Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Marty Bluke's avatar

You should listen to this podcast with Rav Moshe Taragin https://overcast.fm/+AAede9LlYps. He is a long time Ram in the hesder yeshiva in Gush Etzion and is a proud religious Zionist. And yet, he doesn’t feel the need to bash Haredim, express hate for them etc. In fact he says that he respects them and that they are doing something that his community (the dati leumi community) isn’t by focusing exclusively on Torah. He has a much healthier perspective on Haredim than what is expressed here.

Expand full comment
Ezra Skeire's avatar

Rabbi Slifkin, you make some good points, but you also make quite a few mistakes which nullify your main message.

First of all, what is your main message? You pull quite the hook and sinker here. First you prove from pesukim that Shaul and Yonasan trained for battle. Then you extrapolate from there A. that the view of chareidim of hishtadlus being a smokescreen is incorrect. B. that it was not the zechus of Torah that assisted them in war. Although you start with A, I believe your main message is B. But both of these messages fail. A. fails because the fact that Shaul and Yonosan did hishtadlus does not in any way disprove the chareidi view of hishtadlus. I am mystified that anybody could think that it does. The chareidi view of hishtadlus is that it must be performed. That includes military training. But the real power behind a victory is Hashem, based on the spiritual status of the nation. So the pesukim speak in no way to the chareidi viewpoint. In fac they are entirely irrelevant.

B. fails much harder, because the pesukim are not talking about the merit of Torah. We know about the merit of Torah from many other places.

So your evidence completely fails to support either of your messages.

You also make a mistake when you say the Torah discusses battle, but not yeshivos. This only makes sense if one accepts the תורה שבכתב but not the תורה שבעל פה, which discusses yeshivos in hundreds of places. But surely we are not dealing with Tzedukkim or Karaim here! The Torah discusses yeshivos ad nauseum, and speaks in places about the merit of Torah protecting the Jewish people. See here. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect

Expand full comment
205 more comments...

No posts