I think we need to do what the benefactors of the Ivy League universities are doing. Stop the endowments until they address the serious issues of antisemitism on their campuses. Big benefactors of yeshivot should do similarly on a macro scale. And on a micro scale let the chareidim who come house to house asking for handouts rely on other chareidim. Not the dati Leumi community. We do more than enough already and there are plenty of other worthy causes to support.
You sound like a Young Israel guy in his 60s or older, watching helplessly as the world he knew disappears. Either that or you're incredibly out of touch. The frum world isn't supported by mizrachi types, and hasn't been for many years. Were it otherwise I would totally agree, people should support the causes dear to them, and not support the ones they dont. (This is different from the few bucks "handouts", as you call it; one should always give to someone who comes to the door asking.)
It's really funny that you accuse him of being out of touch and yet use words like "Young Israel" and "Mizrachi," which are outdated terms used by American charedim *and by no one else* to describe the Modern Orthodox and Dati Leumi.
Since when did you join the micro-aggression brigade, Nachum? Do you think we should also accept pronouns? Has the "Not Indians, Native Americans" PC police finally got to you?
Dont get so bent out of shape by nomenclature, Nachum. I dont get upset by you or anyone using the term "Charedim", a term no one uses outside of Israel. If you want, you can use the "Dati Leumi" term, and I'll continue to use the "Mizrachi" term that I grew up with, and that is STILL used by many here in the US.
Wrong on both accounts. I can’t say I know the ins and outs of who makes contributions (on the other hand you sound exceedingly confident) but one can only hope that pressure is exerted to cause a change in the chareidi world. I find it difficult to believe that anyone can sensibly refute R Natan’s arguments in this post.
I dont think he's said anything that requires refutation. He's just regurgitated the same arguments we've all heard for decades. I'm sure it sounds convincing to those already convinced, but to anyone else, sir, its just so much chin music.
And you represent the סומכים על הנס argument which decides you can ignore the natural world and everything will be okay. We depend on G-d but we don't rely on "kriat hyam soof" miracles nor are we allowed to.
This is a pointless and never ending discussion. The charei claims of Torah protecting and Emunah and Bitochon are just a cover for the real reason that the army service and secular education lead to the abandonment or dilution of the the religious observance and commitment. They don't want to be melted in the couldrom of TZAHL and this is a reasonable position and is the issue that needs to be addressed by finding a way to accomodate them. Everything else is a smoke screen.
Commander Slifkin's appearances on this blog lend support their misgivings.
If you agree, then your haranging against charedi avoidance of the army service is misplaced. Without addressing the real problem it gets us nowhere. Both the secular and the charedim are afraid of offering the accomodation that may work.
I think the constructive path is to expose the real issue which is that the charedi society may collapse if they go through the army service and to offer possible solutions that the charedim can accept. Based on the historical expirience their fears are justified.
DL start at a lower level to begin with and manage it with a high attrition rate, not something that charedim want to subject themselves to.
There is no Jewish equivalent to the Taliban or Hizbollah that can manage both. The Jewish religion and the genetic code don't seem to be suitable for it.
I would diagnose your smarminess as a way of avoiding dealing with an uncomfortable reality. The Mizrachi has a very serious problem of kids not remaining observant. You know it, I know it, the Gush knows it. That's not triumphalism, the Charedi world has its own problems.
The more I see such posts, the more I see what a coping mechanism it is for someone who never served himself. As if he can compensate for his failure by berating others. As though this somehow proves his patriotism. The whole country is united, the actual soldiers themselves we hear nothing but good vibes, but from here nothing has changed, the same old obsession with the Charedim. Way to go.
I'm reminded of the Jews in Egypt, trying to prove they were more Egyptian than the Egyptians, only to wind up getting enslaved. Or the Jews of pre WWII Germany. Or the Jewish communists of Russia. Or the "World of our Fathers" Jews of America. Always the same story. (I wonder if there's some sort of Arab version of NS, blogging about Israeli Arabs needing to show responsibility, community, etc.. I doubt it.)
It's just baloney that "the whole country is united." there is no unity when an entire community that is a gigantic sector of the population does not serve in the IDF.
I've seen - at the least - twenty different videos of actual *soldiers* dancing and hugging charedim and eating with them. I've heard at least the same amount of videos from soldiers and actors and comedians, secular Jews every one of them, talking about the achdus and the unity. If that's not representative of public opinion, then nothing ever is or will be. So you're simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Just like you believe you were wrong when you tried to become charedi, you're wrong here again. Get over it.
Rabbi, I'm sorry, I agree with most of your politics and positions but this statement is simply indefensible.
Yes, they are completely wrong about whether or not their contribution in learning Torah helps defend this country. But you have no right to dismiss their *intentions* so thoroughly.
Unity of purpose, unity of goal, and unity of desire does not require unity of method. My wife and I don't agree on the extent to which (and whether) the IDF should take efforts to avoid killing Palestinian civilians during the war. Does that mean we're not "united" in the necessity of taking down Hamas?
You should apologize. This is needless השמצה and unbecoming of you.
I don't want to be the cause of additional discord. I always look forward to reading what you have to say but in this case I would appreciate if you wait to post it after the war.
A few things: first of all, it's probably true that this whole thing started when there was a smaller number of chareidim, fair point. But I don't really get what you want to suggest. That we should make it lechatchila for some boys to not have the opportunity to study in yeshiva for their formative years? Even those who don't go on to stay in learning forever, we think that these years are still supposed to be al taharos hakodesh. Is that not a value by you? If it isn't your have little say on the matter as a complete outsider.
Second point, which @Joyous will probably make: if you acknowledge the importance of avodas Hashem in all of this, let's make a deal: you guys provide more of the religious-obligation-responsibilities (shmiras shabbos, taharas hamishpacha,etc.) and we'll think about enlisting more people in the army... It's not a moot point or a talking point. It's a real point. Assuming we are doing the lion's share on this front it isn't quite as bad that they are doing the lion's share on that front. This doesn't negate your points but it does or things into our perspective.
Last point, who are you criticizing? The leaders? They disagree with you completely (as we said before). The common men of chareidi society? Any individual has no reason to claim responsibility of he is learning. And if he personally is not learning will enough, his rabbeim are specifically telling and encouraging him to be mischazek right now, which you agree is appropriate.
"we think that these years are still supposed to be al taharos hakodesh. Is that not a value by you?" Sure it's a value. But not as big a value as not being butchered to death. That's why my own son is learning for two years al taharos hakodesh, and then going to the army.
"let's make a deal". You don't get it. If you don't do your part, we all die.
I propose to you this thing called Hesder. A version of hesder can be made that works for the charedi population that allows them to meet the needs of the army and still learn in yeshiva for many of their formative years.
The "crucial distinction" you've invented is fiction. A community is nothing but a collection of individuals. Whatever you acknowledge as the right of an individual doesn't simply disappear because other individuals like him also exist.
Below is what i wrote in early September, and have written blogs and articles elsewhere about it going back further.. seems now that it is more relevant than ever... i do believe it is the right solution for many reasons..
For Charedim, I believe there are two equally problematic positions:
(1) not participating in the defence of E"Y (contra State of Israel), which is an unequivocal obligation (Sotah 44);
(2) being exposed to an environment wholly unsuitable to continued Torah study and sincere observance.
It seems there is consensus on the principles for how to resolve this apparent dilemma - to ringfence national service opportunities in a religiously suitable environment that allows for continued Torah study.
The yeshiva hesder movement seems to be successful in allowing for continued Torah study, but not necessarily/always a suitable environment. Charedi units like Netzach Yehudah seem to do a more effective job on both scores but, if i understand correctly, face a challenge in creating an appropriate service culture.
So here's my suggestion. Just like ZAKA and hatzala are independent entities with their own ethos and operating procedure, but work in coordination with MDA and other national health/emergency institutions, so too there could be a charedi/dati defence organisation which is independent of the IDF, with its own ethos and operating procedures, but nonetheless works in close coordination with the IDF.
This in fact was already done when HaMishmar HaEzrachi (Mash'az) was founded in 1974, though it was ultimately incorporated into the IDF.
To make it workable, this could not be simply a parallel IDF, but rather a niche organisation that adds value in some manner where charedim/datim have a comparative advantage.
In my mind, that would involve setting up a Home Guard (there are 11 countries which have), with focus especially on securing habitations and protecting civilian populations in border areas (again emphasised in Gemara) [Note - 23 Oct , i wrote this in September.... tragically prescient, no?]
Units could be based around yeshivot and kollelim, integrate service activities around daily Torah learning schedules, all the while focusing their national service on a Torah priority - defence of E"Y and strengthening its borders - which even a non- or anti-zionist Charedi could agree with (stand to be corrected).
Such an organisation could also create opportunities beyond initial service for a long-term professional career, addressing another political hot-potato
Dear Yerushalmi. I’m going to guess that you don’t have children in the army. So maybe it’s difficult for you to understand that someone like Rabbi Slifkin, who does, and is bothered by this topic when there is no war, is doubly distraught now. Many of us share his feelings on the subject. Jump in when you feel the time is right.
I don't have children in the army - not yet - but it won't be long before I do.
I am well aware of the pain that the double standard causes throughout Israeli society.
But you may have noticed that the protests against the judicial reform have abated. The chanting of "crime minister" has disappeared. With very few exceptions, everybody who opposes this government recognizes that: A) It has failed the people of Israel at a spectacular level, and B) We need to deal with this first, and then we can deal with that.
The situation with the draft should be no different.
How is demanding answers for a public safety failure for all the deaths in group A demeaning to the family members of the victims of group A? It might be uncomfortable of the leaders of group A who had a hand in it not but quite clearly supportive of the victims and their loved ones. There are plenty of Israelis not waiting to criticize the govt for the its failures in dealing with Hamas and with the aftermath.
You had said all this before on numerous occasions. As usual no mention of the real reason that the charedim do not serve in the army or avoid secular studies and no attempt to address it.
That's the reason. So what do you suggest? The Chareidim should harm their way of life? It seems you agree that a compromise can't be reached even if they would join. Then why do you blame them? They have a different value system than you, we know that, and you can't change that either.
I've said this to you before, but I remain convinced that there are multiple levels of reasons why charedim do each thing they do, and while each is somewhat true, the real reason is the one on the very bottom, which is the same reason for *everything* they do. In the case of IDF service it works like this:
1. "Bittul Torah." This is one they tell themselves, but they know it won't fly among most Israelis.
2. "We're defending the country by learning." They don't really believe this- or rather, they don't really think about it, and if they did, they wouldn't really believe it- but it's used for gullible outsiders, especially religious ones. Maybe even some secular ones, although to be honest they have nothing to say to those people.
3. "It will drive our kids off the derech." That is, not the charedi derech, but religion, period- to the extent they distinguish the two, which many don't. They of course do not want to admit this one even to themselves, at the very least because (if true, which it may well be) it doesn't speak well of their educational system.
4. The real reason: They still haven't made their peace with Zionism and the State of Israel, things which don't fit into their worldview or their ideas of how things were supposed to play out. (They were supposed to play out with Mashiach being a talmid chacham who would ride in to Sha'ar HaRachamim on a white donkey blowing a shofar. Seriously, that's how we were taught it growing up, even *after* the State had come into existence.) Or, to reduce it to the real reason that explains everything they do: "Nisht fun unzerer." It wasn't our people who did it. (Technically, the real charedi view, like the Satmar, is that even a state created entirely by charedim would be pasul, but I don't doubt the Satmar would have changed his mind if he was declared king.) Why don't they wear tekhelet? They can have a million reasons, but the real one is that it was discovered by a bunch of Modern Orthodox guys from Efrat. And on, and on, and so here.
Two corrections: There are many chareidi Gedolim that gave the state of Israel of being a POSSIBLE lead to the final Geula. They include Rav Chazkel Levinstien, Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz and others. Not all Chareidim are Satmar, but true, they are only hopeful, not convinced.
Techailes was proven from a Torah prospective by Chareidim, and no-one even heard of the academic ones among the lay-population.
Yes, "charedi" gedolim in 1948. Things have hardened a bit since then.
First, I think you mean "perspective." Second, I have no idea what you're talking about. It was re-discovered and re-proved by Religious Zionists, who are well-known. Do you mean it had to be re-proven by "kosher" sources? You've just proven my point.
The two names I quoted lived into the 1970's. My point was that that's not a reason on all Chareidim. Additionally, even those with a negative view on Zionism didn't hold it was forbidden (besides satmar and NT who play no role in the general chareidi society) so if that was the only reason we wouldn't send people out to defend from the dangers? The point is your theory is baseless.
As far as techailes, I didn't say who discovered, it was Chareidim like R tevger and Zilbermans who introduced it to chareidim, and before mizrachim were walking around with it, or any academic articles published. It makes no difference to chareidim who was in the lab at the time it was discovered that it's secretion can turn blue.
And by the way, the real reason why most Chareidim don't wear techailes is for the same reason Rabbi Slifkin doesn't, ironically.
Thanks. I know what you think Rabbi Slifkin, I was curious as to what Yakov thinks. As I commented earlier, I think you really "nailed it" in this article Rabbi.
"And why? For the glickliche lifestyle of a secularist, with little Torah, little connection to Mitzvos, sexual licentiousness, and no real morals." No, you idiot. They need to give it up so that we don't all get massacred. (But FYI, it is perfectly possible to create a charedi army framework with Torah, mitzvos, and no sexual licentiousness.)
Do you realize what the chareidi mission statement is? We need gedolei Torah and avodas Hashem, that's it. Everything else is noise. So yes, like any world view, this has some poor side affects, but that doesn't mean we should be bulldozing the entire system. In fact, we should be strengthening those weaknesses within the system and have people take their learning more seriously, not stress other values.
Okay, when we're all being butchered by Palestinians, we'll remind ourselves that this is just a poor side effect of the all-important need to produce Gedolim.
"In response to the first point, someone argued that surely they are simply following their rabbis, and therefore their Torah is learned legitimately, and is of merit."
---
And here I was thinking all these years that אין שליח לדבר עבירה!
For good measure, I'll throw in: ?דברי הרב ודברי התלמיד דברי מי שומעין
The Chareidim have a greater asset to motivate them and inspire them to do army 🐕🦺 service, powerful belief in G-d and and his Torah. They may need some support and encouragement from their rabbinic leadership.
Rabbi Breitowitz was asked by the host Ari Wasserman a very loaded question, does he think the fact that secular Jews died on Shabbos/ST reflects on the cilil Hashem of neila in TA
RB responded: the points you're raising may be correct, but I feel very anxious about looking at other people, or other communities, to attribute the spiritual blame to them. Instead I prefer to look at myself and what I can do.
I think we need to do what the benefactors of the Ivy League universities are doing. Stop the endowments until they address the serious issues of antisemitism on their campuses. Big benefactors of yeshivot should do similarly on a macro scale. And on a micro scale let the chareidim who come house to house asking for handouts rely on other chareidim. Not the dati Leumi community. We do more than enough already and there are plenty of other worthy causes to support.
What century are you living in?
The 21st. Unlike most of the chareidim who are still living somewhere in the Middle Ages with their galut mentality
You sound like a Young Israel guy in his 60s or older, watching helplessly as the world he knew disappears. Either that or you're incredibly out of touch. The frum world isn't supported by mizrachi types, and hasn't been for many years. Were it otherwise I would totally agree, people should support the causes dear to them, and not support the ones they dont. (This is different from the few bucks "handouts", as you call it; one should always give to someone who comes to the door asking.)
It's really funny that you accuse him of being out of touch and yet use words like "Young Israel" and "Mizrachi," which are outdated terms used by American charedim *and by no one else* to describe the Modern Orthodox and Dati Leumi.
Since when did you join the micro-aggression brigade, Nachum? Do you think we should also accept pronouns? Has the "Not Indians, Native Americans" PC police finally got to you?
Dont get so bent out of shape by nomenclature, Nachum. I dont get upset by you or anyone using the term "Charedim", a term no one uses outside of Israel. If you want, you can use the "Dati Leumi" term, and I'll continue to use the "Mizrachi" term that I grew up with, and that is STILL used by many here in the US.
I love the way yeshivish types think they're the definition of "charedi" when chassidm vastly outnumber them, in both the US and Israel.
We dont want to go back to the middle ages.....WE WANT TO GO BACK TO SINAI AGES!!!!!!!
רב לכם שבת בהר הזה. ודוק
Cute. But I don't think DK meant it that way.
Wrong on both accounts. I can’t say I know the ins and outs of who makes contributions (on the other hand you sound exceedingly confident) but one can only hope that pressure is exerted to cause a change in the chareidi world. I find it difficult to believe that anyone can sensibly refute R Natan’s arguments in this post.
I dont think he's said anything that requires refutation. He's just regurgitated the same arguments we've all heard for decades. I'm sure it sounds convincing to those already convinced, but to anyone else, sir, its just so much chin music.
Nothing penetrates your thick skull. State your arguments.!
"Thick Skull" is an ad hominem, counselor. Not the way to win friends and influence people.
You can see my arguments supra, infra, and passim.
And you represent the סומכים על הנס argument which decides you can ignore the natural world and everything will be okay. We depend on G-d but we don't rely on "kriat hyam soof" miracles nor are we allowed to.
What are you saying "until they address the serious issues of antisemitism on their campuses"- please clarify
This is a pointless and never ending discussion. The charei claims of Torah protecting and Emunah and Bitochon are just a cover for the real reason that the army service and secular education lead to the abandonment or dilution of the the religious observance and commitment. They don't want to be melted in the couldrom of TZAHL and this is a reasonable position and is the issue that needs to be addressed by finding a way to accomodate them. Everything else is a smoke screen.
Commander Slifkin's appearances on this blog lend support their misgivings.
Correct.
If you agree, then your haranging against charedi avoidance of the army service is misplaced. Without addressing the real problem it gets us nowhere. Both the secular and the charedim are afraid of offering the accomodation that may work.
But as long as they CLAIM that this is their reason for not serving in the IDF, it has to be rebutted.
I think the constructive path is to expose the real issue which is that the charedi society may collapse if they go through the army service and to offer possible solutions that the charedim can accept. Based on the historical expirience their fears are justified.
And yet Dati Leumi people manage it. What does that say about charedi education?
DL start at a lower level to begin with and manage it with a high attrition rate, not something that charedim want to subject themselves to.
There is no Jewish equivalent to the Taliban or Hizbollah that can manage both. The Jewish religion and the genetic code don't seem to be suitable for it.
Hiltop youth
Sweat kids on the fringe.
Lots of Dati Leumi people manage to do it. With their superior background, it should be a piece of cake for charedim.
I would diagnose your smarminess as a way of avoiding dealing with an uncomfortable reality. The Mizrachi has a very serious problem of kids not remaining observant. You know it, I know it, the Gush knows it. That's not triumphalism, the Charedi world has its own problems.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-city-next-to-the-river
The more I see such posts, the more I see what a coping mechanism it is for someone who never served himself. As if he can compensate for his failure by berating others. As though this somehow proves his patriotism. The whole country is united, the actual soldiers themselves we hear nothing but good vibes, but from here nothing has changed, the same old obsession with the Charedim. Way to go.
I'm reminded of the Jews in Egypt, trying to prove they were more Egyptian than the Egyptians, only to wind up getting enslaved. Or the Jews of pre WWII Germany. Or the Jewish communists of Russia. Or the "World of our Fathers" Jews of America. Always the same story. (I wonder if there's some sort of Arab version of NS, blogging about Israeli Arabs needing to show responsibility, community, etc.. I doubt it.)
It's just baloney that "the whole country is united." there is no unity when an entire community that is a gigantic sector of the population does not serve in the IDF.
I've seen - at the least - twenty different videos of actual *soldiers* dancing and hugging charedim and eating with them. I've heard at least the same amount of videos from soldiers and actors and comedians, secular Jews every one of them, talking about the achdus and the unity. If that's not representative of public opinion, then nothing ever is or will be. So you're simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Just like you believe you were wrong when you tried to become charedi, you're wrong here again. Get over it.
Rabbi, I'm sorry, I agree with most of your politics and positions but this statement is simply indefensible.
Yes, they are completely wrong about whether or not their contribution in learning Torah helps defend this country. But you have no right to dismiss their *intentions* so thoroughly.
Unity of purpose, unity of goal, and unity of desire does not require unity of method. My wife and I don't agree on the extent to which (and whether) the IDF should take efforts to avoid killing Palestinian civilians during the war. Does that mean we're not "united" in the necessity of taking down Hamas?
You should apologize. This is needless השמצה and unbecoming of you.
I'll write a separate post addressing your point.
I don't want to be the cause of additional discord. I always look forward to reading what you have to say but in this case I would appreciate if you wait to post it after the war.
וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה לִבְנֵי גָד וְלִבְנֵי רְאוּבֵן הַאַחֵיכֶם יָבֹאוּ לַמִּלְחָמָה וְאַתֶּם תֵּשְׁבוּ פֹה
תנחומא:
וְכֵן אַתְּ מוֹצֵא בִּבְנֵי גָּד וּבְנֵי רְאוּבֵן, שֶׁהָיוּ עֲשִׁירִים הַרְבֵּה וְהָיָה לָהֶם מִקְנֶה גָּדוֹל וְחִבְּבוּ אֶת מָמוֹנָם וְיָשְׁבוּ לָהֶם חוּצָה לָאָרֶץ. לְכָךְ גָּלוּ תְּחִלָּה מִכָּל הַשְּׁבָטִים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: וַיַּגְלֵם לָרְאוּבֵנִי וְלַגָּדִי וְלַחֲצִי שֵׁבֶט הַמְּנַשִּׁי (דה״א ה, כו). וּמִי גָּרַם לָהֶם. עַל שֶׁהִפְרִישׁוּ עַצְמָם מִן אֲחֵיהֶם בִּשְׁבִיל מִקְנֵיהֶם.
Non Chareidim are not risking their lives and don't expect to. What are the parameters? All those who want to and are encouraged to learn in Yeshiva.
A few things: first of all, it's probably true that this whole thing started when there was a smaller number of chareidim, fair point. But I don't really get what you want to suggest. That we should make it lechatchila for some boys to not have the opportunity to study in yeshiva for their formative years? Even those who don't go on to stay in learning forever, we think that these years are still supposed to be al taharos hakodesh. Is that not a value by you? If it isn't your have little say on the matter as a complete outsider.
Second point, which @Joyous will probably make: if you acknowledge the importance of avodas Hashem in all of this, let's make a deal: you guys provide more of the religious-obligation-responsibilities (shmiras shabbos, taharas hamishpacha,etc.) and we'll think about enlisting more people in the army... It's not a moot point or a talking point. It's a real point. Assuming we are doing the lion's share on this front it isn't quite as bad that they are doing the lion's share on that front. This doesn't negate your points but it does or things into our perspective.
Last point, who are you criticizing? The leaders? They disagree with you completely (as we said before). The common men of chareidi society? Any individual has no reason to claim responsibility of he is learning. And if he personally is not learning will enough, his rabbeim are specifically telling and encouraging him to be mischazek right now, which you agree is appropriate.
"we think that these years are still supposed to be al taharos hakodesh. Is that not a value by you?" Sure it's a value. But not as big a value as not being butchered to death. That's why my own son is learning for two years al taharos hakodesh, and then going to the army.
"let's make a deal". You don't get it. If you don't do your part, we all die.
"Last point, who are you criticizing?" Everyone.
I propose to you this thing called Hesder. A version of hesder can be made that works for the charedi population that allows them to meet the needs of the army and still learn in yeshiva for many of their formative years.
The "crucial distinction" you've invented is fiction. A community is nothing but a collection of individuals. Whatever you acknowledge as the right of an individual doesn't simply disappear because other individuals like him also exist.
Excellent analysis in differentiating between community and individuals.
I think the problem with your writing is that it's in English and therefor talks to a very small minority of the country.
Cheers
In that case, I think a permanent Hebrew version of the blog is needed, no?
R u mb?
mb ?
Lol just a guy who always ends off his comments with "cheers" :)
A similar argument could be made about the wholesale exemption given to women of the religious Zionist community.
No. Because they do Sherut Leumi. And their husbands are in combat roles to a much higher degree than the secular community.
Or about chutznikim who don't volunteer.
One thing about Milkhemes Mitzvah; nothing limits the obligation to serve to Jews who are living there.
I think R' Lichtenstein made that point. R' Rakeffet frequently does.
That might well include women as well, at least in the pshat.
Below is what i wrote in early September, and have written blogs and articles elsewhere about it going back further.. seems now that it is more relevant than ever... i do believe it is the right solution for many reasons..
**********************************************************************
For Charedim, I believe there are two equally problematic positions:
(1) not participating in the defence of E"Y (contra State of Israel), which is an unequivocal obligation (Sotah 44);
(2) being exposed to an environment wholly unsuitable to continued Torah study and sincere observance.
It seems there is consensus on the principles for how to resolve this apparent dilemma - to ringfence national service opportunities in a religiously suitable environment that allows for continued Torah study.
The yeshiva hesder movement seems to be successful in allowing for continued Torah study, but not necessarily/always a suitable environment. Charedi units like Netzach Yehudah seem to do a more effective job on both scores but, if i understand correctly, face a challenge in creating an appropriate service culture.
So here's my suggestion. Just like ZAKA and hatzala are independent entities with their own ethos and operating procedure, but work in coordination with MDA and other national health/emergency institutions, so too there could be a charedi/dati defence organisation which is independent of the IDF, with its own ethos and operating procedures, but nonetheless works in close coordination with the IDF.
This in fact was already done when HaMishmar HaEzrachi (Mash'az) was founded in 1974, though it was ultimately incorporated into the IDF.
To make it workable, this could not be simply a parallel IDF, but rather a niche organisation that adds value in some manner where charedim/datim have a comparative advantage.
In my mind, that would involve setting up a Home Guard (there are 11 countries which have), with focus especially on securing habitations and protecting civilian populations in border areas (again emphasised in Gemara) [Note - 23 Oct , i wrote this in September.... tragically prescient, no?]
Units could be based around yeshivot and kollelim, integrate service activities around daily Torah learning schedules, all the while focusing their national service on a Torah priority - defence of E"Y and strengthening its borders - which even a non- or anti-zionist Charedi could agree with (stand to be corrected).
Such an organisation could also create opportunities beyond initial service for a long-term professional career, addressing another political hot-potato
Dear Yerushalmi. I’m going to guess that you don’t have children in the army. So maybe it’s difficult for you to understand that someone like Rabbi Slifkin, who does, and is bothered by this topic when there is no war, is doubly distraught now. Many of us share his feelings on the subject. Jump in when you feel the time is right.
I don't have children in the army - not yet - but it won't be long before I do.
I am well aware of the pain that the double standard causes throughout Israeli society.
But you may have noticed that the protests against the judicial reform have abated. The chanting of "crime minister" has disappeared. With very few exceptions, everybody who opposes this government recognizes that: A) It has failed the people of Israel at a spectacular level, and B) We need to deal with this first, and then we can deal with that.
The situation with the draft should be no different.
How is demanding answers for a public safety failure for all the deaths in group A demeaning to the family members of the victims of group A? It might be uncomfortable of the leaders of group A who had a hand in it not but quite clearly supportive of the victims and their loved ones. There are plenty of Israelis not waiting to criticize the govt for the its failures in dealing with Hamas and with the aftermath.
You don't think non-charedim weren't in pain?
People in pain can say whatever they want.
You had said all this before on numerous occasions. As usual no mention of the real reason that the charedim do not serve in the army or avoid secular studies and no attempt to address it.
Please let us know what you think the "real reason" is. Thanks.
The real reason is that it would harm their way of life, and why should they do that when they can get other people to do it instead.
That's the reason. So what do you suggest? The Chareidim should harm their way of life? It seems you agree that a compromise can't be reached even if they would join. Then why do you blame them? They have a different value system than you, we know that, and you can't change that either.
I've said this to you before, but I remain convinced that there are multiple levels of reasons why charedim do each thing they do, and while each is somewhat true, the real reason is the one on the very bottom, which is the same reason for *everything* they do. In the case of IDF service it works like this:
1. "Bittul Torah." This is one they tell themselves, but they know it won't fly among most Israelis.
2. "We're defending the country by learning." They don't really believe this- or rather, they don't really think about it, and if they did, they wouldn't really believe it- but it's used for gullible outsiders, especially religious ones. Maybe even some secular ones, although to be honest they have nothing to say to those people.
3. "It will drive our kids off the derech." That is, not the charedi derech, but religion, period- to the extent they distinguish the two, which many don't. They of course do not want to admit this one even to themselves, at the very least because (if true, which it may well be) it doesn't speak well of their educational system.
4. The real reason: They still haven't made their peace with Zionism and the State of Israel, things which don't fit into their worldview or their ideas of how things were supposed to play out. (They were supposed to play out with Mashiach being a talmid chacham who would ride in to Sha'ar HaRachamim on a white donkey blowing a shofar. Seriously, that's how we were taught it growing up, even *after* the State had come into existence.) Or, to reduce it to the real reason that explains everything they do: "Nisht fun unzerer." It wasn't our people who did it. (Technically, the real charedi view, like the Satmar, is that even a state created entirely by charedim would be pasul, but I don't doubt the Satmar would have changed his mind if he was declared king.) Why don't they wear tekhelet? They can have a million reasons, but the real one is that it was discovered by a bunch of Modern Orthodox guys from Efrat. And on, and on, and so here.
Two corrections: There are many chareidi Gedolim that gave the state of Israel of being a POSSIBLE lead to the final Geula. They include Rav Chazkel Levinstien, Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz and others. Not all Chareidim are Satmar, but true, they are only hopeful, not convinced.
Techailes was proven from a Torah prospective by Chareidim, and no-one even heard of the academic ones among the lay-population.
Yes, "charedi" gedolim in 1948. Things have hardened a bit since then.
First, I think you mean "perspective." Second, I have no idea what you're talking about. It was re-discovered and re-proved by Religious Zionists, who are well-known. Do you mean it had to be re-proven by "kosher" sources? You've just proven my point.
The two names I quoted lived into the 1970's. My point was that that's not a reason on all Chareidim. Additionally, even those with a negative view on Zionism didn't hold it was forbidden (besides satmar and NT who play no role in the general chareidi society) so if that was the only reason we wouldn't send people out to defend from the dangers? The point is your theory is baseless.
As far as techailes, I didn't say who discovered, it was Chareidim like R tevger and Zilbermans who introduced it to chareidim, and before mizrachim were walking around with it, or any academic articles published. It makes no difference to chareidim who was in the lab at the time it was discovered that it's secretion can turn blue.
And by the way, the real reason why most Chareidim don't wear techailes is for the same reason Rabbi Slifkin doesn't, ironically.
"You guys" and "your Zionism"? You do realize it's *your* Israel as well, right?
No, I will not click on your link.
It means there are a lot of open-minded charedim.
I know that R' Slifkin doesn't wear it. That's entirely unrelated.
Thanks. I know what you think Rabbi Slifkin, I was curious as to what Yakov thinks. As I commented earlier, I think you really "nailed it" in this article Rabbi.
"And why? For the glickliche lifestyle of a secularist, with little Torah, little connection to Mitzvos, sexual licentiousness, and no real morals." No, you idiot. They need to give it up so that we don't all get massacred. (But FYI, it is perfectly possible to create a charedi army framework with Torah, mitzvos, and no sexual licentiousness.)
INDIVIDUALS cannot. The COMMUNITY can create frameworks. Like Hesder. Or Rav Karmi Gross's system.
Do you realize what the chareidi mission statement is? We need gedolei Torah and avodas Hashem, that's it. Everything else is noise. So yes, like any world view, this has some poor side affects, but that doesn't mean we should be bulldozing the entire system. In fact, we should be strengthening those weaknesses within the system and have people take their learning more seriously, not stress other values.
Okay, when we're all being butchered by Palestinians, we'll remind ourselves that this is just a poor side effect of the all-important need to produce Gedolim.
"Everything else is noise."
Dissonance isn't noise.
Oddly, the system has yet to produce a single gadol.
Maybe if every new gadol appointed wasn't over the age of 90, but we have no way of knowing that.
In the real world you must do and then pray and learn.
Too bad the Chareidi individual better adjust and the Yeshivot have a duty to help him do the Mitzvah.
"In response to the first point, someone argued that surely they are simply following their rabbis, and therefore their Torah is learned legitimately, and is of merit."
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And here I was thinking all these years that אין שליח לדבר עבירה!
For good measure, I'll throw in: ?דברי הרב ודברי התלמיד דברי מי שומעין
The fact that this needs to be written and spelled out is hair-pulling agony.
If only Hamas realized all they have to do is sit back 10-20 years for the country to barely function...
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b1ytm57fp
Charedim speaking for themselves.
The Chareidim have a greater asset to motivate them and inspire them to do army 🐕🦺 service, powerful belief in G-d and and his Torah. They may need some support and encouragement from their rabbinic leadership.
I quote headlines again.
Rabbi Breitowitz was asked by the host Ari Wasserman a very loaded question, does he think the fact that secular Jews died on Shabbos/ST reflects on the cilil Hashem of neila in TA
RB responded: the points you're raising may be correct, but I feel very anxious about looking at other people, or other communities, to attribute the spiritual blame to them. Instead I prefer to look at myself and what I can do.
Worthy words that we should all hold by.