This paragraph along with the following sentence is seriously problematic:
"In response to the first point, someone argued that surely they are simply following their rabbis, and therefore their Torah is learned legitimately, and is of merit. Others argued for technical differences from situations that are classified as mitzva ha-ba b’aveira. And in response to the second point, about the offensiveness, some objected that any resentment against charedim who don’t serve must stem from anti-charedi hatred, not any genuine frustration, because nobody resents Religious Zionists who serve in safe non-combat positions.
All of these rejoinders have the same flaw. One has to understand the difference between individuals and communities."
You cannot make a completely erroneous halachic argument, and then defend yourself by saying you were right about something else (which BTW you are not, as I will show). This demonstrates a terrible lack of intellectual honesty. The right thing to do is to admit you were wrong about that, and make your new argument.
You also make many arguments that are false:
"And you can’t claim support from revered rabbis who lived at a time when charedim were only a tiny fraction of the population..."
This is false. There were many chareidi Gedolim that lived and still do live when chareidim are more than a tiny percentage of the population (but still a relatively small percentage) and who support/ed the yeshiva exemptions.
"..or trot out Aggadic statements without any serious analysis of their parameters."
You didn't do any serious analysis of their parameters either, but dismissed them as idealistic aggadata. I trust actual talmidei chachamim to tell me when they apply.
"Some attempt to counter that the charedi community does not demand exemption for the entire community, just for those in full-time learning. But that is false. The exemption is demanded for everyone technically enrolled in yeshivah. No attempt whatsoever is made to check who is actually learning"
This is false. Yeshivos generally expel bachurim who don't show up.
"Israel needs charedim to enlist for two reasons. One is out of a societal responsibility to share the burden. It is simply intolerable for the rest of us in Israel that we risk our men and sons, whereas the charedi community does not."
There is a much greater societal responsibility for the rest of society to keep Shabbos, kashrus, taharos mishpacha, brachos, tefila, tefillin, and countless other mitzvos. Keeping the Torah is the only merit by which the Jews can keep EY, much more so than the IDF. (see a service member who testifies to this here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2) First let me see you rebuke the rest of your society for their utter failing in their responsibilities, until then, you have no leg to stand on to pontificate about societal responsibilities from others.
"What happens if we have to fight on multiple fronts? What happens if one day it’s not just Gaza, but also Palestinians of Judea and Samaria, accompanied by Israeli Arabs from Jerusalem and Lod and other towns, who decide to rise up against the Jews?"
Why do you think another 10% of the population will make such a difference in that case? I think God will make a much bigger difference than 10% of the population. And so do religious IDF soldiers, apparently https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2
"But in just one generation, nearly half of the country’s 18-year-olds will be charedi."
But this is the $500,000 question. Why is that? Why don't you guys have more kids if you think your country's survival depends on it? Why are you relying on the chareidi community to populate the country? This is totally a matter of your choice.
"I trust actual talmidei chachamim to tell me when they apply." NOBODY in the charedi world has analyzed the parameters. Nobody at all.
"Why do you think another 10% of the population will make such a difference in that case?"
It's not 10%. In one generation, it's nearly 50%.
"Why are you relying on the chareidi community to populate the country?" I've got five kids. Not relying on charedim to populate the country. Just to pull their weight in defending their population.
Someone who lives in the gutter, sees everything as mud.
YOU never analyzed the parameters, so you think that the Chachmei Hador are just like you. Ignorant parasites, who pull their decisions out of their posteriors.
But you are absolutely sure about this, you have no doubts that nobody analyzed these parameters. With no source for this surety.
As I wrote before - you are the arch-typical anti-vaxxer. They claim 'vaccines aren't tested' and therefore any test must be wrong. Basically, Del Bigtree is the Slifkin of medicine. The less you know the surer your opinion.
There are plenty of analyses of hishtadlus vs. emunah. Where are your analyses, besides for dismissing these as "idealistic aggadatah", which is not an analysis at all?
"NOBODY in the charedi world has analyzed the parameters. Nobody at all."
I trust actual talmidei chachamim to tell me when concrete parameters are necessary. For many, many halachos, they are not.
"I've got five kids. Not relying on charedim to populate the country. "
This rejoinders has the same flaw you criticize. One has to understand the difference between individuals and communities. As an *individual*, YOU are pulling your weight to populate the country. But the reason why in just one generation, nearly half of the country’s 18-year-olds will be charedim is because your *community* has given up on populating the country to the extent necessary to survive, instead relying on the chareidi community. Why is that?
If you think that nobody needs to figure out the parameters of when Torah protects and how that affects the need for soldiers, then you are just insane.
The Dati Leumi community has a plenty high birthrate. But the charedi community birthrate is much higher.
I am sorry you resort to name calling. That shows a lack of confidence in your arguments. Again, I trust actual talmidei chachamim regarding the need for parameters, just like I trust them regarding the parameters or lack thereof regarding many other halachos. You should do the same.
It's nice that the narrow DL community has a high birthrate. But the reason why in just one generation, nearly half of the country’s 18-year-olds will be charedim is because the broader community that you identify with has given up on populating the country to the extent necessary to survive, instead relying on the chareidi community.
I want to thank you for vividly illustrating the utter intellectual bankruptcy of the charedi community. "We trust the Gedolim to not have any need to figure out the parameters of the extent to which Torah protects vs. hishtadlus being required."
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter how many kids Zionists have. The more cities that there are, the more protection is needed. Why should Zionists have to protect charedim?
I want to thank you for vividly illustrating your utter intellectual dishonesty, both by never admitting when you are clearly wrong, and also in misrepresenting you opponents. "We trust the Gedolim to not have any need to figure out..." is a malicious misrepresentation, which totally discredits any opinion you may have on the matter. The honest representation is "We trust the Gedolim to to figure out *how important* the exact parameters of emunah vs. hishtadlus actually are, *just like* any other halacha or hashkafa with vague parameters"
Necessary to survive means having enough soldiers to defend yourself. Slifkin seems to think that without the chareidim joining en masse, we will all be butchered within a generation. Do you disagree? Do you think his statement represents somebody who is sane?
Natan why don't you enlist? I am still waiting for an answer you have been strangely reticent in replying. You could find a position as a cook or driver?
Again.? Don't you read about the surprise visits when the boys are not there in the yeshiva? The bochrim who sign up at 2 Yeshivot to get double allotment. And the Yeshiva gets the extra allotment for the missing Learner?
"You cannot make a completely erroneous halachic argument, and then defend yourself by saying you were right about something else"
You missed the point. R Slifkin: learning when you should be serving the state in conventional ways is like a mitzvah ha-ba b’aveira. Counter-argument: yeah but they are just following their Rabbis so they have cover and can't be faulted even if they should be serving. R. Slifkin's Rejoinder: It is possible you can't fault that individual who simply follows the Rabbi. But you can fault the system as a whole which enables Rabbis who pay no attention to the implications of their teachings and guide their followers into a damaging result. On the individual level, you can be absolved and if this was 400 people it would be no big deal, but when it is some 30% of the Jewish population being born now, the system is highly problematic and the learning at the expense of responsibility is a mitzvah ha-ba b’aveira even if each individual person can simply point to the system and say "ask them".
In any case, he is an am ha'aretz and his halachic "arguments" are worthless, especially against Gedolim, and don't even make sense. My argument was that even if the DL poskim were correct, they too recognize that the chareidi rabbis are very legitimate poskim working within their understanding of Torah. Those who don't recognize our poskim are usually kofrim, and usually recognizable by their support for gay pride (you would think this is unrelated but I have found it a very good indicator).
Yes, you are right in that the DL poskim are superior in that sense to the Charedi poskim. The DL will consider the Charedi Poskim to be Rabbis and take their opinions seriously where as the Charedi pokim today don't recognized the DL and are thus are at a huge disadvantage in Torah analysis by shutting out important ideas. R Slifkin's argument is not that they are not poskim but that p'sak is flawed in this case because they are not at all including any societal impacts (up to and including the dissolution of the country) into their analysis.
For the "nth" time, please provide a reference to a poseik you support doing this analysis.
"Those who don't recognize our poskim are usually kofrim".
Be careful what you say there. The Charedi generally don't recognize the DL poskim. That would make them kofrim by your standard.
This doesn't make the superior to chareidi poskim, but it makes them far more interested in the truth of the Torah than you or Slifkin.
Slifkin's argument is nonsense. The fact that people of questionable sanity have decided that chareidim are destroying the country by their non service doesn't mean that poskim ought to take this insane opinion into account, or analyze it. Where is your analysis taking into account the lizard people controlling the earth?
When I say Kofrim, I mean by an objective standard, like denying Torah Misinai, or denying miracles, etc.
"This doesn't make the superior to chareidi poskim, but it makes them far more interested in the truth of the Torah than you or Slifkin."
Same error repeated again. I don't avoid learning from them. I just disagree with them on certain issues.
"The fact that people of questionable sanity...". Ad hominem and assuming your conclusion.
" have decided that chareidim are destroying the country by their non service". Not his argument. You are ignoring the demographics. He argues fairness and unity now and potential disaster later as the percentages go up. This is absolutely standard analysis everywhere.
"doesn't mean that poskim ought to take this insane opinion into account, or analyze it." Precisely R Slifkin's point. They don't actually analyze the societal impact. I think that we have agreement.
"This is absolutely standard analysis everywhere."
Sources please. (E.g. How many soldiers are and will be needed? Based on what?) Most of what I've seen aren't analyses of anything. They're screeds along the lines of this blog.
I think we need to do what the benefactors of the Ivy League universities are doing. Stop the endowments until they address the serious issues of antisemitism on their campuses. Big benefactors of yeshivot should do similarly on a macro scale. And on a micro scale let the chareidim who come house to house asking for handouts rely on other chareidim. Not the dati Leumi community. We do more than enough already and there are plenty of other worthy causes to support.
You sound like a Young Israel guy in his 60s or older, watching helplessly as the world he knew disappears. Either that or you're incredibly out of touch. The frum world isn't supported by mizrachi types, and hasn't been for many years. Were it otherwise I would totally agree, people should support the causes dear to them, and not support the ones they dont. (This is different from the few bucks "handouts", as you call it; one should always give to someone who comes to the door asking.)
It's really funny that you accuse him of being out of touch and yet use words like "Young Israel" and "Mizrachi," which are outdated terms used by American charedim *and by no one else* to describe the Modern Orthodox and Dati Leumi.
Since when did you join the micro-aggression brigade, Nachum? Do you think we should also accept pronouns? Has the "Not Indians, Native Americans" PC police finally got to you?
Dont get so bent out of shape by nomenclature, Nachum. I dont get upset by you or anyone using the term "Charedim", a term no one uses outside of Israel. If you want, you can use the "Dati Leumi" term, and I'll continue to use the "Mizrachi" term that I grew up with, and that is STILL used by many here in the US.
Wrong on both accounts. I can’t say I know the ins and outs of who makes contributions (on the other hand you sound exceedingly confident) but one can only hope that pressure is exerted to cause a change in the chareidi world. I find it difficult to believe that anyone can sensibly refute R Natan’s arguments in this post.
I dont think he's said anything that requires refutation. He's just regurgitated the same arguments we've all heard for decades. I'm sure it sounds convincing to those already convinced, but to anyone else, sir, its just so much chin music.
There isn't much to refute. With all due respect to the IDF, Herzi Halevi isn't Moshe Rabeinu. His arguments are non-starters to anyone who doesn't share his worldview. Note that he never even spells out what number of soldiers the IDF needs, or how it managed to defeat multiple combined arab armies when Israel had a fraction of the population it has now. It's another in an endless line of regurgitated unsubstantiated rantings. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21529672https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/shteiging-into-the-abyss/comment/22924371
And you represent the סומכים על הנס argument which decides you can ignore the natural world and everything will be okay. We depend on G-d but we don't rely on "kriat hyam soof" miracles nor are we allowed to.
"The director of the Biblical Museum of Natural History said that he is willing to forgo any mention of dinosaurs or evolution in his museum in order to make the museum acceptable for Chareidim- the same Chareidim who he has criticized for fundamentally distorting Judaism and contradicting Chazal and Rishonim. Whoever will visit the museum and pay admission prices and buy his encyclopedia will be fully accommodated.
"How can he disregard his long-standing, bitter dispute regarding the proper education of our generation in exchange for money?!
"The tragic reason is, of course, because he is desperate, since his ambition to have a lasting impact on the world of Torah scholarship is incapable of succeeding without extensive financial support from others. (Namely, his father in-law and Chareidim who will patronize his museum)
"The Museum of Natural History is not the only sphere in which Natan Slifkin has sold out for money.
"Whether one agrees with it or not, the Modern orthodox world typically attempts to generate academic respectability for their Torah scholarship. Ki hi chochmaschem u’benaschem le’einei ho’amim! Natan Slifkin in particular has often told us that he has a deep, existential need to be brutally intellectually honest. One cannot advocate positions that are traditional simply on the basis of tradition if they do not withstand thorough academic scrutiny.
"But when it comes to getting chareidim to buy his Torah Encyclopedia of the Animal Kingdom in significant numbers, these principles are being tossed out the window. Natan Slifkin has often whined over the difficulties involved in trying to find the right wording which will delicately paper over the conflicts between Torah, Chazal and science lest it upset “its broad intended audience”. He desperately needs to (deceptively) portray his Torah Encyclopedia as acceptable for the chareidi community.
"All this reminds me of an old post I wrote (perhaps someone can find it for me) about academia. I quoted ba’alei teshuvah who were in academia who lamented that the academicians, who are in theory all about valuing and relentlessly searching for the truth and bravely accepting the data wherever it leads them, end up being the most obsessed with “the global consensus” and building up and maintaining their legacy when it comes to their life-long careers.
"Natan Slifkin has forced himself into a situation where the most crucial criterion is how much popularity and money he can generate from the broadest audience possible by self-censoring his published works and museum exhibits, since an autodidact with no formal zoological training but loves animals has no means of supporting himself.
"Chazal say that if a person does not teach his son a trade, it is as though he has taught him to steal. If a person has no means to support himself and becomes desperate for money, he will end up compromising his integrity. Once again, we see that Chazal were correct."
Noson Jesus either has forgotten or perhaps never knew that Moshe Dayan himself, a totally secular Jew, stated openly, the IDF did not need or want Torah learners and that they do their service to the country by learning. Noson Jesus is just an angry and frustrated man for the ill treatment he recieved from his erstwhile friends and rebbeim 20 years ago. His ranting about Charedim has nothinjg to do with any sincere belief he holds. It was the same with Jesus 2000 years ago. they pushed him away with two hands, which was wrong, but he followed the momentum of that push instead of working on resisting the push.
Furthermore, when ALL Jews in Israel, meaning also the secular Jews, are koveah Torah learning in their lives, then the Charedim will accept training for military duty.
Moshe Dayan, who Eban said was the only person he knew who violated all ten commandments is now the authority cited by SZG. I suppose it helps that it could be Dayan never said it, or at least didn't mean in the sense that SZG claims he did:
" In 1968, 4,700 yeshiva students were awarded a service deferment, and it was then-that Minister of Defense Moshe Dayan ruled that a maximum of 800 Torah students, in full-time study at recognized institutions, could join the deferment scheme each year. "
Who the hell are you to say that Dayan never said it? I don't know how old you are, but I came to E"Y 3 weeks after the 6 day war just before my 18th birthday. I knew well what was going on then and Dayan said it.
" I don't know how old you are, but I came to E"Y 3 weeks after the 6 day war just before my 18th birthday. I knew well what was going on then and Dayan said it."
If you're going to make an appeal to authority than it shouldn't be to a teenage greenhorn. Otherwise cite sources we can verify. Especially since the historical record indicates you're mistaken.
Wrong. Dayan was moral decay incarnate. Even today, he would rival the morally decayed. He doesn't become an authority because of the latter day rise of the alphabet people.
You must be dyslexic. In the same post that mentioned NK, I was clear that Reb Amram's NK had nothing to do with the Hirsh NK which has partnered with the Arabs.
This is a pointless and never ending discussion. The charei claims of Torah protecting and Emunah and Bitochon are just a cover for the real reason that the army service and secular education lead to the abandonment or dilution of the the religious observance and commitment. They don't want to be melted in the couldrom of TZAHL and this is a reasonable position and is the issue that needs to be addressed by finding a way to accomodate them. Everything else is a smoke screen.
Commander Slifkin's appearances on this blog lend support their misgivings.
If you agree, then your haranging against charedi avoidance of the army service is misplaced. Without addressing the real problem it gets us nowhere. Both the secular and the charedim are afraid of offering the accomodation that may work.
I think the constructive path is to expose the real issue which is that the charedi society may collapse if they go through the army service and to offer possible solutions that the charedim can accept. Based on the historical expirience their fears are justified.
DL start at a lower level to begin with and manage it with a high attrition rate, not something that charedim want to subject themselves to.
There is no Jewish equivalent to the Taliban or Hizbollah that can manage both. The Jewish religion and the genetic code don't seem to be suitable for it.
I would diagnose your smarminess as a way of avoiding dealing with an uncomfortable reality. The Mizrachi has a very serious problem of kids not remaining observant. You know it, I know it, the Gush knows it. That's not triumphalism, the Charedi world has its own problems.
The more I see such posts, the more I see what a coping mechanism it is for someone who never served himself. As if he can compensate for his failure by berating others. As though this somehow proves his patriotism. The whole country is united, the actual soldiers themselves we hear nothing but good vibes, but from here nothing has changed, the same old obsession with the Charedim. Way to go.
I'm reminded of the Jews in Egypt, trying to prove they were more Egyptian than the Egyptians, only to wind up getting enslaved. Or the Jews of pre WWII Germany. Or the Jewish communists of Russia. Or the "World of our Fathers" Jews of America. Always the same story. (I wonder if there's some sort of Arab version of NS, blogging about Israeli Arabs needing to show responsibility, community, etc.. I doubt it.)
It's just baloney that "the whole country is united." there is no unity when an entire community that is a gigantic sector of the population does not serve in the IDF.
I've seen - at the least - twenty different videos of actual *soldiers* dancing and hugging charedim and eating with them. I've heard at least the same amount of videos from soldiers and actors and comedians, secular Jews every one of them, talking about the achdus and the unity. If that's not representative of public opinion, then nothing ever is or will be. So you're simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Just like you believe you were wrong when you tried to become charedi, you're wrong here again. Get over it.
There is no unity when an entire community eats machine matzos and not hand matzos.
There is no unity when an entire community only learns beki'us, not be'iyun.
There is no unity when an entire community does not daven vasikin every day.
There is no unity when an entire community refuses to wear Rabbeinu Tam tefillin.
There is no unity when an entire community eats rice on Pesach.
(To those that need it explained. Unity of Jews transcends ideological differences. If someone confuses his ideology with himself, he contributes to disunity. Slifkin may be of the 'opinion' that he should serve in the Army. But unity should demand he grant others the right to have a different opinion and not be insulted for it. But he doesn't know what unity is, and his selfishness does not allow him to understand that his position will lead to permanent disunity)
He found a possuk, ignored its context, and answered a completely different point.
But to those who are reading -- if Bnei Gad and Bnei Reuven would not have fought the war in Eretz Yisroel, they would not have been removed from Klal Yisroel. In fact, they would still receive their portion in Eretz Yisroel.
Rabbi, I'm sorry, I agree with most of your politics and positions but this statement is simply indefensible.
Yes, they are completely wrong about whether or not their contribution in learning Torah helps defend this country. But you have no right to dismiss their *intentions* so thoroughly.
Unity of purpose, unity of goal, and unity of desire does not require unity of method. My wife and I don't agree on the extent to which (and whether) the IDF should take efforts to avoid killing Palestinian civilians during the war. Does that mean we're not "united" in the necessity of taking down Hamas?
You should apologize. This is needless השמצה and unbecoming of you.
I don't want to be the cause of additional discord. I always look forward to reading what you have to say but in this case I would appreciate if you wait to post it after the war.
A few things: first of all, it's probably true that this whole thing started when there was a smaller number of chareidim, fair point. But I don't really get what you want to suggest. That we should make it lechatchila for some boys to not have the opportunity to study in yeshiva for their formative years? Even those who don't go on to stay in learning forever, we think that these years are still supposed to be al taharos hakodesh. Is that not a value by you? If it isn't your have little say on the matter as a complete outsider.
Second point, which @Joyous will probably make: if you acknowledge the importance of avodas Hashem in all of this, let's make a deal: you guys provide more of the religious-obligation-responsibilities (shmiras shabbos, taharas hamishpacha,etc.) and we'll think about enlisting more people in the army... It's not a moot point or a talking point. It's a real point. Assuming we are doing the lion's share on this front it isn't quite as bad that they are doing the lion's share on that front. This doesn't negate your points but it does or things into our perspective.
Last point, who are you criticizing? The leaders? They disagree with you completely (as we said before). The common men of chareidi society? Any individual has no reason to claim responsibility of he is learning. And if he personally is not learning will enough, his rabbeim are specifically telling and encouraging him to be mischazek right now, which you agree is appropriate.
"we think that these years are still supposed to be al taharos hakodesh. Is that not a value by you?" Sure it's a value. But not as big a value as not being butchered to death. That's why my own son is learning for two years al taharos hakodesh, and then going to the army.
"let's make a deal". You don't get it. If you don't do your part, we all die.
This is not true, and to borrow your (uncalled for) language, insane. On the other hand, if secularists don't do their national responsibility of keeping the Torah, there may unfortunately be a lot of needless suffering, ח"ו.
I propose to you this thing called Hesder. A version of hesder can be made that works for the charedi population that allows them to meet the needs of the army and still learn in yeshiva for many of their formative years.
lol, was just thinking the same. Reminds me of Twitter. "Public opinion" looks very different than what it's claimed to be, when people can actually give their opinions publicly.
The "crucial distinction" you've invented is fiction. A community is nothing but a collection of individuals. Whatever you acknowledge as the right of an individual doesn't simply disappear because other individuals like him also exist.
So will you fix the post to reflect that you lied in the past, and that Charedim have never pushed for an exemption for Charedim?
Or will you double down and change your mind again?
You are the poster boy for 'the guy who went to Yeshiva and didn't learn anything'. Your lack of understanding, knowledge, or even translation has no effect on your twisted opinions and how sure you are of them.
They're not interested in enforcement. They do not want their guys to go to the IDF whether they are learning or not. The speeches and letters are for show, and to encourage guys to learn.
Who said this besides for Rav Ovadya? The other rabanim held that those learning half the day should draft? Rav shteinman made נצח יהודה for kiruv purposes. Even he didnt view it as a לכתחילה path for working men.
The תורתו אומנותו deferment was never allowed to apply to anyone but those learning all day.
The Gedolim were extremely makpid on this. See Reb Boruch Mordechai's speech to Va'adat Tal. They were extremely careful that the only demand should be for full-time learners.
What they held for non-full-time learners is another parsha.
Rav Shteinman did not make נצח יהודה, it is a lie from עץ and the חרד"לים.
and when you finish the page, click on רשומות קודמות for more. There are sharp letters from Rav Shach, Rav Abramsky, the Steipler, and more, against anyone using תורתו אומנותו for anything but full-time learning. The Steipler is quoted as saying so in private conversations, which cannot be misconstrued by Slifkins and his ilk from Eitz as window dressing.
Who made נצח יהודה?
The IDF. The IDF wished to draft Charedim, so they made a path for Charedim to join the army. See above where letters from Reb Aaron Leib are quoted too.
Both are trying to make a claim that the Charedim wish to free all Charedim from the army. Both are the same agenda-based liars, who ignore history and context to toot their own horns.
Define 'full time' and 'learner'. We all know of numerous bochurim and kollel men who seem to spend a considerable amount of their time schmoozing. Both during and out of seider.
What about those you see in the. afternoon walking the streets with their kids. They help in their wives who are working. So infact their learning is mostly confined to the morning. So where is full time learning or Torah Omnato.?
Below is what i wrote in early September, and have written blogs and articles elsewhere about it going back further.. seems now that it is more relevant than ever... i do believe it is the right solution for many reasons..
For Charedim, I believe there are two equally problematic positions:
(1) not participating in the defence of E"Y (contra State of Israel), which is an unequivocal obligation (Sotah 44);
(2) being exposed to an environment wholly unsuitable to continued Torah study and sincere observance.
It seems there is consensus on the principles for how to resolve this apparent dilemma - to ringfence national service opportunities in a religiously suitable environment that allows for continued Torah study.
The yeshiva hesder movement seems to be successful in allowing for continued Torah study, but not necessarily/always a suitable environment. Charedi units like Netzach Yehudah seem to do a more effective job on both scores but, if i understand correctly, face a challenge in creating an appropriate service culture.
So here's my suggestion. Just like ZAKA and hatzala are independent entities with their own ethos and operating procedure, but work in coordination with MDA and other national health/emergency institutions, so too there could be a charedi/dati defence organisation which is independent of the IDF, with its own ethos and operating procedures, but nonetheless works in close coordination with the IDF.
This in fact was already done when HaMishmar HaEzrachi (Mash'az) was founded in 1974, though it was ultimately incorporated into the IDF.
To make it workable, this could not be simply a parallel IDF, but rather a niche organisation that adds value in some manner where charedim/datim have a comparative advantage.
In my mind, that would involve setting up a Home Guard (there are 11 countries which have), with focus especially on securing habitations and protecting civilian populations in border areas (again emphasised in Gemara) [Note - 23 Oct , i wrote this in September.... tragically prescient, no?]
Units could be based around yeshivot and kollelim, integrate service activities around daily Torah learning schedules, all the while focusing their national service on a Torah priority - defence of E"Y and strengthening its borders - which even a non- or anti-zionist Charedi could agree with (stand to be corrected).
Such an organisation could also create opportunities beyond initial service for a long-term professional career, addressing another political hot-potato
Dear Yerushalmi. I’m going to guess that you don’t have children in the army. So maybe it’s difficult for you to understand that someone like Rabbi Slifkin, who does, and is bothered by this topic when there is no war, is doubly distraught now. Many of us share his feelings on the subject. Jump in when you feel the time is right.
Reminds me of that time when the Charedi world was reeling from a terrible incident in Meron, and some blogger was begged to leave his analysis for after the Shivah, because people are in pain.
How is demanding answers for a public safety failure for all the deaths in group A demeaning to the family members of the victims of group A? It might be uncomfortable of the leaders of group A who had a hand in it not but quite clearly supportive of the victims and their loved ones. There are plenty of Israelis not waiting to criticize the govt for the its failures in dealing with Hamas and with the aftermath.
"So maybe it’s difficult for you to understand that someone like Rabbi Slifkin, who does, and is bothered by this topic when there is no war, is doubly distraught now. Many of us share his feelings on the subject. Jump in when you feel the time is right."
I'm American, but have Israeli cousins in combat units. I'm under no illusions about the dangers they place themselves in. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21422297 But Dr Slifkin has been hammering this point non-stop for a decade and a half. This isn't some spur-of-the-moment pained response to anything.
I don't have children in the army - not yet - but it won't be long before I do.
I am well aware of the pain that the double standard causes throughout Israeli society.
But you may have noticed that the protests against the judicial reform have abated. The chanting of "crime minister" has disappeared. With very few exceptions, everybody who opposes this government recognizes that: A) It has failed the people of Israel at a spectacular level, and B) We need to deal with this first, and then we can deal with that.
The situation with the draft should be no different.
You had said all this before on numerous occasions. As usual no mention of the real reason that the charedim do not serve in the army or avoid secular studies and no attempt to address it.
Those who join the army have spent eighteen years preparing for it, growing up in an entire culture that prepares them physically, mentally and emotionally. Boys who have grown up in a sheltered charedi environment, never even having played organized sports, are simply not equipped.
He admits that the army isn't about service, it is an entire lifestyle from birth.
Which he demands Charedim give up.
And why? For the glickliche lifestyle of a secularist, with little Torah, little connection to Mitzvos, sexual licentiousness, and no real morals. But hey! We have a state.
"And why? For the glickliche lifestyle of a secularist, with little Torah, little connection to Mitzvos, sexual licentiousness, and no real morals." No, you idiot. They need to give it up so that we don't all get massacred. (But FYI, it is perfectly possible to create a charedi army framework with Torah, mitzvos, and no sexual licentiousness.)
Do you realize what the chareidi mission statement is? We need gedolei Torah and avodas Hashem, that's it. Everything else is noise. So yes, like any world view, this has some poor side affects, but that doesn't mean we should be bulldozing the entire system. In fact, we should be strengthening those weaknesses within the system and have people take their learning more seriously, not stress other values.
Okay, when we're all being butchered by Palestinians, we'll remind ourselves that this is just a poor side effect of the all-important need to produce Gedolim.
That's the reason. So what do you suggest? The Chareidim should harm their way of life? It seems you agree that a compromise can't be reached even if they would join. Then why do you blame them? They have a different value system than you, we know that, and you can't change that either.
I've said this to you before, but I remain convinced that there are multiple levels of reasons why charedim do each thing they do, and while each is somewhat true, the real reason is the one on the very bottom, which is the same reason for *everything* they do. In the case of IDF service it works like this:
1. "Bittul Torah." This is one they tell themselves, but they know it won't fly among most Israelis.
2. "We're defending the country by learning." They don't really believe this- or rather, they don't really think about it, and if they did, they wouldn't really believe it- but it's used for gullible outsiders, especially religious ones. Maybe even some secular ones, although to be honest they have nothing to say to those people.
3. "It will drive our kids off the derech." That is, not the charedi derech, but religion, period- to the extent they distinguish the two, which many don't. They of course do not want to admit this one even to themselves, at the very least because (if true, which it may well be) it doesn't speak well of their educational system.
4. The real reason: They still haven't made their peace with Zionism and the State of Israel, things which don't fit into their worldview or their ideas of how things were supposed to play out. (They were supposed to play out with Mashiach being a talmid chacham who would ride in to Sha'ar HaRachamim on a white donkey blowing a shofar. Seriously, that's how we were taught it growing up, even *after* the State had come into existence.) Or, to reduce it to the real reason that explains everything they do: "Nisht fun unzerer." It wasn't our people who did it. (Technically, the real charedi view, like the Satmar, is that even a state created entirely by charedim would be pasul, but I don't doubt the Satmar would have changed his mind if he was declared king.) Why don't they wear tekhelet? They can have a million reasons, but the real one is that it was discovered by a bunch of Modern Orthodox guys from Efrat. And on, and on, and so here.
If 4 was the real reason, there are plenty of chareidim who wear techeiles and the number is only growing, so according to you, they are all joining the army en masse. Problem solved. By the way, have you ever wondered why Slifkin doesn't wear techeiles? It has a lot more to do with this post than you might think.
Two corrections: There are many chareidi Gedolim that gave the state of Israel of being a POSSIBLE lead to the final Geula. They include Rav Chazkel Levinstien, Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz and others. Not all Chareidim are Satmar, but true, they are only hopeful, not convinced.
Techailes was proven from a Torah prospective by Chareidim, and no-one even heard of the academic ones among the lay-population.
Yes, "charedi" gedolim in 1948. Things have hardened a bit since then.
First, I think you mean "perspective." Second, I have no idea what you're talking about. It was re-discovered and re-proved by Religious Zionists, who are well-known. Do you mean it had to be re-proven by "kosher" sources? You've just proven my point.
The two names I quoted lived into the 1970's. My point was that that's not a reason on all Chareidim. Additionally, even those with a negative view on Zionism didn't hold it was forbidden (besides satmar and NT who play no role in the general chareidi society) so if that was the only reason we wouldn't send people out to defend from the dangers? The point is your theory is baseless.
As far as techailes, I didn't say who discovered, it was Chareidim like R tevger and Zilbermans who introduced it to chareidim, and before mizrachim were walking around with it, or any academic articles published. It makes no difference to chareidim who was in the lab at the time it was discovered that it's secretion can turn blue.
And by the way, the real reason why most Chareidim don't wear techailes is for the same reason Rabbi Slifkin doesn't, ironically.
I think you mean it is our Eretz Yisrael. "Israel" (or more accurately "Yisrael") is the name of our people. You don't have to click the link, you can copy and paste the URL into your browser if you like.
Thanks. I know what you think Rabbi Slifkin, I was curious as to what Yakov thinks. As I commented earlier, I think you really "nailed it" in this article Rabbi.
"In response to the first point, someone argued that surely they are simply following their rabbis, and therefore their Torah is learned legitimately, and is of merit."
---
And here I was thinking all these years that אין שליח לדבר עבירה!
For good measure, I'll throw in: ?דברי הרב ודברי התלמיד דברי מי שומעין
This paragraph along with the following sentence is seriously problematic:
"In response to the first point, someone argued that surely they are simply following their rabbis, and therefore their Torah is learned legitimately, and is of merit. Others argued for technical differences from situations that are classified as mitzva ha-ba b’aveira. And in response to the second point, about the offensiveness, some objected that any resentment against charedim who don’t serve must stem from anti-charedi hatred, not any genuine frustration, because nobody resents Religious Zionists who serve in safe non-combat positions.
All of these rejoinders have the same flaw. One has to understand the difference between individuals and communities."
You cannot make a completely erroneous halachic argument, and then defend yourself by saying you were right about something else (which BTW you are not, as I will show). This demonstrates a terrible lack of intellectual honesty. The right thing to do is to admit you were wrong about that, and make your new argument.
You also make many arguments that are false:
"And you can’t claim support from revered rabbis who lived at a time when charedim were only a tiny fraction of the population..."
This is false. There were many chareidi Gedolim that lived and still do live when chareidim are more than a tiny percentage of the population (but still a relatively small percentage) and who support/ed the yeshiva exemptions.
"..or trot out Aggadic statements without any serious analysis of their parameters."
You didn't do any serious analysis of their parameters either, but dismissed them as idealistic aggadata. I trust actual talmidei chachamim to tell me when they apply.
"Some attempt to counter that the charedi community does not demand exemption for the entire community, just for those in full-time learning. But that is false. The exemption is demanded for everyone technically enrolled in yeshivah. No attempt whatsoever is made to check who is actually learning"
This is false. Yeshivos generally expel bachurim who don't show up.
"Israel needs charedim to enlist for two reasons. One is out of a societal responsibility to share the burden. It is simply intolerable for the rest of us in Israel that we risk our men and sons, whereas the charedi community does not."
There is a much greater societal responsibility for the rest of society to keep Shabbos, kashrus, taharos mishpacha, brachos, tefila, tefillin, and countless other mitzvos. Keeping the Torah is the only merit by which the Jews can keep EY, much more so than the IDF. (see a service member who testifies to this here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2) First let me see you rebuke the rest of your society for their utter failing in their responsibilities, until then, you have no leg to stand on to pontificate about societal responsibilities from others.
"What happens if we have to fight on multiple fronts? What happens if one day it’s not just Gaza, but also Palestinians of Judea and Samaria, accompanied by Israeli Arabs from Jerusalem and Lod and other towns, who decide to rise up against the Jews?"
Why do you think another 10% of the population will make such a difference in that case? I think God will make a much bigger difference than 10% of the population. And so do religious IDF soldiers, apparently https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2
"But in just one generation, nearly half of the country’s 18-year-olds will be charedi."
But this is the $500,000 question. Why is that? Why don't you guys have more kids if you think your country's survival depends on it? Why are you relying on the chareidi community to populate the country? This is totally a matter of your choice.
"I trust actual talmidei chachamim to tell me when they apply." NOBODY in the charedi world has analyzed the parameters. Nobody at all.
"Why do you think another 10% of the population will make such a difference in that case?"
It's not 10%. In one generation, it's nearly 50%.
"Why are you relying on the chareidi community to populate the country?" I've got five kids. Not relying on charedim to populate the country. Just to pull their weight in defending their population.
“I've got five kids. Not relying on charedim to populate the country.”
😂
Someone who lives in the gutter, sees everything as mud.
YOU never analyzed the parameters, so you think that the Chachmei Hador are just like you. Ignorant parasites, who pull their decisions out of their posteriors.
But you are absolutely sure about this, you have no doubts that nobody analyzed these parameters. With no source for this surety.
As I wrote before - you are the arch-typical anti-vaxxer. They claim 'vaccines aren't tested' and therefore any test must be wrong. Basically, Del Bigtree is the Slifkin of medicine. The less you know the surer your opinion.
Go ahead and show me the analyses. With such a weighty and crucial matter, they must be extensive and easy to find.
There are plenty of analyses of hishtadlus vs. emunah. Where are your analyses, besides for dismissing these as "idealistic aggadatah", which is not an analysis at all?
So now they have to be extensive, otherwise there are NONE.
And they have to be easy to find too.
Because.................................................................
You sound like Brucha Weissberger when she asks for studies on the efficacy of the covid virus.
"NOBODY in the charedi world has analyzed the parameters. Nobody at all."
I trust actual talmidei chachamim to tell me when concrete parameters are necessary. For many, many halachos, they are not.
"I've got five kids. Not relying on charedim to populate the country. "
This rejoinders has the same flaw you criticize. One has to understand the difference between individuals and communities. As an *individual*, YOU are pulling your weight to populate the country. But the reason why in just one generation, nearly half of the country’s 18-year-olds will be charedim is because your *community* has given up on populating the country to the extent necessary to survive, instead relying on the chareidi community. Why is that?
If you think that nobody needs to figure out the parameters of when Torah protects and how that affects the need for soldiers, then you are just insane.
The Dati Leumi community has a plenty high birthrate. But the charedi community birthrate is much higher.
I am sorry you resort to name calling. That shows a lack of confidence in your arguments. Again, I trust actual talmidei chachamim regarding the need for parameters, just like I trust them regarding the parameters or lack thereof regarding many other halachos. You should do the same.
It's nice that the narrow DL community has a high birthrate. But the reason why in just one generation, nearly half of the country’s 18-year-olds will be charedim is because the broader community that you identify with has given up on populating the country to the extent necessary to survive, instead relying on the chareidi community.
I want to thank you for vividly illustrating the utter intellectual bankruptcy of the charedi community. "We trust the Gedolim to not have any need to figure out the parameters of the extent to which Torah protects vs. hishtadlus being required."
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter how many kids Zionists have. The more cities that there are, the more protection is needed. Why should Zionists have to protect charedim?
I want to thank you for vividly illustrating your utter intellectual dishonesty, both by never admitting when you are clearly wrong, and also in misrepresenting you opponents. "We trust the Gedolim to not have any need to figure out..." is a malicious misrepresentation, which totally discredits any opinion you may have on the matter. The honest representation is "We trust the Gedolim to to figure out *how important* the exact parameters of emunah vs. hishtadlus actually are, *just like* any other halacha or hashkafa with vague parameters"
" Why should Zionists have to protect charedim?'
This is seriously your question? It was never a question of survival, but just *why* some Jews should protect other Jews? In any case, chareidim also protect Zionists, so we are good. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
"Why should Zionists have to protect charedim?"
So chareidim can do their duty of hishtadlus 😀
Yep, that is what they claim.
What's "the extent necessary to survive"? Even the secular in Israel have a high birthrate, compared to the rest of the developed world.
Necessary to survive means having enough soldiers to defend yourself. Slifkin seems to think that without the chareidim joining en masse, we will all be butchered within a generation. Do you disagree? Do you think his statement represents somebody who is sane?
Natan why don't you enlist? I am still waiting for an answer you have been strangely reticent in replying. You could find a position as a cook or driver?
"This is false. Yeshivos generally expel bachurim who don't show up."
Oh really? What about those that sometimes 'show up"?
Again.? Don't you read about the surprise visits when the boys are not there in the yeshiva? The bochrim who sign up at 2 Yeshivot to get double allotment. And the Yeshiva gets the extra allotment for the missing Learner?
What about those who go straight from the minyan factory to the mikvah, to enjoy cholent and sheitels?
"You cannot make a completely erroneous halachic argument, and then defend yourself by saying you were right about something else"
You missed the point. R Slifkin: learning when you should be serving the state in conventional ways is like a mitzvah ha-ba b’aveira. Counter-argument: yeah but they are just following their Rabbis so they have cover and can't be faulted even if they should be serving. R. Slifkin's Rejoinder: It is possible you can't fault that individual who simply follows the Rabbi. But you can fault the system as a whole which enables Rabbis who pay no attention to the implications of their teachings and guide their followers into a damaging result. On the individual level, you can be absolved and if this was 400 people it would be no big deal, but when it is some 30% of the Jewish population being born now, the system is highly problematic and the learning at the expense of responsibility is a mitzvah ha-ba b’aveira even if each individual person can simply point to the system and say "ask them".
Looks like you don't understand the halachic issues here, see here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-sign-that-mashiach-is-coming-natan
In any case, he is an am ha'aretz and his halachic "arguments" are worthless, especially against Gedolim, and don't even make sense. My argument was that even if the DL poskim were correct, they too recognize that the chareidi rabbis are very legitimate poskim working within their understanding of Torah. Those who don't recognize our poskim are usually kofrim, and usually recognizable by their support for gay pride (you would think this is unrelated but I have found it a very good indicator).
Yes, you are right in that the DL poskim are superior in that sense to the Charedi poskim. The DL will consider the Charedi Poskim to be Rabbis and take their opinions seriously where as the Charedi pokim today don't recognized the DL and are thus are at a huge disadvantage in Torah analysis by shutting out important ideas. R Slifkin's argument is not that they are not poskim but that p'sak is flawed in this case because they are not at all including any societal impacts (up to and including the dissolution of the country) into their analysis.
For the "nth" time, please provide a reference to a poseik you support doing this analysis.
"Those who don't recognize our poskim are usually kofrim".
Be careful what you say there. The Charedi generally don't recognize the DL poskim. That would make them kofrim by your standard.
This doesn't make the superior to chareidi poskim, but it makes them far more interested in the truth of the Torah than you or Slifkin.
Slifkin's argument is nonsense. The fact that people of questionable sanity have decided that chareidim are destroying the country by their non service doesn't mean that poskim ought to take this insane opinion into account, or analyze it. Where is your analysis taking into account the lizard people controlling the earth?
When I say Kofrim, I mean by an objective standard, like denying Torah Misinai, or denying miracles, etc.
"This doesn't make the superior to chareidi poskim, but it makes them far more interested in the truth of the Torah than you or Slifkin."
Same error repeated again. I don't avoid learning from them. I just disagree with them on certain issues.
"The fact that people of questionable sanity...". Ad hominem and assuming your conclusion.
" have decided that chareidim are destroying the country by their non service". Not his argument. You are ignoring the demographics. He argues fairness and unity now and potential disaster later as the percentages go up. This is absolutely standard analysis everywhere.
"doesn't mean that poskim ought to take this insane opinion into account, or analyze it." Precisely R Slifkin's point. They don't actually analyze the societal impact. I think that we have agreement.
"This is absolutely standard analysis everywhere."
Sources please. (E.g. How many soldiers are and will be needed? Based on what?) Most of what I've seen aren't analyses of anything. They're screeds along the lines of this blog.
I think we need to do what the benefactors of the Ivy League universities are doing. Stop the endowments until they address the serious issues of antisemitism on their campuses. Big benefactors of yeshivot should do similarly on a macro scale. And on a micro scale let the chareidim who come house to house asking for handouts rely on other chareidim. Not the dati Leumi community. We do more than enough already and there are plenty of other worthy causes to support.
What century are you living in?
The 21st. Unlike most of the chareidim who are still living somewhere in the Middle Ages with their galut mentality
You sound like a Young Israel guy in his 60s or older, watching helplessly as the world he knew disappears. Either that or you're incredibly out of touch. The frum world isn't supported by mizrachi types, and hasn't been for many years. Were it otherwise I would totally agree, people should support the causes dear to them, and not support the ones they dont. (This is different from the few bucks "handouts", as you call it; one should always give to someone who comes to the door asking.)
It's really funny that you accuse him of being out of touch and yet use words like "Young Israel" and "Mizrachi," which are outdated terms used by American charedim *and by no one else* to describe the Modern Orthodox and Dati Leumi.
“American chareidim” is a term used nowhere else except this blog. In the real world the closest American counterpart to chareidi is “Yeshivish”
I love the way yeshivish types think they're the definition of "charedi" when chassidm vastly outnumber them, in both the US and Israel.
Since when did you join the micro-aggression brigade, Nachum? Do you think we should also accept pronouns? Has the "Not Indians, Native Americans" PC police finally got to you?
Dont get so bent out of shape by nomenclature, Nachum. I dont get upset by you or anyone using the term "Charedim", a term no one uses outside of Israel. If you want, you can use the "Dati Leumi" term, and I'll continue to use the "Mizrachi" term that I grew up with, and that is STILL used by many here in the US.
We dont want to go back to the middle ages.....WE WANT TO GO BACK TO SINAI AGES!!!!!!!
רב לכם שבת בהר הזה. ודוק
Cute. But I don't think DK meant it that way.
Wrong on both accounts. I can’t say I know the ins and outs of who makes contributions (on the other hand you sound exceedingly confident) but one can only hope that pressure is exerted to cause a change in the chareidi world. I find it difficult to believe that anyone can sensibly refute R Natan’s arguments in this post.
I dont think he's said anything that requires refutation. He's just regurgitated the same arguments we've all heard for decades. I'm sure it sounds convincing to those already convinced, but to anyone else, sir, its just so much chin music.
Nothing penetrates your thick skull. State your arguments.!
"Thick Skull" is an ad hominem, counselor. Not the way to win friends and influence people.
You can see my arguments supra, infra, and passim.
There isn't much to refute. With all due respect to the IDF, Herzi Halevi isn't Moshe Rabeinu. His arguments are non-starters to anyone who doesn't share his worldview. Note that he never even spells out what number of soldiers the IDF needs, or how it managed to defeat multiple combined arab armies when Israel had a fraction of the population it has now. It's another in an endless line of regurgitated unsubstantiated rantings. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21529672https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/shteiging-into-the-abyss/comment/22924371
And you represent the סומכים על הנס argument which decides you can ignore the natural world and everything will be okay. We depend on G-d but we don't rely on "kriat hyam soof" miracles nor are we allowed to.
You just made that up. It certainly isn't based on anything I said.
To really be principled about it, he should stop soliciting money and sales from them while censoring what he believes to be the truth.
https://slifkinchallenge.blogspot.com/2015/03/selling-out.html
"The director of the Biblical Museum of Natural History said that he is willing to forgo any mention of dinosaurs or evolution in his museum in order to make the museum acceptable for Chareidim- the same Chareidim who he has criticized for fundamentally distorting Judaism and contradicting Chazal and Rishonim. Whoever will visit the museum and pay admission prices and buy his encyclopedia will be fully accommodated.
"How can he disregard his long-standing, bitter dispute regarding the proper education of our generation in exchange for money?!
"The tragic reason is, of course, because he is desperate, since his ambition to have a lasting impact on the world of Torah scholarship is incapable of succeeding without extensive financial support from others. (Namely, his father in-law and Chareidim who will patronize his museum)
"The Museum of Natural History is not the only sphere in which Natan Slifkin has sold out for money.
"Whether one agrees with it or not, the Modern orthodox world typically attempts to generate academic respectability for their Torah scholarship. Ki hi chochmaschem u’benaschem le’einei ho’amim! Natan Slifkin in particular has often told us that he has a deep, existential need to be brutally intellectually honest. One cannot advocate positions that are traditional simply on the basis of tradition if they do not withstand thorough academic scrutiny.
"But when it comes to getting chareidim to buy his Torah Encyclopedia of the Animal Kingdom in significant numbers, these principles are being tossed out the window. Natan Slifkin has often whined over the difficulties involved in trying to find the right wording which will delicately paper over the conflicts between Torah, Chazal and science lest it upset “its broad intended audience”. He desperately needs to (deceptively) portray his Torah Encyclopedia as acceptable for the chareidi community.
"All this reminds me of an old post I wrote (perhaps someone can find it for me) about academia. I quoted ba’alei teshuvah who were in academia who lamented that the academicians, who are in theory all about valuing and relentlessly searching for the truth and bravely accepting the data wherever it leads them, end up being the most obsessed with “the global consensus” and building up and maintaining their legacy when it comes to their life-long careers.
"Natan Slifkin has forced himself into a situation where the most crucial criterion is how much popularity and money he can generate from the broadest audience possible by self-censoring his published works and museum exhibits, since an autodidact with no formal zoological training but loves animals has no means of supporting himself.
"Chazal say that if a person does not teach his son a trade, it is as though he has taught him to steal. If a person has no means to support himself and becomes desperate for money, he will end up compromising his integrity. Once again, we see that Chazal were correct."
What are you saying "until they address the serious issues of antisemitism on their campuses"- please clarify
Noson Jesus either has forgotten or perhaps never knew that Moshe Dayan himself, a totally secular Jew, stated openly, the IDF did not need or want Torah learners and that they do their service to the country by learning. Noson Jesus is just an angry and frustrated man for the ill treatment he recieved from his erstwhile friends and rebbeim 20 years ago. His ranting about Charedim has nothinjg to do with any sincere belief he holds. It was the same with Jesus 2000 years ago. they pushed him away with two hands, which was wrong, but he followed the momentum of that push instead of working on resisting the push.
Furthermore, when ALL Jews in Israel, meaning also the secular Jews, are koveah Torah learning in their lives, then the Charedim will accept training for military duty.
Moshe Dayan, who Eban said was the only person he knew who violated all ten commandments is now the authority cited by SZG. I suppose it helps that it could be Dayan never said it, or at least didn't mean in the sense that SZG claims he did:
" In 1968, 4,700 yeshiva students were awarded a service deferment, and it was then-that Minister of Defense Moshe Dayan ruled that a maximum of 800 Torah students, in full-time study at recognized institutions, could join the deferment scheme each year. "
https://en.idi.org.il/articles/24626 (and many other sources)
I would also recommend that you refrain from indulging in the severe prohibition of nicknaming.
Really, Dayan said that?
He didn't, of course. But it's kind of funny that you're appealing to Dayan for halakhic authority.
Then again, Dayan *did* write a perush on Tanach, which puts him one sefer above a lot of the full-time learners out there.
Who the hell are you to say that Dayan never said it? I don't know how old you are, but I came to E"Y 3 weeks after the 6 day war just before my 18th birthday. I knew well what was going on then and Dayan said it.
" I don't know how old you are, but I came to E"Y 3 weeks after the 6 day war just before my 18th birthday. I knew well what was going on then and Dayan said it."
If you're going to make an appeal to authority than it shouldn't be to a teenage greenhorn. Otherwise cite sources we can verify. Especially since the historical record indicates you're mistaken.
Watch you're language, buddy. You still haven't shown me that he said.
Oh, and you didn't come to "E"Y." You came to Israel.
So you will judge todays situation by a statement supposedly made 56 years ago….,
Quite often what was said a long time ago is more true than what is said today. Look at the moral decay in the world of the last 50 years.
Oh yes sender, I see it so clearly right here…🙄
Wrong. Dayan was moral decay incarnate. Even today, he would rival the morally decayed. He doesn't become an authority because of the latter day rise of the alphabet people.
Aren’t you a self identified member of neturei karta? And shouldn’t you be demonstrating with all your Palestinian brothers in support of Gaza?
You don't need to be a Brisker to make a distinction between the wrong-headed, wingnuts, tin-foilers and nihilist crackpots.
I am no member of any NK group, but comparing the two groups with the same name is like comparing Mizrachi to kibutznicks.
You must be dyslexic. In the same post that mentioned NK, I was clear that Reb Amram's NK had nothing to do with the Hirsh NK which has partnered with the Arabs.
Dyslexia would not cause someone to confuse the distinctions between two crackpot groups. Please insult using a more fitting disorder.
Right. Like the difference between good ISIS and bad ISIS. Good NK and bad NK. Sender is a follower of the good NK. I stand corrected
This is a pointless and never ending discussion. The charei claims of Torah protecting and Emunah and Bitochon are just a cover for the real reason that the army service and secular education lead to the abandonment or dilution of the the religious observance and commitment. They don't want to be melted in the couldrom of TZAHL and this is a reasonable position and is the issue that needs to be addressed by finding a way to accomodate them. Everything else is a smoke screen.
Commander Slifkin's appearances on this blog lend support their misgivings.
Correct.
If you agree, then your haranging against charedi avoidance of the army service is misplaced. Without addressing the real problem it gets us nowhere. Both the secular and the charedim are afraid of offering the accomodation that may work.
But as long as they CLAIM that this is their reason for not serving in the IDF, it has to be rebutted.
I think the constructive path is to expose the real issue which is that the charedi society may collapse if they go through the army service and to offer possible solutions that the charedim can accept. Based on the historical expirience their fears are justified.
And yet Dati Leumi people manage it. What does that say about charedi education?
DL start at a lower level to begin with and manage it with a high attrition rate, not something that charedim want to subject themselves to.
There is no Jewish equivalent to the Taliban or Hizbollah that can manage both. The Jewish religion and the genetic code don't seem to be suitable for it.
Hiltop youth
Sweat kids on the fringe.
Lots of Dati Leumi people manage to do it. With their superior background, it should be a piece of cake for charedim.
I would diagnose your smarminess as a way of avoiding dealing with an uncomfortable reality. The Mizrachi has a very serious problem of kids not remaining observant. You know it, I know it, the Gush knows it. That's not triumphalism, the Charedi world has its own problems.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-city-next-to-the-river
The more I see such posts, the more I see what a coping mechanism it is for someone who never served himself. As if he can compensate for his failure by berating others. As though this somehow proves his patriotism. The whole country is united, the actual soldiers themselves we hear nothing but good vibes, but from here nothing has changed, the same old obsession with the Charedim. Way to go.
I'm reminded of the Jews in Egypt, trying to prove they were more Egyptian than the Egyptians, only to wind up getting enslaved. Or the Jews of pre WWII Germany. Or the Jewish communists of Russia. Or the "World of our Fathers" Jews of America. Always the same story. (I wonder if there's some sort of Arab version of NS, blogging about Israeli Arabs needing to show responsibility, community, etc.. I doubt it.)
It's just baloney that "the whole country is united." there is no unity when an entire community that is a gigantic sector of the population does not serve in the IDF.
"There is no unity when everybody does not share my personal opinion."
I've seen - at the least - twenty different videos of actual *soldiers* dancing and hugging charedim and eating with them. I've heard at least the same amount of videos from soldiers and actors and comedians, secular Jews every one of them, talking about the achdus and the unity. If that's not representative of public opinion, then nothing ever is or will be. So you're simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Just like you believe you were wrong when you tried to become charedi, you're wrong here again. Get over it.
There is no unity when an entire community eats machine matzos and not hand matzos.
There is no unity when an entire community only learns beki'us, not be'iyun.
There is no unity when an entire community does not daven vasikin every day.
There is no unity when an entire community refuses to wear Rabbeinu Tam tefillin.
There is no unity when an entire community eats rice on Pesach.
(To those that need it explained. Unity of Jews transcends ideological differences. If someone confuses his ideology with himself, he contributes to disunity. Slifkin may be of the 'opinion' that he should serve in the Army. But unity should demand he grant others the right to have a different opinion and not be insulted for it. But he doesn't know what unity is, and his selfishness does not allow him to understand that his position will lead to permanent disunity)
וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה לִבְנֵי גָד וְלִבְנֵי רְאוּבֵן הַאַחֵיכֶם יָבֹאוּ לַמִּלְחָמָה וְאַתֶּם תֵּשְׁבוּ פֹה
וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם֙ אֶת־הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת כִּ֛י קֹ֥דֶשׁ הִ֖וא לָכֶ֑ם מְחַֽלְלֶ֙יהָ֙ מ֣וֹת יוּמָ֔ת כִּ֗י כׇּל־הָעֹשֶׂ֥ה בָהּ֙ מְלָאכָ֔ה וְנִכְרְתָ֛ה הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַהִ֖וא מִקֶּ֥רֶב עַמֶּֽיהָ׃
Oh yeah, forgot that ZD mentioned machine matzos. No unity if you eat those, as Moshe exhorts us:
וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת הַמַּצּוֹת כִּי בְּעֶצֶם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה הוֹצֵאתִי אֶת צִבְאוֹתֵיכֶם מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם
Wow!
The absolute sheer genius!
He found a possuk, ignored its context, and answered a completely different point.
But to those who are reading -- if Bnei Gad and Bnei Reuven would not have fought the war in Eretz Yisroel, they would not have been removed from Klal Yisroel. In fact, they would still receive their portion in Eretz Yisroel.
Obviously, this possuk is not a caveat to unity.
תנחומא:
וְכֵן אַתְּ מוֹצֵא בִּבְנֵי גָּד וּבְנֵי רְאוּבֵן, שֶׁהָיוּ עֲשִׁירִים הַרְבֵּה וְהָיָה לָהֶם מִקְנֶה גָּדוֹל וְחִבְּבוּ אֶת מָמוֹנָם וְיָשְׁבוּ לָהֶם חוּצָה לָאָרֶץ. לְכָךְ גָּלוּ תְּחִלָּה מִכָּל הַשְּׁבָטִים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: וַיַּגְלֵם לָרְאוּבֵנִי וְלַגָּדִי וְלַחֲצִי שֵׁבֶט הַמְּנַשִּׁי (דה״א ה, כו). וּמִי גָּרַם לָהֶם. עַל שֶׁהִפְרִישׁוּ עַצְמָם מִן אֲחֵיהֶם בִּשְׁבִיל מִקְנֵיהֶם.
Wow!
So fighting in the army to conquer Eretz Yisroel didn't help them at all.
What does that tell us?
Rabbi, I'm sorry, I agree with most of your politics and positions but this statement is simply indefensible.
Yes, they are completely wrong about whether or not their contribution in learning Torah helps defend this country. But you have no right to dismiss their *intentions* so thoroughly.
Unity of purpose, unity of goal, and unity of desire does not require unity of method. My wife and I don't agree on the extent to which (and whether) the IDF should take efforts to avoid killing Palestinian civilians during the war. Does that mean we're not "united" in the necessity of taking down Hamas?
You should apologize. This is needless השמצה and unbecoming of you.
I'll write a separate post addressing your point.
I don't want to be the cause of additional discord. I always look forward to reading what you have to say but in this case I would appreciate if you wait to post it after the war.
Non Chareidim are not risking their lives and don't expect to. What are the parameters? All those who want to and are encouraged to learn in Yeshiva.
A few things: first of all, it's probably true that this whole thing started when there was a smaller number of chareidim, fair point. But I don't really get what you want to suggest. That we should make it lechatchila for some boys to not have the opportunity to study in yeshiva for their formative years? Even those who don't go on to stay in learning forever, we think that these years are still supposed to be al taharos hakodesh. Is that not a value by you? If it isn't your have little say on the matter as a complete outsider.
Second point, which @Joyous will probably make: if you acknowledge the importance of avodas Hashem in all of this, let's make a deal: you guys provide more of the religious-obligation-responsibilities (shmiras shabbos, taharas hamishpacha,etc.) and we'll think about enlisting more people in the army... It's not a moot point or a talking point. It's a real point. Assuming we are doing the lion's share on this front it isn't quite as bad that they are doing the lion's share on that front. This doesn't negate your points but it does or things into our perspective.
Last point, who are you criticizing? The leaders? They disagree with you completely (as we said before). The common men of chareidi society? Any individual has no reason to claim responsibility of he is learning. And if he personally is not learning will enough, his rabbeim are specifically telling and encouraging him to be mischazek right now, which you agree is appropriate.
"we think that these years are still supposed to be al taharos hakodesh. Is that not a value by you?" Sure it's a value. But not as big a value as not being butchered to death. That's why my own son is learning for two years al taharos hakodesh, and then going to the army.
"let's make a deal". You don't get it. If you don't do your part, we all die.
"Last point, who are you criticizing?" Everyone.
"If you don't do your part, we all die."
This is not true, and to borrow your (uncalled for) language, insane. On the other hand, if secularists don't do their national responsibility of keeping the Torah, there may unfortunately be a lot of needless suffering, ח"ו.
Your mendacity is not astonishing, but is worthy of pointing out.
Your son is not learning for two years 'al taharas hakodesh'. As you wrote, the Army mentality starts long before actually serving.
I propose to you this thing called Hesder. A version of hesder can be made that works for the charedi population that allows them to meet the needs of the army and still learn in yeshiva for many of their formative years.
Another 'surprisingly well received' post.
lol, was just thinking the same. Reminds me of Twitter. "Public opinion" looks very different than what it's claimed to be, when people can actually give their opinions publicly.
The "crucial distinction" you've invented is fiction. A community is nothing but a collection of individuals. Whatever you acknowledge as the right of an individual doesn't simply disappear because other individuals like him also exist.
Excellent analysis in differentiating between community and individuals.
I think the problem with your writing is that it's in English and therefor talks to a very small minority of the country.
Cheers
In that case, I think a permanent Hebrew version of the blog is needed, no?
R u mb?
mb ?
Lol just a guy who always ends off his comments with "cheers" :)
A similar argument could be made about the wholesale exemption given to women of the religious Zionist community.
No. Because they do Sherut Leumi. And their husbands are in combat roles to a much higher degree than the secular community.
Or about chutznikim who don't volunteer.
One thing about Milkhemes Mitzvah; nothing limits the obligation to serve to Jews who are living there.
I think R' Lichtenstein made that point. R' Rakeffet frequently does.
That might well include women as well, at least in the pshat.
R Rakeffet says they should throw all mechallelei shabbos out of the army. (He's kidding, I think.)
So instead of admitting your lies, you just double down on them. Even when they are irrelevant to the point.
I can show speeches, letters and directives that prove that only full-time learners are to be deferred. But Slifkin cannot admit the truth.
Sure. There are lots of such speeches and letters and directives. But no enforcement.
So will you fix the post to reflect that you lied in the past, and that Charedim have never pushed for an exemption for Charedim?
Or will you double down and change your mind again?
You are the poster boy for 'the guy who went to Yeshiva and didn't learn anything'. Your lack of understanding, knowledge, or even translation has no effect on your twisted opinions and how sure you are of them.
They're not interested in enforcement. They do not want their guys to go to the IDF whether they are learning or not. The speeches and letters are for show, and to encourage guys to learn.
Who said this besides for Rav Ovadya? The other rabanim held that those learning half the day should draft? Rav shteinman made נצח יהודה for kiruv purposes. Even he didnt view it as a לכתחילה path for working men.
The תורתו אומנותו deferment was never allowed to apply to anyone but those learning all day.
The Gedolim were extremely makpid on this. See Reb Boruch Mordechai's speech to Va'adat Tal. They were extremely careful that the only demand should be for full-time learners.
What they held for non-full-time learners is another parsha.
Rav Shteinman did not make נצח יהודה, it is a lie from עץ and the חרד"לים.
Even Rav Shach agreed? He said explicitly that one not learning full time should draft? Who made נצח יהודה then if not him?
Of course! He was the most vocal of all.
See here https://kvarhaya.blogspot.com/search/label/%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA%D7%95%20%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%95
and when you finish the page, click on רשומות קודמות for more. There are sharp letters from Rav Shach, Rav Abramsky, the Steipler, and more, against anyone using תורתו אומנותו for anything but full-time learning. The Steipler is quoted as saying so in private conversations, which cannot be misconstrued by Slifkins and his ilk from Eitz as window dressing.
Who made נצח יהודה?
The IDF. The IDF wished to draft Charedim, so they made a path for Charedim to join the army. See above where letters from Reb Aaron Leib are quoted too.
Why do you compare slifkin to eitz?
Both are trying to make a claim that the Charedim wish to free all Charedim from the army. Both are the same agenda-based liars, who ignore history and context to toot their own horns.
What is a 'full time learner' exactly?
Define 'full time' and 'learner'. We all know of numerous bochurim and kollel men who seem to spend a considerable amount of their time schmoozing. Both during and out of seider.
Are they learners? Are they 'full-time'?
As a rebbe of mine once said, "If I was being paid to learn, I'd treat it as a job, which means zero goofing off for a solid eight hours a day."
it's a good thing that the army and the state have a definition for what it means to be full-time
What about those you see in the. afternoon walking the streets with their kids. They help in their wives who are working. So infact their learning is mostly confined to the morning. So where is full time learning or Torah Omnato.?
Indeed. What about the 10 weeks paid vacation? And the long paternity leave? And what percentage turn up to seider on time?
Below is what i wrote in early September, and have written blogs and articles elsewhere about it going back further.. seems now that it is more relevant than ever... i do believe it is the right solution for many reasons..
**********************************************************************
For Charedim, I believe there are two equally problematic positions:
(1) not participating in the defence of E"Y (contra State of Israel), which is an unequivocal obligation (Sotah 44);
(2) being exposed to an environment wholly unsuitable to continued Torah study and sincere observance.
It seems there is consensus on the principles for how to resolve this apparent dilemma - to ringfence national service opportunities in a religiously suitable environment that allows for continued Torah study.
The yeshiva hesder movement seems to be successful in allowing for continued Torah study, but not necessarily/always a suitable environment. Charedi units like Netzach Yehudah seem to do a more effective job on both scores but, if i understand correctly, face a challenge in creating an appropriate service culture.
So here's my suggestion. Just like ZAKA and hatzala are independent entities with their own ethos and operating procedure, but work in coordination with MDA and other national health/emergency institutions, so too there could be a charedi/dati defence organisation which is independent of the IDF, with its own ethos and operating procedures, but nonetheless works in close coordination with the IDF.
This in fact was already done when HaMishmar HaEzrachi (Mash'az) was founded in 1974, though it was ultimately incorporated into the IDF.
To make it workable, this could not be simply a parallel IDF, but rather a niche organisation that adds value in some manner where charedim/datim have a comparative advantage.
In my mind, that would involve setting up a Home Guard (there are 11 countries which have), with focus especially on securing habitations and protecting civilian populations in border areas (again emphasised in Gemara) [Note - 23 Oct , i wrote this in September.... tragically prescient, no?]
Units could be based around yeshivot and kollelim, integrate service activities around daily Torah learning schedules, all the while focusing their national service on a Torah priority - defence of E"Y and strengthening its borders - which even a non- or anti-zionist Charedi could agree with (stand to be corrected).
Such an organisation could also create opportunities beyond initial service for a long-term professional career, addressing another political hot-potato
Dear Yerushalmi. I’m going to guess that you don’t have children in the army. So maybe it’s difficult for you to understand that someone like Rabbi Slifkin, who does, and is bothered by this topic when there is no war, is doubly distraught now. Many of us share his feelings on the subject. Jump in when you feel the time is right.
Reminds me of that time when the Charedi world was reeling from a terrible incident in Meron, and some blogger was begged to leave his analysis for after the Shivah, because people are in pain.
How is demanding answers for a public safety failure for all the deaths in group A demeaning to the family members of the victims of group A? It might be uncomfortable of the leaders of group A who had a hand in it not but quite clearly supportive of the victims and their loved ones. There are plenty of Israelis not waiting to criticize the govt for the its failures in dealing with Hamas and with the aftermath.
You don't think non-charedim weren't in pain?
You don't think non-Charedim are 'people'?
People in pain can say whatever they want.
"So maybe it’s difficult for you to understand that someone like Rabbi Slifkin, who does, and is bothered by this topic when there is no war, is doubly distraught now. Many of us share his feelings on the subject. Jump in when you feel the time is right."
I'm American, but have Israeli cousins in combat units. I'm under no illusions about the dangers they place themselves in. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21422297 But Dr Slifkin has been hammering this point non-stop for a decade and a half. This isn't some spur-of-the-moment pained response to anything.
I don't have children in the army - not yet - but it won't be long before I do.
I am well aware of the pain that the double standard causes throughout Israeli society.
But you may have noticed that the protests against the judicial reform have abated. The chanting of "crime minister" has disappeared. With very few exceptions, everybody who opposes this government recognizes that: A) It has failed the people of Israel at a spectacular level, and B) We need to deal with this first, and then we can deal with that.
The situation with the draft should be no different.
You had said all this before on numerous occasions. As usual no mention of the real reason that the charedim do not serve in the army or avoid secular studies and no attempt to address it.
Oh, but he did say so:
Those who join the army have spent eighteen years preparing for it, growing up in an entire culture that prepares them physically, mentally and emotionally. Boys who have grown up in a sheltered charedi environment, never even having played organized sports, are simply not equipped.
He admits that the army isn't about service, it is an entire lifestyle from birth.
Which he demands Charedim give up.
And why? For the glickliche lifestyle of a secularist, with little Torah, little connection to Mitzvos, sexual licentiousness, and no real morals. But hey! We have a state.
"And why? For the glickliche lifestyle of a secularist, with little Torah, little connection to Mitzvos, sexual licentiousness, and no real morals." No, you idiot. They need to give it up so that we don't all get massacred. (But FYI, it is perfectly possible to create a charedi army framework with Torah, mitzvos, and no sexual licentiousness.)
You should really read what that guy Slifkin wrote. Or better if you don't.
But he wrote that Charedim who grow up Charedi, generally cannot become soldiers in the Army.
According to that pea brained ignorant pseudo-opinion, there is a choice between being Charedi or a soldier, both cannot coexist.
INDIVIDUALS cannot. The COMMUNITY can create frameworks. Like Hesder. Or Rav Karmi Gross's system.
Do you realize what the chareidi mission statement is? We need gedolei Torah and avodas Hashem, that's it. Everything else is noise. So yes, like any world view, this has some poor side affects, but that doesn't mean we should be bulldozing the entire system. In fact, we should be strengthening those weaknesses within the system and have people take their learning more seriously, not stress other values.
Okay, when we're all being butchered by Palestinians, we'll remind ourselves that this is just a poor side effect of the all-important need to produce Gedolim.
"Everything else is noise."
Dissonance isn't noise.
Oddly, the system has yet to produce a single gadol.
Maybe if every new gadol appointed wasn't over the age of 90, but we have no way of knowing that.
In the real world you must do and then pray and learn.
Too bad the Chareidi individual better adjust and the Yeshivot have a duty to help him do the Mitzvah.
Please let us know what you think the "real reason" is. Thanks.
The real reason is that it would harm their way of life, and why should they do that when they can get other people to do it instead.
That's the reason. So what do you suggest? The Chareidim should harm their way of life? It seems you agree that a compromise can't be reached even if they would join. Then why do you blame them? They have a different value system than you, we know that, and you can't change that either.
I've said this to you before, but I remain convinced that there are multiple levels of reasons why charedim do each thing they do, and while each is somewhat true, the real reason is the one on the very bottom, which is the same reason for *everything* they do. In the case of IDF service it works like this:
1. "Bittul Torah." This is one they tell themselves, but they know it won't fly among most Israelis.
2. "We're defending the country by learning." They don't really believe this- or rather, they don't really think about it, and if they did, they wouldn't really believe it- but it's used for gullible outsiders, especially religious ones. Maybe even some secular ones, although to be honest they have nothing to say to those people.
3. "It will drive our kids off the derech." That is, not the charedi derech, but religion, period- to the extent they distinguish the two, which many don't. They of course do not want to admit this one even to themselves, at the very least because (if true, which it may well be) it doesn't speak well of their educational system.
4. The real reason: They still haven't made their peace with Zionism and the State of Israel, things which don't fit into their worldview or their ideas of how things were supposed to play out. (They were supposed to play out with Mashiach being a talmid chacham who would ride in to Sha'ar HaRachamim on a white donkey blowing a shofar. Seriously, that's how we were taught it growing up, even *after* the State had come into existence.) Or, to reduce it to the real reason that explains everything they do: "Nisht fun unzerer." It wasn't our people who did it. (Technically, the real charedi view, like the Satmar, is that even a state created entirely by charedim would be pasul, but I don't doubt the Satmar would have changed his mind if he was declared king.) Why don't they wear tekhelet? They can have a million reasons, but the real one is that it was discovered by a bunch of Modern Orthodox guys from Efrat. And on, and on, and so here.
If 4 was the real reason, there are plenty of chareidim who wear techeiles and the number is only growing, so according to you, they are all joining the army en masse. Problem solved. By the way, have you ever wondered why Slifkin doesn't wear techeiles? It has a lot more to do with this post than you might think.
It means there are a lot of open-minded charedim.
I know that R' Slifkin doesn't wear it. That's entirely unrelated.
Which totally refutes your point. Thanks.
Two corrections: There are many chareidi Gedolim that gave the state of Israel of being a POSSIBLE lead to the final Geula. They include Rav Chazkel Levinstien, Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz and others. Not all Chareidim are Satmar, but true, they are only hopeful, not convinced.
Techailes was proven from a Torah prospective by Chareidim, and no-one even heard of the academic ones among the lay-population.
Yes, "charedi" gedolim in 1948. Things have hardened a bit since then.
First, I think you mean "perspective." Second, I have no idea what you're talking about. It was re-discovered and re-proved by Religious Zionists, who are well-known. Do you mean it had to be re-proven by "kosher" sources? You've just proven my point.
The two names I quoted lived into the 1970's. My point was that that's not a reason on all Chareidim. Additionally, even those with a negative view on Zionism didn't hold it was forbidden (besides satmar and NT who play no role in the general chareidi society) so if that was the only reason we wouldn't send people out to defend from the dangers? The point is your theory is baseless.
As far as techailes, I didn't say who discovered, it was Chareidim like R tevger and Zilbermans who introduced it to chareidim, and before mizrachim were walking around with it, or any academic articles published. It makes no difference to chareidim who was in the lab at the time it was discovered that it's secretion can turn blue.
And by the way, the real reason why most Chareidim don't wear techailes is for the same reason Rabbi Slifkin doesn't, ironically.
The real reason is a combination of 1, 2 and 3, and they believe in those alot more than you guys believe in your Zionism https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/i/136116034/we-were-just-kidding-about-the-whole-zionism-thing
"You guys" and "your Zionism"? You do realize it's *your* Israel as well, right?
No, I will not click on your link.
I think you mean it is our Eretz Yisrael. "Israel" (or more accurately "Yisrael") is the name of our people. You don't have to click the link, you can copy and paste the URL into your browser if you like.
Thanks. I know what you think Rabbi Slifkin, I was curious as to what Yakov thinks. As I commented earlier, I think you really "nailed it" in this article Rabbi.
"In response to the first point, someone argued that surely they are simply following their rabbis, and therefore their Torah is learned legitimately, and is of merit."
---
And here I was thinking all these years that אין שליח לדבר עבירה!
For good measure, I'll throw in: ?דברי הרב ודברי התלמיד דברי מי שומעין