If they don't believe the army is protecting them then why would they need to have hakarat hatov in the first place
But my bigger question is we talk so much in Yiddishkeit about the importance of having hakarat hatov for everyone and about how you're supposed to say thank you to everyone even for the smallest thing they do for you. Why is this different? Are they also afraid that if they express gratitude to a doctor that their child might want to become a doctor?
If the gratitude expected was the same as that due to a doctor, that would be fine.
It is when the demand is for some kind of superlative gratitude, which is what is really happening here, that people become wary.
Those who mark Yom Hazikaron do so out of a sense of patriotism and loyalty to a country and state, which is why these kinds of ceremonies exist. Those who have been taught that the state is not ours, not what we have been praying for, and not a central part of our identity, keep away from these ceremonies. The 'haqarat hatov' claim is a fig leaf, a method of 'judaizing' something secular, similar to 'rabshayeberrebmoishe' fress parties.
Yes, it's not haqarat hatov. They use Jewish concepts, but they mean something else. Standing still during the siren's call is nothing to do with הכרת הטוב, and those who do so are not displaying any.
There is a rule of thumb that I have learned in my life. When someone tries to dictate the terms of your הכרת הטוב, you should know that something else is at play.
"There is a rule of thumb that I have learned in my life".
Or it could be paranoia.
" When someone tries to dictate "
Who is this someone? Who is this person who keeps you up at night worrying that they will compel you to stand and shut up for a total of three minutes a year? And who is this person who stays up at night worrying whether you're going to stand and shut up for those same three minutes?
No one is forcing you to do anything. No is particularly perturbed when you don't. You're just paranoid. And you're not the center of attention of these people who want a few moments of silence from everyone.
if you publicly expressed hakarat hatov in a different way that would go along way. but no hakarat tov is ever expressed to the state of the army. The is funeral for a lone solder in Yerushalayim today. word has gotten out that he has no relatives other than his parents who came in from Argentina for the funeral and few friends and that people should come out to participate. I am sure htere wil be prenty of people. But few if any charedim and certaibly these calls have nto gone out i the charedi community. I think this is definately a jewish and halakhic way of showig hakaras htov to someoen who gave his life defending you. Whether or not you think they are "yours" or part of your identity, if you live in Israel, you owe your existence in this country to the State, the Army, and the vast hard work, sacrifce and suffering of countless individuals in the past and the present. sacrifce that the Charedi community as whole refuse to particpate in any sigifcant degree. HAkaras hatov it thebasis of Judaism as many rishonim wrote. FOr GOd's dakes Moshe had hakaras hatov for sand and a river! Give complete lack of hakars ha tov coming fromthe chareidi community it is they who are open to the accusation of fillig JEwish terms with none jewish cotent and behavior, not the Religious Zionists. But at least mostr chareidim dont try to publically defend their lack of public hakaras hatov. there can be no reater chillul hashem and uJEwish act than that.
They absolutely believe the army protects, many of my friends in miluim were guarding charedim ishuvim. Not only this, some of the people living in these places have enrolled in the shlav bet, which is an army program for older men who didn't serve (up to 50), where they get trained in the use of assault rifles and so on (the equivalent of רובאי 03).
What you say so badly needs to be said..and you say this eloquently. Maybe you should try and put this piece also into Hebrew..as it is those who have been brought up here and essentially use Hebrew, who need to read this.
I agree, buit it isnt enough. We desperately desperately need more soldiers. now, not eventually. The situatio is very severe, trust my I have a son in Gaza, who should have goen back to yeshiva months ago, he is stuck there, exausted, because there is no one to relieve him. SO no, untill enough charedim start to ageee to be drafted that we can survive, it will not be enough
The post here was about chareidim taking place in Yom Hazikaron ceremonies, and my comment was about that as well. Chareidim serving in the military is another issue, which is the subject of about 90% of the posts on this blog.
“And when 50,000 American charedi Jews held a rally in Manhattan against drafting yeshiva students,…….. they didn’t and would never express hakarat hatov to the IDF. Their need to distance themselves from anything that might possibly threaten their charedi identity ends up corrupting their moral character.”
No offense, but I wonder at the attitude of learning to elevate the soul of someone whose soul is already far elevated above that of the person doing the learning. I mean this honestly: Do people learn for the merit of Holocaust victims? Do they learn for the merit of *gedolim* who were Holocaust victims?
"In general, there is a risk with criticizing charedi lack of concern, respect and gratitude for the IDF - it might imply that if charedim do show appreciation for the IDF, then it’s fine (or not so bad) if they don’t actually serve in the IDF."
In general, there's a risk in replying to these sorts of question-begging statements, because it might imply that charedim are obligated to cater to your prescriptions about how they ought to behave.
the one from Rambam hilchos taanis cited by Natan at the end of his post. in either event allof chariedism is based on the idea that they alone represent the ture sheiris hapleita of Am Yisrael amd must sperate themselves from the rest of the JEwish tzibbur lest they be contaminated. charedim say such thingn explictly all the time. In Israel that has been taken to an unbleivably extreme degree, even as they have made themselves entirely dependant on the rest of zibbur.
Due to the influence of texts like the Talmud, Midrashim, Kabbalah, and Chassidism, traditional Judaism has evolved into something resembling quasi-Christianity. This transformation introduces practices like the use of amulets, a reliance on blind faith in past and present religious figures, and an infusion of mysticism that sometimes supplants rational thought. Instead of focusing on its core objective of understanding and fulfilling commandments, Torah study is often viewed as a mystical tool for manipulating and protecting the world. Unfortunately, it seems likely that future developments will only exacerbate this trend.
It's almost as though attempting to forcibly conscript a community into joining an institution they've historically viewed as hostile to their way of life isn't conducive to eliciting cries of gratitude from the would-be conscriptees. Who could've seen *that* coming?
There was during the COVID pandemic when the NY Charedim insisted on continuing to hold mass spreading events to infect each other with a deadly virus in spite of the government lockdowns.
the culture war is one created by the charedim. there is no war against them. the sit i the government and have vast politcal power. Most Israelis are religious or traidtional and also oppose the radical secualrisim of the ever dwindling old secular Tel Aviv elite. all we are asking is that chareidim contribute to secutiry of the country. Charedim have always defied themselves by culture wars against "internal amaleks" makilim, Reform, Zionists, Conservative, MO, OO- ther always needs to be an enemy. Charedim have as muchu or more freedom to live their lives in Israel than any where else in the world and get far far more faniacial support. This happened because in fact, Ben Gurion prioritized getting along with the charedim- thats why he went to the chazon Ish- he just want to know how the could live together in one State, the Chazon Ish famously rebuffed him. both Shimon Perese and especially menachem Begin thought it was very important that charedi communities thrive in Israel. but again no hakaras hatov- just manufactured culture wars.
And these Jews never visit Israel (excuse me, "Eretz Yisroel" for them), and would be comfortable going to the Kotel / Kever Rachel / Maarat Hamachpela without army protection? and have no intention of ever considering moving to Israel? Even if the situation in the US gets really bad?
When you thanked the SOI for whatever, did you remember to thank Walmart?
Why, did you never buy anything in Walmart? Did you not benefit from their lowering of prices all over? Where is your Haqarat hatov? How can you thank the IDF and not Walmart?
Walmart (though I live here in Israel, so lets say Rami Levy) is engaging in a business transaction with me.. I give them money, they give me bananas. The employees are certainly not risking their lives for me (though of course I *always* thank the cashier).
Two of my sons are back in miluim in the north risking their lives for you...whether you appreciate it or not, as it is the right thing to do.
Yom Yazikaron is going to be very hard for many of us here. Please pretend to have a little feeling for your fellow Jews
Actually, Rami Levy does deserve thanks for being a pioneer in supemarkets that don't gouge the consumer.
That being the case, ZE's comparing the praises of crass consumerism with the IDF- AND conflating the State with the מלאכים (to quote Rav Aryeh Levin) of the IDF is morally repugnant.
I live in America. So stop trying to force your ideology down my throat, or the throats of the 50,000 people who gathered that time in Manhattan. Your two sons are not risking their lives for me, I have no benefit from it. In fact, they benefit more from my two sons learning in Yeshiva in the US than I have from them.
This has nothing to do with feeling or haqarat hatov. Those are just ways of dressing up some good old-fashioned forcing opinions onto people.
So you never visit israel you never pray for it and you don’t intend to obey HaShem to make it the center of your spiritual and physical existence….just like the meraglim. What happened to them by the way??? Oh yeah a plague.
Each individual soldier, true, l'shitoseich you derive no value from him/her.
But taken as a whole, you derive a lot of benefit from the IDF. Without Israel, Jews in chu'l would be a lot weaker. Bullies pick on vulnerable people. The fact that we could go and live in EY whenver we like makes klal yisroel marginally less vulnerable, which decreases the antisemitism we could be exposed to.
If ch'v Israel would cease to exist, I can assure you, your position in America would be a lot less stable.
>>Those are just ways of dressing up some good old-fashioned forcing opinions onto people.<<
Why would you feel "forced" about anything. You don't need anyone's permission to form your own opinion. Just laugh it off if you really think that the critique is not well founded.
I they, and you, live and America and are so disconnected to from the rest of עם ישראל, why did they bother to demonstrate against the Israeli draft? And say "שפוך חמתך על הגוים אשר לא ידעוך" about Naftali Bennet? And call the Israeli government עמלק?
Obviously, there is a connection - a deep one.
Or do they feel this relationship only to Charedi Israelis and consider the rest foreigners?
We are ערבים for Klal Yisroel, and are strongly pained by a draft law that will lower Klal Yisroel's ruchniyus level. The slogans people use are not worth discussing.
There is a connection, but how does that translate into an obligation to celebrate or respect an entity (not individuals) that have nothing to do with our religion or values? Stand still for the siren, I will deal with my obligations in my way.
The very idea that someone who does not worship in your artificial way automatically does not worship is just another way of forcing opinions down other people's throats, otherwise known as כפיה חילונית.
It's not about you and you're narrow neighborhood. It's about all Jews in peril, where ever they may be.
It's that attitude that's missing. Whether from those who feel no gratitude because they live in the USA. Or those who declared the מלחמת מצוה over once they were sitting in clover. Or Satmar ideology which implicitly ignored the Jews still suffering in the Soviet sphere when the State was founded.
You don't want to raise kids to be warlike. You want to raise kids for peace. Many cultures don't put soldiers as examples for children for this reason.
I've always wondered if zechus is fungible. In school I used to insist that my learning was staying in my zechus because I needed it and presumably they'd need my permission to take it.
Which is why we don't raise them to admire soldiers but to admire Torah. We also don't raise them to aspire to be policemen or firemen or doctors or grave diggers. These are all necessary professions and admirable but not a wise idea to present to the masses as the ideal.
Im sorry but if you live in America its a totally different story here. Of course we want our kids to be doctors, firefighters, policemen, soldiers, etc. Btw the army is not a full time job here unlike the other jobs you mentioned. They continue on to yeshiva and college and only get called for reserves.
I am a nurse at Shalva, a center for special needs children of all ages and their families. We have many young men who volunteer here during a שנת שרות, so we also see many of them go into active IDF service after that. When these soldiers get a leave of a few days, they come back to Shalva to work with the kids and to see their friends. Get that? Fighters from active combat units in Gaza are spending their time away from the front wiping noses of handicapped children, taking them to the gymboree, and helping them change into and out of swimsuits for the therapeutic pool. Not hitting the bars or even just going home to sleep, not hanging out on the midrachov, but doing the most humble kinds of tasks with the most humble and vulnerable of עם ישראל. Not for money or for glory. They show up in uniform, rifles in tow, because that's the kind of warriors the Israeli religious Zionist youth produces.
Totally off-topic (apologies) but that's how my daughter met her husband! She was a Bat Sherut at Shalva, he was in Hesder and occasionally came to volunteer. They're on the "wall".
That's a nice little fantasy. As the old expression goes, "You may not be interested in war, but war is very interested in you." Israelis find that out, time and again.
My son has a plaque at the entrance of his school with about forty names on it. (That list has gotten somewhat longer since Shemini Atzeret.) And this is very, very common throughout Israel. Are they supposed to...ignore them?
Traditionally? The Torah assumes that every single Jew will serve in the military, as indeed did every single world civilization until only a few decades ago. In many countries it's still the norm.
I'm not saying to be a peace in. But jews traditionally don't raise children to fight wars. We want to learn Torah and do mitzvod and fighting is a sad necessity.
Jews have been serving in the military and occasionally fighting in wars ever since the Christians (and later, the Muslims) emancipated us. Jews have served in every US war since the French and Indian War. Jews served on both sides in World War I -- one future Prime Minister of Israel, Moshe Sharrett, served in the Ottoman Army. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were in the Polish Army in 1939, tens of thousands in the French Army in 1940, and hundreds of thousands more served in the US, Soviet, British, and Canadian militaries during that war.
You don't want to raise kids to be warlike. You want to raise kids for peace. Many cultures don't put soldiers as examples for children for this reason.
This is not יהדות, it's pacifism which is an idolatrous ideology. It's a הלכה that in war, one has to be warlike.
"כשהיה יושב ועוסק בתורה - היה מעדן עצמו כתולעת, ובשעה שיוצא למלחמה - היה מקשה עצמו כעץ".
That is a Christian attitude, not a Jewish attitude. We have a concept of a milchemet mitzvah; there are many "peace churches" who are opposed to all war no matter what the circumstances.
There's the concept of milchemes mitzva and its obvious implications that most of the time is milchemes rishus. And lots of Navi about in the future no more war
We are obviously not fighting a milchemet reshut now, as the borders of modern Israel are still smaller than those described in the Torah. And we're not living in the future, obviously.
Agreed, just one question:
If they don't believe the army is protecting them then why would they need to have hakarat hatov in the first place
But my bigger question is we talk so much in Yiddishkeit about the importance of having hakarat hatov for everyone and about how you're supposed to say thank you to everyone even for the smallest thing they do for you. Why is this different? Are they also afraid that if they express gratitude to a doctor that their child might want to become a doctor?
If the gratitude expected was the same as that due to a doctor, that would be fine.
It is when the demand is for some kind of superlative gratitude, which is what is really happening here, that people become wary.
Those who mark Yom Hazikaron do so out of a sense of patriotism and loyalty to a country and state, which is why these kinds of ceremonies exist. Those who have been taught that the state is not ours, not what we have been praying for, and not a central part of our identity, keep away from these ceremonies. The 'haqarat hatov' claim is a fig leaf, a method of 'judaizing' something secular, similar to 'rabshayeberrebmoishe' fress parties.
Yes, we should have more gratitude to soldiers than to doctors. This is something perfectly obvious to most people.
" Those who have been taught that the state is not ours..."
It's not only about the State...
Your focus on the State instead of the people shows you to be indifferent to the plight of your people.
" The 'haqarat hatov' claim is a fig leaf"
So you don't think it's הכרת הטוב? At all?
Yes, it's not haqarat hatov. They use Jewish concepts, but they mean something else. Standing still during the siren's call is nothing to do with הכרת הטוב, and those who do so are not displaying any.
There is a rule of thumb that I have learned in my life. When someone tries to dictate the terms of your הכרת הטוב, you should know that something else is at play.
"There is a rule of thumb that I have learned in my life".
Or it could be paranoia.
" When someone tries to dictate "
Who is this someone? Who is this person who keeps you up at night worrying that they will compel you to stand and shut up for a total of three minutes a year? And who is this person who stays up at night worrying whether you're going to stand and shut up for those same three minutes?
No one is forcing you to do anything. No is particularly perturbed when you don't. You're just paranoid. And you're not the center of attention of these people who want a few moments of silence from everyone.
"something else is at play. "
What would that be?
if you publicly expressed hakarat hatov in a different way that would go along way. but no hakarat tov is ever expressed to the state of the army. The is funeral for a lone solder in Yerushalayim today. word has gotten out that he has no relatives other than his parents who came in from Argentina for the funeral and few friends and that people should come out to participate. I am sure htere wil be prenty of people. But few if any charedim and certaibly these calls have nto gone out i the charedi community. I think this is definately a jewish and halakhic way of showig hakaras htov to someoen who gave his life defending you. Whether or not you think they are "yours" or part of your identity, if you live in Israel, you owe your existence in this country to the State, the Army, and the vast hard work, sacrifce and suffering of countless individuals in the past and the present. sacrifce that the Charedi community as whole refuse to particpate in any sigifcant degree. HAkaras hatov it thebasis of Judaism as many rishonim wrote. FOr GOd's dakes Moshe had hakaras hatov for sand and a river! Give complete lack of hakars ha tov coming fromthe chareidi community it is they who are open to the accusation of fillig JEwish terms with none jewish cotent and behavior, not the Religious Zionists. But at least mostr chareidim dont try to publically defend their lack of public hakaras hatov. there can be no reater chillul hashem and uJEwish act than that.
Anti-Semites don't usually shoot at Jewish doctors.
Is it superlative?
They absolutely believe the army protects, many of my friends in miluim were guarding charedim ishuvim. Not only this, some of the people living in these places have enrolled in the shlav bet, which is an army program for older men who didn't serve (up to 50), where they get trained in the use of assault rifles and so on (the equivalent of רובאי 03).
Rav Natan
What you say so badly needs to be said..and you say this eloquently. Maybe you should try and put this piece also into Hebrew..as it is those who have been brought up here and essentially use Hebrew, who need to read this.
There is a chareidi Yom Hazikaron event tonight in the Ulam Sport on Sorek at 10 p.m.
Not enough
Better: כל הכבוד, כן ירבו
That is a healthy attitude to have in life. Insread of being happy with progress, complain that it is not enough.
I agree, buit it isnt enough. We desperately desperately need more soldiers. now, not eventually. The situatio is very severe, trust my I have a son in Gaza, who should have goen back to yeshiva months ago, he is stuck there, exausted, because there is no one to relieve him. SO no, untill enough charedim start to ageee to be drafted that we can survive, it will not be enough
The post here was about chareidim taking place in Yom Hazikaron ceremonies, and my comment was about that as well. Chareidim serving in the military is another issue, which is the subject of about 90% of the posts on this blog.
“And when 50,000 American charedi Jews held a rally in Manhattan against drafting yeshiva students,…….. they didn’t and would never express hakarat hatov to the IDF. Their need to distance themselves from anything that might possibly threaten their charedi identity ends up corrupting their moral character.”
….what moral character…????
American Jews should keep out of Israeli politics. If we really care that much about an Israeli political issue we should make aliyah.
lol
No offense, but I wonder at the attitude of learning to elevate the soul of someone whose soul is already far elevated above that of the person doing the learning. I mean this honestly: Do people learn for the merit of Holocaust victims? Do they learn for the merit of *gedolim* who were Holocaust victims?
Even an ignorant son is to say Kaddish for his learnt father and ideally do all sorts of things לעילוי נשמת
Of course the attitude of Charedim vis-à-vis the IDF has nothing to do with halacha....
Leave aside whether "bouncing the soul up" is a real thing, of course we all need a bounce. But sometimes the gap is so large, it's hard to imagine.
כִּי לְכֶלֶב חַי הוּא טוֹב מִן הָאַרְיֵה הַמֵּת
"In general, there is a risk with criticizing charedi lack of concern, respect and gratitude for the IDF - it might imply that if charedim do show appreciation for the IDF, then it’s fine (or not so bad) if they don’t actually serve in the IDF."
In general, there's a risk in replying to these sorts of question-begging statements, because it might imply that charedim are obligated to cater to your prescriptions about how they ought to behave.
..."הַפּוֹרֵשׁ מִדַּרְכֵי צִבּוּר"
You really need to decide whether charedim constitute a tzibbur in their own right https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/idf-exemptions-the-crucial-distinction which obligates them to serve or are being poresh from the tzibbur by not serving. It can't be both.
What has poresh min hatzibur have to do with hakoras hatov? You have hakoras hatov to people not from your tzibbur, no?
He was responding
this is true in principle, but in practice they are itimately interconneded.
"or are being poresh from the tzibbur by not serving."
Which definition of הַפּוֹרֵשׁ מִדַּרְכֵי צִבּוּר are you using?
the one from Rambam hilchos taanis cited by Natan at the end of his post. in either event allof chariedism is based on the idea that they alone represent the ture sheiris hapleita of Am Yisrael amd must sperate themselves from the rest of the JEwish tzibbur lest they be contaminated. charedim say such thingn explictly all the time. In Israel that has been taken to an unbleivably extreme degree, even as they have made themselves entirely dependant on the rest of zibbur.
I reject the premise of the question.
Great piece
Due to the influence of texts like the Talmud, Midrashim, Kabbalah, and Chassidism, traditional Judaism has evolved into something resembling quasi-Christianity. This transformation introduces practices like the use of amulets, a reliance on blind faith in past and present religious figures, and an infusion of mysticism that sometimes supplants rational thought. Instead of focusing on its core objective of understanding and fulfilling commandments, Torah study is often viewed as a mystical tool for manipulating and protecting the world. Unfortunately, it seems likely that future developments will only exacerbate this trend.
The NYPD helped the Jews in Manhattan. The IDF did not.
That was simple. How could someone even miss that?
1. It was a rally where they talked about the IDF. They had plenty of insults to say about the IDF. What about hakaras hatov?
2. The IDF helps the Jews in Israel. When do charedim express hakaras hatov, like they did for the NYPD in Manhattan?
There's no culture war between the NYPD and the Charedim
It's almost as though attempting to forcibly conscript a community into joining an institution they've historically viewed as hostile to their way of life isn't conducive to eliciting cries of gratitude from the would-be conscriptees. Who could've seen *that* coming?
There was during the COVID pandemic when the NY Charedim insisted on continuing to hold mass spreading events to infect each other with a deadly virus in spite of the government lockdowns.
the culture war is one created by the charedim. there is no war against them. the sit i the government and have vast politcal power. Most Israelis are religious or traidtional and also oppose the radical secualrisim of the ever dwindling old secular Tel Aviv elite. all we are asking is that chareidim contribute to secutiry of the country. Charedim have always defied themselves by culture wars against "internal amaleks" makilim, Reform, Zionists, Conservative, MO, OO- ther always needs to be an enemy. Charedim have as muchu or more freedom to live their lives in Israel than any where else in the world and get far far more faniacial support. This happened because in fact, Ben Gurion prioritized getting along with the charedim- thats why he went to the chazon Ish- he just want to know how the could live together in one State, the Chazon Ish famously rebuffed him. both Shimon Perese and especially menachem Begin thought it was very important that charedi communities thrive in Israel. but again no hakaras hatov- just manufactured culture wars.
So you have reached the גברא אגברא קא רמית.
Nice.
"The IDF didn't help Jews in Manhattan?"
And these Jews never visit Israel (excuse me, "Eretz Yisroel" for them), and would be comfortable going to the Kotel / Kever Rachel / Maarat Hamachpela without army protection? and have no intention of ever considering moving to Israel? Even if the situation in the US gets really bad?
When you thanked the SOI for whatever, did you remember to thank Walmart?
Why, did you never buy anything in Walmart? Did you not benefit from their lowering of prices all over? Where is your Haqarat hatov? How can you thank the IDF and not Walmart?
What a bunch of disgusting ingrates!
Walmart (though I live here in Israel, so lets say Rami Levy) is engaging in a business transaction with me.. I give them money, they give me bananas. The employees are certainly not risking their lives for me (though of course I *always* thank the cashier).
Two of my sons are back in miluim in the north risking their lives for you...whether you appreciate it or not, as it is the right thing to do.
Yom Yazikaron is going to be very hard for many of us here. Please pretend to have a little feeling for your fellow Jews
Actually, Rami Levy does deserve thanks for being a pioneer in supemarkets that don't gouge the consumer.
That being the case, ZE's comparing the praises of crass consumerism with the IDF- AND conflating the State with the מלאכים (to quote Rav Aryeh Levin) of the IDF is morally repugnant.
I live in America. So stop trying to force your ideology down my throat, or the throats of the 50,000 people who gathered that time in Manhattan. Your two sons are not risking their lives for me, I have no benefit from it. In fact, they benefit more from my two sons learning in Yeshiva in the US than I have from them.
This has nothing to do with feeling or haqarat hatov. Those are just ways of dressing up some good old-fashioned forcing opinions onto people.
If you have no benefit from anything happening in Israel, nor stake in its existence, why are you bothering to post here?
They are risking their lives for your brothers and sisters. Of course you owe them!
So you never visit israel you never pray for it and you don’t intend to obey HaShem to make it the center of your spiritual and physical existence….just like the meraglim. What happened to them by the way??? Oh yeah a plague.
Oh, I will be going to Eretz Yisroel.
When מלכות בית דוד is returned, the democratic State is dismantled, and it is run according to the Torah.
Each individual soldier, true, l'shitoseich you derive no value from him/her.
But taken as a whole, you derive a lot of benefit from the IDF. Without Israel, Jews in chu'l would be a lot weaker. Bullies pick on vulnerable people. The fact that we could go and live in EY whenver we like makes klal yisroel marginally less vulnerable, which decreases the antisemitism we could be exposed to.
If ch'v Israel would cease to exist, I can assure you, your position in America would be a lot less stable.
>>Those are just ways of dressing up some good old-fashioned forcing opinions onto people.<<
Why would you feel "forced" about anything. You don't need anyone's permission to form your own opinion. Just laugh it off if you really think that the critique is not well founded.
I they, and you, live and America and are so disconnected to from the rest of עם ישראל, why did they bother to demonstrate against the Israeli draft? And say "שפוך חמתך על הגוים אשר לא ידעוך" about Naftali Bennet? And call the Israeli government עמלק?
Obviously, there is a connection - a deep one.
Or do they feel this relationship only to Charedi Israelis and consider the rest foreigners?
Who said anything about 'disconnected'?
We are ערבים for Klal Yisroel, and are strongly pained by a draft law that will lower Klal Yisroel's ruchniyus level. The slogans people use are not worth discussing.
There is a connection, but how does that translate into an obligation to celebrate or respect an entity (not individuals) that have nothing to do with our religion or values? Stand still for the siren, I will deal with my obligations in my way.
The very idea that someone who does not worship in your artificial way automatically does not worship is just another way of forcing opinions down other people's throats, otherwise known as כפיה חילונית.
"I have no benefit from it. "
It's not about you and your shopping trips.
Do you call Independence Day(July 4) and ThanksGiving Day Public Holidays. In other not even acknowledge them?
When garbage pickup day coincides with one of the US public holidays, I have no choice but to acknowledge them.
But otherwise, no. I don't celebrate non-Jewish holidays. אל תשמח ישראל אל גיל העמים.
Dodgy yeshivish moshol alert.
I hope your 'medameh milsah l'milsah' in learning is better than comparing the IDF to Walmart.
אַחֵינוּ כָּל בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל
הַנְּתוּנִים בַּצָּרָה וּבַשִּׁבְיָה
הָעוֹמְדִים בברוקלין ובספרינג ואלי
Thanks. I'm touched.
It's not about you and you're narrow neighborhood. It's about all Jews in peril, where ever they may be.
It's that attitude that's missing. Whether from those who feel no gratitude because they live in the USA. Or those who declared the מלחמת מצוה over once they were sitting in clover. Or Satmar ideology which implicitly ignored the Jews still suffering in the Soviet sphere when the State was founded.
"It's about all Jews in peril, where ever they may be."
Oh okay. What's yom ha'zikaron got to do with that?
You don't want to raise kids to be warlike. You want to raise kids for peace. Many cultures don't put soldiers as examples for children for this reason.
I've always wondered if zechus is fungible. In school I used to insist that my learning was staying in my zechus because I needed it and presumably they'd need my permission to take it.
I know many soldiers who are not "warlike" and who would love to learn Torah all the time.
Which is why we don't raise them to admire soldiers but to admire Torah. We also don't raise them to aspire to be policemen or firemen or doctors or grave diggers. These are all necessary professions and admirable but not a wise idea to present to the masses as the ideal.
Im sorry but if you live in America its a totally different story here. Of course we want our kids to be doctors, firefighters, policemen, soldiers, etc. Btw the army is not a full time job here unlike the other jobs you mentioned. They continue on to yeshiva and college and only get called for reserves.
Absolutely, fighting is a last resort
But in our case we dont have any other options.
I am a nurse at Shalva, a center for special needs children of all ages and their families. We have many young men who volunteer here during a שנת שרות, so we also see many of them go into active IDF service after that. When these soldiers get a leave of a few days, they come back to Shalva to work with the kids and to see their friends. Get that? Fighters from active combat units in Gaza are spending their time away from the front wiping noses of handicapped children, taking them to the gymboree, and helping them change into and out of swimsuits for the therapeutic pool. Not hitting the bars or even just going home to sleep, not hanging out on the midrachov, but doing the most humble kinds of tasks with the most humble and vulnerable of עם ישראל. Not for money or for glory. They show up in uniform, rifles in tow, because that's the kind of warriors the Israeli religious Zionist youth produces.
Totally off-topic (apologies) but that's how my daughter met her husband! She was a Bat Sherut at Shalva, he was in Hesder and occasionally came to volunteer. They're on the "wall".
I know that wall!
And it's not like we chose to be attacked for the last 76 years
Wow, מי כעמך ישראל גוי אחד בארץ. Thank you for sharing this piece of inspiration
That's a nice little fantasy. As the old expression goes, "You may not be interested in war, but war is very interested in you." Israelis find that out, time and again.
My son has a plaque at the entrance of his school with about forty names on it. (That list has gotten somewhat longer since Shemini Atzeret.) And this is very, very common throughout Israel. Are they supposed to...ignore them?
It's so tragic. I wasn't saying to ignore them but traditionally Jews don't raise their kids to be soldiers
Traditionally? The Torah assumes that every single Jew will serve in the military, as indeed did every single world civilization until only a few decades ago. In many countries it's still the norm.
" but traditionally Jews don't raise their kids to be soldiers "
But halacha requires soldiers . And soldiers have to follow the particular הלכות that pertains to them.
So you're only half right. Jews don't raise their children to be soldiers; they should raise them to be halachic soldiers.
When were under attack we sure as heck do.
"You don't want to raise kids to be warlike." This is a complete non sequitur, in this situation. Not even chareidim bring this up in their defense
I was addressing the point of wanting children to grow up wanting to be a soldier.
"Wanting to be"? Israel has a mandatory universal draft, which is also what the Torah has. "Want" doesn't enter into it.
By the way, a good case can be made that a stint in the military is good for a kid.
Of course we want peace, but our culture admires those who fight when needed. Which yeshiva doesn't celebrate the Maccabees on Chanukah?
All of them? מי לה אלי, like by the egel
Are you seriously suggesting that it was OK that only a few people stood up at the egel?
Why is that not the case here? Were not fighting G-ds war?
But peaceniks just get blown up by jihadis.
That music festival last October 7 was a "peace" festival.
I'm not saying to be a peace in. But jews traditionally don't raise children to fight wars. We want to learn Torah and do mitzvod and fighting is a sad necessity.
Jews have been serving in the military and occasionally fighting in wars ever since the Christians (and later, the Muslims) emancipated us. Jews have served in every US war since the French and Indian War. Jews served on both sides in World War I -- one future Prime Minister of Israel, Moshe Sharrett, served in the Ottoman Army. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were in the Polish Army in 1939, tens of thousands in the French Army in 1940, and hundreds of thousands more served in the US, Soviet, British, and Canadian militaries during that war.
Jews have been fighting a lot longer than that.
By the way, in New Amsterdam, Jews fought for the right to be able to serve in the militia.
She means religious ones
Lots of religious Jews fought in non-Jewish armies.
Right but there i'd agree that it shouldn't be idealized. Besides for WW2, these were foreign wars which weren't really ours.
That was a product of the galut. Fighting is sad but its a מצווה like any other.
Agreed but we don't idealized galut.
You're just tossing out random arguments, none of which agree with each other.
What were you saying regarding jews "traditionally"...? That was in the galut when we couldn't fight. Now we can.
You don't want to raise kids to be warlike. You want to raise kids for peace. Many cultures don't put soldiers as examples for children for this reason.
This is not יהדות, it's pacifism which is an idolatrous ideology. It's a הלכה that in war, one has to be warlike.
"כשהיה יושב ועוסק בתורה - היה מעדן עצמו כתולעת, ובשעה שיוצא למלחמה - היה מקשה עצמו כעץ".
That's not a halacha...
I never said it was.
The הלכות of war can be found in the רמב"ם. He demands the soldier be warlike. But warlike as defined by הלכה.
The citation I provided was not a הלכה, but testimony regarding a Torah scholar who epitomized a Jew who was warlike in accordance with הלכה.
"You want to raise kids for peace."
That is a Christian attitude, not a Jewish attitude. We have a concept of a milchemet mitzvah; there are many "peace churches" who are opposed to all war no matter what the circumstances.
Or reinterpret those passages as primarily allegorical, as Chazal and the Kabbalists often do
It's kind of hard to reinterpret David throwing a rock at Goliath's head.
Haha. Don't underestimate the power of drush / allegorical reading
There's the concept of milchemes mitzva and its obvious implications that most of the time is milchemes rishus. And lots of Navi about in the future no more war
We are obviously not fighting a milchemet reshut now, as the borders of modern Israel are still smaller than those described in the Torah. And we're not living in the future, obviously.
מלחמת מצווה includes להשיב ישראל מיד הצר שבא עליהם.
The kvetchers will say "But Hamas also killed Arabs, so it doesn't count."
Among many other stupid "defenses."