Somebody in the earlier post criticized you for minimizing the effect of Tefilah and learning, you weren't doing that over there but you are doing that here.
Rabbi Dessler is saying something very deep and mystical. If somebody (let's say an extremist "rationalist") doesn't believe in mysticism, of course he won't understand it. But he is not saying there is no need for hishtadlus, or that hishtadlus doesn't do anything on the physical plane. This is just a fundamental misinterpretation of his idea. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/its-all-greek-to-me
"This is effectively claiming that young men who are learning in yeshivah are helping significantly more than those who serve in the IDF. And the implication is that ideally people should not join the army"
-No, the implication is that there may not be enough people in yeshiva, (not to mention people who are shomrei shabbos and the rest of the Torah). The zechus of such people is vital.
"The precise nature of God’s providence is complicated and disputed"
-maybe it is complicated on a deep level, but the idea that God assists us and that His assistance depends our zechuyos and tefillah is absolutely fundamental Judaism, not complicated or disputed, and which you appear to be dismissing in this post.
"The Gemara (Makkot 10a) speaks of how the Torah being studied in Jerusalem enabled the nation to succeed in war. But this just means that that those who are unable to fight - the old, the young, the infirm, the unfit "
-not true, it seems like you made that up. See Derech Emunah who understands from the Rambam that Talmidei Chachamim do not need to join the army.
You deny reality.When it affects you personally and charedi society allows your hishtadlut expands accordingly.
Really R.Dessler z"tzal created an illogical theory,that defies reality. With all due respect. Why, שמרת את נפשותיכם! Why do anything! So conveniently when we need something it's still hishtadlut and when the Rov says no to work, education, going to the Army it's lack of faith?! R. Dessler's declaration is not part of the The 13 Principals.
Duh, my Roshei Yeshiva also never said action is an illusion. Why should I care about the gross misinterpretations of R' Dessler by modox amei ha'aretz?!
"But R.D. doesn't say what you try to interpret. He says that action is an illusion. -Again, if somebody reads R' Dessler like a complete am ha'aretz, out of context, then of course he won't understand him. I can't help you with that.
"No it's you and your convoluted pilpull."
Like I said, to an ע"ה, everything is a "convoluted pilpul".
"Roshei Yeshiva from top European Yeshivot.That your Roshei Yeshiva couldn't touch!"
-Very mature. My daddy's stronger than your daddy! Looks like you didn't learn anything from that Rosh Yeshiva though. What a shame.
Yes and we have בחירה and wherever man determines to go G-d will help him,i.e. freedom of action. Also אין סומכים על הנס,We deal with the natural world through appropriate and meaningful action.
we can have this argument for hours. we probably mostly agree about this stuff in general. the question becomes when the hishtadlus affects avodas Hashem
You can believe in the preeminence of Mitzvot, learning Torah etc. In determining physical matters, hashgachah pratit and still believe that human effort and skill caused the result as part of the equation which has many factors and still G-d controls and activates the world. The Natural World is the way G-d makes the world run. But it doesn't exclude the other factors.That's why we say "with the help of G-d.But G-d wants us to act according to nature and human effort and skill does matter. But the other factors also matter.He commands to act in this world and to do and so he wants us and expects us to act according to nature. This is our duty. To do so within the framework of the Torah.So again why your formulation and interpretation that rejects human action as basic . If I misunderstood you please explain! And when does hishtadlut begin and end? Why bother with a great deal of hishtadlut when even a little is enough? Please answer chuchim.
Now you are sounding reasonable! Nobody rejects human action, but the Torah does make it clear that spiritual effort is more important. I can't tell you exactly where hishtadlus begins and ends, neither can anybody else. Even complete atheists can't agree on exactly how much hishtadlus is necessary.
To depend on spiritual action to accomplish in this world isi you n the realm of נס which we don't rely on. This means that human action is primary. We can only pray for G-d'shelp.
But R.D. doesn't say what you try to interpret. He says that action is an illusion. Reminds me of India with it's rejection of reality. We can believe in a world where action is meaningful and still believe in Providenre.
Spiritual action must be part of appropriate natural world action. We are not experiencing kriat yam soof.. Of course is above all but that doesn't mean that you can intentionally reduce your efforts using lnatural means such as
If you don't know how much hishtadlut to do how do you "decide" when to stop your efforts? How much learning and how much hishtadlut? It sounds arbitrary and subjective?
Reb Natan, I'm curious, after hearing our side from many different commentators, even if you disagree, do you understand where we're coming from at least?
Oh yes. I understand that you are tinokos shenishbu - trapped in a myopic, narcissistic worldview, understandably unwilling to acknowledge that your community is fundamentally failing at sharing the terrible responsibilities placed on the country at this time. Resorting to quoting idealistic aggadata about Torah without any interest in actually figuring out what it means in practical terms as your community grows to 20, 30, 40, 50, 60% of the population of Israel. Totally incapable of understanding how being a large population and proportion of the state means that you have to change your approach.
To put it another way - you have no response to Moshe Rabbeinu's rebuke, so you resort to fantasy and bluster.
are you aware that there are debates going on in the world that Israel is a bunch of Nazis and therefore the massacre, tho not justified, is Israel's fault (for allowing people to have fun near what they perceive as an actual concentration camp called Gaza)? Are you aware that most people in the world are ignorant enough to completely believe that 100%? do you realize that the mainstream media can turn on Israel so darn quickly and turn millions of people to Hamas's side? i hope to God that this all stays relatively tame, but dear God, how easy it is to turn into so many uglier things than anything we're seeing?
you clearly don't understand our side. you call in "idealistic aggadata." you can't get your head wrapped around that we really believe in this stuff as a tenant of basic Judaism, which is sourced heavily in Chazal and the Jews throughout the generations.
here's the deal: if you can't appreciate that there actually is another side with a real, solid world view within authentic Judaism, you're completely tone deaf. just like anyone who is entrapped in an ideology and can't see where the other side is coming from. that is super dangerous. as i said, you may disagree, as i disagree with you. but i strongly understand your side. (not your anger.) i don't think you're narcissistic or a kofer. i do think you missed some stuff in your education. but i wouldn't dare - at this time - make a fight. you're a Jew. I'm a Jew. the chilonim who have that pintele yid are Jews. we have differences, but Hamas couldn't care less, and I hope to God the rest of the world doesn't follow. our job is to stick together despite our differences of opinion.
often when one side can't see the other side, there are labels. all that means is that you actually don't get it at all. in any debate whatsoever, and i mean this really strongly, the labels are only for those who don't get it. now when it comes to a nazi, we don't care to get it; their evil and that's it. but unless it's that level of evil, we'd better come together and stop the name calling and appreciate each other's input whether you agree or not.
you're so into your bein adam l'chavero - dude, it's easy to be politically nice, much harder to be nice to those who are personally different than you when you actually don't see they're side. so you can preach about army duty and stuff, but bein adam l'chavero, klal yisroel coming together as a people is a truckload more important at this moment where things stand, because your preaching is not changing anything, while unity of mind amongst us does, so that God see us as one unit and save us all.
i promise you i'm sitting hear on shpilkes because i know that the chances of the IDF soldiers going in so soon is such a freakin' pachad. there will be civilians, but if they dare hesitate because of that they'll probably die. when its ground to ground combat it's much harder to kill a civilian than it is to shoot a cold distant bomb. ii could hardly sleep last night.
i beg you, please set aside the differences, especially when it's hard because you see our worldview as narcissistic and dangerous. we are not Hamas - let's be together for the sake of whatever ideals we hold of.
No you don't really believe this stuff. You know full well that if all Israel became charedi and avoided army, the country would cease to exist. So you have to address the question of at what point does the charedi community need to change its approach.
Very bad reasoning. Because chareidim know very well that they will have to make changes once they become 60% of the population (such as becoming a medinat halacha, among many other things), therefore they don't believe in the basics of the Torah (the thing you seem to be characterizing as " idealistic aggadata")?! What kind of twisted/infantile logic is that? השנא מקלקלת את השורה.
i addressed that earlier. if we were all chareidi of course we would have to fight - or leave (the latter being more probable because we aren't quite so zionistic for the most part. we support israel mainly because Jews are living there, אכמ"ל)
Great, so you agree that the charedi lifestyle wouldn't work on a national scale. What about 70%? 50%? 30%? Who in yhe charedi leadership is showing the slightest interest in figuring out when and how they need to change?
my much more relevant point was that now is not the time to discuss this. there are people, our brothers, that are probably going to die tonight and we should be focusing on coming together right now, which is a heck of a lot more important. happy to debate when things calm down. right now we're not changing anything and we need to focus on davening, learning, tzedaka, teshuva and coming together
[edit] your points are important, and i'm not jut happy to discuss; these things *need* to be discussed. real policy issues. just not right now
You just explained very clearly why there is a lot of resentment against the Charedim. You are describing the Charedim as "free riders". You claim that they take advantage of other people risking their lives for their freedom and safety, but if called upon to do this same, that they would simply leave. I don't believe that you are properly characterizing things, but the position you describe is morally indefensible for most people.
I actually don't agree with how you are characterizing things. I believe that the bulk of Charedim would most certainly step to defend the country, but most people remain within the system that they are raised in, so since this is taken care of by others, it is a given that the country is defended and they can go on with their lives. This is why it is the leadership that is the issue. I the leaders said "50% to the army 50% to learning" or whatever, then this could be accomplished. The charedi boys would not say "this is not important, I'll leave". In fact there are plenty that would be quite happy with this, since not everyone is suited to sitting rooted to a seat for 12+ hours per day.
True I just mean if there wasn't enough chiloni or dl army to fight. We don't think there is a final need to be in Israel. If it works out great, if not we'll see... This is quite a long discussion and perhaps not for now....
It really doesn't help you case to call fundamental Judaism a "myopic, narcissistic worldview" and "idealistic aggadata" and "fantasy and bluster". Do you believe that Torah and mitzvos really, *practically* protect (you have given mixed messages in the past about this, to put it mildly)? Then it is not fantasy and bluster.
So at best you can argue that since chareidim should be fighting instead of learning, it is מצוה הבא בעבירה, so their Torah is not a zechus. But since you have zero halachic credentials to argue with the chareidi authorities who rule that yeshiva students are patur (at least from this secular zionist army as it is now), this argument falls flat.
But in any case, even if you would be right, Torah protects is not fantasy and bluster. It is not a idealistic aggadata. It is not a myopic, narcissistic worldview. It is true and real. You shouldn't be using anti-Torah rhetoric if you are trying to support a Torah point.
" since chareidim should be fighting instead of learning, it is מצוה הבא בעבירה, so their Torah is not a zechus."" Correct. That is exactly what I am saying.
"But since you have zero halachic credentials to argue with the chareidi authorities" You might as well say that I have zero Torah credentials to argue with the charedi authorities who claimed that Chazal were infallible in science. To those who care about contemporary charedi authority, that's a definitive argument. To those who care about real Torah arguments, it just exposes the farce of contemporary charedi rabbinic authority.
That's really silly. Because you think the chareidi Gedolim were wrong in one area, you are entitled to argue with them in any area? You're all of the sudden a greater posek than them? What kind of crazy logic is that? In what universe is that even remotely considered an argument? You don't have any Torah arguments at all. Not even a single plausible attempt.
No, my point is that this has to do with world outlook. And when you have a major bias, it influences it. Charedim believe that science is dangerous, so therefore they say that it's kefirah. Charedim don't want the spiritual harm of the IDF to their community, so therefore they claim that there is no halachic/hashkafic reason to serve. But everyone else recognizes that this is totally bogus. There is no halachic exemption, not in the Torah, not in the Gemara, not in Rambam. And Moshe Rabbeinu's rebuke has no response.
I'm sorry, everybody knows you clearly have much larger biases than even regular chareidim, kal v'chomer the Gedolim. You are simply and ridiculously asserting that you know more halacha than the greatest poskim. That's all you're doing here.
Those who thinks it's bogus only think that because they don't believe in the protection of Torah and Mitzvos, generally, because they don't believe in the Torah in the first place. That's the "everyone else". Those who believe in the Torah are faithful Jews who of course know about the protection of the Torah and Mitzvos.
There is no obligation for everybody to fight in the army as seen in countless places, and as the Rambam rules. The fact that you think a verse in Chumash refutes poskim much greater than you is ridiculously hubristic, and is a testament, to quote you, to your "myopic, narcissistic worldview". If you really cared about the rebuke of Moshe Rabbeinu, you would care about his rebuke regarding the nation keeping Shabbos, taharas hamishpacha etc, the rest of the Torah. You have no response to that, nor can you ever give one.
btw i agree to you that there are problems. i don't think many of the people learning should be doing that. only people who are toraso umnaso. i'm not sure what the geder of that it either, but many for sure don't qualify. but would you meet me halfway: do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify? because there are plenty of those as well. that's one thing.
and if you meet me here, things change in the discussion.
for example, what age is the draft? just at the age when bachurim are deciding what kind of life they want to live, right? so is there even a good way to know so clearly at that point? and those who don't go to the army and don't go to work but are not putting in their time to learning and avoda, they are doing the wrong thing. but we should be mechanech them to try to get more talmedei chachamim (real ones) because we have a major shortage of that. so should we really be encouraging 18 year olds to go tho work or the army? you're really asking to redefine the system, which is a complicated discussion, if the system is coming from somewhere (i.e. of Torah is actually chashuv for those that really do it right)
" do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify?"
NO!!!! Why on earth does learning Torah all day, even incredibly intensively, provide a justification for not sharing the burden of fighting for our survival? There is absolutely no halachic basis for that. And it's abundantly clear from none other than Moshe Rabbeinu himself that THE BURDEN OF FIGHTING NEEDS TO BE SHARED.
Natan, do you want to discuss halachic basis? what is the halachic basis that anyone needs to join the army? simply, it comes from the need for the citizens in the city to protect each other (although there is a lot to be said on this topic). you keep bringing from milchemes mitzva and the likes; its far from clear that this applies today. the need for security in a Jewish city is a gemara and most poskim who were pro Israeli army (meaning zionistic, non-chareidi talmidei chachomim) thought this was the proper source
there is a clear, unambiguous Rema, THE pillar of Halacha, who says that Talmidei Chachamim (like Reb Elyashiv, see there) are patur from this sort of duty.
It's likewise abundantly clear from none other than Moshe Rabbeinu himself and from all the nevi'im that the burden of learning Torah needs to be shared. The burden of keeping Shabbos needs to be shared. The burden of keeping taharas hamishpacha needs to be shared. Nobody is exempt. Not even Leviim. Not even Cohanim. An entire segment of society can't just say, we are not keeping Shabbos, and you guys don't worry about it.
"Why on earth does learning Torah all day, even incredibly intensively, provide a justification for not sharing the burden of fighting for our survival? There is absolutely no halachic basis for that."
-Yeah, there is a Rambam that says it, as the Derech Emunah explains. On the other hand, there is no source that all Jews in Israel must be in the army at all times, despite the fact that there is always a need for national defense.
אחי, you may disagree, although you'll have to provide your sources, but i am not a fool for going with the chafetz chaim and so so amny many others who bring sources after sources after sources that learning torah is MORE important that saving klala yisroel. for ex. Mordechai Hatzadik's stature was lowered a notch because he had to be busy with protecting ALL of klal yiroel, almost single handedly, as opposed to his prior occupation of being fully devoted to torah. see Toras Habayis from the Chafetz Chaim at length. the practical application of this is complex but it's harldly as black one white 'foolish' as you think from your gut.
"do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify? because there are plenty of those as well. that's one thing."
No, there are not plenty. Tell me, in a typical yeshivah, what percentage of bochurim are actually known as 'real masmidim', who do that? Very few percentage wise.
Natan Natan Natan. I don't know if I am part of what triggered this post from my previous comments (it's probably narcissistic for me to think that). and you probably have a point when people say hishtadlus doesn't matter. But that isn't the position we take.
(Even your example was a reaction to all of those who pump up hishtadlus too much. I doubt Reb Shalom Cohen really thinks we don't need the army practically. I'm not twisting; his point is that it isn't the army that isn't the one doing it. It is our teshuva (learning is part of that), Tefilah, Tzedaka, it is our closeness with Hashem which is what governs the world. NOT the army. But this isn't to say that we don't need the army. If I'm wrong about reb Shalom Cohen than he's out, he doesn't represent us, and either way we have tremendous הכרת הטוב to the army. but i could hear myself saying such words to bring out a point in proper context. although in his position he should've been more clear, and he's dead wrong for pretending like they don't deserve tremendous tremendous הכרת הטוב.
Here's how we view it. There are two planes of existence. We can call them (A) the real world and (b) Olam Hazeh. we live in olam hazeh and that is our reality. unless we rise way above like the Rambam and Reb Baruch ber and Chizkiyahu hamelch and Reb Shimon Bar Yochai (each of those have specific stories to this affect, not 4 now), we are stuck in this olam hazeh and the rules of olam hazeh govern us. in this world which we live in, hishtadlus is a MUST. without it we die and starve. because we haven't risen above. we need צהל and have only tremendous הכרת הטוב to them for putting their lives on the line; a truly scary prospect. and if not for them it would be us.
but then there is the actual real world, the world of שכר ועונש. in this world we say הכל בשביל ישראל. everything that happens is a message to better ourselves. when there is an עת צרה we daven and do teshuva because that is how things really work.
when it got really hot for אברהם אבינו i'm sure the climate analysts were making cheshbonos why it was so hot. when vinegar went up in price for rav huna (brachos 5b) to sell it at the cost of wine not to lose after doing teshuva for what caused it to turn sour in the first place, i'm sure all the data econ dudes were explaining it all acc. to teva. but we say בשביל ישראל. you know why it was hot? so avraham der tatte shouldn't have guests. you know why the market completely changed and vinegar shot up? the real reason is because of rav huna. you know why efron became the leader? i'm sure there were natural causes and politics and all the pundits were saying how this idiot should reallly not be president an it happened because of the backlash to this ideology or whatever. but the Gemara tells us the real reason why: בשביל ישראל שנקראו ראשית, so avraham should deal with someone chashuv. this is our view of all of history. why hitler came to power, why trump was elected, why oil prces go up, why trgedies happen, why this guy wins a lottery, why the Jews got expelled from [pick your country], why this natural disaster happened, why this natural course of events happened.
the teva is the tool Hashem uses in this world to enact and carry out His will, acc. to שכר ועונש. so when a Yid sees an עת צרה, the spiritual behind the scenes rectifications are the real ones that will save everyone. but like the purim story, there will be a masterful cover up of natural events, like the IDF and IAF and America backing Israel and on and on, which will help us win בעה"ית, but those are the natural fronts. the real deal is our coming closer to him. learning better davening better.
this is not rational, but this is basic Judaism from all corners.
all that said, we need the hishtalus, and we thank the courageous soldiers to no end for their valiant efforts. and we pray to God that our teshuva is sincere because their lives are the ones we are protecting with our learning. and as i said, we must realize that their lives and the direction of this war is in the hands of klal yisroel and its teshuva, and the more we internalize that, the more serious our avoda becomes and the more effort we better put in. because it is up to the bnei torah to change the course of the events. and if soldier R'l don't do so well, it's a sign that we're not doing so well.
hishtadlus is not a charade. it's the world we live in. but neither is the 'real' world of בראשית ברא אלהים, בשביל ישראל שנקראו ראשית
can we rephrase: i'm claiming that the victory of the war depends on national teshuva. the way national teshuva works is that we all come together as a nation and are mechazek our avodas hashem. just like in the army, every soldier does his part and collectively they make a strong team, so to here, everyone does his part and battles his ground, but since we are together it turns into an army of teshuva.
If you stopped your shtussim and havalim, and sat down in front of a Gemara and really tried to understand what was taught, you would also affect the victory of this war.
Nobody has a monopoly on Torah. All you have to do is believe in it, and your Torah is included.
"How on earth are you so sure that charedim are doing a better job of keeping mitzvos than non-charedim? There's reason to believe that aveiros such as theft and child abuse are much more widespread in charedi society."
Is this not blatant loshon harah?
Slifkin reminds me of what just happened with Trump- he made an international struggle of pain and sadness centred around his narcissistic attitude towards Bibi.
It's an eyeopener how people can be so fixated on their own egos to make situations of such pain into a self-promotion of sorts, and literally try to make divisions in a united- mourning Israel to forward their own self-interests and narcissistic atitudes.
Trump was upset that Bibi congratulated Biden...And Slifkin....
- maybe just stop trying to promote rifts to promote your own complexes.
It's an explicit Chazal that if you raise children without the ability to earn a living, they are likely to resort to theft.
It's explicitly discussed in charedi society that stealing from the state may not be a halachic problem.
It's very clear to everyone who works with abuse that in a community where it is socially unacceptable to report people to the police, abuse is more prevalent.
These are not chiddushim.
And don't accuse me of making divisions in a united Israel. When one entire sector of the population exempts itself from military service, there is no united Israel.
If stealing from the State of Israel is Halachically acceptable, it is not included in Chazal's exhortation to prevent your child from resorting to theft. Because it is not theft. (I didn't take this position, I am merely pointing out the logical fallacy in what you write)
I would also love to hear how many people 'who works with abuse' you have spoken to about this issue. I suggest the number is the answer to 'what is 84 times zero'. You spoke to nobody, you made it up. You took a ride on the abuse issue, because why not? It helps your hatefest, and that's all this is about.
I spent 10 years as a court appointed atty. to defend parents who are accused of neglect and abuse of their children and another 15 years defending these parents as a private atty..The key is reporting ,which can also be anonymous,which prompts
Social Service investigation.Also witnesses testifying against parents.This is not a criminal court. A finding of guilty gives the court the legal authority to protect children by temporarily placing them with relatives.It also gives the in Court the authority to force the accused parents to attend rehabilitation programs and provides other services needed to help stabilize and rehabilitate the home. This is not a criminal conviction. It is dealt with behind closed doors of the Family Court and not open to the public.The rules of evidence are not as strict as in the Criminal Court.The Court is there to help.The goal is to reunite the children with their parents when it is safe,sometimes with limited supervision. Cooperation by the community members is essential,including the testimony of witnesses is vital.
I hope people reading this blog will be convinced to help these children.
And the "explicity discussed that stealing from the state may not be a halachic problem" is in Torah journals just like millions of other theoretical questions (would you rather they CENSOR it?), just like how in the DL community, it is explicitly discussed that it may be ok to take a Palestinian יפת תואר, there are no normal poskim who allow it.
involved in neglect and abuse matters I didn't find more neglect and abuse by Chareidim . But when I made Aliya to Israel in 1993 the subject was still under tight wraps in the Charedi community.
There is not more abuse, possibly less, in the charedei community.
The point is how it is dealt with when it is discovered. The charedi community is useless at dealing with it, especially when the perpertrator is in a position of authority.
It like it's even really not a problem halachically to not pay taxes. Although there often is chilul Hashem and then it's assur. But yah it's like a real thing. Especially in Israel where you have the Ran....
About the abuse thing it may not be that there are more cases but conservatives generally are worse about dealing with these issues. But still....
Great whataboutism there. You forget that chareidim pride themselves on being holier than the rest. A more authentic form of genuine Judaism than the rest.
So the classic yeshivish 'goyim do it too' type respnses are nonsense.
It's important to point out, that for the wars in Tanach, like by Gidon specifically, the tzadikim were the ones who were chosen to fight. It wasn't an attitude the talmidei chachamim should learn and the rest should fight. Davka the opposite, the men who have the most zechusim should be the ones to fight for us.
The lesson there is, when you want to *really* minimize the hishtadlus, you just take the biggest tzadikim and send everybody else home. Is that what you recommend in this case?
"All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give all of you into our hands."
"No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. A horse is a vain hope for deliverance; despite all its great strength it cannot save."
R Moshe Feinstein contrasts the early Milchomos in Jewish history, such as in Chumash, where their level of Bitochon was so great they could do full military tactics and still remember it's not Kochi VeOtzem Yodi. But as time progressed and our level of Bitochon drops, we have to rely on Nissim (such as the Yom Kippur War) and abandon our trust in full military tactics, because the risk of our venerating Kochi VeOtzem Yodi is so great. I guess he means we still do the tactics and Hishtadlus, but ultimately, be cognisant that it's really Hashem who's the Baal Milchomos
The story of the 4 Kings. The one with the highest level of bitachon was Dovid, who was the one that put forth the most hishtadlus, but attributed his success in battle to Hashem. The least bitachon was Chizkiyahu who didn't even sing Shira, but went to sleep. Chizkiyahu worried that singing Shira would have led him to arrogance, kochi v'etzam yodi (or koli in his case) as it were. Or so it was explained to me.
RY Levovitz & RS Schwab say the same basing on a Medrash contrasting David Hamelech and another 3 kings (from his family, their names escape me right now). That as time went on and there was Yeridas Hadoros, they did less Hishtadlus during their wars, to realize the Yad Hashem. Whereas earlier they did more and were still able to see the Yad Hashem; David doing the most Hishtadus.
They do hishtadlus because we live in this world, the world of hishtadlus. The army they have others but elections only they stand for themselves so they step up their game.
Yeah, they have others dying for them, great hishtadlus.
And you have shown the true colors. It's nothing to do with 'torah protects' (the same torah could protect chareidi political interests too, surely?). It's simply that others are prepared to die, so chareidim don't need to.
I have been saying this all along. Finally you have conceded.
None of the 'nuance' explains the contradiction in chareidland between the army and every thing where hishtadlus is required.
No anti-vax nutcase said 'benei torah' should not wisk the COVID vaccine because torah protects. Nobody tells a childless couple (lo oleinu) that the husband should learn more because torah heals and the zchus of torah will sort them out. On the contrary, when it comes to medical matters, financial matteres chareidim run around and seek all sorts of advice etc.
Nobody tells the benei torah to stay learning and the zechus of torah will help them get 'gimmel' votes. Why are there all these chareidi demonstrations? Just learn torah and torah will protect you from everthing bad that could ever happen.
No, its because others are prepared to fight and die in the army for them, do chareidim don't need to go. Or because they cannot cope with the poor level of ruchniyos in the army. It's nothing to do with torah protects. That's just a soundbite. On the contrary, they depend extra guards when necessary outside kiryat seifer and beitar.
No primary sources, no actual knowledge of Rishonim, no clear Mar'eh Mekomos, just a sociological point made by some expert on goats' droppings, with a Dr. to his name.
As I always say, these posts belong on truth613.substack.com. Together with the anti-vaxxer rhetoric of those who refuse to study medicine.
If someone wants to know the sugya and understand the interplay between hishtadlus and success, learn the Rishonim, from the Chovas Halevavos to the Rambam. The Mefarshim on Chumash, including the Ohr Hachaim, as well as many other sources discuss this. Don't allow an am ha'aretz to dictate to you his stomach aches.
Oct 13, 2023·edited Oct 13, 2023Liked by Natan Slifkin
Yes, and none of those seforim deal with the main contradiction in Chareidiland.
When it comes to the army, torah protects blah blah blah.
When it comes to money, medical issues, political issues, it's never torah protects. Not a single anti-vaccer nutcase used 'torah protects' as a reason why 'benei torah' don't need to take the risks of the covid vaccine. Because, in practice, the real reason not becoming involved in the army is other people do it. Torah protects is a convenient soundbite.
Sure, in all of those cases, it's also Torah protects. That's why chareidim do less hishtadlus in terms of parnassa, and as we saw with covid, less hishtadlus in terms of health. These are things that Slifkin complains about incessantly. So I wonder why he "likes" this obviously false comment?
They don't do less hishtadlus in terms of parnossoh. Their 'hishtadlus' is simply running around milking everyone they can for money. Through fair means and dodgy means. Like with the army, using others do do their work.
A true parellel to the army with learning would be learning and doing nothing else but learning. Which is not the case. And yes, for those that can, when the money runs out they go and work. They do not rely solely on torah.
Look at cancer, infertility etc. Chareidim run around just like everyone else, looking for the best doctors etc never relying on "torah heals" and protects which chazal also say. Covid is a bad example because it was just ignorance, but in any event no anti vaccer ever used 'torah protects'. With COVID they did not use torah protects, the arguments were science is nonsense etc etc.
If they did the same hishtadlus, they would make as much money as everybody else. If they did the same hishtadlus, they would only learn for an hour a day or so, like most kovea itim ba'alei batim. If you think they are running around all day, that is another indication that you need your medication https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/we-must-do-more/comment/41772349
Your chiluk between covid and cancer is likewise nonsense. They are ignorant of Covid but all of the sudden big experts when it comes to cancer and fertility? No, with Covid, Torah was threatened by shutting schools and shuls, so they relied on the protection of Torah, like RCK said. Same as army service.
They are not big experts in cancer and fertility. They run around sourcing the big experts with all sorts of communal organisations dedicated to this (nothing wrong with that). What they do NOT do is quote numerous ma'amorie chazal about how torah is marpeh and all that is needed is a bit more learning. Because unlike army sevice, nobody can take on the infertility and cancer for them. Nothing to do with 'torah protects' which is a convenient smokescreen.
Wow, a lot of sense you make now. They have no interest in experts when it comes to covid, but all of the sudden run for the experts when it comes to cancer and fertility! And you have never seen chareidim quoting numerous ma'amorie chazal about how torah is marpeh, right? What a sane and mentally-balanced person you are showing yourself to be. The person who really needs to run around sourcing the big experts is yourself, for your particular condition. See my comment with the link
Noson wrote, "The Gemara (Makkot 10a) speaks of how the Torah being studied in Jerusalem enabled the nation to succeed in war. But this just means that that those who are unable to fight - the old, the young, the infirm, the unfit - and who are focused on learning and teaching Torah.
NOSON you falsely claim the Gemora refers to the "old, the young, the infirm, the unfit." It obviously refers to all who learn Torah L'shma, whether it is people who make "torasam umnasom" or a soldier on the field, that during a lull in battle takes out a sefer to learn.
א״ר יהושע בן לוי, מאי דכתיב: (תהלים קכ״ב) עומדות היו רגלינו בשעריך ירושלים? מי גרם לרגלינו שיעמדו במלחמה? שערי ירושלם שהיו עוסקים בתורה.
Here what else it says on that daf:
מאי דכתיב: (ירמיהו נ׳) חרב אל הבדים ונואלו? חרב על צוארי שונאיהם של ת״ח שיושבין ועוסקין בתורה בד בבדֹ
To be honest I am surprised at you for your diatribe of Rav Dessler. You were very close to the late great Rabbi Aryeh Carmell, who was a talmid muvhak of Rav Dessler and worked on Michtav M'eliyahu. Did he understand his rebbe's Torah so disparagingly as you did?
The primacy of spiritual hishtadlus over physical hishtadlus is basic Judaism, I am sorry that you appear to be dismissing it.
לֹ֤א בִגְבוּרַ֣ת הַסּ֣וּס יֶחְפָּ֑ץ לֹֽא־בְשׁוֹקֵ֖י הָאִ֣ישׁ יִרְצֶֽה׃
רוֹצֶ֣ה יְ֭הוָה אֶת־יְרֵאָ֑יו אֶת־הַֽמְיַחֲלִ֥ים לְחַסְדּֽוֹ
________
אֵֽין־הַ֭מֶּלֶךְ נוֹשָׁ֣ע בְּרׇב־חָ֑יִל גִּ֝בּ֗וֹר לֹא־יִנָּצֵ֥ל בְּרׇב־כֹּֽחַ׃
שֶׁ֣קֶר הַ֭סּוּס לִתְשׁוּעָ֑ה וּבְרֹ֥ב חֵ֝יל֗וֹ לֹ֣א יְמַלֵּֽט׃
הִנֵּ֤ה עֵ֣ין יְ֭הֹוָה אֶל־יְרֵאָ֑יו לַֽמְיַחֲלִ֥ים לְחַסְדּֽוֹ׃
לְהַצִּ֣יל מִמָּ֣וֶת נַפְשָׁ֑ם וּ֝לְחַיּוֹתָ֗ם בָּרָעָֽב׃
See here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect See this also https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-frontlines
Somebody in the earlier post criticized you for minimizing the effect of Tefilah and learning, you weren't doing that over there but you are doing that here.
Rabbi Dessler is saying something very deep and mystical. If somebody (let's say an extremist "rationalist") doesn't believe in mysticism, of course he won't understand it. But he is not saying there is no need for hishtadlus, or that hishtadlus doesn't do anything on the physical plane. This is just a fundamental misinterpretation of his idea. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/its-all-greek-to-me
"This is effectively claiming that young men who are learning in yeshivah are helping significantly more than those who serve in the IDF. And the implication is that ideally people should not join the army"
-No, the implication is that there may not be enough people in yeshiva, (not to mention people who are shomrei shabbos and the rest of the Torah). The zechus of such people is vital.
"The precise nature of God’s providence is complicated and disputed"
-maybe it is complicated on a deep level, but the idea that God assists us and that His assistance depends our zechuyos and tefillah is absolutely fundamental Judaism, not complicated or disputed, and which you appear to be dismissing in this post.
"The Gemara (Makkot 10a) speaks of how the Torah being studied in Jerusalem enabled the nation to succeed in war. But this just means that that those who are unable to fight - the old, the young, the infirm, the unfit "
-not true, it seems like you made that up. See Derech Emunah who understands from the Rambam that Talmidei Chachamim do not need to join the army.
You deny reality.When it affects you personally and charedi society allows your hishtadlut expands accordingly.
Really R.Dessler z"tzal created an illogical theory,that defies reality. With all due respect. Why, שמרת את נפשותיכם! Why do anything! So conveniently when we need something it's still hishtadlut and when the Rov says no to work, education, going to the Army it's lack of faith?! R. Dessler's declaration is not part of the The 13 Principals.
You deny Judaism. You deny the Torah. This has nothing to do with R. Dessler, which Menachem-Martin Gordon and Slifkin anyways terribly misinterpret.
My Roshei Yeshivot never said action is an illusion. They are talked about sacrificing for Torah.That's it. I'm going back 70 + years in the US.
Duh, my Roshei Yeshiva also never said action is an illusion. Why should I care about the gross misinterpretations of R' Dessler by modox amei ha'aretz?!
RD doesn't the word "illusion" to describe human effort,expertise,
and skill to accomplish results?
No, it was written in hebrew
Jerk! Your Happy with your idiotic insults. Worse than am haretz . Can't understand the simple text.
Roshei Yeshiva from top European Yeshivot.That your Roshei Yeshiva couldn't touch!
No it's you and your convoluted pilpull.
"But R.D. doesn't say what you try to interpret. He says that action is an illusion. -Again, if somebody reads R' Dessler like a complete am ha'aretz, out of context, then of course he won't understand him. I can't help you with that.
"No it's you and your convoluted pilpull."
Like I said, to an ע"ה, everything is a "convoluted pilpul".
"Roshei Yeshiva from top European Yeshivot.That your Roshei Yeshiva couldn't touch!"
-Very mature. My daddy's stronger than your daddy! Looks like you didn't learn anything from that Rosh Yeshiva though. What a shame.
שהוא בורא ומנהיג לכל הברואים והוא לבדו עשה עושה ויעשה כל המעשים
Yes and we have בחירה and wherever man determines to go G-d will help him,i.e. freedom of action. Also אין סומכים על הנס,We deal with the natural world through appropriate and meaningful action.
we can have this argument for hours. we probably mostly agree about this stuff in general. the question becomes when the hishtadlus affects avodas Hashem
When it is illogical and makes no sense, it is "deep" and "mystical".
Again, it's obvious that to an ע"ה, there is no such thing as "deep" and "mystical". Only what he can see and eat. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-soldiers-are-really-doing-stuff-82e/comment/41902664
You can believe in the preeminence of Mitzvot, learning Torah etc. In determining physical matters, hashgachah pratit and still believe that human effort and skill caused the result as part of the equation which has many factors and still G-d controls and activates the world. The Natural World is the way G-d makes the world run. But it doesn't exclude the other factors.That's why we say "with the help of G-d.But G-d wants us to act according to nature and human effort and skill does matter. But the other factors also matter.He commands to act in this world and to do and so he wants us and expects us to act according to nature. This is our duty. To do so within the framework of the Torah.So again why your formulation and interpretation that rejects human action as basic . If I misunderstood you please explain! And when does hishtadlut begin and end? Why bother with a great deal of hishtadlut when even a little is enough? Please answer chuchim.
Now you are sounding reasonable! Nobody rejects human action, but the Torah does make it clear that spiritual effort is more important. I can't tell you exactly where hishtadlus begins and ends, neither can anybody else. Even complete atheists can't agree on exactly how much hishtadlus is necessary.
To depend on spiritual action to accomplish in this world isi you n the realm of נס which we don't rely on. This means that human action is primary. We can only pray for G-d'shelp.
Now you are being unreasonable. You have a messed up conception of Judaism.
But R.D. doesn't say what you try to interpret. He says that action is an illusion. Reminds me of India with it's rejection of reality. We can believe in a world where action is meaningful and still believe in Providenre.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-soldiers-are-really-doing-stuff-82e/comment/41902664
Again you don't understand.
Spiritual action must be part of appropriate natural world action. We are not experiencing kriat yam soof.. Of course is above all but that doesn't mean that you can intentionally reduce your efforts using lnatural means such as
...the army. You don't get to see decide how much action you must take. W
Uh, yeah, you do get to decide.
If you don't know how much hishtadlut to do how do you "decide" when to stop your efforts? How much learning and how much hishtadlut? It sounds arbitrary and subjective?
Reb Natan, I'm curious, after hearing our side from many different commentators, even if you disagree, do you understand where we're coming from at least?
Oh yes. I understand that you are tinokos shenishbu - trapped in a myopic, narcissistic worldview, understandably unwilling to acknowledge that your community is fundamentally failing at sharing the terrible responsibilities placed on the country at this time. Resorting to quoting idealistic aggadata about Torah without any interest in actually figuring out what it means in practical terms as your community grows to 20, 30, 40, 50, 60% of the population of Israel. Totally incapable of understanding how being a large population and proportion of the state means that you have to change your approach.
To put it another way - you have no response to Moshe Rabbeinu's rebuke, so you resort to fantasy and bluster.
what the heck???
I guess that's a no.
are you aware that there are debates going on in the world that Israel is a bunch of Nazis and therefore the massacre, tho not justified, is Israel's fault (for allowing people to have fun near what they perceive as an actual concentration camp called Gaza)? Are you aware that most people in the world are ignorant enough to completely believe that 100%? do you realize that the mainstream media can turn on Israel so darn quickly and turn millions of people to Hamas's side? i hope to God that this all stays relatively tame, but dear God, how easy it is to turn into so many uglier things than anything we're seeing?
you clearly don't understand our side. you call in "idealistic aggadata." you can't get your head wrapped around that we really believe in this stuff as a tenant of basic Judaism, which is sourced heavily in Chazal and the Jews throughout the generations.
here's the deal: if you can't appreciate that there actually is another side with a real, solid world view within authentic Judaism, you're completely tone deaf. just like anyone who is entrapped in an ideology and can't see where the other side is coming from. that is super dangerous. as i said, you may disagree, as i disagree with you. but i strongly understand your side. (not your anger.) i don't think you're narcissistic or a kofer. i do think you missed some stuff in your education. but i wouldn't dare - at this time - make a fight. you're a Jew. I'm a Jew. the chilonim who have that pintele yid are Jews. we have differences, but Hamas couldn't care less, and I hope to God the rest of the world doesn't follow. our job is to stick together despite our differences of opinion.
often when one side can't see the other side, there are labels. all that means is that you actually don't get it at all. in any debate whatsoever, and i mean this really strongly, the labels are only for those who don't get it. now when it comes to a nazi, we don't care to get it; their evil and that's it. but unless it's that level of evil, we'd better come together and stop the name calling and appreciate each other's input whether you agree or not.
you're so into your bein adam l'chavero - dude, it's easy to be politically nice, much harder to be nice to those who are personally different than you when you actually don't see they're side. so you can preach about army duty and stuff, but bein adam l'chavero, klal yisroel coming together as a people is a truckload more important at this moment where things stand, because your preaching is not changing anything, while unity of mind amongst us does, so that God see us as one unit and save us all.
i promise you i'm sitting hear on shpilkes because i know that the chances of the IDF soldiers going in so soon is such a freakin' pachad. there will be civilians, but if they dare hesitate because of that they'll probably die. when its ground to ground combat it's much harder to kill a civilian than it is to shoot a cold distant bomb. ii could hardly sleep last night.
i beg you, please set aside the differences, especially when it's hard because you see our worldview as narcissistic and dangerous. we are not Hamas - let's be together for the sake of whatever ideals we hold of.
No you don't really believe this stuff. You know full well that if all Israel became charedi and avoided army, the country would cease to exist. So you have to address the question of at what point does the charedi community need to change its approach.
Very bad reasoning. Because chareidim know very well that they will have to make changes once they become 60% of the population (such as becoming a medinat halacha, among many other things), therefore they don't believe in the basics of the Torah (the thing you seem to be characterizing as " idealistic aggadata")?! What kind of twisted/infantile logic is that? השנא מקלקלת את השורה.
i addressed that earlier. if we were all chareidi of course we would have to fight - or leave (the latter being more probable because we aren't quite so zionistic for the most part. we support israel mainly because Jews are living there, אכמ"ל)
please address my more important points
Great, so you agree that the charedi lifestyle wouldn't work on a national scale. What about 70%? 50%? 30%? Who in yhe charedi leadership is showing the slightest interest in figuring out when and how they need to change?
You didn't make any other relevant points
So your entire complaint has boiled down to, "they will have to change some time in the future".
Right now there is no problem, but you can't see how the change will happen.
Wow!
Also that would be akofer of R. Dessler's theory!
my much more relevant point was that now is not the time to discuss this. there are people, our brothers, that are probably going to die tonight and we should be focusing on coming together right now, which is a heck of a lot more important. happy to debate when things calm down. right now we're not changing anything and we need to focus on davening, learning, tzedaka, teshuva and coming together
[edit] your points are important, and i'm not jut happy to discuss; these things *need* to be discussed. real policy issues. just not right now
You just explained very clearly why there is a lot of resentment against the Charedim. You are describing the Charedim as "free riders". You claim that they take advantage of other people risking their lives for their freedom and safety, but if called upon to do this same, that they would simply leave. I don't believe that you are properly characterizing things, but the position you describe is morally indefensible for most people.
I actually don't agree with how you are characterizing things. I believe that the bulk of Charedim would most certainly step to defend the country, but most people remain within the system that they are raised in, so since this is taken care of by others, it is a given that the country is defended and they can go on with their lives. This is why it is the leadership that is the issue. I the leaders said "50% to the army 50% to learning" or whatever, then this could be accomplished. The charedi boys would not say "this is not important, I'll leave". In fact there are plenty that would be quite happy with this, since not everyone is suited to sitting rooted to a seat for 12+ hours per day.
Can we email? davidschulmannn@gmail.com
Essentially agree with your underlying point, that chareidim are not leaving https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-soldiers-are-really-doing-stuff-82e/comment/41804166
But until the country is all chareidi it’s ok to refuse to serve and endanger yourselves with everyone else. Cowards….
What would say if there were people like reb Elyashiv, who were really learning all day, do you agree that they should be exempt?
Don't agree that the latter is more probable- you think as the chareidim get to 60% of the population in the next 70 or so years, they will all start leaving? That makes as little sense as the secularists threatening to leave because of a fear their taxes will increase (https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/i/136116034/we-were-just-kidding-about-the-whole-zionism-thing)
No, by the time they reach 60% of the population, we will have a medinat halacha with a religious army if moshiach doesn't come by that time (https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-real-problem-with-drafting-chareidim)
True I just mean if there wasn't enough chiloni or dl army to fight. We don't think there is a final need to be in Israel. If it works out great, if not we'll see... This is quite a long discussion and perhaps not for now....
this goes for all the people yelling at Natan here as well. even if we're right, at this time its more important that we come together
"tenet"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjd56KY5P-BAxVgD1kFHZr6A9EQFnoECCMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffandom-grammar.livejournal.com%2F120532.html&usg=AOvVaw1pYYBUYogAcKDa4ljKPmND&opi=89978449
Your side are cowards and shirkers
It really doesn't help you case to call fundamental Judaism a "myopic, narcissistic worldview" and "idealistic aggadata" and "fantasy and bluster". Do you believe that Torah and mitzvos really, *practically* protect (you have given mixed messages in the past about this, to put it mildly)? Then it is not fantasy and bluster.
So at best you can argue that since chareidim should be fighting instead of learning, it is מצוה הבא בעבירה, so their Torah is not a zechus. But since you have zero halachic credentials to argue with the chareidi authorities who rule that yeshiva students are patur (at least from this secular zionist army as it is now), this argument falls flat.
But in any case, even if you would be right, Torah protects is not fantasy and bluster. It is not a idealistic aggadata. It is not a myopic, narcissistic worldview. It is true and real. You shouldn't be using anti-Torah rhetoric if you are trying to support a Torah point.
" since chareidim should be fighting instead of learning, it is מצוה הבא בעבירה, so their Torah is not a zechus."" Correct. That is exactly what I am saying.
"But since you have zero halachic credentials to argue with the chareidi authorities" You might as well say that I have zero Torah credentials to argue with the charedi authorities who claimed that Chazal were infallible in science. To those who care about contemporary charedi authority, that's a definitive argument. To those who care about real Torah arguments, it just exposes the farce of contemporary charedi rabbinic authority.
That's really silly. Because you think the chareidi Gedolim were wrong in one area, you are entitled to argue with them in any area? You're all of the sudden a greater posek than them? What kind of crazy logic is that? In what universe is that even remotely considered an argument? You don't have any Torah arguments at all. Not even a single plausible attempt.
No, my point is that this has to do with world outlook. And when you have a major bias, it influences it. Charedim believe that science is dangerous, so therefore they say that it's kefirah. Charedim don't want the spiritual harm of the IDF to their community, so therefore they claim that there is no halachic/hashkafic reason to serve. But everyone else recognizes that this is totally bogus. There is no halachic exemption, not in the Torah, not in the Gemara, not in Rambam. And Moshe Rabbeinu's rebuke has no response.
I'm sorry, everybody knows you clearly have much larger biases than even regular chareidim, kal v'chomer the Gedolim. You are simply and ridiculously asserting that you know more halacha than the greatest poskim. That's all you're doing here.
Those who thinks it's bogus only think that because they don't believe in the protection of Torah and Mitzvos, generally, because they don't believe in the Torah in the first place. That's the "everyone else". Those who believe in the Torah are faithful Jews who of course know about the protection of the Torah and Mitzvos.
There is no obligation for everybody to fight in the army as seen in countless places, and as the Rambam rules. The fact that you think a verse in Chumash refutes poskim much greater than you is ridiculously hubristic, and is a testament, to quote you, to your "myopic, narcissistic worldview". If you really cared about the rebuke of Moshe Rabbeinu, you would care about his rebuke regarding the nation keeping Shabbos, taharas hamishpacha etc, the rest of the Torah. You have no response to that, nor can you ever give one.
Your convoluted non- realistic argoments.
Again, if you consider Judaism non-realistic, that's your problem, not ours.
Yes from brainwashing non-reality.
btw i agree to you that there are problems. i don't think many of the people learning should be doing that. only people who are toraso umnaso. i'm not sure what the geder of that it either, but many for sure don't qualify. but would you meet me halfway: do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify? because there are plenty of those as well. that's one thing.
and if you meet me here, things change in the discussion.
for example, what age is the draft? just at the age when bachurim are deciding what kind of life they want to live, right? so is there even a good way to know so clearly at that point? and those who don't go to the army and don't go to work but are not putting in their time to learning and avoda, they are doing the wrong thing. but we should be mechanech them to try to get more talmedei chachamim (real ones) because we have a major shortage of that. so should we really be encouraging 18 year olds to go tho work or the army? you're really asking to redefine the system, which is a complicated discussion, if the system is coming from somewhere (i.e. of Torah is actually chashuv for those that really do it right)
" do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify?"
NO!!!! Why on earth does learning Torah all day, even incredibly intensively, provide a justification for not sharing the burden of fighting for our survival? There is absolutely no halachic basis for that. And it's abundantly clear from none other than Moshe Rabbeinu himself that THE BURDEN OF FIGHTING NEEDS TO BE SHARED.
Natan, do you want to discuss halachic basis? what is the halachic basis that anyone needs to join the army? simply, it comes from the need for the citizens in the city to protect each other (although there is a lot to be said on this topic). you keep bringing from milchemes mitzva and the likes; its far from clear that this applies today. the need for security in a Jewish city is a gemara and most poskim who were pro Israeli army (meaning zionistic, non-chareidi talmidei chachomim) thought this was the proper source
there is a clear, unambiguous Rema, THE pillar of Halacha, who says that Talmidei Chachamim (like Reb Elyashiv, see there) are patur from this sort of duty.
It's likewise abundantly clear from none other than Moshe Rabbeinu himself and from all the nevi'im that the burden of learning Torah needs to be shared. The burden of keeping Shabbos needs to be shared. The burden of keeping taharas hamishpacha needs to be shared. Nobody is exempt. Not even Leviim. Not even Cohanim. An entire segment of society can't just say, we are not keeping Shabbos, and you guys don't worry about it.
"Why on earth does learning Torah all day, even incredibly intensively, provide a justification for not sharing the burden of fighting for our survival? There is absolutely no halachic basis for that."
-Yeah, there is a Rambam that says it, as the Derech Emunah explains. On the other hand, there is no source that all Jews in Israel must be in the army at all times, despite the fact that there is always a need for national defense.
You’re a complete fool. Do you actually believe any learning can equal risking your life for klal Yisrael??? They are cowards and shirkers.
אחי, you may disagree, although you'll have to provide your sources, but i am not a fool for going with the chafetz chaim and so so amny many others who bring sources after sources after sources that learning torah is MORE important that saving klala yisroel. for ex. Mordechai Hatzadik's stature was lowered a notch because he had to be busy with protecting ALL of klal yiroel, almost single handedly, as opposed to his prior occupation of being fully devoted to torah. see Toras Habayis from the Chafetz Chaim at length. the practical application of this is complex but it's harldly as black one white 'foolish' as you think from your gut.
No. It’s idiotic. Your stance is idiotic and foolish.
okay אחי, pleasure talking to you
"do you agree that people who really learn 3 solid sedarim daily and get up early to learn before shacharis or stay up late at night to learn and all their free time is used for Torah, that they qualify? because there are plenty of those as well. that's one thing."
No, there are not plenty. Tell me, in a typical yeshivah, what percentage of bochurim are actually known as 'real masmidim', who do that? Very few percentage wise.
Natan Natan Natan. I don't know if I am part of what triggered this post from my previous comments (it's probably narcissistic for me to think that). and you probably have a point when people say hishtadlus doesn't matter. But that isn't the position we take.
(Even your example was a reaction to all of those who pump up hishtadlus too much. I doubt Reb Shalom Cohen really thinks we don't need the army practically. I'm not twisting; his point is that it isn't the army that isn't the one doing it. It is our teshuva (learning is part of that), Tefilah, Tzedaka, it is our closeness with Hashem which is what governs the world. NOT the army. But this isn't to say that we don't need the army. If I'm wrong about reb Shalom Cohen than he's out, he doesn't represent us, and either way we have tremendous הכרת הטוב to the army. but i could hear myself saying such words to bring out a point in proper context. although in his position he should've been more clear, and he's dead wrong for pretending like they don't deserve tremendous tremendous הכרת הטוב.
Here's how we view it. There are two planes of existence. We can call them (A) the real world and (b) Olam Hazeh. we live in olam hazeh and that is our reality. unless we rise way above like the Rambam and Reb Baruch ber and Chizkiyahu hamelch and Reb Shimon Bar Yochai (each of those have specific stories to this affect, not 4 now), we are stuck in this olam hazeh and the rules of olam hazeh govern us. in this world which we live in, hishtadlus is a MUST. without it we die and starve. because we haven't risen above. we need צהל and have only tremendous הכרת הטוב to them for putting their lives on the line; a truly scary prospect. and if not for them it would be us.
but then there is the actual real world, the world of שכר ועונש. in this world we say הכל בשביל ישראל. everything that happens is a message to better ourselves. when there is an עת צרה we daven and do teshuva because that is how things really work.
when it got really hot for אברהם אבינו i'm sure the climate analysts were making cheshbonos why it was so hot. when vinegar went up in price for rav huna (brachos 5b) to sell it at the cost of wine not to lose after doing teshuva for what caused it to turn sour in the first place, i'm sure all the data econ dudes were explaining it all acc. to teva. but we say בשביל ישראל. you know why it was hot? so avraham der tatte shouldn't have guests. you know why the market completely changed and vinegar shot up? the real reason is because of rav huna. you know why efron became the leader? i'm sure there were natural causes and politics and all the pundits were saying how this idiot should reallly not be president an it happened because of the backlash to this ideology or whatever. but the Gemara tells us the real reason why: בשביל ישראל שנקראו ראשית, so avraham should deal with someone chashuv. this is our view of all of history. why hitler came to power, why trump was elected, why oil prces go up, why trgedies happen, why this guy wins a lottery, why the Jews got expelled from [pick your country], why this natural disaster happened, why this natural course of events happened.
the teva is the tool Hashem uses in this world to enact and carry out His will, acc. to שכר ועונש. so when a Yid sees an עת צרה, the spiritual behind the scenes rectifications are the real ones that will save everyone. but like the purim story, there will be a masterful cover up of natural events, like the IDF and IAF and America backing Israel and on and on, which will help us win בעה"ית, but those are the natural fronts. the real deal is our coming closer to him. learning better davening better.
this is not rational, but this is basic Judaism from all corners.
all that said, we need the hishtalus, and we thank the courageous soldiers to no end for their valiant efforts. and we pray to God that our teshuva is sincere because their lives are the ones we are protecting with our learning. and as i said, we must realize that their lives and the direction of this war is in the hands of klal yisroel and its teshuva, and the more we internalize that, the more serious our avoda becomes and the more effort we better put in. because it is up to the bnei torah to change the course of the events. and if soldier R'l don't do so well, it's a sign that we're not doing so well.
hishtadlus is not a charade. it's the world we live in. but neither is the 'real' world of בראשית ברא אלהים, בשביל ישראל שנקראו ראשית
Do you really not see the myopic narcissism of claiming that victory in this war depends on Bnei Torah shteiging harder?
can we rephrase: i'm claiming that the victory of the war depends on national teshuva. the way national teshuva works is that we all come together as a nation and are mechazek our avodas hashem. just like in the army, every soldier does his part and collectively they make a strong team, so to here, everyone does his part and battles his ground, but since we are together it turns into an army of teshuva.
do you find that narcissistic?
No, not just 'bnei Torah', you too.
If you stopped your shtussim and havalim, and sat down in front of a Gemara and really tried to understand what was taught, you would also affect the victory of this war.
Nobody has a monopoly on Torah. All you have to do is believe in it, and your Torah is included.
What you are calling myopic narcissim is in fact basic Judaism. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
But hear it from somebody who is actually serving https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-frontlines
very nice presentation, bravo!
quote from Slifkin
"How on earth are you so sure that charedim are doing a better job of keeping mitzvos than non-charedim? There's reason to believe that aveiros such as theft and child abuse are much more widespread in charedi society."
Is this not blatant loshon harah?
Slifkin reminds me of what just happened with Trump- he made an international struggle of pain and sadness centred around his narcissistic attitude towards Bibi.
It's an eyeopener how people can be so fixated on their own egos to make situations of such pain into a self-promotion of sorts, and literally try to make divisions in a united- mourning Israel to forward their own self-interests and narcissistic atitudes.
Trump was upset that Bibi congratulated Biden...And Slifkin....
- maybe just stop trying to promote rifts to promote your own complexes.
It's an explicit Chazal that if you raise children without the ability to earn a living, they are likely to resort to theft.
It's explicitly discussed in charedi society that stealing from the state may not be a halachic problem.
It's very clear to everyone who works with abuse that in a community where it is socially unacceptable to report people to the police, abuse is more prevalent.
These are not chiddushim.
And don't accuse me of making divisions in a united Israel. When one entire sector of the population exempts itself from military service, there is no united Israel.
Your confusion is fully understandable.
If stealing from the State of Israel is Halachically acceptable, it is not included in Chazal's exhortation to prevent your child from resorting to theft. Because it is not theft. (I didn't take this position, I am merely pointing out the logical fallacy in what you write)
I would also love to hear how many people 'who works with abuse' you have spoken to about this issue. I suggest the number is the answer to 'what is 84 times zero'. You spoke to nobody, you made it up. You took a ride on the abuse issue, because why not? It helps your hatefest, and that's all this is about.
I spent 10 years as a court appointed atty. to defend parents who are accused of neglect and abuse of their children and another 15 years defending these parents as a private atty..The key is reporting ,which can also be anonymous,which prompts
Social Service investigation.Also witnesses testifying against parents.This is not a criminal court. A finding of guilty gives the court the legal authority to protect children by temporarily placing them with relatives.It also gives the in Court the authority to force the accused parents to attend rehabilitation programs and provides other services needed to help stabilize and rehabilitate the home. This is not a criminal conviction. It is dealt with behind closed doors of the Family Court and not open to the public.The rules of evidence are not as strict as in the Criminal Court.The Court is there to help.The goal is to reunite the children with their parents when it is safe,sometimes with limited supervision. Cooperation by the community members is essential,including the testimony of witnesses is vital.
I hope people reading this blog will be convinced to help these children.
I was an Atty. Practicing in NYC.
Uh, I know plenty of people who work with abuse, and they all tell me that there is *not* more abuse in the chareidi community. Of course, when somebody hates chareidim and surrounds himself with like minded people, he will hear what he wants to hear, regardless of the facts (see this https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-11-28/ty-article/.premium/a-third-of-israeli-female-soldiers-were-sexually-harassed-in-2021-report-says/00000184-bee1-d136-affd-fff5ac590000).
And the "explicity discussed that stealing from the state may not be a halachic problem" is in Torah journals just like millions of other theoretical questions (would you rather they CENSOR it?), just like how in the DL community, it is explicitly discussed that it may be ok to take a Palestinian יפת תואר, there are no normal poskim who allow it.
In my experience as an Atty
involved in neglect and abuse matters I didn't find more neglect and abuse by Chareidim . But when I made Aliya to Israel in 1993 the subject was still under tight wraps in the Charedi community.
There is not more abuse, possibly less, in the charedei community.
The point is how it is dealt with when it is discovered. The charedi community is useless at dealing with it, especially when the perpertrator is in a position of authority.
It like it's even really not a problem halachically to not pay taxes. Although there often is chilul Hashem and then it's assur. But yah it's like a real thing. Especially in Israel where you have the Ran....
About the abuse thing it may not be that there are more cases but conservatives generally are worse about dealing with these issues. But still....
They may deal with it worse when it happens but more promiscuous societies have way more opportunity for abuse https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-11-28/ty-article/.premium/a-third-of-israeli-female-soldiers-were-sexually-harassed-in-2021-report-says/00000184-bee1-d136-affd-fff5ac590000
Great whataboutism there. You forget that chareidim pride themselves on being holier than the rest. A more authentic form of genuine Judaism than the rest.
So the classic yeshivish 'goyim do it too' type respnses are nonsense.
Uh...https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/we-must-do-more/comment/41772349
100% more religious societies are more family and community oriented
So I learnt in school, correct me if I'm making a mistake, but lashon harah is even when its true!?
p.s not that I agree any of this is true)
It's important to point out, that for the wars in Tanach, like by Gidon specifically, the tzadikim were the ones who were chosen to fight. It wasn't an attitude the talmidei chachamim should learn and the rest should fight. Davka the opposite, the men who have the most zechusim should be the ones to fight for us.
But you couldn't have picked a better example of minimization of hishtadlus than that
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהוָה֙ אֶל־גִּדְע֔וֹן רַ֗ב הָעָם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר אִתָּ֔ךְ מִתִּתִּ֥י אֶת־מִדְיָ֖ן בְּיָדָ֑ם פֶּן־יִתְפָּאֵ֨ר עָלַ֤י יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר יָדִ֖י הוֹשִׁ֥יעָה לִּֽי׃
....
וַיֹּ֨אמֶר יְהוָ֜ה אֶל־גִּדְע֗וֹן בִּשְׁלֹשׁ֩ מֵא֨וֹת הָאִ֤ישׁ הַֽמֲלַקְקִים֙ אוֹשִׁ֣יעַ אֶתְכֶ֔ם וְנָתַתִּ֥י אֶת־מִדְיָ֖ן בְּיָדֶ֑ךָ וְכָל־הָעָ֔ם יֵלְכ֖וּ אִ֥ישׁ לִמְקֹמֽוֹ׃
The lesson there is, when you want to *really* minimize the hishtadlus, you just take the biggest tzadikim and send everybody else home. Is that what you recommend in this case?
No . It doesn't say the tzadikim. G-d wanted to reveal his power.
Huh? It does say the tzadikim.
Indeed important, but has no bearing on R Dessler.
My apologies Natan.
Let's try to keep unified.
🕊
we all appreciate it (this is what makes it not narcissistic...)
these are some of the kidnapped kids. https://photo.24liveblog.com/3422333916194946648/20231012174432_053884.jpg
let's remember them before fighting with each other
And finally
2. 1 Samuel 17:47 (NIV):
"All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give all of you into our hands."
You will note from all those quotes that they had an active fighting army. So I am not sure what you are trying to show or what your point is.
Nobody is disputing that ultimately success comes from Hashem. The question is over practical matters.
Proverbs 21:31 (NIV):
"The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but victory rests with the LORD."
Psalm 44:6-7 (NIV):
"I put no trust in my bow, my sword does not bring me victory; but you give us victory over our enemies, you put our adversaries to shame."
So,that means you don't have. to do the best you can to fight?
Psalm 33:16-17 (NIV):
"No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. A horse is a vain hope for deliverance; despite all its great strength it cannot save."
R Moshe Feinstein contrasts the early Milchomos in Jewish history, such as in Chumash, where their level of Bitochon was so great they could do full military tactics and still remember it's not Kochi VeOtzem Yodi. But as time progressed and our level of Bitochon drops, we have to rely on Nissim (such as the Yom Kippur War) and abandon our trust in full military tactics, because the risk of our venerating Kochi VeOtzem Yodi is so great. I guess he means we still do the tactics and Hishtadlus, but ultimately, be cognisant that it's really Hashem who's the Baal Milchomos
The story of the 4 Kings. The one with the highest level of bitachon was Dovid, who was the one that put forth the most hishtadlus, but attributed his success in battle to Hashem. The least bitachon was Chizkiyahu who didn't even sing Shira, but went to sleep. Chizkiyahu worried that singing Shira would have led him to arrogance, kochi v'etzam yodi (or koli in his case) as it were. Or so it was explained to me.
RY Levovitz & RS Schwab say the same basing on a Medrash contrasting David Hamelech and another 3 kings (from his family, their names escape me right now). That as time went on and there was Yeridas Hadoros, they did less Hishtadlus during their wars, to realize the Yad Hashem. Whereas earlier they did more and were still able to see the Yad Hashem; David doing the most Hishtadus.
Right. That's why the charedi community, which has the most bitachon, does the most hishtadlus for elections.
They do hishtadlus because we live in this world, the world of hishtadlus. The army they have others but elections only they stand for themselves so they step up their game.
"The army they have others".
Yeah, they have others dying for them, great hishtadlus.
And you have shown the true colors. It's nothing to do with 'torah protects' (the same torah could protect chareidi political interests too, surely?). It's simply that others are prepared to die, so chareidim don't need to.
I have been saying this all along. Finally you have conceded.
our position is nuanced: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-soldiers-are-really-doing-stuff-82e/comment/41742707
None of the 'nuance' explains the contradiction in chareidland between the army and every thing where hishtadlus is required.
No anti-vax nutcase said 'benei torah' should not wisk the COVID vaccine because torah protects. Nobody tells a childless couple (lo oleinu) that the husband should learn more because torah heals and the zchus of torah will sort them out. On the contrary, when it comes to medical matters, financial matteres chareidim run around and seek all sorts of advice etc.
Nobody tells the benei torah to stay learning and the zechus of torah will help them get 'gimmel' votes. Why are there all these chareidi demonstrations? Just learn torah and torah will protect you from everthing bad that could ever happen.
No, its because others are prepared to fight and die in the army for them, do chareidim don't need to go. Or because they cannot cope with the poor level of ruchniyos in the army. It's nothing to do with torah protects. That's just a soundbite. On the contrary, they depend extra guards when necessary outside kiryat seifer and beitar.
So, after being proven wrong from all over Torah, you 'resort' to snarkiness.
You wouldn’t know what real “Torah” is if it became animated and walked up and bit you on your ass….
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-soldiers-are-really-doing-stuff-82e/comment/41734149
I find it sad that something so elementary has to be spelled out to educated Torah Jews.
Of course, here we are again.
No primary sources, no actual knowledge of Rishonim, no clear Mar'eh Mekomos, just a sociological point made by some expert on goats' droppings, with a Dr. to his name.
As I always say, these posts belong on truth613.substack.com. Together with the anti-vaxxer rhetoric of those who refuse to study medicine.
If someone wants to know the sugya and understand the interplay between hishtadlus and success, learn the Rishonim, from the Chovas Halevavos to the Rambam. The Mefarshim on Chumash, including the Ohr Hachaim, as well as many other sources discuss this. Don't allow an am ha'aretz to dictate to you his stomach aches.
Yes, and none of those seforim deal with the main contradiction in Chareidiland.
When it comes to the army, torah protects blah blah blah.
When it comes to money, medical issues, political issues, it's never torah protects. Not a single anti-vaccer nutcase used 'torah protects' as a reason why 'benei torah' don't need to take the risks of the covid vaccine. Because, in practice, the real reason not becoming involved in the army is other people do it. Torah protects is a convenient soundbite.
Sure, in all of those cases, it's also Torah protects. That's why chareidim do less hishtadlus in terms of parnassa, and as we saw with covid, less hishtadlus in terms of health. These are things that Slifkin complains about incessantly. So I wonder why he "likes" this obviously false comment?
They don't do less hishtadlus in terms of parnossoh. Their 'hishtadlus' is simply running around milking everyone they can for money. Through fair means and dodgy means. Like with the army, using others do do their work.
A true parellel to the army with learning would be learning and doing nothing else but learning. Which is not the case. And yes, for those that can, when the money runs out they go and work. They do not rely solely on torah.
Look at cancer, infertility etc. Chareidim run around just like everyone else, looking for the best doctors etc never relying on "torah heals" and protects which chazal also say. Covid is a bad example because it was just ignorance, but in any event no anti vaccer ever used 'torah protects'. With COVID they did not use torah protects, the arguments were science is nonsense etc etc.
If they did the same hishtadlus, they would make as much money as everybody else. If they did the same hishtadlus, they would only learn for an hour a day or so, like most kovea itim ba'alei batim. If you think they are running around all day, that is another indication that you need your medication https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/we-must-do-more/comment/41772349
Your chiluk between covid and cancer is likewise nonsense. They are ignorant of Covid but all of the sudden big experts when it comes to cancer and fertility? No, with Covid, Torah was threatened by shutting schools and shuls, so they relied on the protection of Torah, like RCK said. Same as army service.
Bye bye.
They are not big experts in cancer and fertility. They run around sourcing the big experts with all sorts of communal organisations dedicated to this (nothing wrong with that). What they do NOT do is quote numerous ma'amorie chazal about how torah is marpeh and all that is needed is a bit more learning. Because unlike army sevice, nobody can take on the infertility and cancer for them. Nothing to do with 'torah protects' which is a convenient smokescreen.
Wow, a lot of sense you make now. They have no interest in experts when it comes to covid, but all of the sudden run for the experts when it comes to cancer and fertility! And you have never seen chareidim quoting numerous ma'amorie chazal about how torah is marpeh, right? What a sane and mentally-balanced person you are showing yourself to be. The person who really needs to run around sourcing the big experts is yourself, for your particular condition. See my comment with the link
As I've previously noted, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21331626 your kvetching isn't new, and neither are the responses.
http://slifkin-opinions.blogspot.com/2012/04/rav-dessler-and-nature.html
http://slifkinchallenge.blogspot.com/2012/09/rav-avraham-ben-harambams-anti-science.html
Noson wrote, "The Gemara (Makkot 10a) speaks of how the Torah being studied in Jerusalem enabled the nation to succeed in war. But this just means that that those who are unable to fight - the old, the young, the infirm, the unfit - and who are focused on learning and teaching Torah.
NOSON you falsely claim the Gemora refers to the "old, the young, the infirm, the unfit." It obviously refers to all who learn Torah L'shma, whether it is people who make "torasam umnasom" or a soldier on the field, that during a lull in battle takes out a sefer to learn.
א״ר יהושע בן לוי, מאי דכתיב: (תהלים קכ״ב) עומדות היו רגלינו בשעריך ירושלים? מי גרם לרגלינו שיעמדו במלחמה? שערי ירושלם שהיו עוסקים בתורה.
Here what else it says on that daf:
מאי דכתיב: (ירמיהו נ׳) חרב אל הבדים ונואלו? חרב על צוארי שונאיהם של ת״ח שיושבין ועוסקין בתורה בד בבדֹ
To be honest I am surprised at you for your diatribe of Rav Dessler. You were very close to the late great Rabbi Aryeh Carmell, who was a talmid muvhak of Rav Dessler and worked on Michtav M'eliyahu. Did he understand his rebbe's Torah so disparagingly as you did?
Who is this NOSSON you speak of…?
Rabbi Natan Slifkin is the originator of this Blog….
If you don't already know, you don't have to know.