You should listen to this podcast with Rav Moshe Taragin https://overcast.fm/+AAede9LlYps. He is a long time Ram in the hesder yeshiva in Gush Etzion and is a proud religious Zionist. And yet, he doesn’t feel the need to bash Haredim, express hate for them etc. In fact he says that he respects them and that they are doing something that his community (the dati leumi community) isn’t by focusing exclusively on Torah. He has a much healthier perspective on Haredim than what is expressed here.
It's not rational to believe that keeping your children from a basic general education and making army service tabu will "protect" them from the temptations of the secular world. There is no ghetto deep enough to isolate anyone any longer.
Also, the characterl damage to young men by not serving in the IDF while their people and even their own families are literally being slaughtered, is immense. Such "boys" (that's what they are called) never become men. Even after marriage, they become spiritual, moral, and physical eunuchs who never develop traditional masculine virtues, despite the technical ability to produce fertile offspring. All their testosterone is wasted in violent political deminstrations, vandalism, aggression against women, and now, trolling online.
I don't recall talking about education. I was referring to army service.
The fact is that charedim in Israel continue to live in a very sheltered ghetto whether we like it or not. And they will continue to bring up their children that way. They will never allow their children to join the IDF (in its current makeup) because they don't want them to leave the ghetto.
Theoretically, as haredim have told us for years, they can do whatever they want as long as it's not illegal. But many of those of us who have been paying extra for their free ride will no longer agree to do so.
I haven't heard that one yet. Why is it immoral to shelter your children from any outside influence, especially if you believe that the influence is sexual in nature and therefore is included in yahareg v'al yaavor?
I'm not saying they're right for thinking that joining the IDF is included in yahareg v'al yaavor, but if they believe that it is, why is it immoral?
Maybe stupid, foolish, ignorant, wrong, silly, etc. But immoral?
Why? What if you're 95 years old and can't serve? What if you're disabled and can't serve? What if you have brain cancer and can't serve? What if you're the Ramatkal and don't serve on the front lines? What if you're a Supreme Court justice and don't serve? Are you immoral for not putting yourself in harm's way and instead asking others to defend you?
Charedim believe they have a disability - the need for their children to remain religious at all costs. They simply are not able to join the IDF - its not an option for them to allow their children to become irreligious.
Good point. Should have been "Letting other people risk death for you, while you yourself are capable of risking death similarly but aren't doing so, is immoral". Also, establishing or justifying a society that expects other people to risk death for it, while refusing to allow those of its members, who can risk death similarly, also risk death, is immoral. And believing you have a disability doesn't mean you really have a disability. Just like the Nazi belief that the Jews were an existential danger to the human race didn't make the Jews an existential danger to the human race.
This has been explained over and over again. The problem is when an entire community refuses to serve. My 95 year old mother does not serve, but her grandchildren do.
Because it isn't immoral. True, you cannot take a chareidi today and stick him in the army. But if the charedi 'leadership' really wanted to behave morally, they would start now to change the system, so that in 20 years chareidim could have roles in the army compatible with their lifestyle, taking pressure of other parts of the army. But chraredi leadership is not interested in changing the system - and that is immoral.
Chareidim worldwide have no problem in interacting with non-Jews, irreligious women when it comes to business. All over the world. Nobody is worried about immorality in that case Money is money after all.
Can beliefs be immoral? Agree or not but the claim that the blog host is making is that putting your children's spirituality over the safety of the nation is selfish and that the moral option is always to fight off our enemies and protect the lives of our wives, children, and fellow citizens.
"Agree or not but the claim that the blog host is making is that putting your children's spirituality over the safety of the nation is selfish and that the moral option is always to fight off our enemies and protect the lives of our wives, children, and fellow citizens."
I do not believe the blog host is making that claim, since it goes against basic Jewish tenets. Yahareg v'al yaavor is a very real part of Judaism, and the blog host would never say what you claim he said.
He seems to have said it multiple times. Maybe it's between that and a combination of the fact that it's hard to imaging a yeshiva bachur will actually sleep around in the army because it's not allowed acc to army rules and the claims are highly exaggerated. The אביזרים דעריות claims realistically are more "ענייני קדושה" such as shmirat eiynayim etc which the blog host would surely claim are negligible and not worth the "moral stain" of not sharing the burden. (RDNS, please correct me if I'm wrong).
Why is it immoral to shelter your children from any outside influence, especially if you believe that the influence is sexual in nature and therefore is included in yahareg v'al yaavor? -- again, this makes no sense at all.
I have a hunch David is on to something, though. IDF training and service is really tough and scary mentally, physically. One can understand the hesitancy to do it that lurks subconsciously under the surface of these other claims.
Mark Rosenberg, I have decided that you are in the category of trolls. You post the same video link over and over and over again, you keep saying the same thing over and over and over again even after people refute what you say. Goodbye.
Lol. They'll do it anyway. Since when has that stopped them? In 50 years they will be the majority in the State and will control the entire government.
Despite the growth in the haredi population, representation of haredi parties in the Knesset remains stable. Not even haredim trust haredi parties to run things.
Interesting. According to most fear mongers, charedim will be the majority in Israel very soon and collapse the economy. I'm sure when that happens, they will figure out how to turn the IDF into a charedi organization.
The idea of "focusing exclusively on Torah study" is not a requirement of the Torah itself. Haredi Judaism, in its current form, is a relatively recent development and stands in contrast to the Jewish biblical tradition, where everyone was obligated to work, fight, and study Torah—not mysticism or endless Talmudic debate—in order to fulfill the commandments. Nothing more, nothing less. This exclusive focus on Torah study is unnecessary and could be likened to a sect that chooses to concentrate solely on separating challah or reciting 100 blessings throughout the day.
I'm glad you seem to know what chochmas yevonis is, nobody else does.
Talk about charedi cherry picking sources - How do you think the tanoi'im picked up their parnossoh skills - how to be a shoemaker doesn't just fall into your head....
The point was not חכמת יונית. What חכמת יונית is is completely irrelevant to the point. The point was that the חיוב to learn Torah is ever present. There is no time to waste. Learning a trade is not wasting time and therefore permitted. But see the Rambam I quoted, working person should work 3 hours a day and learn Torah 9 hours a day.
Read the gemoroh carefully without chareid kvetching. Words mean things. We know from other places in Shas that Chazal had a particular hatred of chochmas yevonis. You have no way of knowing what Rabbi Yishmoel would have answered had the question been "Can I go on a course and learn all that goyshe apikorsihe medical science stuff for a week so I can join hatzolo and save lives?"
Anyway, you clearly don't hold that gemoroh halochoh l'maseh because you are blogging away. And it's not codified anywhere as halocho l'maseh.
And you haven't dealt with the cherry picking of sources. Like all of torah, full of contradictions, and I can find plenty of contradictory souces should I be bothered and have a few hours to spare.
Then again, in order to find that astronomical moment of twilight zone between day and night, you'd need a lot of secular study. It means that the obligation to avoid secular study entirely only kicks in when one has already mastered secular wisdom. The fulfillment of צֵא וּבְדוֹק requires graduate level education.
Yes, the Talmudic sages can be seen as the spiritual predecessors of the Haredim. However, their prohibitions against studying foreign languages or sciences were not rooted in the Torah but stemmed from their own subjective ideology. Similarly, modern Haredi rabbis forbid a wide range of things, such as using the internet, women obtaining driving licenses, wearing wigs, and reading books by Rabbi Slifkin. No, these prohibitions were not given to Moshe on Mount Sinai.
Look at the Rambam in the first chapter of hilchos Talmud Torah.
כל איש מישראל חייב בתלמוד תורה, בין עני בין עשיר, בין שלם בגופו בין בעל ייסורין, בין בחור בין שהיה זקן גדול שתשש כוחו. אפילו עני המחזרא על הפתחים, ואפילו בעל אשה ובנים, חייב לקבוע לו זמן לתלמוד תורה ביום ובלילה, שנאמר ״והגית בו יומם ולילה״
And then the Rambam describes how much working person should learn.
כיצד, היה בעל אומנות, והיה עוסק במלאכה שלש שעות ביום ובתורה תשע
The Rambam says a person who works should work 3 hours a day and learn Torah 9 hours a day.
You completely missed the point. The point is that we see that learning Torah as much as you can is what hashem wants from a person. The details change based on the Times but the principle doesn’t. תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם.
The Talmudic sages as you call them are the basis of Judaism. They are the Baalei Mesora. To say they made things up is quite a statement.
We are not Karites. We don’t live based on what is written in tanach. We live based on the Torah Shebaal peh which is expressed in the Gemara. Rav Soloveitchik, the spiritual patron of modern orthodoxy would have considered your statement to be apikorsus.
I think Torah study is a requirement of The Torah: specifically, The Shemah says: They ( The Mitzvot) shall be “to fill in” TOS-Afos (an ancient word which connotes totes) between your eyes ( your brain which has four sections). So the idea is the Mitzvot are to be thought about all the time and discussed wherever you go.
In the Book of Joshua, God commands him: "Let not this Book of the Teaching cease from your lips, but recite it day and night, so that you may observe faithfully all that is written in it." However, throughout the book, Joshua is portrayed not as a yeshiva student, but as a busy warrior and commander. This suggests a practical interpretation: we are required to study the Torah every day, but not necessarily all day long, nor at the expense of other responsibilities. It’s like regularly reviewing the manual of a complex piece of equipment to ensure it’s used correctly.
Yes. This is my understanding as well. I think the Torah scholars in Europe’s past several centuries were both equally religious as well as knowledgeable in a physical trade/work. As well, i just read recently about an ancient (2000-years ago) sage who advocated the same concept/life style (actually in Israel!).
I was thinking about your performance at the speech of Rav Neugorschall.
In any case, just like you say that Rav Taragin doesn’t represent everyone in the Dati Leumi community neither do you but your posts project the illusion that most of the dati leumi community agrees with your position.
You will be surprised. Many dati leumi people are more determined that haredi citizens recieve priviledges in proportion to their lack of participation in our national defense and economy.
Those who act in general society as "NPC"s should understand that the rest of that society will see them that way too.
That is a strawman. No one from RZ circles (including RNS) is saying that Chareidim are not dedicated to learning Torah. They are saying that students 18-22 should also be serving in the army for a couple years like Hesder guys --- who also learn Torah well.
Are there any highly respected dati leumi rabbanim you know of who support this blog's type of mission of highlighting and exacerbating the divide between chareidim and dati leumi in order to achieve these goals?
Yes, they subscribe to this blog. Not sure they want their names revealed, though. (And there's also rabbanim who are loosely in the charedi world who subscribe to, and appreciate, this blog.)
There are additional Torah situations where war in Israel is documented, such as where Moshe Rabeinu holds up his hands to heaven in order to bring blessings on the army which is fighting at the time. When his hands tire, and he rests them down, the Israelites lose . So Joshuah and (is it Calev?) help hold them up with the result that the army of Israel wins.
That doesn't negate the significance of there being an army, and of what they are doing. It doesn't say that they put down their weapons and picked up their Gemaras.
Rabbi Slifkin, you make some good points, but you also make quite a few mistakes which nullify your main message.
First of all, what is your main message? You pull quite the hook and sinker here. First you prove from pesukim that Shaul and Yonasan trained for battle. Then you extrapolate from there A. that the view of chareidim of hishtadlus being a smokescreen is incorrect. B. that it was not the zechus of Torah that assisted them in war. Although you start with A, I believe your main message is B. But both of these messages fail. A. fails because the fact that Shaul and Yonosan did hishtadlus does not in any way disprove the chareidi view of hishtadlus. I am mystified that anybody could think that it does. The chareidi view of hishtadlus is that it must be performed. That includes military training. But the real power behind a victory is Hashem, based on the spiritual status of the nation. So the pesukim speak in no way to the chareidi viewpoint. In fac they are entirely irrelevant.
B. fails much harder, because the pesukim are not talking about the merit of Torah. We know about the merit of Torah from many other places.
So your evidence completely fails to support either of your messages.
You also make a mistake when you say the Torah discusses battle, but not yeshivos. This only makes sense if one accepts the תורה שבכתב but not the תורה שבעל פה, which discusses yeshivos in hundreds of places. But surely we are not dealing with Tzedukkim or Karaim here! The Torah discusses yeshivos ad nauseum, and speaks in places about the merit of Torah protecting the Jewish people. See here. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
There is nothing in those pesukim or the Malbim that refutes the chareidi view, any more than any other pasuk about somebody engaging in some form of hishtadlus. It seems that you are thoroughly unaquainted with how chareidim think, and are just repeating stuff you read or heard somewhere. You think that whenever a chareidi opens up a Chumash and reads about Noach building the teivah, or Yitzchak digging a well, they run to the mashgiach asking how this is possible??That’s not what happens at all. The worldview of hishtadlus being a charade is actually built on the tension between pesukim like the one you mentioned, and many other pesukim disdaining hishtadlus, such as לא בגבורת הסוס יחפץ ולא בשוקי האיש ירצה, and many others and many מאמרי חז”ל. The solution is that really it is Hashem who is truly in control, but He demands that we do hishtadlus to accomplish things.
The נפקא מינא is how seriously we take our duties towards Hashem vs. our duties towards hishtadlus. If Hashem is truly in control, then we need to take our learning and davening at least as seriously and probably more seriously than our hishtadlus. If He is ח”ו not and hishtadlus determines everything, first of all, all those many pesukim disdaining hishtadlus make no sense, and second of all, our main focus should be on hishtadlus rather than serving Hashem, ח”ו. That is the נפקא מינה of this viewpoint. There might be other solutions to this tension, like that hishtadlus is the true determinant, but that Hashem swoops in and intervenes at any point, but any such solutions which acknowledge the huge role of Hashem and zechus will not be that far off from the chareidi viewpoint in theory and practice. The bottom line is that chareidim have a philosophy that makes sense of both pesukim describing hishtadlus and pesukim describing the deprecation of hishtadlus, while Rabbi Slifkin has no way to deal with the second, except for an unserious Straussian reading.
And there are no pesukim deprecating hishtadlus - rather, there are pesukim reassuring us that even if the odds are against us, we've (potentially) got God on our side.
Huh? There are many pesukim deprecating hishtadlus. I wasn't joking when I talked about how ignorant you are. You even said achdus comes from the word ach!
I don’t see anything in the pesukim about them praising it's innate value. According to the Malbim the pesukim are not praising the value of hishtadlus at all. Look at the context of the Malbim. He’s not talking about their great mightiness in their lifetime, but at the moment of death. ורצה לומר שלפעמים יפלו גבורים מצד חסרון הלימוד והאומנות של המלחמה וזה לא היה פה. When he says לא היה פה it means the time of their death. It’s a kinnah lamenting the fact that all this hishtadlus, yet they were still killed. What a tragedy. It’s not praising Shaul and Yonasan for sword training. It’s lamenting the great tragedy of even such trained individuals falling in battle. No praise for innate value, nothing about innate value at all.
In fact the Malbim does the opposite in the previous pesukim, he says the reason they fell was because of Shaul’s zechus failed. אחר כי שם נגעל מגן גבורים, ובאר דבריו כי לא כיון במגן זה על מגן ממש המשוח בשמן, רק על מגן מליציי שהוא זכות שאול ובניו שהיה זכותו מגן לעמו וסתר לעדתו וזה שכתוב מגן שאול בלי משוח בשמן, מגן הבלתי משוח בשמן, רצה לומר לא מגן של עור רק מגן של זכות ומעשים טובים נגעל, כי לא הועיל להם זכותו, אין זה כי אם נסתלק השפע מלמעלה:
Then you say “there are no pesukim deprecating hishtadlus”. I did predict that your only response would be an unserious reading. The idea that אלה ברכב ואלה בסוסים ואנחני is just “even if the odds are against us” is a totally unserious reading that does no justice to the pasuk. Look at all the meforshim, that we shouldn’t have bitachon in the hishtadlus of the רכב and סוסים, but in Hashem. The Radak even says we can go to battle on foot against horses and chariots with the שם השם. It’s hard to think of a better term than deprecation of hishtadlus. But your reading is not serious at all.
It's not my way of reading, it's the Malbim's. It's also the style of the Malbim, to take things that sound like simple praise, and tie them into logical flow in the context. He does it all the time. I was thinking that you could have made your point from any of the meforshim *except* the Malbim, because they all read it kepshuto, it's a praise for the bravery of Shaul and Yonasan. But that doesn't show "innate" value to hishtadlus, but the value of mesiras nefesh and bravery.
However, Ithink even if somebody read it like you, that the pasuk is praising Shaul and Yonason for becoming well trained, it still wouldn't show anything about "innate" value. If hishtadlus is an important mitzvah, like chareidim would agree, one can receive accolades for doing that mitzvah whether it is "innately" valuable or not. The reason why that praise would be mentioned here, rather than Shaul's other good deeds, would be because of the context, or perhaps that's the mitzvah that Shaul excelled in most.
@Mr. Rosenberg "It amazes me that people still believe that the reason Charedim don't join the IDF is because they think Torah protects. It's just an excuse, and some people actually believe it.
The real reason is that charedim believe that there is a very real risk that their children will become non-charedim by joining the IDF. They will never, ever allow that to happen."
"I believe that the only way charedim will ever join an army is if the army is a 100% charedi environment, just like their charedi yeshivos. Today's IDF cannot provide that environment."
I partially agree with you and partially disagree with you. I do agree that the most effective way to get the Charedim to join the army is to make the army a 100% Charedi environment. However, I don't think that's possible.
But there is another way... to explain the position (and yes, over and over again) why it's against the Torah to let others die for you. Why it's against Torah values to let people sacrifice so much while you sit on the side, especially when your participation can reduce the individual burdens of our soldiers.
And to your point that the "Torah protects" argument isn't really believed by the Charedim only emphasizes the point... it seems like they're embarrassed by the real reason. "We are willing to let others die for us because we don't want our kids to be affected by the war or the army- either physically or spiritually". They recognize the inherent selfishness of such a claim, so for PR purposes (or even to make them feel better about it), they publicize that their intentions are for the betterment of the army. But like you said, we all know that's not true.
Even if many Charedim will not think twice about making the sacrifice it takes to defend Klal Yisroel on the battlefield, some of the more open minded ones may indeed be receptive to the problematic nature of their hashkafa. How they wouldn't want other people treating them that way. How the Torah does emphasize the importance of army service in the face of our enemies. How the Torah does recognize the spiritual challenges of the army and war (Eishes Yefas Toar) and still requires us to go to battle against the enemy despite those risks.
Will R' Slifkin convince the vast majority of Charedim and their Gedolei Torah to change their view? Very unlikely. But maybe that's not his goal. Maybe it's to reach out to those individual Charedim who are starting to become aware of the problematic nature of that hashkafa, and to show them that there is another way.
"But there is another way... to explain the position (and yes, over and over again) why it's against the Torah to let others die for you. Why it's against Torah values to let people sacrifice so much while you sit on the side, especially when your participation can reduce the individual burdens of our soldiers."
They have been trying to do that for the past 70 years. How effective has it been? Here's the reason why: Chareidim laugh when chilonim or other ignoramuses who are close to being chiloni, like Mr. Slifkin, presume to lecture them on the Torah's position. How seriously do you take it when Christians tell you the Torah's real position is to accept Jesus? Just so that you understand, Mr. Slifkin and his friends do a MUCH worse job than the Christians do. That's why it's not effective.
R' Slifkin is far from an ignoramus, and I think you know that. You may disagree with him, which is fine... machlokes is a big part of our Mesorah. But I suspect the reason that you compare him to a Chiloni or a Christian is because you recognize that there is much substance to his arguments. Discrediting the messenger allows you to avoid contending with his points.
2. He is definitely a heretic in many different ways. Chiloni is too nice of a term for him.
3. I suspect the reason he is obsessed with chareidim is because he knows they are right in their interpretation of Judaism, but he doesn't believe in Judaism in the first place and is trying to discredit them. See his series "Why Judaism", where he says the reason to keep the mitzvos is because of the psychological benefits of ritual and family. A joke.
So until the Charedi reform of a couple of centuries ago happened, for almost 3000 years Jews didn't interpret Judaism the right way. Interesting the Jewish people needed a big deal of east European acculturation to understand Torah.
Don't be stupid. There was no chareidi reform of a couple of centuries ago. Chareidim didn't even exist a couple of centuries ago. Chareidim nowadays are just adapting to the times just like Jews always had. Nothing to do with east European. You don't need to be east European or Chareidi to interpret Judaism properly. Chareidi is not the only way to go, but Slifkin and his fellow chilonim are a dead end.
Accusing someone publicly of being a heretic is extremely dangerous. You should tread carefully, especially this time of year. Shanah tova and a gmar chasimah tova.
You know he wrote numerous scholarly books/sefarim analyzing Tanach/Gemara/Rishonim, etc. What have you or other regular chareidim done? Or just because anyone who wears a white shirt is automatically a talmud chacham?
Can you explain? Do you really think most of Slifkin's works reflect scholarship? It's hard to see how an intelligent person can think that, but I guess somebody who is ignorant enough of Torah can be fooled.
The chareidi leadership can only stay in power if their followers remain chareidi. So they need to do everything in their power to ensure this. Anything that can cause a chareidi person to become non chareidi needs to be prohibited. IE: secular education, internet, army service
The Chofetz Chaim wrote a sefer for Jewish soldiers in Czarist Russia called Machane Yisrael. Trust me, conditions for Jewish soldiers was far, far worse than in the IDF. Maybe just hand it out and send them to the front?
As we all know, the Chofetz Chaim was a great advocate for enlisting in the Russian army. He did it himself, and encouraged the students of Radin to do so.
>>From a religious perspective, there is also a Divine plan and the potential for special Divine assistance, which in turn depends on the merit of the nation.<<
It won't get you anywhere. The Dati Leumi also believe in Torah Shebbal Peh. Any resolution must be found within the halachik system of Rabbinic Judaism. The historical question of how judaism looked during bayit rishon is quite irrelevant.
Not necessarily. Being that it's the first time in 2000 years that we have a state and army of our own, it would be wise to look at the periods of Jewish history when they had the same for precedents to guide our own actions.
I know. I'm pro draft. The point the other side is making is that it's going to decrease halachik observance. I was just responding to Simon that how Tanach is different than Torah Shebbal Peh is not relevant to the topic at hand.
It absolutely will not "decrease halachic observance" if done right. That is totally false and an insult to the thousands of frum Hesder guys, besides for the fact that you are literally engaging in pikuach nefesh every second of being in tzahal.
Your blog is like a virtual iron dome. The chareidi daas torah rockets are shot towards the community and your posts launch into action and save everyone lol
But it may depend on if H”S hears the Tefillah. Perhaps H”S listens to those who “walk in His ways” (the Harrison?) before H”S pays attention to those who think they do not have to do Mitzvot rather strictly.
Can I mention a verse in The Torah where Moshe Rabeinu’s hands are held toward heaven supported by Joshuah and another because while they are held upward, the Israelites continue to win their war, however before he had the support of the two holding his hands up, when his hands became tired and he did not hold them up, the Israelites began to lose the battle. It reminds me of another suggestion by someone who lived centuries later and said that men everywhere should lift up their hands in prayer.
So the take-away appears to be that prayer to G-D helps from the spiritual side of life what is not seen, but helps the physical world which is engaged in the battle.
You should listen to this podcast with Rav Moshe Taragin https://overcast.fm/+AAede9LlYps. He is a long time Ram in the hesder yeshiva in Gush Etzion and is a proud religious Zionist. And yet, he doesn’t feel the need to bash Haredim, express hate for them etc. In fact he says that he respects them and that they are doing something that his community (the dati leumi community) isn’t by focusing exclusively on Torah. He has a much healthier perspective on Haredim than what is expressed here.
We are not accusing them.of being irrational, we are accusing them of being immoral.
It's not rational to believe that keeping your children from a basic general education and making army service tabu will "protect" them from the temptations of the secular world. There is no ghetto deep enough to isolate anyone any longer.
Also, the characterl damage to young men by not serving in the IDF while their people and even their own families are literally being slaughtered, is immense. Such "boys" (that's what they are called) never become men. Even after marriage, they become spiritual, moral, and physical eunuchs who never develop traditional masculine virtues, despite the technical ability to produce fertile offspring. All their testosterone is wasted in violent political deminstrations, vandalism, aggression against women, and now, trolling online.
I don't recall talking about education. I was referring to army service.
The fact is that charedim in Israel continue to live in a very sheltered ghetto whether we like it or not. And they will continue to bring up their children that way. They will never allow their children to join the IDF (in its current makeup) because they don't want them to leave the ghetto.
Theoretically, as haredim have told us for years, they can do whatever they want as long as it's not illegal. But many of those of us who have been paying extra for their free ride will no longer agree to do so.
I haven't heard that one yet. Why is it immoral to shelter your children from any outside influence, especially if you believe that the influence is sexual in nature and therefore is included in yahareg v'al yaavor?
I'm not saying they're right for thinking that joining the IDF is included in yahareg v'al yaavor, but if they believe that it is, why is it immoral?
Maybe stupid, foolish, ignorant, wrong, silly, etc. But immoral?
Letting other people risk death for you while you yourself are not risking death is immoral.
Why? What if you're 95 years old and can't serve? What if you're disabled and can't serve? What if you have brain cancer and can't serve? What if you're the Ramatkal and don't serve on the front lines? What if you're a Supreme Court justice and don't serve? Are you immoral for not putting yourself in harm's way and instead asking others to defend you?
Charedim believe they have a disability - the need for their children to remain religious at all costs. They simply are not able to join the IDF - its not an option for them to allow their children to become irreligious.
Why does that make someone immoral?
Good point. Should have been "Letting other people risk death for you, while you yourself are capable of risking death similarly but aren't doing so, is immoral". Also, establishing or justifying a society that expects other people to risk death for it, while refusing to allow those of its members, who can risk death similarly, also risk death, is immoral. And believing you have a disability doesn't mean you really have a disability. Just like the Nazi belief that the Jews were an existential danger to the human race didn't make the Jews an existential danger to the human race.
This has been explained over and over again. The problem is when an entire community refuses to serve. My 95 year old mother does not serve, but her grandchildren do.
What about if you don't have Israeli nationality, like R. Slifkin?
Because it isn't immoral. True, you cannot take a chareidi today and stick him in the army. But if the charedi 'leadership' really wanted to behave morally, they would start now to change the system, so that in 20 years chareidim could have roles in the army compatible with their lifestyle, taking pressure of other parts of the army. But chraredi leadership is not interested in changing the system - and that is immoral.
Chareidim worldwide have no problem in interacting with non-Jews, irreligious women when it comes to business. All over the world. Nobody is worried about immorality in that case Money is money after all.
Can beliefs be immoral? Agree or not but the claim that the blog host is making is that putting your children's spirituality over the safety of the nation is selfish and that the moral option is always to fight off our enemies and protect the lives of our wives, children, and fellow citizens.
"Agree or not but the claim that the blog host is making is that putting your children's spirituality over the safety of the nation is selfish and that the moral option is always to fight off our enemies and protect the lives of our wives, children, and fellow citizens."
I do not believe the blog host is making that claim, since it goes against basic Jewish tenets. Yahareg v'al yaavor is a very real part of Judaism, and the blog host would never say what you claim he said.
He seems to have said it multiple times. Maybe it's between that and a combination of the fact that it's hard to imaging a yeshiva bachur will actually sleep around in the army because it's not allowed acc to army rules and the claims are highly exaggerated. The אביזרים דעריות claims realistically are more "ענייני קדושה" such as shmirat eiynayim etc which the blog host would surely claim are negligible and not worth the "moral stain" of not sharing the burden. (RDNS, please correct me if I'm wrong).
Why is it immoral to shelter your children from any outside influence, especially if you believe that the influence is sexual in nature and therefore is included in yahareg v'al yaavor? -- again, this makes no sense at all.
And cowardice, don’t forget cowardice…the REAL reason they don’t serve….
David Ilan, I disagree that that is the real reason.
I have a hunch David is on to something, though. IDF training and service is really tough and scary mentally, physically. One can understand the hesitancy to do it that lurks subconsciously under the surface of these other claims.
And you know that how? Are you god who knows what’s in a persons heart? Are you a Navi getting this information from god?
Mark Rosenberg, I have decided that you are in the category of trolls. You post the same video link over and over and over again, you keep saying the same thing over and over and over again even after people refute what you say. Goodbye.
It was never refuted. But you post the same refuted idiocy thousands of times for decades.
Rabbi, just curious what he said that was refuted?
That the fact that we don't expect 90 year olds to serve means that there's nothing immoral about charedim not serving.
Is English your first language?
If he would be able to refute it, he wouldn't need to ban him. ਸਮਝਦੇ ਹੋ?
A blog host can't be a troll.
"haredim will gain control of the IDF and turn it into a 100% charedi environment, and then the charedim will join in droves."
That won't work because charedim in Israel refuse the secular education that is needed to make a modern military function.
Lol. They'll do it anyway. Since when has that stopped them? In 50 years they will be the majority in the State and will control the entire government.
Despite the growth in the haredi population, representation of haredi parties in the Knesset remains stable. Not even haredim trust haredi parties to run things.
Interesting. According to most fear mongers, charedim will be the majority in Israel very soon and collapse the economy. I'm sure when that happens, they will figure out how to turn the IDF into a charedi organization.
Doesn't the doctrine of דעת תורה imply that they know now?
They don't want to. Charedim would prefer not to even be ministers.
Your math is wrong. Your metrics are wrong.
You have corrected noted that political power lags behinds population changes because of non-voting children, but you haven't completed the picture.
The question is whether increases in the Charedi voting population has resulted in the (near) equivalent in Knesset representation.
You claim an increase from 5 to 7 seats. What is the increase of the voting population?
Wow, imagine if you did something productive with your time.
I didn't care about the content of his message, but referring to me as Hitler crossed a line.
The idea of "focusing exclusively on Torah study" is not a requirement of the Torah itself. Haredi Judaism, in its current form, is a relatively recent development and stands in contrast to the Jewish biblical tradition, where everyone was obligated to work, fight, and study Torah—not mysticism or endless Talmudic debate—in order to fulfill the commandments. Nothing more, nothing less. This exclusive focus on Torah study is unnecessary and could be likened to a sect that chooses to concentrate solely on separating challah or reciting 100 blessings throughout the day.
Sorry no. See for example the Gemara in מנחות צ״ט: which says
שָׁאַל בֶּן דָּמָה בֶּן אֲחוֹתוֹ שֶׁל רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל אֶת רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל כְּגוֹן אֲנִי שֶׁלָּמַדְתִּי כׇּל הַתּוֹרָה כּוּלָּהּ מַהוּ לִלְמוֹד חׇכְמַת יְוָנִית קָרָא עָלָיו הַמִּקְרָא הַזֶּה לֹא יָמוּשׁ סֵפֶר הַתּוֹרָה הַזֶּה מִפִּיךָ וְהָגִיתָ בּוֹ יוֹמָם וָלַיְלָה צֵא וּבְדוֹק שָׁעָה שֶׁאֵינָהּ לֹא מִן הַיּוֹם וְלֹא מִן הַלַּיְלָה וּלְמוֹד בָּהּ חׇכְמַת יְוָנִית.
I'm glad you seem to know what chochmas yevonis is, nobody else does.
Talk about charedi cherry picking sources - How do you think the tanoi'im picked up their parnossoh skills - how to be a shoemaker doesn't just fall into your head....
The point was not חכמת יונית. What חכמת יונית is is completely irrelevant to the point. The point was that the חיוב to learn Torah is ever present. There is no time to waste. Learning a trade is not wasting time and therefore permitted. But see the Rambam I quoted, working person should work 3 hours a day and learn Torah 9 hours a day.
Read the gemoroh carefully without chareid kvetching. Words mean things. We know from other places in Shas that Chazal had a particular hatred of chochmas yevonis. You have no way of knowing what Rabbi Yishmoel would have answered had the question been "Can I go on a course and learn all that goyshe apikorsihe medical science stuff for a week so I can join hatzolo and save lives?"
Anyway, you clearly don't hold that gemoroh halochoh l'maseh because you are blogging away. And it's not codified anywhere as halocho l'maseh.
And you haven't dealt with the cherry picking of sources. Like all of torah, full of contradictions, and I can find plenty of contradictory souces should I be bothered and have a few hours to spare.
"צֵא וּבְדוֹק שָׁעָה שֶׁאֵינָהּ לֹא מִן הַיּוֹם וְלֹא מִן הַלַּיְלָה וּלְמוֹד בָּהּ חׇכְמַת יְוָנִית"
Then again, in order to find that astronomical moment of twilight zone between day and night, you'd need a lot of secular study. It means that the obligation to avoid secular study entirely only kicks in when one has already mastered secular wisdom. The fulfillment of צֵא וּבְדוֹק requires graduate level education.
And that's my kvetch for today.
What did the people who wrote the Gemara do all day?
They learned Torah most of the time and worked a little. The Rambam writes:
“גדולי חכמי ישראל היה מהם חוטבי עצים, ומהם שואבי מים, ומהם סומין, ואף על פי כן היו עוסקין בתורה ביום ובלילה,”
Even though they worked they learned Torah day and night.
And did that affect how they viewed the world?
Yes, the Talmudic sages can be seen as the spiritual predecessors of the Haredim. However, their prohibitions against studying foreign languages or sciences were not rooted in the Torah but stemmed from their own subjective ideology. Similarly, modern Haredi rabbis forbid a wide range of things, such as using the internet, women obtaining driving licenses, wearing wigs, and reading books by Rabbi Slifkin. No, these prohibitions were not given to Moshe on Mount Sinai.
Look at the Rambam in the first chapter of hilchos Talmud Torah.
כל איש מישראל חייב בתלמוד תורה, בין עני בין עשיר, בין שלם בגופו בין בעל ייסורין, בין בחור בין שהיה זקן גדול שתשש כוחו. אפילו עני המחזרא על הפתחים, ואפילו בעל אשה ובנים, חייב לקבוע לו זמן לתלמוד תורה ביום ובלילה, שנאמר ״והגית בו יומם ולילה״
And then the Rambam describes how much working person should learn.
כיצד, היה בעל אומנות, והיה עוסק במלאכה שלש שעות ביום ובתורה תשע
The Rambam says a person who works should work 3 hours a day and learn Torah 9 hours a day.
Yes, that's the Rambam's ideal. That is very far from saying that aperson is obligated to learn every moment unless he has some other obligation.
Do you know how much the Rambam learned? By his own account, a few hours a week on Shabbat afternoon.
And yet the Rambam himself writes
כיצד, היה בעל אומנות, והיה עוסק במלאכה שלש שעות ביום ובתורה תשע,
A person should learn 9 hours a day and work 3
That was later in life due to his circumstances. Earlier in life he learned day and night.
Name one employer (or independent businessman) who paskens like the Rambam.
Name one Charedi leader who paskens that one should work 3 hours a day.
You completely missed the point. The point is that we see that learning Torah as much as you can is what hashem wants from a person. The details change based on the Times but the principle doesn’t. תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם.
The Talmudic sages as you call them are the basis of Judaism. They are the Baalei Mesora. To say they made things up is quite a statement.
We are not Karites. We don’t live based on what is written in tanach. We live based on the Torah Shebaal peh which is expressed in the Gemara. Rav Soloveitchik, the spiritual patron of modern orthodoxy would have considered your statement to be apikorsus.
"They are the Baalei Mesora"
https://jewishbelief.com/can-the-rabbis-make-errors/
"would have considered your statement to be apikorsus"
https://jewishbelief.com/its-kefirah-an-orthodox-response-to-legitimate-issues/
That link is completely irrelevant
I think Torah study is a requirement of The Torah: specifically, The Shemah says: They ( The Mitzvot) shall be “to fill in” TOS-Afos (an ancient word which connotes totes) between your eyes ( your brain which has four sections). So the idea is the Mitzvot are to be thought about all the time and discussed wherever you go.
In the Book of Joshua, God commands him: "Let not this Book of the Teaching cease from your lips, but recite it day and night, so that you may observe faithfully all that is written in it." However, throughout the book, Joshua is portrayed not as a yeshiva student, but as a busy warrior and commander. This suggests a practical interpretation: we are required to study the Torah every day, but not necessarily all day long, nor at the expense of other responsibilities. It’s like regularly reviewing the manual of a complex piece of equipment to ensure it’s used correctly.
Yes. This is my understanding as well. I think the Torah scholars in Europe’s past several centuries were both equally religious as well as knowledgeable in a physical trade/work. As well, i just read recently about an ancient (2000-years ago) sage who advocated the same concept/life style (actually in Israel!).
Imagine this, he can do a podcast with a charedi guy from Lakewood without yelling at him, berating him or insulting him.
There's no yelling or insults in my posts, just criticism. And not everybody in the dati-leumi world feels the same way as Rav Taragin.
I was thinking about your performance at the speech of Rav Neugorschall.
In any case, just like you say that Rav Taragin doesn’t represent everyone in the Dati Leumi community neither do you but your posts project the illusion that most of the dati leumi community agrees with your position.
You will be surprised. Many dati leumi people are more determined that haredi citizens recieve priviledges in proportion to their lack of participation in our national defense and economy.
Those who act in general society as "NPC"s should understand that the rest of that society will see them that way too.
And many respect the haredi community and their devotion to Torah. Listen to what Rav Taragin said about the charedim.
That is a strawman. No one from RZ circles (including RNS) is saying that Chareidim are not dedicated to learning Torah. They are saying that students 18-22 should also be serving in the army for a couple years like Hesder guys --- who also learn Torah well.
"And many respect the haredi community and their devotion to Torah."
But we're talking about their lack of devotion to Torah.
Are there any highly respected dati leumi rabbanim you know of who support this blog's type of mission of highlighting and exacerbating the divide between chareidim and dati leumi in order to achieve these goals?
Yes, they subscribe to this blog. Not sure they want their names revealed, though. (And there's also rabbanim who are loosely in the charedi world who subscribe to, and appreciate, this blog.)
But the Malbim...
Remind me what R' Taragin does all day?
He learns and teaches Torah
And does this affect his way of thinking?
There are additional Torah situations where war in Israel is documented, such as where Moshe Rabeinu holds up his hands to heaven in order to bring blessings on the army which is fighting at the time. When his hands tire, and he rests them down, the Israelites lose . So Joshuah and (is it Calev?) help hold them up with the result that the army of Israel wins.
That doesn't negate the significance of there being an army, and of what they are doing. It doesn't say that they put down their weapons and picked up their Gemaras.
No it does not negate necessity of defense but it shows an additional necessity for strong prayer leadership.
Rabbi Slifkin, you make some good points, but you also make quite a few mistakes which nullify your main message.
First of all, what is your main message? You pull quite the hook and sinker here. First you prove from pesukim that Shaul and Yonasan trained for battle. Then you extrapolate from there A. that the view of chareidim of hishtadlus being a smokescreen is incorrect. B. that it was not the zechus of Torah that assisted them in war. Although you start with A, I believe your main message is B. But both of these messages fail. A. fails because the fact that Shaul and Yonosan did hishtadlus does not in any way disprove the chareidi view of hishtadlus. I am mystified that anybody could think that it does. The chareidi view of hishtadlus is that it must be performed. That includes military training. But the real power behind a victory is Hashem, based on the spiritual status of the nation. So the pesukim speak in no way to the chareidi viewpoint. In fac they are entirely irrelevant.
B. fails much harder, because the pesukim are not talking about the merit of Torah. We know about the merit of Torah from many other places.
So your evidence completely fails to support either of your messages.
You also make a mistake when you say the Torah discusses battle, but not yeshivos. This only makes sense if one accepts the תורה שבכתב but not the תורה שבעל פה, which discusses yeshivos in hundreds of places. But surely we are not dealing with Tzedukkim or Karaim here! The Torah discusses yeshivos ad nauseum, and speaks in places about the merit of Torah protecting the Jewish people. See here. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
Look at the pesukim and Malbim again. If hishtadlus is just a charade, and the real power is in mitzvot, those texts make no sense.
There is nothing in those pesukim or the Malbim that refutes the chareidi view, any more than any other pasuk about somebody engaging in some form of hishtadlus. It seems that you are thoroughly unaquainted with how chareidim think, and are just repeating stuff you read or heard somewhere. You think that whenever a chareidi opens up a Chumash and reads about Noach building the teivah, or Yitzchak digging a well, they run to the mashgiach asking how this is possible??That’s not what happens at all. The worldview of hishtadlus being a charade is actually built on the tension between pesukim like the one you mentioned, and many other pesukim disdaining hishtadlus, such as לא בגבורת הסוס יחפץ ולא בשוקי האיש ירצה, and many others and many מאמרי חז”ל. The solution is that really it is Hashem who is truly in control, but He demands that we do hishtadlus to accomplish things.
The נפקא מינא is how seriously we take our duties towards Hashem vs. our duties towards hishtadlus. If Hashem is truly in control, then we need to take our learning and davening at least as seriously and probably more seriously than our hishtadlus. If He is ח”ו not and hishtadlus determines everything, first of all, all those many pesukim disdaining hishtadlus make no sense, and second of all, our main focus should be on hishtadlus rather than serving Hashem, ח”ו. That is the נפקא מינה of this viewpoint. There might be other solutions to this tension, like that hishtadlus is the true determinant, but that Hashem swoops in and intervenes at any point, but any such solutions which acknowledge the huge role of Hashem and zechus will not be that far off from the chareidi viewpoint in theory and practice. The bottom line is that chareidim have a philosophy that makes sense of both pesukim describing hishtadlus and pesukim describing the deprecation of hishtadlus, while Rabbi Slifkin has no way to deal with the second, except for an unserious Straussian reading.
The pesukim are not merely describing hishtadlus. They are praising its innate value.
And there are no pesukim deprecating hishtadlus - rather, there are pesukim reassuring us that even if the odds are against us, we've (potentially) got God on our side.
Huh? There are many pesukim deprecating hishtadlus. I wasn't joking when I talked about how ignorant you are. You even said achdus comes from the word ach!
I don’t see anything in the pesukim about them praising it's innate value. According to the Malbim the pesukim are not praising the value of hishtadlus at all. Look at the context of the Malbim. He’s not talking about their great mightiness in their lifetime, but at the moment of death. ורצה לומר שלפעמים יפלו גבורים מצד חסרון הלימוד והאומנות של המלחמה וזה לא היה פה. When he says לא היה פה it means the time of their death. It’s a kinnah lamenting the fact that all this hishtadlus, yet they were still killed. What a tragedy. It’s not praising Shaul and Yonasan for sword training. It’s lamenting the great tragedy of even such trained individuals falling in battle. No praise for innate value, nothing about innate value at all.
In fact the Malbim does the opposite in the previous pesukim, he says the reason they fell was because of Shaul’s zechus failed. אחר כי שם נגעל מגן גבורים, ובאר דבריו כי לא כיון במגן זה על מגן ממש המשוח בשמן, רק על מגן מליציי שהוא זכות שאול ובניו שהיה זכותו מגן לעמו וסתר לעדתו וזה שכתוב מגן שאול בלי משוח בשמן, מגן הבלתי משוח בשמן, רצה לומר לא מגן של עור רק מגן של זכות ומעשים טובים נגעל, כי לא הועיל להם זכותו, אין זה כי אם נסתלק השפע מלמעלה:
Then you say “there are no pesukim deprecating hishtadlus”. I did predict that your only response would be an unserious reading. The idea that אלה ברכב ואלה בסוסים ואנחני is just “even if the odds are against us” is a totally unserious reading that does no justice to the pasuk. Look at all the meforshim, that we shouldn’t have bitachon in the hishtadlus of the רכב and סוסים, but in Hashem. The Radak even says we can go to battle on foot against horses and chariots with the שם השם. It’s hard to think of a better term than deprecation of hishtadlus. But your reading is not serious at all.
Wow. Your way of reading this is astonishing. I will leave it to everyone to read the pesukim and draw their own conclusions.
It's not my way of reading, it's the Malbim's. It's also the style of the Malbim, to take things that sound like simple praise, and tie them into logical flow in the context. He does it all the time. I was thinking that you could have made your point from any of the meforshim *except* the Malbim, because they all read it kepshuto, it's a praise for the bravery of Shaul and Yonasan. But that doesn't show "innate" value to hishtadlus, but the value of mesiras nefesh and bravery.
However, Ithink even if somebody read it like you, that the pasuk is praising Shaul and Yonason for becoming well trained, it still wouldn't show anything about "innate" value. If hishtadlus is an important mitzvah, like chareidim would agree, one can receive accolades for doing that mitzvah whether it is "innately" valuable or not. The reason why that praise would be mentioned here, rather than Shaul's other good deeds, would be because of the context, or perhaps that's the mitzvah that Shaul excelled in most.
The test is, do Chareidim give credit to physical actions that they approve of? Unequivocally, yes.
@Mr. Rosenberg "It amazes me that people still believe that the reason Charedim don't join the IDF is because they think Torah protects. It's just an excuse, and some people actually believe it.
The real reason is that charedim believe that there is a very real risk that their children will become non-charedim by joining the IDF. They will never, ever allow that to happen."
"I believe that the only way charedim will ever join an army is if the army is a 100% charedi environment, just like their charedi yeshivos. Today's IDF cannot provide that environment."
I partially agree with you and partially disagree with you. I do agree that the most effective way to get the Charedim to join the army is to make the army a 100% Charedi environment. However, I don't think that's possible.
But there is another way... to explain the position (and yes, over and over again) why it's against the Torah to let others die for you. Why it's against Torah values to let people sacrifice so much while you sit on the side, especially when your participation can reduce the individual burdens of our soldiers.
And to your point that the "Torah protects" argument isn't really believed by the Charedim only emphasizes the point... it seems like they're embarrassed by the real reason. "We are willing to let others die for us because we don't want our kids to be affected by the war or the army- either physically or spiritually". They recognize the inherent selfishness of such a claim, so for PR purposes (or even to make them feel better about it), they publicize that their intentions are for the betterment of the army. But like you said, we all know that's not true.
Even if many Charedim will not think twice about making the sacrifice it takes to defend Klal Yisroel on the battlefield, some of the more open minded ones may indeed be receptive to the problematic nature of their hashkafa. How they wouldn't want other people treating them that way. How the Torah does emphasize the importance of army service in the face of our enemies. How the Torah does recognize the spiritual challenges of the army and war (Eishes Yefas Toar) and still requires us to go to battle against the enemy despite those risks.
Will R' Slifkin convince the vast majority of Charedim and their Gedolei Torah to change their view? Very unlikely. But maybe that's not his goal. Maybe it's to reach out to those individual Charedim who are starting to become aware of the problematic nature of that hashkafa, and to show them that there is another way.
"But there is another way... to explain the position (and yes, over and over again) why it's against the Torah to let others die for you. Why it's against Torah values to let people sacrifice so much while you sit on the side, especially when your participation can reduce the individual burdens of our soldiers."
They have been trying to do that for the past 70 years. How effective has it been? Here's the reason why: Chareidim laugh when chilonim or other ignoramuses who are close to being chiloni, like Mr. Slifkin, presume to lecture them on the Torah's position. How seriously do you take it when Christians tell you the Torah's real position is to accept Jesus? Just so that you understand, Mr. Slifkin and his friends do a MUCH worse job than the Christians do. That's why it's not effective.
R' Slifkin is far from an ignoramus, and I think you know that. You may disagree with him, which is fine... machlokes is a big part of our Mesorah. But I suspect the reason that you compare him to a Chiloni or a Christian is because you recognize that there is much substance to his arguments. Discrediting the messenger allows you to avoid contending with his points.
1. He is definitely an ignoramus.
2. He is definitely a heretic in many different ways. Chiloni is too nice of a term for him.
3. I suspect the reason he is obsessed with chareidim is because he knows they are right in their interpretation of Judaism, but he doesn't believe in Judaism in the first place and is trying to discredit them. See his series "Why Judaism", where he says the reason to keep the mitzvos is because of the psychological benefits of ritual and family. A joke.
So until the Charedi reform of a couple of centuries ago happened, for almost 3000 years Jews didn't interpret Judaism the right way. Interesting the Jewish people needed a big deal of east European acculturation to understand Torah.
Don't be stupid. There was no chareidi reform of a couple of centuries ago. Chareidim didn't even exist a couple of centuries ago. Chareidim nowadays are just adapting to the times just like Jews always had. Nothing to do with east European. You don't need to be east European or Chareidi to interpret Judaism properly. Chareidi is not the only way to go, but Slifkin and his fellow chilonim are a dead end.
"Chareidim didn't even exist a couple of centuries ago. " Trying getting that printed in a charedi newspaper.
Chareidim are 'adapting to the times'! You having a laugh or something? Some can't fill out a form in the US without the help of their wives!
Accusing someone publicly of being a heretic is extremely dangerous. You should tread carefully, especially this time of year. Shanah tova and a gmar chasimah tova.
Huh? It's already well established that he's a heretic. I don't think anybody who knows the facts disputes it.
Just wondering, if it's indeed true that everyone knows me to be a heretic and ignoramus, why do you spend time here?
You know he wrote numerous scholarly books/sefarim analyzing Tanach/Gemara/Rishonim, etc. What have you or other regular chareidim done? Or just because anyone who wears a white shirt is automatically a talmud chacham?
YL, you have to realize that for people like Azmaaveth, anyone who challenges the charedi position is ipso facto someone whose opinion doesn't count.
His works are mostly idiocy. Did you ever read "Was Rashi a corporealist?". Read it and see how stupid and ignorant he is.
God, you talk like a ten year old, and an exceptionally rude one at that.
Can you explain? Do you really think most of Slifkin's works reflect scholarship? It's hard to see how an intelligent person can think that, but I guess somebody who is ignorant enough of Torah can be fooled.
Don't be silly, Rashi says it is referring to מנשרים קלו – לעשות רצון בוראם 🙂. Otoh, Rambam writes: משנה תורה מלכים ומלחמות ז':ט"ו
וְלֹא עוֹד אֶלָּא שֶׁכׇּל דְּמֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל תְּלוּיִין בְּצַוָּארוֹ. וְאִם לֹא נִצֵּחַ וְלֹא עָשָׂה מִלְחָמָה בְּכׇל לִבּוֹ וּבְכׇל נַפְשׁוֹ. הֲרֵי זֶה כְּמִי שֶׁשָּׁפַךְ דְּמֵי הַכֹּל.
The chareidi leadership can only stay in power if their followers remain chareidi. So they need to do everything in their power to ensure this. Anything that can cause a chareidi person to become non chareidi needs to be prohibited. IE: secular education, internet, army service
This is their entire belief system.
They need to keep the masses tightly controlled.
Can you be more specific as to whom you are referring to in your words "chareidi leadership"?
I have been around top rabbanim in the chareidi world, they were not the "stay in power" types.
Yeah, go ask Reb Shaul Alter and his chassidim about that.......
Perhaps the better source, if I may, would be a few pesukim before, 1:18, Dovid says וַיֹּ֕אמֶר לְלַמֵּ֥ד בְּנֵֽי־יְהוּדָ֖ה קָ֑שֶׁת
Rashi says explicitly that b/c the warriors have fallen, Bnai Yehudah must now learn how to use a bow to fight.
The Chofetz Chaim wrote a sefer for Jewish soldiers in Czarist Russia called Machane Yisrael. Trust me, conditions for Jewish soldiers was far, far worse than in the IDF. Maybe just hand it out and send them to the front?
As we all know, the Chofetz Chaim was a great advocate for enlisting in the Russian army. He did it himself, and encouraged the students of Radin to do so.
And how many stayed religious (of those that survived)? In real life, not the sweet stories.
Good point. Let's see how that will get deflected.
Russia.
Israel.
Happy?
Also, the Talmudic battles were in galut. But this current war is in Israel.
>>From a religious perspective, there is also a Divine plan and the potential for special Divine assistance, which in turn depends on the merit of the nation.<<
ל֣וּ עַ֖מִּי שֹׁמֵ֣עַ לִ֑י יִ֜שְׂרָאֵ֗ל בִּדְרָכַ֥י יְהַלֵּֽכוּ:
כִּמְעַט אֽוֹיְבֵיהֶ֣ם אַכְנִ֑יעַ וְעַל־צָֽ֜רֵיהֶ֗ם אָשִׁ֥יב יָדִֽי
מְשַׂנְאֵ֣י יְ֖הֹוָה יְכַֽחֲשׁוּ־ל֑וֹ וִיהִ֖י עִתָּ֣ם לְעוֹלָֽם
If only My people would hearken to Me, if Israel would go in My ways
In a short time I would subdue their enemies and upon their enemies I would return My hand.
The enemies of the Lord would lie to Him, and their time would be forever
Again?
Yes, they're doing it again. This post was triggered by a prominent person in the charedi community who just voiced this fallacious claim.
"Torah is very different from Daas Torah. No wonder they don’t learn Tanach in yeshivos." This point deserves to be said over and over again.
It won't get you anywhere. The Dati Leumi also believe in Torah Shebbal Peh. Any resolution must be found within the halachik system of Rabbinic Judaism. The historical question of how judaism looked during bayit rishon is quite irrelevant.
Not necessarily. Being that it's the first time in 2000 years that we have a state and army of our own, it would be wise to look at the periods of Jewish history when they had the same for precedents to guide our own actions.
For values, yes. For halacha? Not much. We can't Darshin pesukim without a sanhedrin.
Wait... you mean they didn't wear shtreimels during bayit rishon???
There is no halachic issue with joining the IDF. The conflict is hashkafic, not halachic.
I know. I'm pro draft. The point the other side is making is that it's going to decrease halachik observance. I was just responding to Simon that how Tanach is different than Torah Shebbal Peh is not relevant to the topic at hand.
It absolutely will not "decrease halachic observance" if done right. That is totally false and an insult to the thousands of frum Hesder guys, besides for the fact that you are literally engaging in pikuach nefesh every second of being in tzahal.
I find Tanakh to be much more challenging than Gemara.
How?
Your blog is like a virtual iron dome. The chareidi daas torah rockets are shot towards the community and your posts launch into action and save everyone lol
I probably don't want to know, but who/which statement?
To quote our great president, c'mon man!
You know that's not the real reason the charedim will never, ever join the IDF.
Of course not. It's just an excuse. But it still needs to be countered.
Why don't you spend more time countering the real reason?
These guys need to get drafted and go fight or they won’t have anywhere to pray.
The Muslim most religious animals are generating all the terror and these Jewish draft dodgers need to step up
Sorry the autocorrect misspelled “Hareidi”.
But it may depend on if H”S hears the Tefillah. Perhaps H”S listens to those who “walk in His ways” (the Harrison?) before H”S pays attention to those who think they do not have to do Mitzvot rather strictly.
Can I mention a verse in The Torah where Moshe Rabeinu’s hands are held toward heaven supported by Joshuah and another because while they are held upward, the Israelites continue to win their war, however before he had the support of the two holding his hands up, when his hands became tired and he did not hold them up, the Israelites began to lose the battle. It reminds me of another suggestion by someone who lived centuries later and said that men everywhere should lift up their hands in prayer.
So the take-away appears to be that prayer to G-D helps from the spiritual side of life what is not seen, but helps the physical world which is engaged in the battle.
The primary source according to chareidi ideology is the Talmud.
The Written Law is only to be understood through the lens of the Oral Law.