The penultimate issue of Headlines podcast featured 4 charedi rabonim/speakers. I wouldn't recommend the 1st, but the latter 2, r lopiansky and r glatstein, were both great.
They both stressed that one can and should have a double edged approach:
1. We are super grateful to the IDF for putting their lives in literal danger. It's a very necessary השתדלות that we have to do.
2. We recognise that אין עוד מלבדו and ultimately the נצחון of this war is in His hands only.
I think that's the approach everyone should have. The only question is how much emphasis do you put on one over the other.
(Nathan, You are right) traditionally many charedim only had the second approach.
Conversely, many chilonim only have the first approach.
A true synthesis of the 2 approaches is what we are witnessing now. We have lots of videos of secular soldiers singing מי שמאמין, עם ישראל חי etc and putting on ציצית and תפילין, which is amazing and heartwarming. We also have lots of charedim acknowledging the sacrifice of the soldiers. Charedi shuls are saying the מי שברך לחיילים in shuls. It's amazing.
I did once see a photo of an Israeli war room. Bunch of officers standing around a map planning a tactic. with a poster behind the officers stating ה' ילחם לכם ואתם תחרישון. That was perfect!
Nb
As a critical person, I need to end with one criticism(!), which is that the leadership of Israel's govt and army still don't seem to ever publicly thank Hashem or acknowledge him. On twitter it's always about them. They seem to only hold of the first approach. Is it all still כוחי ועוצם ידי?
(The Arabs often say alahu Akbar. We need to counteract that).
It would be amazing if someone with clout could encourage Israel's leadership to start publicly mentioning the impact of God on this war.
"We are super grateful to the IDF for putting their lives in literal danger. It's a very necessary השתדלות that we have to do."
How is participation in a מלחמת מצוה which is mandated by הלכה just השתדלות? I think it's more than השתדלות! Now maybe השתדלות is a מצוה, but since when has מצות become demoted to mere השתדלות?
I think the two camps are talking past each other because one is focused on the macro, and the other on the micro.
At the time IDF is fighting and saving lives, YES, THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING, and deserve tremendous hakaras hatov, appreciation, and support, etc. Would anyone respond to someone who just saved their life, "you didn't really do that"?!
The Chareidi/Yeshiva point is though, in the general sense, the success of the State of Israel is tied to following the Torah. For example, if Jews in Israel stopped being frum, Israel would fare much worse. I think Chareidim often mention following the Torah when they talk about the IDF so as not to lose sight of that general fact.
(Of course there is also the question of what percentage of the country can exclusively and learn and be exempt from making normal contributions to society, like every country needs. I would say maybe the top 5%.)
Right, a true synthesis would involve a seamless combination of Hyrax happy talk with a full throated condemnation of Charedim not appreciating the complete security and idyllic serenity provided by the state of Israel.
"...the leadership of Israel's govt and army still don't seem to ever publicly thank Hashem or acknowledge him. On twitter it's always about them. They seem to only hold of the first approach. Is it all still כוחי ועוצם ידי?
(The Arabs often say alahu Akbar. We need to counteract that)."
"The second reason that he gives is particularly interesting. He says that Covid caused many charedim to get connected to the Internet. As a result of this, instead of just getting their news from sanitized newspapers like Yated and HaModia, they are seeing the terrible photos and videos and stories and news in real time. This, too, makes them feel more connected and makes them understand that they are involved in this."
"The haredi public is not what it is believed to be by both Agudah spokesmen such as Rabbi Sherer and by the non-haredi public—as is clear from the very positive response to my article from within the Haredi world. They are not all mindless masses who will read only what they are told to read and who will faithfully follow whatever they are told to do when no explanation is given.
In the 21st century, even many haredim have the internet. The Agudah itself posts its convention speeches on YouTube—albeit with the option for submitting comments hastily disabled after a link to my blog was posted! If haredim are bothered by a leadership decision, they will not just accept it on trust, as Rabbi Sherer demanded – they will discuss it, and compare it with views of others that are better explained. If they feel that haredi media sources are not presenting accurate or relevant information, they will turn to other media sources. If they feel that their voices are not being heard, they will write blogs."
I must have missed the great Covid-09 pandemic. Alternatively, you're wish-casting, as you've been doing for a decade and a half. (Hilariously, that was a VIN article you were all excited about back then too.)
As an aside, this whole 'exposure makes people smart and educated and see beyond what their leadership wants them to see' has become the stock and trade of all manner of conspiracy theorists and quacks. https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Cures-They-Dont-About/dp/097559950X
"Anti-vaccine sentiment isn’t new: In 2019, the U.S. reported the most measles cases in 27 years, an outbreak fueled by unvaccinated communities in parts of New York, California and Oregon. But its appeal was turbocharged by the pandemic, where political opposition to the Covid vaccines has melded in some corners with broader skepticism of immunizations as a whole."
"HHS also outlined a range of activities that it said is aimed at reinforcing that vaccines are safe and effective and promoting factual information, including monitoring social media for misinformation, working with local health officials to identify and correct misconceptions and publicizing its own set of online resources meant to address common questions and concerns."
I might add that you're quite happy to condemn it yourself when it suits you, too.
"It's fine and understandable to have questions or concerns or anxieties about the vaccine. But what you need to do is consult someone who knows what he/she is talking about. Such a person is not the anti-vaxx doctor that you found on the internet, who represents a fringe crank element. Rather, it's the mainstream medical establishment, or your personal physician. "
To the extent there is a change in the chareidi community, it is for the same reason there is a change in the secularist community, with hundreds of thousands being mobilized. You don't need to search for special chareidi-specific explanations.
One factor that I believe makes this time different is that unlike all previous attacks this one has all the hallmarks of a classic progrom. It touched deep cultural memories. I believe that is why charadim are responding differently this time.
Many of the wars that Israel has fought have been political.
When terrorists killed four teenagers, the government pretended that they were alive and kept hostage in order to authorize a war. Was war necessary then? There was no reason to think so, and we don't have this blind trust in lying politicians to follow them. Joining the army under those circumstances would be placing our fate, belief, and citizenship under the Zionists.
This case is a simple one of Pikuach Nefesh. Just like during the War of Independence and the Yom Kippur war, when Charedim enlisted. There was no issue of Zionism, it was self-defense. But the other wars are not the same, the standing army is not the same and the various campaigns are not the same.
All of their pontificating will fly out the window in 20-40 years when charedim each 50% of the population. When the country will be overrun by the surrounding Arab population, with mass casualties reaching in the ten to hundreds of thousands easily. Unfortunately it might be too little too late at that point.
Who will they beg to save them? The US? Who knows if majority of the US will even be pro-Israel at that point.
Oct 7th made it clear, when it comes to survival, having a huge population that is basically useless in defense is unsustainable. Israel's greatest threat are not the Arabs. It's the people within.
The reason for the surge is obvious: bc the battle is happening NOW. The Torah doesn't contemplate "standing armies", or being in an army for years at at time with no actual battle. Rightly or wrongly (that's the old issue), the Charedim aren't interested in that. But when there's a fight for their home and their lives, heck yeah they want to join the fight.
(The suggestions proffered by this journalist are foolish. Young and teenage charedi guys aren't "scared" from missiles, and if they were, they wouldn't be joining the army, which is even more dangerous.)
Saul David and Shlomo HAD standing armies. And in the modern world you need a trained standing force not a farmer who will drop his pitchfork and take a weapon this isn’t the 1700’s
Yes, I understand the point about needing training. I didn't say the Charedi thinking was correct, in part bc of precisely that point. Nevertheless, what I described is correct. This, and nothing else, is their mindset. They want to join NOW, bc the fight is happening NOW. They don't want to be in the *army* per se, as an institution; they want to take part in defending the country. Right or wrong, its important to understand the difference.
(The second "reason" offered by the journalist, the laughable "post Covid exposure to the Internet", was even dumber than the first. If it had any truth at all, Charedim would have been signing up long before October 7.)
The penultimate issue of Headlines podcast featured 4 charedi rabonim/speakers. I wouldn't recommend the 1st, but the latter 2, r lopiansky and r glatstein, were both great.
They both stressed that one can and should have a double edged approach:
1. We are super grateful to the IDF for putting their lives in literal danger. It's a very necessary השתדלות that we have to do.
2. We recognise that אין עוד מלבדו and ultimately the נצחון of this war is in His hands only.
I think that's the approach everyone should have. The only question is how much emphasis do you put on one over the other.
(Nathan, You are right) traditionally many charedim only had the second approach.
Conversely, many chilonim only have the first approach.
A true synthesis of the 2 approaches is what we are witnessing now. We have lots of videos of secular soldiers singing מי שמאמין, עם ישראל חי etc and putting on ציצית and תפילין, which is amazing and heartwarming. We also have lots of charedim acknowledging the sacrifice of the soldiers. Charedi shuls are saying the מי שברך לחיילים in shuls. It's amazing.
I did once see a photo of an Israeli war room. Bunch of officers standing around a map planning a tactic. with a poster behind the officers stating ה' ילחם לכם ואתם תחרישון. That was perfect!
Nb
As a critical person, I need to end with one criticism(!), which is that the leadership of Israel's govt and army still don't seem to ever publicly thank Hashem or acknowledge him. On twitter it's always about them. They seem to only hold of the first approach. Is it all still כוחי ועוצם ידי?
(The Arabs often say alahu Akbar. We need to counteract that).
It would be amazing if someone with clout could encourage Israel's leadership to start publicly mentioning the impact of God on this war.
"We are super grateful to the IDF for putting their lives in literal danger. It's a very necessary השתדלות that we have to do."
How is participation in a מלחמת מצוה which is mandated by הלכה just השתדלות? I think it's more than השתדלות! Now maybe השתדלות is a מצוה, but since when has מצות become demoted to mere השתדלות?
(Otherwise, a fine comment, EB)
That is not a true synthesis.
I think the two camps are talking past each other because one is focused on the macro, and the other on the micro.
At the time IDF is fighting and saving lives, YES, THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING, and deserve tremendous hakaras hatov, appreciation, and support, etc. Would anyone respond to someone who just saved their life, "you didn't really do that"?!
The Chareidi/Yeshiva point is though, in the general sense, the success of the State of Israel is tied to following the Torah. For example, if Jews in Israel stopped being frum, Israel would fare much worse. I think Chareidim often mention following the Torah when they talk about the IDF so as not to lose sight of that general fact.
(Of course there is also the question of what percentage of the country can exclusively and learn and be exempt from making normal contributions to society, like every country needs. I would say maybe the top 5%.)
Right, a true synthesis would involve a seamless combination of Hyrax happy talk with a full throated condemnation of Charedim not appreciating the complete security and idyllic serenity provided by the state of Israel.
do explain
A true synthesis is that everyone acknowledges Ain Od Milvado and everyone shares the military burden.
"...the leadership of Israel's govt and army still don't seem to ever publicly thank Hashem or acknowledge him. On twitter it's always about them. They seem to only hold of the first approach. Is it all still כוחי ועוצם ידי?
(The Arabs often say alahu Akbar. We need to counteract that)."
well put! (take out the parenthesis imo)
We should learn from the Arabs who shout alahu akbar while committing atrocities?
Yes. They use the name of God לרעה. We should use it לטובה
Link here
https://www.podbean.com/ea/pb-aqz3u-14ccc05
"The second reason that he gives is particularly interesting. He says that Covid caused many charedim to get connected to the Internet. As a result of this, instead of just getting their news from sanitized newspapers like Yated and HaModia, they are seeing the terrible photos and videos and stories and news in real time. This, too, makes them feel more connected and makes them understand that they are involved in this."
You claimed https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2011/12/gevalt-jerusalem-post.html back in 2011:
"The haredi public is not what it is believed to be by both Agudah spokesmen such as Rabbi Sherer and by the non-haredi public—as is clear from the very positive response to my article from within the Haredi world. They are not all mindless masses who will read only what they are told to read and who will faithfully follow whatever they are told to do when no explanation is given.
In the 21st century, even many haredim have the internet. The Agudah itself posts its convention speeches on YouTube—albeit with the option for submitting comments hastily disabled after a link to my blog was posted! If haredim are bothered by a leadership decision, they will not just accept it on trust, as Rabbi Sherer demanded – they will discuss it, and compare it with views of others that are better explained. If they feel that haredi media sources are not presenting accurate or relevant information, they will turn to other media sources. If they feel that their voices are not being heard, they will write blogs."
I must have missed the great Covid-09 pandemic. Alternatively, you're wish-casting, as you've been doing for a decade and a half. (Hilariously, that was a VIN article you were all excited about back then too.)
As an aside, this whole 'exposure makes people smart and educated and see beyond what their leadership wants them to see' has become the stock and trade of all manner of conspiracy theorists and quacks. https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Cures-They-Dont-About/dp/097559950X
And regarding the Covid pandemic specifically.:
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/20/biden-anti-vax-movement-00116516
"Anti-vaccine sentiment isn’t new: In 2019, the U.S. reported the most measles cases in 27 years, an outbreak fueled by unvaccinated communities in parts of New York, California and Oregon. But its appeal was turbocharged by the pandemic, where political opposition to the Covid vaccines has melded in some corners with broader skepticism of immunizations as a whole."
"HHS also outlined a range of activities that it said is aimed at reinforcing that vaccines are safe and effective and promoting factual information, including monitoring social media for misinformation, working with local health officials to identify and correct misconceptions and publicizing its own set of online resources meant to address common questions and concerns."
I might add that you're quite happy to condemn it yourself when it suits you, too.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/lovely-people-who-contribute-to-deaths
"It's fine and understandable to have questions or concerns or anxieties about the vaccine. But what you need to do is consult someone who knows what he/she is talking about. Such a person is not the anti-vaxx doctor that you found on the internet, who represents a fringe crank element. Rather, it's the mainstream medical establishment, or your personal physician. "
To the extent there is a change in the chareidi community, it is for the same reason there is a change in the secularist community, with hundreds of thousands being mobilized. You don't need to search for special chareidi-specific explanations.
Excellent. You have outdone yourself!
Thank you,
Irwin (Yitzchak) Rubin
ללמוד על מנת לעשות:
https://youtu.be/5IPg5_BqKCM
One factor that I believe makes this time different is that unlike all previous attacks this one has all the hallmarks of a classic progrom. It touched deep cultural memories. I believe that is why charadim are responding differently this time.
Many of the wars that Israel has fought have been political.
When terrorists killed four teenagers, the government pretended that they were alive and kept hostage in order to authorize a war. Was war necessary then? There was no reason to think so, and we don't have this blind trust in lying politicians to follow them. Joining the army under those circumstances would be placing our fate, belief, and citizenship under the Zionists.
This case is a simple one of Pikuach Nefesh. Just like during the War of Independence and the Yom Kippur war, when Charedim enlisted. There was no issue of Zionism, it was self-defense. But the other wars are not the same, the standing army is not the same and the various campaigns are not the same.
We didnt need to retaliate? The atack now happened due to Israel cowardice and lack of willingness to fight!
All of their pontificating will fly out the window in 20-40 years when charedim each 50% of the population. When the country will be overrun by the surrounding Arab population, with mass casualties reaching in the ten to hundreds of thousands easily. Unfortunately it might be too little too late at that point.
Who will they beg to save them? The US? Who knows if majority of the US will even be pro-Israel at that point.
Oct 7th made it clear, when it comes to survival, having a huge population that is basically useless in defense is unsustainable. Israel's greatest threat are not the Arabs. It's the people within.
This is a serious point.
This needs to be addressed
Hey did you find a scholar in residence position yet?
Keep us posted!
The reason for the surge is obvious: bc the battle is happening NOW. The Torah doesn't contemplate "standing armies", or being in an army for years at at time with no actual battle. Rightly or wrongly (that's the old issue), the Charedim aren't interested in that. But when there's a fight for their home and their lives, heck yeah they want to join the fight.
(The suggestions proffered by this journalist are foolish. Young and teenage charedi guys aren't "scared" from missiles, and if they were, they wouldn't be joining the army, which is even more dangerous.)
Saul David and Shlomo HAD standing armies. And in the modern world you need a trained standing force not a farmer who will drop his pitchfork and take a weapon this isn’t the 1700’s
Yes, I understand the point about needing training. I didn't say the Charedi thinking was correct, in part bc of precisely that point. Nevertheless, what I described is correct. This, and nothing else, is their mindset. They want to join NOW, bc the fight is happening NOW. They don't want to be in the *army* per se, as an institution; they want to take part in defending the country. Right or wrong, its important to understand the difference.
(The second "reason" offered by the journalist, the laughable "post Covid exposure to the Internet", was even dumber than the first. If it had any truth at all, Charedim would have been signing up long before October 7.)
This post is insane.
Jonathan Rosenblum made a statement on the Headlines podcast about the imbalance of risk between chareidi families and the rest of the population.
It’s worth a listen.
At the 1:07:40 mark
https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/halacha-headlines/id1048703487?i=1000631959484