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Joyous's avatar

This paragraph along with the following sentence is seriously problematic:

"In response to the first point, someone argued that surely they are simply following their rabbis, and therefore their Torah is learned legitimately, and is of merit. Others argued for technical differences from situations that are classified as mitzva ha-ba b’aveira. And in response to the second point, about the offensiveness, some objected that any resentment against charedim who don’t serve must stem from anti-charedi hatred, not any genuine frustration, because nobody resents Religious Zionists who serve in safe non-combat positions.

All of these rejoinders have the same flaw. One has to understand the difference between individuals and communities."

You cannot make a completely erroneous halachic argument, and then defend yourself by saying you were right about something else (which BTW you are not, as I will show). This demonstrates a terrible lack of intellectual honesty. The right thing to do is to admit you were wrong about that, and make your new argument.

You also make many arguments that are false:

"And you can’t claim support from revered rabbis who lived at a time when charedim were only a tiny fraction of the population..."

This is false. There were many chareidi Gedolim that lived and still do live when chareidim are more than a tiny percentage of the population (but still a relatively small percentage) and who support/ed the yeshiva exemptions.

"..or trot out Aggadic statements without any serious analysis of their parameters."

You didn't do any serious analysis of their parameters either, but dismissed them as idealistic aggadata. I trust actual talmidei chachamim to tell me when they apply.

"Some attempt to counter that the charedi community does not demand exemption for the entire community, just for those in full-time learning. But that is false. The exemption is demanded for everyone technically enrolled in yeshivah. No attempt whatsoever is made to check who is actually learning"

This is false. Yeshivos generally expel bachurim who don't show up.

"Israel needs charedim to enlist for two reasons. One is out of a societal responsibility to share the burden. It is simply intolerable for the rest of us in Israel that we risk our men and sons, whereas the charedi community does not."

There is a much greater societal responsibility for the rest of society to keep Shabbos, kashrus, taharos mishpacha, brachos, tefila, tefillin, and countless other mitzvos. Keeping the Torah is the only merit by which the Jews can keep EY, much more so than the IDF. (see a service member who testifies to this here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2) First let me see you rebuke the rest of your society for their utter failing in their responsibilities, until then, you have no leg to stand on to pontificate about societal responsibilities from others.

"What happens if we have to fight on multiple fronts? What happens if one day it’s not just Gaza, but also Palestinians of Judea and Samaria, accompanied by Israeli Arabs from Jerusalem and Lod and other towns, who decide to rise up against the Jews?"

Why do you think another 10% of the population will make such a difference in that case? I think God will make a much bigger difference than 10% of the population. And so do religious IDF soldiers, apparently https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2

"But in just one generation, nearly half of the country’s 18-year-olds will be charedi."

But this is the $500,000 question. Why is that? Why don't you guys have more kids if you think your country's survival depends on it? Why are you relying on the chareidi community to populate the country? This is totally a matter of your choice.

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Frank's avatar

I think we need to do what the benefactors of the Ivy League universities are doing. Stop the endowments until they address the serious issues of antisemitism on their campuses. Big benefactors of yeshivot should do similarly on a macro scale. And on a micro scale let the chareidim who come house to house asking for handouts rely on other chareidim. Not the dati Leumi community. We do more than enough already and there are plenty of other worthy causes to support.

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