Reb Natan, I'm curious, after hearing our side from many different commentators, even if you disagree, do you understand where we're coming from at least?
Oh yes. I understand that you are tinokos shenishbu - trapped in a myopic, narcissistic worldview, understandably unwilling to acknowledge that your community is fundamentally failing at sharing the terrible responsibilities placed on the country at this time. Resorting to quoting idealistic aggadata about Torah without any interest in actually figuring out what it means in practical terms as your community grows to 20, 30, 40, 50, 60% of the population of Israel. Totally incapable of understanding how being a large population and proportion of the state means that you have to change your approach.
To put it another way - you have no response to Moshe Rabbeinu's rebuke, so you resort to fantasy and bluster.
are you aware that there are debates going on in the world that Israel is a bunch of Nazis and therefore the massacre, tho not justified, is Israel's fault (for allowing people to have fun near what they perceive as an actual concentration camp called Gaza)? Are you aware that most people in the world are ignorant enough to completely believe that 100%? do you realize that the mainstream media can turn on Israel so darn quickly and turn millions of people to Hamas's side? i hope to God that this all stays relatively tame, but dear God, how easy it is to turn into so many uglier things than anything we're seeing?
you clearly don't understand our side. you call in "idealistic aggadata." you can't get your head wrapped around that we really believe in this stuff as a tenant of basic Judaism, which is sourced heavily in Chazal and the Jews throughout the generations.
here's the deal: if you can't appreciate that there actually is another side with a real, solid world view within authentic Judaism, you're completely tone deaf. just like anyone who is entrapped in an ideology and can't see where the other side is coming from. that is super dangerous. as i said, you may disagree, as i disagree with you. but i strongly understand your side. (not your anger.) i don't think you're narcissistic or a kofer. i do think you missed some stuff in your education. but i wouldn't dare - at this time - make a fight. you're a Jew. I'm a Jew. the chilonim who have that pintele yid are Jews. we have differences, but Hamas couldn't care less, and I hope to God the rest of the world doesn't follow. our job is to stick together despite our differences of opinion.
often when one side can't see the other side, there are labels. all that means is that you actually don't get it at all. in any debate whatsoever, and i mean this really strongly, the labels are only for those who don't get it. now when it comes to a nazi, we don't care to get it; their evil and that's it. but unless it's that level of evil, we'd better come together and stop the name calling and appreciate each other's input whether you agree or not.
you're so into your bein adam l'chavero - dude, it's easy to be politically nice, much harder to be nice to those who are personally different than you when you actually don't see they're side. so you can preach about army duty and stuff, but bein adam l'chavero, klal yisroel coming together as a people is a truckload more important at this moment where things stand, because your preaching is not changing anything, while unity of mind amongst us does, so that God see us as one unit and save us all.
i promise you i'm sitting hear on shpilkes because i know that the chances of the IDF soldiers going in so soon is such a freakin' pachad. there will be civilians, but if they dare hesitate because of that they'll probably die. when its ground to ground combat it's much harder to kill a civilian than it is to shoot a cold distant bomb. ii could hardly sleep last night.
i beg you, please set aside the differences, especially when it's hard because you see our worldview as narcissistic and dangerous. we are not Hamas - let's be together for the sake of whatever ideals we hold of.
No you don't really believe this stuff. You know full well that if all Israel became charedi and avoided army, the country would cease to exist. So you have to address the question of at what point does the charedi community need to change its approach.
i addressed that earlier. if we were all chareidi of course we would have to fight - or leave (the latter being more probable because we aren't quite so zionistic for the most part. we support israel mainly because Jews are living there, אכמ"ל)
Great, so you agree that the charedi lifestyle wouldn't work on a national scale. What about 70%? 50%? 30%? Who in yhe charedi leadership is showing the slightest interest in figuring out when and how they need to change?
my much more relevant point was that now is not the time to discuss this. there are people, our brothers, that are probably going to die tonight and we should be focusing on coming together right now, which is a heck of a lot more important. happy to debate when things calm down. right now we're not changing anything and we need to focus on davening, learning, tzedaka, teshuva and coming together
[edit] your points are important, and i'm not jut happy to discuss; these things *need* to be discussed. real policy issues. just not right now
You just explained very clearly why there is a lot of resentment against the Charedim. You are describing the Charedim as "free riders". You claim that they take advantage of other people risking their lives for their freedom and safety, but if called upon to do this same, that they would simply leave. I don't believe that you are properly characterizing things, but the position you describe is morally indefensible for most people.
I actually don't agree with how you are characterizing things. I believe that the bulk of Charedim would most certainly step to defend the country, but most people remain within the system that they are raised in, so since this is taken care of by others, it is a given that the country is defended and they can go on with their lives. This is why it is the leadership that is the issue. I the leaders said "50% to the army 50% to learning" or whatever, then this could be accomplished. The charedi boys would not say "this is not important, I'll leave". In fact there are plenty that would be quite happy with this, since not everyone is suited to sitting rooted to a seat for 12+ hours per day.
True I just mean if there wasn't enough chiloni or dl army to fight. We don't think there is a final need to be in Israel. If it works out great, if not we'll see... This is quite a long discussion and perhaps not for now....
" since chareidim should be fighting instead of learning, it is מצוה הבא בעבירה, so their Torah is not a zechus."" Correct. That is exactly what I am saying.
"But since you have zero halachic credentials to argue with the chareidi authorities" You might as well say that I have zero Torah credentials to argue with the charedi authorities who claimed that Chazal were infallible in science. To those who care about contemporary charedi authority, that's a definitive argument. To those who care about real Torah arguments, it just exposes the farce of contemporary charedi rabbinic authority.
No, my point is that this has to do with world outlook. And when you have a major bias, it influences it. Charedim believe that science is dangerous, so therefore they say that it's kefirah. Charedim don't want the spiritual harm of the IDF to their community, so therefore they claim that there is no halachic/hashkafic reason to serve. But everyone else recognizes that this is totally bogus. There is no halachic exemption, not in the Torah, not in the Gemara, not in Rambam. And Moshe Rabbeinu's rebuke has no response.
btw i agree to you that there are problems. i don't think many of the people learning should be doing that. only people who are toraso umnaso. i'm not sure what the geder of that it either, but many for sure don't qualify. but would you meet me halfway: do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify? because there are plenty of those as well. that's one thing.
and if you meet me here, things change in the discussion.
for example, what age is the draft? just at the age when bachurim are deciding what kind of life they want to live, right? so is there even a good way to know so clearly at that point? and those who don't go to the army and don't go to work but are not putting in their time to learning and avoda, they are doing the wrong thing. but we should be mechanech them to try to get more talmedei chachamim (real ones) because we have a major shortage of that. so should we really be encouraging 18 year olds to go tho work or the army? you're really asking to redefine the system, which is a complicated discussion, if the system is coming from somewhere (i.e. of Torah is actually chashuv for those that really do it right)
" do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify?"
NO!!!! Why on earth does learning Torah all day, even incredibly intensively, provide a justification for not sharing the burden of fighting for our survival? There is absolutely no halachic basis for that. And it's abundantly clear from none other than Moshe Rabbeinu himself that THE BURDEN OF FIGHTING NEEDS TO BE SHARED.
Natan, do you want to discuss halachic basis? what is the halachic basis that anyone needs to join the army? simply, it comes from the need for the citizens in the city to protect each other (although there is a lot to be said on this topic). you keep bringing from milchemes mitzva and the likes; its far from clear that this applies today. the need for security in a Jewish city is a gemara and most poskim who were pro Israeli army (meaning zionistic, non-chareidi talmidei chachomim) thought this was the proper source
there is a clear, unambiguous Rema, THE pillar of Halacha, who says that Talmidei Chachamim (like Reb Elyashiv, see there) are patur from this sort of duty.
אחי, you may disagree, although you'll have to provide your sources, but i am not a fool for going with the chafetz chaim and so so amny many others who bring sources after sources after sources that learning torah is MORE important that saving klala yisroel. for ex. Mordechai Hatzadik's stature was lowered a notch because he had to be busy with protecting ALL of klal yiroel, almost single handedly, as opposed to his prior occupation of being fully devoted to torah. see Toras Habayis from the Chafetz Chaim at length. the practical application of this is complex but it's harldly as black one white 'foolish' as you think from your gut.
"do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify? because there are plenty of those as well. that's one thing."
No, there are not plenty. Tell me, in a typical yeshivah, what percentage of bochurim are actually known as 'real masmidim', who do that? Very few percentage wise.
Natan Natan Natan. I don't know if I am part of what triggered this post from my previous comments (it's probably narcissistic for me to think that). and you probably have a point when people say hishtadlus doesn't matter. But that isn't the position we take.
(Even your example was a reaction to all of those who pump up hishtadlus too much. I doubt Reb Shalom Cohen really thinks we don't need the army practically. I'm not twisting; his point is that it isn't the army that isn't the one doing it. It is our teshuva (learning is part of that), Tefilah, Tzedaka, it is our closeness with Hashem which is what governs the world. NOT the army. But this isn't to say that we don't need the army. If I'm wrong about reb Shalom Cohen than he's out, he doesn't represent us, and either way we have tremendous הכרת הטוב to the army. but i could hear myself saying such words to bring out a point in proper context. although in his position he should've been more clear, and he's dead wrong for pretending like they don't deserve tremendous tremendous הכרת הטוב.
Here's how we view it. There are two planes of existence. We can call them (A) the real world and (b) Olam Hazeh. we live in olam hazeh and that is our reality. unless we rise way above like the Rambam and Reb Baruch ber and Chizkiyahu hamelch and Reb Shimon Bar Yochai (each of those have specific stories to this affect, not 4 now), we are stuck in this olam hazeh and the rules of olam hazeh govern us. in this world which we live in, hishtadlus is a MUST. without it we die and starve. because we haven't risen above. we need צהל and have only tremendous הכרת הטוב to them for putting their lives on the line; a truly scary prospect. and if not for them it would be us.
but then there is the actual real world, the world of שכר ועונש. in this world we say הכל בשביל ישראל. everything that happens is a message to better ourselves. when there is an עת צרה we daven and do teshuva because that is how things really work.
when it got really hot for אברהם אבינו i'm sure the climate analysts were making cheshbonos why it was so hot. when vinegar went up in price for rav huna (brachos 5b) to sell it at the cost of wine not to lose after doing teshuva for what caused it to turn sour in the first place, i'm sure all the data econ dudes were explaining it all acc. to teva. but we say בשביל ישראל. you know why it was hot? so avraham der tatte shouldn't have guests. you know why the market completely changed and vinegar shot up? the real reason is because of rav huna. you know why efron became the leader? i'm sure there were natural causes and politics and all the pundits were saying how this idiot should reallly not be president an it happened because of the backlash to this ideology or whatever. but the Gemara tells us the real reason why: בשביל ישראל שנקראו ראשית, so avraham should deal with someone chashuv. this is our view of all of history. why hitler came to power, why trump was elected, why oil prces go up, why trgedies happen, why this guy wins a lottery, why the Jews got expelled from [pick your country], why this natural disaster happened, why this natural course of events happened.
the teva is the tool Hashem uses in this world to enact and carry out His will, acc. to שכר ועונש. so when a Yid sees an עת צרה, the spiritual behind the scenes rectifications are the real ones that will save everyone. but like the purim story, there will be a masterful cover up of natural events, like the IDF and IAF and America backing Israel and on and on, which will help us win בעה"ית, but those are the natural fronts. the real deal is our coming closer to him. learning better davening better.
this is not rational, but this is basic Judaism from all corners.
all that said, we need the hishtalus, and we thank the courageous soldiers to no end for their valiant efforts. and we pray to God that our teshuva is sincere because their lives are the ones we are protecting with our learning. and as i said, we must realize that their lives and the direction of this war is in the hands of klal yisroel and its teshuva, and the more we internalize that, the more serious our avoda becomes and the more effort we better put in. because it is up to the bnei torah to change the course of the events. and if soldier R'l don't do so well, it's a sign that we're not doing so well.
hishtadlus is not a charade. it's the world we live in. but neither is the 'real' world of בראשית ברא אלהים, בשביל ישראל שנקראו ראשית
can we rephrase: i'm claiming that the victory of the war depends on national teshuva. the way national teshuva works is that we all come together as a nation and are mechazek our avodas hashem. just like in the army, every soldier does his part and collectively they make a strong team, so to here, everyone does his part and battles his ground, but since we are together it turns into an army of teshuva.
"How on earth are you so sure that charedim are doing a better job of keeping mitzvos than non-charedim? There's reason to believe that aveiros such as theft and child abuse are much more widespread in charedi society."
Is this not blatant loshon harah?
Slifkin reminds me of what just happened with Trump- he made an international struggle of pain and sadness centred around his narcissistic attitude towards Bibi.
It's an eyeopener how people can be so fixated on their own egos to make situations of such pain into a self-promotion of sorts, and literally try to make divisions in a united- mourning Israel to forward their own self-interests and narcissistic atitudes.
Trump was upset that Bibi congratulated Biden...And Slifkin....
- maybe just stop trying to promote rifts to promote your own complexes.
It's an explicit Chazal that if you raise children without the ability to earn a living, they are likely to resort to theft.
It's explicitly discussed in charedi society that stealing from the state may not be a halachic problem.
It's very clear to everyone who works with abuse that in a community where it is socially unacceptable to report people to the police, abuse is more prevalent.
These are not chiddushim.
And don't accuse me of making divisions in a united Israel. When one entire sector of the population exempts itself from military service, there is no united Israel.
I spent 10 years as a court appointed atty. to defend parents who are accused of neglect and abuse of their children and another 15 years defending these parents as a private atty..The key is reporting ,which can also be anonymous,which prompts
Social Service investigation.Also witnesses testifying against parents.This is not a criminal court. A finding of guilty gives the court the legal authority to protect children by temporarily placing them with relatives.It also gives the in Court the authority to force the accused parents to attend rehabilitation programs and provides other services needed to help stabilize and rehabilitate the home. This is not a criminal conviction. It is dealt with behind closed doors of the Family Court and not open to the public.The rules of evidence are not as strict as in the Criminal Court.The Court is there to help.The goal is to reunite the children with their parents when it is safe,sometimes with limited supervision. Cooperation by the community members is essential,including the testimony of witnesses is vital.
I hope people reading this blog will be convinced to help these children.
involved in neglect and abuse matters I didn't find more neglect and abuse by Chareidim . But when I made Aliya to Israel in 1993 the subject was still under tight wraps in the Charedi community.
There is not more abuse, possibly less, in the charedei community.
The point is how it is dealt with when it is discovered. The charedi community is useless at dealing with it, especially when the perpertrator is in a position of authority.
It like it's even really not a problem halachically to not pay taxes. Although there often is chilul Hashem and then it's assur. But yah it's like a real thing. Especially in Israel where you have the Ran....
About the abuse thing it may not be that there are more cases but conservatives generally are worse about dealing with these issues. But still....
Great whataboutism there. You forget that chareidim pride themselves on being holier than the rest. A more authentic form of genuine Judaism than the rest.
So the classic yeshivish 'goyim do it too' type respnses are nonsense.
It's important to point out, that for the wars in Tanach, like by Gidon specifically, the tzadikim were the ones who were chosen to fight. It wasn't an attitude the talmidei chachamim should learn and the rest should fight. Davka the opposite, the men who have the most zechusim should be the ones to fight for us.
"All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give all of you into our hands."
"No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. A horse is a vain hope for deliverance; despite all its great strength it cannot save."
R Moshe Feinstein contrasts the early Milchomos in Jewish history, such as in Chumash, where their level of Bitochon was so great they could do full military tactics and still remember it's not Kochi VeOtzem Yodi. But as time progressed and our level of Bitochon drops, we have to rely on Nissim (such as the Yom Kippur War) and abandon our trust in full military tactics, because the risk of our venerating Kochi VeOtzem Yodi is so great. I guess he means we still do the tactics and Hishtadlus, but ultimately, be cognisant that it's really Hashem who's the Baal Milchomos
The story of the 4 Kings. The one with the highest level of bitachon was Dovid, who was the one that put forth the most hishtadlus, but attributed his success in battle to Hashem. The least bitachon was Chizkiyahu who didn't even sing Shira, but went to sleep. Chizkiyahu worried that singing Shira would have led him to arrogance, kochi v'etzam yodi (or koli in his case) as it were. Or so it was explained to me.
RY Levovitz & RS Schwab say the same basing on a Medrash contrasting David Hamelech and another 3 kings (from his family, their names escape me right now). That as time went on and there was Yeridas Hadoros, they did less Hishtadlus during their wars, to realize the Yad Hashem. Whereas earlier they did more and were still able to see the Yad Hashem; David doing the most Hishtadus.
They do hishtadlus because we live in this world, the world of hishtadlus. The army they have others but elections only they stand for themselves so they step up their game.
Yeah, they have others dying for them, great hishtadlus.
And you have shown the true colors. It's nothing to do with 'torah protects' (the same torah could protect chareidi political interests too, surely?). It's simply that others are prepared to die, so chareidim don't need to.
I have been saying this all along. Finally you have conceded.
None of the 'nuance' explains the contradiction in chareidland between the army and every thing where hishtadlus is required.
No anti-vax nutcase said 'benei torah' should not wisk the COVID vaccine because torah protects. Nobody tells a childless couple (lo oleinu) that the husband should learn more because torah heals and the zchus of torah will sort them out. On the contrary, when it comes to medical matters, financial matteres chareidim run around and seek all sorts of advice etc.
Nobody tells the benei torah to stay learning and the zechus of torah will help them get 'gimmel' votes. Why are there all these chareidi demonstrations? Just learn torah and torah will protect you from everthing bad that could ever happen.
No, its because others are prepared to fight and die in the army for them, do chareidim don't need to go. Or because they cannot cope with the poor level of ruchniyos in the army. It's nothing to do with torah protects. That's just a soundbite. On the contrary, they depend extra guards when necessary outside kiryat seifer and beitar.
For the record, רב בחיי אבן פקודא, author of תורת חובות הלבבות, seems to endorse a position similar to Rav Dessler. See שער בטחון (generally, and) at the end of שער ג׳ (specifically), and the middle of שער ד.
Ibn Pakuda was a definite rationalist (you could pull a "no true scotsman" argument, but based on reading חובות הלבבות, re really does seem like a rationalist).
See here:
ספר חובות הלבבות שער ד - שער הביטחון פרק ד
וכן בעלי המלאכה והסחורה והשכירות מצווין לחזר על הטרף בהם עם הבטחון באלהים, כי הטרף בידו ורשותו, ושהוא ערב בו לאדם ומשלימו לו באיזו סבה שירצה, ואל יחשב, כי הסבה תועילהו או תזיקהו מאומה. ואם יבא לו טרפו על פנים מאופני הסבות, אשר התעסק בהם, ראוי לו, שלא יבטח על הסבה ההיא וישמח בה ויוסיף להחזיק בה ויטה לבו אליה, כי יחלש בטחונו באלהיו. אך אין ראוי לו לחשב, כי תועילנו יותר ממה שקדם בדעת הבורא
like all of your posts, I read that one when you published it. I don't really understand how it responds to what I said. I quoted a specific early rishon that wrote an idea similar to that of Rav Dessler. I never said that it was mainstream, that we should follow it, or that it is even the purported source of Haredi ideology. That is why I wrote "for the record".
Also, let me make clear that R. Bachya ibn Paquda is not the same R. Bachya as the commentary on the Torah. I'm not sure if your response meant "this is what R. Bachya _really_ thinks", or something else.
Regardless, my point still stands. Someone a long time ago had an opinion similar to Rav Dessler.
I truly believe you need to rethink why you published this. I really like almost all your posts. I am one of your subscribers who subscribes because I like what you have your say.
I am a rational person. I believe that this assault happened because of all the contentiousness of the last year among the Jews of Israel both left and right., haredi, religious nationalists, and secular. Rationally, the contentiousness and the real inability to form a decent government showed a weakeneed State of Israel, making it seem ripe for attack. My "irrational" side believes that this is the result of what happens when Jews fight other Jews disturbing what "should be"--i.e. love of Am Yisroel for each other. It is ironic to me that this happened so close to Tzom Gedalia, our reminder of Jews fighting Jews.
I believe that most Haredi Jews thoroughly support the soldiers, and are grateful. My family is Haredi. My 17 year old grandson donated blood, my 15 year old granddaughter has been busy making food packages for the soldiers, they pray for the welfare of the soldiers.
Israel will, with the help of Hashem, survive the non-particpation of Haredim in the fighting. At some time in the future, the question of exclusion of the Haredim from National Service can be re-evaluated. I believe that nobody should be excluded from National Service just because they step into a Yeshiva or Kollel, but now is not the time to re-evaluate it. Israel will only survive if the people are united.
It was not necessary to publish a disagreement with Rabbi Dessler at this time. All of Israel and Diaspora Jewry are shaken by the horrors. Let us be kind to each other--not encourage disagreements and contentiousness.
However these are biblical poetic verses from Tehilim. Invoked by a man who has contributed more in physical histadluth to defending Israel from her enemies than any other man in history. He probably composed them with a sword in his hand! They reflect his humility and nothing more. If only the Charedi community would engage in some physical hishtadlut whilst reciting these verses. I'd be good with that. Or at least deploy their yeshivot to the border territories of Lebanon and Gaza so we can see some of that "we protect Israel by learning" in action.
How do I know this. Because the Geonic Literatature / Halachic Midrash / Talmud / Rishionim never employ these verses to advise us that we need no military defense. King David's own son Solomon had the largest military presence in an era that was the zenith of Jewish observance and commitment (בזמן שישראל עושין רצונו של מקום). Why didn't he send them all to yeshiva?
Find me a Rambam that quotes one of your verses followed by "And therefore you are ALL exempt from military service if you have a Gemara in your hand". No such thing. So I'm afraid that avoiding the military defense remains bitul mitzvat aseh for all charedim who have abstained from the service. Most of them have so much disdain for those Israelis who protect them and pay for their air-conditioned learning environment, that they won't even show up in the government offices to obtain exemptions.
Reb Natan, I'm curious, after hearing our side from many different commentators, even if you disagree, do you understand where we're coming from at least?
Oh yes. I understand that you are tinokos shenishbu - trapped in a myopic, narcissistic worldview, understandably unwilling to acknowledge that your community is fundamentally failing at sharing the terrible responsibilities placed on the country at this time. Resorting to quoting idealistic aggadata about Torah without any interest in actually figuring out what it means in practical terms as your community grows to 20, 30, 40, 50, 60% of the population of Israel. Totally incapable of understanding how being a large population and proportion of the state means that you have to change your approach.
To put it another way - you have no response to Moshe Rabbeinu's rebuke, so you resort to fantasy and bluster.
what the heck???
I guess that's a no.
are you aware that there are debates going on in the world that Israel is a bunch of Nazis and therefore the massacre, tho not justified, is Israel's fault (for allowing people to have fun near what they perceive as an actual concentration camp called Gaza)? Are you aware that most people in the world are ignorant enough to completely believe that 100%? do you realize that the mainstream media can turn on Israel so darn quickly and turn millions of people to Hamas's side? i hope to God that this all stays relatively tame, but dear God, how easy it is to turn into so many uglier things than anything we're seeing?
you clearly don't understand our side. you call in "idealistic aggadata." you can't get your head wrapped around that we really believe in this stuff as a tenant of basic Judaism, which is sourced heavily in Chazal and the Jews throughout the generations.
here's the deal: if you can't appreciate that there actually is another side with a real, solid world view within authentic Judaism, you're completely tone deaf. just like anyone who is entrapped in an ideology and can't see where the other side is coming from. that is super dangerous. as i said, you may disagree, as i disagree with you. but i strongly understand your side. (not your anger.) i don't think you're narcissistic or a kofer. i do think you missed some stuff in your education. but i wouldn't dare - at this time - make a fight. you're a Jew. I'm a Jew. the chilonim who have that pintele yid are Jews. we have differences, but Hamas couldn't care less, and I hope to God the rest of the world doesn't follow. our job is to stick together despite our differences of opinion.
often when one side can't see the other side, there are labels. all that means is that you actually don't get it at all. in any debate whatsoever, and i mean this really strongly, the labels are only for those who don't get it. now when it comes to a nazi, we don't care to get it; their evil and that's it. but unless it's that level of evil, we'd better come together and stop the name calling and appreciate each other's input whether you agree or not.
you're so into your bein adam l'chavero - dude, it's easy to be politically nice, much harder to be nice to those who are personally different than you when you actually don't see they're side. so you can preach about army duty and stuff, but bein adam l'chavero, klal yisroel coming together as a people is a truckload more important at this moment where things stand, because your preaching is not changing anything, while unity of mind amongst us does, so that God see us as one unit and save us all.
i promise you i'm sitting hear on shpilkes because i know that the chances of the IDF soldiers going in so soon is such a freakin' pachad. there will be civilians, but if they dare hesitate because of that they'll probably die. when its ground to ground combat it's much harder to kill a civilian than it is to shoot a cold distant bomb. ii could hardly sleep last night.
i beg you, please set aside the differences, especially when it's hard because you see our worldview as narcissistic and dangerous. we are not Hamas - let's be together for the sake of whatever ideals we hold of.
No you don't really believe this stuff. You know full well that if all Israel became charedi and avoided army, the country would cease to exist. So you have to address the question of at what point does the charedi community need to change its approach.
i addressed that earlier. if we were all chareidi of course we would have to fight - or leave (the latter being more probable because we aren't quite so zionistic for the most part. we support israel mainly because Jews are living there, אכמ"ל)
please address my more important points
Great, so you agree that the charedi lifestyle wouldn't work on a national scale. What about 70%? 50%? 30%? Who in yhe charedi leadership is showing the slightest interest in figuring out when and how they need to change?
You didn't make any other relevant points
Also that would be akofer of R. Dessler's theory!
my much more relevant point was that now is not the time to discuss this. there are people, our brothers, that are probably going to die tonight and we should be focusing on coming together right now, which is a heck of a lot more important. happy to debate when things calm down. right now we're not changing anything and we need to focus on davening, learning, tzedaka, teshuva and coming together
[edit] your points are important, and i'm not jut happy to discuss; these things *need* to be discussed. real policy issues. just not right now
You just explained very clearly why there is a lot of resentment against the Charedim. You are describing the Charedim as "free riders". You claim that they take advantage of other people risking their lives for their freedom and safety, but if called upon to do this same, that they would simply leave. I don't believe that you are properly characterizing things, but the position you describe is morally indefensible for most people.
I actually don't agree with how you are characterizing things. I believe that the bulk of Charedim would most certainly step to defend the country, but most people remain within the system that they are raised in, so since this is taken care of by others, it is a given that the country is defended and they can go on with their lives. This is why it is the leadership that is the issue. I the leaders said "50% to the army 50% to learning" or whatever, then this could be accomplished. The charedi boys would not say "this is not important, I'll leave". In fact there are plenty that would be quite happy with this, since not everyone is suited to sitting rooted to a seat for 12+ hours per day.
Can we email? davidschulmannn@gmail.com
But until the country is all chareidi it’s ok to refuse to serve and endanger yourselves with everyone else. Cowards….
What would say if there were people like reb Elyashiv, who were really learning all day, do you agree that they should be exempt?
True I just mean if there wasn't enough chiloni or dl army to fight. We don't think there is a final need to be in Israel. If it works out great, if not we'll see... This is quite a long discussion and perhaps not for now....
this goes for all the people yelling at Natan here as well. even if we're right, at this time its more important that we come together
"tenet"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjd56KY5P-BAxVgD1kFHZr6A9EQFnoECCMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffandom-grammar.livejournal.com%2F120532.html&usg=AOvVaw1pYYBUYogAcKDa4ljKPmND&opi=89978449
Your side are cowards and shirkers
" since chareidim should be fighting instead of learning, it is מצוה הבא בעבירה, so their Torah is not a zechus."" Correct. That is exactly what I am saying.
"But since you have zero halachic credentials to argue with the chareidi authorities" You might as well say that I have zero Torah credentials to argue with the charedi authorities who claimed that Chazal were infallible in science. To those who care about contemporary charedi authority, that's a definitive argument. To those who care about real Torah arguments, it just exposes the farce of contemporary charedi rabbinic authority.
No, my point is that this has to do with world outlook. And when you have a major bias, it influences it. Charedim believe that science is dangerous, so therefore they say that it's kefirah. Charedim don't want the spiritual harm of the IDF to their community, so therefore they claim that there is no halachic/hashkafic reason to serve. But everyone else recognizes that this is totally bogus. There is no halachic exemption, not in the Torah, not in the Gemara, not in Rambam. And Moshe Rabbeinu's rebuke has no response.
Your convoluted non- realistic argoments.
Yes from brainwashing non-reality.
btw i agree to you that there are problems. i don't think many of the people learning should be doing that. only people who are toraso umnaso. i'm not sure what the geder of that it either, but many for sure don't qualify. but would you meet me halfway: do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify? because there are plenty of those as well. that's one thing.
and if you meet me here, things change in the discussion.
for example, what age is the draft? just at the age when bachurim are deciding what kind of life they want to live, right? so is there even a good way to know so clearly at that point? and those who don't go to the army and don't go to work but are not putting in their time to learning and avoda, they are doing the wrong thing. but we should be mechanech them to try to get more talmedei chachamim (real ones) because we have a major shortage of that. so should we really be encouraging 18 year olds to go tho work or the army? you're really asking to redefine the system, which is a complicated discussion, if the system is coming from somewhere (i.e. of Torah is actually chashuv for those that really do it right)
" do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify?"
NO!!!! Why on earth does learning Torah all day, even incredibly intensively, provide a justification for not sharing the burden of fighting for our survival? There is absolutely no halachic basis for that. And it's abundantly clear from none other than Moshe Rabbeinu himself that THE BURDEN OF FIGHTING NEEDS TO BE SHARED.
Natan, do you want to discuss halachic basis? what is the halachic basis that anyone needs to join the army? simply, it comes from the need for the citizens in the city to protect each other (although there is a lot to be said on this topic). you keep bringing from milchemes mitzva and the likes; its far from clear that this applies today. the need for security in a Jewish city is a gemara and most poskim who were pro Israeli army (meaning zionistic, non-chareidi talmidei chachomim) thought this was the proper source
there is a clear, unambiguous Rema, THE pillar of Halacha, who says that Talmidei Chachamim (like Reb Elyashiv, see there) are patur from this sort of duty.
You’re a complete fool. Do you actually believe any learning can equal risking your life for klal Yisrael??? They are cowards and shirkers.
אחי, you may disagree, although you'll have to provide your sources, but i am not a fool for going with the chafetz chaim and so so amny many others who bring sources after sources after sources that learning torah is MORE important that saving klala yisroel. for ex. Mordechai Hatzadik's stature was lowered a notch because he had to be busy with protecting ALL of klal yiroel, almost single handedly, as opposed to his prior occupation of being fully devoted to torah. see Toras Habayis from the Chafetz Chaim at length. the practical application of this is complex but it's harldly as black one white 'foolish' as you think from your gut.
No. It’s idiotic. Your stance is idiotic and foolish.
okay אחי, pleasure talking to you
"do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify? because there are plenty of those as well. that's one thing."
No, there are not plenty. Tell me, in a typical yeshivah, what percentage of bochurim are actually known as 'real masmidim', who do that? Very few percentage wise.
Natan Natan Natan. I don't know if I am part of what triggered this post from my previous comments (it's probably narcissistic for me to think that). and you probably have a point when people say hishtadlus doesn't matter. But that isn't the position we take.
(Even your example was a reaction to all of those who pump up hishtadlus too much. I doubt Reb Shalom Cohen really thinks we don't need the army practically. I'm not twisting; his point is that it isn't the army that isn't the one doing it. It is our teshuva (learning is part of that), Tefilah, Tzedaka, it is our closeness with Hashem which is what governs the world. NOT the army. But this isn't to say that we don't need the army. If I'm wrong about reb Shalom Cohen than he's out, he doesn't represent us, and either way we have tremendous הכרת הטוב to the army. but i could hear myself saying such words to bring out a point in proper context. although in his position he should've been more clear, and he's dead wrong for pretending like they don't deserve tremendous tremendous הכרת הטוב.
Here's how we view it. There are two planes of existence. We can call them (A) the real world and (b) Olam Hazeh. we live in olam hazeh and that is our reality. unless we rise way above like the Rambam and Reb Baruch ber and Chizkiyahu hamelch and Reb Shimon Bar Yochai (each of those have specific stories to this affect, not 4 now), we are stuck in this olam hazeh and the rules of olam hazeh govern us. in this world which we live in, hishtadlus is a MUST. without it we die and starve. because we haven't risen above. we need צהל and have only tremendous הכרת הטוב to them for putting their lives on the line; a truly scary prospect. and if not for them it would be us.
but then there is the actual real world, the world of שכר ועונש. in this world we say הכל בשביל ישראל. everything that happens is a message to better ourselves. when there is an עת צרה we daven and do teshuva because that is how things really work.
when it got really hot for אברהם אבינו i'm sure the climate analysts were making cheshbonos why it was so hot. when vinegar went up in price for rav huna (brachos 5b) to sell it at the cost of wine not to lose after doing teshuva for what caused it to turn sour in the first place, i'm sure all the data econ dudes were explaining it all acc. to teva. but we say בשביל ישראל. you know why it was hot? so avraham der tatte shouldn't have guests. you know why the market completely changed and vinegar shot up? the real reason is because of rav huna. you know why efron became the leader? i'm sure there were natural causes and politics and all the pundits were saying how this idiot should reallly not be president an it happened because of the backlash to this ideology or whatever. but the Gemara tells us the real reason why: בשביל ישראל שנקראו ראשית, so avraham should deal with someone chashuv. this is our view of all of history. why hitler came to power, why trump was elected, why oil prces go up, why trgedies happen, why this guy wins a lottery, why the Jews got expelled from [pick your country], why this natural disaster happened, why this natural course of events happened.
the teva is the tool Hashem uses in this world to enact and carry out His will, acc. to שכר ועונש. so when a Yid sees an עת צרה, the spiritual behind the scenes rectifications are the real ones that will save everyone. but like the purim story, there will be a masterful cover up of natural events, like the IDF and IAF and America backing Israel and on and on, which will help us win בעה"ית, but those are the natural fronts. the real deal is our coming closer to him. learning better davening better.
this is not rational, but this is basic Judaism from all corners.
all that said, we need the hishtalus, and we thank the courageous soldiers to no end for their valiant efforts. and we pray to God that our teshuva is sincere because their lives are the ones we are protecting with our learning. and as i said, we must realize that their lives and the direction of this war is in the hands of klal yisroel and its teshuva, and the more we internalize that, the more serious our avoda becomes and the more effort we better put in. because it is up to the bnei torah to change the course of the events. and if soldier R'l don't do so well, it's a sign that we're not doing so well.
hishtadlus is not a charade. it's the world we live in. but neither is the 'real' world of בראשית ברא אלהים, בשביל ישראל שנקראו ראשית
Do you really not see the myopic narcissism of claiming that victory in this war depends on Bnei Torah shteiging harder?
can we rephrase: i'm claiming that the victory of the war depends on national teshuva. the way national teshuva works is that we all come together as a nation and are mechazek our avodas hashem. just like in the army, every soldier does his part and collectively they make a strong team, so to here, everyone does his part and battles his ground, but since we are together it turns into an army of teshuva.
do you find that narcissistic?
very nice presentation, bravo!
quote from Slifkin
"How on earth are you so sure that charedim are doing a better job of keeping mitzvos than non-charedim? There's reason to believe that aveiros such as theft and child abuse are much more widespread in charedi society."
Is this not blatant loshon harah?
Slifkin reminds me of what just happened with Trump- he made an international struggle of pain and sadness centred around his narcissistic attitude towards Bibi.
It's an eyeopener how people can be so fixated on their own egos to make situations of such pain into a self-promotion of sorts, and literally try to make divisions in a united- mourning Israel to forward their own self-interests and narcissistic atitudes.
Trump was upset that Bibi congratulated Biden...And Slifkin....
- maybe just stop trying to promote rifts to promote your own complexes.
It's an explicit Chazal that if you raise children without the ability to earn a living, they are likely to resort to theft.
It's explicitly discussed in charedi society that stealing from the state may not be a halachic problem.
It's very clear to everyone who works with abuse that in a community where it is socially unacceptable to report people to the police, abuse is more prevalent.
These are not chiddushim.
And don't accuse me of making divisions in a united Israel. When one entire sector of the population exempts itself from military service, there is no united Israel.
So I learnt in school, correct me if I'm making a mistake, but lashon harah is even when its true!?
p.s not that I agree any of this is true)
I spent 10 years as a court appointed atty. to defend parents who are accused of neglect and abuse of their children and another 15 years defending these parents as a private atty..The key is reporting ,which can also be anonymous,which prompts
Social Service investigation.Also witnesses testifying against parents.This is not a criminal court. A finding of guilty gives the court the legal authority to protect children by temporarily placing them with relatives.It also gives the in Court the authority to force the accused parents to attend rehabilitation programs and provides other services needed to help stabilize and rehabilitate the home. This is not a criminal conviction. It is dealt with behind closed doors of the Family Court and not open to the public.The rules of evidence are not as strict as in the Criminal Court.The Court is there to help.The goal is to reunite the children with their parents when it is safe,sometimes with limited supervision. Cooperation by the community members is essential,including the testimony of witnesses is vital.
I hope people reading this blog will be convinced to help these children.
I was an Atty. Practicing in NYC.
In my experience as an Atty
involved in neglect and abuse matters I didn't find more neglect and abuse by Chareidim . But when I made Aliya to Israel in 1993 the subject was still under tight wraps in the Charedi community.
There is not more abuse, possibly less, in the charedei community.
The point is how it is dealt with when it is discovered. The charedi community is useless at dealing with it, especially when the perpertrator is in a position of authority.
It like it's even really not a problem halachically to not pay taxes. Although there often is chilul Hashem and then it's assur. But yah it's like a real thing. Especially in Israel where you have the Ran....
About the abuse thing it may not be that there are more cases but conservatives generally are worse about dealing with these issues. But still....
Great whataboutism there. You forget that chareidim pride themselves on being holier than the rest. A more authentic form of genuine Judaism than the rest.
So the classic yeshivish 'goyim do it too' type respnses are nonsense.
100% more religious societies are more family and community oriented
It's important to point out, that for the wars in Tanach, like by Gidon specifically, the tzadikim were the ones who were chosen to fight. It wasn't an attitude the talmidei chachamim should learn and the rest should fight. Davka the opposite, the men who have the most zechusim should be the ones to fight for us.
Indeed important, but has no bearing on R Dessler.
No . It doesn't say the tzadikim. G-d wanted to reveal his power.
My apologies Natan.
Let's try to keep unified.
🕊
we all appreciate it (this is what makes it not narcissistic...)
these are some of the kidnapped kids. https://photo.24liveblog.com/3422333916194946648/20231012174432_053884.jpg
let's remember them before fighting with each other
And finally
2. 1 Samuel 17:47 (NIV):
"All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give all of you into our hands."
You will note from all those quotes that they had an active fighting army. So I am not sure what you are trying to show or what your point is.
Nobody is disputing that ultimately success comes from Hashem. The question is over practical matters.
Proverbs 21:31 (NIV):
"The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but victory rests with the LORD."
Psalm 44:6-7 (NIV):
"I put no trust in my bow, my sword does not bring me victory; but you give us victory over our enemies, you put our adversaries to shame."
So,that means you don't have. to do the best you can to fight?
Psalm 33:16-17 (NIV):
"No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. A horse is a vain hope for deliverance; despite all its great strength it cannot save."
R Moshe Feinstein contrasts the early Milchomos in Jewish history, such as in Chumash, where their level of Bitochon was so great they could do full military tactics and still remember it's not Kochi VeOtzem Yodi. But as time progressed and our level of Bitochon drops, we have to rely on Nissim (such as the Yom Kippur War) and abandon our trust in full military tactics, because the risk of our venerating Kochi VeOtzem Yodi is so great. I guess he means we still do the tactics and Hishtadlus, but ultimately, be cognisant that it's really Hashem who's the Baal Milchomos
The story of the 4 Kings. The one with the highest level of bitachon was Dovid, who was the one that put forth the most hishtadlus, but attributed his success in battle to Hashem. The least bitachon was Chizkiyahu who didn't even sing Shira, but went to sleep. Chizkiyahu worried that singing Shira would have led him to arrogance, kochi v'etzam yodi (or koli in his case) as it were. Or so it was explained to me.
RY Levovitz & RS Schwab say the same basing on a Medrash contrasting David Hamelech and another 3 kings (from his family, their names escape me right now). That as time went on and there was Yeridas Hadoros, they did less Hishtadlus during their wars, to realize the Yad Hashem. Whereas earlier they did more and were still able to see the Yad Hashem; David doing the most Hishtadus.
Right. That's why the charedi community, which has the most bitachon, does the most hishtadlus for elections.
They do hishtadlus because we live in this world, the world of hishtadlus. The army they have others but elections only they stand for themselves so they step up their game.
"The army they have others".
Yeah, they have others dying for them, great hishtadlus.
And you have shown the true colors. It's nothing to do with 'torah protects' (the same torah could protect chareidi political interests too, surely?). It's simply that others are prepared to die, so chareidim don't need to.
I have been saying this all along. Finally you have conceded.
our position is nuanced: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-soldiers-are-really-doing-stuff-82e/comment/41742707
None of the 'nuance' explains the contradiction in chareidland between the army and every thing where hishtadlus is required.
No anti-vax nutcase said 'benei torah' should not wisk the COVID vaccine because torah protects. Nobody tells a childless couple (lo oleinu) that the husband should learn more because torah heals and the zchus of torah will sort them out. On the contrary, when it comes to medical matters, financial matteres chareidim run around and seek all sorts of advice etc.
Nobody tells the benei torah to stay learning and the zechus of torah will help them get 'gimmel' votes. Why are there all these chareidi demonstrations? Just learn torah and torah will protect you from everthing bad that could ever happen.
No, its because others are prepared to fight and die in the army for them, do chareidim don't need to go. Or because they cannot cope with the poor level of ruchniyos in the army. It's nothing to do with torah protects. That's just a soundbite. On the contrary, they depend extra guards when necessary outside kiryat seifer and beitar.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-soldiers-are-really-doing-stuff-82e/comment/41734149
You wouldn’t know what real “Torah” is if it became animated and walked up and bit you on your ass….
I find it sad that something so elementary has to be spelled out to educated Torah Jews.
For the record, רב בחיי אבן פקודא, author of תורת חובות הלבבות, seems to endorse a position similar to Rav Dessler. See שער בטחון (generally, and) at the end of שער ג׳ (specifically), and the middle of שער ד.
Ibn Pakuda was a definite rationalist (you could pull a "no true scotsman" argument, but based on reading חובות הלבבות, re really does seem like a rationalist).
See here:
ספר חובות הלבבות שער ד - שער הביטחון פרק ד
וכן בעלי המלאכה והסחורה והשכירות מצווין לחזר על הטרף בהם עם הבטחון באלהים, כי הטרף בידו ורשותו, ושהוא ערב בו לאדם ומשלימו לו באיזו סבה שירצה, ואל יחשב, כי הסבה תועילהו או תזיקהו מאומה. ואם יבא לו טרפו על פנים מאופני הסבות, אשר התעסק בהם, ראוי לו, שלא יבטח על הסבה ההיא וישמח בה ויוסיף להחזיק בה ויטה לבו אליה, כי יחלש בטחונו באלהיו. אך אין ראוי לו לחשב, כי תועילנו יותר ממה שקדם בדעת הבורא
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/prepare-your-horses
like all of your posts, I read that one when you published it. I don't really understand how it responds to what I said. I quoted a specific early rishon that wrote an idea similar to that of Rav Dessler. I never said that it was mainstream, that we should follow it, or that it is even the purported source of Haredi ideology. That is why I wrote "for the record".
Also, let me make clear that R. Bachya ibn Paquda is not the same R. Bachya as the commentary on the Torah. I'm not sure if your response meant "this is what R. Bachya _really_ thinks", or something else.
Regardless, my point still stands. Someone a long time ago had an opinion similar to Rav Dessler.
Dear Rabbi Slifkin-
I truly believe you need to rethink why you published this. I really like almost all your posts. I am one of your subscribers who subscribes because I like what you have your say.
I am a rational person. I believe that this assault happened because of all the contentiousness of the last year among the Jews of Israel both left and right., haredi, religious nationalists, and secular. Rationally, the contentiousness and the real inability to form a decent government showed a weakeneed State of Israel, making it seem ripe for attack. My "irrational" side believes that this is the result of what happens when Jews fight other Jews disturbing what "should be"--i.e. love of Am Yisroel for each other. It is ironic to me that this happened so close to Tzom Gedalia, our reminder of Jews fighting Jews.
I believe that most Haredi Jews thoroughly support the soldiers, and are grateful. My family is Haredi. My 17 year old grandson donated blood, my 15 year old granddaughter has been busy making food packages for the soldiers, they pray for the welfare of the soldiers.
Israel will, with the help of Hashem, survive the non-particpation of Haredim in the fighting. At some time in the future, the question of exclusion of the Haredim from National Service can be re-evaluated. I believe that nobody should be excluded from National Service just because they step into a Yeshiva or Kollel, but now is not the time to re-evaluate it. Israel will only survive if the people are united.
It was not necessary to publish a disagreement with Rabbi Dessler at this time. All of Israel and Diaspora Jewry are shaken by the horrors. Let us be kind to each other--not encourage disagreements and contentiousness.
Your friend,
Irwin (Yitzchak) Rubin
Also just wondering if you have backtracked on all your "why be upset on tisha baav...everything is awesome"
Dear Joyous . There are several verses of the theme you have invoked. This is my favorite
אֵ֣לֶּה בָ֭רֶכֶב וְאֵ֣לֶּה בַסּוּסִ֑ים
וַאֲנַ֓חְנוּ ׀ בְּשֵׁם־יְהֹוָ֖ה אֱלֹהֵ֣ינוּ נַזְכִּֽיר
However these are biblical poetic verses from Tehilim. Invoked by a man who has contributed more in physical histadluth to defending Israel from her enemies than any other man in history. He probably composed them with a sword in his hand! They reflect his humility and nothing more. If only the Charedi community would engage in some physical hishtadlut whilst reciting these verses. I'd be good with that. Or at least deploy their yeshivot to the border territories of Lebanon and Gaza so we can see some of that "we protect Israel by learning" in action.
How do I know this. Because the Geonic Literatature / Halachic Midrash / Talmud / Rishionim never employ these verses to advise us that we need no military defense. King David's own son Solomon had the largest military presence in an era that was the zenith of Jewish observance and commitment (בזמן שישראל עושין רצונו של מקום). Why didn't he send them all to yeshiva?
Find me a Rambam that quotes one of your verses followed by "And therefore you are ALL exempt from military service if you have a Gemara in your hand". No such thing. So I'm afraid that avoiding the military defense remains bitul mitzvat aseh for all charedim who have abstained from the service. Most of them have so much disdain for those Israelis who protect them and pay for their air-conditioned learning environment, that they won't even show up in the government offices to obtain exemptions.
Isn't something wrong with this Joyous?