Rabbi Slifkin, I very much appreciate your erudite and deeply stimulating articles. The only thing I am concerned about is that you don't devote enough writing to the subject of chareidim. Your last article was four days ago! Don't pay attention to the haters who say you have mental health issues. They're just jealous because they don't have the attention span to devote to one topic. They have it exactly backwards. You should be writing about chareidim more!
I can understand why you would disagree with Rabbi Slifkin's focus on essays about haredim, but don't understand how some of the words you use to state that objection (personal attack) are justifiable according to halacha.
Are you really concerned about halacha? Why are you only asking for a halachic justification from commenter Shimon Peres, and not from blogger Natan Slifkin? Personal attacks require justification but communal attacks don't? מאי האי?!
Anyways, see the Chinuch 338
ואולם לפי הדומה, אין במשמע שאם בא ישראל אחד והתחיל והרשיע לצער חבירו בדבריו הרעים שלא יענהו השומע, שאי אפשר להיות האדם כאבן שאין לה הופכים, ועוד, שיהיה בשתיקתו כמודה על החרופין. ובאמת, לא תצוה התורה להיות האדם כאבן, שותק למחרפיו כמו למברכיו, אבל תצוה אותנו שנתרחק מן המידה הזאת ושלא נתחיל להתקוטט ולחרף בני אדם, ובכן ינצל כל אדם מכל זה, כי מי שאינו בעל קטטה לא יחרפוהו בני אדם, זולתי השוטים הגמורים, ואין לתת לב על השוטים.
ואם אולי יכריחנו מחרף מבני אדם להשיב על דבריו, ראוי לחכם שישיב לו דרך סלסול ונעימות ולא יכעס הרבה, כי כעס בחיק כסילים ינוח (קהלת ז ט). וינצל עצמו אל השומעים מחרופיו וישליך המשא על המחרף, זהו דרך הטובים שבבני אדם. ויש לנו ללמוד דבר זה שמותר לנו לענות כסיל, לפי הדומה, מאשר התירה התורה הבא במחתרת להקדים ולהרגו (שמות כב א), שאין ספק שלא נתחייב האדם לסבול הנזקים מיד חבירו, כי יש לו רשות להנצל מידו, וכמו כן מדברי פיהו אשר מלא מרמות ותוך, בכל דבר שהוא יכול להנצל ממנו.
ואולם יש כת מבני אדם שעולה חסידותם כל כך שלא ירצו להכניס עצמם בהוראה זו להשיב חורפיהם דבר, פן יגבר עליהם הכעס ויתפשטו בעניין זה יותר מדאי. ועליהם אמרו זכרונם לברכה (שבת פח, ב) הנעלבין ואינם עולבים, שומעין חרפתם ואינם משיבין עליהם הכתוב אומר (שופטים ה לא) ואוהביו כצאת השמש בגבורתו.
You meant this part (and you're agreeing with me)?
אבל תצוה אותנו שנתרחק מן המידה הזאת ושלא נתחיל להתקוטט ולחרף בני אדם, ובכן ינצל כל אדם מכל זה, כי מי שאינו בעל קטטה לא יחרפוהו בני אדם, זולתי השוטים הגמורים, ואין לתת לב על השוטים.
(If there's another part of this Chinuch, which you believe justifies the sarcastic and cruel personal attack on the blog owner, please quote it.)
I answered your question. If you can read Hebrew, you should be able to understand it unless you are being intentionally obtuse, which I suspect is the case. Now it's your turn to answer mine. "Personal attacks require justification but communal attacks don't? מאי האי?!"
Could be my hebrew is not good enough (or my reading comprehension? or my learning ability? or my being impossibly biased?), so please help me with this.
Here's the quote from the Chinuch that look to me like it's saying NOT to respond (even in turn) with nastiness, sarcasm, and cruelty, as it's a bad middah to do so (he's pretty clear on this).
אבל תצוה אותנו שנתרחק מן המידה הזאת ושלא נתחיל להתקוטט ולחרף בני אדם, ובכן ינצל כל אדם מכל זה, כי מי שאינו בעל קטטה לא יחרפוהו בני אדם, זולתי השוטים הגמורים, ואין לתת לב על השוטים.
Actually I'm not Charedi, nor a polemicist... Well, maybe a polemicist....yet, I strongly believe your position on this topic is from some personal trauma or experience and not a balanced rational one. Of course, we're looking to you for rationality and on this topic we're disappointed.
Even in this missive, you're not wishing chag sameach to tens of thousands imperfect Jews? Do you feel the same about other imperfect Jews? Like perhaps those that are putting their lives on the lines for Israel but spew hatred on the streets about many of its citizens? Or do they get a pass, because, after all, they don't care about religion so they're imperfections are acceptable?
Your infatuation with the topic alone is indicative of the underlying issues you have with this. Almost every event is somehow tied to this single topic. Why? Are there no other topics where you can share your otherwise rational thoughts with us? That's why we signed up.
I've got no problem "confronting" this issue. I mostly agree that a large apart of the chareidi sector is making a mistake when it comes to this. But they make mistakes about other things too. And others make many big mistakes too. It's called extremists and both far sides contribute to instability of society. But I don't share your one-sided outrage and the animosity you have only for them. I hope that you come to the realization that it is you who won't confront your own demons and then hopefully you'll find a healthier position on this issue.
I wish you a lovely chag, together with all Jewish people who attempt to be good Jews and bring pleasure to the Creator and mankind. And to those that are lost, on both extremes, I hope they find their way soon, for their own sake and for the sake of our nation.
I do know people in the army. I have a close nephew in the army. But you're correct that I'm not surrounded by people in that situation. That is a definite reason for significantly more passion around this issue. Without diminishing your point, which is valid, that is very likely the reason for the unusual irrational and bias writing I've noticed by you on this topic. I did suggest that it may be because of a trauma pr experience. That would probably qualify as both possibly. Again, it's not I disagree with the main point. However, I consider you a person rooted in Torah hashkafah. When it comes to this topic you veer, sometimes far, from what someone like me, admittedly more removed and thus perhaps seeing it clearer, see as balanced and Torah compliant. It's an outlier, which is why I even engage you on this point. Not judging. Stating what I see and I think you just answered why.
You're saying that being more removed makes you more objective in being critical of how harsh I am? Possibly. It's also possible that being removed means that you don't adequately grasp the severity of the issue.
I suppose you can say that too. Although the issue is the issue. The emotions around the issue aren't. Again, as a rationalist you would normally agree. You would instinctively know that someone who's educated about all the facts but isn't directly tied to it is likely to see things clearer than someone who may have slightly more knowledge of the facts but is also directly impacted by them. You don't possess additional information that I'm not privy to. If you worked for the shin bet and had some information that isn't known to others your argument of severity would be stronger.
I dont think this issue has anything to do with Rational thought. It is a serious Torah issue where it is clear in Halacha that when there is a Milchemet Mitzva, which this undoubtedly is, everybody has to go. it also has to do with being true to oneself. we all learned in Yeashiva. how many of us could truly say they were completely absorbed in learning during our waking hours like soldiers who defend us are? Historically, Gedolei Yisroel like Re Chaim K ZL served and Rav Gedalya Nadel ZL wanted to enlist during wars that threatened the Yishuv. Rabbi Akiva was an aide de camp to Bar Kochba (Rambam Hil Melachim 11:3). why is it that nowadays the thinking has changed? so we do not hate those that fight the draft, we just see them as misled by their leaders, we are ashamed of them because they make religious Jews look bad, because they are a chilull Hashem ,shaming the torah (Rambam Hil Talmud Torah 3:10). And as you probably know wherever there is Chilul Hashem we not respect a greater person!. So rabbi Slifkin keep up your good work. Chag Sameach to all.
Even if you were right halachically (which you are not), it's still a sick obsession. You can't find anybody in the chareidi world who is nearly as obsessed with the failings of the MO world. In fact, you probably cannot find anybody in the non-chareidi world, even among those who are *extremely* anti-chareidi, who is as obsessed with as Slifkin! He clearly is suffering some form of mental illness.
Idiot. I was responding to David Guttman who was claiming it is halachic issues which motivate you. And then I pointed out that even among the anti-chareidim, there is nobody who is nearly as obsessed as you are. Face it. You are a very sick little man.
Right. Those emotionally attached to the issue finding it more compelling than those less emotionally attached. That in itself heavily indicates an emotional, rather than rational, argument.
Amazingly, people sometimes appreciate obsessed lunatics who give voice to their own worst impulses, stuff that they themselves are too stable to obsess over.
Wow, slifkin. You still haven't shown how the charedim are not justified in not joining the IDF halachikly. Last time, you ran away and stopped responding to me. Yet you have the audacity to pretend that the charedim are not acting within halacha once again?
As I always say, you have a lot of great points. And I think we need to see a lot more sensitivity from the Charedi public even if "their torah" tells them not to join. I'll admit that he fact that you can't see the opposing side of your political view and you discount then because of that is quite disheartening to me but that's the way this goes...
The Rambam holds there is not a milchemes mitzva. He says it quite openly in his hakdama lminyan hamitzvos (end of the last shoresh in sefer hamitzvos). He clearly states that both a milchemes reshus and milchemes mitzva need the advice of a sanhedrin, a melech, and a Cohen gadol, and therefore, along with korbanos and capital punishment, there will be no milchama until the Beis Hamikdash.
you see this is where i have a problem. Torah is teaching us how to behave. in your system if something is not exactly as you read it the undesrlying concept does not apply. that is causing a bunch of halachik mechanics who use sophistry instaed of understanding the reason for a mitzvah or a halacha. if you think about it there can be a discussion otherwise we can daven together but not dialogue with each other.
More than a thousand years of precedent have taught us to learn Torah as Halachic mechanics. I did not make it up.
But your reasoning here is also flawed. A milchama that needs a king and urim vetumim is a milchama that is done in the name of the sovereignty of Klal Yisroel. That is why, when we are attempting to establish the borders of Eretz Yisroel and announce sovereignty, it should require a king and urim vetumim. Otherwise we are left with a warped sense of sovereignty, and the state of israel is the prime example of a non-Jewish style of sovereignty. The Torah did not want that. That is the underlying concept.
צר שבא עליהם is not an expression of necessity, it is a different type of war.
I credit the haredim with having and holding to an ideology..even though it offends me. But olim coming with college degrees, professional jobs, TVs, computers, who travel, read novels and news reports with smartphones but enrolled their children in right-wing yeshivas and refuse sending them to the army is an existential threat to Israel.
On the other hand, the Israeli Haredim are somewhat of an economic threat. The key to solve this is encouraging Israeli Haredim to emulate American Haredim, such as those of Lakewood, where the high schools and Kollelim are similar to their Israeli counterparts, yet their culture encourages them to earn a high income starting from their older 30s.
The best way to accomplish this is through the type of immigrants that you mention, who will serve as role-models for their children and many other Charedim.
If Israel would make it their top priority to get tens of thousands of these families to immigrate, I believe all their problems would be solved.
(As for serving in the army, I believe many of the people from this background would be fine serving in the army at the age that American Charedim generally leave Kollel, if the army would provide such a Charedi framework. Unfortunately, as has been discussed in the comments to recent posts, it does not appear that the army is interested in such an arrangement. Either way, I think that if someone has a choice whether to educate their children to have a (even slightly) larger family or to serve in the army, I think the best choice is the one with exponential long-term effects.)
Of course but the Israeli public care more about principle than actually fixing the problem, so they prefer chareidim staying the way they are so they can complain and hope they cut funds, and compromising on nothing until all chareidim join the army at age 18.
Excellent observation re: which Torah to celebrate. Hopefully one day everyone will realize that all Jews must join in physically defending the homeland from all the enemies trying to destroy us.
I guess we are doing a good enough job refuting the OPs posts that he feels it necessary to limit comments to paid subscribers.
Here is my comment to his latest post.
The harsh reality is that the root of the current crisis which Israel faces is the fact that the population of Israel did not take emulate the Charedim for the last 70-75. According to what I read on this blog, the original exemption for yeshivaleit was originally for only 400 people and it has since increased by over 30,000% percent. Yes, that’s thirty thousand percent. Had the rest of the country emulated this growth, even had they had growth of merely 10,000% percent we would not have the crisis of today. We would have no problem annexing Gaza and it would be obvious that we do not need a draft at all.
The tragic fact is that there are those among us who insist on repeating the same tragic mistake, even if it means forcing it down the throat of those who hold the key to a brilliant future. These people insist that Israel must, just must, continue forever down the road of perpetual wars.
This is tragic. If only Israel would take the lessons from history to heart, they still have the opportunity to change their country completely. In the next few decades, they can grow their country to tens of millions of people, so these problems would exist no longer. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55776012
There are so many Haredi families from abroad who would emigrate if the country would only show that they are looking to do everything to accommodate them. These new immigrants would be role models for Israeli Haredim to fully integrate in the economy. So many more people would emulate the Charedim if only those who have the power would expose them to the beauty of this way of life. There are many very wealthy people who would take part of such initiatives. Many of them are at the Adirei Hatorah event today. If only Israel would send ambassadors to the Adirei Hatorah event to beg them to help with such initiatives the course of Israel would take a dramatic change for the better.
The approach is subjective, and clearly nature can inspire. But God as Creator of natural wonders is a thin concept, awe and little more; only a God of morality and meaning can direct how we live. For that, look to texts (and societies, and the better angels of our own nature's).
I disagree. What more does man want to know, than that the power that made these things is divine, is omnipotent? If man believed this strongly, his moral life and meaning will follow of course. By seeing daily the goodness of God to all, it is a lesson for our conduct to each other. We stand in awe of God. Everything that we see, touch, and eat, are his creations. In this there can be no delusion. It is natural and could come from none other but God. But in the case of the Torah, man had the power to compose. This seems more likely when considering certain factors, for instance, that it was written in human language, which was Hebrew, and we know that man has the power of making books, inventing stories of God, and calling them “revelation.” There is no way to know that the book is divine. What do you have to say for this.
The powers that made the universe can very well be amoral and cold. They certainly don't tell humans anything other than "you are small and insignificant".
The wonder is not the stars but that God cares to know Man.
I disagree with you entirely. It is by looking at the sky that we derived all our knowledge of science and machinery. God isn’t cold and amoral. That’s not a conclusion someone would make who actually spent time studying nature and contemplating the structure of the universe.
God cares for man. God created a perfect world, containing all that man needs. For example, man needs oxygen to breath so air is everywhere and is free. Next, he needs to drink, so water is almost as abundant, and it can flow to
remote regions, and where water is
lacking, rain delivers it. He needs food, so vegetation is
plentiful, inexpensive and easily reproduced. It sustains our nutritive needs and
clothing. Homes are necessary to keep
warm, so wood is almost just as abundant. God has filled the earth with abundance. In addition, God shows His mercy. We see that he does not withhold that abundance even from the unthankful.
In short, we see a fair creation, a world that cost us nothing. Is it we that light up the sun; pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on, providing for all. Are all these things, and the blessings they indicate in the future, nothing to, you?
Or, can you be excited only by subjects of death and tragedy, such as God flooding the world except for one family, or raining down fire indiscriminately on Egypt, or slaying every male, woman, and child of the Canaanite nations?
Nature doesn’t depict God as amoral. Just the opposite is true. The Torah depicts God as amoral and imperfect (ie capable of making mistakes).
Moreover, the Torah clearly assumes that God (YHVH) not only can make mistakes, but even that YHVH (like a human being) can do evil.
In the story of the golden calf. God decrees to
destroy the Israelites after
the sin of the making of the calf, and Moses demands of God to repent of the evil decree terming
the decree evil (Exodus 32, 12) - and, strikingly,
Scripture then says that God repented of the evil that God intended to do
(Exodus 32, 14). Thus, Scripture, the Torah, explicitly writes that God can do evil.
you just proved my point. i should have asked you earlier what is the proof that for 1000 years we were mechanics? i disagree. learn the Rishonim and the great acharonim who dealt with psak. Rashei yeshiva became poskim without having Shimush in our generation unfortunately.
"The Rami Levi supermarket chain put up a gigantic poster..."
It's called advertising. Don't read too much into it. (Except that perhaps RL, unlike the bigger chains, doesn't have the budget to rebrand the branches in Charedi neighborhoods. Many of the so-called Charedi supermarkets are not Charedi at all.)
"Amazingly, some charedi polemicists claim that my posts about charedi society reflect “personal” issues that I have, rather than reflecting views held by millions of people, including religious Jews and rabbis and roshei yeshiva. I’m not sure if they really believe that, or if it’s just something that they tell themselves in order not to have to confront the issues that I raise."
Now, I have my opinions about what motivates you, but I'll just note that it's very hard to have a reasoned discussion of the issues in the comments section of a post which begins with 'Amazingly...,' and then proceeds to string together Rami Levy, PTSD, and a vote on bill which was prompted by the self appointed supreme court [1] deciding that now would a good time to hold hearings on a deeply polarizing issue, which inevitably created a panic among the elected lawmakers who actually face the voters. And then Mansour Abbas got a chance to explain in Arabic from the knesset plenum all about peace and lovingkindness and Al Aksa. Because.... arvut haddadit. And shivyon banetel. And demokratiya.
Meanwhile the lionhearted opposition head yair lapid got a chance to bloviate. Which is basically his own form of milluim given that his own military 'service' consisted of bloviating in bamachaneh newspaper and then telling various 'anecdotes' about it which never actually happened, but make for good TV. [2]
===
[1] A supreme court which includes Justice Chaled Kabub who wanted to know why terrorists who weren't freed as part of a hostage exchange are being discriminated against. No, really.
השופט כבוב המשיך וטען בפני התובעים כי שחרור נאשמים בטרור בהקשרים של עסקת חטופים צריך להביא גם להקלה עם הנאשמים שלא שוחררו, למען שמירה על "אכיפה שיוויונית".
היה איזה סיפור... סיפרתי פעם על איך בתחילת מלחמת לבנון הראשונה אהה... הייתה קבוצה קטנה של חבר'ה שעם השריון נכנסו לתוך המלחמה לאיזה שבוע משונה מאוד, זה אנקדוטה שסיפרתי פעם".
RNS: Have you changed your opinion? For a long time, you would be clear that what you call the mystical approach to Torah was certainly an authentic tradition but that what you called the rationalist approach was even more widely found among rishonim before things shifted in the other direction in recent centuries. You have always pushed the charedi world to be honest about this and accept the rationalist position as legitimate. Now, you seem to be completely turning against the entire mystical tradition and not just the behavior of the charedim. Two Torahs is the most extreme thing I think you have ever said. Aren’t the charedim just following the mystical tradition that the way to influence events in the world is spiritually and not naturally? Are you saying they don’t believe this anymore and have abandoned this legitimate view and now they’re just a bunch of misguided, selfish ingrates dancing around a false Torah of their own making? Or have you now decided that the mystical view is, in fact, not a legitimate approach to Torah? I’ve always understood your criticisms to be that their Torah is valid, they’ve just gone from non-rationalist to over-the-top (in some cases off-the-deep-end) anti-rational when the modern world should have convinced them that, especially considering how large their community now is, that some rational behavior is vital to a safe and healthy society.
I wanted to correct my agreement with this - not sure why I accepted it earlier. The charedim will generally tell you they follow R’ Shimon bar Yochai who said the blessing that includes “you will gather your grain” cannot be a “real blessing” because if you have to take the time needed for agriculture, “what will become of the Torah?” That must only apply when Yisrael is not following God’s will properly and is a second-best kind of blessing. When they are, the real blessing applies, which is that others will do their work for them. The halacha generally does not follow this but charedim believe it applies to them and any blessings or other sources that require hishtadlus are only when people are not doing things in the ideal way. There are lots of compelling arguments that this does NOT apply to them but you cannot say categorically that there is no mystical tradition to avoid normal hishtadlus.
Medicine is a specific mitzvah. And politics, they’ve learned that things don’t go well without it. And there are other areas of weakness, too - none of which take a way from my point. They are following the more mystical tradition and making mistakes along the way, missing signs demanding change, etc. You yourself have commented on some of the historical and social reasons for this. But to say they have abandoned the real Torah and made up a new one? That’s going too far.
I'll quote R. Elchanan Nir: “…In its charedi version, the Torah was deprived of being an elixir of life. It has lost its connection to its surroundings, to the wide avenues of the nation, to the reality to which it is supposed to turn and influence it from its spirit. It is not for nothing that the Sages said, "Whoever says he has nothing but Torah – he does not even have Torah" (Yevamot 109b). There can be no true Torah with those who are not involved in life itself. From being a Torah of life, which provides an answer and light to its surroundings, a Torah has instead developed that does not deal with reality, that does not have responsibility and simple humanity, lending a shoulder to collapsing agriculture or a partnership with the soldiers who fight for it… Suddenly, many in the national-religious public are internalizing the truth: This Torah that our charedi brothers boast about is not the Torah we are studying. In our community, we don’t believe in a Torah that absolves one of responsibility and of sharing the burden with one’s friend, a Torah that is not a Torah of life.”
I happen to agree with that for the most part. I'm just trying to pin down an answer from you. Have you changed your position of respecting a mystical approach as valid that tends to sufficiently support the charedim to accept them? Or are you officially considering them an aberrant form of Judaism?
Of course not (at least not for the general population. There was e.g. R’ Chanina b. Dosa). But there is a categorical difference between following a valid tradition and making big mistakes to creating their own Torah. Two Torahs is a whole new accusation. Do you really want to go there? Isn’t this just taking mysticism too far in the face of existential fears about facing the modern world?
Rabbi Slifkin, I very much appreciate your erudite and deeply stimulating articles. The only thing I am concerned about is that you don't devote enough writing to the subject of chareidim. Your last article was four days ago! Don't pay attention to the haters who say you have mental health issues. They're just jealous because they don't have the attention span to devote to one topic. They have it exactly backwards. You should be writing about chareidim more!
Hi.
I can understand why you would disagree with Rabbi Slifkin's focus on essays about haredim, but don't understand how some of the words you use to state that objection (personal attack) are justifiable according to halacha.
Please explain how they would be.
Thanks!
??? You must have meant to respond to somebody else?
You do this for fun, erev Shavuous?
Hashem yirachem.
Are you really concerned about halacha? Why are you only asking for a halachic justification from commenter Shimon Peres, and not from blogger Natan Slifkin? Personal attacks require justification but communal attacks don't? מאי האי?!
Anyways, see the Chinuch 338
ואולם לפי הדומה, אין במשמע שאם בא ישראל אחד והתחיל והרשיע לצער חבירו בדבריו הרעים שלא יענהו השומע, שאי אפשר להיות האדם כאבן שאין לה הופכים, ועוד, שיהיה בשתיקתו כמודה על החרופין. ובאמת, לא תצוה התורה להיות האדם כאבן, שותק למחרפיו כמו למברכיו, אבל תצוה אותנו שנתרחק מן המידה הזאת ושלא נתחיל להתקוטט ולחרף בני אדם, ובכן ינצל כל אדם מכל זה, כי מי שאינו בעל קטטה לא יחרפוהו בני אדם, זולתי השוטים הגמורים, ואין לתת לב על השוטים.
ואם אולי יכריחנו מחרף מבני אדם להשיב על דבריו, ראוי לחכם שישיב לו דרך סלסול ונעימות ולא יכעס הרבה, כי כעס בחיק כסילים ינוח (קהלת ז ט). וינצל עצמו אל השומעים מחרופיו וישליך המשא על המחרף, זהו דרך הטובים שבבני אדם. ויש לנו ללמוד דבר זה שמותר לנו לענות כסיל, לפי הדומה, מאשר התירה התורה הבא במחתרת להקדים ולהרגו (שמות כב א), שאין ספק שלא נתחייב האדם לסבול הנזקים מיד חבירו, כי יש לו רשות להנצל מידו, וכמו כן מדברי פיהו אשר מלא מרמות ותוך, בכל דבר שהוא יכול להנצל ממנו.
ואולם יש כת מבני אדם שעולה חסידותם כל כך שלא ירצו להכניס עצמם בהוראה זו להשיב חורפיהם דבר, פן יגבר עליהם הכעס ויתפשטו בעניין זה יותר מדאי. ועליהם אמרו זכרונם לברכה (שבת פח, ב) הנעלבין ואינם עולבים, שומעין חרפתם ואינם משיבין עליהם הכתוב אומר (שופטים ה לא) ואוהביו כצאת השמש בגבורתו.
Hag Sameach!
You meant this part (and you're agreeing with me)?
אבל תצוה אותנו שנתרחק מן המידה הזאת ושלא נתחיל להתקוטט ולחרף בני אדם, ובכן ינצל כל אדם מכל זה, כי מי שאינו בעל קטטה לא יחרפוהו בני אדם, זולתי השוטים הגמורים, ואין לתת לב על השוטים.
(If there's another part of this Chinuch, which you believe justifies the sarcastic and cruel personal attack on the blog owner, please quote it.)
Thanks!
I answered your question. If you can read Hebrew, you should be able to understand it unless you are being intentionally obtuse, which I suspect is the case. Now it's your turn to answer mine. "Personal attacks require justification but communal attacks don't? מאי האי?!"
Hi.
Could be my hebrew is not good enough (or my reading comprehension? or my learning ability? or my being impossibly biased?), so please help me with this.
Here's the quote from the Chinuch that look to me like it's saying NOT to respond (even in turn) with nastiness, sarcasm, and cruelty, as it's a bad middah to do so (he's pretty clear on this).
אבל תצוה אותנו שנתרחק מן המידה הזאת ושלא נתחיל להתקוטט ולחרף בני אדם, ובכן ינצל כל אדם מכל זה, כי מי שאינו בעל קטטה לא יחרפוהו בני אדם, זולתי השוטים הגמורים, ואין לתת לב על השוטים.
It appears you didn't read the part of the paragraph before this, and/or you don't know what the word נתחיל means.
IM has already written about this! Read all about it here!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/two-different-religions
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-reporter-who-was-concerned-about
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-real-message-of-tisha-bav
Actually I'm not Charedi, nor a polemicist... Well, maybe a polemicist....yet, I strongly believe your position on this topic is from some personal trauma or experience and not a balanced rational one. Of course, we're looking to you for rationality and on this topic we're disappointed.
Even in this missive, you're not wishing chag sameach to tens of thousands imperfect Jews? Do you feel the same about other imperfect Jews? Like perhaps those that are putting their lives on the lines for Israel but spew hatred on the streets about many of its citizens? Or do they get a pass, because, after all, they don't care about religion so they're imperfections are acceptable?
Your infatuation with the topic alone is indicative of the underlying issues you have with this. Almost every event is somehow tied to this single topic. Why? Are there no other topics where you can share your otherwise rational thoughts with us? That's why we signed up.
I've got no problem "confronting" this issue. I mostly agree that a large apart of the chareidi sector is making a mistake when it comes to this. But they make mistakes about other things too. And others make many big mistakes too. It's called extremists and both far sides contribute to instability of society. But I don't share your one-sided outrage and the animosity you have only for them. I hope that you come to the realization that it is you who won't confront your own demons and then hopefully you'll find a healthier position on this issue.
I wish you a lovely chag, together with all Jewish people who attempt to be good Jews and bring pleasure to the Creator and mankind. And to those that are lost, on both extremes, I hope they find their way soon, for their own sake and for the sake of our nation.
Of course you don't share my outrage, you're not part of a community where everyone's children are in the army.
I do know people in the army. I have a close nephew in the army. But you're correct that I'm not surrounded by people in that situation. That is a definite reason for significantly more passion around this issue. Without diminishing your point, which is valid, that is very likely the reason for the unusual irrational and bias writing I've noticed by you on this topic. I did suggest that it may be because of a trauma pr experience. That would probably qualify as both possibly. Again, it's not I disagree with the main point. However, I consider you a person rooted in Torah hashkafah. When it comes to this topic you veer, sometimes far, from what someone like me, admittedly more removed and thus perhaps seeing it clearer, see as balanced and Torah compliant. It's an outlier, which is why I even engage you on this point. Not judging. Stating what I see and I think you just answered why.
You're saying that being more removed makes you more objective in being critical of how harsh I am? Possibly. It's also possible that being removed means that you don't adequately grasp the severity of the issue.
I suppose you can say that too. Although the issue is the issue. The emotions around the issue aren't. Again, as a rationalist you would normally agree. You would instinctively know that someone who's educated about all the facts but isn't directly tied to it is likely to see things clearer than someone who may have slightly more knowledge of the facts but is also directly impacted by them. You don't possess additional information that I'm not privy to. If you worked for the shin bet and had some information that isn't known to others your argument of severity would be stronger.
I dont think this issue has anything to do with Rational thought. It is a serious Torah issue where it is clear in Halacha that when there is a Milchemet Mitzva, which this undoubtedly is, everybody has to go. it also has to do with being true to oneself. we all learned in Yeashiva. how many of us could truly say they were completely absorbed in learning during our waking hours like soldiers who defend us are? Historically, Gedolei Yisroel like Re Chaim K ZL served and Rav Gedalya Nadel ZL wanted to enlist during wars that threatened the Yishuv. Rabbi Akiva was an aide de camp to Bar Kochba (Rambam Hil Melachim 11:3). why is it that nowadays the thinking has changed? so we do not hate those that fight the draft, we just see them as misled by their leaders, we are ashamed of them because they make religious Jews look bad, because they are a chilull Hashem ,shaming the torah (Rambam Hil Talmud Torah 3:10). And as you probably know wherever there is Chilul Hashem we not respect a greater person!. So rabbi Slifkin keep up your good work. Chag Sameach to all.
Even if you were right halachically (which you are not), it's still a sick obsession. You can't find anybody in the chareidi world who is nearly as obsessed with the failings of the MO world. In fact, you probably cannot find anybody in the non-chareidi world, even among those who are *extremely* anti-chareidi, who is as obsessed with as Slifkin! He clearly is suffering some form of mental illness.
Right, because the failings of the MO world do not harm charedim!!!
Idiot. I was responding to David Guttman who was claiming it is halachic issues which motivate you. And then I pointed out that even among the anti-chareidim, there is nobody who is nearly as obsessed as you are. Face it. You are a very sick little man.
Amazingly, people whose children are in the IDF usually appreciate my posts very much.
Right. Those emotionally attached to the issue finding it more compelling than those less emotionally attached. That in itself heavily indicates an emotional, rather than rational, argument.
Amazingly, people sometimes appreciate obsessed lunatics who give voice to their own worst impulses, stuff that they themselves are too stable to obsess over.
Wow, slifkin. You still haven't shown how the charedim are not justified in not joining the IDF halachikly. Last time, you ran away and stopped responding to me. Yet you have the audacity to pretend that the charedim are not acting within halacha once again?
Welcome to America!
As I always say, you have a lot of great points. And I think we need to see a lot more sensitivity from the Charedi public even if "their torah" tells them not to join. I'll admit that he fact that you can't see the opposing side of your political view and you discount then because of that is quite disheartening to me but that's the way this goes...
I just figured it out. It's not an obsession; it's a new found religion! Finally the "rationalists" have meaning and purpose in their lives.
Read his posts with this in mind; it changes how you view it all.
The Rambam holds there is not a milchemes mitzva. He says it quite openly in his hakdama lminyan hamitzvos (end of the last shoresh in sefer hamitzvos). He clearly states that both a milchemes reshus and milchemes mitzva need the advice of a sanhedrin, a melech, and a Cohen gadol, and therefore, along with korbanos and capital punishment, there will be no milchama until the Beis Hamikdash.
If you are bringing proof from R chaim Kanievsky maybe you can explain why for the last 40 years he unequivocally opposed bachurim joining the army.
Love that 'undoubtedly'. It is carrying some heavy weight there.
But just to clarify, milchemes mitzvah does not mean 'necessary war', neither does it mean 'just war'.
see hilchot melachim 5:1 ve'ezrat israel mitzar sheba aleihem
Why don't you quote the Rambam in sefer hamitzvos which clearly states that all milchama does not exist nowadays?
Right, when an Army attacks a city, we must drive them out.
Right now, their army is not attacking a city. It has nothing to do with צר שבא עליהם.
"Right now, their army is not attacking a city."
"Right now"
Made up חילוק.
"their army"
צר שבא עליהם doesn't necessarily mean an army. Another fabricated חילוק.
" a city"
It doesn't necessarily have to be a city. Another incorrect חילוק.
Their army is not attacking a city?
There were hundreds of rockets today against cities in the north. 60,000+ people have not been able to go home for 9 months.
Last week there was an infiltration attempt from Gaza, and yishuvim in the Otef are still under rocket fire.
Where are you living???
you see this is where i have a problem. Torah is teaching us how to behave. in your system if something is not exactly as you read it the undesrlying concept does not apply. that is causing a bunch of halachik mechanics who use sophistry instaed of understanding the reason for a mitzvah or a halacha. if you think about it there can be a discussion otherwise we can daven together but not dialogue with each other.
You see, this is where I have a problem.
More than a thousand years of precedent have taught us to learn Torah as Halachic mechanics. I did not make it up.
But your reasoning here is also flawed. A milchama that needs a king and urim vetumim is a milchama that is done in the name of the sovereignty of Klal Yisroel. That is why, when we are attempting to establish the borders of Eretz Yisroel and announce sovereignty, it should require a king and urim vetumim. Otherwise we are left with a warped sense of sovereignty, and the state of israel is the prime example of a non-Jewish style of sovereignty. The Torah did not want that. That is the underlying concept.
צר שבא עליהם is not an expression of necessity, it is a different type of war.
I credit the haredim with having and holding to an ideology..even though it offends me. But olim coming with college degrees, professional jobs, TVs, computers, who travel, read novels and news reports with smartphones but enrolled their children in right-wing yeshivas and refuse sending them to the army is an existential threat to Israel.
I think the opposite is true. The existential crisis which Israel faces is the demographic crisis, which the Haredim are the key to solving. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55813234
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55856776
On the other hand, the Israeli Haredim are somewhat of an economic threat. The key to solve this is encouraging Israeli Haredim to emulate American Haredim, such as those of Lakewood, where the high schools and Kollelim are similar to their Israeli counterparts, yet their culture encourages them to earn a high income starting from their older 30s.
The best way to accomplish this is through the type of immigrants that you mention, who will serve as role-models for their children and many other Charedim.
If Israel would make it their top priority to get tens of thousands of these families to immigrate, I believe all their problems would be solved.
(As for serving in the army, I believe many of the people from this background would be fine serving in the army at the age that American Charedim generally leave Kollel, if the army would provide such a Charedi framework. Unfortunately, as has been discussed in the comments to recent posts, it does not appear that the army is interested in such an arrangement. Either way, I think that if someone has a choice whether to educate their children to have a (even slightly) larger family or to serve in the army, I think the best choice is the one with exponential long-term effects.)
>> starting from their older 30
This was a typo. It should say 20s not 30s.
Of course but the Israeli public care more about principle than actually fixing the problem, so they prefer chareidim staying the way they are so they can complain and hope they cut funds, and compromising on nothing until all chareidim join the army at age 18.
" existential threat "
Hyperbole.
Excellent observation re: which Torah to celebrate. Hopefully one day everyone will realize that all Jews must join in physically defending the homeland from all the enemies trying to destroy us.
I guess we are doing a good enough job refuting the OPs posts that he feels it necessary to limit comments to paid subscribers.
Here is my comment to his latest post.
The harsh reality is that the root of the current crisis which Israel faces is the fact that the population of Israel did not take emulate the Charedim for the last 70-75. According to what I read on this blog, the original exemption for yeshivaleit was originally for only 400 people and it has since increased by over 30,000% percent. Yes, that’s thirty thousand percent. Had the rest of the country emulated this growth, even had they had growth of merely 10,000% percent we would not have the crisis of today. We would have no problem annexing Gaza and it would be obvious that we do not need a draft at all.
The tragic fact is that there are those among us who insist on repeating the same tragic mistake, even if it means forcing it down the throat of those who hold the key to a brilliant future. These people insist that Israel must, just must, continue forever down the road of perpetual wars.
This is tragic. If only Israel would take the lessons from history to heart, they still have the opportunity to change their country completely. In the next few decades, they can grow their country to tens of millions of people, so these problems would exist no longer. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55776012
There are so many Haredi families from abroad who would emigrate if the country would only show that they are looking to do everything to accommodate them. These new immigrants would be role models for Israeli Haredim to fully integrate in the economy. So many more people would emulate the Charedim if only those who have the power would expose them to the beauty of this way of life. There are many very wealthy people who would take part of such initiatives. Many of them are at the Adirei Hatorah event today. If only Israel would send ambassadors to the Adirei Hatorah event to beg them to help with such initiatives the course of Israel would take a dramatic change for the better.
I am not convinced that God revealed the Torah but I do believe the Torah was inspired by all that God created, chag sameach.
The Torah reveals God (at least in part). And as Rabbi Slifkin points out, He is to be found in how we conduct our lives, not just esoteric study.
I think God is revealed in nature. This is the meaning of Psalm 19.
The approach is subjective, and clearly nature can inspire. But God as Creator of natural wonders is a thin concept, awe and little more; only a God of morality and meaning can direct how we live. For that, look to texts (and societies, and the better angels of our own nature's).
I disagree. What more does man want to know, than that the power that made these things is divine, is omnipotent? If man believed this strongly, his moral life and meaning will follow of course. By seeing daily the goodness of God to all, it is a lesson for our conduct to each other. We stand in awe of God. Everything that we see, touch, and eat, are his creations. In this there can be no delusion. It is natural and could come from none other but God. But in the case of the Torah, man had the power to compose. This seems more likely when considering certain factors, for instance, that it was written in human language, which was Hebrew, and we know that man has the power of making books, inventing stories of God, and calling them “revelation.” There is no way to know that the book is divine. What do you have to say for this.
The powers that made the universe can very well be amoral and cold. They certainly don't tell humans anything other than "you are small and insignificant".
The wonder is not the stars but that God cares to know Man.
I disagree with you entirely. It is by looking at the sky that we derived all our knowledge of science and machinery. God isn’t cold and amoral. That’s not a conclusion someone would make who actually spent time studying nature and contemplating the structure of the universe.
God cares for man. God created a perfect world, containing all that man needs. For example, man needs oxygen to breath so air is everywhere and is free. Next, he needs to drink, so water is almost as abundant, and it can flow to
remote regions, and where water is
lacking, rain delivers it. He needs food, so vegetation is
plentiful, inexpensive and easily reproduced. It sustains our nutritive needs and
clothing. Homes are necessary to keep
warm, so wood is almost just as abundant. God has filled the earth with abundance. In addition, God shows His mercy. We see that he does not withhold that abundance even from the unthankful.
In short, we see a fair creation, a world that cost us nothing. Is it we that light up the sun; pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on, providing for all. Are all these things, and the blessings they indicate in the future, nothing to, you?
Or, can you be excited only by subjects of death and tragedy, such as God flooding the world except for one family, or raining down fire indiscriminately on Egypt, or slaying every male, woman, and child of the Canaanite nations?
Nature doesn’t depict God as amoral. Just the opposite is true. The Torah depicts God as amoral and imperfect (ie capable of making mistakes).
Moreover, the Torah clearly assumes that God (YHVH) not only can make mistakes, but even that YHVH (like a human being) can do evil.
In the story of the golden calf. God decrees to
destroy the Israelites after
the sin of the making of the calf, and Moses demands of God to repent of the evil decree terming
the decree evil (Exodus 32, 12) - and, strikingly,
Scripture then says that God repented of the evil that God intended to do
(Exodus 32, 14). Thus, Scripture, the Torah, explicitly writes that God can do evil.
Powerful
i dont think we have anything further to discuss as we are not having a dialogue. no argument on Metzius. have a nice summer
you just proved my point. i should have asked you earlier what is the proof that for 1000 years we were mechanics? i disagree. learn the Rishonim and the great acharonim who dealt with psak. Rashei yeshiva became poskim without having Shimush in our generation unfortunately.
"The Rami Levi supermarket chain put up a gigantic poster..."
It's called advertising. Don't read too much into it. (Except that perhaps RL, unlike the bigger chains, doesn't have the budget to rebrand the branches in Charedi neighborhoods. Many of the so-called Charedi supermarkets are not Charedi at all.)
the communication is alive and well
That last line is cold and brutal....and completely right and necessary.
"Two Different Torahs
Which one are you celebrating?"
I'm celebrating one on the first night and the other on the second night.
"Amazingly, some charedi polemicists claim that my posts about charedi society reflect “personal” issues that I have, rather than reflecting views held by millions of people, including religious Jews and rabbis and roshei yeshiva. I’m not sure if they really believe that, or if it’s just something that they tell themselves in order not to have to confront the issues that I raise."
Your claims about charedim being the reason for stuff are less than accurate. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-idf-doesnt-want-charedim/comment/58485189 https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-idf-doesnt-want-charedim/comment/58436524
Now, I have my opinions about what motivates you, but I'll just note that it's very hard to have a reasoned discussion of the issues in the comments section of a post which begins with 'Amazingly...,' and then proceeds to string together Rami Levy, PTSD, and a vote on bill which was prompted by the self appointed supreme court [1] deciding that now would a good time to hold hearings on a deeply polarizing issue, which inevitably created a panic among the elected lawmakers who actually face the voters. And then Mansour Abbas got a chance to explain in Arabic from the knesset plenum all about peace and lovingkindness and Al Aksa. Because.... arvut haddadit. And shivyon banetel. And demokratiya.
Meanwhile the lionhearted opposition head yair lapid got a chance to bloviate. Which is basically his own form of milluim given that his own military 'service' consisted of bloviating in bamachaneh newspaper and then telling various 'anecdotes' about it which never actually happened, but make for good TV. [2]
===
[1] A supreme court which includes Justice Chaled Kabub who wanted to know why terrorists who weren't freed as part of a hostage exchange are being discriminated against. No, really.
https://www.srugim.co.il/910430-%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%98-%D7%9B%D7%91%D7%95%D7%91-%D7%9C%D7%94%D7%A7%D7%9C-%D7%A2%D7%9D-%D7%9E%D7%97%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%90-%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%A8%D7%95
השופט כבוב המשיך וטען בפני התובעים כי שחרור נאשמים בטרור בהקשרים של עסקת חטופים צריך להביא גם להקלה עם הנאשמים שלא שוחררו, למען שמירה על "אכיפה שיוויונית".
[2] See here: https://www.israelhayom.co.il/news/geopolitics/article/13193022
היה איזה סיפור... סיפרתי פעם על איך בתחילת מלחמת לבנון הראשונה אהה... הייתה קבוצה קטנה של חבר'ה שעם השריון נכנסו לתוך המלחמה לאיזה שבוע משונה מאוד, זה אנקדוטה שסיפרתי פעם".
RNS: Have you changed your opinion? For a long time, you would be clear that what you call the mystical approach to Torah was certainly an authentic tradition but that what you called the rationalist approach was even more widely found among rishonim before things shifted in the other direction in recent centuries. You have always pushed the charedi world to be honest about this and accept the rationalist position as legitimate. Now, you seem to be completely turning against the entire mystical tradition and not just the behavior of the charedim. Two Torahs is the most extreme thing I think you have ever said. Aren’t the charedim just following the mystical tradition that the way to influence events in the world is spiritually and not naturally? Are you saying they don’t believe this anymore and have abandoned this legitimate view and now they’re just a bunch of misguided, selfish ingrates dancing around a false Torah of their own making? Or have you now decided that the mystical view is, in fact, not a legitimate approach to Torah? I’ve always understood your criticisms to be that their Torah is valid, they’ve just gone from non-rationalist to over-the-top (in some cases off-the-deep-end) anti-rational when the modern world should have convinced them that, especially considering how large their community now is, that some rational behavior is vital to a safe and healthy society.
There is no mystical tradition to avoid normal hishtadlus.
I wanted to correct my agreement with this - not sure why I accepted it earlier. The charedim will generally tell you they follow R’ Shimon bar Yochai who said the blessing that includes “you will gather your grain” cannot be a “real blessing” because if you have to take the time needed for agriculture, “what will become of the Torah?” That must only apply when Yisrael is not following God’s will properly and is a second-best kind of blessing. When they are, the real blessing applies, which is that others will do their work for them. The halacha generally does not follow this but charedim believe it applies to them and any blessings or other sources that require hishtadlus are only when people are not doing things in the ideal way. There are lots of compelling arguments that this does NOT apply to them but you cannot say categorically that there is no mystical tradition to avoid normal hishtadlus.
They engage in normative and full hishtadlus when it comes to such things as medicine and politics.
Medicine is a specific mitzvah. And politics, they’ve learned that things don’t go well without it. And there are other areas of weakness, too - none of which take a way from my point. They are following the more mystical tradition and making mistakes along the way, missing signs demanding change, etc. You yourself have commented on some of the historical and social reasons for this. But to say they have abandoned the real Torah and made up a new one? That’s going too far.
I'll quote R. Elchanan Nir: “…In its charedi version, the Torah was deprived of being an elixir of life. It has lost its connection to its surroundings, to the wide avenues of the nation, to the reality to which it is supposed to turn and influence it from its spirit. It is not for nothing that the Sages said, "Whoever says he has nothing but Torah – he does not even have Torah" (Yevamot 109b). There can be no true Torah with those who are not involved in life itself. From being a Torah of life, which provides an answer and light to its surroundings, a Torah has instead developed that does not deal with reality, that does not have responsibility and simple humanity, lending a shoulder to collapsing agriculture or a partnership with the soldiers who fight for it… Suddenly, many in the national-religious public are internalizing the truth: This Torah that our charedi brothers boast about is not the Torah we are studying. In our community, we don’t believe in a Torah that absolves one of responsibility and of sharing the burden with one’s friend, a Torah that is not a Torah of life.”
I happen to agree with that for the most part. I'm just trying to pin down an answer from you. Have you changed your position of respecting a mystical approach as valid that tends to sufficiently support the charedim to accept them? Or are you officially considering them an aberrant form of Judaism?
Of course not (at least not for the general population. There was e.g. R’ Chanina b. Dosa). But there is a categorical difference between following a valid tradition and making big mistakes to creating their own Torah. Two Torahs is a whole new accusation. Do you really want to go there? Isn’t this just taking mysticism too far in the face of existential fears about facing the modern world?