This is what makes R' Yosef's statement of "we'll all just leave" so ironic: the chareidim are the ones are least able to emigrate. They're much less likely to have a foreign passport than secular people in Tel Aviv, they have no marketable skills, they have large families, and they don't have the money needed to emigrate
Even for those of us with foreign passports, over the past 6 months many of the countries that we have come from have made it abundantly clear that we are not welcome there
Just to be a little nitpicky, you may have another country to go to, but it's not your country. Jews have a talent for thinking that they don't stand out and are part and parcel of their diaspora lands; they never are.
Rabbi J. David Bleich wrote an article many years ago about the problem of "changing" neighborhoods, where often the well-to-do flee, leaving behind the elderly etc. He quoted the Lubavitcher Rebbe and Reb Moshe Feinstein that there actually is an obligation for those able to leave, to try and stay, so as not to abandon those who cannot leave.
"Israel has not yet been, and still is not, the safest place in the world for Jews. But not everyone has the option to live in the safest place in the world - many people just need somewhere that is safer than where they currently live. And in any case, having a homeland is not about attaining the greatest safety - it is about having a home, a place that Jews historically belong, a place that Jews can always come to when they fear persecution or experience discrimination, where we can take responsibility for our own safety, and where we can put being Jewish into action and expression."
This is all very nice, but the idea that Israel is safer than anywhere else is completely irrational, as irrational as it gets. In fact, in 2024, it seems to be one of the least safe places for Jews. And all your talk about "having a home, a place that Jews historically belong, a place that Jews can always come to when they fear persecution or experience discrimination, where we can take responsibility for our own safety, and where we can put being Jewish into action and expression" is also completely irrational, it's just overwrought nationalist sentiment on steroids. So much for "Rationalist Judaism". You should just give up and call it "Nationalist Judaism". But the main problem with all this is not that you are simply wrong, but that you have replaced Judaism with some form of secular nationalism. This is one of the main chareidi objections to Zionism.
Natan, this State of Israel business doesn't seem to be working out too well right now. In rational terms at least, there doesn't seem to be much of a future here for us. I wonder when did you latch onto this ideology? Was it only a result of what haredi rabbis and askanim did to you, so you needed to join another group? California should have been a better option, no? Doesn't seem right now that you put much rational thought into that.
"And in any case, having a homeland is not about attaining the greatest safety - it is about having a home, a place that Jews historically belong, a place that Jews can always come to when they fear persecution or experience discrimination, where we can take responsibility for our own safety, and where we can put being Jewish into action and expression."
This sort of rah-rah Jewish-Agency-speak might work for some segment of world Jewry, but it's hardly convincing to anyone who doesn't buy into the idea in the first place.
The geulah will be the greatest happiness because living among the umot haolam is a tremendous misfortune for us. Even in Eretz Yisroel we live among Jewish goyim.
And therefore, today the galut is weighing on our minds and neshomot; we’re imprisoned by gentile attitudes. Of course, we learn Torah and that helps to free the mind from all the wickedness and foolishness. But no matter, all around us the avirah, the atmosphere, is saturated with shtuyot and lies and it has an effect!
Evolution, liberalism – you see how silly their ways are, and how they are ruining themselves because of all these lies. And the problem is that we live among them, and we are being spoiled too.
It is a tremendous loss for us; that’s what galut means. But not only suffering physically – even if they are good to us and will tolerate us, and we are thankful and respectful, but it's worse.
When they persecuted us that was the wall between them and us. But when they gave us liberty and tolerance, that was the worst gezeirah; worse than the gezeirah of Hitler. Historically millions went lost because of the toleration and equality!
In the good old days when the Jews were in ghettos we couldn’t mix. When a Jew went out into the street, they spat on him and they threw him into the gutter. A terrible thing, but the result was that the Jew had no desire to mix. Thus, the galut today is worse than it was once upon a time. We’re more in a galut today than ever!
And once upon a time we only had galut among goyim; today we are in galut among yidden too. In Eretz Yisroel, we are in galut among the reshaim. In America we’re in galut among the reformers and the amei ha’aretz. It’s a galutl
Of-course we do our best to fight against spoiling, but it is a very great galut.
Why should a rabbi seem enamered with female singers and composers - who I believe are not even shomrei Torah umitzvot, based on a quick google check?
And again, since no reply, isn't it better for an orthodox Jew who titles himself rabbi to not link to a video with kol Isha issues?
Nachum please quickly point out a grammatical error in my typing or comment that my hormones are clearly raging because that really answers the questions masterfully and is not remotely a deflection by the less talented.
We've lost our land multiple times (with the destruction of the Israelite and Judean kingdoms, and the collapse of the Hasmonean state), and we're at risk of losing it again. This doesn't mean all Jews will be cast into the sea. Some will perish, some may convert to Islam, and the rest will likely be marginalized as second-class citizens.
One thing is certain, particularly after the events of October 7th: Israel isn't ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו, despite any messianic beliefs.
Nothing to disagree with here, but this is not an approach that will work. Many of the Israelis who have the economic skills needed to keep the country afloat do have other options and will take them despite the fact they risk their lives now to fight this war. The fact that the RZ have been taken over by Kahanists and entered the govt (+ Netanyahu’s various indictments) means that a forever war against the Arabs is now in the interests of those in charge. One thing that is going to need to be done is to take the country back from those who have an agenda other than making Israel a safe place to live, whether those people are Charedi, RZ or those being prosecuted.
This is what makes R' Yosef's statement of "we'll all just leave" so ironic: the chareidim are the ones are least able to emigrate. They're much less likely to have a foreign passport than secular people in Tel Aviv, they have no marketable skills, they have large families, and they don't have the money needed to emigrate
Even for those of us with foreign passports, over the past 6 months many of the countries that we have come from have made it abundantly clear that we are not welcome there
Just to be a little nitpicky, you may have another country to go to, but it's not your country. Jews have a talent for thinking that they don't stand out and are part and parcel of their diaspora lands; they never are.
Rabbi J. David Bleich wrote an article many years ago about the problem of "changing" neighborhoods, where often the well-to-do flee, leaving behind the elderly etc. He quoted the Lubavitcher Rebbe and Reb Moshe Feinstein that there actually is an obligation for those able to leave, to try and stay, so as not to abandon those who cannot leave.
"Israel has not yet been, and still is not, the safest place in the world for Jews. But not everyone has the option to live in the safest place in the world - many people just need somewhere that is safer than where they currently live. And in any case, having a homeland is not about attaining the greatest safety - it is about having a home, a place that Jews historically belong, a place that Jews can always come to when they fear persecution or experience discrimination, where we can take responsibility for our own safety, and where we can put being Jewish into action and expression."
This is all very nice, but the idea that Israel is safer than anywhere else is completely irrational, as irrational as it gets. In fact, in 2024, it seems to be one of the least safe places for Jews. And all your talk about "having a home, a place that Jews historically belong, a place that Jews can always come to when they fear persecution or experience discrimination, where we can take responsibility for our own safety, and where we can put being Jewish into action and expression" is also completely irrational, it's just overwrought nationalist sentiment on steroids. So much for "Rationalist Judaism". You should just give up and call it "Nationalist Judaism". But the main problem with all this is not that you are simply wrong, but that you have replaced Judaism with some form of secular nationalism. This is one of the main chareidi objections to Zionism.
Natan, this State of Israel business doesn't seem to be working out too well right now. In rational terms at least, there doesn't seem to be much of a future here for us. I wonder when did you latch onto this ideology? Was it only a result of what haredi rabbis and askanim did to you, so you needed to join another group? California should have been a better option, no? Doesn't seem right now that you put much rational thought into that.
"And in any case, having a homeland is not about attaining the greatest safety - it is about having a home, a place that Jews historically belong, a place that Jews can always come to when they fear persecution or experience discrimination, where we can take responsibility for our own safety, and where we can put being Jewish into action and expression."
This sort of rah-rah Jewish-Agency-speak might work for some segment of world Jewry, but it's hardly convincing to anyone who doesn't buy into the idea in the first place.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/pure-gold/comment/18304433
Thanks for linking to a YouTube clip with ladies singing. Is that a rabbi thing to do?
Did you do that because you imagine it spites Jewish men who avoid that wrongfulness? It doesn't. It just makes you look immature.
The geulah will be the greatest happiness because living among the umot haolam is a tremendous misfortune for us. Even in Eretz Yisroel we live among Jewish goyim.
And therefore, today the galut is weighing on our minds and neshomot; we’re imprisoned by gentile attitudes. Of course, we learn Torah and that helps to free the mind from all the wickedness and foolishness. But no matter, all around us the avirah, the atmosphere, is saturated with shtuyot and lies and it has an effect!
Evolution, liberalism – you see how silly their ways are, and how they are ruining themselves because of all these lies. And the problem is that we live among them, and we are being spoiled too.
It is a tremendous loss for us; that’s what galut means. But not only suffering physically – even if they are good to us and will tolerate us, and we are thankful and respectful, but it's worse.
When they persecuted us that was the wall between them and us. But when they gave us liberty and tolerance, that was the worst gezeirah; worse than the gezeirah of Hitler. Historically millions went lost because of the toleration and equality!
In the good old days when the Jews were in ghettos we couldn’t mix. When a Jew went out into the street, they spat on him and they threw him into the gutter. A terrible thing, but the result was that the Jew had no desire to mix. Thus, the galut today is worse than it was once upon a time. We’re more in a galut today than ever!
And once upon a time we only had galut among goyim; today we are in galut among yidden too. In Eretz Yisroel, we are in galut among the reshaim. In America we’re in galut among the reformers and the amei ha’aretz. It’s a galutl
Of-course we do our best to fight against spoiling, but it is a very great galut.
Why should a rabbi seem enamered with female singers and composers - who I believe are not even shomrei Torah umitzvot, based on a quick google check?
And again, since no reply, isn't it better for an orthodox Jew who titles himself rabbi to not link to a video with kol Isha issues?
Nachum please quickly point out a grammatical error in my typing or comment that my hormones are clearly raging because that really answers the questions masterfully and is not remotely a deflection by the less talented.
We've lost our land multiple times (with the destruction of the Israelite and Judean kingdoms, and the collapse of the Hasmonean state), and we're at risk of losing it again. This doesn't mean all Jews will be cast into the sea. Some will perish, some may convert to Islam, and the rest will likely be marginalized as second-class citizens.
One thing is certain, particularly after the events of October 7th: Israel isn't ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו, despite any messianic beliefs.
Gali Atari?
This is the only land given to us by God
how pessimistic of you
Her name is Atari
Nothing to disagree with here, but this is not an approach that will work. Many of the Israelis who have the economic skills needed to keep the country afloat do have other options and will take them despite the fact they risk their lives now to fight this war. The fact that the RZ have been taken over by Kahanists and entered the govt (+ Netanyahu’s various indictments) means that a forever war against the Arabs is now in the interests of those in charge. One thing that is going to need to be done is to take the country back from those who have an agenda other than making Israel a safe place to live, whether those people are Charedi, RZ or those being prosecuted.