the social fabric' and the like. They look and see that no one is agitating about the Arabs 'doing their part,' and they aren't impressed with comparisons between the army described in the Torah and chazal, and modern day tzahal where they have mixed gender units and the like."
(Note that this is from a *supporter* of those ideals.)
בזמנו של בן־גוריון דובר על תפקידו של צה"ל ביצירת כור היתוך, בחינוך חלוצי, בכתובת לבניית נשמת האומה המתחדשת ובהתגייסות למטרות לאומיות חשובות. היום עודכנו המשימות האזרחיות, אך עדיין חלק מהקסם טמון במפגשים בטירונות וביחידות השונות, כאשר צעירים ממקומות שונים בארץ ומרקע שונה נפגשים בזכות הצבא למשימות משותפות. מפגשים שקרוב לוודאי לא היו קורים ללא המסגרת הצבאית.
1. Very sad that Haredim identify with the Arab sector is some sort of bizarre manner.
2. The social issues are very real. Traditionally, the secular have explicitly and transparently used the army as a weapon to mold young impressionable men and women. And it has been "effective" to a large degree. Many Dati Leumi come out of army service with their religious practices in tact, and many do not (I have no idea what the numbers are).
But it seems like the Charedi sector doesn't even want to talk about this issue, perhaps because then it would lead to a negotiation of sorts that they don't want to negotiate on. Under any circumstances of national service, or Haredi friendly army service, there would indeed be a pull into the main stream society and that is exactly what the Haredi sector abhors.
Charedim don't identify with Arabs. That's laughable. It's like saying the Orthodox Jews in the 1960s identified with Jane Fonda because they didn't want to serve in Vietnam.
"But it seems like the Charedi sector doesn't even want to talk about this issue, perhaps because then it would lead to a negotiation of sorts that they don't want to negotiate on. Under any circumstances of national service, or Haredi friendly army service, there would indeed be a pull into the main stream society and that is exactly what the Haredi sector abhors."
I think there's some truth to this. But I'm still not sure why there's such a fixation on getting charedim to do some sort of national service. I understand the complaint that they're a drag on the economy. I might debate how much of a drag etc, but the basic idea has a certain fundamental validity to it. Maybe it's my American libertarian bent, but national service as some sort of obligation just sounds jingoistic and 1950s kibbutz-y. If there's a concrete need for a specific service, it would be one thing. Otherwise, it's like one of those government make-work projects.
>>If there's a concrete need for a specific service, it would be one thing. <<
At what point would the need become "concrete". Certainly we would have a benefit to add 100k men into a combination of active and reserves. We have no shortage of enemies and there is always a danger that our armed forces could simply be overwhelmed (heaven forbid). Even if the need is not yet "concrete", we will pass that threshold in the not too distant future.
Wow? You don't see it now?! The massacre at the border is not an indication to you that we need tons of soldiers. There shouldn't tbe a lack of soldiers because we want to give soldiers a break on the chagim.We have to call in te serve those who are "old" and need retraining etc.. We need a larger standing Army.With all due respect you are still " in la la land".
It would become concrete when you can make a case that doesn't simply consist of pointing out that charedim aren't serving. If there's a specific need, spell it out. It shouldn't require a bogeyman.
"We have no shortage of enemies and there is always a danger that our armed forces could simply be overwhelmed (heaven forbid)."
Anything is theoretically possible. There's no indication that such a scenario is remotely likely.
המלחמה עוררה גילויי גזענות והסתה נגד ערבים. כתוצאה מכך עובדים ערבים רבים לא התייצבו לעבודתם. רשת רמי לוי ניסתה למלא את השורות באמצעות מתנדבים[68].
המחסור בנהגי אוטובוס ערבים, המהווים מחצית מכח העבודה בענף, הביא את משרד התחבורה להודיע על דילול משמעותי בפעילות התחבורה הציבורית[69]. במספר מקרים הותקפו נהגי אוטובוס ערבים[70].
עובדים ערבים במערכת הבריאות דיווחו על ציד מכשפות[71].
במוצאי שבת 28 באוקטובר קרא ראש הגרעין התורני בנתניה, רועי אמגר, לגרש את הסטודנטים הערבים מהמעונות של מכללת נתניה מטעמי ביטחון[72]. במקביל ניסו מאות תושבי נתניה לפרוץ לתוך מעונות הסטודנטים תוך קריאות "מוות לערבים". המשטרה חילצה סטודנטים ערבים מהמקום[73].
Tzahal says they need soldiers and you can understand it, multiple fronts,dependency on reserve soldiers that need more retraining, etc..Tzahal doesn't need to prove it to you .Get with it and be a decent person and don't shirk your duty,Some call it something more derogatory. You don't even offer a compromise.Shame on
you. Tell it to the orphans and widows of Oct. 7 !
We are at war fighting for our lives and you talk about Army service like it was some non essential project. All this while soldiers and non soldiers are dying or being maimed,לא עלינו.To protect all of us.
170,000 eligible Chareidim are many גדודים.that can guard our borders,our cities.and protect us and our women and children. How about civil guard units?! Has this War not taught you anything?! Read RNS again!? You continue to dream your fake dreams.
One can make sure he is not in a mixed gender unit. Certainly in the Chareidi units no problem with that. etc.. Chareidi excuses for the real reasons as RNS pointed out.
"Charedim, on the other hand, just aren’t part of the nation to the same extent. They do not identify as Zionists, they isolate and insulate themselves from the wider public, and they are, by nature, a distinct sub-community. Moshe Rabbeinu’s argument to the Bnei Gad and Reuven, “Shall your brothers go to war and you remain here?” rings so true to non-charedim, but just doesn’t have the same impact with charedim, who don’t really see themselves as part of one family in the same way."
It's possible they don't feel part of the nation. Alternatively, they don't define the nation as equal to the state of Israel and the Zionist project. You can dislike that viewpoint however much you like, but it isn't useful to simply airbrush 100 years of charedi ambivalence and in many cases outright hostility to the Zionist idea out of existence. Especially if, as you're claiming, 'only if we understand it can we talk about how to address it.'
"Israel has been one of the top five US aid-receiving countries (which excludes aid to international organizations or broadly associated with regions) every year since 1971. Since 1974, it has been one of the top two aid recipients for all but six years."
Your third point is the most critical and is really the crux of the matter.
In addition to defending the country, the army has a social mission, to make Israelis feel closer to the State and Zionism (which is why it includes tours to sites like the Kotel and Massada), to integrate disadvantaged segments of society, (which is why they have programs for special-needs soldiers), to promote the role of women in society. And to integrate different segments of society.
The IDF has many non-military divisions, including magazines, radio station, bands, sports teams, entertainment troupes, the Netiv Program, Soldiers in civilian tasks like field schools and teaching civil defense in regular schools etc.
Personally I agree with all these missions of the IDF, however I understand why they are not all compatible with the ideology of certain segments of the Haredi world. This is why if the IDF is to remain a people's army based on Zionist ideals (and I think it should be), there will always be a segment of the Haredi population who will correctly say that they army is not compatible with their beliefs.
The only solution I can think of is to offer alternatives to the army as a form of National Service which Haredim (and Arabs) can do as an alternative to military service. This National service can be done within Haredi neighborhoods and Haredi institutions, especially organizations like Zaka, Yad Sarah, Ezer Metzion, and Haredi hospitals and special-needs schools which could benefit from the extra manpower.
Insisting that the Haredim go into the IDF as it is, even into specific Haredi units, would involve either the IDF or the Haredi community to compromise their values, and I don't think that is desirable or possible,
True, unless IDF modifies the system to make it friendly to the charedim, a major change will not happen. Maybe one day when the charedim are 50% of the population they will be forced to accomodate them. As of now an army that pays for transgender surgery for its soldiers is not a welcoming place for charedim nor do its abilities to protect the country inspire confidence.
1/3. Rav Feldman himself served in the IDF. Even though he didn't have to and could have easily gotten an exemption. This relevant fact should not be omitted.
2/3. Your statistics are misleading because you omit the 200% increase that the 2000 new joiners represent. This is already an underestimate, another 120 joined yesterday and hundreds join daily. You are determined to pretend that this isn't happening, in order to preserve your world view.
3/3. Rabbi Feldman is still politically active, so why do you need to quote something he wrote in 2013? That's 10 years ago. Is it so hard to find out if anything has changed in the past ten years? He's not hard to reach. I can send you his phone number privately, if you like.
”But charedim simply don’t grasp responsibilities on a large scale. Their mindset is one of a person in a small, heimish community. Most of the development of Torah and rabbinic literature happened when Jews did not have sovereignty, and did not focus on large-scale thinking…Their political representatives are focused on what they can get for their community, not on what the country needs.”
Here’s another possibility – Charedim in EY view themselves the same way all orthodox Jews view themselves in Chutz L’aretz. If you subtract Zionism from Religious Zionism that is what you are left with. (I am talking about the majority non-zionist charedim and not about the extreme anti-zionists). An Orthodox Jew in America typically sees himself as a Jew first and an American second. This does not mean he is not patriotic. He sees his patriotism as paying taxes and voting – not in volunteering for the US army. If there was a draft in the US the charedim (and probably all the Orthodox, if the Vietnam war is any indication) would do everything in their political power to avoid it and if that didn’t work they would move someplace else. Would you have a complaint with anyone who did that? Would that indicate that person is not a patriot? No, it only means there are limits to his patriotism and those limits are when that patriotism infringes on his religious beliefs.
The fact that charedim in EY seek political power is exactly like seeking political representation in other countries – this is how democracy works. To say it is thinking about the community and not the Country is silly – every group has its interests. Now you may counter that Israel is different because there IS a draft in place, but charedim can counter that there is also a legal exemption in place.
"Charedim in EY view themselves the same way all orthodox Jews view themselves in Chutz L’aretz."
That's not a view. It's a sickness. (And I don't think it's true.)
" every group has its interests."
But the Charedi parties in Israel have only two interests: Money for their institutions and the draft. Everything else (like Torah communities in Gaza) is gravy which can dispensed of for the right price.
ONE: The Chiyuv Limmud Torah, there is in fact a Mitzvah to learn Torah! So as long as there are others to serve in the IDF (people who would otherwise not be learning), the Charedim will learn. In 2070, when they are the majority, of course they will fight! It's really not rocket science.
TWO: The immorality in the army, and it's worse than you think. You know, like the joke, what's the difference between a Yeshiva Bochur and an IDF soldier, the bochur uses a mattress as a girl and the soldier uses a girl as a mattress. And it's some units it's not far off from reality. There are around 840 to 1000 unplanned pregnancies annually in the IDF, now keep in mind that there are only 10k to 30k permanent female soldiers in the IDF and that this is just the number of 'unplanned pregnancies' in an army where birth-control and morning-after pills are readily available, still this is as high as 10% annually!! So yes it is absolutely understandable and morally logical that the Tel Aviv teens should be there rather than the innocent Benei Berak kiderlach.
I dont think its easy for a sheltered frum man to just start sleeping around. Even if it was, not all units are the same. I was in the army and one could be jailed for entering the womens barracks. Avoid mixed combat units should do the trick. If thats not good enough, make hesder units. The off the derech tbat happens is not due to the girls. Most men in combat are not in mixed units as far as i know.
I don't know which unit you served in but I had a friend in Nachal Chareidi and that was not the report I got. There were times and places when girlfriends were not allowed but there were many opportunities. He also bemoaned the constant chilul shabbos that he had no choice but to half isolate himself many times just to feel like it was shabbos. Not the easiest situation.
Thanks. I was personally non combat (only child needs parents permission) and there were girls but wasnt much of an issue for me. As for shabbat i always found some בני ישיבות for זמירות etc. Nachal charedi has a lot of ppl already off the derech and is much weaker than hesder. Btw i dont think theres a unit named Nachal Charedi. I think its called . I Netzach Yehuda. Im surprised by what you tell me regarding girlsbbec regular combat units are single gender. I think a serious charedi is just not in the mindset of getting a secular girlfriend. I sure wasnt. I think the dangers are different. Boredom on shmira rounds can lead to depression and wearing out called שחיקה. This is more of a danger imo
I am aware the names differ. I don't remember details but he mentioned guys bringing girls in as long as they were out by a certain time, let alone gettogethers on the way home, ect. I am well aware hesder is much better (also from friends) but a typical guy from a chareidi background won't be comfortable there either. Given your background, girls may have been less of an issue since people have the gedarim from before but since by chareidi it is completely tabboo, when open to it there's more danger. (I'm not a fan of complete tabboo because of that but thats the way it is.)
Are you saying that Chareidi men in the IDF would cause more unplanned pregnancies? Do Dati-Leumi male soldiers have a problem avoiding premarital sex? Teach the men better to control themselves, don't use it as an excuse.
The Israeli army does not have a manpower shortage. Maybe one day it will have a manpower shortage, but right now it doesn't. It has a a lot of real problems, which Yitzchak Brik has been shouting about for years to no avail. Drafting a bunch of Charedim won't help with these problems at all and might even make them worse.
"For Litvishe charedim, learning Torah full-time is not only the highest value, it dwarfs all others." that and you're uote from reb ahron lopinsky are literally what you said is *not* the reason; did i miss something?
Labling the lifestyle of Jews who are actually Torah observant 'the charedi lifestyle' is a sly sly attempt to smear the actually spiritual people as a primitive and abstract group.
do you think you're going to get somewhere with chareidim if you think we don't believe what we spend all our chinuch and taching and beyond years saying over and over again?
you expect to have proper conversation with a chareidi about the army when you skip over the crux of the entire argument. dude, we have different world views. until you try to argue from within our perspective, there's no way you will get anywhere. those who also don't get it will continue supporting you, while those who do will keep ridiculing you. if you truly wish to make an impact, you hafta meet us in our turf and talk from there
Anyone with some time on his hands and just a little Hebrew language capabilities can search old Israeli newspapers since 1948.
These issues have been rehashed so many times that they are sleep-inducing.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
The old Jewish Observers used to give the answers to the complaints mentioned in blogs like this. And everyone knew that the reasons were all לשבר את האוזן, the intellectual equivalents of the complaints.
Round and round we go.
And the keyboard warriors (in Ivrit they are called 'keyboard heroes') convince themselves that they are creating policy.
And Ruach Hakodesh answers them, "Kinderlach, get yourselves productive jobs!"
I didn't read Jesus' (NS) article here, because it's the same broken record Chaderi bashing he's been doing for last 18 years. But like Jesus of old, he has separated from the main body of Klal Yisroel to start his own movement. So did Tzadok and Buytus, Anan ben David, Shabatai Tzvi, The Reform movement, the Secular Zionist movement, et al.
Can't he understand, AT LEAST NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR THIS, WE ARE AT WAR. Now is not the time to keep harping on our differences, even contentious differences. As I mentioned, I see Secular Zionism (as it was promulgated by Herzl and his circles) as a deviant transformation of Judaism, and my thoughts on that have not changed. But now is the time to set aside that battle (without forgetting it as Rav Dov Landau, and Rav Morgenstern indicated) and do what ever we can to join together for the salvation of Klal Yisroel b'es tzora. That includes: Tefilos, Torah learning, giving money, and NOT exacerbating our differences.
Even the Chinese goyim understood this. In 1937, after years of bitter fighting and killing each other, the Nationalist Chinese joined in an alliance with the Communist Chinese to fight Japan. In 1945, only after Japan was defeated, the Chinese resumed the war with each other.
In the present case, I hope, and it seems my hopes have validity, that the Achdus in this effort will have the effect of bringing the "lost sheep of Klal Yisroel" closer to Hashem. Until recently, as the Gedolim have pointed out, the Israeli draft was used as a powerful means to inculcate Zionism (a modality of transformed Judaism) in young minds; to distance Klal Yisroel from Hashem. But observing the (secular) News reports, it seems just the opposite is happening now. Most of the reports show groups of soldiers, dovening, singing, and otherwise engaging in religious fervor before going into battle.
My message for Noson Slifkin, JUST SHUT UP, AT LEAST UNTIL THIS WAR IS OVER!
The fact that Yitzchak Morgenstern (no, I won't call him "rabbi") refers to the IDF as the "eruv rav" is infantile and disgusting beyond words, and tells me all I need to know about him, whoever he is. Most charedi gedolim don't even talk like that, which makes me think that he's a fringe figure.
I don't know him, but it is not a fringe opinion. The cornerstone of the Haredi lifestyle is to stand apart. It is extremely difficult to maintain this lifestyle from one generation to the next, so it is understandable that they will adapt practices that otherwise seem bizarre and extreme.
"For secular and religious Zionists, responsibility to the State of Israel and to the nation is a major factor in the difficult task of serving in the army. We are citizens of the State, we feel part of Am Yisrael, and this is our obligation. How can we not share the burden?" You make it sound as if all non-charedim are happy to serve and would do so without a draft - after all, "how can we not share the burden?" But you know this is not true, certainly amongst the secular. You yourself claim that the biggest problem is answering the "reluctant" non-charedim.
Painting with a broad brush - the chariedim- they. How about many chareidim and some of them. As an institution- the chareidi parties . This group defamation wouldn’t v even make it into a New York Times chareidi expose.
Why is there no way for posts like this to exist without blatant nasty lies?
Reb Dov Landau said not to daven for soldiers?!?!?!?
And Rabbi Morgenstern, who is no major figure in Haredidom, also did not say not to daven for Israeli soldiers. For those who read the source.
The true answer is שבתך בתוך מרמה במרמה מיאנו דעת אותי. The Slifkins of the world are not mere amei ha'aretz. They are also not plain anti-vaxxers who think that ignorance is no obstacle to bombastic opinions. They are soaked and pickled in מרמה, everything they not only say, but even think and consider, is מרמה. This is why they think they can argue with Chazal without even learning, this is why they can denigrate Talmidei Chachamim without finding out what they actually said, this is why they can promote warped hashkafos with no understanding. Because במרמה מיאנו דעת אותי.
The mendacity of these posts is not a bug, it is a feature. Only with Sheker can the Slifkins of the world sleep comfortably at night.
Quote from R. Morgenstern:
"Clarifying this Idea of Not Connecting to Them
"There needs to be a lot of clarification and clearness of thought these days in regards to this topic. There are those who feel that since they cannot participate in the military of the eirev rav, chas v'shalom, by fighting, they send the army food and tzitzis in order to feel that they are participating with the military Even though it is a great mitzvah to help Yidden, and especially those who are in danger, if one does this in this case with the specific intent of connecting to them and participating with them it is wrong, like one of the Gedolei Hador Rav Dov Landau ruled, for it is participating and connecting to the eirev rav. We are not speaking about cases where there is a need for food or tzitzis and people are doing it not with the intent of participating with them. Even saying that the Torah study one learns should be a merit for the success of the eirev rav, is wrong.
"It is simple that the root of this mistake is because people simply don't know that this was the opinion of all Gedolei Yisrael, who all held this way equally that one needs to completely distance themselves from the eirev rav Certainly anyone who is doing something wrong in this regard is doing so mistakenly כי לכל העם בשגגה for the entire nation were in error. It is important to know that the connection in anyway way to their ideology causes a big Kitrug -accusation. We need to know that based on our emunah in Hashem we should have no connection to the eirev rav and to their ways.
"We must not be confused between the distinction of davening for the safety and protection of each and every Jew as opposed to feeling a connection to the eirev rav and their military, in regards to what some are doing in sending tzitzis to soldiers, it is important to know that even though it is a tremendous joy to hear that there are Jews who are doing teshuvah, even a bit, even slowly, and are putting on tzitzis. Also, even though there are those who are admitting that they have no control and is not not "my strength and the strength of my hand," these are all great and precious accomplishments. However, if this is done in order to connect and participate with the eirev rav, it is important to know that doing it with such an intent is wrong, because it is wrong to connect to them in any way. One should firmly stay away from connecting to them in any such way.
"It is important to know that connecting to the erev rav brings about a tremendous accusation on the entire Jewish people. However the contrary is also true, the distancing from them in any way brings about and draws down a tremendous amount of mercy for the Jewish people just like the increased teffilos and tehillim does."
So you are admitting to having lied in the name of Rabbi Morgenstern and Rabbi Landau?
No, that's exactly what he said. You can davven for soldiers as part of the Jewish People, but not specifically for soldiers. I look forward to your apology.
So davening for them is fine.
Identifying with them is not.
Get yourself a comfortable chair while you wait.
Ridiculous,fine hair apologetics. Basically just think aboutt Jews who are not Chareidim or non Chareidim who are involved with mon Chareidim in the abstract. This will keep your mind pure and keep you isolated from. the world. These are,with all due great respect, Rabbonim and Poskim who are sometimes in total disconnect with Poskimwho are in total
..disconnect with society. We need wise people not Halachik computers.
How do you daven for someone while not identifying with them? The point of our personal תפילה is connecting to the כח of the כלל. Its ערבות. Our שמונה עשרה is בלשון רבים for that reason. If theyre ערב רב you dont pray for them.
"We must not be confused between the distinction of davening for the safety and protection of each and every Jew as opposed to feeling a connection to the eirev rav and their military:
He presented it as a binary choice. Either daven for the safety and protection of every Jew OR you are connecting with them which is verboten. No other option.
Why did he not say outright one can daven for them specially? It's a typical yeshivish diyuk - obviously he holds that is not an option.
Lets not forget about Rav Landau. Where did he write such a thing? In the letter that one should only engage in Torah and Tefilla for a Yeshuah and not other means? RDNS also used that to prove he said not to help soldiers. Now although I would think to take a more practical approach, As far as I know חסד and helping war effort are two different things.
You know he will kvetch away normal yeshivish style.
Something along the lines of "He chas vesholom never said you should not daven for soldiers. He said you can daven for them, providing you are only doing as a prayer for the safety and protection for every Jew'.
Don't ask me how that works in practice.
So rabbi meiselman is a rebel for asking his students to say tehillin for the soldiers?
Hes american
Never trust Americans
There are many Israeli Rabbanim saying so too. It's already tradition in the Mir from R Chaim Shmuelevitz, and Vizhnitz instituted saying a mi-shebeirach for soldiers based on the Nusach used by Rav meltzer and Rav Frank (granted, they didn't use the one composed by the Rabbanut Harashit). I've seen posts of atzeres tefilla in bnei Brak for soldiers specifically. (I am not aware of more since I am in US currently.)
Whats the difference between the נוסחאות?
It goes something like this
מי שברך אבותינו...הוא יברך כל אחינו בני ישראל העומדים במערכי מלחמה נגד שונאי ישראל.... יפול מצידם אלף ורבבה מימינהם ושילומת ה' יראו....ויצילם מכף כל אויב ... ויצליח כל דרכיהם
Basically doesn't mention the current borders of Israel (people didn't like that since the Torah mentioned others) and some other phrases. I was composed during the 48 war.
Who ever heard of this.You call everyone who is not Chareidi erev rav and presto the're not Jews. But that depends on how we think. So one minute they are Jews and the
next they are Erav Rav. How many people have to think of them as Jews at the same timeto makethem bonafide Jews?!
Since they did not say that we are required to exclude soldiers from our prayers, that is sufficient to impeach RNS's claim .
this is an outsider's perspective. if you listen closely, the chareidim do believe they are doing their part. by learning Torah. there is absolutely nothing selfish about that. there is nothing selfish about caring about God's word. especially if God said to care about that. what you did is split up the chareidi argument into three parts, cast out the first two and totally ignore that they are one big mix of simple ideology. we feel that Torah is the proper way of life. we will not give that up easily. and if you ask, isn't that selfish? the answer is "no" - we are doing our part, as God instructed. again, there may be problems, such as focus too much on God's Torah, but these are detail issues (which may not have good solutions anyways) which any insider realizes that it's not something to dismiss. instead of demonizing the 'selfish chareidim' (though your tone was mostly fine, thank you), maybe try to appreciate our input, as we learn to appreciate the (so to speak second class) zevuluns and gads.
To give you an outsiders perspective, saying that you will just keep on doing what you would be doing otherwise regardless of societal needs is selfish. Saying “my sacrifice for the nation is to learn” when you would be learning regardless of what is going means that there isn’t a sacrifice for others. Adding that God told you just keep on doing what you would be doing anyhow doesn’t really make anyone else feel better.
First of all I never said that if needed we wouldn't change. But more importantly, I'm still not sure what's selfish about learning (unless one is being lazy). There's little glory in leaning, it's very boring to chazer and get things clear, every human emotion and whim pulls man in the other direction, you have to be willing to be totally wrong tens of times a day, and even when you think you really got it, you find out you're still wrong.
No one learns the depths of halacha unless they feel a responsibility to God and His nation and are committed to keeping the Torah alive. how is that not a national responsibility? It may be a different line of work than army service, and we greatly respect those willing to put their life on the line for the continuity of am yisroel, but is this not also the continuity of our nation? And not just:'also' but the thing itself.
The only true argument here is questioning the entire assumption, suggesting that Torah is indeed not so important, but let's not hide behind the army argument then; let's talk to the point. That's the whole point in calling it an outsider's perspective - we can discuss the validity of the worldview as a whole but presuming that the worldview is foolish and taking the conversation from there will get nowhere...
Thank you for the polite discussion. That seems to be an exception in this group.
"I'm still not sure what's selfish about learning (unless one is being lazy)."
I think that this is confusing long-term thinking with self-sacrifice. Let's define a selfish goal as one that you would pursue regardless of the needs of others (this is not necessarily a negative). Even when a person is pursuing purely selfish goals, they may need to sacrifice amother of their own selfish goals. I'd like to be able to sleep now, but if I want to understand this Tosafos, I need to stay with a little longer to understand it now while I'm holding kop. I'd like to join the flag football league, but I know that is going to distract me from my time in Yeshivah so I won't do it. In general, to achieve long term goals, one may need to sacrifice short term goals regardless of whether or not the goal is selfish or not. That is just long-term thinking which is necessary to be successful in any complex endeavor. Success in learning may very well require such kinds of sacrifice as well as the kind of grind that any intellectual endeavor requires that you mention. But that is not self-sacrifice.
Self-sacrifice is when you give up something that you would otherwise do in order to achieve another person's goal. So you want to be learning now, but your son really wants some ice cream, so you get up from what you are doing to get your kid what he wants and maybe you stop and give him attention for 30 minutes. Or more seriously, your mother-in-law needs health care, so you move to where she lives and maybe not be in the Yeshiva you want to and maybe you don't have the same amount of time for learning.
Or to be more on point, you are learning full time, but then you stop to train or fight as many full-time learners do. That could be a form of self-sacrifice.
Moving over to those who do enlist, almost every single one of them is pushing off their life path by 2-3 years in order to defend the Israel. Some of them want to be career military, but the vast majority are there to do their duty and the go on with the rest of their lives doing what they really want to do (including possibly some learning and some pursing other difficult intellectual pursuits).
"The only true argument here is questioning the entire assumption, suggesting that Torah is indeed not so important".
Not true on many axes. To begin with, there are full time learners who serve. So clearly those two ideas are not contradictory. Second, when you say "Torah" you really mean a very specific form of Torah observance where almost all men are directed to learn full-time indefinitely while the women are sent out to work and earn money. Most Torah observers throughout history have not taken this path. That is not to say that this method is invalid, but characterizing those who don't conform to this specific form of Avodah thin that the Torah is not so important is based on a very provincial view that is somewhat insulting to others.
But there is a much better way to understand this issue. How do you deal with a situation where there is a society where different members of the society put different values on different things? (Which is every society ever including different frum groups). There is a notion of "Pareto Optimality" which basically means that each person defines their own goals and no one can be made better off without making someone else worse off *by their own set of values*. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency
Assuming (like most people assume) that it is not possible to raise a volunteer army of sufficient size in Israel, then you are going to have to resort to force. That is you will need to force people to take some years to serve when *by their own value system* they would much prefer to be doing something else. This can be done unfairly as was done in the US during the Vietnam war where the elite decision makers exempted themselves and their children from the draft through educational and other deferments. Or it can be done more fairly as it is done in Israel where rich people are generally included.
The result is that one doesn't need to question whose values are correct to come up with a "fair" solution. Everyone gives up what they feel is most important in order to defend the nation while saving some slot for urgent public needs (e.g. to give the most promising Torah scholars an exemption). It is not necessary to say that the Torah is not important any more than it is necessary that the study of physics is unimportant because future physics students have to to go the IDF first.
So what is not being debated is not what is valuable. Instead it is the method for sharing the burden of everyone not doing what they would otherwise value most. Under a seemingly fair scheme such as this, where one group says that instead of delaying their goals for army service, they are going to do something more important by their own definition of importance and where they would be doing that exact same thing whether or not they were living in Israel or not and weither or not there was a draft, then that group is being selfish relative to the other groups. Saying that God told you to be selfish doesn't really address the unfairness.
"But how do we ask other, reluctant Israelis to pay a different price so that we don’t have to pay ours?” There is, of course, no answer to that question."
You actually answered it yourself. If those Israelis see all sorts of religious value and societal benefits in serving, the fact that charedim aren't is no more relevant than the fact that the Arabs aren't. As I wrote here, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21362651 "Charedim believe, (rightly in my view) that the insistence on drafting them is not drawn from any sort of strategic imperative, but from ideological concerns about 'the social fabric' and the like. They look and see that no one is agitating about the Arabs 'doing their part,' and they aren't impressed with comparisons between the army described in the Torah and chazal, and modern day tzahal where they have mixed gender units and the like."
EDIT-
https://www.maariv.co.il/journalists/Article-881
(Note that this is from a *supporter* of those ideals.)
בזמנו של בן־גוריון דובר על תפקידו של צה"ל ביצירת כור היתוך, בחינוך חלוצי, בכתובת לבניית נשמת האומה המתחדשת ובהתגייסות למטרות לאומיות חשובות. היום עודכנו המשימות האזרחיות, אך עדיין חלק מהקסם טמון במפגשים בטירונות וביחידות השונות, כאשר צעירים ממקומות שונים בארץ ומרקע שונה נפגשים בזכות הצבא למשימות משותפות. מפגשים שקרוב לוודאי לא היו קורים ללא המסגרת הצבאית.
IMO, all valid. And in response:
1. Very sad that Haredim identify with the Arab sector is some sort of bizarre manner.
2. The social issues are very real. Traditionally, the secular have explicitly and transparently used the army as a weapon to mold young impressionable men and women. And it has been "effective" to a large degree. Many Dati Leumi come out of army service with their religious practices in tact, and many do not (I have no idea what the numbers are).
But it seems like the Charedi sector doesn't even want to talk about this issue, perhaps because then it would lead to a negotiation of sorts that they don't want to negotiate on. Under any circumstances of national service, or Haredi friendly army service, there would indeed be a pull into the main stream society and that is exactly what the Haredi sector abhors.
Charedim don't identify with Arabs. That's laughable. It's like saying the Orthodox Jews in the 1960s identified with Jane Fonda because they didn't want to serve in Vietnam.
"But it seems like the Charedi sector doesn't even want to talk about this issue, perhaps because then it would lead to a negotiation of sorts that they don't want to negotiate on. Under any circumstances of national service, or Haredi friendly army service, there would indeed be a pull into the main stream society and that is exactly what the Haredi sector abhors."
I think there's some truth to this. But I'm still not sure why there's such a fixation on getting charedim to do some sort of national service. I understand the complaint that they're a drag on the economy. I might debate how much of a drag etc, but the basic idea has a certain fundamental validity to it. Maybe it's my American libertarian bent, but national service as some sort of obligation just sounds jingoistic and 1950s kibbutz-y. If there's a concrete need for a specific service, it would be one thing. Otherwise, it's like one of those government make-work projects.
>>If there's a concrete need for a specific service, it would be one thing. <<
At what point would the need become "concrete". Certainly we would have a benefit to add 100k men into a combination of active and reserves. We have no shortage of enemies and there is always a danger that our armed forces could simply be overwhelmed (heaven forbid). Even if the need is not yet "concrete", we will pass that threshold in the not too distant future.
Wow? You don't see it now?! The massacre at the border is not an indication to you that we need tons of soldiers. There shouldn't tbe a lack of soldiers because we want to give soldiers a break on the chagim.We have to call in te serve those who are "old" and need retraining etc.. We need a larger standing Army.With all due respect you are still " in la la land".
"The massacre at the border is not an indication to you that we need tons of soldiers."
No it's not. I think you live in chawara-land.
You are totally brainwashed.
You don't know the realities of overburdened overworked soldiers who can makemistakes under pressure.
"At what point would the need become "concrete"."
It would become concrete when you can make a case that doesn't simply consist of pointing out that charedim aren't serving. If there's a specific need, spell it out. It shouldn't require a bogeyman.
"We have no shortage of enemies and there is always a danger that our armed forces could simply be overwhelmed (heaven forbid)."
Anything is theoretically possible. There's no indication that such a scenario is remotely likely.
OK..I'll spell it out.
I have 4 married sons /sons-in-law currently serving. 15 grandkids whose fathers are away. In my community that is the norm, not the exception.
If more people served, maybe my kids could be rotated home more often.
What is that so hard to understand?
Can you explain a bit more? Are your kids doing miluim?
Because, they believe that they are serving in a spiritual army. (Of course, that service allows going home every day. And complete weekends off.)
If there were more reservists, there could be more of a rotation. Aside from everything else, this would enable people not to lose their businesses.
Can you be clearer? Are you talking about during the current situation? Or generally?
Also, charedim aren't the ones causing all these issues:
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%A3_%D7%94%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%99_%D7%91%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%AA_%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%96%D7%9C#%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%AA_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D
רדיפת ערבים
המלחמה עוררה גילויי גזענות והסתה נגד ערבים. כתוצאה מכך עובדים ערבים רבים לא התייצבו לעבודתם. רשת רמי לוי ניסתה למלא את השורות באמצעות מתנדבים[68].
המחסור בנהגי אוטובוס ערבים, המהווים מחצית מכח העבודה בענף, הביא את משרד התחבורה להודיע על דילול משמעותי בפעילות התחבורה הציבורית[69]. במספר מקרים הותקפו נהגי אוטובוס ערבים[70].
עובדים ערבים במערכת הבריאות דיווחו על ציד מכשפות[71].
במוצאי שבת 28 באוקטובר קרא ראש הגרעין התורני בנתניה, רועי אמגר, לגרש את הסטודנטים הערבים מהמעונות של מכללת נתניה מטעמי ביטחון[72]. במקביל ניסו מאות תושבי נתניה לפרוץ לתוך מעונות הסטודנטים תוך קריאות "מוות לערבים". המשטרה חילצה סטודנטים ערבים מהמקום[73].
Tzahal says they need soldiers and you can understand it, multiple fronts,dependency on reserve soldiers that need more retraining, etc..Tzahal doesn't need to prove it to you .Get with it and be a decent person and don't shirk your duty,Some call it something more derogatory. You don't even offer a compromise.Shame on
you. Tell it to the orphans and widows of Oct. 7 !
"Tell it to the orphans and widows of Oct. 7 !"
Tell them what?
We are at war fighting for our lives and you talk about Army service like it was some non essential project. All this while soldiers and non soldiers are dying or being maimed,לא עלינו.To protect all of us.
You aren't making an actual argument.
I'll spell it out. Get your lazy ass into the Army.!
Ah! Why didn't you say so?
You don't have to be in a mixed gender unit. There are plenty npn mixed. And the Chareidi units.
Not relevant to the point I was making.
It is relevant to your excuses.
Should be noted by you the detractor and excuse maker.
170,000 eligible Chareidim are many גדודים.that can guard our borders,our cities.and protect us and our women and children. How about civil guard units?! Has this War not taught you anything?! Read RNS again!? You continue to dream your fake dreams.
"Has this War not taught you anything?!"
It's taught me plenty. Just not what you would like it to have. The facts speak for themselves. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-real-reasons-why-charedim-dont/comment/43144659
So if you are told by Tzhal that they need soldiers you would go? And what about sharing the burden and risk. בושה וחרפה.
Oh, you said "בושה וחרפה." Well that settles it.
One can make sure he is not in a mixed gender unit. Certainly in the Chareidi units no problem with that. etc.. Chareidi excuses for the real reasons as RNS pointed out.
"Charedim, on the other hand, just aren’t part of the nation to the same extent. They do not identify as Zionists, they isolate and insulate themselves from the wider public, and they are, by nature, a distinct sub-community. Moshe Rabbeinu’s argument to the Bnei Gad and Reuven, “Shall your brothers go to war and you remain here?” rings so true to non-charedim, but just doesn’t have the same impact with charedim, who don’t really see themselves as part of one family in the same way."
It's possible they don't feel part of the nation. Alternatively, they don't define the nation as equal to the state of Israel and the Zionist project. You can dislike that viewpoint however much you like, but it isn't useful to simply airbrush 100 years of charedi ambivalence and in many cases outright hostility to the Zionist idea out of existence. Especially if, as you're claiming, 'only if we understand it can we talk about how to address it.'
But the money the Chareidim are there to take.How a about no money equals no draft.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/
"Israel has been one of the top five US aid-receiving countries (which excludes aid to international organizations or broadly associated with regions) every year since 1971. Since 1974, it has been one of the top two aid recipients for all but six years."
As you say you're not relating to my argument.
"It's possible they don't feel part of the nation. "
That's a problem.
"Alternatively, they don't define the nation as equal to the state of Israel and the Zionist project. "
That's not a alternative to the first statement. It's an independent concept.
I’m awaiting the appearance of “Cheerful”…
Your third point is the most critical and is really the crux of the matter.
In addition to defending the country, the army has a social mission, to make Israelis feel closer to the State and Zionism (which is why it includes tours to sites like the Kotel and Massada), to integrate disadvantaged segments of society, (which is why they have programs for special-needs soldiers), to promote the role of women in society. And to integrate different segments of society.
The IDF has many non-military divisions, including magazines, radio station, bands, sports teams, entertainment troupes, the Netiv Program, Soldiers in civilian tasks like field schools and teaching civil defense in regular schools etc.
Personally I agree with all these missions of the IDF, however I understand why they are not all compatible with the ideology of certain segments of the Haredi world. This is why if the IDF is to remain a people's army based on Zionist ideals (and I think it should be), there will always be a segment of the Haredi population who will correctly say that they army is not compatible with their beliefs.
The only solution I can think of is to offer alternatives to the army as a form of National Service which Haredim (and Arabs) can do as an alternative to military service. This National service can be done within Haredi neighborhoods and Haredi institutions, especially organizations like Zaka, Yad Sarah, Ezer Metzion, and Haredi hospitals and special-needs schools which could benefit from the extra manpower.
Insisting that the Haredim go into the IDF as it is, even into specific Haredi units, would involve either the IDF or the Haredi community to compromise their values, and I don't think that is desirable or possible,
True, unless IDF modifies the system to make it friendly to the charedim, a major change will not happen. Maybe one day when the charedim are 50% of the population they will be forced to accomodate them. As of now an army that pays for transgender surgery for its soldiers is not a welcoming place for charedim nor do its abilities to protect the country inspire confidence.
1/3. Rav Feldman himself served in the IDF. Even though he didn't have to and could have easily gotten an exemption. This relevant fact should not be omitted.
2/3. Your statistics are misleading because you omit the 200% increase that the 2000 new joiners represent. This is already an underestimate, another 120 joined yesterday and hundreds join daily. You are determined to pretend that this isn't happening, in order to preserve your world view.
3/3. Rabbi Feldman is still politically active, so why do you need to quote something he wrote in 2013? That's 10 years ago. Is it so hard to find out if anything has changed in the past ten years? He's not hard to reach. I can send you his phone number privately, if you like.
”But charedim simply don’t grasp responsibilities on a large scale. Their mindset is one of a person in a small, heimish community. Most of the development of Torah and rabbinic literature happened when Jews did not have sovereignty, and did not focus on large-scale thinking…Their political representatives are focused on what they can get for their community, not on what the country needs.”
Here’s another possibility – Charedim in EY view themselves the same way all orthodox Jews view themselves in Chutz L’aretz. If you subtract Zionism from Religious Zionism that is what you are left with. (I am talking about the majority non-zionist charedim and not about the extreme anti-zionists). An Orthodox Jew in America typically sees himself as a Jew first and an American second. This does not mean he is not patriotic. He sees his patriotism as paying taxes and voting – not in volunteering for the US army. If there was a draft in the US the charedim (and probably all the Orthodox, if the Vietnam war is any indication) would do everything in their political power to avoid it and if that didn’t work they would move someplace else. Would you have a complaint with anyone who did that? Would that indicate that person is not a patriot? No, it only means there are limits to his patriotism and those limits are when that patriotism infringes on his religious beliefs.
The fact that charedim in EY seek political power is exactly like seeking political representation in other countries – this is how democracy works. To say it is thinking about the community and not the Country is silly – every group has its interests. Now you may counter that Israel is different because there IS a draft in place, but charedim can counter that there is also a legal exemption in place.
"Charedim in EY view themselves the same way all orthodox Jews view themselves in Chutz L’aretz."
That's not a view. It's a sickness. (And I don't think it's true.)
" every group has its interests."
But the Charedi parties in Israel have only two interests: Money for their institutions and the draft. Everything else (like Torah communities in Gaza) is gravy which can dispensed of for the right price.
Well said! This point deserves more attention.
No, you missed the two actual reasons:
ONE: The Chiyuv Limmud Torah, there is in fact a Mitzvah to learn Torah! So as long as there are others to serve in the IDF (people who would otherwise not be learning), the Charedim will learn. In 2070, when they are the majority, of course they will fight! It's really not rocket science.
TWO: The immorality in the army, and it's worse than you think. You know, like the joke, what's the difference between a Yeshiva Bochur and an IDF soldier, the bochur uses a mattress as a girl and the soldier uses a girl as a mattress. And it's some units it's not far off from reality. There are around 840 to 1000 unplanned pregnancies annually in the IDF, now keep in mind that there are only 10k to 30k permanent female soldiers in the IDF and that this is just the number of 'unplanned pregnancies' in an army where birth-control and morning-after pills are readily available, still this is as high as 10% annually!! So yes it is absolutely understandable and morally logical that the Tel Aviv teens should be there rather than the innocent Benei Berak kiderlach.
Kinderlach? Are they boys or men?
I dont think its easy for a sheltered frum man to just start sleeping around. Even if it was, not all units are the same. I was in the army and one could be jailed for entering the womens barracks. Avoid mixed combat units should do the trick. If thats not good enough, make hesder units. The off the derech tbat happens is not due to the girls. Most men in combat are not in mixed units as far as i know.
Thank you for your service.
I don't know which unit you served in but I had a friend in Nachal Chareidi and that was not the report I got. There were times and places when girlfriends were not allowed but there were many opportunities. He also bemoaned the constant chilul shabbos that he had no choice but to half isolate himself many times just to feel like it was shabbos. Not the easiest situation.
Thanks. I was personally non combat (only child needs parents permission) and there were girls but wasnt much of an issue for me. As for shabbat i always found some בני ישיבות for זמירות etc. Nachal charedi has a lot of ppl already off the derech and is much weaker than hesder. Btw i dont think theres a unit named Nachal Charedi. I think its called . I Netzach Yehuda. Im surprised by what you tell me regarding girlsbbec regular combat units are single gender. I think a serious charedi is just not in the mindset of getting a secular girlfriend. I sure wasnt. I think the dangers are different. Boredom on shmira rounds can lead to depression and wearing out called שחיקה. This is more of a danger imo
I am aware the names differ. I don't remember details but he mentioned guys bringing girls in as long as they were out by a certain time, let alone gettogethers on the way home, ect. I am well aware hesder is much better (also from friends) but a typical guy from a chareidi background won't be comfortable there either. Given your background, girls may have been less of an issue since people have the gedarim from before but since by chareidi it is completely tabboo, when open to it there's more danger. (I'm not a fan of complete tabboo because of that but thats the way it is.)
Are you saying that Chareidi men in the IDF would cause more unplanned pregnancies? Do Dati-Leumi male soldiers have a problem avoiding premarital sex? Teach the men better to control themselves, don't use it as an excuse.
The Israeli army does not have a manpower shortage. Maybe one day it will have a manpower shortage, but right now it doesn't. It has a a lot of real problems, which Yitzchak Brik has been shouting about for years to no avail. Drafting a bunch of Charedim won't help with these problems at all and might even make them worse.
"For Litvishe charedim, learning Torah full-time is not only the highest value, it dwarfs all others." that and you're uote from reb ahron lopinsky are literally what you said is *not* the reason; did i miss something?
It's the highest value *for promoting as the charedi lifestyle*.
You spelt 'Torah lifestyle' wrong...
Labling the lifestyle of Jews who are actually Torah observant 'the charedi lifestyle' is a sly sly attempt to smear the actually spiritual people as a primitive and abstract group.
do you think you're going to get somewhere with chareidim if you think we don't believe what we spend all our chinuch and taching and beyond years saying over and over again?
you expect to have proper conversation with a chareidi about the army when you skip over the crux of the entire argument. dude, we have different world views. until you try to argue from within our perspective, there's no way you will get anywhere. those who also don't get it will continue supporting you, while those who do will keep ridiculing you. if you truly wish to make an impact, you hafta meet us in our turf and talk from there
If that's how you think of it you just don't get chareidim...
Anyone with some time on his hands and just a little Hebrew language capabilities can search old Israeli newspapers since 1948.
These issues have been rehashed so many times that they are sleep-inducing.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
The old Jewish Observers used to give the answers to the complaints mentioned in blogs like this. And everyone knew that the reasons were all לשבר את האוזן, the intellectual equivalents of the complaints.
Round and round we go.
And the keyboard warriors (in Ivrit they are called 'keyboard heroes') convince themselves that they are creating policy.
And Ruach Hakodesh answers them, "Kinderlach, get yourselves productive jobs!"
I didn't read Jesus' (NS) article here, because it's the same broken record Chaderi bashing he's been doing for last 18 years. But like Jesus of old, he has separated from the main body of Klal Yisroel to start his own movement. So did Tzadok and Buytus, Anan ben David, Shabatai Tzvi, The Reform movement, the Secular Zionist movement, et al.
Can't he understand, AT LEAST NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR THIS, WE ARE AT WAR. Now is not the time to keep harping on our differences, even contentious differences. As I mentioned, I see Secular Zionism (as it was promulgated by Herzl and his circles) as a deviant transformation of Judaism, and my thoughts on that have not changed. But now is the time to set aside that battle (without forgetting it as Rav Dov Landau, and Rav Morgenstern indicated) and do what ever we can to join together for the salvation of Klal Yisroel b'es tzora. That includes: Tefilos, Torah learning, giving money, and NOT exacerbating our differences.
Even the Chinese goyim understood this. In 1937, after years of bitter fighting and killing each other, the Nationalist Chinese joined in an alliance with the Communist Chinese to fight Japan. In 1945, only after Japan was defeated, the Chinese resumed the war with each other.
In the present case, I hope, and it seems my hopes have validity, that the Achdus in this effort will have the effect of bringing the "lost sheep of Klal Yisroel" closer to Hashem. Until recently, as the Gedolim have pointed out, the Israeli draft was used as a powerful means to inculcate Zionism (a modality of transformed Judaism) in young minds; to distance Klal Yisroel from Hashem. But observing the (secular) News reports, it seems just the opposite is happening now. Most of the reports show groups of soldiers, dovening, singing, and otherwise engaging in religious fervor before going into battle.
My message for Noson Slifkin, JUST SHUT UP, AT LEAST UNTIL THIS WAR IS OVER!
The fact that Yitzchak Morgenstern (no, I won't call him "rabbi") refers to the IDF as the "eruv rav" is infantile and disgusting beyond words, and tells me all I need to know about him, whoever he is. Most charedi gedolim don't even talk like that, which makes me think that he's a fringe figure.
I don't know him, but it is not a fringe opinion. The cornerstone of the Haredi lifestyle is to stand apart. It is extremely difficult to maintain this lifestyle from one generation to the next, so it is understandable that they will adapt practices that otherwise seem bizarre and extreme.
"For secular and religious Zionists, responsibility to the State of Israel and to the nation is a major factor in the difficult task of serving in the army. We are citizens of the State, we feel part of Am Yisrael, and this is our obligation. How can we not share the burden?" You make it sound as if all non-charedim are happy to serve and would do so without a draft - after all, "how can we not share the burden?" But you know this is not true, certainly amongst the secular. You yourself claim that the biggest problem is answering the "reluctant" non-charedim.
Painting with a broad brush - the chariedim- they. How about many chareidim and some of them. As an institution- the chareidi parties . This group defamation wouldn’t v even make it into a New York Times chareidi expose.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/generalizations-about-generalizations
Yes Charles, you forgot that NS gave himself a blanket heter to generalize when it comes to charedim so all is good.
Which of the generalizations are not valid?