this is an outsider's perspective. if you listen closely, the chareidim do believe they are doing their part. by learning Torah. there is absolutely nothing selfish about that. there is nothing selfish about caring about God's word. especially if God said to care about that. what you did is split up the chareidi argument into three parts, cast out the first two and totally ignore that they are one big mix of simple ideology. we feel that Torah is the proper way of life. we will not give that up easily. and if you ask, isn't that selfish? the answer is "no" - we are doing our part, as God instructed. again, there may be problems, such as focus too much on God's Torah, but these are detail issues (which may not have good solutions anyways) which any insider realizes that it's not something to dismiss. instead of demonizing the 'selfish chareidim' (though your tone was mostly fine, thank you), maybe try to appreciate our input, as we learn to appreciate the (so to speak second class) zevuluns and gads.
To give you an outsiders perspective, saying that you will just keep on doing what you would be doing otherwise regardless of societal needs is selfish. Saying “my sacrifice for the nation is to learn” when you would be learning regardless of what is going means that there isn’t a sacrifice for others. Adding that God told you just keep on doing what you would be doing anyhow doesn’t really make anyone else feel better.
First of all I never said that if needed we wouldn't change. But more importantly, I'm still not sure what's selfish about learning (unless one is being lazy). There's little glory in leaning, it's very boring to chazer and get things clear, every human emotion and whim pulls man in the other direction, you have to be willing to be totally wrong tens of times a day, and even when you think you really got it, you find out you're still wrong.
No one learns the depths of halacha unless they feel a responsibility to God and His nation and are committed to keeping the Torah alive. how is that not a national responsibility? It may be a different line of work than army service, and we greatly respect those willing to put their life on the line for the continuity of am yisroel, but is this not also the continuity of our nation? And not just:'also' but the thing itself.
The only true argument here is questioning the entire assumption, suggesting that Torah is indeed not so important, but let's not hide behind the army argument then; let's talk to the point. That's the whole point in calling it an outsider's perspective - we can discuss the validity of the worldview as a whole but presuming that the worldview is foolish and taking the conversation from there will get nowhere...
Thank you for the polite discussion. That seems to be an exception in this group.
"I'm still not sure what's selfish about learning (unless one is being lazy)."
I think that this is confusing long-term thinking with self-sacrifice. Let's define a selfish goal as one that you would pursue regardless of the needs of others (this is not necessarily a negative). Even when a person is pursuing purely selfish goals, they may need to sacrifice amother of their own selfish goals. I'd like to be able to sleep now, but if I want to understand this Tosafos, I need to stay with a little longer to understand it now while I'm holding kop. I'd like to join the flag football league, but I know that is going to distract me from my time in Yeshivah so I won't do it. In general, to achieve long term goals, one may need to sacrifice short term goals regardless of whether or not the goal is selfish or not. That is just long-term thinking which is necessary to be successful in any complex endeavor. Success in learning may very well require such kinds of sacrifice as well as the kind of grind that any intellectual endeavor requires that you mention. But that is not self-sacrifice.
Self-sacrifice is when you give up something that you would otherwise do in order to achieve another person's goal. So you want to be learning now, but your son really wants some ice cream, so you get up from what you are doing to get your kid what he wants and maybe you stop and give him attention for 30 minutes. Or more seriously, your mother-in-law needs health care, so you move to where she lives and maybe not be in the Yeshiva you want to and maybe you don't have the same amount of time for learning.
Or to be more on point, you are learning full time, but then you stop to train or fight as many full-time learners do. That could be a form of self-sacrifice.
Moving over to those who do enlist, almost every single one of them is pushing off their life path by 2-3 years in order to defend the Israel. Some of them want to be career military, but the vast majority are there to do their duty and the go on with the rest of their lives doing what they really want to do (including possibly some learning and some pursing other difficult intellectual pursuits).
"The only true argument here is questioning the entire assumption, suggesting that Torah is indeed not so important".
Not true on many axes. To begin with, there are full time learners who serve. So clearly those two ideas are not contradictory. Second, when you say "Torah" you really mean a very specific form of Torah observance where almost all men are directed to learn full-time indefinitely while the women are sent out to work and earn money. Most Torah observers throughout history have not taken this path. That is not to say that this method is invalid, but characterizing those who don't conform to this specific form of Avodah thin that the Torah is not so important is based on a very provincial view that is somewhat insulting to others.
But there is a much better way to understand this issue. How do you deal with a situation where there is a society where different members of the society put different values on different things? (Which is every society ever including different frum groups). There is a notion of "Pareto Optimality" which basically means that each person defines their own goals and no one can be made better off without making someone else worse off *by their own set of values*. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency
Assuming (like most people assume) that it is not possible to raise a volunteer army of sufficient size in Israel, then you are going to have to resort to force. That is you will need to force people to take some years to serve when *by their own value system* they would much prefer to be doing something else. This can be done unfairly as was done in the US during the Vietnam war where the elite decision makers exempted themselves and their children from the draft through educational and other deferments. Or it can be done more fairly as it is done in Israel where rich people are generally included.
The result is that one doesn't need to question whose values are correct to come up with a "fair" solution. Everyone gives up what they feel is most important in order to defend the nation while saving some slot for urgent public needs (e.g. to give the most promising Torah scholars an exemption). It is not necessary to say that the Torah is not important any more than it is necessary that the study of physics is unimportant because future physics students have to to go the IDF first.
So what is not being debated is not what is valuable. Instead it is the method for sharing the burden of everyone not doing what they would otherwise value most. Under a seemingly fair scheme such as this, where one group says that instead of delaying their goals for army service, they are going to do something more important by their own definition of importance and where they would be doing that exact same thing whether or not they were living in Israel or not and weither or not there was a draft, then that group is being selfish relative to the other groups. Saying that God told you to be selfish doesn't really address the unfairness.
Your third point is the most critical and is really the crux of the matter.
In addition to defending the country, the army has a social mission, to make Israelis feel closer to the State and Zionism (which is why it includes tours to sites like the Kotel and Massada), to integrate disadvantaged segments of society, (which is why they have programs for special-needs soldiers), to promote the role of women in society. And to integrate different segments of society.
The IDF has many non-military divisions, including magazines, radio station, bands, sports teams, entertainment troupes, the Netiv Program, Soldiers in civilian tasks like field schools and teaching civil defense in regular schools etc.
Personally I agree with all these missions of the IDF, however I understand why they are not all compatible with the ideology of certain segments of the Haredi world. This is why if the IDF is to remain a people's army based on Zionist ideals (and I think it should be), there will always be a segment of the Haredi population who will correctly say that they army is not compatible with their beliefs.
The only solution I can think of is to offer alternatives to the army as a form of National Service which Haredim (and Arabs) can do as an alternative to military service. This National service can be done within Haredi neighborhoods and Haredi institutions, especially organizations like Zaka, Yad Sarah, Ezer Metzion, and Haredi hospitals and special-needs schools which could benefit from the extra manpower.
Insisting that the Haredim go into the IDF as it is, even into specific Haredi units, would involve either the IDF or the Haredi community to compromise their values, and I don't think that is desirable or possible,
True, unless IDF modifies the system to make it friendly to the charedim, a major change will not happen. Maybe one day when the charedim are 50% of the population they will be forced to accomodate them. As of now an army that pays for transgender surgery for its soldiers is not a welcoming place for charedim nor do its abilities to protect the country inspire confidence.
1/3. Rav Feldman himself served in the IDF. Even though he didn't have to and could have easily gotten an exemption. This relevant fact should not be omitted.
2/3. Your statistics are misleading because you omit the 200% increase that the 2000 new joiners represent. This is already an underestimate, another 120 joined yesterday and hundreds join daily. You are determined to pretend that this isn't happening, in order to preserve your world view.
3/3. Rabbi Feldman is still politically active, so why do you need to quote something he wrote in 2013? That's 10 years ago. Is it so hard to find out if anything has changed in the past ten years? He's not hard to reach. I can send you his phone number privately, if you like.
ONE: The Chiyuv Limmud Torah, there is in fact a Mitzvah to learn Torah! So as long as there are others to serve in the IDF (people who would otherwise not be learning), the Charedim will learn. In 2070, when they are the majority, of course they will fight! It's really not rocket science.
TWO: The immorality in the army, and it's worse than you think. You know, like the joke, what's the difference between a Yeshiva Bochur and an IDF soldier, the bochur uses a mattress as a girl and the soldier uses a girl as a mattress. And it's some units it's not far off from reality. There are around 840 to 1000 unplanned pregnancies annually in the IDF, now keep in mind that there are only 10k to 30k permanent female soldiers in the IDF and that this is just the number of 'unplanned pregnancies' in an army where birth-control and morning-after pills are readily available, still this is as high as 10% annually!! So yes it is absolutely understandable and morally logical that the Tel Aviv teens should be there rather than the innocent Benei Berak kiderlach.
I dont think its easy for a sheltered frum man to just start sleeping around. Even if it was, not all units are the same. I was in the army and one could be jailed for entering the womens barracks. Avoid mixed combat units should do the trick. If thats not good enough, make hesder units. The off the derech tbat happens is not due to the girls. Most men in combat are not in mixed units as far as i know.
I don't know which unit you served in but I had a friend in Nachal Chareidi and that was not the report I got. There were times and places when girlfriends were not allowed but there were many opportunities. He also bemoaned the constant chilul shabbos that he had no choice but to half isolate himself many times just to feel like it was shabbos. Not the easiest situation.
Thanks. I was personally non combat (only child needs parents permission) and there were girls but wasnt much of an issue for me. As for shabbat i always found some בני ישיבות for זמירות etc. Nachal charedi has a lot of ppl already off the derech and is much weaker than hesder. Btw i dont think theres a unit named Nachal Charedi. I think its called . I Netzach Yehuda. Im surprised by what you tell me regarding girlsbbec regular combat units are single gender. I think a serious charedi is just not in the mindset of getting a secular girlfriend. I sure wasnt. I think the dangers are different. Boredom on shmira rounds can lead to depression and wearing out called שחיקה. This is more of a danger imo
I am aware the names differ. I don't remember details but he mentioned guys bringing girls in as long as they were out by a certain time, let alone gettogethers on the way home, ect. I am well aware hesder is much better (also from friends) but a typical guy from a chareidi background won't be comfortable there either. Given your background, girls may have been less of an issue since people have the gedarim from before but since by chareidi it is completely tabboo, when open to it there's more danger. (I'm not a fan of complete tabboo because of that but thats the way it is.)
Are you saying that Chareidi men in the IDF would cause more unplanned pregnancies? Do Dati-Leumi male soldiers have a problem avoiding premarital sex? Teach the men better to control themselves, don't use it as an excuse.
The Israeli army does not have a manpower shortage. Maybe one day it will have a manpower shortage, but right now it doesn't. It has a a lot of real problems, which Yitzchak Brik has been shouting about for years to no avail. Drafting a bunch of Charedim won't help with these problems at all and might even make them worse.
"For Litvishe charedim, learning Torah full-time is not only the highest value, it dwarfs all others." that and you're uote from reb ahron lopinsky are literally what you said is *not* the reason; did i miss something?
Labling the lifestyle of Jews who are actually Torah observant 'the charedi lifestyle' is a sly sly attempt to smear the actually spiritual people as a primitive and abstract group.
do you think you're going to get somewhere with chareidim if you think we don't believe what we spend all our chinuch and taching and beyond years saying over and over again?
you expect to have proper conversation with a chareidi about the army when you skip over the crux of the entire argument. dude, we have different world views. until you try to argue from within our perspective, there's no way you will get anywhere. those who also don't get it will continue supporting you, while those who do will keep ridiculing you. if you truly wish to make an impact, you hafta meet us in our turf and talk from there
Anyone with some time on his hands and just a little Hebrew language capabilities can search old Israeli newspapers since 1948.
These issues have been rehashed so many times that they are sleep-inducing.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
The old Jewish Observers used to give the answers to the complaints mentioned in blogs like this. And everyone knew that the reasons were all לשבר את האוזן, the intellectual equivalents of the complaints.
Round and round we go.
And the keyboard warriors (in Ivrit they are called 'keyboard heroes') convince themselves that they are creating policy.
And Ruach Hakodesh answers them, "Kinderlach, get yourselves productive jobs!"
The fact that Yitzchak Morgenstern (no, I won't call him "rabbi") refers to the IDF as the "eruv rav" is infantile and disgusting beyond words, and tells me all I need to know about him, whoever he is. Most charedi gedolim don't even talk like that, which makes me think that he's a fringe figure.
I don't know him, but it is not a fringe opinion. The cornerstone of the Haredi lifestyle is to stand apart. It is extremely difficult to maintain this lifestyle from one generation to the next, so it is understandable that they will adapt practices that otherwise seem bizarre and extreme.
Painting with a broad brush - the chariedim- they. How about many chareidim and some of them. As an institution- the chareidi parties . This group defamation wouldn’t v even make it into a New York Times chareidi expose.
I am not sure how Meron made it into the article but I will address it since it's been repeated too much lately with no response:
" That’s one of the reasons why the Meron disaster happened - charedim just don’t grasp that running an event for hundreds of thousands of people requires a whole different level of safety and planning and professional guidance and compliance with international standards."
It is the exact opposite. For years things in Meron went relatively smooth until the year of the disaster. Why? Since although there were police there, the event planning was organized mainly by Chareidim, who understood the nature of the crowds and addressed things properly. Then after Covid, the police insisted on full control, and set things up in a way that it was a disaster waiting to happen. The next year was equally as dangerous in other ways, and regardless was planned really badly. Then the next year things were taken over by chareidim again, and watta ya know? Things worked out and everyone was happy!
Basically, Meron is the worst example possible to present failings of chareidim. Admit the problems instead of twisting them.
No of course it's not true. The place was always a disaster waiting to happen. There are strict protocols about how to do large-scale events safely, but with Meron, they were all either ignored or overriden by askanim/politicians.
"Last week, Kahana and Tesler traveled to Meron, and were presented with a survey of the site, which showed that other than the stone structure within the gravesite itself, all of the structures were built without permits and in contradiction to the plan. Since the Unit began its work at the site in the past six months, 45 dangerous and illegal structures have been removed." https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/320164
Classic example of black-and-white text having nothing to do with reality. I was in Meron many times and twice on Lag Baomer (for fun, for those who care I'm no mystic). Those 45 "structures" were all along a road leading up the hill, consisting of vendors, Chabad/breslev booths, some hostels, hachnasas orchim and the like. Here's the catch: This did not cause any issue in crowd control as the road itself leading up to the Tzion had plenty of room even on the busiest day of the year. The main issue was in the tzion area, where things got very crowded, and not much has changed now either. The only changes were the מעבר לכהנים. The main issue was how things would be blocked off in the wrong places where throngs of people were expected to be exiting or entering. The fact that this is what they were focused on, taking down illegal structures, proves how they had no idea how to deal with chareidi crowd control.
I remember reading an article by a non-Jewish professor analyzing why in מאה שערים they are very careful about separation of genders, and he said it comes from Christian values, as there are major Churches neighboring the community.
And Tessler sure did a great job that Lag ba'omer. It was just as unsafe, closing off 90% of the space and pushing the few people in small spaces. Keeping woman on busses for 5 hours straight with no bathroom as not to overcrowd rest stops. Tessler admitted he messed up, but only after the fact.
Not to mention that year the police abandoned the place to govern themselves, showing their great sense of responsibility.
No, that year it was the Chareidi Yossi Deusch who noticed things were much worse than usual and called his connections in the police to do something about it, but he was ignored. This was already reported 2 hours before the disaster happened.
Based on my experience when I was there, and following the news each year, that was pretty clear. My brother was there the year of the disaster and my father was there the following year as well.
Just read the news before and after every lag baomer. Especially last year when the Chareidi MK's made that a condition in the coalition that they can control Meron for that exact reason. This was going on even When R Slifkin made his first post claiming this.
Someone quoted to me last night the candid explanation of a prominent haredi Rav, spoken in private as to why they don't serve, "We want our children to look like us."
My thought was that he's probably correct: most children who serve will likely not look like their parents afterwards (ie. culturally identify as strictly haredi and outwardly signal that they're strictly hared; more likely they will have an entirely different view of the world once they've been exposed to and formed deep connections with a broader range of people).
But what's the halachic rationale that this exempts them from serving?
For the sake of perpetuating a lifestyle and culture that cannot withstand that challenge?
You really think that's the 'real' reason? Not because we have a st of values which places Torah really high above everything? I mean I guess if by devaluing Torah we feel at will end up like you, yes, but the main point is that we value Torah
It's not lifestyle and culture. Its a belief system that this is how God wants us to live our lives. You can disagree with that, but that doesn't shrink it down to anthropology.
You can say that about any religion. It doesn't mean it is true in this case, especially when it evolved based on people pushing for it who believed in it.
Would you like to see your kid become yerushalmi? If no, for cultural reasons or because you are against that belief? Would you send your kid to the army if there was a good chance he'll end up in מאה שערים?
And what if I did object to my kid becoming Yerushalmi or wind up in מאה שערים if went to the army?
So what?
That gives my son a halachic exemption?
I'd guess NONE of the parents who send their kids to the army want them to come back in a body bag, horribly disfigured by burns over large parts of their bodies, or bullet-ridden and missing internal organs. Nor do they want them losing precious years of their lives when they could engaged in more productive endeavors.
That means their sons as well shouldn't have to go?
This is too serious to cover up and not discuss.People are dying and the answer it's not Chareidi values to serve doesn't cut it.Time for Chareidim to reevaluate theirapproach.Grassroots change and pressure can help change Chareidi attitudes. The sociological approach may help understand Chareidim but doesn't justify their actions. One way is to reduce funding to Chareidi institutions that do not have some type of National or Army service from their students You would be surprised how quickly the leadership would moderate their position. I believe that many Chareidi Rabbanim and students are afraid to voice different opinions or approaches. Bad for a shidduch, fired from their teaching positions etc.. Given the opportunity they would eagerly moderate their hardline
approach. Many of the non- Chareidi folk would gladly accept some kind of National Service from the Chareidim. But the current situation is not acceptable or feasible.
You say as if it something never discussed !? No one is going to be convinced one way or the other based on this post, it only deepens existing rift. Something Am Yisrael certainly doesn't need right now.
It has to do with why the Chareidim shirk their national duty. And yes 170,000 Chareidim eligible for the draft is several גדודים. They could make a difference.
The blog is hashing out the underlying reasons here. You haven't posted any counter arguments. You're simply proposing the idea that the discussion is more harmful than the silence. Good luck with that.
Yes I am proposing that posting one sided anti chareidi material on a random blog causes more arguments than it does solutions. If you wish to disagree I would at least hope for a more intellectual response than a mere "Good luck", which certainly never solved any issues.
There are a lot of people in charedi society who read this blog, as well as many people whose various decisions have an effect on both themselves and charedi society.
I'm not reading this post as "anti-Haredi". The subject matter is per force subjective - opinions. You haven't even stated that you disagree with his propositions. You are rather proposing that RNS cease and desist to offer his opinions. Can't you do better than that?
In other words, what exactly is the "negative outcome" that you are concerned about? Are there persons out there that generally accept the Haredi policies and their stated reasons for justifying these policies, but they come along to this blog and start second guessing themselves?
Being anti and being subjective is by no means contradictory. I think I have stated my concerns above . My side of the argument is irrelevant to the point I am making
this is an outsider's perspective. if you listen closely, the chareidim do believe they are doing their part. by learning Torah. there is absolutely nothing selfish about that. there is nothing selfish about caring about God's word. especially if God said to care about that. what you did is split up the chareidi argument into three parts, cast out the first two and totally ignore that they are one big mix of simple ideology. we feel that Torah is the proper way of life. we will not give that up easily. and if you ask, isn't that selfish? the answer is "no" - we are doing our part, as God instructed. again, there may be problems, such as focus too much on God's Torah, but these are detail issues (which may not have good solutions anyways) which any insider realizes that it's not something to dismiss. instead of demonizing the 'selfish chareidim' (though your tone was mostly fine, thank you), maybe try to appreciate our input, as we learn to appreciate the (so to speak second class) zevuluns and gads.
To give you an outsiders perspective, saying that you will just keep on doing what you would be doing otherwise regardless of societal needs is selfish. Saying “my sacrifice for the nation is to learn” when you would be learning regardless of what is going means that there isn’t a sacrifice for others. Adding that God told you just keep on doing what you would be doing anyhow doesn’t really make anyone else feel better.
First of all I never said that if needed we wouldn't change. But more importantly, I'm still not sure what's selfish about learning (unless one is being lazy). There's little glory in leaning, it's very boring to chazer and get things clear, every human emotion and whim pulls man in the other direction, you have to be willing to be totally wrong tens of times a day, and even when you think you really got it, you find out you're still wrong.
No one learns the depths of halacha unless they feel a responsibility to God and His nation and are committed to keeping the Torah alive. how is that not a national responsibility? It may be a different line of work than army service, and we greatly respect those willing to put their life on the line for the continuity of am yisroel, but is this not also the continuity of our nation? And not just:'also' but the thing itself.
The only true argument here is questioning the entire assumption, suggesting that Torah is indeed not so important, but let's not hide behind the army argument then; let's talk to the point. That's the whole point in calling it an outsider's perspective - we can discuss the validity of the worldview as a whole but presuming that the worldview is foolish and taking the conversation from there will get nowhere...
Thank you for the polite discussion. That seems to be an exception in this group.
"I'm still not sure what's selfish about learning (unless one is being lazy)."
I think that this is confusing long-term thinking with self-sacrifice. Let's define a selfish goal as one that you would pursue regardless of the needs of others (this is not necessarily a negative). Even when a person is pursuing purely selfish goals, they may need to sacrifice amother of their own selfish goals. I'd like to be able to sleep now, but if I want to understand this Tosafos, I need to stay with a little longer to understand it now while I'm holding kop. I'd like to join the flag football league, but I know that is going to distract me from my time in Yeshivah so I won't do it. In general, to achieve long term goals, one may need to sacrifice short term goals regardless of whether or not the goal is selfish or not. That is just long-term thinking which is necessary to be successful in any complex endeavor. Success in learning may very well require such kinds of sacrifice as well as the kind of grind that any intellectual endeavor requires that you mention. But that is not self-sacrifice.
Self-sacrifice is when you give up something that you would otherwise do in order to achieve another person's goal. So you want to be learning now, but your son really wants some ice cream, so you get up from what you are doing to get your kid what he wants and maybe you stop and give him attention for 30 minutes. Or more seriously, your mother-in-law needs health care, so you move to where she lives and maybe not be in the Yeshiva you want to and maybe you don't have the same amount of time for learning.
Or to be more on point, you are learning full time, but then you stop to train or fight as many full-time learners do. That could be a form of self-sacrifice.
Moving over to those who do enlist, almost every single one of them is pushing off their life path by 2-3 years in order to defend the Israel. Some of them want to be career military, but the vast majority are there to do their duty and the go on with the rest of their lives doing what they really want to do (including possibly some learning and some pursing other difficult intellectual pursuits).
"The only true argument here is questioning the entire assumption, suggesting that Torah is indeed not so important".
Not true on many axes. To begin with, there are full time learners who serve. So clearly those two ideas are not contradictory. Second, when you say "Torah" you really mean a very specific form of Torah observance where almost all men are directed to learn full-time indefinitely while the women are sent out to work and earn money. Most Torah observers throughout history have not taken this path. That is not to say that this method is invalid, but characterizing those who don't conform to this specific form of Avodah thin that the Torah is not so important is based on a very provincial view that is somewhat insulting to others.
But there is a much better way to understand this issue. How do you deal with a situation where there is a society where different members of the society put different values on different things? (Which is every society ever including different frum groups). There is a notion of "Pareto Optimality" which basically means that each person defines their own goals and no one can be made better off without making someone else worse off *by their own set of values*. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency
Assuming (like most people assume) that it is not possible to raise a volunteer army of sufficient size in Israel, then you are going to have to resort to force. That is you will need to force people to take some years to serve when *by their own value system* they would much prefer to be doing something else. This can be done unfairly as was done in the US during the Vietnam war where the elite decision makers exempted themselves and their children from the draft through educational and other deferments. Or it can be done more fairly as it is done in Israel where rich people are generally included.
The result is that one doesn't need to question whose values are correct to come up with a "fair" solution. Everyone gives up what they feel is most important in order to defend the nation while saving some slot for urgent public needs (e.g. to give the most promising Torah scholars an exemption). It is not necessary to say that the Torah is not important any more than it is necessary that the study of physics is unimportant because future physics students have to to go the IDF first.
So what is not being debated is not what is valuable. Instead it is the method for sharing the burden of everyone not doing what they would otherwise value most. Under a seemingly fair scheme such as this, where one group says that instead of delaying their goals for army service, they are going to do something more important by their own definition of importance and where they would be doing that exact same thing whether or not they were living in Israel or not and weither or not there was a draft, then that group is being selfish relative to the other groups. Saying that God told you to be selfish doesn't really address the unfairness.
I’m awaiting the appearance of “Cheerful”…
Your third point is the most critical and is really the crux of the matter.
In addition to defending the country, the army has a social mission, to make Israelis feel closer to the State and Zionism (which is why it includes tours to sites like the Kotel and Massada), to integrate disadvantaged segments of society, (which is why they have programs for special-needs soldiers), to promote the role of women in society. And to integrate different segments of society.
The IDF has many non-military divisions, including magazines, radio station, bands, sports teams, entertainment troupes, the Netiv Program, Soldiers in civilian tasks like field schools and teaching civil defense in regular schools etc.
Personally I agree with all these missions of the IDF, however I understand why they are not all compatible with the ideology of certain segments of the Haredi world. This is why if the IDF is to remain a people's army based on Zionist ideals (and I think it should be), there will always be a segment of the Haredi population who will correctly say that they army is not compatible with their beliefs.
The only solution I can think of is to offer alternatives to the army as a form of National Service which Haredim (and Arabs) can do as an alternative to military service. This National service can be done within Haredi neighborhoods and Haredi institutions, especially organizations like Zaka, Yad Sarah, Ezer Metzion, and Haredi hospitals and special-needs schools which could benefit from the extra manpower.
Insisting that the Haredim go into the IDF as it is, even into specific Haredi units, would involve either the IDF or the Haredi community to compromise their values, and I don't think that is desirable or possible,
True, unless IDF modifies the system to make it friendly to the charedim, a major change will not happen. Maybe one day when the charedim are 50% of the population they will be forced to accomodate them. As of now an army that pays for transgender surgery for its soldiers is not a welcoming place for charedim nor do its abilities to protect the country inspire confidence.
1/3. Rav Feldman himself served in the IDF. Even though he didn't have to and could have easily gotten an exemption. This relevant fact should not be omitted.
2/3. Your statistics are misleading because you omit the 200% increase that the 2000 new joiners represent. This is already an underestimate, another 120 joined yesterday and hundreds join daily. You are determined to pretend that this isn't happening, in order to preserve your world view.
3/3. Rabbi Feldman is still politically active, so why do you need to quote something he wrote in 2013? That's 10 years ago. Is it so hard to find out if anything has changed in the past ten years? He's not hard to reach. I can send you his phone number privately, if you like.
No, you missed the two actual reasons:
ONE: The Chiyuv Limmud Torah, there is in fact a Mitzvah to learn Torah! So as long as there are others to serve in the IDF (people who would otherwise not be learning), the Charedim will learn. In 2070, when they are the majority, of course they will fight! It's really not rocket science.
TWO: The immorality in the army, and it's worse than you think. You know, like the joke, what's the difference between a Yeshiva Bochur and an IDF soldier, the bochur uses a mattress as a girl and the soldier uses a girl as a mattress. And it's some units it's not far off from reality. There are around 840 to 1000 unplanned pregnancies annually in the IDF, now keep in mind that there are only 10k to 30k permanent female soldiers in the IDF and that this is just the number of 'unplanned pregnancies' in an army where birth-control and morning-after pills are readily available, still this is as high as 10% annually!! So yes it is absolutely understandable and morally logical that the Tel Aviv teens should be there rather than the innocent Benei Berak kiderlach.
Kinderlach? Are they boys or men?
I dont think its easy for a sheltered frum man to just start sleeping around. Even if it was, not all units are the same. I was in the army and one could be jailed for entering the womens barracks. Avoid mixed combat units should do the trick. If thats not good enough, make hesder units. The off the derech tbat happens is not due to the girls. Most men in combat are not in mixed units as far as i know.
Thank you for your service.
I don't know which unit you served in but I had a friend in Nachal Chareidi and that was not the report I got. There were times and places when girlfriends were not allowed but there were many opportunities. He also bemoaned the constant chilul shabbos that he had no choice but to half isolate himself many times just to feel like it was shabbos. Not the easiest situation.
Thanks. I was personally non combat (only child needs parents permission) and there were girls but wasnt much of an issue for me. As for shabbat i always found some בני ישיבות for זמירות etc. Nachal charedi has a lot of ppl already off the derech and is much weaker than hesder. Btw i dont think theres a unit named Nachal Charedi. I think its called . I Netzach Yehuda. Im surprised by what you tell me regarding girlsbbec regular combat units are single gender. I think a serious charedi is just not in the mindset of getting a secular girlfriend. I sure wasnt. I think the dangers are different. Boredom on shmira rounds can lead to depression and wearing out called שחיקה. This is more of a danger imo
I am aware the names differ. I don't remember details but he mentioned guys bringing girls in as long as they were out by a certain time, let alone gettogethers on the way home, ect. I am well aware hesder is much better (also from friends) but a typical guy from a chareidi background won't be comfortable there either. Given your background, girls may have been less of an issue since people have the gedarim from before but since by chareidi it is completely tabboo, when open to it there's more danger. (I'm not a fan of complete tabboo because of that but thats the way it is.)
Are you saying that Chareidi men in the IDF would cause more unplanned pregnancies? Do Dati-Leumi male soldiers have a problem avoiding premarital sex? Teach the men better to control themselves, don't use it as an excuse.
The Israeli army does not have a manpower shortage. Maybe one day it will have a manpower shortage, but right now it doesn't. It has a a lot of real problems, which Yitzchak Brik has been shouting about for years to no avail. Drafting a bunch of Charedim won't help with these problems at all and might even make them worse.
"For Litvishe charedim, learning Torah full-time is not only the highest value, it dwarfs all others." that and you're uote from reb ahron lopinsky are literally what you said is *not* the reason; did i miss something?
It's the highest value *for promoting as the charedi lifestyle*.
You spelt 'Torah lifestyle' wrong...
Labling the lifestyle of Jews who are actually Torah observant 'the charedi lifestyle' is a sly sly attempt to smear the actually spiritual people as a primitive and abstract group.
do you think you're going to get somewhere with chareidim if you think we don't believe what we spend all our chinuch and taching and beyond years saying over and over again?
you expect to have proper conversation with a chareidi about the army when you skip over the crux of the entire argument. dude, we have different world views. until you try to argue from within our perspective, there's no way you will get anywhere. those who also don't get it will continue supporting you, while those who do will keep ridiculing you. if you truly wish to make an impact, you hafta meet us in our turf and talk from there
If that's how you think of it you just don't get chareidim...
Anyone with some time on his hands and just a little Hebrew language capabilities can search old Israeli newspapers since 1948.
These issues have been rehashed so many times that they are sleep-inducing.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
The old Jewish Observers used to give the answers to the complaints mentioned in blogs like this. And everyone knew that the reasons were all לשבר את האוזן, the intellectual equivalents of the complaints.
Round and round we go.
And the keyboard warriors (in Ivrit they are called 'keyboard heroes') convince themselves that they are creating policy.
And Ruach Hakodesh answers them, "Kinderlach, get yourselves productive jobs!"
The fact that Yitzchak Morgenstern (no, I won't call him "rabbi") refers to the IDF as the "eruv rav" is infantile and disgusting beyond words, and tells me all I need to know about him, whoever he is. Most charedi gedolim don't even talk like that, which makes me think that he's a fringe figure.
I don't know him, but it is not a fringe opinion. The cornerstone of the Haredi lifestyle is to stand apart. It is extremely difficult to maintain this lifestyle from one generation to the next, so it is understandable that they will adapt practices that otherwise seem bizarre and extreme.
Painting with a broad brush - the chariedim- they. How about many chareidim and some of them. As an institution- the chareidi parties . This group defamation wouldn’t v even make it into a New York Times chareidi expose.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/generalizations-about-generalizations
Which of the generalizations are not valid?
I am not sure how Meron made it into the article but I will address it since it's been repeated too much lately with no response:
" That’s one of the reasons why the Meron disaster happened - charedim just don’t grasp that running an event for hundreds of thousands of people requires a whole different level of safety and planning and professional guidance and compliance with international standards."
It is the exact opposite. For years things in Meron went relatively smooth until the year of the disaster. Why? Since although there were police there, the event planning was organized mainly by Chareidim, who understood the nature of the crowds and addressed things properly. Then after Covid, the police insisted on full control, and set things up in a way that it was a disaster waiting to happen. The next year was equally as dangerous in other ways, and regardless was planned really badly. Then the next year things were taken over by chareidim again, and watta ya know? Things worked out and everyone was happy!
Basically, Meron is the worst example possible to present failings of chareidim. Admit the problems instead of twisting them.
Omg is that true?
No of course it's not true. The place was always a disaster waiting to happen. There are strict protocols about how to do large-scale events safely, but with Meron, they were all either ignored or overriden by askanim/politicians.
"Last week, Kahana and Tesler traveled to Meron, and were presented with a survey of the site, which showed that other than the stone structure within the gravesite itself, all of the structures were built without permits and in contradiction to the plan. Since the Unit began its work at the site in the past six months, 45 dangerous and illegal structures have been removed." https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/320164
Classic example of black-and-white text having nothing to do with reality. I was in Meron many times and twice on Lag Baomer (for fun, for those who care I'm no mystic). Those 45 "structures" were all along a road leading up the hill, consisting of vendors, Chabad/breslev booths, some hostels, hachnasas orchim and the like. Here's the catch: This did not cause any issue in crowd control as the road itself leading up to the Tzion had plenty of room even on the busiest day of the year. The main issue was in the tzion area, where things got very crowded, and not much has changed now either. The only changes were the מעבר לכהנים. The main issue was how things would be blocked off in the wrong places where throngs of people were expected to be exiting or entering. The fact that this is what they were focused on, taking down illegal structures, proves how they had no idea how to deal with chareidi crowd control.
I remember reading an article by a non-Jewish professor analyzing why in מאה שערים they are very careful about separation of genders, and he said it comes from Christian values, as there are major Churches neighboring the community.
And Tessler sure did a great job that Lag ba'omer. It was just as unsafe, closing off 90% of the space and pushing the few people in small spaces. Keeping woman on busses for 5 hours straight with no bathroom as not to overcrowd rest stops. Tessler admitted he messed up, but only after the fact.
Not to mention that year the police abandoned the place to govern themselves, showing their great sense of responsibility.
No, that year it was the Chareidi Yossi Deusch who noticed things were much worse than usual and called his connections in the police to do something about it, but he was ignored. This was already reported 2 hours before the disaster happened.
Based on my experience when I was there, and following the news each year, that was pretty clear. My brother was there the year of the disaster and my father was there the following year as well.
Just read the news before and after every lag baomer. Especially last year when the Chareidi MK's made that a condition in the coalition that they can control Meron for that exact reason. This was going on even When R Slifkin made his first post claiming this.
I deleted a longer comment, bc frankly this post is so ridiculous it doesn't merit a response.
I am looking forward to the "what can be done post." Especially hearing what the state and the Army can do to accommodate Charedim.
Someone quoted to me last night the candid explanation of a prominent haredi Rav, spoken in private as to why they don't serve, "We want our children to look like us."
My thought was that he's probably correct: most children who serve will likely not look like their parents afterwards (ie. culturally identify as strictly haredi and outwardly signal that they're strictly hared; more likely they will have an entirely different view of the world once they've been exposed to and formed deep connections with a broader range of people).
But what's the halachic rationale that this exempts them from serving?
For the sake of perpetuating a lifestyle and culture that cannot withstand that challenge?
Well, at least he was honest about the reason, not like all the charedi apologists on this thread.
You really think that's the 'real' reason? Not because we have a st of values which places Torah really high above everything? I mean I guess if by devaluing Torah we feel at will end up like you, yes, but the main point is that we value Torah
You're taking time away from Torah to engage here online with heresy. Your filter seems to have some holes in it.
I'll take the mussar but that has nothing to do with the argument at hand
True - could be that everyone else in your community is earnest about "Torah really high above everything else."
I'm also earnest about it even though I have a yetzer hara
True.
But he thought that the reason he gave sounded reasonable and persuasive.
It's not lifestyle and culture. Its a belief system that this is how God wants us to live our lives. You can disagree with that, but that doesn't shrink it down to anthropology.
Have you ever read Jonathan Haidt? Beliefs and belonging are hard to separate, with beliefs often being a product of belonging, not vice versa.
You can say that about any religion. It doesn't mean it is true in this case, especially when it evolved based on people pushing for it who believed in it.
What's true is that they're hard to separate.
Would you like to see your kid become yerushalmi? If no, for cultural reasons or because you are against that belief? Would you send your kid to the army if there was a good chance he'll end up in מאה שערים?
And what if I did object to my kid becoming Yerushalmi or wind up in מאה שערים if went to the army?
So what?
That gives my son a halachic exemption?
I'd guess NONE of the parents who send their kids to the army want them to come back in a body bag, horribly disfigured by burns over large parts of their bodies, or bullet-ridden and missing internal organs. Nor do they want them losing precious years of their lives when they could engaged in more productive endeavors.
That means their sons as well shouldn't have to go?
You made some decent points today, all without sounding overly bitter or vindictive.
Right or wrong , please stop writing material that creates greater rifts in Klal Yisroel . The only outcome from something like this is negative.
This is too serious to cover up and not discuss.People are dying and the answer it's not Chareidi values to serve doesn't cut it.Time for Chareidim to reevaluate theirapproach.Grassroots change and pressure can help change Chareidi attitudes. The sociological approach may help understand Chareidim but doesn't justify their actions. One way is to reduce funding to Chareidi institutions that do not have some type of National or Army service from their students You would be surprised how quickly the leadership would moderate their position. I believe that many Chareidi Rabbanim and students are afraid to voice different opinions or approaches. Bad for a shidduch, fired from their teaching positions etc.. Given the opportunity they would eagerly moderate their hardline
approach. Many of the non- Chareidi folk would gladly accept some kind of National Service from the Chareidim. But the current situation is not acceptable or feasible.
You say as if it something never discussed !? No one is going to be convinced one way or the other based on this post, it only deepens existing rift. Something Am Yisrael certainly doesn't need right now.
It has to do with why the Chareidim shirk their national duty. And yes 170,000 Chareidim eligible for the draft is several גדודים. They could make a difference.
I want to see those numbers. 170,000??? That's adult males between what ages? 18-26?
I didn't know our nation was so big.
An issue that cannot be talked about is an issued that cannot be dealt with.
I dont recall the last time this blog "Dealt" with an Issue
The blog is hashing out the underlying reasons here. You haven't posted any counter arguments. You're simply proposing the idea that the discussion is more harmful than the silence. Good luck with that.
Yes I am proposing that posting one sided anti chareidi material on a random blog causes more arguments than it does solutions. If you wish to disagree I would at least hope for a more intellectual response than a mere "Good luck", which certainly never solved any issues.
There are a lot of people in charedi society who read this blog, as well as many people whose various decisions have an effect on both themselves and charedi society.
I was referring to the article being one sided not the blog as a whole
I'm not reading this post as "anti-Haredi". The subject matter is per force subjective - opinions. You haven't even stated that you disagree with his propositions. You are rather proposing that RNS cease and desist to offer his opinions. Can't you do better than that?
In other words, what exactly is the "negative outcome" that you are concerned about? Are there persons out there that generally accept the Haredi policies and their stated reasons for justifying these policies, but they come along to this blog and start second guessing themselves?
Being anti and being subjective is by no means contradictory. I think I have stated my concerns above . My side of the argument is irrelevant to the point I am making