"What's going to be?!" "This will mean the destruction of Torah!!" seems to be the go-to line in defense of current Israeli chareidi status quo, which is of course silly and ahistorical. (And, incidentally, it's not as if the current chareidi system is producing many gedolim, either.)
Somehow (a) the daati leumi, Anglos, Sephardim, and all other frum people in Israel, (b) virtually all American frum Jews (including in the yeshiva world), and (c) most of the Jewish people throughout our entire history somehow managed to work and be Torah Jews.
It's not the work per se, it's the integration with secularists. Jews throughout our history have NOT managed to integrate with the non-Jews and remain Jewish themselves.
They don't need to integrate - see my examples. Heck, they can open their own businesses or work for other chareidim. They live in *Israel* for crying out loud. It should be easier there than anywhere else!
The demand to join the secular/secularist army is a demand to integrate. One of the primary intentions of the IDF was to be a people's army, that is a "melting pot that would create social cohesion among Israelis from diverse backgrounds and build up a national identity" -https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-739857 There is no reason to believe that has changed, and every reason to believe it hasn't. “For 75 years, the People’s Army model has proven beyond any doubt that there is not and there must not be any substitute. It is the secret of the IDF’s strength, the secret of the nation’s strength.” -Herzi Halevi
The demand to have the education controlled by the secular state is likewise a demand to integrate.
That's your challenge! So the "other" has to work for you!? Has to fight for you.! Find those who are willing to support you. But Chareidim have to fight in the Army. No one has to fight for them. Find religious solutions but not at the public's expense and against the public will and law.If you disagree find a country that satisfies your needs.
Nobody *has* to do anything for us. Nobody is forcing you to fight. You are welcome to not fight as well. We are saying that it is far more important to us to keep our religion than to participate in army service.
Leave the country.Follow the law.We religious people believe you can be religious with Army
Service. We agree Chareidim must must join the Army. We will not tolerate seeing soldiers chas vsholem being killed and maimed while you rest peacefully. Too bad! That's the elephant in the room that you don't talk about!
Nah, we don't need to leave the country. Go ahead, try kicking us out first.
The secularists have no right to be in Eretz Yisroel in the first place, only the Torah observant have a right to the land. The secularists are only allowed to remain in the merit of the Torah observant. If the Torah observant c"v left, the Arabs would c"v swoop down on you guys like a pack of wolves, leaving nothing.
We don't have to go to the Army? We do'nt go and who fights the Arabs as they invade! Hishtadlus my friend when it is convenient! The Brit with the Avot is with the Jewish people not just with the Chareidim. You haven't talked to G-d lately so you don't know and can't know and decide these matters. You think and I think, so what, and G-d decides.
Nah, ואתם תהיו לי ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש. We are supposed to live apart from the non-Jews (which for our purposes includes Israeli secularists). Since the chareidi proportion of the population is growing much faster than the secularists, it is you guys who will have to get used to it.
Independent from foreign values not live apart with no connection. They are בני נוח and we already see efforts to have them acknowledge this with the responsibilities it entails. As per Chabad and Harav Sherki.
So u want to live apart. W/o taking the needed precautions i.e. academics or vocational training to sustain the community, do u accept the consequences and responsibility ($$)?
They already face consequences. They have already demonstrated that they are willing to suffer poverty for the sake of the Torah.
As for your other comment, the chareidim are the ones who are doing the most kiruv by far. The "rationalist" LW DL don't even care enough to keep the Torah themselves, ק"ו trying to get others to. At best they will get their "rabbis" to say מותר לך מותר לך. And it's a misconception about Avraham, he moved away from Lot.
Y.U was the first to have a formal kiruv program before Chabad and was very successful. Some of the students eventually entered the Smicha program and became successful congregational rabbis. In your ignorance everyone who is not Chareidi is not learned nor devoted to Torah.Especially when their Torah views do not agree with yours.
“…suffer poverty.” And then play politics to get needed funds from the very institution (the medinah) despised and demeaned.
Re your 2nd comment, there are indeed those in the chareidi community who indeed do wonderful work for klal Yisrael. Do those who sit and learn also ever participate on a regular basis?
Your deflecting to the DL and their Rebbeim is nothing more than to deceive and demonize. Your constant theme.
"What's going to be?!" "This will mean the destruction of ...!!"
I thought you were parodying the alleged apocalyptic economic horrors up ahead on the horoscope. But then I realized that you were saying the opposite.
These say that those are paranoid and those same the same about these.
Alas, it turned out to be a rather benign analysis of what to make of the comments on Kikar Shaboss from a bunch of charedi commenters with irritating handles like מתי מבני ברק or נורמאלי who agree with Hapeles and Yated calling someone *else* a murderer. Oh well.
(To be clear, I happen to be vaccinated against Covid. I'm still alive, and am pretty sure I would be equally alive without the vaccine. I'm very much NOT interested in getting into a vaccine debate here.)
But doesn't the academic approach teach that the overall body of one's work is relevant in assessing a man's opinions? I'm more inclined to value the opinion of X on Y if I know his opinion generally to be well-reasoned and thought out, and vice versa. Covid and (separately) the Vaccines, are surely the biggest issues the world has confronted in at least the past 20 years. To your readers, your many posts on the subject were very revealing of your overall thinking, and shed much light upon your opinions.
"But doesn't the academic approach teach that the overall body of one's work is relevant in assessing a man's opinions?" Exactly. That's exactly why I'd prefer vaccine deniers to stay away from this forum.
Working for a living isn't a problem and never has been. It's that doing so in Israel necessiates army service and exposure to the modern culture. Judaism and the Jews are just not strong enough to survive it. Few can come out unaffected in a negative way. This is a reality of life that DL rabbies are ignoring because their religion is the State and Zionism. Just read them in their own words. Even when discussing the OTD problem in their society, they can't come up wuth a solution because they don't recognize the underlying problem. This is very simple.
Accepting the Theory of Evolution, just like the study of מורה נבוכים, will destroy the faith of most people. This is also very simple.
If there was something wrong with it chaleilah, he wouldn't quote from it, and certainly never use it for his very first statement in shulchan aruch.
But he did. Because he loves the Rambam and all his works, including Moreh...and he wants fools like yourself to know how much he loves Morah that he quotes it right away at rhe very beginning.
Ramah famously wrote to Maharshal to the effect that granted that one shouldn't read Aristo, but there's no problem reading what Rambam cites from Aristo. Now, how about Rambam himself, if Rama concedes it problematic to read Aristo directly, how did the Rambam do so..?
But Rambam נִּתְמַלֵּא כְּרֵסוֹ לֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר. וְלֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר הוּא לֵידַע הָאָסוּר וְהַמֻּתָּר וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶם מִשְּׁאָר הַמִּצְוֹת. -after which it becomes permitted. And Rambam quotes Aristo not for you to read Aristo without his mediation. Not Aristo's every word is verbutten, Rambam is qualified to sift out and convey the good part. Rama says that he does not endorse the parts of Aristo that Rambam never cited. (This is Rama's take. Rambam's take arguably is that you can read Aristo in entirety.)
Now here's where it gets sticky.. Rama is saying that although Rambam quotes (or 'is a big fan') of Aristo, don't you read Aristo. Parts will harm you.
And by the same token says Rama, you, reader of Siman 1 in Shulchan Aruch, who have virtually the entire Shulchan Aruch to learn till you'll be נִּתְמַלֵּא כְּרֵסוֹ לֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר. וְלֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר הוּא לֵידַע הָאָסוּר וְהַמֻּתָּר וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶם מִשְּׁאָר הַמִּצְוֹת. , I selected a citation from Moreh that's okay for you. I, Rama, who שֶׁנִּתְמַלֵּא כְּרֵסוֹ לֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר. וְלֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר הוּא לֵידַע הָאָסוּר וְהַמֻּתָּר וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶם מִשְּׁאָר הַמִּצְוֹת. read the Moreh. As for you, you must wait till you get there. But meanwhile I have a quote that's good even for you.
The sticky thing is a discrepancy about what נתמלא כריסו does for you. For Rambam it allowed him to read Aristo, for Rama, only to read Rambam. But not an insurmountable difficulty.
===
This would align with Yakov's claim that the Moreh "was never meant for the masses." You don't explicitly disagree. If you agree then we're all good.
Also you're playing the role of assertion while I'm playing the role of deflection. In which case I have less of a burden.
When are you going to stop learning Mishneh Torah of the Rambam.? How long is Israeli society going to keep you in a bubble? Something is wrong with your education if you have to hide.l
A lot of introductions are necessary for some of these topics. Without them its easy to get lost, as we unfortunately find for so many. Its not good to expose people to bad ideas, or even good ideas too early.
Do you teach your five year olds about trans ideology? What's with the bubble? Why do you have to hide?
Many people are capable of understanding Moreh which is who it is for and why Ramah quotes it in his very first comment on shulchan aruch....are there little kids that aren't ready for it or idiots that can't handle.it? Probably, but who cares.
I really dont understand you. All communities have positives and negatives, no one disputes this. And all communities have people who insist on focusing on their problems, others who deny them, and still others who acknowledge them privately, but don't like them discussed publicly. Do you think Mizrachi is any different in this? You and a certain commenter here try to hide their problems with kids going OTD, but in Alon Shvut they have public forums to discuss it. So what exactly is your point in this post and a thousand others exactly like it?
Going OTD by DL is an epidemic of major proportions and they seem to say and do everyrhing right but fail to bring the next generarion with alligeance to Torah. Wouldn't it be rational to be concerned with your own community?
Exactly. It's perfectly normal. There is no community anywhere, of any stripes, that doesn't have plusses and minuses. So I ask NS again - what exactly is his point? Although many things he personally thinks are flaws are actually features, still, what of it? They never claimed to be perfect. Surely Mizrachi doesn't claim to be perfect...does it?
On the contrary, I'm sure it does bother him. That's why we see these constant inane attacks on charedim - its a defense mechanism to deflect attention away from his own current adopted community's problems.
(I edited this to be clear that the Charedi community, of any stripe, is by no means free of defections and OTD kids. However, its undeniable that this particular problem is much more of a concern for Mizrachi/MO then Charedim/Yeshivish.)
"He didn’t observe that the rapidly growing percentage of the population that are in kollel are a cause of mass poverty and present a threat to the national economy."
They don't present a threat to the national economy. You don't know anything about economics, and your dire predictions are worthy of the frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic who stands with a megaphone at the street corner.
"He didn’t argue that traditional Judaism requires a man to work, even in a lowly profession, rather then demand charity."
They don't demand charity, they work the political system the same way you guys do. Except with Hashem's help they are much more successful, and with an increasing population are likely to be even more successful in the future.
"Nor did he point out that the Sages required a man to raise his children to be able to support themselves, and thus the charedi education system should incorporate basic secular studies."
At the risk of stating the obvious, somebody who is museum director who spends lots of time begging for donations is not supporting himself. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
"Clearly, any attempt to reverse the charedi reform to traditional Judaism is going to be a big struggle."
"And yes, this means that he thinks that there is no tzara’as for lashon hara1, no punishment for sins through the death of one's children, no famine or plague for not keeping the parshos of arayos, and no destruction of the Beis Hamikdash due to idolatry and immorality2. There is no Olam Haba and there is no Gehinom3. No beseeching God4. Asking Hashem for our needs is “manipulating spiritual entities”5 that enlightened Rationalists don’t believe in. The idea of a Relationship with Hashem is “fluffy spirituality”.6"
Yeah, your "rationalism" is not traditional Judaism. It's not Judaism at all.
Great and important article, except the last line.
DNS, you really don't get what Judaism is really about. And I promise you it is not in today's work force. This doesn't mean we shouldn't go to the workforce when necessary and this doesn't mean you can't be a proud Mekadesh Shem Shamayim in the workforce. Reb Hirsch would probably still say to spread Hashem's word there.
But if you can't understand that the world is increasingly anti-Torah and staying in the beis midrash is the only safe place for most, and that most need the beis midrash to stick with Hashem, than your whole article is actually faulty.
If you can't understand that what applies for charedim in the US where they are 0.1% of the country is not what applies when they are 30% of the country and growing, then you are not understanding the situation.
I said I liked the article. I think it was a very, very important thing to bring out. I even appreciated your tone.
The only thing I didn't like was the last line. You should really relearn the Moreh and see what Judaism is really about, if for nothing else than to just see the other side. Connecting to Hashem is a very, very hard thing to do, and the best 'shortcut' is to spend hours thinking about Him and His Torah without other interruptions. In today's climate this is nearly impossible outside the beis midrash. So despite the many, many issues, such as being leeches on society, something I don't condone (though government help I have less of an issue with, but not for now), the fact that you never take the time to also show that you appreciate the batei midrashim says a lot about the rest of your mission.
If you would spend one post, to the consternation of people like Marc Shapiro and other readers of yours, to show that you appreciate the importance of the beis midrash and connection to Hashem and you then posted twenty other posts about bettering chareidi society, you'd have a very valid point. But if you can't even acknowledge that at the end of the day in the beis midrash is where Hashem is, more than anywhere else, and spending time there is an absolutely good, fantastic thing, to me that means that even your critiques are just about unloading your hate, not trying to help.
Otherwise, really great post, and again, really important point. Things are being taken too far.
You'll have excuse those who don't went to end up being atheists for ignoring your well meaning advice. Or even learning from it, in a way perhaps unintended.
I have no problem with the workforce. But Judaism isn't *there* for most people. It is an unfortunate step away. If one is doing his hishtadlus and going to work and making an honest living and being responsible supporting a Torah family, I have the highest respect for such a person. But Hashem is still more present in the beis midrash - can you disagree?
"You're exaggerating." Perhaps, but so is Natan. Between the two extremes we'll find the balance, incidentally, closer to me.
"This does not describe Israeli society today." The world is getting crazier everyday, that is undeniable, and the beis midrash is definitely the safest place. Society is depraved, and that is no exaggeration.
You can't hide from the world.In the Bait Hamedrash learn how to live in the world.Including learning how to
understand and deal with world views that seem to differ with your religious understanding and viewpoint. On this matter there are many different opinions.
The Rambam who agreed that people need to be responsible and go to work says that it's a b'dieved as far avodas Hashem in general is concerned. And Reb Hirsch who says its lechatchila to 'live in the world', was advocating more as being the "minister of God," the role of klal Yisroel in this world, rather than just about being responsible.
I'm not sure what that has to do with the point being made. Of course if one needs to support his family, he must go to work and be responsible and do what he needs to do. Call it a mitzvah or that if he doesn't he's probably being עובר on some things.
But still, it won't necessarily help his goal of getting close to Hashem, because it is almost impossible to do so. Even around other people in the beis midrash it's difficult, but at least its a step toward not away, let alone in the workforce where he must focus on the mundane. That doesn't mean he shouldn't do what he needs to do, but it is very much a b'dieved to leave Hashem's side. See Moreh chelek 3 perek 51 at length. And many who to the workforce never again get around to sharpening their connection quite the same. The Rambam would not be happy with that.
Again, to be clear, I am discussing connecting to Hashem on a personal level. That is what a Yid is supposed to be striving for. That's what the mitzvos are all about, according to the mekubalim and according to the Rambam, only the Rambam was more open and clear about this, using simpler terms. And, especially in today's climate, it is very hard to come to outside the gemara.
What can we do but the CI in a famous (& perhaps only) conversation with the Satmar Rebi (with RS Wosner & others in attendance) said that Israel is that type of מדינה (like the SR was claiming) and that the Yeshivahs (& Kollels) are the caves.
You may have missed the irony in that statement, or maybe you're too young to remember 1997.
In any case, there are distinctions between the late 1940s (which when I presumed the alleged event took place) and today. There are two criteria at play here:
רָעִים וְחַטָּאִים and שֶׁאֵין מְנִיחִים אוֹתוֹ .
Certainly, secular society has gone worse in regards to the first criterion- see חולין צב. But contemporary secular Israeli society is far less activist in regards to the second criterion. The debate is almost exclusively about sharing the economic and defense burden, and religious coercion. There's no significant movement advocating forcing secularism down dati throats. In any case, in the late 1940s the חרדי community did not cloister themselves in "caves" en masse as advised by the רמב"ם. So obviously, the CI was engaging in exaggeration and דרוש.
Ya ya, that was either the 'Gifter slaughters Lamm on Passover' episode or the 'Svei decries Lamm as hater of G-d and OU/RCA gives Lamm a Lover of G-d award' episode.
But you're writing without any sense of context.
"There's no significant movement advocating forcing secularism down dati throats."
Literally correct but effectively false. Force isn't necessary when seduction--via the IDF--can do a better job.
I'll note that Chareidi negativity towards the draft creates an awareness among those already in the IDF of what a spiritually dangerous situation they're in, that they not let down their guard.
We live in this world and the average person has to live his life outside the Bait Hamedrash. The Torah is observed outside the Bait Hamedrash.Overwhelmingly the Torah is about being outside the Bait Hamedrash.
"Clearly, any attempt to reverse the charedi reform to traditional Judaism is going to be a big struggle."
Slifkin, even though he is an evolutionist, is too consumed by personal agendas and fails to realize that what he and his fellow professors call a 'reform' is an evolutionary adaptation of the Jewish nation. For thousands of years the nation has evolved along the lines of the first mishna in Pirkei Avos: ' הוו מתונים בדין, העמידו תלמידים הרבה ועשו סייג לתורה'. Nothing else has worked and this explains the reaction to Rabbi Leibel's speach, not its content.
In the last 200 years, perhaps more than ever, this approach has proven itself. All you have to do is to look at the rest of the society to see that. This is very simple.
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Yes. I also know about the futility of making long term predictions based on projections which assume that highly unstable factors will remain constant. See also: Malthusianism
To follow Yakov's 2 comments, I ain't no Meivin neither, and prophesying, as fearmongering, is ridiculous, but the "no work" attitude is just a cover for the "army is treif" attitude.
Hence, when Chareidim are numerous enough to actually harm the economy (I don't accept the qvetching that it's happening right now) they'll be numerous enough to legislate an Halachic Kosher army. At which point they'll join the army and the work force.
(Ah but for that the tyranny of the supreme court must be neutralized to allow majority rule.)
Alternatively, when there'll be so much בין אדם למקום performed by Chareidim and their wannabees, ונתן השם את חן העם הזה בעיני שונאיו ובעיני המלאכים הממונים על הפרנסה and all will relax.
Another ridiculous prophesy that appeared in these comments some time ago was that that the Chareidim will bring Israel to ruin in a few decades. Goodness, could anyone predict a few decades ago what Israel would look like today? Whoever couldn't do it then or did it and has egg on the face, shouldn't do it now.
You ask this as if you understand economics. You feel qualified to rebut researched articles in the secular press with positive commentary about charedim and their contributions to the economy. There is that.
I don't have an econimic plan for the State of Israel. It's not something that I understand. Let the mevins handle it, but I wont be surprised if eliminatting waste and belt tightening will be necessary in the future.
You don't have a plan for the economy, but you do for the olam hatora. Why is that? You want to just throw your responsibility on the experts while you live your carefree frum life and be "left alone".
Those that do care about the welfare of the state don't really take you guys seriously and then you complain about discrimination. Why should the likes of you get equal rights?
Why should a lion eat a zebra? Because life is an evolutionary struggle for the survival of the fittest. Many in the leadership of the State of Israel expected Judaism to disappear by now, but, unsurprisingly, it turned out to be more evolutionary fit than Zionism or Secularism.
'Why should the likes of you get equal rights?' In the evolutionary struggle for the survival of the fittest by means of natural selection some see the benefit in denying equal rights to others, just like these 'others' see the benefit in having these said rights. Charedim are the fitter ones in this particular struggle to deny them equal rights.
You know many gedolim thought that the state would not last either. They thought European Jewry would last ! They were very wrong. Guess what happened to those who stayed in Europe and didn't listen to the zionists!
It's an evolutionary struggle and no one can know what the future will bring. Rabbi Akiva supported Bar Kochba and failed, but we don't hold it against him. The gedolim failed to understand the times they were living in, but so did almost everyone else. Humanity as a whole is not a pretty picture.
Indeed. And Rav Kook thought that redemption was around the corner. אלו ואלו engaged in messianic speculation- how it's going to happen and how it's not going to happen. The Rambam got it right- concentrate (but don't obsess) on the generalities and don't speculate on the details.
I think it would be helpful to have a projection of when you believe the isreali economy will collapse based on the current trajectory. A doomsday clock if you will.
TVOL asays the shared account series about kollel families will be coming to a close The topic of finances especially those of kollel families sparked much debate as the series comes to a close we salute our kollel yooungeleit who raise the banner of Torah we encourage everyone to reach out to their rebbeim for guidance
Someone has lots of money, granting him lots of opinions. And the back of the Beis Hamedrash, the bloggers of society, the feeble-minded and uneducated, all lick their chops and rub their hands in glee.
I don’t understand how the term “traditional Judaism” applies to looking upon working or getting the necessary education, as treif. Jews historically have been part of the workforce, whether by choice or by necessity. Only a small percentage learned full time. The concept of sitting and learning full time for the masses only began to develop post WW2. The question today is whether 30%, or more, of a country not working nor getting the related necessary education, is sustainable.
Are the taxes that are taken from working people in Israel and used to subsidize kollel learning also “artificial”?
Is the army—in which those kollel learners disproportionately do not serve—that defends the (undoubtedly “artificial”) borders of the country also “artificial”?
“ Not more than 1% of world Jewry is engaged in full time learning, same as always.”. This is exatly my point re world religious Jewry חוץ לארץ.
The situation in Israel is different. The percentage of full time learners/non-workers and those who have not received the needed academic education or vocational training is much higher in Israel, and it’s growing. And so does those in poverty.
While there are individuals in the chareidi community who are taking advantage of training by governmental institutions and the private sector, opposition w/i the community will remain until chareidi leaders recognize that there is a problem.
Religious and non-religious are artificial boundaries. As are the countries. Worldwide Jewry includes Israel, and the percentage of full-time learners is dismal. If EY is the only place where more people are learning than other countries, we should at least encourage it.
You are artificially expanding the boundary to get to a figure of 1%. But your definition of the boundary is internally inconsistent because most of those people you've included in your artificially expanded boundaries do not contribute support to the 1%. So it's invalid to insist that the 1% is still a legitimate figure- when it comes to discussing economic sustainability.
When less than 1% of world Jewry is in full-time Torah study, we are not collectively in great shape. The learners do contribute to the rest of world Jewry, even if they do not recognize it. There is no Jewish nation without Torah knowledge and Torah study and a tiny percentage is holding up the whole apparatus.
Not quite. APKin was talking about economics and indeed it's inappropriate to talk about 1% of world Jewry in that regard. You actually haven't dealt with the economic question, and instead turned to the spiritual question. Both are valid issues, but you haven't addressed the economic question, you've just ignored it in order to address the spiritual question.
What you're defending is not a solution. The current Charedi model is a Torah observant minority which is a significant burden on the general economy while remaining a minority while supported by a decreasing majority- most of whom are not sufficiently Torah observant, and many are followers of the דור המבול religion.
The problem I have is that I grew up around (and descend from) fine Torah scholars, some of whom could out-learn practicing rabbis. All worked for a living. There's no doubt that the current Charedi model is a deviation.
Somehow Slifkin twists and manipulates. There is NOT a single Gadol who would ever say publicly or to the general public, learning a trade, or going out to work is bad, problematic or causes a loss of Olam Habah. When INDIVIDUALS have sought advice from Gedolim, they may have given an eitzah for that person or his children to remain learning Torah and not to learn a trade.
" There is NOT a single Gadol who would ever say publicly or to the general public, learning a trade, or going out to work is bad, problematic or causes a loss of Olam Habah. "
And yet, that's exactly message that's being expoused here in the comments. You can deny all you want, but the facts speak otherwise. Basic secular studies is discouraged, when someone wants to introduce a cheder that will include teaching a trade, they are attacked viciously.
Did RNS "twist and manipulate" the tirade coming out from הפלס and יתד? Did those papers actually imply that teaching a trade or not being a financial burden was a positive thing? Or did they condemn such ideas as being worth of לבן?
" would ever say publicly or to the general public"
Excuse my being off topic I was wondering If you ever blogged about the giant grapes 8 spies per bunch needed and a rationalist approach. If so do you have a link?
All the comments you brought relate only to the issue of sending children to a school with secular studies - I deduce from that (which I have heard from other charedi Rabbonim as well) that the point that being a charedi and working is truly not controversial.
"Clearly, any attempt to reverse the charedi reform to traditional Judaism is going to be a big struggle."
More like impossible.
Are you the Vilna Gaon now, opposing the reforming tide?
You need to step up your game. Stop being nuisance unwanted sidekick Incrediboy. Time to become super-villain Syndrome. You do realize, he loses in the end?
"What's going to be?!" "This will mean the destruction of Torah!!" seems to be the go-to line in defense of current Israeli chareidi status quo, which is of course silly and ahistorical. (And, incidentally, it's not as if the current chareidi system is producing many gedolim, either.)
Somehow (a) the daati leumi, Anglos, Sephardim, and all other frum people in Israel, (b) virtually all American frum Jews (including in the yeshiva world), and (c) most of the Jewish people throughout our entire history somehow managed to work and be Torah Jews.
It's not the work per se, it's the integration with secularists. Jews throughout our history have NOT managed to integrate with the non-Jews and remain Jewish themselves.
They don't need to integrate - see my examples. Heck, they can open their own businesses or work for other chareidim. They live in *Israel* for crying out loud. It should be easier there than anywhere else!
The demand to join the secular/secularist army is a demand to integrate. One of the primary intentions of the IDF was to be a people's army, that is a "melting pot that would create social cohesion among Israelis from diverse backgrounds and build up a national identity" -https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-739857 There is no reason to believe that has changed, and every reason to believe it hasn't. “For 75 years, the People’s Army model has proven beyond any doubt that there is not and there must not be any substitute. It is the secret of the IDF’s strength, the secret of the nation’s strength.” -Herzi Halevi
The demand to have the education controlled by the secular state is likewise a demand to integrate.
Yes, this is precisely the issue.
Integrate is not cloning. Integrate as a populous that is loyal to the State and feels a connection to other Jews.
Great point. I’ve noticed non of those in the Opposition responded.
?? H responded; neutral Y confirmed.
That's your challenge! So the "other" has to work for you!? Has to fight for you.! Find those who are willing to support you. But Chareidim have to fight in the Army. No one has to fight for them. Find religious solutions but not at the public's expense and against the public will and law.If you disagree find a country that satisfies your needs.
Nobody *has* to do anything for us. Nobody is forcing you to fight. You are welcome to not fight as well. We are saying that it is far more important to us to keep our religion than to participate in army service.
Leave the country.Follow the law.We religious people believe you can be religious with Army
Service. We agree Chareidim must must join the Army. We will not tolerate seeing soldiers chas vsholem being killed and maimed while you rest peacefully. Too bad! That's the elephant in the room that you don't talk about!
Nah, we don't need to leave the country. Go ahead, try kicking us out first.
The secularists have no right to be in Eretz Yisroel in the first place, only the Torah observant have a right to the land. The secularists are only allowed to remain in the merit of the Torah observant. If the Torah observant c"v left, the Arabs would c"v swoop down on you guys like a pack of wolves, leaving nothing.
See here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-parable-of-the-drowning-man#:~:text=But%20there%20is,thank%20him%20profusely!
We don't have to go to the Army? We do'nt go and who fights the Arabs as they invade! Hishtadlus my friend when it is convenient! The Brit with the Avot is with the Jewish people not just with the Chareidim. You haven't talked to G-d lately so you don't know and can't know and decide these matters. You think and I think, so what, and G-d decides.
The conflict in Israel for the religious: To be a נח or be an אברהם.
You live in the world that G-d have a Torah to live for. Get used to it. That is your responsibility.p
Nah, ואתם תהיו לי ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש. We are supposed to live apart from the non-Jews (which for our purposes includes Israeli secularists). Since the chareidi proportion of the population is growing much faster than the secularists, it is you guys who will have to get used to it.
You're a joke.
Remember the Chareidim are not a major party.
גם אור לגויים. To relate to and inspire the world with Torah values. The opposite of your conclusion.
Yeah, read that pasuk in context instead of like a Christian. The values of the Torah is to live apart from the goyim. הן עם לבדד ישכון
The pesukim are many,simple and straightforward proclaiming we are אור לגויים. Here are a few;
ישעיהו מט,ו
ישעיהו מב, , ז
ישעיהו ס,ג
Christian?! No
אני הה/ק
Independent from foreign values not live apart with no connection. They are בני נוח and we already see efforts to have them acknowledge this with the responsibilities it entails. As per Chabad and Harav Sherki.
So u want to live apart. W/o taking the needed precautions i.e. academics or vocational training to sustain the community, do u accept the consequences and responsibility ($$)?
They already face consequences. They have already demonstrated that they are willing to suffer poverty for the sake of the Torah.
As for your other comment, the chareidim are the ones who are doing the most kiruv by far. The "rationalist" LW DL don't even care enough to keep the Torah themselves, ק"ו trying to get others to. At best they will get their "rabbis" to say מותר לך מותר לך. And it's a misconception about Avraham, he moved away from Lot.
Y.U was the first to have a formal kiruv program before Chabad and was very successful. Some of the students eventually entered the Smicha program and became successful congregational rabbis. In your ignorance everyone who is not Chareidi is not learned nor devoted to Torah.Especially when their Torah views do not agree with yours.
“…suffer poverty.” And then play politics to get needed funds from the very institution (the medinah) despised and demeaned.
Re your 2nd comment, there are indeed those in the chareidi community who indeed do wonderful work for klal Yisrael. Do those who sit and learn also ever participate on a regular basis?
Your deflecting to the DL and their Rebbeim is nothing more than to deceive and demonize. Your constant theme.
When I first read your,
"What's going to be?!" "This will mean the destruction of ...!!"
I thought you were parodying the alleged apocalyptic economic horrors up ahead on the horoscope. But then I realized that you were saying the opposite.
These say that those are paranoid and those same the same about these.
When I first saw this post in my inbox, I got excited. I thought *you* were going to be the one accusing people of committing murder for going to weddings https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-chassidic-wedding-murders https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/mazeltov-murder-tonight
or questioning daas Fauci. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/lovely-people-who-contribute-to-deaths
Alas, it turned out to be a rather benign analysis of what to make of the comments on Kikar Shaboss from a bunch of charedi commenters with irritating handles like מתי מבני ברק or נורמאלי who agree with Hapeles and Yated calling someone *else* a murderer. Oh well.
(To be clear, I happen to be vaccinated against Covid. I'm still alive, and am pretty sure I would be equally alive without the vaccine. I'm very much NOT interested in getting into a vaccine debate here.)
Um, no one said anything about “getting into a vaccine debate here”…
Right. That's the point. I was trying to prevent my comment from unwittingly being the cause of one getting started.
Agreed it would be fruitless. Yet, the fact is it remains a permanent standing reason, in the eyes of many, to reject any opinion offered by the host.
Honestly, I'd be much happier if vaccine deniers just stay away from this forum.
But doesn't the academic approach teach that the overall body of one's work is relevant in assessing a man's opinions? I'm more inclined to value the opinion of X on Y if I know his opinion generally to be well-reasoned and thought out, and vice versa. Covid and (separately) the Vaccines, are surely the biggest issues the world has confronted in at least the past 20 years. To your readers, your many posts on the subject were very revealing of your overall thinking, and shed much light upon your opinions.
"But doesn't the academic approach teach that the overall body of one's work is relevant in assessing a man's opinions?" Exactly. That's exactly why I'd prefer vaccine deniers to stay away from this forum.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rats-rabbis-and-racists/comment/17487457
Working for a living isn't a problem and never has been. It's that doing so in Israel necessiates army service and exposure to the modern culture. Judaism and the Jews are just not strong enough to survive it. Few can come out unaffected in a negative way. This is a reality of life that DL rabbies are ignoring because their religion is the State and Zionism. Just read them in their own words. Even when discussing the OTD problem in their society, they can't come up wuth a solution because they don't recognize the underlying problem. This is very simple.
Accepting the Theory of Evolution, just like the study of מורה נבוכים, will destroy the faith of most people. This is also very simple.
Studying Moreh will destroy faith? The first statement of Rama in Shulchan Aruch is straight from Moreh. You are a classic ignoramus.
What happened to Solomon Maimon?
It did to many. The Rambam in his Hakdama acknowledges this point. See https://rationalistjudaism2.substack.com/p/in-defence-of-the-rambam
And I'd recommend reading Letter 18 of R' SR Hirsch's "Nineteen Letters"
Rambam does not say that his works causes people to lose faith, silly. He says it may displease people, and he doesn't care.
In that line I quoted in my post specifically, correct. But elsewhere he acknowledges that it can lead to worse.
Can I ask you why would he care so much to write that really long Hakdama if was just a worry of 'displeasing' the (uninformed) public?
So you linked to something to prove your point but then admit that it's not there, now its somewhere else...so why did you link to it?
It's nowhere other than in your imagination and it's annoying arguing with a brick.
I linked the post because it mentions the idea I was discussing, not specifically for that quote. Incidentally, Moses Mendelssohn is a great example. (And this may be another: https://www.amazon.com/Challenge-Creation-Encounter-Cosmology-Evolution/dp/9652295949 ;)
But if I should have been more clear that I wasn't referring to that specific quote, I apologize. You got me.
For most people. It was never meant for the masses.
'The first statement of Rama in Shulchan Aruch is straight from Moreh.'
Lolol. What is this supposed to prove?
That Rama was a big fan of Moreh obviously.
If there was something wrong with it chaleilah, he wouldn't quote from it, and certainly never use it for his very first statement in shulchan aruch.
But he did. Because he loves the Rambam and all his works, including Moreh...and he wants fools like yourself to know how much he loves Morah that he quotes it right away at rhe very beginning.
https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_of_Remah.7.1?lang=bi
Ramah famously wrote to Maharshal to the effect that granted that one shouldn't read Aristo, but there's no problem reading what Rambam cites from Aristo. Now, how about Rambam himself, if Rama concedes it problematic to read Aristo directly, how did the Rambam do so..?
But Rambam נִּתְמַלֵּא כְּרֵסוֹ לֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר. וְלֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר הוּא לֵידַע הָאָסוּר וְהַמֻּתָּר וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶם מִשְּׁאָר הַמִּצְוֹת. -after which it becomes permitted. And Rambam quotes Aristo not for you to read Aristo without his mediation. Not Aristo's every word is verbutten, Rambam is qualified to sift out and convey the good part. Rama says that he does not endorse the parts of Aristo that Rambam never cited. (This is Rama's take. Rambam's take arguably is that you can read Aristo in entirety.)
Now here's where it gets sticky.. Rama is saying that although Rambam quotes (or 'is a big fan') of Aristo, don't you read Aristo. Parts will harm you.
And by the same token says Rama, you, reader of Siman 1 in Shulchan Aruch, who have virtually the entire Shulchan Aruch to learn till you'll be נִּתְמַלֵּא כְּרֵסוֹ לֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר. וְלֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר הוּא לֵידַע הָאָסוּר וְהַמֻּתָּר וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶם מִשְּׁאָר הַמִּצְוֹת. , I selected a citation from Moreh that's okay for you. I, Rama, who שֶׁנִּתְמַלֵּא כְּרֵסוֹ לֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר. וְלֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר הוּא לֵידַע הָאָסוּר וְהַמֻּתָּר וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶם מִשְּׁאָר הַמִּצְוֹת. read the Moreh. As for you, you must wait till you get there. But meanwhile I have a quote that's good even for you.
The sticky thing is a discrepancy about what נתמלא כריסו does for you. For Rambam it allowed him to read Aristo, for Rama, only to read Rambam. But not an insurmountable difficulty.
===
This would align with Yakov's claim that the Moreh "was never meant for the masses." You don't explicitly disagree. If you agree then we're all good.
Also you're playing the role of assertion while I'm playing the role of deflection. In which case I have less of a burden.
Are you religious? Is so, why?
When are you going to stop learning Mishneh Torah of the Rambam.? How long is Israeli society going to keep you in a bubble? Something is wrong with your education if you have to hide.l
A lot of introductions are necessary for some of these topics. Without them its easy to get lost, as we unfortunately find for so many. Its not good to expose people to bad ideas, or even good ideas too early.
Do you teach your five year olds about trans ideology? What's with the bubble? Why do you have to hide?
Many people are capable of understanding Moreh which is who it is for and why Ramah quotes it in his very first comment on shulchan aruch....are there little kids that aren't ready for it or idiots that can't handle.it? Probably, but who cares.
Uh, one of the first things the early Maskilim (forerunners of the MODOX) did was to reprint the Moreh which had been out of print for centuries.
As we know, the movement didn’t age well.
Believe me Mendelssohn was no little kid or idiot.
I really dont understand you. All communities have positives and negatives, no one disputes this. And all communities have people who insist on focusing on their problems, others who deny them, and still others who acknowledge them privately, but don't like them discussed publicly. Do you think Mizrachi is any different in this? You and a certain commenter here try to hide their problems with kids going OTD, but in Alon Shvut they have public forums to discuss it. So what exactly is your point in this post and a thousand others exactly like it?
Going OTD by DL is an epidemic of major proportions and they seem to say and do everyrhing right but fail to bring the next generarion with alligeance to Torah. Wouldn't it be rational to be concerned with your own community?
Exactly. It's perfectly normal. There is no community anywhere, of any stripes, that doesn't have plusses and minuses. So I ask NS again - what exactly is his point? Although many things he personally thinks are flaws are actually features, still, what of it? They never claimed to be perfect. Surely Mizrachi doesn't claim to be perfect...does it?
Presumably Natan doesn't see anything wrong with the next generation going OTD. So they'll die at 86 instead of 87, big deal.
(Assuming you read Natan's brilliant and thought provoking series "why Judaism?")
On the contrary, I'm sure it does bother him. That's why we see these constant inane attacks on charedim - its a defense mechanism to deflect attention away from his own current adopted community's problems.
(I edited this to be clear that the Charedi community, of any stripe, is by no means free of defections and OTD kids. However, its undeniable that this particular problem is much more of a concern for Mizrachi/MO then Charedim/Yeshivish.)
"He didn’t observe that the rapidly growing percentage of the population that are in kollel are a cause of mass poverty and present a threat to the national economy."
They don't present a threat to the national economy. You don't know anything about economics, and your dire predictions are worthy of the frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic who stands with a megaphone at the street corner.
"He didn’t argue that traditional Judaism requires a man to work, even in a lowly profession, rather then demand charity."
They don't demand charity, they work the political system the same way you guys do. Except with Hashem's help they are much more successful, and with an increasing population are likely to be even more successful in the future.
"Nor did he point out that the Sages required a man to raise his children to be able to support themselves, and thus the charedi education system should incorporate basic secular studies."
At the risk of stating the obvious, somebody who is museum director who spends lots of time begging for donations is not supporting himself. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
"Clearly, any attempt to reverse the charedi reform to traditional Judaism is going to be a big struggle."
What traditional Judaism are you talking about? This one? https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/qanon-natan
"And yes, this means that he thinks that there is no tzara’as for lashon hara1, no punishment for sins through the death of one's children, no famine or plague for not keeping the parshos of arayos, and no destruction of the Beis Hamikdash due to idolatry and immorality2. There is no Olam Haba and there is no Gehinom3. No beseeching God4. Asking Hashem for our needs is “manipulating spiritual entities”5 that enlightened Rationalists don’t believe in. The idea of a Relationship with Hashem is “fluffy spirituality”.6"
Yeah, your "rationalism" is not traditional Judaism. It's not Judaism at all.
"You don't know anything about economics"
That's a rather extreme statement.
"They don't demand charity, they work the political system the same way you guys do."
In other words, they demand charity.
"In other words, they demand charity."
By that token, you guys demand charity also. So we're good, right?
"you guys demand charity also."
What are you talking about?f
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-rabbi-who-murders-gedolim/comment/17658249
30% and growing of Israel will always be beggars living off charity. That is a higher parasite load than even a very healthy organism can survive
Is it higher than the nudnik load that I must endure from your stupid comments?
“Nudnik load” 😂
Good one.
In an age when children are taught that trans-sexuals are normal, looking to find faults with Charedi society seems laughably absurd.
Why not find faults with both?
Because your society also has problems, as does mine, and it just becomes a pointless exercise in קשט עצמך אוח"כ קשט אחרים.
"your society also has problems"
"children are taught that trans-sexuals are normal,"
You don't know what your talking about.
Great and important article, except the last line.
DNS, you really don't get what Judaism is really about. And I promise you it is not in today's work force. This doesn't mean we shouldn't go to the workforce when necessary and this doesn't mean you can't be a proud Mekadesh Shem Shamayim in the workforce. Reb Hirsch would probably still say to spread Hashem's word there.
But if you can't understand that the world is increasingly anti-Torah and staying in the beis midrash is the only safe place for most, and that most need the beis midrash to stick with Hashem, than your whole article is actually faulty.
If you can't understand that what applies for charedim in the US where they are 0.1% of the country is not what applies when they are 30% of the country and growing, then you are not understanding the situation.
I said I liked the article. I think it was a very, very important thing to bring out. I even appreciated your tone.
The only thing I didn't like was the last line. You should really relearn the Moreh and see what Judaism is really about, if for nothing else than to just see the other side. Connecting to Hashem is a very, very hard thing to do, and the best 'shortcut' is to spend hours thinking about Him and His Torah without other interruptions. In today's climate this is nearly impossible outside the beis midrash. So despite the many, many issues, such as being leeches on society, something I don't condone (though government help I have less of an issue with, but not for now), the fact that you never take the time to also show that you appreciate the batei midrashim says a lot about the rest of your mission.
If you would spend one post, to the consternation of people like Marc Shapiro and other readers of yours, to show that you appreciate the importance of the beis midrash and connection to Hashem and you then posted twenty other posts about bettering chareidi society, you'd have a very valid point. But if you can't even acknowledge that at the end of the day in the beis midrash is where Hashem is, more than anywhere else, and spending time there is an absolutely good, fantastic thing, to me that means that even your critiques are just about unloading your hate, not trying to help.
Otherwise, really great post, and again, really important point. Things are being taken too far.
The best shortcut to connecting with hashem is studying math and science, not ancient texts
I bet the second best is reading free thoughts from a self described freethinker.
You'll have excuse those who don't went to end up being atheists for ignoring your well meaning advice. Or even learning from it, in a way perhaps unintended.
"DNS, you really don't get what Judaism is really about. And I promise you it is not in today's work force. "
Judaism is not in the workforce? What are you talking about!?
"But if you can't understand that the world is increasingly anti-Torah and staying in the beis midrash is the only safe place for most"
I've never been in an office that was a cesspool of the anti-Torah culture you refer to. You're exaggerating.
In any case, there is a halachic model for avoid a corrupt society that refused the allow people to live a life of righteousness:
וְאִם הָיוּ רָעִים וְחַטָּאִים שֶׁאֵין מְנִיחִים אוֹתוֹ לֵישֵׁב בַּמְּדִינָה אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן נִתְעָרֵב עִמָּהֶן וְנוֹהֵג בְּמִנְהָגָם הָרַע יֵצֵא לַמְּעָרוֹת וְלַחֲוָחִים וְלַמִּדְבָּרוֹת.
This does not describe Israeli society today.
I have no problem with the workforce. But Judaism isn't *there* for most people. It is an unfortunate step away. If one is doing his hishtadlus and going to work and making an honest living and being responsible supporting a Torah family, I have the highest respect for such a person. But Hashem is still more present in the beis midrash - can you disagree?
"You're exaggerating." Perhaps, but so is Natan. Between the two extremes we'll find the balance, incidentally, closer to me.
"This does not describe Israeli society today." The world is getting crazier everyday, that is undeniable, and the beis midrash is definitely the safest place. Society is depraved, and that is no exaggeration.
You can't hide from the world.In the Bait Hamedrash learn how to live in the world.Including learning how to
understand and deal with world views that seem to differ with your religious understanding and viewpoint. On this matter there are many different opinions.
The Rambam who agreed that people need to be responsible and go to work says that it's a b'dieved as far avodas Hashem in general is concerned. And Reb Hirsch who says its lechatchila to 'live in the world', was advocating more as being the "minister of God," the role of klal Yisroel in this world, rather than just about being responsible.
"I have no problem with the workforce. But Judaism isn't *there* for most people."
It's a קיום of the חיוב to support one's family. As such, it is Judaism. And in Israel, it's a קיום of ישוב ארץ ישראל.
We're not Catholics.
I'm not sure what that has to do with the point being made. Of course if one needs to support his family, he must go to work and be responsible and do what he needs to do. Call it a mitzvah or that if he doesn't he's probably being עובר on some things.
But still, it won't necessarily help his goal of getting close to Hashem, because it is almost impossible to do so. Even around other people in the beis midrash it's difficult, but at least its a step toward not away, let alone in the workforce where he must focus on the mundane. That doesn't mean he shouldn't do what he needs to do, but it is very much a b'dieved to leave Hashem's side. See Moreh chelek 3 perek 51 at length. And many who to the workforce never again get around to sharpening their connection quite the same. The Rambam would not be happy with that.
Again, to be clear, I am discussing connecting to Hashem on a personal level. That is what a Yid is supposed to be striving for. That's what the mitzvos are all about, according to the mekubalim and according to the Rambam, only the Rambam was more open and clear about this, using simpler terms. And, especially in today's climate, it is very hard to come to outside the gemara.
Are we actually arguing?
Great source btw!
דוד, please consider not replying to yourself lest the thread continue on the next page eventually. But they appear in the wrong order? -Number them.
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[EDIT] Or make an edit/PS in the original comment something like this.
Thank you.
"But they appear in the wrong order? -Number them."
The Substack thread system is a crime against humanity. (I know that's unrelated to anything.)
(I already pressed the "like" button. I just want to add that you expressed it deliciously!)
Right, because you know a lot about Hashem and His will.
"וְאִם הָיוּ רָעִים וְחַטָּאִים שֶׁאֵין מְנִיחִים אוֹתוֹ לֵישֵׁב בַּמְּדִינָה אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן נִתְעָרֵב עִמָּהֶן וְנוֹהֵג בְּמִנְהָגָם הָרַע יֵצֵא לַמְּעָרוֹת וְלַחֲוָחִים וְלַמִּדְבָּרוֹת.
This does not describe Israeli society today."
What can we do but the CI in a famous (& perhaps only) conversation with the Satmar Rebi (with RS Wosner & others in attendance) said that Israel is that type of מדינה (like the SR was claiming) and that the Yeshivahs (& Kollels) are the caves.
" Yeshivahs (& Kollels) are the caves."
You may have missed the irony in that statement, or maybe you're too young to remember 1997.
In any case, there are distinctions between the late 1940s (which when I presumed the alleged event took place) and today. There are two criteria at play here:
רָעִים וְחַטָּאִים and שֶׁאֵין מְנִיחִים אוֹתוֹ .
Certainly, secular society has gone worse in regards to the first criterion- see חולין צב. But contemporary secular Israeli society is far less activist in regards to the second criterion. The debate is almost exclusively about sharing the economic and defense burden, and religious coercion. There's no significant movement advocating forcing secularism down dati throats. In any case, in the late 1940s the חרדי community did not cloister themselves in "caves" en masse as advised by the רמב"ם. So obviously, the CI was engaging in exaggeration and דרוש.
Briefly, CI was paskening from his drush.
What's "1997"?
R Wosner repeated the "alleged event" throughout his lifetime to hundreds or thousands of people.
I'll try to address the other parts of your comment later with an EDIT in this one.
1997 was when parts of the Charedi world got upset over calling the בית מדרש a cave.
Ya ya, that was either the 'Gifter slaughters Lamm on Passover' episode or the 'Svei decries Lamm as hater of G-d and OU/RCA gives Lamm a Lover of G-d award' episode.
But you're writing without any sense of context.
"There's no significant movement advocating forcing secularism down dati throats."
Literally correct but effectively false. Force isn't necessary when seduction--via the IDF--can do a better job.
I'll note that Chareidi negativity towards the draft creates an awareness among those already in the IDF of what a spiritually dangerous situation they're in, that they not let down their guard.
We live in this world and the average person has to live his life outside the Bait Hamedrash. The Torah is observed outside the Bait Hamedrash.Overwhelmingly the Torah is about being outside the Bait Hamedrash.
Agreed.
"Clearly, any attempt to reverse the charedi reform to traditional Judaism is going to be a big struggle."
Slifkin, even though he is an evolutionist, is too consumed by personal agendas and fails to realize that what he and his fellow professors call a 'reform' is an evolutionary adaptation of the Jewish nation. For thousands of years the nation has evolved along the lines of the first mishna in Pirkei Avos: ' הוו מתונים בדין, העמידו תלמידים הרבה ועשו סייג לתורה'. Nothing else has worked and this explains the reaction to Rabbi Leibel's speach, not its content.
In the last 200 years, perhaps more than ever, this approach has proven itself. All you have to do is to look at the rest of the society to see that. This is very simple.
And what is your economic plan for the State of Israel?
The same plan as your zoo funding model. Adopt-A-Kollel. Fundraising trips. Cringey letters begging for donations.
Adopt-A-Critter.
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You do know the distinction between micro and macro-economics.
Yes. I also know about the futility of making long term predictions based on projections which assume that highly unstable factors will remain constant. See also: Malthusianism
As somebody wise once said, God invented economists in order to make astrologers look good.
To follow Yakov's 2 comments, I ain't no Meivin neither, and prophesying, as fearmongering, is ridiculous, but the "no work" attitude is just a cover for the "army is treif" attitude.
Hence, when Chareidim are numerous enough to actually harm the economy (I don't accept the qvetching that it's happening right now) they'll be numerous enough to legislate an Halachic Kosher army. At which point they'll join the army and the work force.
(Ah but for that the tyranny of the supreme court must be neutralized to allow majority rule.)
Alternatively, when there'll be so much בין אדם למקום performed by Chareidim and their wannabees, ונתן השם את חן העם הזה בעיני שונאיו ובעיני המלאכים הממונים על הפרנסה and all will relax.
Another ridiculous prophesy that appeared in these comments some time ago was that that the Chareidim will bring Israel to ruin in a few decades. Goodness, could anyone predict a few decades ago what Israel would look like today? Whoever couldn't do it then or did it and has egg on the face, shouldn't do it now.
So a timeline please, like Moshe says.
You ask this as if you understand economics. You feel qualified to rebut researched articles in the secular press with positive commentary about charedim and their contributions to the economy. There is that.
There are no such articles.
Yes there are, liar, and you commented on it.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-live-off-state-really-really
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-do-israels-haredim-really-live-off-the-state-1001359942
That is not a "researched article." it's a charedi-authored distortion, which I had rebutted by someone who is actually qualified in this topic.
"their contributions"
Do you mean "net contribution"?
Correcting your betters in this manner is rather pathetic. Does it change the meaning? No. It just clutters the conversation.
"betters"
A flerfer is not better.
"Does it change the meaning?"
Yes it does. People on the dole, pay taxes too. They are contributors, but not net contributors.
I don't have an econimic plan for the State of Israel. It's not something that I understand. Let the mevins handle it, but I wont be surprised if eliminatting waste and belt tightening will be necessary in the future.
You don't have a plan for the economy, but you do for the olam hatora. Why is that? You want to just throw your responsibility on the experts while you live your carefree frum life and be "left alone".
Those that do care about the welfare of the state don't really take you guys seriously and then you complain about discrimination. Why should the likes of you get equal rights?
Why should a lion eat a zebra? Because life is an evolutionary struggle for the survival of the fittest. Many in the leadership of the State of Israel expected Judaism to disappear by now, but, unsurprisingly, it turned out to be more evolutionary fit than Zionism or Secularism.
'Why should the likes of you get equal rights?' In the evolutionary struggle for the survival of the fittest by means of natural selection some see the benefit in denying equal rights to others, just like these 'others' see the benefit in having these said rights. Charedim are the fitter ones in this particular struggle to deny them equal rights.
"Charedim are the fitter ones in this particular struggle"
Not an accurate analogy to evolution.
You know many gedolim thought that the state would not last either. They thought European Jewry would last ! They were very wrong. Guess what happened to those who stayed in Europe and didn't listen to the zionists!
It's an evolutionary struggle and no one can know what the future will bring. Rabbi Akiva supported Bar Kochba and failed, but we don't hold it against him. The gedolim failed to understand the times they were living in, but so did almost everyone else. Humanity as a whole is not a pretty picture.
Indeed. And Rav Kook thought that redemption was around the corner. אלו ואלו engaged in messianic speculation- how it's going to happen and how it's not going to happen. The Rambam got it right- concentrate (but don't obsess) on the generalities and don't speculate on the details.
And who exactly will those mavens be if no one learns economics?
I think it would be helpful to have a projection of when you believe the isreali economy will collapse based on the current trajectory. A doomsday clock if you will.
It depends on a few factors, primarily how long they will be able to stay in the coalition.
Then forever.
No it hasn't. Everyone else has to give them money!
In related news
TVOL asays the shared account series about kollel families will be coming to a close The topic of finances especially those of kollel families sparked much debate as the series comes to a close we salute our kollel yooungeleit who raise the banner of Torah we encourage everyone to reach out to their rebbeim for guidance
לא לחנם הלך הזרזיר אצל העורב אלא מפני שהוא מינו
Someone has lots of money, granting him lots of opinions. And the back of the Beis Hamedrash, the bloggers of society, the feeble-minded and uneducated, all lick their chops and rub their hands in glee.
Perfect shiduch.
you are a weirdo.
Why, thank you so kindly.
Mine to yours too.
anytime weirdo.
I don’t understand how the term “traditional Judaism” applies to looking upon working or getting the necessary education, as treif. Jews historically have been part of the workforce, whether by choice or by necessity. Only a small percentage learned full time. The concept of sitting and learning full time for the masses only began to develop post WW2. The question today is whether 30%, or more, of a country not working nor getting the related necessary education, is sustainable.
It is still a small percentage of the nation
Artificial boundaries, such as countries or cultures should not play a role.
Not more than 1% of world Jewry is engaged in full time learning, same as always.
Countries are “artificial”, eh?
Are the taxes that are taken from working people in Israel and used to subsidize kollel learning also “artificial”?
Is the army—in which those kollel learners disproportionately do not serve—that defends the (undoubtedly “artificial”) borders of the country also “artificial”?
“ Not more than 1% of world Jewry is engaged in full time learning, same as always.”. This is exatly my point re world religious Jewry חוץ לארץ.
The situation in Israel is different. The percentage of full time learners/non-workers and those who have not received the needed academic education or vocational training is much higher in Israel, and it’s growing. And so does those in poverty.
While there are individuals in the chareidi community who are taking advantage of training by governmental institutions and the private sector, opposition w/i the community will remain until chareidi leaders recognize that there is a problem.
I answered your point already.
Religious and non-religious are artificial boundaries. As are the countries. Worldwide Jewry includes Israel, and the percentage of full-time learners is dismal. If EY is the only place where more people are learning than other countries, we should at least encourage it.
You are artificially expanding the boundary to get to a figure of 1%. But your definition of the boundary is internally inconsistent because most of those people you've included in your artificially expanded boundaries do not contribute support to the 1%. So it's invalid to insist that the 1% is still a legitimate figure- when it comes to discussing economic sustainability.
No boundaries. All Jews, that's all.
The discussion was 'traditional Judaism'.
When less than 1% of world Jewry is in full-time Torah study, we are not collectively in great shape. The learners do contribute to the rest of world Jewry, even if they do not recognize it. There is no Jewish nation without Torah knowledge and Torah study and a tiny percentage is holding up the whole apparatus.
So the Jew, who works and learns Torah, but not full-time, is not counted.
The discussion was 'traditional Judaism'.
Not quite. APKin was talking about economics and indeed it's inappropriate to talk about 1% of world Jewry in that regard. You actually haven't dealt with the economic question, and instead turned to the spiritual question. Both are valid issues, but you haven't addressed the economic question, you've just ignored it in order to address the spiritual question.
What you're defending is not a solution. The current Charedi model is a Torah observant minority which is a significant burden on the general economy while remaining a minority while supported by a decreasing majority- most of whom are not sufficiently Torah observant, and many are followers of the דור המבול religion.
The problem I have is that I grew up around (and descend from) fine Torah scholars, some of whom could out-learn practicing rabbis. All worked for a living. There's no doubt that the current Charedi model is a deviation.
Somehow Slifkin twists and manipulates. There is NOT a single Gadol who would ever say publicly or to the general public, learning a trade, or going out to work is bad, problematic or causes a loss of Olam Habah. When INDIVIDUALS have sought advice from Gedolim, they may have given an eitzah for that person or his children to remain learning Torah and not to learn a trade.
" There is NOT a single Gadol who would ever say publicly or to the general public, learning a trade, or going out to work is bad, problematic or causes a loss of Olam Habah. "
And yet, that's exactly message that's being expoused here in the comments. You can deny all you want, but the facts speak otherwise. Basic secular studies is discouraged, when someone wants to introduce a cheder that will include teaching a trade, they are attacked viciously.
Did RNS "twist and manipulate" the tirade coming out from הפלס and יתד? Did those papers actually imply that teaching a trade or not being a financial burden was a positive thing? Or did they condemn such ideas as being worth of לבן?
" would ever say publicly or to the general public"
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Rabbi Slifkin,
Excuse my being off topic I was wondering If you ever blogged about the giant grapes 8 spies per bunch needed and a rationalist approach. If so do you have a link?
Shlomo
We are blessed to still have the likes of him among us. All is not lost!
Welcome back!
All the comments you brought relate only to the issue of sending children to a school with secular studies - I deduce from that (which I have heard from other charedi Rabbonim as well) that the point that being a charedi and working is truly not controversial.
"Clearly, any attempt to reverse the charedi reform to traditional Judaism is going to be a big struggle."
More like impossible.
Are you the Vilna Gaon now, opposing the reforming tide?
You need to step up your game. Stop being nuisance unwanted sidekick Incrediboy. Time to become super-villain Syndrome. You do realize, he loses in the end?