I’m going to experiment again with allowing unpaid subscribers to comment. Comments that are personal, repetitive, unrelated to the post, or reflect a lack of interest in understanding the post, will probably be deleted and will make me less likely to open up the comments section to unpaid subscribers in future.
The fact that another population which calls itself religious (which is composed of some truly religious communities, but mostly secular dati-lite like Slifkin) participates in a war on the Torah does not make it any less of a war on the Torah.
The secular lites presumably know they are fighting the Torah and are doing it with zest, just like Slifkin himself, while the religious chardalim are unfortunately acting in the role of useful idiots for the seculars. That's the disadvantage of being DL, you are more attached to secularism than Judaism.
What gets me most is the selfish attitude of total entitlement. Charedim have to be exempt from the obligations that everyone else has, have to be paid for it, and if anyone objects, it must be because they hate Torah.
Which selfish attitude of total entitlement? Your selfish attitude of total entitlement, that you deserve the land without keeping the Torah? While waging war on Hashem and His Torah? Sounds pretty selfish and entitled.
So aside from lacking reading comprehension, you're also unable to respond to a point and have to try to switch to a different point. You're doing an amazing job of illustrating how empty your position is.
Neither through work, nor education to become employable, nor through being willing to put their bodies between their loved ones and deadly peril. These are basic obligations of all able bodied Jews and fundamental to all human societies
What was this word salad? It is only through the merits of the Torah scholars that your pathetic efforts are worth anything at all. Without them there would be no way you could live in the land because of your wickedness.
What exactly are he merits of Torah Scholars — how do those merits work and how are the merits allocated? Who are you accusing of wickedness and what exactly are their depraved iniquities?
With all due respect… this is an inappropriate and dishonest comparison.
No one advocates that Palestinians should convert to Judaism. Not on their side and not on our side.
However… the Chareidim believe that their approach to Yiddishkeit is the “correct” one. Meaning — If their truly believe in Ahavas Yisroel, then they should aspire that all Jews become Chareidi. Hence… if that were to happen, under the current/former status quo there would be no army, a hence no State. Period.
On the other hand… if Chareidim believe that their is the correct approach Yiddishkeit and have no interest in other Jews adopting a similar lifestyle, then by definition they are a separatist group who believe that their community should be supported militarily and otherwise the majority, without contributing their part to broader society.
In the latter scenario, the Chareidim are treating the State of Israel the way that most Jews of Eastern European descent treated their countries of residence, be they Poland, Russia, etc. If that is the case, then the Chareidim do not subscribe to the basic notions of Israel as a Jewish state and see the rest of the Jewish population of Israel - secular, Mesorati, Dati Leumi, and the handful of Chareidim who serve - as akin to the host populations of those non-Jewish countries.
So what are you suggesting? That the Chareidim need to have a special status - militarily exempt - in the Jewish State, or the Chareidim do not see the Jewish nature of Israel as legitimate, and therefore the equivalent of a non-Jewish regime?
Speak for yourself. I definitely advocate that Palestinians convert to Judaism, so that Israel will have some peace. You're the one who's being dishonest, inventing an imaginary scenario and pretending that it's somehow an argument for something.
You advocate that all Palestinians convert to Judaism? Really? Based on what Halachic principle?
And you call me dishonest…
Do you, Rabbi Moosehunter, believe in Zionism? Or is the State of Israel simply an “inconvenient fact” that the Chareidi world needs to negotiate?
You seem to forget —- many people who speak out on this issue grew up within the Chareidi/ Yeshivish world. We know the arguments. We may have made them at one time. And so we also understand the separatist/ fundamentalist mindset that sits behind the arguments.
All I can say - with true love (in the spirit of Ahavas Yisrael, all of Yisrael including the Chareidi world - is that 2024 is not 1948. Not in terms of population or economy. The world changes, and all communities must consider the implications of those changes.
Every bite of food you eat and every breath you take is through the sacrifice of better men and women than yourself. You cannot even stor yourself to express a hint of gratitude
Every dumb comment you post on the Internet is through the efforts of millions of better people than yourself to whom you never expressed a hint of gratitude to. How can you even go to sleep at night?
You aren't very good at this. Your "zingers" come across as desperate, stupid copies of what brighter people have said. MY daily bread isn't stolen from the children of people I scorn whom I should be grateful to. I don't insult soldiers but demand they die for me. Learn to earn your bread by the sweat of your brow as we were instructed by Hashem. When brave men and women are willing to die for you honor them and tell your own children to do the same thing.
Here we go again, this guy "Crafty Yid" responds. You plead "express a hint of gratitude, for those who protect you", this guy crawls out from under his shtender in some yeshiva,, and responds - YOU don't express gratitude with your every dumb comment.........
AND YOU STILL ANSWER THIS GUY??
I stopped reading at this point, from here it is a waste of time. What value does Crafty Yid bring to the table.
The only war on Torah is waged by Hamas and Hezbollah who are trying to destroy Klal Yisroel. It's clear that the intentions of the government who are trying to draft Charedim are doing it in an effort to make sure we have enough soldiers to combat a common enemy, and to ease the burden on the current soldiers who are suffering and sacrificing immensely as they stand in between us and our genocidal enemies. You may want to argue that despite all this, you don't think Charedim should have to serve for reason a, b, and c. But to mischaracterize the other side as a "war on the Torah" as if the goal was to destroy Yahadus or minimize Talmud Torah is a gross sheker. If you need to resort to lies to support your side, you must not have a lot of confidence in your position in the first place.
It's clear the intentions of the secular and the secular-lite are to destroy the Torah, and have been for the longest time. The seculars have shown many times that it is the Torah that they hate, even leaving the chareidim aside. And if they really just wanted to ease the burden on the current soldiers, they would have taken the thousands of post-yeshiva chareidim who signed up. And if it was just about the current war, they wouldn't be trying to cancel the Torahso Umnaso forever. Obviously, it is a war on the Torah by enemies of the Torah.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. But I think you know deep down that that's not what's happening. And you do what you need to do to defend a position that you don't really believe is defensible.
It doesn't help me sleep at night knowing that my secular Jewish brothers are engaged in a war against Hashem and His Torah...Tamuz, such a fitting month...😭😭😭
You are not connected with reality. This generation of "non-religious" has been the most open to יהדות that we have seen in modern times. And when they come home, there is going to be a hitorerut that is going to dwarf what happened in '67 and '73. The only anti-religious young people I know are the ex-haredim.
What's going to slide after the war is the idea of Torah learning by a particular hereditary class, full of scorn for everyone else.
False. There is no war against the Torah. The Yeshivot are not being shuttered. Cutting funds is not war, and funds are not being cut from Yeshivot that include the full gamut of Torah obligations in their curriculum.
"Do you personally know the author of the blog and monitor his observance of the mitzvot 24/7? Did you do this for all other Israeli Jews? Have you been able to check every Haredi regarding the fulfillment of their mitzvot? How precisely do you judge — by quantity, by Humrot? It's evident that you haven't scrutinized every Jew in the Land of Israel. Yet, that doesn't hinder you from harshly judging. The law condemns such behavior severely. Given that you have time, there is a book titled "Guarding the Tongue," "Shemirat haLashon." Study it diligently, and in your studies, you will naturally start to implement what it teaches, if you are an observant Jew and not the Satan. There are mitzvahs to perform and many prohibitions to observe. For now, refrain from unjustly passing judgment on others. Such conduct aligns with the role of the devil, and you must avoid stepping into his shoes."
Your discourse is canceling the Torah, Bitul Torah. If you have energy and time, what are you doing on the Internet and writing things that need thought? Study Torah!
Your posts are normally interesting and well thought out, but giving people with opposing ideas the opportunity to respond if also an important part of the discussion.
I often find the posts of people opposed to your views as illuminating and interesting as your post, and gives me a better understanding of what people in the "non-rationalist" camp think.
Keeping comments open makes your Blog 1000 times more interesting
While I understand what you are saying, I must disagree. Most of the filthy language I read on this blog come from the people who hate Rabbi Slifkin. Why they are here, I do not know. And I would just as soon see them disappear.
"Comments that are personal, repetitive, unrelated to the post, or reflect a lack of interest in understanding the post, will probably be deleted and will make me less likely to open up the comments section to unpaid subscribers in future."
I don't want to be repetitive, so I'll just note that it's a pity that charedim aren't defending their right to eat chametz on Pesach. If they were, you'd be so much more understanding of their plight. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-chametz-blitz
But you do want to. You just wish it were the first time again.
What you might be attempting to claim is that coercion is counter-productive. Perhaps, but subsidizing non-compliance is also counter-productive. But between coercion and subsidies there's a middle path: Cutting subsidies and rewarding subsidies those institutions who voluntarily comply.
"If you want to solve the economic problem, the most obvious solution is to exempt charedim from the draft, and couple that with cutting subsidies, especially ones which incentivize unemployment."
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Natan Slifkin
Feb 13
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How, in a country based on law and equality, do you say that the draft is obligatory for some but not others?
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Garvin
Feb 13
Ask the Arabs.
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Garvin
Feb 13
Frankly, you can also ask the women. They scream "equality", but they seem pretty quiet when it comes to their own minimalist draft requirements. Or hostage rescuing preferences.
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Shaul Shapira
Shaul’s Substack
Feb 13
"How, in a country based on law and equality, do you say that the draft is obligatory for some but not others?"
This is why I post links. You keep repeating the same talking points despite the obvious rebuttal staring you in the face. You and your little red hen. You somehow don't mind that the chamor down the street gets to mooch. It's your supposed family members which are the 'asses' who need to help themselves.
"The point is if you are an Israeli citizen, you shouldn’t get privileged treatment while other young people lose two years of their lives to protect moochers who don’t contribute anything"
They don't get special treatment. And you've yet to explain why charedim ought to be treated worse than arabs. The fact that Israeli arabs identify with Palestinians isn't the charedim's fault.
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Natan Slifkin
Jul 28, 2023
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"why charedim ought to be treated worse than Arabs." I see. So asking charedim to share responsibilities with their fellow Jews - the exact same thing that Moshe Rabbeinu said to the two tribes - is treating them badly.
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Shaul Shapira
Shaul’s Substack
Jul 29, 2023
No. You can ask them for whatever you like. They're happy to do plenty of chessed for you. https://www.srugim.co.il/190974-%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%93%D7%AA%D7%99-%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%93 The question is what their *obligations ought to be as citizens of the state of Israel.* In an army which is in many ways the antithesis of ve'haya machanacha kadosh. https://www.haaretz.co.il/opinions/2022-06-08/ty-article-opinion/00000181-4320-df72-a5cb-c3ffa48c0000 You well know that the issue has next to nothing to do with going to war. If it did, you ought to demand that everyone join a real combat unit and start marching. And you'd be infuriated at the milluimnikm who are actually hurting morale by refusing to serve, which is what the actual issue was by Moshe וְלָ֣מָּה תְנִיא֔וּן אֶת־לֵ֖ב בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל מֵֽעֲבֹר֙ אֶל־הָאָ֔רֶץ אֲשֶׁר־נָתַ֥ן לָהֶ֖ם יְהֹוָֽה: But instead you keep yammering about how the charedim don't work, are selfish, live off the state etc. Which is your prerogative. But you don't get to then turn on a dime and start making theocratic biblical demands from them.
What the Charedi Jew needs to realize is that he is actually NOT fully Torah observant. He can learn from the secular Jew about Ben Adam Lechaveru. The Charedi leaders should say, let us try to bring the Chiloni Jew closer to Hashem and let us learn from the secular Jew how to be closer to mankind so that both types of Jews can better fulfill the Torah. What better place to do that than the army. The Charedim need an awakening that being “frum” is NOT fulfilling the Mitzvot. Redeeming captives is a Mitzvah Ben Adam LeChaveru so powerful that we praise God as the ultimate performer of it - 3 times a day. Time for the Charedim to become more religious !!
Lol. Any comments from secular-lites (little better than Reform Jews) pretending to be the "real" religious might make you feel good (although it's very unlikely that even you believe it) but would be treated as childishly ridiculous by chareidim who knows the truth.
There's lots of comments arguing with me on other things, but not a single comment about my debunking of the "4000 young charedim being turned away" nonsense. You must be the same person who lacks reading comprehension with all my other posts.
"And the IDF would accept 30 year olds in place of 18 year olds. So all this talk about "destroying the yeshivos" is nonsense."
Slifkin today: Actually, never mind what I said two days ago. I was just lying- the IDF would not accept them, and that's a good thing, because that's easier for the IDF, and during a desperate manpower shortage, it's all about what's easier. And all the suffering is the chareidim's fault for not signing up!
See, this is what I mean by (deliberate?) lack of reading comprehension. There were lots of comments there, mostly probably by you, attempting to argue that charedim SHOULD NOT go to the army. But there wasn't one, not a single one, claiming to argue that charedim ARE trying to join the army as combat soldiers in their thousands, and that my debunking of the Tablet article was incorrect.
They didn't. A bunch of them who were mostly too old or otherwise unfortunately for active service signed up for abbreviated incomplete training. They are not serving as soldiers
They did. 26 is not too old when there is claimed to be desperate manpower shortage. In WW2, tens of thousands of 30 yr olds were drafted. The fact the army didn't take them was either stupid or evil or both.
No matter how much you try to excuse the army's refusal to take chareidim, it will never be a good excuse.
You are repeating yourself. Slifkin was debunked 10s of times in the comments. The army rejected thousands of chareidim while at the same time claiming to be desperate for manpower. All your excuses are of no avail.
If I was debunked 10s of times, it should be very easy for you to link to (or copy/paste) one such comment, which shows that the army did indeed turn away combat soldiers.
It is most likely that Rav Brudny himself did not write this article word for word, but rather, someone just put it together with his approval. Mishpacha Magazine (like many publications with weekly deadlines) has many editorial mistakes that slip through. It is silly to focus on this poorly worded comment as if it was intentional.
That's even worse - it shows that whenever a statement is issued in the name of him or other gedolim, there is no way to know whether said gadol even read it much less agreed with it.
Not really. You are obviously unfamiliar with how mass-circulation weekly publications operate. An overly enthusiastic talmid hastily dashes together an essay loosely based upon a speech the rabbi gave, and shows it to the rabbi for his approval as he is walking from shiur to his office. He didn't have a chance to examine carefully every word and nuance and relies on the magazine's proofreaders; bored housewives in between diaper changes, or post-seminary girls talking about their shidduch prospects. Inevitably, mistakes and poorly worded comments creep in, with unintended implications. Our friend Rabbi Slifkin has based this blog on his scouring the internet for these types of implications, which he can then highlight to the world as indicative of Haredi malevolence. Talking to Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolim in real life is not his thing.
More likely, a carefully crafted essay from an Agudah professional, coordinated with multiple Agudah askonim and with Rav Brudny, to appear in Mishpacha, in Rav Brudny's name.
If true, that doesn’t speak well of Rav Brudny’s judgment. Here is a statement that is likely to get a larger and broader audience than nearly anything he says or writes, on a topic that he clearly considers to be of urgent importance, and he would rely on an overly enthusiastic talmid and an anonymous proofreader!? That’s not a justification — that’s an indictment.
What I found most striking about this essay written in Rav Brudny's name was that its arguments were made without reference to even one Torah source.
Isn't it curious that a world that places scholarship on the highest rung uses rhetoric alone, and no scholarship whatsoever, to buttress its arguments?
(And if you say, "Well that's just Mishpacha, what do you expect?," pray tell, where has Rav Brudny expressed his arguments on this issue in a manner more befitting a scholar?)
Rhetoric is all we have, when in yeshiva they actively teach us not to God forbid see texts and sources for ourselves. We're only taught to learn what others have said before us. Coming to any other conclusion will get you ostracized. Besides the few who didn't care (see R' Moshe) who later turn out to be held up as gedolim.
I was interested to read Rav Brudny's perspective but found his argument depressing and deeply unsatisfying. In considering the Israeli Supreme Court ruling, he acknowledged that Jews "should follow the principle of dina d’malchusa dina". But then he stated that this principle "cannot cause us to disobey Torah." Without any explanation, he concluded that participation in national defense would effectively preclude “Frum Jews" from "adhering to Torah."
The obvious question is how does taking up arms to protect oneself, one's family, and fellow Jews contradict the commandments of the Torah? It seems, if anything, it is a fulfillment of the Torah. Nor did the Rabbi address the question of how Torah learning would cease if draft-age young men are summoned to serve. There remain many who are younger and older who continue to learn.
People argue about whether Chareidim are needed for military service, but I believe that is a red herring. The real issue is that -- unlike the majority in Israel -- Chareidim appear to feel little or no responsibility for the welfare of their fellow citizens. This came through in Rav Brudny's expressed hope that the Supreme Court ruling would "spur us to separate ourselves from the culture permeating the state" (I presume he meant to separate even further). How sad to see such sentiments expressed about one's fellow Jews (and how ironic that they are voiced in a publication entitled “Mishpacha”).
Ultimately, I believe that there is only one practical political course that can help rectify the current problem. Any able-bodied draft age individual who does not appear for national service (regardless of who they are) should forfeit their right to all or most state benefits. Members of a society cannot expect to take from others without contributing back.
I had a similar reaction to the article and penned this letter to Rav Brudny immediatly after shabbos.
Gut Voch Rav Elya Brudny,
As I read your column in this week's Mishpacha Magazine, one point was inescapable: Every line was written as if the million plus yidden that make up the dati Leumi community in Israel do not exist.
If your instinct is to protest my assertion, I urge you to go back and read your article again.
Rav Brudny, You can't just erase an entire community of frum yidden at least equivalent in size to the charedi community.
You ask how "every frum Jew" should respond to the Supreme Court. You refer to charedim as "We - the shomrei Torah u'mitzvos." You cite the Limmud Torah of charedim as being the real shemirah.
Are you not aware that up to 50% of the casualties in the war are frum!?
Does the limmud of Bava Basra in a hesder Yeshiva or from within a tank in Gaza not provide Shmira because of the type of Yarmulka the learner is wearing or because he make a brocha "torat Emet" instead of 'Toras emes"??!!
I've been to at least four levayas since Simchas Torah, where the main theme of the hispaidim was the hiddur in mitzvos that these holy soldiers had - alongside their mesiras nefesh in battle. (If you care at all, I can send you information about these remarkable young men or video links to their funerals)
Are they not included within your definition of a "shomrei Torah u'mitzvos"??!!
Do you know how many bonafide talmidei chachamim have died al kiddush Hashem in Gaza??!
Last week, a member of our little shul, Nadav Knoller HYD, was killed in Gaza, but that doesn't even merit consideration in your worldview.
I am trying to restrain myself in deference to your age and position but I find myself completely exhausted.
For 9 months, our community has sacrificed in scarcely imaginable ways. Fathers leaving their families for months on end. Wives and mothers living in terror of the knock on the door. Hundreds giving their lives. Hundreds more giving limbs. And somehow, the charedim are the victims in this story!!
I pray that going forward, you will contribute to kevod shamayim instead of the opposite.
I mamesh don't understand you. It feels so good and holy to continue our lifestyle and ideals and beliefs. It feels so good to believe we are right and righteous and pure. We even have people to look up to that tell us the way! These aren't regular people, these are the most holiest of holy!
You expect me to sit down, step back and evaluate these important ideas? At a time of important crisis for the country? You expect me to individually take apart a concept that has been built up for over 80 years by our leaders and culture? Do I even have the chutzpah to think these things for myself privately?
No. I will kick, scream and tantrum. I will go to war with everything I have. I will think of you all as being totally against my ideals just for the fun of it. And I will proudly proclaim that what the supreme court says has no bearing on a 'true torah Jew' at all.
Among the respondents, there is one with plenty free time but does not study Torah, an ultra-Orthodox?. He thinks he is God. He knows the truth!!! And he knows that all the ultra-Orthodox in the world know the truth! And all the other Jews know nothing! There is an explicit halacha about such people in the Shulchan Aruch, Even Haezer chapter two: You are not allowed to marry them
No. The intention of my words was for those who humiliate people personally, not for those who attack opinions and behavior. That's why I didn't mention names either. This is because disagreements are the basis of a wave of truth-seeking; Humiliation of the other is "me and no more" control struggles.
i haven't much to add to this already exhausted discussion about charedim joining the army and being more helpful. but it's worth it to point out that those who appreciate the worth of torah from a zoharic perspective are almost always a lot less anti what the charedim are trying to accomplish. i know, natan, that you think this is unrelated to that discussion, but it's actually very related. zohar ideology or jewish mysticism teaches that this world appears to work one way but it actually works a different way. according to such a worldview, the only thing truly keeping yisroel alive is the commitment to torah, and yes, particularly torah scholars and their learning.
there is a truly valid argument to be made that the charedim aren't doing their best in this regard, as many of them aren't as committed as they should be the. the bateling, the laziness, the "man-child" products who don't take care of their families and responsibilities, and so on. and there is no question that this needs to be fixed and if not, perhaps charedim aren't to continue on their path. but what we should be screaming instead is that they be better.
i guess what i'm saying is that that there are two options on how to deal with the "charedi problem": (1) we can all scream at them to stop their ways, or (2) we can encourage them to do their thing better. each way is a problem. the first way will surely help a ton of them be more giving, more responsible, more sympathetic, a void that is created through the excessive stress on the importance of torah. but doing so will also greatly minimize the charedi mission, to attach yisroel to the torah. otoh, the second way is a problem because it will minimize the cause.
those who don't believe in the charedi cause to begin with (from what i understand that incudes most people on this blog, i could be wrong), the only response is "down with the system, let's just deal with the problems"
but for those who understand and appreciate the cause, is it actually so simple which way to go? what will happen to the system if the government begins to draft bachurim?
i'm not saying the answer is that they shouldn't. but if it will cause a greater net loss of true avodas Hashem, who is willing to shoulder that deficit?
i'd love to hear what people say. but first clarify where you are coming from in your argument. i suspect many of us aren't on such a different page in the end...
I think this is one of the most important points in this conversation - recognizing the different worldviews at play here and how they lead to such drastically different understandings of avodas Hashem and how we're meant to interact with reality.
Its easy to say live and let live when the two communities dont have to interact/work together. I think the problem is when it comes to managing resources, which is by definition zero sum. By way of imperfect analogy, imagine you have a group of people building a house. Someone comes by and says, i've heard that music is really important for keeping up energy, morale, motivation, etc, so i'm going to sing for you and that will help you work. The workers will probably shrug and say ok thanks (assuming he sings well), they may even tip him. But if he finishes singing and then demands a salary, thats a whole different story - you're the one who decided that singing was a meaningful contribution, but from our perspective, the singing didnt do much, not nearly as much as shlepping concrete or picking up a hammer would have done.
I think in the same way, l'tzaareinu, the state is currently secular in nature. It recognizes that a significant percentage of the population is religious and facilitates an incredible amount of talmud torah and avodas hashem, including building elements of avodas Hashem into the fabric of the state - but i dont think its incorrect to say that we have not yet reached the point where we can call the government and state a religious one. If so, it seems a bit like the above analogy for one part of the population to decide that they're contributing to the country in a way that fits only their perspective but not the perspective of everyone else in the country, and then demand support from the state for doing so.
DL and the chiloni community agree about the importance of developing the state by working through natural channels. There are still significant disagreements between them re the place of avodas Hashem in that enterprise and the character of the state being built, but there's at least the foundation in place for the conversation because b'gadol, theyre working towards the same outcome. It would seem that the charedi community has to find a way to "speak the language" of the rest of the country before they'll be able to make their point about the importance of their approach to avodas Hashem.
Is there something seriously wrong with the methodology of these studies? If not, why would any Charedi pay any attention to something the datiim say and why would they even dream of following in their path?
What I really don't get is where is the שיוויון בנטל?!
The ultimate Zionist dilemma was always the demographic crisis. Since the founding of the country, and especially over the last 40 years the only community that experienced real growth through fertility was the Charedi community. As stated in the first study above, from 1990-2015 the Charedi community grew by 217%, whereas the dati community shrunk by 10%- as a percentage of the country. If not for the Charedim we would be facing a situation where most of the population "from the river to the sea" would be non-Jews.
What was the rest of the country thinking?!
Did they really think that this demographic crisis wouldn't blow up in their faces?
And when it did unfortunately blow up in their face on October 7 one would think they would come together to make a public declaration that the Charedim are right and we must all ask them to teach how to invest in real demographic crisis. If the entire country would grow as fast as the Chaerid the entire situation would be solved in 20 years or less. As soon as we outnumber the Arabs by enough, and have a high-fertility rate we could annex Gaza, evacuate the civilians, deradicalize them, and carpet-bomb the rest. And many millions of Charedim (and non-Charedi) would emigrate too.
But no. Instead, they double down their focus on the army.
What on earth is going on?! I could understand the secular perspective, but religious Jews?! Have they so absorbed the message of הידים ידי ציון that they simply can't wrap their heads around the idea that perhaps Jews have something else to offer the world, something more peaceful, more about the love of life, something beautiful, something that can be considered a lasting solution.
This isn't just about Israel. The entire Western world (or at least Western Europe) has to deal with the Muslim demographic issue. The entire world is looking at us and wondering, is this our future too, a future of perpetual wars. Or perhaps there is a more peaceful solution, perhaps Western society can learn to grow its own demographic. Yes, that will necessitate being far more understanding of people like us (Charedim) but isn't the tradeoff worth it?
Oh man, Yehoshua, not only is this longest comment in the history of the world, but you want me to read a 14 page study in Hebrew??
One point I would make upon a *very* brief perusal of the study: it appears that the דתי proportion on the population has remained effectively constant ("שיעור הציבור הדתי מקרב האוכלוסייה היהודית הבוגרת קבוע ועומד על 11-10"). I know you say the "dati community shrunk by 10%-", but I have no doubt that a decrease from 12 to 10.8 is well within margins of error.
While chareidi proportion has (obviously) increased dramatically, the only sector which has really decreased is this (fairly meaningless) "wastebasket" category of what appears to be "maybe sorta kinda religious but not really".
To address the rest of your comment, the fertility crisis you point to is, indeed, a crisis of the entire Western world (talk to Elon Musk about it).
But I don't understand how simply increasing the general population of the medinah would in any way enable it to "annex Gaza [illegal and immoral in the eyes of the rest of the Western world], evacuate the civilians [to where?], deradicalize them [how?], and carpet-bomb the rest [are the terrorists supposed to just sit idly by while the "good Arabs" are evacuated, and wait obediently to "carpet bombed?]". A larger population of Jews in Israel addresses precisely none of those issues.
Moreover, you say "Instead, they double down their focus on the army". The reason for the focus on the army is b/c manpower in the army is needed NOW. Even if increasing the population would be a magical fix (which, again, it wouldn't) in your "20 years or less" timeframe, that does not address current issues or crises.
In any case, you'll be pleased to know that this chutznik with 6 children (b"H) is doing his part re: piryah v'rivyah, and was privileged this very AM to attend the bris of a dear friend's 7th.
P.S. I'm not familiar with the expressions "שיוויון בנטל" or "הידים ידי ציון".
Sorry if I was (and if I continue to be) too sharp.
I must say that when you first started commenting I was impressed both by your title and by your on-target questions. But then you started spouting silly Slifkin soundbites and I was disappointed. I still gave you the benefit of the doubt, however. After all, even smart people can make mistakes, especially as there clearly are problems with Charedim. They are far from perfect.
However, now you tell me that you barely know how to read Hebrew. If that is the case, how can you be sure that you are smarter than the vast majority of those who understand Torah very well?
You do sound like an erliche yid, and it is certainly hard for an American to understand the Israeli Charedi mindset. But please realize that you don't have the full picture. Personally, I feel that the 2 studies I linked are enough to demolish the case of the datiim, though they don't necessarily explain everything Charedim do, and I am sure they do make mistakes.
It is clear to me that had Ben Gurion consulted the Chazon Ish about how to establish the state and had the government of Israel continued on the path of consulting the Gedolei Torah, Israel would be in a far better situation today. There would be 20-100 million Jews in Israel today. (The math is simple. 55 years ago the Charedim were not much more than 1% of the Jews in Israel and today there are 1.2 million Charedim in Israel.) All Palestinians would be citizens, and the economy would be booming.
It pains me greatly that the establishment, and even many religious Jews, will not admit that this mistake (i.e., not following the advice of the Charedi gedolim and thereby not prioritizing demographic growth) is the source of all their problems. Unfortunately, I can somewhat understand why Charedim feel that they can't compromise on anything until the establishment recognizes what the real source of the problem is. They see how lost the datiim are (as evidenced in those studies) and it gets them very nervous.
Ok. Perhaps there is one more puzzle piece missing. The reason Israel can't annex Gaza is because they can't offer them citizenship, as that would cause a demographic crisis.
This is not my novel idea. It is the basics of understanding the Gaza crisis. If you don't believe me, do your own research.
>>In any case, you'll be pleased to know that this chutznik with 6 children (b"H) is doing his part re: piryah v'rivyah, and was privileged this very AM to attend the bris of a dear friend's 7th.
Excellent!
I'll just note that where I come from 6-7 is not considered a large family.
To be clear, I am not saying Charedim shouldn't serve in the army. I think they aren't doing enough in many ways. But the most important things they have right. The opposite is true regarding the rest of Israeli society.
I don't think annexing Gaza after they invaded Israel is in any way illegal and immoral. What is illegal and immoral is to annex without giving the residents citizenship. That is the entire dilemma with which Israel is faced. I don't think this is anything new. Do your own research. (I have already presented this a few times on this blog to the OP and others. I also discussed it on another-non-Jewish blog.)
I didn't understand the rest of the paragraph. You give the entire population an ultimatum: either surrender to Israel (who will process them and determine who may be terrorists) or be bombed.
>The reason for the focus on the army is b/c manpower in the army is needed NOW.
This is such short-term focus. The last 75 years a demographic change wasn't needed NOW?! The establishment botched up for 75 years, then when it hits them instead of facing reality, they blame those who are doing the most to solve the problem. The demographic need is far greater and far more of a concern long-term than the need for soldiers NOW.
You don't know what שוויון בנטל is?! And you are commenting on this blog?! Come on, try googling it.
הידים ידי ציון is a play on words for הידים ידי עשיו. Ever heard of that expression?
Beautifully articulated, thanks. I don't think the other people here are interested in a harder conversation, hence the deafening silence.
I think we have to break this down to is finer components.
1. I wouldn't expect a secular to understand the chareidi argument. What I do expect is that people like natan who know that there is another valid world view they to understand the chareidi from that perspective. Where I was trying to express was that the conversation begins with their worldview in which everything follows like clockwork. But given our valid worldview, things aren't quite as simple and neat anymore. The purpose of that is to expose who is actually denying the entirety of our worldview and who is being honest. In reality most people here don't just think our view is one of a few, rather they think it is unacceptable because it doesn't fit into their rational mindset.
2. You're moshol with the singing is nice, but welcome to democracy. You don't need to agree to my worldview and I don't need to subscribe to yours. We can grumble about the Christian lobbyists taking millions (I'm pretty sure it's billions) of taxpayer dollars for their cause, but that doesn't mean they can't lobby. But I think this gets to the heat of what's going on here. Is natan a rabbi fighting for God's word and truth? Or is he just a political pundit trying to avoid political points? If it's the first, I think there are a lot of flaws with his approach as I highlighted above, and if it's the second way, we ought to expose that. Many people reading think it's all holy war our something as you can see by the responses.
I don't expect a response from the online one-line-response-gotcha community but behind all the name-calling and fights, this is where it's at imo.
I don't think you can just say "welcome to democracy" about the singing mashal. The charedim have been holding their ears and singing at the top of their voice, with a rapidly growing population, for decades now despite everyone saying we can't afford it, we don't want it like this, don't ignore army service, this is completely unsustainable, etc and the charedim only get their support because of coalition politics that give them outsize power. The only reason it's all crashing down on them is because they did not prepare for this and just took for granted that the rest of the country would keep working and fighting while they sat around singing. This is not some new attack on the Torah. And BTW, I'm a shtark yeshiva/kollel guy who is proud of much of the American yeshiva world but is tragically ashamed of the charedi leadership in Israel.
You're right, that is a more accurate mashal than what i wrote. But i think @shulmann's response still stands - democracy technically facilitates a situation like this, as w
I’m going to experiment again with allowing unpaid subscribers to comment. Comments that are personal, repetitive, unrelated to the post, or reflect a lack of interest in understanding the post, will probably be deleted and will make me less likely to open up the comments section to unpaid subscribers in future.
The fact that another population which calls itself religious (which is composed of some truly religious communities, but mostly secular dati-lite like Slifkin) participates in a war on the Torah does not make it any less of a war on the Torah.
The secular lites presumably know they are fighting the Torah and are doing it with zest, just like Slifkin himself, while the religious chardalim are unfortunately acting in the role of useful idiots for the seculars. That's the disadvantage of being DL, you are more attached to secularism than Judaism.
What gets me most is the selfish attitude of total entitlement. Charedim have to be exempt from the obligations that everyone else has, have to be paid for it, and if anyone objects, it must be because they hate Torah.
Which selfish attitude of total entitlement? Your selfish attitude of total entitlement, that you deserve the land without keeping the Torah? While waging war on Hashem and His Torah? Sounds pretty selfish and entitled.
So aside from lacking reading comprehension, you're also unable to respond to a point and have to try to switch to a different point. You're doing an amazing job of illustrating how empty your position is.
That's hilarious. You have to ban him because you have no response to his points. It's actually rather pathetic.
Thanks for ruining it for the rest of us.
Neither through work, nor education to become employable, nor through being willing to put their bodies between their loved ones and deadly peril. These are basic obligations of all able bodied Jews and fundamental to all human societies
What was this word salad? It is only through the merits of the Torah scholars that your pathetic efforts are worth anything at all. Without them there would be no way you could live in the land because of your wickedness.
@Moosehunter,
What exactly are he merits of Torah Scholars — how do those merits work and how are the merits allocated? Who are you accusing of wickedness and what exactly are their depraved iniquities?
"What was this word salad? "
It wasn't word salad.
“A war on the Torah?” Seriously?
If all of Israel turned Chareidi and ceased serving in the army, there would be no State.
And if all the Palestinians converted to Judaism, there would be no war. What does that have to do with what I said?
With all due respect… this is an inappropriate and dishonest comparison.
No one advocates that Palestinians should convert to Judaism. Not on their side and not on our side.
However… the Chareidim believe that their approach to Yiddishkeit is the “correct” one. Meaning — If their truly believe in Ahavas Yisroel, then they should aspire that all Jews become Chareidi. Hence… if that were to happen, under the current/former status quo there would be no army, a hence no State. Period.
On the other hand… if Chareidim believe that their is the correct approach Yiddishkeit and have no interest in other Jews adopting a similar lifestyle, then by definition they are a separatist group who believe that their community should be supported militarily and otherwise the majority, without contributing their part to broader society.
In the latter scenario, the Chareidim are treating the State of Israel the way that most Jews of Eastern European descent treated their countries of residence, be they Poland, Russia, etc. If that is the case, then the Chareidim do not subscribe to the basic notions of Israel as a Jewish state and see the rest of the Jewish population of Israel - secular, Mesorati, Dati Leumi, and the handful of Chareidim who serve - as akin to the host populations of those non-Jewish countries.
So what are you suggesting? That the Chareidim need to have a special status - militarily exempt - in the Jewish State, or the Chareidim do not see the Jewish nature of Israel as legitimate, and therefore the equivalent of a non-Jewish regime?
Speak for yourself. I definitely advocate that Palestinians convert to Judaism, so that Israel will have some peace. You're the one who's being dishonest, inventing an imaginary scenario and pretending that it's somehow an argument for something.
You advocate that all Palestinians convert to Judaism? Really? Based on what Halachic principle?
And you call me dishonest…
Do you, Rabbi Moosehunter, believe in Zionism? Or is the State of Israel simply an “inconvenient fact” that the Chareidi world needs to negotiate?
You seem to forget —- many people who speak out on this issue grew up within the Chareidi/ Yeshivish world. We know the arguments. We may have made them at one time. And so we also understand the separatist/ fundamentalist mindset that sits behind the arguments.
All I can say - with true love (in the spirit of Ahavas Yisrael, all of Yisrael including the Chareidi world - is that 2024 is not 1948. Not in terms of population or economy. The world changes, and all communities must consider the implications of those changes.
Every bite of food you eat and every breath you take is through the sacrifice of better men and women than yourself. You cannot even stor yourself to express a hint of gratitude
Every dumb comment you post on the Internet is through the efforts of millions of better people than yourself to whom you never expressed a hint of gratitude to. How can you even go to sleep at night?
You aren't very good at this. Your "zingers" come across as desperate, stupid copies of what brighter people have said. MY daily bread isn't stolen from the children of people I scorn whom I should be grateful to. I don't insult soldiers but demand they die for me. Learn to earn your bread by the sweat of your brow as we were instructed by Hashem. When brave men and women are willing to die for you honor them and tell your own children to do the same thing.
In short, be decent and humble.
Here we go again, this guy "Crafty Yid" responds. You plead "express a hint of gratitude, for those who protect you", this guy crawls out from under his shtender in some yeshiva,, and responds - YOU don't express gratitude with your every dumb comment.........
AND YOU STILL ANSWER THIS GUY??
I stopped reading at this point, from here it is a waste of time. What value does Crafty Yid bring to the table.
The only war on Torah is waged by Hamas and Hezbollah who are trying to destroy Klal Yisroel. It's clear that the intentions of the government who are trying to draft Charedim are doing it in an effort to make sure we have enough soldiers to combat a common enemy, and to ease the burden on the current soldiers who are suffering and sacrificing immensely as they stand in between us and our genocidal enemies. You may want to argue that despite all this, you don't think Charedim should have to serve for reason a, b, and c. But to mischaracterize the other side as a "war on the Torah" as if the goal was to destroy Yahadus or minimize Talmud Torah is a gross sheker. If you need to resort to lies to support your side, you must not have a lot of confidence in your position in the first place.
It's clear the intentions of the secular and the secular-lite are to destroy the Torah, and have been for the longest time. The seculars have shown many times that it is the Torah that they hate, even leaving the chareidim aside. And if they really just wanted to ease the burden on the current soldiers, they would have taken the thousands of post-yeshiva chareidim who signed up. And if it was just about the current war, they wouldn't be trying to cancel the Torahso Umnaso forever. Obviously, it is a war on the Torah by enemies of the Torah.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. But I think you know deep down that that's not what's happening. And you do what you need to do to defend a position that you don't really believe is defensible.
It doesn't help me sleep at night knowing that my secular Jewish brothers are engaged in a war against Hashem and His Torah...Tamuz, such a fitting month...😭😭😭
You are not connected with reality. This generation of "non-religious" has been the most open to יהדות that we have seen in modern times. And when they come home, there is going to be a hitorerut that is going to dwarf what happened in '67 and '73. The only anti-religious young people I know are the ex-haredim.
What's going to slide after the war is the idea of Torah learning by a particular hereditary class, full of scorn for everyone else.
" war on the Torah"
False. There is no war against the Torah. The Yeshivot are not being shuttered. Cutting funds is not war, and funds are not being cut from Yeshivot that include the full gamut of Torah obligations in their curriculum.
"Do you personally know the author of the blog and monitor his observance of the mitzvot 24/7? Did you do this for all other Israeli Jews? Have you been able to check every Haredi regarding the fulfillment of their mitzvot? How precisely do you judge — by quantity, by Humrot? It's evident that you haven't scrutinized every Jew in the Land of Israel. Yet, that doesn't hinder you from harshly judging. The law condemns such behavior severely. Given that you have time, there is a book titled "Guarding the Tongue," "Shemirat haLashon." Study it diligently, and in your studies, you will naturally start to implement what it teaches, if you are an observant Jew and not the Satan. There are mitzvahs to perform and many prohibitions to observe. For now, refrain from unjustly passing judgment on others. Such conduct aligns with the role of the devil, and you must avoid stepping into his shoes."
The role of the Satan is to categorize Israel and people. The role of a lover of Israel and a person is to protect and advocate.
Your discourse is canceling the Torah, Bitul Torah. If you have energy and time, what are you doing on the Internet and writing things that need thought? Study Torah!
Please keep comments open.
Your posts are normally interesting and well thought out, but giving people with opposing ideas the opportunity to respond if also an important part of the discussion.
I often find the posts of people opposed to your views as illuminating and interesting as your post, and gives me a better understanding of what people in the "non-rationalist" camp think.
Keeping comments open makes your Blog 1000 times more interesting
I think simply removing those that use childish language would go a long way to improving the comments.
While I understand what you are saying, I must disagree. Most of the filthy language I read on this blog come from the people who hate Rabbi Slifkin. Why they are here, I do not know. And I would just as soon see them disappear.
Just curious. Would you say that discussions such as these places me in the "non-rationalist camp"?
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/if-only-it-were-a-lie/comment/60819878
"Comments that are personal, repetitive, unrelated to the post, or reflect a lack of interest in understanding the post, will probably be deleted and will make me less likely to open up the comments section to unpaid subscribers in future."
I don't want to be repetitive, so I'll just note that it's a pity that charedim aren't defending their right to eat chametz on Pesach. If they were, you'd be so much more understanding of their plight. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-chametz-blitz
"I don't want to be repetitive..."
But you do want to. You just wish it were the first time again.
What you might be attempting to claim is that coercion is counter-productive. Perhaps, but subsidizing non-compliance is also counter-productive. But between coercion and subsidies there's a middle path: Cutting subsidies and rewarding subsidies those institutions who voluntarily comply.
Hi Ephraim.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/when-helping-is-harming/comment/49435583
Ephraim
Feb 13
"I simply pushed back on some over-the-top prognostications."
So you think everything is fine?
I mean why not actually answer the question and clarify what you mean? And don't bother including links without a summary. I won't read them.
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Shaul Shapira
Shaul’s Substack
Feb 13
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/an-unnatural-fixation-with-charedim/comment/36933548
"If you want to solve the economic problem, the most obvious solution is to exempt charedim from the draft, and couple that with cutting subsidies, especially ones which incentivize unemployment."
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Natan Slifkin
Feb 13
Author
How, in a country based on law and equality, do you say that the draft is obligatory for some but not others?
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Garvin
Feb 13
Ask the Arabs.
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Garvin
Feb 13
Frankly, you can also ask the women. They scream "equality", but they seem pretty quiet when it comes to their own minimalist draft requirements. Or hostage rescuing preferences.
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Shaul Shapira
Shaul’s Substack
Feb 13
"How, in a country based on law and equality, do you say that the draft is obligatory for some but not others?"
This is why I post links. You keep repeating the same talking points despite the obvious rebuttal staring you in the face. You and your little red hen. You somehow don't mind that the chamor down the street gets to mooch. It's your supposed family members which are the 'asses' who need to help themselves.
Rinse wash repeat.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21521222
Shaul Shapira
Shaul’s Substack
Jul 28, 2023
"The point is if you are an Israeli citizen, you shouldn’t get privileged treatment while other young people lose two years of their lives to protect moochers who don’t contribute anything"
They don't get special treatment. And you've yet to explain why charedim ought to be treated worse than arabs. The fact that Israeli arabs identify with Palestinians isn't the charedim's fault.
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Natan Slifkin
Jul 28, 2023
Author
"why charedim ought to be treated worse than Arabs." I see. So asking charedim to share responsibilities with their fellow Jews - the exact same thing that Moshe Rabbeinu said to the two tribes - is treating them badly.
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Shaul Shapira
Shaul’s Substack
Jul 29, 2023
No. You can ask them for whatever you like. They're happy to do plenty of chessed for you. https://www.srugim.co.il/190974-%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%93%D7%AA%D7%99-%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%93 The question is what their *obligations ought to be as citizens of the state of Israel.* In an army which is in many ways the antithesis of ve'haya machanacha kadosh. https://www.haaretz.co.il/opinions/2022-06-08/ty-article-opinion/00000181-4320-df72-a5cb-c3ffa48c0000 You well know that the issue has next to nothing to do with going to war. If it did, you ought to demand that everyone join a real combat unit and start marching. And you'd be infuriated at the milluimnikm who are actually hurting morale by refusing to serve, which is what the actual issue was by Moshe וְלָ֣מָּה תְנִיא֔וּן אֶת־לֵ֖ב בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל מֵֽעֲבֹר֙ אֶל־הָאָ֔רֶץ אֲשֶׁר־נָתַ֥ן לָהֶ֖ם יְהֹוָֽה: But instead you keep yammering about how the charedim don't work, are selfish, live off the state etc. Which is your prerogative. But you don't get to then turn on a dime and start making theocratic biblical demands from them.
https://slifkinchallenge.blogspot.com/2014/01/why-get-hagiographical-all-of-sudden.html
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Ephraim
Feb 14
Very sloppy and inconsiderate. Has the DELETE button fallen off your keyboard?
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Shaul Shapira
Shaul’s Substack
Feb 14
But aside from that non-sequitur, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/when-helping-is-harming/comment/49318878 you agree with my rebuttal?
What a mess. I don't mind typos, grammatical errors- especially if they unintentionally funny. But, slow down and use the delete key!
I won't read your comment until you make it concise.
"I won't read your comment until you make it concise."
So don't read it. 🤷♀️
I think you just proved his point, sadly.
I've responded to plenty of the substance (such that it is....) of what he writes.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-theodicy-of-absurdity/comment/56875294
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/two-different-torahs/comments
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-reform-of-agudah/comment/55395691
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-daas-torah-surprise/comment/48641149
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rav-brudnys-accusation/comment/61248052
It also doesn't help things that he repeats the same post 1000 times in different words. Especially when he does so while indulging in slanderous stereotypes which are contradicted by the very sources he cites. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-idf-doesnt-want-charedim/comment/58481516
What the Charedi Jew needs to realize is that he is actually NOT fully Torah observant. He can learn from the secular Jew about Ben Adam Lechaveru. The Charedi leaders should say, let us try to bring the Chiloni Jew closer to Hashem and let us learn from the secular Jew how to be closer to mankind so that both types of Jews can better fulfill the Torah. What better place to do that than the army. The Charedim need an awakening that being “frum” is NOT fulfilling the Mitzvot. Redeeming captives is a Mitzvah Ben Adam LeChaveru so powerful that we praise God as the ultimate performer of it - 3 times a day. Time for the Charedim to become more religious !!
Lol. Any comments from secular-lites (little better than Reform Jews) pretending to be the "real" religious might make you feel good (although it's very unlikely that even you believe it) but would be treated as childishly ridiculous by chareidim who knows the truth.
What is "secular-lite"?
How some Charedim refer to DL/ModOx.
How far they have strayed from thier ancestors ways. Yeridos Hadoros….
https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/07/07/the-forgotten-fighters-ultra-orthodox-jews-in-israels-war-of-independence/
Wouldnt it be great if thousands of chareidim signed up for the army? Oh, wait
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.now14.co.il/amp/%3fid=963297
Fake news. See https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/if-only-it-were-a-lie
Fake news. See all the comments debunking your stupidity.
There isn't a single comment even attempting to debunk my debunking.
There's lots of comments arguing with me on other things, but not a single comment about my debunking of the "4000 young charedim being turned away" nonsense. You must be the same person who lacks reading comprehension with all my other posts.
Amazing. You were totally debunked like the fool that you are tens of times. For example:
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-idf-doesnt-want-charedim/comment/58444051
Slifkin two days ago
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/hamas-haredim-and-hayalim/comment/58160488
"And the IDF would accept 30 year olds in place of 18 year olds. So all this talk about "destroying the yeshivos" is nonsense."
Slifkin today: Actually, never mind what I said two days ago. I was just lying- the IDF would not accept them, and that's a good thing, because that's easier for the IDF, and during a desperate manpower shortage, it's all about what's easier. And all the suffering is the chareidim's fault for not signing up!
See, this is what I mean by (deliberate?) lack of reading comprehension. There were lots of comments there, mostly probably by you, attempting to argue that charedim SHOULD NOT go to the army. But there wasn't one, not a single one, claiming to argue that charedim ARE trying to join the army as combat soldiers in their thousands, and that my debunking of the Tablet article was incorrect.
They didn't. A bunch of them who were mostly too old or otherwise unfortunately for active service signed up for abbreviated incomplete training. They are not serving as soldiers
Stop telling lies
They did. 26 is not too old when there is claimed to be desperate manpower shortage. In WW2, tens of thousands of 30 yr olds were drafted. The fact the army didn't take them was either stupid or evil or both.
No matter how much you try to excuse the army's refusal to take chareidim, it will never be a good excuse.
26 is a magic cutoff date for creating infantrymen. It has to do with the brain.
And none of those people were applying to be full-time soldiers in any event.
In WW2, tens of thousands of 30 yr olds were drafted. The fact the army didn't take them was either stupid or evil or both.
When you are desperate, you take what you can.
"When you are desperate, you take what you can."
Not true. An incompetent (or under-competent) soldier would be a danger to his comrades.
They. Weren't. Applying. To. Be. In. The. Army.
You are lying. Stop lying. Or at least stop repeating the same lies when they have been refuted many times.
You are repeating yourself. Slifkin was debunked 10s of times in the comments. The army rejected thousands of chareidim while at the same time claiming to be desperate for manpower. All your excuses are of no avail.
If I was debunked 10s of times, it should be very easy for you to link to (or copy/paste) one such comment, which shows that the army did indeed turn away combat soldiers.
In case anyone missed the last 20 posts this is a good round up
It's a good round up of the upcoming next 20 posts too...
Wow it's wild that Rav Brudny left out half of "shomrei Torah u’mitzvos" in Israel
I honestly wonder if he knows that there is such thing as non-charedi yeshivos.
If not, he's missing out
It is most likely that Rav Brudny himself did not write this article word for word, but rather, someone just put it together with his approval. Mishpacha Magazine (like many publications with weekly deadlines) has many editorial mistakes that slip through. It is silly to focus on this poorly worded comment as if it was intentional.
If he signed his name to it he's responsible
Of course Rav Brudny didn't write this.
But he most certainly approved its being written in his name and most certainly pre-approved every word of its content
Not so sure. You can see videos of him answering a q&A on YouTube by one of those shabbatons etc. This tracks
That's even worse - it shows that whenever a statement is issued in the name of him or other gedolim, there is no way to know whether said gadol even read it much less agreed with it.
Not really. You are obviously unfamiliar with how mass-circulation weekly publications operate. An overly enthusiastic talmid hastily dashes together an essay loosely based upon a speech the rabbi gave, and shows it to the rabbi for his approval as he is walking from shiur to his office. He didn't have a chance to examine carefully every word and nuance and relies on the magazine's proofreaders; bored housewives in between diaper changes, or post-seminary girls talking about their shidduch prospects. Inevitably, mistakes and poorly worded comments creep in, with unintended implications. Our friend Rabbi Slifkin has based this blog on his scouring the internet for these types of implications, which he can then highlight to the world as indicative of Haredi malevolence. Talking to Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolim in real life is not his thing.
Well then, it should be easy for him to clarify/ retract, right?
Bored housewives aren't changing diapers *and* being forced to work for a living. Interesting that you should think otherwise.
An overenthusiastic talmid?
More likely, a carefully crafted essay from an Agudah professional, coordinated with multiple Agudah askonim and with Rav Brudny, to appear in Mishpacha, in Rav Brudny's name.
If true, that doesn’t speak well of Rav Brudny’s judgment. Here is a statement that is likely to get a larger and broader audience than nearly anything he says or writes, on a topic that he clearly considers to be of urgent importance, and he would rely on an overly enthusiastic talmid and an anonymous proofreader!? That’s not a justification — that’s an indictment.
I'm quite certain he does... https://www.yutorah.org/teachers/Rabbi-Eli-Brudny/
What I found most striking about this essay written in Rav Brudny's name was that its arguments were made without reference to even one Torah source.
Isn't it curious that a world that places scholarship on the highest rung uses rhetoric alone, and no scholarship whatsoever, to buttress its arguments?
(And if you say, "Well that's just Mishpacha, what do you expect?," pray tell, where has Rav Brudny expressed his arguments on this issue in a manner more befitting a scholar?)
Rhetoric is all we have, when in yeshiva they actively teach us not to God forbid see texts and sources for ourselves. We're only taught to learn what others have said before us. Coming to any other conclusion will get you ostracized. Besides the few who didn't care (see R' Moshe) who later turn out to be held up as gedolim.
No Torah sources that everybody must join the army. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
"No Torah sources". Do you just make things up?
No Torah sources except...the Torah. And Chazal. And the Rambam. For starters.
Yup. None of those sources say that.
I was interested to read Rav Brudny's perspective but found his argument depressing and deeply unsatisfying. In considering the Israeli Supreme Court ruling, he acknowledged that Jews "should follow the principle of dina d’malchusa dina". But then he stated that this principle "cannot cause us to disobey Torah." Without any explanation, he concluded that participation in national defense would effectively preclude “Frum Jews" from "adhering to Torah."
The obvious question is how does taking up arms to protect oneself, one's family, and fellow Jews contradict the commandments of the Torah? It seems, if anything, it is a fulfillment of the Torah. Nor did the Rabbi address the question of how Torah learning would cease if draft-age young men are summoned to serve. There remain many who are younger and older who continue to learn.
People argue about whether Chareidim are needed for military service, but I believe that is a red herring. The real issue is that -- unlike the majority in Israel -- Chareidim appear to feel little or no responsibility for the welfare of their fellow citizens. This came through in Rav Brudny's expressed hope that the Supreme Court ruling would "spur us to separate ourselves from the culture permeating the state" (I presume he meant to separate even further). How sad to see such sentiments expressed about one's fellow Jews (and how ironic that they are voiced in a publication entitled “Mishpacha”).
Ultimately, I believe that there is only one practical political course that can help rectify the current problem. Any able-bodied draft age individual who does not appear for national service (regardless of who they are) should forfeit their right to all or most state benefits. Members of a society cannot expect to take from others without contributing back.
I had a similar reaction to the article and penned this letter to Rav Brudny immediatly after shabbos.
Gut Voch Rav Elya Brudny,
As I read your column in this week's Mishpacha Magazine, one point was inescapable: Every line was written as if the million plus yidden that make up the dati Leumi community in Israel do not exist.
If your instinct is to protest my assertion, I urge you to go back and read your article again.
Rav Brudny, You can't just erase an entire community of frum yidden at least equivalent in size to the charedi community.
You ask how "every frum Jew" should respond to the Supreme Court. You refer to charedim as "We - the shomrei Torah u'mitzvos." You cite the Limmud Torah of charedim as being the real shemirah.
Are you not aware that up to 50% of the casualties in the war are frum!?
Does the limmud of Bava Basra in a hesder Yeshiva or from within a tank in Gaza not provide Shmira because of the type of Yarmulka the learner is wearing or because he make a brocha "torat Emet" instead of 'Toras emes"??!!
I've been to at least four levayas since Simchas Torah, where the main theme of the hispaidim was the hiddur in mitzvos that these holy soldiers had - alongside their mesiras nefesh in battle. (If you care at all, I can send you information about these remarkable young men or video links to their funerals)
Are they not included within your definition of a "shomrei Torah u'mitzvos"??!!
Do you know how many bonafide talmidei chachamim have died al kiddush Hashem in Gaza??!
Last week, a member of our little shul, Nadav Knoller HYD, was killed in Gaza, but that doesn't even merit consideration in your worldview.
I am trying to restrain myself in deference to your age and position but I find myself completely exhausted.
For 9 months, our community has sacrificed in scarcely imaginable ways. Fathers leaving their families for months on end. Wives and mothers living in terror of the knock on the door. Hundreds giving their lives. Hundreds more giving limbs. And somehow, the charedim are the victims in this story!!
I pray that going forward, you will contribute to kevod shamayim instead of the opposite.
Excellent letter. If anyone else wrote in letters, please post them there.
I mamesh don't understand you. It feels so good and holy to continue our lifestyle and ideals and beliefs. It feels so good to believe we are right and righteous and pure. We even have people to look up to that tell us the way! These aren't regular people, these are the most holiest of holy!
You expect me to sit down, step back and evaluate these important ideas? At a time of important crisis for the country? You expect me to individually take apart a concept that has been built up for over 80 years by our leaders and culture? Do I even have the chutzpah to think these things for myself privately?
No. I will kick, scream and tantrum. I will go to war with everything I have. I will think of you all as being totally against my ideals just for the fun of it. And I will proudly proclaim that what the supreme court says has no bearing on a 'true torah Jew' at all.
Perfect, but remember that sarcasm is often lost on the internet!
Good description of Slifkin, honestly.
"I know you are, but what am i" is something most of us outgrow around eight or nine years of age
Yes. I like a good debate, but this "neener, neener, neener" stuff becomes tedious.
"Neener"x3
Among the respondents, there is one with plenty free time but does not study Torah, an ultra-Orthodox?. He thinks he is God. He knows the truth!!! And he knows that all the ultra-Orthodox in the world know the truth! And all the other Jews know nothing! There is an explicit halacha about such people in the Shulchan Aruch, Even Haezer chapter two: You are not allowed to marry them
An almost perfect description of Natan
"Natan" has written seforim. Have you?
No. The intention of my words was for those who humiliate people personally, not for those who attack opinions and behavior. That's why I didn't mention names either. This is because disagreements are the basis of a wave of truth-seeking; Humiliation of the other is "me and no more" control struggles.
i haven't much to add to this already exhausted discussion about charedim joining the army and being more helpful. but it's worth it to point out that those who appreciate the worth of torah from a zoharic perspective are almost always a lot less anti what the charedim are trying to accomplish. i know, natan, that you think this is unrelated to that discussion, but it's actually very related. zohar ideology or jewish mysticism teaches that this world appears to work one way but it actually works a different way. according to such a worldview, the only thing truly keeping yisroel alive is the commitment to torah, and yes, particularly torah scholars and their learning.
there is a truly valid argument to be made that the charedim aren't doing their best in this regard, as many of them aren't as committed as they should be the. the bateling, the laziness, the "man-child" products who don't take care of their families and responsibilities, and so on. and there is no question that this needs to be fixed and if not, perhaps charedim aren't to continue on their path. but what we should be screaming instead is that they be better.
i guess what i'm saying is that that there are two options on how to deal with the "charedi problem": (1) we can all scream at them to stop their ways, or (2) we can encourage them to do their thing better. each way is a problem. the first way will surely help a ton of them be more giving, more responsible, more sympathetic, a void that is created through the excessive stress on the importance of torah. but doing so will also greatly minimize the charedi mission, to attach yisroel to the torah. otoh, the second way is a problem because it will minimize the cause.
those who don't believe in the charedi cause to begin with (from what i understand that incudes most people on this blog, i could be wrong), the only response is "down with the system, let's just deal with the problems"
but for those who understand and appreciate the cause, is it actually so simple which way to go? what will happen to the system if the government begins to draft bachurim?
i'm not saying the answer is that they shouldn't. but if it will cause a greater net loss of true avodas Hashem, who is willing to shoulder that deficit?
i'd love to hear what people say. but first clarify where you are coming from in your argument. i suspect many of us aren't on such a different page in the end...
I think this is one of the most important points in this conversation - recognizing the different worldviews at play here and how they lead to such drastically different understandings of avodas Hashem and how we're meant to interact with reality.
Its easy to say live and let live when the two communities dont have to interact/work together. I think the problem is when it comes to managing resources, which is by definition zero sum. By way of imperfect analogy, imagine you have a group of people building a house. Someone comes by and says, i've heard that music is really important for keeping up energy, morale, motivation, etc, so i'm going to sing for you and that will help you work. The workers will probably shrug and say ok thanks (assuming he sings well), they may even tip him. But if he finishes singing and then demands a salary, thats a whole different story - you're the one who decided that singing was a meaningful contribution, but from our perspective, the singing didnt do much, not nearly as much as shlepping concrete or picking up a hammer would have done.
I think in the same way, l'tzaareinu, the state is currently secular in nature. It recognizes that a significant percentage of the population is religious and facilitates an incredible amount of talmud torah and avodas hashem, including building elements of avodas Hashem into the fabric of the state - but i dont think its incorrect to say that we have not yet reached the point where we can call the government and state a religious one. If so, it seems a bit like the above analogy for one part of the population to decide that they're contributing to the country in a way that fits only their perspective but not the perspective of everyone else in the country, and then demand support from the state for doing so.
DL and the chiloni community agree about the importance of developing the state by working through natural channels. There are still significant disagreements between them re the place of avodas Hashem in that enterprise and the character of the state being built, but there's at least the foundation in place for the conversation because b'gadol, theyre working towards the same outcome. It would seem that the charedi community has to find a way to "speak the language" of the rest of the country before they'll be able to make their point about the importance of their approach to avodas Hashem.
I agree that the Charedi community does a bad job presenting itself, but the dati community does too.
What do they respond to these 2 studies?
https://chotam.org.il/%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%A1%D7%93%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9D/%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%94%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%93%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA/
https://www.makorrishon.co.il/judaism/303501/
Is there something seriously wrong with the methodology of these studies? If not, why would any Charedi pay any attention to something the datiim say and why would they even dream of following in their path?
What I really don't get is where is the שיוויון בנטל?!
The ultimate Zionist dilemma was always the demographic crisis. Since the founding of the country, and especially over the last 40 years the only community that experienced real growth through fertility was the Charedi community. As stated in the first study above, from 1990-2015 the Charedi community grew by 217%, whereas the dati community shrunk by 10%- as a percentage of the country. If not for the Charedim we would be facing a situation where most of the population "from the river to the sea" would be non-Jews.
What was the rest of the country thinking?!
Did they really think that this demographic crisis wouldn't blow up in their faces?
And when it did unfortunately blow up in their face on October 7 one would think they would come together to make a public declaration that the Charedim are right and we must all ask them to teach how to invest in real demographic crisis. If the entire country would grow as fast as the Chaerid the entire situation would be solved in 20 years or less. As soon as we outnumber the Arabs by enough, and have a high-fertility rate we could annex Gaza, evacuate the civilians, deradicalize them, and carpet-bomb the rest. And many millions of Charedim (and non-Charedi) would emigrate too.
But no. Instead, they double down their focus on the army.
What on earth is going on?! I could understand the secular perspective, but religious Jews?! Have they so absorbed the message of הידים ידי ציון that they simply can't wrap their heads around the idea that perhaps Jews have something else to offer the world, something more peaceful, more about the love of life, something beautiful, something that can be considered a lasting solution.
This isn't just about Israel. The entire Western world (or at least Western Europe) has to deal with the Muslim demographic issue. The entire world is looking at us and wondering, is this our future too, a future of perpetual wars. Or perhaps there is a more peaceful solution, perhaps Western society can learn to grow its own demographic. Yes, that will necessitate being far more understanding of people like us (Charedim) but isn't the tradeoff worth it?
Oh man, Yehoshua, not only is this longest comment in the history of the world, but you want me to read a 14 page study in Hebrew??
One point I would make upon a *very* brief perusal of the study: it appears that the דתי proportion on the population has remained effectively constant ("שיעור הציבור הדתי מקרב האוכלוסייה היהודית הבוגרת קבוע ועומד על 11-10"). I know you say the "dati community shrunk by 10%-", but I have no doubt that a decrease from 12 to 10.8 is well within margins of error.
While chareidi proportion has (obviously) increased dramatically, the only sector which has really decreased is this (fairly meaningless) "wastebasket" category of what appears to be "maybe sorta kinda religious but not really".
To address the rest of your comment, the fertility crisis you point to is, indeed, a crisis of the entire Western world (talk to Elon Musk about it).
But I don't understand how simply increasing the general population of the medinah would in any way enable it to "annex Gaza [illegal and immoral in the eyes of the rest of the Western world], evacuate the civilians [to where?], deradicalize them [how?], and carpet-bomb the rest [are the terrorists supposed to just sit idly by while the "good Arabs" are evacuated, and wait obediently to "carpet bombed?]". A larger population of Jews in Israel addresses precisely none of those issues.
Moreover, you say "Instead, they double down their focus on the army". The reason for the focus on the army is b/c manpower in the army is needed NOW. Even if increasing the population would be a magical fix (which, again, it wouldn't) in your "20 years or less" timeframe, that does not address current issues or crises.
In any case, you'll be pleased to know that this chutznik with 6 children (b"H) is doing his part re: piryah v'rivyah, and was privileged this very AM to attend the bris of a dear friend's 7th.
P.S. I'm not familiar with the expressions "שיוויון בנטל" or "הידים ידי ציון".
Sorry if I was (and if I continue to be) too sharp.
I must say that when you first started commenting I was impressed both by your title and by your on-target questions. But then you started spouting silly Slifkin soundbites and I was disappointed. I still gave you the benefit of the doubt, however. After all, even smart people can make mistakes, especially as there clearly are problems with Charedim. They are far from perfect.
However, now you tell me that you barely know how to read Hebrew. If that is the case, how can you be sure that you are smarter than the vast majority of those who understand Torah very well?
You do sound like an erliche yid, and it is certainly hard for an American to understand the Israeli Charedi mindset. But please realize that you don't have the full picture. Personally, I feel that the 2 studies I linked are enough to demolish the case of the datiim, though they don't necessarily explain everything Charedim do, and I am sure they do make mistakes.
It is clear to me that had Ben Gurion consulted the Chazon Ish about how to establish the state and had the government of Israel continued on the path of consulting the Gedolei Torah, Israel would be in a far better situation today. There would be 20-100 million Jews in Israel today. (The math is simple. 55 years ago the Charedim were not much more than 1% of the Jews in Israel and today there are 1.2 million Charedim in Israel.) All Palestinians would be citizens, and the economy would be booming.
It pains me greatly that the establishment, and even many religious Jews, will not admit that this mistake (i.e., not following the advice of the Charedi gedolim and thereby not prioritizing demographic growth) is the source of all their problems. Unfortunately, I can somewhat understand why Charedim feel that they can't compromise on anything until the establishment recognizes what the real source of the problem is. They see how lost the datiim are (as evidenced in those studies) and it gets them very nervous.
There is an interesting discussion about this with Avraham Marcus (a hesder boy) here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-war-against-the-torah/comment/61633956.
If you would like to talk, I can send you my phone number.
I thought you may find these comments and convo interesting.
https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/israels-forgotten-victim-card/comment/57231071
https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/israels-forgotten-victim-card/comment/57508648
Ok. Perhaps there is one more puzzle piece missing. The reason Israel can't annex Gaza is because they can't offer them citizenship, as that would cause a demographic crisis.
This is not my novel idea. It is the basics of understanding the Gaza crisis. If you don't believe me, do your own research.
>>In any case, you'll be pleased to know that this chutznik with 6 children (b"H) is doing his part re: piryah v'rivyah, and was privileged this very AM to attend the bris of a dear friend's 7th.
Excellent!
I'll just note that where I come from 6-7 is not considered a large family.
To be clear, I am not saying Charedim shouldn't serve in the army. I think they aren't doing enough in many ways. But the most important things they have right. The opposite is true regarding the rest of Israeli society.
I don't think annexing Gaza after they invaded Israel is in any way illegal and immoral. What is illegal and immoral is to annex without giving the residents citizenship. That is the entire dilemma with which Israel is faced. I don't think this is anything new. Do your own research. (I have already presented this a few times on this blog to the OP and others. I also discussed it on another-non-Jewish blog.)
I didn't understand the rest of the paragraph. You give the entire population an ultimatum: either surrender to Israel (who will process them and determine who may be terrorists) or be bombed.
>The reason for the focus on the army is b/c manpower in the army is needed NOW.
This is such short-term focus. The last 75 years a demographic change wasn't needed NOW?! The establishment botched up for 75 years, then when it hits them instead of facing reality, they blame those who are doing the most to solve the problem. The demographic need is far greater and far more of a concern long-term than the need for soldiers NOW.
You don't know what שוויון בנטל is?! And you are commenting on this blog?! Come on, try googling it.
הידים ידי ציון is a play on words for הידים ידי עשיו. Ever heard of that expression?
Beautifully articulated, thanks. I don't think the other people here are interested in a harder conversation, hence the deafening silence.
I think we have to break this down to is finer components.
1. I wouldn't expect a secular to understand the chareidi argument. What I do expect is that people like natan who know that there is another valid world view they to understand the chareidi from that perspective. Where I was trying to express was that the conversation begins with their worldview in which everything follows like clockwork. But given our valid worldview, things aren't quite as simple and neat anymore. The purpose of that is to expose who is actually denying the entirety of our worldview and who is being honest. In reality most people here don't just think our view is one of a few, rather they think it is unacceptable because it doesn't fit into their rational mindset.
2. You're moshol with the singing is nice, but welcome to democracy. You don't need to agree to my worldview and I don't need to subscribe to yours. We can grumble about the Christian lobbyists taking millions (I'm pretty sure it's billions) of taxpayer dollars for their cause, but that doesn't mean they can't lobby. But I think this gets to the heat of what's going on here. Is natan a rabbi fighting for God's word and truth? Or is he just a political pundit trying to avoid political points? If it's the first, I think there are a lot of flaws with his approach as I highlighted above, and if it's the second way, we ought to expose that. Many people reading think it's all holy war our something as you can see by the responses.
I don't expect a response from the online one-line-response-gotcha community but behind all the name-calling and fights, this is where it's at imo.
I don't think you can just say "welcome to democracy" about the singing mashal. The charedim have been holding their ears and singing at the top of their voice, with a rapidly growing population, for decades now despite everyone saying we can't afford it, we don't want it like this, don't ignore army service, this is completely unsustainable, etc and the charedim only get their support because of coalition politics that give them outsize power. The only reason it's all crashing down on them is because they did not prepare for this and just took for granted that the rest of the country would keep working and fighting while they sat around singing. This is not some new attack on the Torah. And BTW, I'm a shtark yeshiva/kollel guy who is proud of much of the American yeshiva world but is tragically ashamed of the charedi leadership in Israel.
You're right, that is a more accurate mashal than what i wrote. But i think @shulmann's response still stands - democracy technically facilitates a situation like this, as w