This is no chiddush. A very large part of what in Eretz Yisroel would be called Charedi population in Flatbush, Monsey, Five Towns, even Lakewood, are NOT Charedi in Israeli terms. They may dress similar, speak similarly, but they are part of the taxpaying workforce, and while Torah is #1 they don't share the same value system as Israeli Charedim. They may not support the Israeli government 100% but they love every soldier, don't hate the chilonim, respect Hesder yeshivas even if they wouldn't send their own kids.. and they don't agree with across the board army exemption... hence why so many have not made aliya despite their love for eretz yisroel. And for many that have it has been socially difficult. They Look Chareidi but arent
My Point is you are mistaken. Many, many DON'T Identify that way. They just LOOK Charedei, they wear Black Hats, send their kids to Yeshivos that Look Chareidi but they aren't at least not by the Israeli definition. Israel and America in this sense are worlds apart. Your using Israeli labels for a non Israeli product..
So you are judging who they are by what they read??!! I live in NYC. I vote republican all the time but I read the NY Times, does that make me an anti Israel liberal? And as to the "pinups", they are respecting those gedolim for their achievements in Torah. As an ashkenaz jew, Hanging up a Picture of The Baba
Sali, or Horav Ovadya does not make me sefardi, obligate me to say selichos for a month or allow me to eat rice on pesach!! It just means that I'm hanging a picture of and respecting a Gadol Batorah
He's not mistaken; it's a very true observation and you're quibbling. There is an identity schism where American yeshiva-affiliated Jews identify with Israeli chareidim but are very, very different. It's become far more salient since Oct. 7 and has many doubting their affiliation but the point is very, very valid. It's peculiar sociology that only us strange humans are capable of. If you drew a line threw the American yeshiva community, maybe half would fall on one side (Lakewood and its environs in particular) and half on the other.
In America, the Orthodox have kind of divided themselves into basically 2 camps - pro-Zionism vs anti-Zionism. The anti-Zionism camp includes both Satmars (Williamsburg, Monroe, some of Monsey) and about half of Lakewood (the Reb Malkiel faction), as well as a few small Chasidishe communities. The pro-Zionism group includes everyone else, including the other half of Lakewood, most of Monsey, Five Towns, Flatbush, Boro Park, etc.
Most of the pro-Zionist camp, and all of the anti-Zionist camp, would be considered Charedi if they lived in Israel. They all follow the Charedi Gedolim.
In the US, the pro-Zionist camp looks down at the anti-Zionist camp, to the extent that Yeshiva World will run pieces against anyone who demonstrates against the State of Israel. But the pro-Zionist camp is still proudly Orthodox.
But when they move to Israel, or even when they stay in the US but are identified as Charedi, they get queasy to be identified with Israeli Charedim, because of the tremendous flak the Israeli charedim get for not going to the army.
However, when members of the pro-Zionist camp in the US are explained the true reason that Charedim in Israel don't go to the army - namely, their concern that their children will become irreligious in the IDF and their refusal to risk even when Neshama - virtually all Orthodox Jews in the US, even the most pro-Zionist, will agree that it is a problem and are very understanding of the refusal to join the IDF.
To prevent these US Jews from getting messed up when they move to Israel, it would help if they were explained the true reason that Charedim will never serve in the IDF. They will be fully understanding. Of course, there are those who want them to get messed up, but if anyone truly cares about these poor Jews, explain to them the true reason.
I take exception to your use of the word "Orthodox", as you neglect to mention Modern Orthodox families in the US (think Riverdale, Teaneck etc etc), whose kids go to dati Leumi Yeshiva/Midrasha gap year programs in Israel (think Har Etzion, Migdal Oz, Midreshet Harova, Lindenbaum) and often stay or return on aliya, serve in the army, and join the dati community in Israel, with little or no disconnect (though I fully agree that American MO is not the same as Israeli dati). They serve in the army, are not messed up, and are generally not understanding of those who don't
They don't get messed up because they fail to appreciate the deep and profound (and dissembling) reasons *you* (but interestingly, not Israeli charedim) give for not serving in the IDF. To the contrary: They get messed up because they *accept* those reasons once they come to Israel, exchanging a healthy, normal view of IDF service with a false, self-serving one. And you would encourage more, and accuse those who don't of doing exactly what you do.
Artscroll once published a memoir of an Orthodox World War II American Army soldier. So apparently service in foreign militaries is OK; Israeli is not. Gosh, I wonder why.
It's not an identity schism, it's that people are more complicated than you think. Slifkin is not very smart and has a tendency to oversimplify, trying to stuff people into neat little boxes marked "friends" and "enemies", and so he gets hopeless confused why Americans are not fitting so nicely into the enemy box.
Not really. People can support and admire others without agreeing with them across the board and without being in a state of "identity schism". It's really quite common.
The point about Aliya is, there isn't really a community in Israel where us American Jews who "look charedi by the israeli definition" but aren't charedi by the Israeli definition, fit in.
In America, the Orthodox have kind of divided themselves into basically 2 camps - pro-Zionism vs anti-Zionism. The anti-Zionism camp includes both Satmars (Williamsburg, Monroe, some of Monsey) and about half of Lakewood (the Reb Malkiel faction), as well as a few small Chasidishe communities. The pro-Zionism group includes everyone else, including the other half of Lakewood, most of Monsey, Five Towns, Flatbush, Boro Park, etc.
Most of the pro-Zionist camp, and all of the anti-Zionist camp, would be considered Charedi if they lived in Israel. They all follow the Charedi Gedolim.
In the US, the pro-Zionist camp looks down at the anti-Zionist camp, to the extent that Yeshiva World will run pieces against anyone who demonstrates against the State of Israel. But the pro-Zionist camp is still proudly Orthodox.
But when they move to Israel, or even when they stay in the US but are identified as Charedi, they get queasy to be identified with Israeli Charedim, because of the tremendous flak the Israeli charedim get for not going to the army.
However, when members of the pro-Zionist camp in the US are explained the true reason that Charedim in Israel don't go to the army - namely, their concern that their children will become irreligious in the IDF and their refusal to risk even when Neshama - virtually all Orthodox Jews in the US, even the most pro-Zionist, will agree that it is a problem and are very understanding of the refusal to join the IDF.
To prevent these US Jews from getting messed up when they move to Israel, it would help if they were explained the true reason that Charedim will never serve in the IDF. They will be fully understanding. Of course, there are those who want them to get messed up, but if anyone truly cares about these poor Jews, explain to them the true reason.
They don't get messed up because they fail to appreciate the deep and profound (and dissembling) reasons *you* (but interestingly, not Israeli charedim) give for not serving in the IDF. To the contrary: They get messed up because they *accept* those reasons once they come to Israel, exchanging a healthy, normal view of IDF service with a false, self-serving one. And you would encourage more, and accuse those who don't of doing exactly what you do.
Artscroll once published a memoir of an Orthodox World War II American Army soldier. So apparently service in foreign militaries is OK; Israeli is not. Gosh, I wonder why.
Clearly the black hat community in the US does not correspond to the Charedi community in Israel, even if they dress similar. One of the reasons for this may be that the Modern Orthodox community in the US does not correspond to the Religious Zionist community in Israel, even if they dress similar.
I have heard people who identify as Modern Orthodox in North America state that in their mind the definition of MO is that you do not have to be so careful in Mitzva observance. A very significant percentage of people who identify as MO are not careful about specific mitzvot. There are entire communities where the weekday minyan is made up almost exclusively of people saying Kaddish, it is rare to see women who cover their hair, and things like separate swimming hours are almost unheard of.
This means that someone in America who is 100% committed to Halacha may not feel comfortable dressing like and identifying with a community that self-defines itself as lax in Halacha.
(I am well aware that serious MO institutions like Yeshiva University are no no way lax in Halachic observance, however YU does not reflect the norm in many MO communities).
In contrast, the Religious Zionist community in Israel does not define itself by mitzvot that they are lax in, the opposite, it defines itself by mitzvot that they have embraced more than the Charedi community. It is true that RZ includes a wide spectrum, from Dati-lite to Chardal, but someone who is extremely careful about Mitzva observance can find a community in the RZ spectrum where they will feel comfortable, and would not feel the need to wear a hat and jacket to differentiate themselves from a community which does not always embrace halacha the way they do.
True, although bear in mind that such MO exist in Israel as well, called "Dati Lite." As with any trans-country comparisons, I wouldn't say it's exact, of course. And as you say, Religious Zionists in Israel can indeed define themselves positively (as, you say, some but not all American MO do- it might well be easier in Israel).
It isn't that surprising. 40 to 50 years ago, a great number of Orthodox Jews in America were neither Chareidi nor modern. They were somewhere in the middle, staunchly pro-Israel, strict on halacha, respecters of menschlichkeit, in favor of secular studies and college to earn a living, and with a respect for secular studies (outside the question of parnasa) somewhat less than a Torah U'madda standard but much more than Chareidim. Since then a lot of these people became yeshivish, but the old characteristics are not completely gone.
God, when you say "40 to 50" I think 1940's and 50's before realizing I went to elementary school 40 years ago. Anyway, yeah, it was a charedi place, affiliated with Yeshiva Chafetz Chaim (RSA), and while there were no Israeli flags or Yom HaAtzmaut and the like, there was never a word against Israel, and often words in support of it. (That's from the teachers and faculty. The students were mostly a bit more modern at least. We also got a very good secular education, which didn't shy away from anything, evolution, reproduction, Greek mythology, risque topics in modern literature, you name it.) A different time.
What they were were observant Jews as Judaism evolved in America. The replacement of many of our locally developed traditions with one segment of Central and Eastern European ones was not the best thing that could have happened
I think it was disastrous. But for all the good qualities of these middle-of-the-roaders, they lacked a distinctive ideology such as you find with the Chasidim, Yeshivish, right wing Modern Orthodox or Dati Leumi, and that made them susceptible.
It wasn't even being "middle of the road". It was the assumption that anything from Europe had to be superior. My folks were young adults in the post war years. They saw Jewish education largely handed over, reflexive denigration of anything American, and even frankly weird customs like cosplaying medieval antisemites normalized.
Some of the most modest people I know are nudists. And the most brazen woman I ever met was wearing hijab and an abaya. Modesty is a matter of the attitude of the person more than anything which can be measured with a tznius ruler.
Besides being of more mild temperament, American yeshivish also have less skin in the game. They aren't being asked to draft nor are they being supported by the state (unless your father in law is considered the state).
"But the strange thing is that this is the very same magazine which has insisted that charedim should not serve in the IDF and which has gone all-out against those who would diverge from charedi Daas Torah."
Even more strangely, the *very same guy* who rants non-stop about charedim also censors himself to cater to them!
"But when it comes to getting chareidim to buy his Torah Encyclopedia of the Animal Kingdom in significant numbers, these principles are being tossed out the window. Natan Slifkin has often whined over the difficulties involved in trying to find the right wording which will delicately paper over the conflicts between Torah, Chazal and science lest it upset “its broad intended audience”. He desperately needs to (deceptively) portray his Torah Encyclopedia as acceptable for the chareidi community."
Nonsense. You're just playing a game of "gotcha". And you've "gotched" nothing.
It's a encyclopedia, not a manifesto, nor the official organ of a particular ideology. It's an educational endeavor, and promoting a particular ideology is not on the agenda. It's meant to benefit a wide audience, and therefore it was necessary to sidestep contentious issues which would alienate large numbers of people who would otherwise benefit from such material.
Mispacha is not necessarily watering down its hashkafa for the purposes of reeling in a wider audience. It reflects a more open-minded mentality that exists in the American Charedi community. You may deny that open-mindedness, but it flourishes there in the USA and is fledgling here in Israel.
The dissonance between their more broad-minded content of the magazine, and the hashkafa of those whom they revere may be more perceptible to those who know both worlds, and know the gaps between them. I'm not sure why you don't notice that gap.
I don't know what you mean by that. The Hashkafa they present is reflected by the articles they print; and many of those articles are too open-minded to be acceptable in Israel.
Don't be so negative. Be positive and offer an alternative word. Make sure it's pithy, effective, creative, provocative and not boring.
People make up words all the time, James Joyce did it, Dr. Seuss did it and so did James Durante. No crime in that.
I offered a distinction between the magazine and the encyclopedia. Nothing in your response negates that. You got lost in tangential matters. You've lost the plot. Stay focused. Or fwokused if you prefer.
I am not surprised. I don’t get the sense that the Orthodox community in the US is as divided as it seems to be in Israel. There are surely differences in outlook and lifestyle, but it seems people generally respect the differences and get along by focusing on commonalities. It probably has to do with being a small minority among the larger American population.
A big part of it is simply that it's less relevant in America. In Israel either you send your kids to the army or you don't, either you vote for shas and gimmel or you don't, but in America it's more of spectrum.
"In other words, many readers of this magazine are essentially non-charedi in their approach to life, but they identify as charedi!"
More accurately, chareidi means different things to different people. So there is little point in using the term when speaking of large swaths of people. But I get it's much easier for people to just lazily use the term to generously spread out their criticism/hatred without having to carefully specify whom they are referring to.
This is exactly the type of nuanced attitude that's missing among the haredi leadership in Israel. It's why we need so many more American haredim to make aliya -- and why so many won't.
There are several reasons why a Chareidi would view Slifkin's garbage and post. Here's a sample:
1. He wants to know what others outside his community think about him and his friends.
2. He wants to strengthen himself in his Daas Torah, and reading these posts shows him the far-reaching vision Gedolim had banning Slifkin's books - they clearly saw what a no-goodnik he is - something most didn't.
3. He enjoys satire.
4. He's bored, and likes to post for fun.
5. He hopes he can explain his position to confused souls who might actually believe Slifkin's comments.
6. He's a confused soul himself, and thinks reading a confused soul's (i.e. Modox-turned Chareidi-turned DL/anti-Chareidi) comments will somehow make things clearer to him.
Speculation. At the time, two reasons were offered:
1) They were allowed to say it, but we can't
2) They didn't like his tone
Don't make up stuff when people still remember what happened. There were other books that were taken off the shelves. Were those books written by "no-goodniks"?
I remember what happened. I also remember a letter hanging in Yeshiva from Rav Elyashiv to Rav Elya Ber, where he wrote about rumors that he reversed his ban of books that "Mar Nosson Slifkin (no Rabbi there)" - "Ladvarim eilu ein lahem shachar", alright?
As for other books taken off the shelves, well take a look. Reinman's book was banned. He took it like a man, and didn't begin a decades-long attack on Gedolim. His kids are ehrilche Bnei Torah. Kamenetsky's book was banned. He penned "the anatomy of a ban" but was pretty much quiet afterwards. His decendants are Bnei Torah. Slifkin's book was banned. He began a decades-long attack on Gedolim/Chareidim and you can see the results https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/guns-girls-and-gemaras
So tell me, do the Gedolim have a far-reaching vision when they ban a book or not?
Rav Elyashiv was the one who said," They could say it, we cannot." The issue of "tone" was frequently brought up when Rabbi Slifkin and his defenders pointed out the sources which were yet considered kosher.
"As for other books taken off the shelves, well take a look. Reinman's book..."
I wasn't talking about Reinman's book. In any case, it's all irrelevant and offers no evidence proving your speculative notion that " they clearly saw what a no-goodnik he is".
Blah blah blah. You’re an algorithm. Any of your fans can predict with precision and certainty what you are going to say in every situation. Once was original. 1000 times is a greater sin than whining. It’s BORING
Do you think Rabbi Slifkin or any other commentator is here to entertain you, or to tell the public the truth? Maybe you need to get back to Tik Tok and let the adults talk in peace.
American Charedim and Israeli Charedim are "cousins" -- like the city mouse and the country mouse. And as one of the posters pointed out, there is a bit of a split in the US too -- and that could be seen by the reaction to the Washington rally. There apparently was a split among the rabbis -- and the balabatim were not happy either. A good example of this may be the story that R. Slifkin published earlier this year https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/whats-it-got-to-do-with-us
In that story it was noted "some of his audience, to their credit, were apparently shocked and pushed back." -- i assumed that these were Anglos -- but maybe i just made that up.
Another difference is that in my US Yeshivish circles (not Chassidish) -- there are family members who are not Yeshivish. It is very common in Teaneck to see Lakewood/Brooklyn/Monsey cousins. And, it is equally common for people to speak fo their nieces and nephews in Israel -- in the Army. And, except if you are in very select circles -- everyone hear grew up with a postiive view of a Jewish State or the idea of a Jewish State. If you read the weekly HaModia here in the US -- it has the most army and Israel government coverage of any outlet. Its quite good. They interview military analysist, politicians etc. Isnt it Chareidi? Yes. American Chareidi.
One of my sons who is in the IDF told me a story that he was in Chevron very recently. And, he had to man one of the "guard boxes" on Shabbat. He also said that 4 hours to stand in a box is tough -- but people stop to say hi. And, a few American Chasidim stopped to speak with him. They were asking him questions about him, about his service, about Gaza, about the Matzav -- and were very interested and supportive. My son's friends, also soldiers -- but all native Israelis, were confused. They said to my son -- we dont get it -- they are Charedim -- why are they asking all these questions. My son said, "they are not Charedim. They are Americans. Very different."
I read Mishpacha magazine almost every week, and I really think they’re doing a great job supporting our nation, especially since October 7. While some on the far right are hesitant to back the State and our military, Mishpacha has been praising our soldiers for their mesiras nefesh. That should be the norm, but unfortunately, it’s not, so I think they deserve credit for that.
At the same time, they have to stay in line with mainstream Charedi positions to keep their legitimacy in those circles. They haven’t given a lot of space to the issue of the draft and have mostly avoided it, but when it became a big news story, they brought Rabbi Yitzchock Berkowitz for a Q&A and asked some pretty tough questions. Considering the influence of mainstream Charedi society, I think they deserve some points for that.
I agree. Ami. Mishpacha -- and especially US Modia -- which has tons of IDF and Israeli content every week -- including excellent interviews etc. Ocassionally you have to read the party line -- but it feels half hearted.
This is spot on. It is the current disturbing trend in MO/ZO, which is the worship of Rabbunim who would sit shiva if any of their followers became MO.
This is no chiddush. A very large part of what in Eretz Yisroel would be called Charedi population in Flatbush, Monsey, Five Towns, even Lakewood, are NOT Charedi in Israeli terms. They may dress similar, speak similarly, but they are part of the taxpaying workforce, and while Torah is #1 they don't share the same value system as Israeli Charedim. They may not support the Israeli government 100% but they love every soldier, don't hate the chilonim, respect Hesder yeshivas even if they wouldn't send their own kids.. and they don't agree with across the board army exemption... hence why so many have not made aliya despite their love for eretz yisroel. And for many that have it has been socially difficult. They Look Chareidi but arent
My point was not that they are different from charedim. It was that although they are so different, they identify as being part of the same group.
My Point is you are mistaken. Many, many DON'T Identify that way. They just LOOK Charedei, they wear Black Hats, send their kids to Yeshivos that Look Chareidi but they aren't at least not by the Israeli definition. Israel and America in this sense are worlds apart. Your using Israeli labels for a non Israeli product..
They are reading magazines which present charedi hashkafa as the One True Hashkafa. Their pin-ups are Israeli charedi gedolim.
So you are judging who they are by what they read??!! I live in NYC. I vote republican all the time but I read the NY Times, does that make me an anti Israel liberal? And as to the "pinups", they are respecting those gedolim for their achievements in Torah. As an ashkenaz jew, Hanging up a Picture of The Baba
Sali, or Horav Ovadya does not make me sefardi, obligate me to say selichos for a month or allow me to eat rice on pesach!! It just means that I'm hanging a picture of and respecting a Gadol Batorah
maybe consider that you have no idea what you are talking about just like everything else you write about chareidim
Don't you also read Mishpacha magazine? does that make you semi chareidi by your logic? :-)
Well put. I never heard the word chareidi from any American. Its all about more Yeshivish or less Yeshivish. That's it.
Correct. And Yeshivish at least historicaly was a term to distinguish from Blalebatish, Chasidish, etc..
I'd think many zionist orthodox jews in the US would expect chareidim to open more hesder tracks and follow people like Rav Leibel.
He's not mistaken; it's a very true observation and you're quibbling. There is an identity schism where American yeshiva-affiliated Jews identify with Israeli chareidim but are very, very different. It's become far more salient since Oct. 7 and has many doubting their affiliation but the point is very, very valid. It's peculiar sociology that only us strange humans are capable of. If you drew a line threw the American yeshiva community, maybe half would fall on one side (Lakewood and its environs in particular) and half on the other.
And this is why when they move to Israel, they get messed up.
In America, the Orthodox have kind of divided themselves into basically 2 camps - pro-Zionism vs anti-Zionism. The anti-Zionism camp includes both Satmars (Williamsburg, Monroe, some of Monsey) and about half of Lakewood (the Reb Malkiel faction), as well as a few small Chasidishe communities. The pro-Zionism group includes everyone else, including the other half of Lakewood, most of Monsey, Five Towns, Flatbush, Boro Park, etc.
Most of the pro-Zionist camp, and all of the anti-Zionist camp, would be considered Charedi if they lived in Israel. They all follow the Charedi Gedolim.
In the US, the pro-Zionist camp looks down at the anti-Zionist camp, to the extent that Yeshiva World will run pieces against anyone who demonstrates against the State of Israel. But the pro-Zionist camp is still proudly Orthodox.
But when they move to Israel, or even when they stay in the US but are identified as Charedi, they get queasy to be identified with Israeli Charedim, because of the tremendous flak the Israeli charedim get for not going to the army.
However, when members of the pro-Zionist camp in the US are explained the true reason that Charedim in Israel don't go to the army - namely, their concern that their children will become irreligious in the IDF and their refusal to risk even when Neshama - virtually all Orthodox Jews in the US, even the most pro-Zionist, will agree that it is a problem and are very understanding of the refusal to join the IDF.
To prevent these US Jews from getting messed up when they move to Israel, it would help if they were explained the true reason that Charedim will never serve in the IDF. They will be fully understanding. Of course, there are those who want them to get messed up, but if anyone truly cares about these poor Jews, explain to them the true reason.
I take exception to your use of the word "Orthodox", as you neglect to mention Modern Orthodox families in the US (think Riverdale, Teaneck etc etc), whose kids go to dati Leumi Yeshiva/Midrasha gap year programs in Israel (think Har Etzion, Migdal Oz, Midreshet Harova, Lindenbaum) and often stay or return on aliya, serve in the army, and join the dati community in Israel, with little or no disconnect (though I fully agree that American MO is not the same as Israeli dati). They serve in the army, are not messed up, and are generally not understanding of those who don't
They don't get messed up because they fail to appreciate the deep and profound (and dissembling) reasons *you* (but interestingly, not Israeli charedim) give for not serving in the IDF. To the contrary: They get messed up because they *accept* those reasons once they come to Israel, exchanging a healthy, normal view of IDF service with a false, self-serving one. And you would encourage more, and accuse those who don't of doing exactly what you do.
Artscroll once published a memoir of an Orthodox World War II American Army soldier. So apparently service in foreign militaries is OK; Israeli is not. Gosh, I wonder why.
It's not an identity schism, it's that people are more complicated than you think. Slifkin is not very smart and has a tendency to oversimplify, trying to stuff people into neat little boxes marked "friends" and "enemies", and so he gets hopeless confused why Americans are not fitting so nicely into the enemy box.
"More complicated" = "identity schism" See the poem So Many Selves by E.E. Cummings. And stop hiding behind avatars and childish insults.
Not really. People can support and admire others without agreeing with them across the board and without being in a state of "identity schism". It's really quite common.
See the poem "The Dunciad" by Alexander Pope.
The point about Aliya is, there isn't really a community in Israel where us American Jews who "look charedi by the israeli definition" but aren't charedi by the Israeli definition, fit in.
In America, the Orthodox have kind of divided themselves into basically 2 camps - pro-Zionism vs anti-Zionism. The anti-Zionism camp includes both Satmars (Williamsburg, Monroe, some of Monsey) and about half of Lakewood (the Reb Malkiel faction), as well as a few small Chasidishe communities. The pro-Zionism group includes everyone else, including the other half of Lakewood, most of Monsey, Five Towns, Flatbush, Boro Park, etc.
Most of the pro-Zionist camp, and all of the anti-Zionist camp, would be considered Charedi if they lived in Israel. They all follow the Charedi Gedolim.
In the US, the pro-Zionist camp looks down at the anti-Zionist camp, to the extent that Yeshiva World will run pieces against anyone who demonstrates against the State of Israel. But the pro-Zionist camp is still proudly Orthodox.
But when they move to Israel, or even when they stay in the US but are identified as Charedi, they get queasy to be identified with Israeli Charedim, because of the tremendous flak the Israeli charedim get for not going to the army.
However, when members of the pro-Zionist camp in the US are explained the true reason that Charedim in Israel don't go to the army - namely, their concern that their children will become irreligious in the IDF and their refusal to risk even when Neshama - virtually all Orthodox Jews in the US, even the most pro-Zionist, will agree that it is a problem and are very understanding of the refusal to join the IDF.
To prevent these US Jews from getting messed up when they move to Israel, it would help if they were explained the true reason that Charedim will never serve in the IDF. They will be fully understanding. Of course, there are those who want them to get messed up, but if anyone truly cares about these poor Jews, explain to them the true reason.
They don't get messed up because they fail to appreciate the deep and profound (and dissembling) reasons *you* (but interestingly, not Israeli charedim) give for not serving in the IDF. To the contrary: They get messed up because they *accept* those reasons once they come to Israel, exchanging a healthy, normal view of IDF service with a false, self-serving one. And you would encourage more, and accuse those who don't of doing exactly what you do.
Artscroll once published a memoir of an Orthodox World War II American Army soldier. So apparently service in foreign militaries is OK; Israeli is not. Gosh, I wonder why.
Clearly the black hat community in the US does not correspond to the Charedi community in Israel, even if they dress similar. One of the reasons for this may be that the Modern Orthodox community in the US does not correspond to the Religious Zionist community in Israel, even if they dress similar.
I have heard people who identify as Modern Orthodox in North America state that in their mind the definition of MO is that you do not have to be so careful in Mitzva observance. A very significant percentage of people who identify as MO are not careful about specific mitzvot. There are entire communities where the weekday minyan is made up almost exclusively of people saying Kaddish, it is rare to see women who cover their hair, and things like separate swimming hours are almost unheard of.
This means that someone in America who is 100% committed to Halacha may not feel comfortable dressing like and identifying with a community that self-defines itself as lax in Halacha.
(I am well aware that serious MO institutions like Yeshiva University are no no way lax in Halachic observance, however YU does not reflect the norm in many MO communities).
In contrast, the Religious Zionist community in Israel does not define itself by mitzvot that they are lax in, the opposite, it defines itself by mitzvot that they have embraced more than the Charedi community. It is true that RZ includes a wide spectrum, from Dati-lite to Chardal, but someone who is extremely careful about Mitzva observance can find a community in the RZ spectrum where they will feel comfortable, and would not feel the need to wear a hat and jacket to differentiate themselves from a community which does not always embrace halacha the way they do.
True, although bear in mind that such MO exist in Israel as well, called "Dati Lite." As with any trans-country comparisons, I wouldn't say it's exact, of course. And as you say, Religious Zionists in Israel can indeed define themselves positively (as, you say, some but not all American MO do- it might well be easier in Israel).
It isn't that surprising. 40 to 50 years ago, a great number of Orthodox Jews in America were neither Chareidi nor modern. They were somewhere in the middle, staunchly pro-Israel, strict on halacha, respecters of menschlichkeit, in favor of secular studies and college to earn a living, and with a respect for secular studies (outside the question of parnasa) somewhat less than a Torah U'madda standard but much more than Chareidim. Since then a lot of these people became yeshivish, but the old characteristics are not completely gone.
God, when you say "40 to 50" I think 1940's and 50's before realizing I went to elementary school 40 years ago. Anyway, yeah, it was a charedi place, affiliated with Yeshiva Chafetz Chaim (RSA), and while there were no Israeli flags or Yom HaAtzmaut and the like, there was never a word against Israel, and often words in support of it. (That's from the teachers and faculty. The students were mostly a bit more modern at least. We also got a very good secular education, which didn't shy away from anything, evolution, reproduction, Greek mythology, risque topics in modern literature, you name it.) A different time.
What they were were observant Jews as Judaism evolved in America. The replacement of many of our locally developed traditions with one segment of Central and Eastern European ones was not the best thing that could have happened
I think it was disastrous. But for all the good qualities of these middle-of-the-roaders, they lacked a distinctive ideology such as you find with the Chasidim, Yeshivish, right wing Modern Orthodox or Dati Leumi, and that made them susceptible.
It wasn't even being "middle of the road". It was the assumption that anything from Europe had to be superior. My folks were young adults in the post war years. They saw Jewish education largely handed over, reflexive denigration of anything American, and even frankly weird customs like cosplaying medieval antisemites normalized.
Goes to show that an excess of modesty can be a serious fault. Also gullibility.
Some of the most modest people I know are nudists. And the most brazen woman I ever met was wearing hijab and an abaya. Modesty is a matter of the attitude of the person more than anything which can be measured with a tznius ruler.
I was referring to lack of ego, not tznius.
Oh, it was longer ago than that. My husband's grandfather & all his group were members of Agudas Israel in Chicago, and they identified as Zionists.
Besides being of more mild temperament, American yeshivish also have less skin in the game. They aren't being asked to draft nor are they being supported by the state (unless your father in law is considered the state).
"But the strange thing is that this is the very same magazine which has insisted that charedim should not serve in the IDF and which has gone all-out against those who would diverge from charedi Daas Torah."
Even more strangely, the *very same guy* who rants non-stop about charedim also censors himself to cater to them!
https://slifkinchallenge.blogspot.com/2015/03/selling-out.html
"But when it comes to getting chareidim to buy his Torah Encyclopedia of the Animal Kingdom in significant numbers, these principles are being tossed out the window. Natan Slifkin has often whined over the difficulties involved in trying to find the right wording which will delicately paper over the conflicts between Torah, Chazal and science lest it upset “its broad intended audience”. He desperately needs to (deceptively) portray his Torah Encyclopedia as acceptable for the chareidi community."
Why is that a contradiction?
Yes, why?
I didn't use the word contradiction. I simply pointed to your own 'strange' behavior in the same way you pointed to Mishpacha's.
Nonsense. You're just playing a game of "gotcha". And you've "gotched" nothing.
It's a encyclopedia, not a manifesto, nor the official organ of a particular ideology. It's an educational endeavor, and promoting a particular ideology is not on the agenda. It's meant to benefit a wide audience, and therefore it was necessary to sidestep contentious issues which would alienate large numbers of people who would otherwise benefit from such material.
Mispacha is not necessarily watering down its hashkafa for the purposes of reeling in a wider audience. It reflects a more open-minded mentality that exists in the American Charedi community. You may deny that open-mindedness, but it flourishes there in the USA and is fledgling here in Israel.
The dissonance between their more broad-minded content of the magazine, and the hashkafa of those whom they revere may be more perceptible to those who know both worlds, and know the gaps between them. I'm not sure why you don't notice that gap.
Nachum, not just the hashkafa of those they revere - it's the very hashkafah that the magazine itself presents!
I don't know what you mean by that. The Hashkafa they present is reflected by the articles they print; and many of those articles are too open-minded to be acceptable in Israel.
"And you've "gotched" nothing."
No need to make up words.
"You may deny that open-mindedness,"
I don't deny anything. I'm pretty open-minded myself. I even read this site!
"but it flourishes there in the USA and is fledgling here in Israel."
Oh, I'm sure. If it was emerging in 2012 https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/making-of-post-haredim it must be burgeoning by now. And with the death of kollel kicking in, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/kollel-1943-2020 it must have become a veritable tsunami.
The irony of beating up on charedim as out of touch with reality is truly awe-inspiring.
"No need to make up words. "
Don't be so negative. Be positive and offer an alternative word. Make sure it's pithy, effective, creative, provocative and not boring.
People make up words all the time, James Joyce did it, Dr. Seuss did it and so did James Durante. No crime in that.
I offered a distinction between the magazine and the encyclopedia. Nothing in your response negates that. You got lost in tangential matters. You've lost the plot. Stay focused. Or fwokused if you prefer.
Oh, so you just took the opportunity to use your mad net-trawling skillz to make an unrelated attack on the host of this site. Nice!
It wasn't unrelated.
In mathematics, it's called proof by contradiction.
In all other fields, it's called being silly.
It's called reductio ad absurdum.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/joy-amidst-pain/comment/67790586
A lot of it is different people and mishpacha just tries to cater to both
Welcome to Monsey, Lakewood and Ramat Beit Shemesh
I am not surprised. I don’t get the sense that the Orthodox community in the US is as divided as it seems to be in Israel. There are surely differences in outlook and lifestyle, but it seems people generally respect the differences and get along by focusing on commonalities. It probably has to do with being a small minority among the larger American population.
A big part of it is simply that it's less relevant in America. In Israel either you send your kids to the army or you don't, either you vote for shas and gimmel or you don't, but in America it's more of spectrum.
"In other words, many readers of this magazine are essentially non-charedi in their approach to life, but they identify as charedi!"
More accurately, chareidi means different things to different people. So there is little point in using the term when speaking of large swaths of people. But I get it's much easier for people to just lazily use the term to generously spread out their criticism/hatred without having to carefully specify whom they are referring to.
This is exactly the type of nuanced attitude that's missing among the haredi leadership in Israel. It's why we need so many more American haredim to make aliya -- and why so many won't.
The problem is that they don't have a clear hashkafic identity, so when they make aliyah, they just get sucked into charedi hashkafa.
Or become "New charedim" and have absolutely no influence on the mainstream anyway.
"We want to hear how you got through this year"
That will be easy for you, Natan. Just point to about 100 posts you wrote blasting Chareidim...
Also not sure what the American Yeshivish-lite crowd consists of. Not sure you do either..
And yet you're still here.
Why?
For the thrill of pouncing?
There are several reasons why a Chareidi would view Slifkin's garbage and post. Here's a sample:
1. He wants to know what others outside his community think about him and his friends.
2. He wants to strengthen himself in his Daas Torah, and reading these posts shows him the far-reaching vision Gedolim had banning Slifkin's books - they clearly saw what a no-goodnik he is - something most didn't.
3. He enjoys satire.
4. He's bored, and likes to post for fun.
5. He hopes he can explain his position to confused souls who might actually believe Slifkin's comments.
6. He's a confused soul himself, and thinks reading a confused soul's (i.e. Modox-turned Chareidi-turned DL/anti-Chareidi) comments will somehow make things clearer to him.
" they clearly saw what a no-goodnik he is"
Speculation. At the time, two reasons were offered:
1) They were allowed to say it, but we can't
2) They didn't like his tone
Don't make up stuff when people still remember what happened. There were other books that were taken off the shelves. Were those books written by "no-goodniks"?
I remember what happened. I also remember a letter hanging in Yeshiva from Rav Elyashiv to Rav Elya Ber, where he wrote about rumors that he reversed his ban of books that "Mar Nosson Slifkin (no Rabbi there)" - "Ladvarim eilu ein lahem shachar", alright?
As for other books taken off the shelves, well take a look. Reinman's book was banned. He took it like a man, and didn't begin a decades-long attack on Gedolim. His kids are ehrilche Bnei Torah. Kamenetsky's book was banned. He penned "the anatomy of a ban" but was pretty much quiet afterwards. His decendants are Bnei Torah. Slifkin's book was banned. He began a decades-long attack on Gedolim/Chareidim and you can see the results https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/guns-girls-and-gemaras
So tell me, do the Gedolim have a far-reaching vision when they ban a book or not?
"He took it like a man" Lol. Like a man with kids in Shidduchim.
As for the Gedolim's "far reaching vision," they didn't exactly have far-reaching vision when they endorsed Leib Tropper and Yona Metzger.
Rav Elyashiv was the one who said," They could say it, we cannot." The issue of "tone" was frequently brought up when Rabbi Slifkin and his defenders pointed out the sources which were yet considered kosher.
"As for other books taken off the shelves, well take a look. Reinman's book..."
I wasn't talking about Reinman's book. In any case, it's all irrelevant and offers no evidence proving your speculative notion that " they clearly saw what a no-goodnik he is".
Napoleon, thank you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex
Non-sequitur, thank you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(literary_device)
Actually not, jealous, obsessed, self-aggrandizing little man.
Sorry to tell you that your comments only serve to reinforce Slifkin's stereotypes about the haredi world.
You're delusional, given that you imagine you're helping your cause, rather than feeding your own ego and frustrations.
Amazing how you resort to childish insults. You really can't respond normally, can you?
Once again the pedant in me must point out that Napoleon was not in fact short.
Blah blah blah. You’re an algorithm. Any of your fans can predict with precision and certainty what you are going to say in every situation. Once was original. 1000 times is a greater sin than whining. It’s BORING
And yet you're still here.
Why?
For the thrill of pouncing?
I guess
Do you think Rabbi Slifkin or any other commentator is here to entertain you, or to tell the public the truth? Maybe you need to get back to Tik Tok and let the adults talk in peace.
What’s tic tok
Oh, to be so innocent......
I figured it out. This blog is for like minded readers .
In short, Rabbi Slick in has consistent principles and values. For some reason this bothers you
"consistent principles and values"
Which period of his life is consistent? His youth, yeshiva years, kollel years, pre-book ban, post-book ban? Which one?
I dont have much to add.
American Charedim and Israeli Charedim are "cousins" -- like the city mouse and the country mouse. And as one of the posters pointed out, there is a bit of a split in the US too -- and that could be seen by the reaction to the Washington rally. There apparently was a split among the rabbis -- and the balabatim were not happy either. A good example of this may be the story that R. Slifkin published earlier this year https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/whats-it-got-to-do-with-us
In that story it was noted "some of his audience, to their credit, were apparently shocked and pushed back." -- i assumed that these were Anglos -- but maybe i just made that up.
Another difference is that in my US Yeshivish circles (not Chassidish) -- there are family members who are not Yeshivish. It is very common in Teaneck to see Lakewood/Brooklyn/Monsey cousins. And, it is equally common for people to speak fo their nieces and nephews in Israel -- in the Army. And, except if you are in very select circles -- everyone hear grew up with a postiive view of a Jewish State or the idea of a Jewish State. If you read the weekly HaModia here in the US -- it has the most army and Israel government coverage of any outlet. Its quite good. They interview military analysist, politicians etc. Isnt it Chareidi? Yes. American Chareidi.
One of my sons who is in the IDF told me a story that he was in Chevron very recently. And, he had to man one of the "guard boxes" on Shabbat. He also said that 4 hours to stand in a box is tough -- but people stop to say hi. And, a few American Chasidim stopped to speak with him. They were asking him questions about him, about his service, about Gaza, about the Matzav -- and were very interested and supportive. My son's friends, also soldiers -- but all native Israelis, were confused. They said to my son -- we dont get it -- they are Charedim -- why are they asking all these questions. My son said, "they are not Charedim. They are Americans. Very different."
I meant "many US" not "my US".
This was eye opening and helpful for me. Yeshivish exactly describes my brother and his family, clearly not charedi. Thank you
I read Mishpacha magazine almost every week, and I really think they’re doing a great job supporting our nation, especially since October 7. While some on the far right are hesitant to back the State and our military, Mishpacha has been praising our soldiers for their mesiras nefesh. That should be the norm, but unfortunately, it’s not, so I think they deserve credit for that.
At the same time, they have to stay in line with mainstream Charedi positions to keep their legitimacy in those circles. They haven’t given a lot of space to the issue of the draft and have mostly avoided it, but when it became a big news story, they brought Rabbi Yitzchock Berkowitz for a Q&A and asked some pretty tough questions. Considering the influence of mainstream Charedi society, I think they deserve some points for that.
I agree. Ami. Mishpacha -- and especially US Modia -- which has tons of IDF and Israeli content every week -- including excellent interviews etc. Ocassionally you have to read the party line -- but it feels half hearted.
This is spot on. It is the current disturbing trend in MO/ZO, which is the worship of Rabbunim who would sit shiva if any of their followers became MO.