You are missing some important implementation practicalities, ones which make a lot of your issues moot.
1. No one wakes up being a posek hador. Like you say about training for army service, that it starts from a young age, here also. We teach our kids about the gedolim; they are the legends who we all try to emulate. We hang their pictures on our walls. We relate stories and impart lessons from them and their teachings. We constantly impress on our kids the single-focused importance of the Torah to your nation. We then send them off to the yeshivos in hopes that they absorb the beauty of Torah first hand and swim in it's depths. This way they are part of this community intimately.
Not everyone will stay in learning, but even those who become zevuluns appreciate the importance of those in learning and allow this continuum, without despising the fact that they are supporting Torah.
If we begin to stress other things this has an obvious detrimental affect on the whole system.
No doubt, like any culture, there are downsides which need to be addressed but this doesn't take away from the importance of the system.
2. The years from 18 till 23 at least are the most formative years of learning. this is when the bachurim get to taste the higher level shiurim and really learn how to dissect a sugya. We wouldn't take this away without extreme circumstances. So even if you manage to address some of the issues - and you may find solutions when it comes to going to work - but the army is just during this interval in a person's life. it's far from simple.
3. Last point, you still need to provide evidence that more people are needed there are able as many reservists in Israel add I'm the entire US (I think the US has like 370k). The Israeli army, as far as numbers and passion is very high. The nationalism is greater than most countries. So do we really need to be mevatel Torah? We are only mevatel Torah when it's truly necessary. Predictions and maybes don't work here.
" this is when the bachurim get to taste the higher level shiurim and really learn how to dissect a sugya. We wouldn't take this away without extreme circumstances."
And yet we don't discourage them from marrying and having a family (כן ירבו) and that age. So no, we don't expect them to be hermits dedicated to nothing but learning. They are expected to bear the burden of all life's responsibilities.
"are needed...necessary"
According to the חזו"א, necessity plays no role in מלחמת מצוה.
"And yet we don't discourage them from marrying and having a family (כן ירבו) and that age" really? don't most wait til 23-24 to start shiduchim?
also far from pashut that this is milchemes mitzva, as i'm sure you're aware. it's a big sugya which i'm not holding in. but you're welcome to give me an exact maaraeh makom of the chazon ish and i'll gladly try to take a look
I will take the liberty of stating my personal opinion here.
I personally agree (כיהודה ועוד לקרא) to Rav Tzvi Yehudah Kook that all yeshiva bochurim should receive a 10–12-year deferral. After that there should be a draft on anyone except the Talmidei Chachamim which Klal Yisroel need, as you admitted here. In fact, it may be very healthy for chareidi society if everyone would be forced to accept on themselves the yoke of either becoming a Talmid Chacham or eventually going to the army.
I guess this position makes me a DL as I am accepting the opinion of Rav Tzvi Yehudah Kook, and according to David Ohsie chareidim would never accept this.
However, I imagine that if chareidim won't accept this it has more to do with temporary practical concerns than long-term ideological ones.
In a few words, they simple don't trust the secular heads of the state and army in their decisions, especially those decisions that have any religious significance. This is not the place to discuss at length all that this entails, especially as I have no intimate knowledge of this subject. This is just my evaluation from across the sea.
However, I will say that this article provides at least one example of this issue. You quote from Rav Hezog that the in his time there was a milchemes mitzva. How is that relevant today? Did Rav Herzog say that every military undertaking by the State of Israel is automatically a milchemes mitzva? And is Rav Herzog's ruling, and your extension of it, binding on all chareidim? And even if every such an undertaking is a milchemes mitzva does that mean that it is also automatically considered pikuach nefesh (and is doche Shabbos etc.)? These are real halachic concerns which you deal with so flippantly.
I pretty much agree with the above 2 comments. To what you cite of Rav Herzog, let me quote the following:
רש"י מסכת סוטה דף מד עמוד ב
אבל במלחמות מצוה - כגון כיבוש ארץ ישראל בימי יהושע הכל יוצאין.
So its the original conquering that it is. I can hear why this may compare to 48 and maybe 67, but nothing else.
The gemara there is pretty clear that warding off attackers is not the same:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת סוטה דף מד עמוד ב -. אמר רבא: מלחמות יהושע לכבש - דברי הכל חובה, מלחמות בית דוד לרווחה - דברי הכל רשות, כי פליגי - למעוטי עובדי כוכבים דלא ליתי עלייהו, מר קרי לה מצוה, ומר קרי רשות; נפקא מינה? לעוסק במצוה שפטור מן המצוה
Meaning that even if warding off goyim is a mitzva, it is for עוסק במצוה פטורים and not comparable to the main מלחמת מצוה , and even this is disputed by the Rabanan.
It seems the Rambam paskens this way as well , not like R Yehuda:
רמב"ם הלכות מלכים פרק ה הלכה א
אין המלך נלחם תחלה אלא מלחמת מצוה, ואי זו היא מלחמת מצוה זו מלחמת שבעה עממים, ומלחמת עמלק, ועזרת ישראל מיד צר שבא עליהם, ואחר כך נלחם במלחמת הרשות והיא המלחמה שנלחם עם שאר העמים כדי להרחיב גבול ישראל ולהרבות בגדולתו ושמעו.
He doesn't mention warding off the enemy as מלחמת מצוה. See לחם משנה who explains the Rambam this way, and that warding off the enemy falls under the category of רשות.
I didn't notice. Anyway, to be fair, the Ramban does say milchemes mitzva does apply at all times - when getting back, EY, which would support Rav Herzog in 48. If we go like the Ramban at all is a מחלוקת הפוסקים. Like I said, any other war other than 67 still doesn't fall into that category, and all would agree with the Rambam in this case.
Rabbi Slifkin, I agree this is not the real reasoning of the charedis, nor is the last one, and I think I know and agree to what you believe is the real reason.
However I think you are mistaken in your handling of Rabbi Herzog's opinion. If he thought "the letter of the halacha" would indeed not allow for anyone to stay and not go to war, Rabbi Herzog would never have "put it aside".
What he really meant (in my opinion) is what every sensible person understands. When we say to "fetch the bride from her chupah and the groom from his feast", we mean: if necessary, the bride and groom being the very last persons we would enlist. I mean, surely even the dati leumis do not call for every last individual to take arms and attack Gaza?
So the question was: are those students of Torah really necessary for the war effort, and rabbi Herzog was of the opinion that saving the Torah from "being forgotten from Israel, for these ones in Israel are the surviving remnant" really was reason enough to "make special arrangements for them", provided the IDF could (and did) manage without them.
Of course you don't need *everyone.* But then you raise the question of who *doesn't* have to go. And to say, "Well, he wears a black hat and/or was born into a certain community, so he doesn't have to serve" is just, well, un-just.
If every single 18-year-old would report, and the army would then say, "Hmmm, you're not in very good physical shape, take a desk job" or "Hmm, you're pretty smart, go into Intelligence" or "Hmmmm, you're an honest-to-goodness pacifist, national service for you,' that would be something else.
Right. So you agree with me the question is not, and has never been about "milchemet mitzvah" or whatever (although according to Rabbi Slifkin it might be in the not-so-distant future) which is at this point as much an excuse as "Torah magna umatzla" is.
The true, real, aching and legitimate issue is a שוויון בנטל one.
Now I'm not a chareidi apologist, although I have the lifestyle, and I don't want to look like I'm dismissing the issue. It is a big problem, and I think a solution must be found asap. But I will still bring up some facts, which migh be food for thought.
1) The "Torato Umanuto" arrangement formally is open to everyone.
2) Some of the best armies in the world have abandoned the draft, and work as professional armies. The draft in Israel is in part an ideological choice, and the dati leumi sector is among the fiercest advocates of it. That means they ideologically want to all go serve in the army.
Well, in Israel, that's what it means (and I already mentioned it to you once). And before this becomes personal, let me tell you in advance I don't care if you think I am a sucker or whatever.
The IDF did not draft me because they don't draft olim with children (and, to be frank, I didn't come here to fight and I would have happily stayed in France over coming here and serve in the army for a few years).
Thanks for confirming what I said. If you don't see it, well, I can't help you.
By the way, the IDF doesn't take anyone over 26, parents or not.
And now I'm beginning to think that you don't have any idea what a "sucker" is. I was going to say that despite your obsession, no one on either "side" in Israel thinks that way, but maybe we're dealing with a language barrier.
Not the ones under constant threat from other countries, or indeed civil war. Furthmore, the moment war does break out, all countries draft. And Israel is in a constant state of war.
Being uncomfortable with the fact that my kids, and those of just about everyone I know, are [literally] putting their lives on the line for you where you're not willing to do the same for me is hardly "petty".
He's a troll. Don't sweat it. He claims to think that basic fairness in sharing the burden of dying for the country is petty. (I don't think that he thinks this in real life, but he wants to upset you).
Kudos to your children, but that's not the issue, and you don't what my opinions on the army are, thank you very much. The precise question is the attempted forcible draft of people against their will. (Leave aside how this could possibly be enforced against so many Israeli Arabs and Charedim, that's a different issue.) It's become quite clear the only reason many oppose Charedim is not because they think its necessary or even valuable, but purely that they shouldn't "get away" (as they see it) with something they can't. FOF. And yes, that's petty.
I think the word is "mentality." And it still isn't. Why don't you go, say, to my friend whose son was killed in service and thinks everyone should serve and tell her she's just suffering from fear of being a freyer.
Exactly. The percentage of elite chareidim exempted should be similar to elite athletes and artists. And they should have to prove themselves, just as athletes have to.
One can interpret הכל הולכים to mean that the king call up anyone to a מלחמת מצווה. If the king gives an exemption thats technically his choice wether or not its a good idea strategically or morally.
This is the best time to surface this issue as the charedim feel palpably how important army service is. God gave us a wake up call - what do you get if there is no Tzahal (as Tzahal took some time to reach some communities in the South)? You get what happened, just like in Europe. אם אין צה"ל אין תורה.
What actually are you saying? That failures in a system prove it unnecessary? Please be clear.
After leaning what גדולי ישראל have revealed about the enemy, (and how the enemy is misunderstood by some of our brothers), I think we need more Torah scholars in the IDF.
Violently ripping people out of their culture and into something they ashore can’t lead to anything good. This is a self solving problem . A coalition will come about that doesn’t need the charaidi parties ( charedi em as in monolith is bigoted speech) . If it is wise it will never force them to serve the state in any way. The issue is people not wanting to support people that won’t work . Economic incentives to charedim and more important to potential employers will cause social anxiety among the non workers and they will work of their own accord. Forcing them to fight is forcing conscientious objectors to fight. Forcing them to work when they are told God doesn’t permit them to work is just cruel . We made this mess for them when we granted the initial exemptions. If yo give people free money what would you expect ? They became dependent. What would most of us do ? Now we have to mitigate what we have done to these fine Jewish people.
You didn't say "some" chareidim or even "many" chareidim. You said "is this the reason why chareidim don't join the army?" If 2000 joined, don't you think that sentence deserves a qualifier? You weren't questioning the joining of the army, you were questioning the reason.
Positive reinforcement goes a long way. When is the last time 2000 chareidim joined the army at once? If you believe this is necessary hishtadlus, you should be applauding this.
If your reaction to 2,000 chareidim joining the army, including two sons of a Shas MK, is "that's not a significant amount and it doesn't show anything about chareidim", you come across as unreasonable, and chareidim come across as flexible and willing and able to change their minds when it becomes necessary. Ie, if the army needs them, they join.
I couldn't find more recent numbers, but a quick google shows that 1,222 chareidim joined the IDF in 2019. That would be nearly a 100% increase, which is quite significant.
I thought the non-chareidim here would protest for the honor of their leaders but I guess they only protest for the kavod of their עמי הארץ. I don't think it is proper Kavod for such great people to speak that way about them. In this case anyway, army was not the issue. There were many Gedolim that this happened to, especially 75 years ago.
True, but the pattern of defection is more pronounced by the DL and is rooted in their world view. The non-charedim are quiet because it is true today as it was true then.
I don't think that it is disrespectful. They want us to follow in their way and we should examine the outcome.
“You don’t have to prove any excellence in Torah study or even any special dedication or commitment to it.“
That seems to be the case whenever anyone Orthodox talks about Torah study in general, as if to say the doing of it is the important thing, and neither quality of effort nor demonstrable success is important.
You're pivoted - as you have so often in life - from the demonstrably false projection that Charedim dont actually believe Torah has protective value, and are instead now arguing quantity and quality. That's good, that's progress. (If you want to cloak yourself in humbleness by admitting mistakes, and I mean REAL mistakes, this would be a good place to start.)
The quality argument is easily dismissed. Nowhere is it said that every one has to be R. Kiva Eiger. There is a concept of giving up if success is not met with after 5 years, but this leads to definitional questions of success. Equally important, it simply begs the very good point already made earlier, of that the IDF should accommodate this obvious partial-solution by allowing Charedim to enter at a later age, rather than 18. Compromise has to come from both sides.
The quantity argument is more complicated. It definitely has some merit, the Charedim have grown in numbers. At the same time, so has the state of Israel itself. I dont know if the proportions of Charedi to general pop. are the same as they were in DBG's day, nor am I sure it makes a difference. But its something to look into, for sure.
Igrot Moshe YD 3:73 writes that it is permitted to hire a female teacher for little children since there's no yichud in our schools which are open to the public. Also, for children under 9 there's no concern that she will become motivated to sin. However, with boys older than 9 there is a concern and she shouldn't be hired unless there is a great extenuating circumstance. Tzitz Eliezer 14:97 agrees that a female shouldn't teach boys above 9.
(From halachapedia)
END QUOTE
If you learn hilchos yichud you'll see the laws of men teaching children and the concern that the mothers will come pick up their children. There are certain situations that are permitted and others that are prohibited.
So a class of 20-50 soldiers being instructed in weaponry in a classroom or in the field violates Yichud? You have a very, very warped and ignorant view of Halacha.
You happen to be right on that, though I'm surprised how you knew that considering your minute knowledge. However, I was not addressing education, but woman in combat or to even hold a gun, and have men follow their military orders. איסורים namely בגד איש, אביזרייהו דעריות and others. I can provide sources but most are ones that don't count for you, like shulchan aruch shach Taz Igros moshe and others. But the one Zionist source I found off the bat is in תורה שבעל פה, חוברת ט"ז, page קג.
A: those sources are prior to modern warfare. Their applicability is not relevant to modern warfare where guns instead of personal sword combat took place.
B: Saying men can’t follow women in combat who are their superiors in training is pure Misogyny…but then I never expected any better from you….
C: in a time of crisis it doesn’t only say a groom leaves his feast but a bride her chuppah. This is most certainly a time of crisis and everyone with skills must participate. Or, would say like the chareidim did for decades a woman in the army is יהרג ואל יעבר, and prefer we be wiped out by our enemies….
A - I provided modern sources too. Of course you didn't bother looking.
B - Classic perversion of your own weakness to think protection of woman is sexist but I wouldn't expect better from you, and as always, I sourced my position from Halacha and you from emotional instinct.
C- If you would check up my sources you'd see that a bride leaving her chuppa means to help the war effort, not combat, like supplying things ect. Anyway, the idea that this is מלחמת מצוה depends on a debate in the Gemara if it is the initial capture of the land or even its protection, so what Rav Herzog said in 1948 doesn't necessarily apply today. Of course you'd say it would, based on your instinct of course.
I think you should open a blog called Emotionalist Judaism.
This comment, and the one immediately above it, would be used by any Charedi [in the extremely unlikely event that one would ever read this] as an example of why they don't take your perspective seriously. Not saying you cant have an opinion, just saying you're not helping your cause.
And kollel, in many cases, turns men into boys. The immaturity of many kollel people is shocking. They live amongst themselves in a closed society, some have all their needs provided for from wealthy family, with no idea how adults are meant to behave. Dressing smartly, the concept of 'personal space', privacy etc, many lack basic social skills.
Queen Elizabeth I once visited a lunatic asylum. One of the inmates said to her 'we are the normal ones, you are the crazies'. She said, "you are right, but we are the majority'.
Seriously speaking, you can compare many of them to the behaviour and middos of serious, respected talmidei chachomim, manhigim, how they talk, b'nachas u"v'chochmohand see the contrast. A genuine ben torah would not be seen with an out of shape hat or ill fitting or dusty clothes.
Nice articulation.
You are missing some important implementation practicalities, ones which make a lot of your issues moot.
1. No one wakes up being a posek hador. Like you say about training for army service, that it starts from a young age, here also. We teach our kids about the gedolim; they are the legends who we all try to emulate. We hang their pictures on our walls. We relate stories and impart lessons from them and their teachings. We constantly impress on our kids the single-focused importance of the Torah to your nation. We then send them off to the yeshivos in hopes that they absorb the beauty of Torah first hand and swim in it's depths. This way they are part of this community intimately.
Not everyone will stay in learning, but even those who become zevuluns appreciate the importance of those in learning and allow this continuum, without despising the fact that they are supporting Torah.
If we begin to stress other things this has an obvious detrimental affect on the whole system.
No doubt, like any culture, there are downsides which need to be addressed but this doesn't take away from the importance of the system.
2. The years from 18 till 23 at least are the most formative years of learning. this is when the bachurim get to taste the higher level shiurim and really learn how to dissect a sugya. We wouldn't take this away without extreme circumstances. So even if you manage to address some of the issues - and you may find solutions when it comes to going to work - but the army is just during this interval in a person's life. it's far from simple.
3. Last point, you still need to provide evidence that more people are needed there are able as many reservists in Israel add I'm the entire US (I think the US has like 370k). The Israeli army, as far as numbers and passion is very high. The nationalism is greater than most countries. So do we really need to be mevatel Torah? We are only mevatel Torah when it's truly necessary. Predictions and maybes don't work here.
" this is when the bachurim get to taste the higher level shiurim and really learn how to dissect a sugya. We wouldn't take this away without extreme circumstances."
And yet we don't discourage them from marrying and having a family (כן ירבו) and that age. So no, we don't expect them to be hermits dedicated to nothing but learning. They are expected to bear the burden of all life's responsibilities.
"are needed...necessary"
According to the חזו"א, necessity plays no role in מלחמת מצוה.
"And yet we don't discourage them from marrying and having a family (כן ירבו) and that age" really? don't most wait til 23-24 to start shiduchim?
also far from pashut that this is milchemes mitzva, as i'm sure you're aware. it's a big sugya which i'm not holding in. but you're welcome to give me an exact maaraeh makom of the chazon ish and i'll gladly try to take a look
"also far from pashut that this is milchemes mitzva,"
Nonsense.
That said I agree with a lot of what your said and I'm not saying it's not an issue
I will take the liberty of stating my personal opinion here.
I personally agree (כיהודה ועוד לקרא) to Rav Tzvi Yehudah Kook that all yeshiva bochurim should receive a 10–12-year deferral. After that there should be a draft on anyone except the Talmidei Chachamim which Klal Yisroel need, as you admitted here. In fact, it may be very healthy for chareidi society if everyone would be forced to accept on themselves the yoke of either becoming a Talmid Chacham or eventually going to the army.
I guess this position makes me a DL as I am accepting the opinion of Rav Tzvi Yehudah Kook, and according to David Ohsie chareidim would never accept this.
However, I imagine that if chareidim won't accept this it has more to do with temporary practical concerns than long-term ideological ones.
In a few words, they simple don't trust the secular heads of the state and army in their decisions, especially those decisions that have any religious significance. This is not the place to discuss at length all that this entails, especially as I have no intimate knowledge of this subject. This is just my evaluation from across the sea.
However, I will say that this article provides at least one example of this issue. You quote from Rav Hezog that the in his time there was a milchemes mitzva. How is that relevant today? Did Rav Herzog say that every military undertaking by the State of Israel is automatically a milchemes mitzva? And is Rav Herzog's ruling, and your extension of it, binding on all chareidim? And even if every such an undertaking is a milchemes mitzva does that mean that it is also automatically considered pikuach nefesh (and is doche Shabbos etc.)? These are real halachic concerns which you deal with so flippantly.
I pretty much agree with the above 2 comments. To what you cite of Rav Herzog, let me quote the following:
רש"י מסכת סוטה דף מד עמוד ב
אבל במלחמות מצוה - כגון כיבוש ארץ ישראל בימי יהושע הכל יוצאין.
So its the original conquering that it is. I can hear why this may compare to 48 and maybe 67, but nothing else.
The gemara there is pretty clear that warding off attackers is not the same:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת סוטה דף מד עמוד ב -. אמר רבא: מלחמות יהושע לכבש - דברי הכל חובה, מלחמות בית דוד לרווחה - דברי הכל רשות, כי פליגי - למעוטי עובדי כוכבים דלא ליתי עלייהו, מר קרי לה מצוה, ומר קרי רשות; נפקא מינה? לעוסק במצוה שפטור מן המצוה
Meaning that even if warding off goyim is a mitzva, it is for עוסק במצוה פטורים and not comparable to the main מלחמת מצוה , and even this is disputed by the Rabanan.
It seems the Rambam paskens this way as well , not like R Yehuda:
רמב"ם הלכות מלכים פרק ה הלכה א
אין המלך נלחם תחלה אלא מלחמת מצוה, ואי זו היא מלחמת מצוה זו מלחמת שבעה עממים, ומלחמת עמלק, ועזרת ישראל מיד צר שבא עליהם, ואחר כך נלחם במלחמת הרשות והיא המלחמה שנלחם עם שאר העמים כדי להרחיב גבול ישראל ולהרבות בגדולתו ושמעו.
He doesn't mention warding off the enemy as מלחמת מצוה. See לחם משנה who explains the Rambam this way, and that warding off the enemy falls under the category of רשות.
I was מציין the לחם משנה in a previous comment
I didn't notice. Anyway, to be fair, the Ramban does say milchemes mitzva does apply at all times - when getting back, EY, which would support Rav Herzog in 48. If we go like the Ramban at all is a מחלוקת הפוסקים. Like I said, any other war other than 67 still doesn't fall into that category, and all would agree with the Rambam in this case.
Rabbi Slifkin, I agree this is not the real reasoning of the charedis, nor is the last one, and I think I know and agree to what you believe is the real reason.
However I think you are mistaken in your handling of Rabbi Herzog's opinion. If he thought "the letter of the halacha" would indeed not allow for anyone to stay and not go to war, Rabbi Herzog would never have "put it aside".
What he really meant (in my opinion) is what every sensible person understands. When we say to "fetch the bride from her chupah and the groom from his feast", we mean: if necessary, the bride and groom being the very last persons we would enlist. I mean, surely even the dati leumis do not call for every last individual to take arms and attack Gaza?
So the question was: are those students of Torah really necessary for the war effort, and rabbi Herzog was of the opinion that saving the Torah from "being forgotten from Israel, for these ones in Israel are the surviving remnant" really was reason enough to "make special arrangements for them", provided the IDF could (and did) manage without them.
Of course you don't need *everyone.* But then you raise the question of who *doesn't* have to go. And to say, "Well, he wears a black hat and/or was born into a certain community, so he doesn't have to serve" is just, well, un-just.
If every single 18-year-old would report, and the army would then say, "Hmmm, you're not in very good physical shape, take a desk job" or "Hmm, you're pretty smart, go into Intelligence" or "Hmmmm, you're an honest-to-goodness pacifist, national service for you,' that would be something else.
Right. So you agree with me the question is not, and has never been about "milchemet mitzvah" or whatever (although according to Rabbi Slifkin it might be in the not-so-distant future) which is at this point as much an excuse as "Torah magna umatzla" is.
The true, real, aching and legitimate issue is a שוויון בנטל one.
Now I'm not a chareidi apologist, although I have the lifestyle, and I don't want to look like I'm dismissing the issue. It is a big problem, and I think a solution must be found asap. But I will still bring up some facts, which migh be food for thought.
1) The "Torato Umanuto" arrangement formally is open to everyone.
2) Some of the best armies in the world have abandoned the draft, and work as professional armies. The draft in Israel is in part an ideological choice, and the dati leumi sector is among the fiercest advocates of it. That means they ideologically want to all go serve in the army.
Handwaves: "has never been about "milchemet mitzvah"
But it has. And it is.
You "live the lifestyle"? How nice. Tell me, in which country do you live said lifestyle?
Well, in Israel, that's what it means (and I already mentioned it to you once). And before this becomes personal, let me tell you in advance I don't care if you think I am a sucker or whatever.
The IDF did not draft me because they don't draft olim with children (and, to be frank, I didn't come here to fight and I would have happily stayed in France over coming here and serve in the army for a few years).
Thanks for confirming what I said. If you don't see it, well, I can't help you.
By the way, the IDF doesn't take anyone over 26, parents or not.
And now I'm beginning to think that you don't have any idea what a "sucker" is. I was going to say that despite your obsession, no one on either "side" in Israel thinks that way, but maybe we're dealing with a language barrier.
I mean like bloodsucker, profiteer, exploiter, leech, parasite, what have you.
Not the ones under constant threat from other countries, or indeed civil war. Furthmore, the moment war does break out, all countries draft. And Israel is in a constant state of war.
Like I said, its all about the FOF. Fear Of Fraiyer.
How petty.
Being uncomfortable with the fact that my kids, and those of just about everyone I know, are [literally] putting their lives on the line for you where you're not willing to do the same for me is hardly "petty".
He's a troll. Don't sweat it. He claims to think that basic fairness in sharing the burden of dying for the country is petty. (I don't think that he thinks this in real life, but he wants to upset you).
Kudos to your children, but that's not the issue, and you don't what my opinions on the army are, thank you very much. The precise question is the attempted forcible draft of people against their will. (Leave aside how this could possibly be enforced against so many Israeli Arabs and Charedim, that's a different issue.) It's become quite clear the only reason many oppose Charedim is not because they think its necessary or even valuable, but purely that they shouldn't "get away" (as they see it) with something they can't. FOF. And yes, that's petty.
Sounds like someone with an outside, stereotyped image of Israelis to me. And it doesn't even make sense.
Not at all. It's the mentaliot.
I think the word is "mentality." And it still isn't. Why don't you go, say, to my friend whose son was killed in service and thinks everyone should serve and tell her she's just suffering from fear of being a freyer.
Exactly. The percentage of elite chareidim exempted should be similar to elite athletes and artists. And they should have to prove themselves, just as athletes have to.
One can interpret הכל הולכים to mean that the king call up anyone to a מלחמת מצווה. If the king gives an exemption thats technically his choice wether or not its a good idea strategically or morally.
this is an important conversation but for another time. Right now we need to pull together as much as we can. Please remove this post.
Maybe pulling together at this time entails that charedim pull together in army service
Why argue about this now? Pls G-d if we survive we can revisit this afterwards. Now we need to love eachother.
Can love each other and discuss the issues simultaneously
This is the best time to surface this issue as the charedim feel palpably how important army service is. God gave us a wake up call - what do you get if there is no Tzahal (as Tzahal took some time to reach some communities in the South)? You get what happened, just like in Europe. אם אין צה"ל אין תורה.
I thought it's only a yeshivish thing to say why God did this or that. I guess it's OK to play God if we can interpret it to fit our agenda.
What actually are you saying? That failures in a system prove it unnecessary? Please be clear.
After leaning what גדולי ישראל have revealed about the enemy, (and how the enemy is misunderstood by some of our brothers), I think we need more Torah scholars in the IDF.
Ephraim, well said.
And we need to train the next set of soldiers now….
Abhore
Violently ripping people out of their culture and into something they ashore can’t lead to anything good. This is a self solving problem . A coalition will come about that doesn’t need the charaidi parties ( charedi em as in monolith is bigoted speech) . If it is wise it will never force them to serve the state in any way. The issue is people not wanting to support people that won’t work . Economic incentives to charedim and more important to potential employers will cause social anxiety among the non workers and they will work of their own accord. Forcing them to fight is forcing conscientious objectors to fight. Forcing them to work when they are told God doesn’t permit them to work is just cruel . We made this mess for them when we granted the initial exemptions. If yo give people free money what would you expect ? They became dependent. What would most of us do ? Now we have to mitigate what we have done to these fine Jewish people.
"Because of the principle that “it is a time to act for God; overturn the law.”"
Interesting. When ר' איסר זלמן מלצר issued his opinion on the matter, he also invoked עת לעשות:
http://www.daattorah.022.co.il/BRPortal/br/P102.jsp?arc=209552
(It would be instructive to find a primary source for the quotation, perhaps one without the ellipsis)
The implication is, that had the Torah world not have been in its post-Holocaust crisis, he may have opposed the exemption.
Didn't 2,000 chareidim just join the a army? So your subtitle is no longer true
Do you know how many charedim did NOT just join the army?
You didn't say "some" chareidim or even "many" chareidim. You said "is this the reason why chareidim don't join the army?" If 2000 joined, don't you think that sentence deserves a qualifier? You weren't questioning the joining of the army, you were questioning the reason.
2000 out of 150,000 is not a significant number in this context
What about contrasted to the past 10 years?
What do you consider a significant number? That's more than 1%. Everyone has to start somewhere.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/generalizations-about-generalizations
Positive reinforcement goes a long way. When is the last time 2000 chareidim joined the army at once? If you believe this is necessary hishtadlus, you should be applauding this.
If your reaction to 2,000 chareidim joining the army, including two sons of a Shas MK, is "that's not a significant amount and it doesn't show anything about chareidim", you come across as unreasonable, and chareidim come across as flexible and willing and able to change their minds when it becomes necessary. Ie, if the army needs them, they join.
I couldn't find more recent numbers, but a quick google shows that 1,222 chareidim joined the IDF in 2019. That would be nearly a 100% increase, which is quite significant.
I'd find it hard to beleive that the 150,000 figure are Male chareidim between the ages 18-25, so its way more than 1%.
Does Rav Herzog have any religious descendants? Rav Uziel?
שיטה אוכלת בניה
I thought the non-chareidim here would protest for the honor of their leaders but I guess they only protest for the kavod of their עמי הארץ. I don't think it is proper Kavod for such great people to speak that way about them. In this case anyway, army was not the issue. There were many Gedolim that this happened to, especially 75 years ago.
True, but the pattern of defection is more pronounced by the DL and is rooted in their world view. The non-charedim are quiet because it is true today as it was true then.
I don't think that it is disrespectful. They want us to follow in their way and we should examine the outcome.
Oh, I thought you meant שיטה אוכלת את בניה was about them specifically.
“You don’t have to prove any excellence in Torah study or even any special dedication or commitment to it.“
That seems to be the case whenever anyone Orthodox talks about Torah study in general, as if to say the doing of it is the important thing, and neither quality of effort nor demonstrable success is important.
You're pivoted - as you have so often in life - from the demonstrably false projection that Charedim dont actually believe Torah has protective value, and are instead now arguing quantity and quality. That's good, that's progress. (If you want to cloak yourself in humbleness by admitting mistakes, and I mean REAL mistakes, this would be a good place to start.)
The quality argument is easily dismissed. Nowhere is it said that every one has to be R. Kiva Eiger. There is a concept of giving up if success is not met with after 5 years, but this leads to definitional questions of success. Equally important, it simply begs the very good point already made earlier, of that the IDF should accommodate this obvious partial-solution by allowing Charedim to enter at a later age, rather than 18. Compromise has to come from both sides.
The quantity argument is more complicated. It definitely has some merit, the Charedim have grown in numbers. At the same time, so has the state of Israel itself. I dont know if the proportions of Charedi to general pop. are the same as they were in DBG's day, nor am I sure it makes a difference. But its something to look into, for sure.
"And they certainly do not want everyone to become religious and learn in yeshivah and be exempt from IDF service and require financial support!"
I don't know. A bunch of people commenting here spout all sorts of "אלה ברכב ואלא בסוסים" nonsense.
The pasuk is nonsense??
The extreme interpretation that dovid hamelech himself didn't follow
Well, clearly you haven't been paying attention to all the snide comments made by charedim here and elsewhere.
"High level." Got it.
You here that, @Test? I thought you said Joyous thinks we don't need the IDF.
I think that the real reason is concern of the Chareidi boys being influenced by the secular soldiers and the presence of women training soldiers.
"Boys"?
The horror….being trained by a woman who has superior skills to them…!!!!!
Yea, something אסור מן הדין for a variety of reasons.
There is NOWHERE in Halacha that education of men by women is assur.
2 minutes on Google:
Igrot Moshe YD 3:73 writes that it is permitted to hire a female teacher for little children since there's no yichud in our schools which are open to the public. Also, for children under 9 there's no concern that she will become motivated to sin. However, with boys older than 9 there is a concern and she shouldn't be hired unless there is a great extenuating circumstance. Tzitz Eliezer 14:97 agrees that a female shouldn't teach boys above 9.
(From halachapedia)
END QUOTE
If you learn hilchos yichud you'll see the laws of men teaching children and the concern that the mothers will come pick up their children. There are certain situations that are permitted and others that are prohibited.
I see…and all those men who have been arrested for child sexual abuse never violated yichud…
Laws of yichud: Even Haezer 22 (from memory, might be 1 or 2 off)
So a class of 20-50 soldiers being instructed in weaponry in a classroom or in the field violates Yichud? You have a very, very warped and ignorant view of Halacha.
You happen to be right on that, though I'm surprised how you knew that considering your minute knowledge. However, I was not addressing education, but woman in combat or to even hold a gun, and have men follow their military orders. איסורים namely בגד איש, אביזרייהו דעריות and others. I can provide sources but most are ones that don't count for you, like shulchan aruch shach Taz Igros moshe and others. But the one Zionist source I found off the bat is in תורה שבעל פה, חוברת ט"ז, page קג.
A: those sources are prior to modern warfare. Their applicability is not relevant to modern warfare where guns instead of personal sword combat took place.
B: Saying men can’t follow women in combat who are their superiors in training is pure Misogyny…but then I never expected any better from you….
C: in a time of crisis it doesn’t only say a groom leaves his feast but a bride her chuppah. This is most certainly a time of crisis and everyone with skills must participate. Or, would say like the chareidim did for decades a woman in the army is יהרג ואל יעבר, and prefer we be wiped out by our enemies….
A - I provided modern sources too. Of course you didn't bother looking.
B - Classic perversion of your own weakness to think protection of woman is sexist but I wouldn't expect better from you, and as always, I sourced my position from Halacha and you from emotional instinct.
C- If you would check up my sources you'd see that a bride leaving her chuppa means to help the war effort, not combat, like supplying things ect. Anyway, the idea that this is מלחמת מצוה depends on a debate in the Gemara if it is the initial capture of the land or even its protection, so what Rav Herzog said in 1948 doesn't necessarily apply today. Of course you'd say it would, based on your instinct of course.
I think you should open a blog called Emotionalist Judaism.
Its explicit in the שולחן ארוך? I thought it was דעת תורה?
בגד איש is in Yoreh Deah קפ"ב
ציץ אליעזר ,אגרות משה וחזון איש write in halachic ruling that this doesn't change even today.
The others are also halachic, but if you know a different opinion let me know.
The דעת תורה you are referring to is שירות לאומי. I wasn't getting involved in that. I am aware many DL Rabbanim approve of it.
Very unlikely these women are going to go after those guys….
This comment, and the one immediately above it, would be used by any Charedi [in the extremely unlikely event that one would ever read this] as an example of why they don't take your perspective seriously. Not saying you cant have an opinion, just saying you're not helping your cause.
Dude. It’s self evident that they take a Halacha that is directed to one situation and twist it to be associated with a non relevant other situation.
It is self evident that you lack awareness of these Halachos and are in no position to opine if they are being twisted.
That's simply not the case.
The fact that you call them boys speaks miles. In israel theyre supposed to be men.
The Army turns boys into men.
And kollel, in many cases, turns men into boys. The immaturity of many kollel people is shocking. They live amongst themselves in a closed society, some have all their needs provided for from wealthy family, with no idea how adults are meant to behave. Dressing smartly, the concept of 'personal space', privacy etc, many lack basic social skills.
Thats more in the US. In israel theyre poor.
I see. You said you learnt in kollel. I guess that makes sense.
I agree most are quite infantile. If it wasn’t for the wealthy support they get they’d be lost in life.
Queen Elizabeth I once visited a lunatic asylum. One of the inmates said to her 'we are the normal ones, you are the crazies'. She said, "you are right, but we are the majority'.
Seriously speaking, you can compare many of them to the behaviour and middos of serious, respected talmidei chachomim, manhigim, how they talk, b'nachas u"v'chochmohand see the contrast. A genuine ben torah would not be seen with an out of shape hat or ill fitting or dusty clothes.
Don't mind test
Their society doesn’t contribute to the general welfare.
You're presented the facts very clearly and articulately
Find myself agreeing with everything you've said
Thought I have to ask the glaring question. Why don't any of the non DL Gedolim issue public declarations stating the same as you?
Who'd listen?