You are missing some important implementation practicalities, ones which make a lot of your issues moot.
1. No one wakes up being a posek hador. Like you say about training for army service, that it starts from a young age, here also. We teach our kids about the gedolim; they are the legends who we all try to emulate. We hang their pictures on our walls. We relate stories and impart lessons from them and their teachings. We constantly impress on our kids the single-focused importance of the Torah to your nation. We then send them off to the yeshivos in hopes that they absorb the beauty of Torah first hand and swim in it's depths. This way they are part of this community intimately.
Not everyone will stay in learning, but even those who become zevuluns appreciate the importance of those in learning and allow this continuum, without despising the fact that they are supporting Torah.
If we begin to stress other things this has an obvious detrimental affect on the whole system.
No doubt, like any culture, there are downsides which need to be addressed but this doesn't take away from the importance of the system.
2. The years from 18 till 23 at least are the most formative years of learning. this is when the bachurim get to taste the higher level shiurim and really learn how to dissect a sugya. We wouldn't take this away without extreme circumstances. So even if you manage to address some of the issues - and you may find solutions when it comes to going to work - but the army is just during this interval in a person's life. it's far from simple.
3. Last point, you still need to provide evidence that more people are needed there are able as many reservists in Israel add I'm the entire US (I think the US has like 370k). The Israeli army, as far as numbers and passion is very high. The nationalism is greater than most countries. So do we really need to be mevatel Torah? We are only mevatel Torah when it's truly necessary. Predictions and maybes don't work here.
" this is when the bachurim get to taste the higher level shiurim and really learn how to dissect a sugya. We wouldn't take this away without extreme circumstances."
And yet we don't discourage them from marrying and having a family (כן ירבו) and that age. So no, we don't expect them to be hermits dedicated to nothing but learning. They are expected to bear the burden of all life's responsibilities.
"are needed...necessary"
According to the חזו"א, necessity plays no role in מלחמת מצוה.
"And yet we don't discourage them from marrying and having a family (כן ירבו) and that age" really? don't most wait til 23-24 to start shiduchim?
also far from pashut that this is milchemes mitzva, as i'm sure you're aware. it's a big sugya which i'm not holding in. but you're welcome to give me an exact maaraeh makom of the chazon ish and i'll gladly try to take a look
“But moreover, when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves. I will demonstrate this in two ways.
First is with regard to numbers…With charedi yeshiva students, on the other hand, the exemption is demanded to be open-ended, not matter how many hundreds of thousands of yeshiva students there are, and no matter what percentage of the population they are.”
How does this demonstrate that when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves?
“Second, and even more powerfully…They want only charedi young men to receive these exemptions (and they prefer not to think about how the growing numbers of such people will indeed threaten the economy and national security).”
I agree with Joyous that is utterly false. Charedim would be thrilled if more DL would learn full time. There are charedi yeshivas that are geared for flip outs from MO and DL where the whole premise is that they will adopt the lifestyle of long-term learning. I suppose charedim don’t really want to make baalei teshuva either, because then there would be fewer chilonim to serve in the army? Charedi BT yeshivas are all phony I guess. You also haven’t provided any proof for this feeling of yours. But more powerfully, if true how does this demonstrate that when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves? You expect them to weaken an already unpopular argument by applying it to many more who are not full time learning?
”Moreover, …You don’t have to prove any excellence in Torah study or even any special dedication or commitment to it. You just have to register in a yeshivah, which is what charedi society wants everyone to do. Nobody in the charedi world is interested in actually checking on who is not learning well and turning them in for army service.”
How does this demonstrate that when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves?
So let me get this straight - UTJ says A but really mean B, and since we can say B doesn't apply today then we can disregard A and moreover we can say it is disingenuous. Brilliant!!
R Herzog's argument is based on Milchemes Mitzvah and that is why he needs eis laasos to override it.
Did anyone in UTJ ever agree to Milchemes Mitzvah? Did they even quote R Herzog? They aren't dealing with a heter for MM that you say doesn't apply anymore. Your analysis is flawed.
Please explain why RNS is not obligated to join the army if it is a milchemes mitzva? He could be a cook or driver- nothing wrong with doing one's part for one's brother in war
This part of your argument is definitely false, 100%
"Second, and even more powerfully, who does it apply to? The charedim are not arguing for dati-leumi (National-Religious) yeshiva students not to serve in the IDF, and they would not try to talk them all out of it. "
Absolutely false. The chareidim actually argue for anybody who wants to be תרתו אומנתו to be exempt. Including you, if you would take it upon yourself learn Torah properly. The idea that chareidim are a hereditary social class is 100% false. It is just you who has decided to put תרתו אומנתו bnei yeshivos into a social class called chareidim, and then argue, completely circularly, that chareidim only want exemptions for chareidim.
"The chareidim actually argue for anybody who wants to be תרתו אומנתו to be exempt." Of course, because that's the only way that they can make it work legally. But there's no way that they would actually want everyone in the country to to take advantage of that!
Ok, so in other words, the chareidim are very wise, practical, rational, and realize that the country needs a military. And they are only arguing for such an egalitarian, non-elitist standard of תרתו אומנתו until such time when there are too many scholars and not enough service members.
I am sure the chareidim are very thankful for your uncharacteristic compliment! But in the end of the day, this part of the post, the most important part of the post is still 100% false, and only reflects your own biases and projections.
"And they are only arguing for such an egalitarian, non-elitist standard of תרתו אומנתו until such time when there are too many scholars and not enough service members." Really? What have you ever seen from anyone in charedi leadership that ever shows an interest in figuring out when this point is, and preparing their society for it?
When have I ever seen Natan Slifkin show a serious interest in figuring out when this point is, and preparing his society for it? Where is a serious scientific analysis of how many soldiers are needed during peacetime, during wartime, in scenario A, in scenario B, where they would be stationed, etc? All I have seen are frantic doomsday predictions based on silly projection of demographic trends into the infinite future. No, we are not close to that point now, and it is foolhardy to try one's hand at prophecy.
It's silly to make a projection that society will collapse based on that, yes. Very, very silly. And as far as I can tell, you have never shown the slightest interest in scientifically analyzing the same thing you demand from chareidi leaders- how many soldiers are needed, when, in what circumstances, etc.
PS Toras Moshe's talmidim all went to give blood. The scholars amongst us will tell us that Hashem considers that mesiras negesh. Ki hadom hu hanefesh and all that.
In other words, learn it to the approval of *your* standards, meaning like a charedi, meaning be a charedi. If you insist on learning Torah like some DL or Sephardi, sorry.
Huh? Plenty of people who disagree with me are learning Torah properly. But when somebody takes a path of learning that denies fundamental aspects of Judaism, or that abandons the Mesorah, or denies the existence of Mesorah in the first place, he is not learning properly.
For example, would you say Christians learn the Torah properly? Another example, somebody said in a shiur that it is possible to interpret that Avraham Avinu never existed, and these parshiyos can be interpreted allegorically. I hope it was just a slip, but if people learn that way consistently, that is not learning properly.
RNS is a believing Jew.You sound like the Chief Prosecutor of the Inquisition.The proper approach is to say that you think that the writer has overstepped the line of acceptiablity regarding to the 13 Principals. I agree that choosing to interpret the Chumash
as allegory is. generally unacceptable. . The question has been raised and some reserve thar for the בריאת העולם and the story in Gan Eden at least partially.
I get it - you have a list of axiomatic principles. If a person is out of alignment with one of these principles, then per force he is not learning Torah properly. And the proof of this is that everyone learning Torah properly is in alignment with these principles.
You gave two here:
1. Jesus is not the messiah and is not divine (or some other Christian belief).
2. Avraham Avinu was a historical person.
Presumably, you've got a long list of these axioms and when you run across someone that it out of alignment with one of them, you put them on your list of heretics (or more kindly "not learning Torah properly"). This conveniently obviates the inconvenient need to engage in debate or even discuss the issue at hand.
Just out of curiosity, how exactly did you determine that RNS and Nachum are not learning Torah properly?
But don't you do the same "convenient" thing? If somebody told you that you ought to wear a tin-foil hat to protect yourself from the mind control of the lizard aliens (and there are people who think that), would you listen to him? Or would you conveniently obviate the inconvenient need to engage in debate or even discuss the issue at hand?
I determined it from reading their writings/comments. For more details about Slifkin, see many posts on our blog.
No it's not. With talking there is no record of what you or your chavrusoh actually said 5 minutes ago. Which is why some of chavrusoh arguing is arguing about what each one actually said. "Ah, I see Maharsha is asking exactly what I asked on tosfos, that you said was a bad question", "No you asked something different" etc etc.
In an online conversation that is not possible. Which is why different obfuscation tactics have to be used.
I will take the liberty of stating my personal opinion here.
I personally agree (כיהודה ועוד לקרא) to Rav Tzvi Yehudah Kook that all yeshiva bochurim should receive a 10–12-year deferral. After that there should be a draft on anyone except the Talmidei Chachamim which Klal Yisroel need, as you admitted here. In fact, it may be very healthy for chareidi society if everyone would be forced to accept on themselves the yoke of either becoming a Talmid Chacham or eventually going to the army.
I guess this position makes me a DL as I am accepting the opinion of Rav Tzvi Yehudah Kook, and according to David Ohsie chareidim would never accept this.
However, I imagine that if chareidim won't accept this it has more to do with temporary practical concerns than long-term ideological ones.
In a few words, they simple don't trust the secular heads of the state and army in their decisions, especially those decisions that have any religious significance. This is not the place to discuss at length all that this entails, especially as I have no intimate knowledge of this subject. This is just my evaluation from across the sea.
However, I will say that this article provides at least one example of this issue. You quote from Rav Hezog that the in his time there was a milchemes mitzva. How is that relevant today? Did Rav Herzog say that every military undertaking by the State of Israel is automatically a milchemes mitzva? And is Rav Herzog's ruling, and your extension of it, binding on all chareidim? And even if every such an undertaking is a milchemes mitzva does that mean that it is also automatically considered pikuach nefesh (and is doche Shabbos etc.)? These are real halachic concerns which you deal with so flippantly.
I pretty much agree with the above 2 comments. To what you cite of Rav Herzog, let me quote the following:
רש"י מסכת סוטה דף מד עמוד ב
אבל במלחמות מצוה - כגון כיבוש ארץ ישראל בימי יהושע הכל יוצאין.
So its the original conquering that it is. I can hear why this may compare to 48 and maybe 67, but nothing else.
The gemara there is pretty clear that warding off attackers is not the same:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת סוטה דף מד עמוד ב -. אמר רבא: מלחמות יהושע לכבש - דברי הכל חובה, מלחמות בית דוד לרווחה - דברי הכל רשות, כי פליגי - למעוטי עובדי כוכבים דלא ליתי עלייהו, מר קרי לה מצוה, ומר קרי רשות; נפקא מינה? לעוסק במצוה שפטור מן המצוה
Meaning that even if warding off goyim is a mitzva, it is for עוסק במצוה פטורים and not comparable to the main מלחמת מצוה , and even this is disputed by the Rabanan.
It seems the Rambam paskens this way as well , not like R Yehuda:
רמב"ם הלכות מלכים פרק ה הלכה א
אין המלך נלחם תחלה אלא מלחמת מצוה, ואי זו היא מלחמת מצוה זו מלחמת שבעה עממים, ומלחמת עמלק, ועזרת ישראל מיד צר שבא עליהם, ואחר כך נלחם במלחמת הרשות והיא המלחמה שנלחם עם שאר העמים כדי להרחיב גבול ישראל ולהרבות בגדולתו ושמעו.
He doesn't mention warding off the enemy as מלחמת מצוה. See לחם משנה who explains the Rambam this way, and that warding off the enemy falls under the category of רשות.
I didn't notice. Anyway, to be fair, the Ramban does say milchemes mitzva does apply at all times - when getting back, EY, which would support Rav Herzog in 48. If we go like the Ramban at all is a מחלוקת הפוסקים. Like I said, any other war other than 67 still doesn't fall into that category, and all would agree with the Rambam in this case.
Your other arguments are also deeply erroneous. As Jew Well pointed out, this has nothing to do with the halacha of milchemes mitzvah, because if it was the level of pulling a bride from her chuppah, 40-something-year-old museum directors would certainly not be exempt. So let's leave halacha aside for a moment, it seems you are arguing that we don't need 150,000 people to learn Torah. But you never say how many we do need, only "a relatively small number of people". That is not a number. That is not an analysis. Parameters please.
The chareidim argue that we need many thousands of people learning, especially nowadays to counter the secularist influence. They also argue that these student's merits assist with the war effort, which I believe you possibly agree with in principle (although you seemed extremely confused in many previous posts). Where is your analysis showing how many are actually necessary? You don't have one, and "a relatively small number of people" is no analysis at all, so you have no argument.
The fool enters the factory and asks the engineer what the purpose of a certain screw is. He has no idea of how the factory works, what needs it has, and what criteria are used to decide matters. Yet he asks about a single detail.
The question, "why do we need so many Lomdim to guarantee the future of the Torah" is easily answered by someone who devotes his life to learning. But the one who knows little about Torah, has spent more time and effort studying zoology and nonsense than Gemara, is like the fool who asks about a certain screw without knowing how the system works.
And that refers to the person who merely asks the question. The idiot who believes that his question is correct and there is no answer, and everyone else got it wrong, is just a plain moron, nobody worth answering.
You're demonstrating that the ideology you support (whatever it is as it doesn't sound familiar except on this comment section) has no claim to objective truth. You are stating that only those who have bought into the ideology can understand why it is correct and anyone who questions it is ipso facto foolish for even asking. This inures the ideology form ever being tested or even discussed in any objective manner. This puts your ideology, (if you were correct), on the same footing as flat eartherism. I'm not sure why people would waste time with it unless they had already drunk the kool-aid.
You can call it what you want David, but he's not wrong. Learning shas and poskim is really, really difficult. We chareidim are a tiny fraction of people on this pale blue dot and even if we are growing, there really is not so many of us.
We also strongly believe that God is most present within this mesorah which we live and breathe when we learn through a sugya which begins with the work of the balei hamishna and gemara, our greatest sages, through the rishonim and acharonim all the way to the modern day poskim. In this world God and His word live (daled amos shel halacha). Which is basically our only fight against the increasingly cold agnostic and atheistic western world. This is not a mere side point to Judaism. It is Judaism.
I'm not doubting the value or difficulty of learning. I actually have done it and do it myself. But there is a whole sector of the country which values learning just as much and is now involved in combat in Gaza. I have no monopoly on the truth and who it's always possible that the Charedim are right about some things where I would disagree. That is not Zichron's argument.
Zichron is claiming that one is a fool for even questioning some aspect of what he imagines Charedi ideology to be. I've listened to Charedi Rabbis defend the draft deferral and while I don't agree with their arguments, none of them have ever claimed "Only us charedim can understand, you fool".
I'm also going to point out two other things.
1) I've studied some science and math and those subjects contain areas where you sometimes have to study for years at an advanced level to even understand the terminology. But they never fall back to being claiming that only the science "gedolim" can really understand or decide something. In science, all assumptions can (and have been) overturned with new evidence and in math everything is proven with a proof that anyone is free to check for errors. So pointing out the difficulty of subject doesn't have anything to do with relying on the "greats". That is an independent construct.
2) Related to the above, *everyone* errs and the more isolated one is from outside knowledge, the greater the errors. One of the wonderful things about Charedi culture is the emphasis on intellectual pursuit. It is a community of scholars. (It's overboard in those cultures where kids can't even play sports, but that is a side point). But the downside is that the pursuit happens within a box that excludes lots of sources of knowledge including even other Torah greats with the wrong ideology, let alone lots of secular knowledge which has been built up with the same level of effort and extreme talent as Torah study.
So, e.g., when R Elchonon Wasserman makes his argument to "prove" that the non-religious are all hedonists, he includes a form of the argument by design seemingly without realizing what it is or it has a long and by now checkered history. And he cites it without even mentioning the problems evolution raises to it let alone dealing with them. Nor does he actually bother to examine whether or not it's really true that non-religious are hedonists. He's in his box and that's all he has to deal with. I was very interested to read inside what he wrote in those letters which everyone has heard about and when I did, I came away very disappointed as even I as an amateur could see that the argument is not well-developed.
Torah is not like science or math but is closer to philosophy that is based on received wisdom from Sinai and the prophets. It requires kedushah, yiras shamayim, siyata dishmaya, and years and years of immersive learning. Not like science and math at all. Nevertheless, the same thing can happen with science and math, you can argue with some people about round vs. flat earth until your face turns blue. Slifkin (and I believe you) are very much the Torah version of flat earthers.
Based on my experiences, I believe R' Elchonon is definitely very close to the truth. Maybe you had different experiences.
"Based on my experiences, I believe R' Elchonon is definitely very close to the truth." Maybe he is and may be he isn't. That letter is fails to even recognize the fundamental well-known issues in the argument he is invoking let along grapple with them.
No doubt you also believe ALL goyim are stupid. Or they ALL live merely for their holidays and other gashmius. All the stuff we were taught in cheider about 'goyim'.
but Torah to a chareidi is much more than an intellectual pursuit, as I'm sure you're aware. It's a way of life, a philosophy and more importantly, the word of God - a connection to Him and His will. this takes years of training to appreciate. and many people have opinions when they haven't been immersed long enough. they're still struggling with how to piece a rashi and a tos with a rashba and a ketzos but they already "know" that anyone can make up whatever they want because learning is a free for all and chavrusas just talk past each other and there's no coherency in the sugyos that our leaders have spent their lives on for millenium...
fwiw, I would argue with point 1 that quantum mechanics, to pick one example is only truly understood through its math which requires a high degree of understanding in the field otherwise its just words that hardly describe the essence of the subject. Politics are definitely like that. everyone has fully formed opinions on the most complicated subjects which they know nothing about. i'd say it's pretty similar here, but that would require a longer discussion.
reb Elchanan's point has been disputed, though i personally agree from personal experience. biases are really, really strong it's scary. but no for now
Rabbi Slifkin, I agree this is not the real reasoning of the charedis, nor is the last one, and I think I know and agree to what you believe is the real reason.
However I think you are mistaken in your handling of Rabbi Herzog's opinion. If he thought "the letter of the halacha" would indeed not allow for anyone to stay and not go to war, Rabbi Herzog would never have "put it aside".
What he really meant (in my opinion) is what every sensible person understands. When we say to "fetch the bride from her chupah and the groom from his feast", we mean: if necessary, the bride and groom being the very last persons we would enlist. I mean, surely even the dati leumis do not call for every last individual to take arms and attack Gaza?
So the question was: are those students of Torah really necessary for the war effort, and rabbi Herzog was of the opinion that saving the Torah from "being forgotten from Israel, for these ones in Israel are the surviving remnant" really was reason enough to "make special arrangements for them", provided the IDF could (and did) manage without them.
Of course you don't need *everyone.* But then you raise the question of who *doesn't* have to go. And to say, "Well, he wears a black hat and/or was born into a certain community, so he doesn't have to serve" is just, well, un-just.
If every single 18-year-old would report, and the army would then say, "Hmmm, you're not in very good physical shape, take a desk job" or "Hmm, you're pretty smart, go into Intelligence" or "Hmmmm, you're an honest-to-goodness pacifist, national service for you,' that would be something else.
Right. So you agree with me the question is not, and has never been about "milchemet mitzvah" or whatever (although according to Rabbi Slifkin it might be in the not-so-distant future) which is at this point as much an excuse as "Torah magna umatzla" is.
The true, real, aching and legitimate issue is a שוויון בנטל one.
Now I'm not a chareidi apologist, although I have the lifestyle, and I don't want to look like I'm dismissing the issue. It is a big problem, and I think a solution must be found asap. But I will still bring up some facts, which migh be food for thought.
1) The "Torato Umanuto" arrangement formally is open to everyone.
2) Some of the best armies in the world have abandoned the draft, and work as professional armies. The draft in Israel is in part an ideological choice, and the dati leumi sector is among the fiercest advocates of it. That means they ideologically want to all go serve in the army.
Well, in Israel, that's what it means (and I already mentioned it to you once). And before this becomes personal, let me tell you in advance I don't care if you think I am a sucker or whatever.
The IDF did not draft me because they don't draft olim with children (and, to be frank, I didn't come here to fight and I would have happily stayed in France over coming here and serve in the army for a few years).
Thanks for confirming what I said. If you don't see it, well, I can't help you.
By the way, the IDF doesn't take anyone over 26, parents or not.
And now I'm beginning to think that you don't have any idea what a "sucker" is. I was going to say that despite your obsession, no one on either "side" in Israel thinks that way, but maybe we're dealing with a language barrier.
Not the ones under constant threat from other countries, or indeed civil war. Furthmore, the moment war does break out, all countries draft. And Israel is in a constant state of war.
Being uncomfortable with the fact that my kids, and those of just about everyone I know, are [literally] putting their lives on the line for you where you're not willing to do the same for me is hardly "petty".
You should know that he actually is willing to do the same for you.
As I told you before, thank you for your kids' service. John Adams wrote: “I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.” But your kids and all religious soldiers are fighting for something far, far greater. Incomparably greater, in fact.
He's a troll. Don't sweat it. He claims to think that basic fairness in sharing the burden of dying for the country is petty. (I don't think that he thinks this in real life, but he wants to upset you).
Kudos to your children, but that's not the issue, and you don't what my opinions on the army are, thank you very much. The precise question is the attempted forcible draft of people against their will. (Leave aside how this could possibly be enforced against so many Israeli Arabs and Charedim, that's a different issue.) It's become quite clear the only reason many oppose Charedim is not because they think its necessary or even valuable, but purely that they shouldn't "get away" (as they see it) with something they can't. FOF. And yes, that's petty.
I think the word is "mentality." And it still isn't. Why don't you go, say, to my friend whose son was killed in service and thinks everyone should serve and tell her she's just suffering from fear of being a freyer.
Exactly. The percentage of elite chareidim exempted should be similar to elite athletes and artists. And they should have to prove themselves, just as athletes have to.
One can interpret הכל הולכים to mean that the king call up anyone to a מלחמת מצווה. If the king gives an exemption thats technically his choice wether or not its a good idea strategically or morally.
This is the best time to surface this issue as the charedim feel palpably how important army service is. God gave us a wake up call - what do you get if there is no Tzahal (as Tzahal took some time to reach some communities in the South)? You get what happened, just like in Europe. אם אין צה"ל אין תורה.
"what do you get if there is no Tzahal (as Tzahal took some time to reach some communities in the South)? You get what happened, just like in Europe. אם אין צה"ל אין תורה."
There wasn't 'no tzahal.' If anything, your own argument works against you.
"Three more towers were seen smoking hours later and gaps opened in the border fence, allowing a total of 1,500 Hamas invaders to cross into Israel. They overran an army base, which inexplicably housed several commanders, killing and taking hostages. Soldiers were killed in their beds; others were killed in their underwear. The resulting loss of a forward command structure combined with the loss of the communication network that made central command screens blank also prevented a concerted counterattack and the ability of soldiers to request that Tel Aviv scramble air support. Attack planes, based only minutes away, would not arrive for hours, despite social media immediately documenting the attacks."
What actually are you saying? That failures in a system prove it unnecessary? Please be clear.
After leaning what גדולי ישראל have revealed about the enemy, (and how the enemy is misunderstood by some of our brothers), I think we need more Torah scholars in the IDF.
"What actually are you saying? That failures in a system prove it unnecessary? Please be clear."
I was responding to a comment about what the attack on Oct 7th proved. I observed that it didn't prove the need for more soldiers.
"After leaning what גדולי ישראל have revealed about the enemy, (and how the enemy is misunderstood by some of our brothers), I think we need more Torah scholars in the IDF."
I honestly have no clue what you're saying. I'm all in favor of increasing torah scholars generally, though. Especially if it involves replacing dumb IDF marching bands with shiurim.
Violently ripping people out of their culture and into something they ashore can’t lead to anything good. This is a self solving problem . A coalition will come about that doesn’t need the charaidi parties ( charedi em as in monolith is bigoted speech) . If it is wise it will never force them to serve the state in any way. The issue is people not wanting to support people that won’t work . Economic incentives to charedim and more important to potential employers will cause social anxiety among the non workers and they will work of their own accord. Forcing them to fight is forcing conscientious objectors to fight. Forcing them to work when they are told God doesn’t permit them to work is just cruel . We made this mess for them when we granted the initial exemptions. If yo give people free money what would you expect ? They became dependent. What would most of us do ? Now we have to mitigate what we have done to these fine Jewish people.
You didn't say "some" chareidim or even "many" chareidim. You said "is this the reason why chareidim don't join the army?" If 2000 joined, don't you think that sentence deserves a qualifier? You weren't questioning the joining of the army, you were questioning the reason.
Positive reinforcement goes a long way. When is the last time 2000 chareidim joined the army at once? If you believe this is necessary hishtadlus, you should be applauding this.
If your reaction to 2,000 chareidim joining the army, including two sons of a Shas MK, is "that's not a significant amount and it doesn't show anything about chareidim", you come across as unreasonable, and chareidim come across as flexible and willing and able to change their minds when it becomes necessary. Ie, if the army needs them, they join.
I couldn't find more recent numbers, but a quick google shows that 1,222 chareidim joined the IDF in 2019. That would be nearly a 100% increase, which is quite significant.
Nice articulation.
You are missing some important implementation practicalities, ones which make a lot of your issues moot.
1. No one wakes up being a posek hador. Like you say about training for army service, that it starts from a young age, here also. We teach our kids about the gedolim; they are the legends who we all try to emulate. We hang their pictures on our walls. We relate stories and impart lessons from them and their teachings. We constantly impress on our kids the single-focused importance of the Torah to your nation. We then send them off to the yeshivos in hopes that they absorb the beauty of Torah first hand and swim in it's depths. This way they are part of this community intimately.
Not everyone will stay in learning, but even those who become zevuluns appreciate the importance of those in learning and allow this continuum, without despising the fact that they are supporting Torah.
If we begin to stress other things this has an obvious detrimental affect on the whole system.
No doubt, like any culture, there are downsides which need to be addressed but this doesn't take away from the importance of the system.
2. The years from 18 till 23 at least are the most formative years of learning. this is when the bachurim get to taste the higher level shiurim and really learn how to dissect a sugya. We wouldn't take this away without extreme circumstances. So even if you manage to address some of the issues - and you may find solutions when it comes to going to work - but the army is just during this interval in a person's life. it's far from simple.
3. Last point, you still need to provide evidence that more people are needed there are able as many reservists in Israel add I'm the entire US (I think the US has like 370k). The Israeli army, as far as numbers and passion is very high. The nationalism is greater than most countries. So do we really need to be mevatel Torah? We are only mevatel Torah when it's truly necessary. Predictions and maybes don't work here.
" this is when the bachurim get to taste the higher level shiurim and really learn how to dissect a sugya. We wouldn't take this away without extreme circumstances."
And yet we don't discourage them from marrying and having a family (כן ירבו) and that age. So no, we don't expect them to be hermits dedicated to nothing but learning. They are expected to bear the burden of all life's responsibilities.
"are needed...necessary"
According to the חזו"א, necessity plays no role in מלחמת מצוה.
"And yet we don't discourage them from marrying and having a family (כן ירבו) and that age" really? don't most wait til 23-24 to start shiduchim?
also far from pashut that this is milchemes mitzva, as i'm sure you're aware. it's a big sugya which i'm not holding in. but you're welcome to give me an exact maaraeh makom of the chazon ish and i'll gladly try to take a look
"also far from pashut that this is milchemes mitzva,"
Nonsense.
That said I agree with a lot of what your said and I'm not saying it's not an issue
“But moreover, when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves. I will demonstrate this in two ways.
First is with regard to numbers…With charedi yeshiva students, on the other hand, the exemption is demanded to be open-ended, not matter how many hundreds of thousands of yeshiva students there are, and no matter what percentage of the population they are.”
How does this demonstrate that when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves?
“Second, and even more powerfully…They want only charedi young men to receive these exemptions (and they prefer not to think about how the growing numbers of such people will indeed threaten the economy and national security).”
I agree with Joyous that is utterly false. Charedim would be thrilled if more DL would learn full time. There are charedi yeshivas that are geared for flip outs from MO and DL where the whole premise is that they will adopt the lifestyle of long-term learning. I suppose charedim don’t really want to make baalei teshuva either, because then there would be fewer chilonim to serve in the army? Charedi BT yeshivas are all phony I guess. You also haven’t provided any proof for this feeling of yours. But more powerfully, if true how does this demonstrate that when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves? You expect them to weaken an already unpopular argument by applying it to many more who are not full time learning?
”Moreover, …You don’t have to prove any excellence in Torah study or even any special dedication or commitment to it. You just have to register in a yeshivah, which is what charedi society wants everyone to do. Nobody in the charedi world is interested in actually checking on who is not learning well and turning them in for army service.”
How does this demonstrate that when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves?
So let me get this straight - UTJ says A but really mean B, and since we can say B doesn't apply today then we can disregard A and moreover we can say it is disingenuous. Brilliant!!
R Herzog's argument is based on Milchemes Mitzvah and that is why he needs eis laasos to override it.
Did anyone in UTJ ever agree to Milchemes Mitzvah? Did they even quote R Herzog? They aren't dealing with a heter for MM that you say doesn't apply anymore. Your analysis is flawed.
Please explain why RNS is not obligated to join the army if it is a milchemes mitzva? He could be a cook or driver- nothing wrong with doing one's part for one's brother in war
This part of your argument is definitely false, 100%
"Second, and even more powerfully, who does it apply to? The charedim are not arguing for dati-leumi (National-Religious) yeshiva students not to serve in the IDF, and they would not try to talk them all out of it. "
Absolutely false. The chareidim actually argue for anybody who wants to be תרתו אומנתו to be exempt. Including you, if you would take it upon yourself learn Torah properly. The idea that chareidim are a hereditary social class is 100% false. It is just you who has decided to put תרתו אומנתו bnei yeshivos into a social class called chareidim, and then argue, completely circularly, that chareidim only want exemptions for chareidim.
"The chareidim actually argue for anybody who wants to be תרתו אומנתו to be exempt." Of course, because that's the only way that they can make it work legally. But there's no way that they would actually want everyone in the country to to take advantage of that!
Ok, so in other words, the chareidim are very wise, practical, rational, and realize that the country needs a military. And they are only arguing for such an egalitarian, non-elitist standard of תרתו אומנתו until such time when there are too many scholars and not enough service members.
I am sure the chareidim are very thankful for your uncharacteristic compliment! But in the end of the day, this part of the post, the most important part of the post is still 100% false, and only reflects your own biases and projections.
"And they are only arguing for such an egalitarian, non-elitist standard of תרתו אומנתו until such time when there are too many scholars and not enough service members." Really? What have you ever seen from anyone in charedi leadership that ever shows an interest in figuring out when this point is, and preparing their society for it?
When have I ever seen Natan Slifkin show a serious interest in figuring out when this point is, and preparing his society for it? Where is a serious scientific analysis of how many soldiers are needed during peacetime, during wartime, in scenario A, in scenario B, where they would be stationed, etc? All I have seen are frantic doomsday predictions based on silly projection of demographic trends into the infinite future. No, we are not close to that point now, and it is foolhardy to try one's hand at prophecy.
It's silly to project that, because charedim have many more children than non-charedim, that they will eventually become a majority of the population?
It's silly to make a projection that society will collapse based on that, yes. Very, very silly. And as far as I can tell, you have never shown the slightest interest in scientifically analyzing the same thing you demand from chareidi leaders- how many soldiers are needed, when, in what circumstances, etc.
Whataboutism.
PS Toras Moshe's talmidim all went to give blood. The scholars amongst us will tell us that Hashem considers that mesiras negesh. Ki hadom hu hanefesh and all that.
So you are assuming...
"learn Torah properly"
In other words, learn it to the approval of *your* standards, meaning like a charedi, meaning be a charedi. If you insist on learning Torah like some DL or Sephardi, sorry.
You just let it slip there.
It wasn't a slip.
Plenty of DL and Sephardim learn Torah properly, sorry. But definitely not him, and based on prior experience with you, not you either.
Sounds like anyone that disagrees with your is per force not learning Torah properly.
Huh? Plenty of people who disagree with me are learning Torah properly. But when somebody takes a path of learning that denies fundamental aspects of Judaism, or that abandons the Mesorah, or denies the existence of Mesorah in the first place, he is not learning properly.
For example, would you say Christians learn the Torah properly? Another example, somebody said in a shiur that it is possible to interpret that Avraham Avinu never existed, and these parshiyos can be interpreted allegorically. I hope it was just a slip, but if people learn that way consistently, that is not learning properly.
RNS is a believing Jew.You sound like the Chief Prosecutor of the Inquisition.The proper approach is to say that you think that the writer has overstepped the line of acceptiablity regarding to the 13 Principals. I agree that choosing to interpret the Chumash
as allegory is. generally unacceptable. . The question has been raised and some reserve thar for the בריאת העולם and the story in Gan Eden at least partially.
I get it - you have a list of axiomatic principles. If a person is out of alignment with one of these principles, then per force he is not learning Torah properly. And the proof of this is that everyone learning Torah properly is in alignment with these principles.
You gave two here:
1. Jesus is not the messiah and is not divine (or some other Christian belief).
2. Avraham Avinu was a historical person.
Presumably, you've got a long list of these axioms and when you run across someone that it out of alignment with one of them, you put them on your list of heretics (or more kindly "not learning Torah properly"). This conveniently obviates the inconvenient need to engage in debate or even discuss the issue at hand.
Just out of curiosity, how exactly did you determine that RNS and Nachum are not learning Torah properly?
But don't you do the same "convenient" thing? If somebody told you that you ought to wear a tin-foil hat to protect yourself from the mind control of the lizard aliens (and there are people who think that), would you listen to him? Or would you conveniently obviate the inconvenient need to engage in debate or even discuss the issue at hand?
I determined it from reading their writings/comments. For more details about Slifkin, see many posts on our blog.
Your experience with me? You've never met me, and never talked in learning with me.
Sure I have. An online conversation is very similar to talking in learning, for our purposes.
No it's not. With talking there is no record of what you or your chavrusoh actually said 5 minutes ago. Which is why some of chavrusoh arguing is arguing about what each one actually said. "Ah, I see Maharsha is asking exactly what I asked on tosfos, that you said was a bad question", "No you asked something different" etc etc.
In an online conversation that is not possible. Which is why different obfuscation tactics have to be used.
If you learned like that past 10th grade I would be surprised if you got anywhere
What a sad comment:'(
The Chareidi demand is exemption for all those in yeshiva while it pushes for all Chareidim to be in yeshiva.
What does that have to do with the circular and false argument that chareidim only want to exempt chareidim?
You're right. It sounds like speculation
I will take the liberty of stating my personal opinion here.
I personally agree (כיהודה ועוד לקרא) to Rav Tzvi Yehudah Kook that all yeshiva bochurim should receive a 10–12-year deferral. After that there should be a draft on anyone except the Talmidei Chachamim which Klal Yisroel need, as you admitted here. In fact, it may be very healthy for chareidi society if everyone would be forced to accept on themselves the yoke of either becoming a Talmid Chacham or eventually going to the army.
I guess this position makes me a DL as I am accepting the opinion of Rav Tzvi Yehudah Kook, and according to David Ohsie chareidim would never accept this.
However, I imagine that if chareidim won't accept this it has more to do with temporary practical concerns than long-term ideological ones.
In a few words, they simple don't trust the secular heads of the state and army in their decisions, especially those decisions that have any religious significance. This is not the place to discuss at length all that this entails, especially as I have no intimate knowledge of this subject. This is just my evaluation from across the sea.
However, I will say that this article provides at least one example of this issue. You quote from Rav Hezog that the in his time there was a milchemes mitzva. How is that relevant today? Did Rav Herzog say that every military undertaking by the State of Israel is automatically a milchemes mitzva? And is Rav Herzog's ruling, and your extension of it, binding on all chareidim? And even if every such an undertaking is a milchemes mitzva does that mean that it is also automatically considered pikuach nefesh (and is doche Shabbos etc.)? These are real halachic concerns which you deal with so flippantly.
I pretty much agree with the above 2 comments. To what you cite of Rav Herzog, let me quote the following:
רש"י מסכת סוטה דף מד עמוד ב
אבל במלחמות מצוה - כגון כיבוש ארץ ישראל בימי יהושע הכל יוצאין.
So its the original conquering that it is. I can hear why this may compare to 48 and maybe 67, but nothing else.
The gemara there is pretty clear that warding off attackers is not the same:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת סוטה דף מד עמוד ב -. אמר רבא: מלחמות יהושע לכבש - דברי הכל חובה, מלחמות בית דוד לרווחה - דברי הכל רשות, כי פליגי - למעוטי עובדי כוכבים דלא ליתי עלייהו, מר קרי לה מצוה, ומר קרי רשות; נפקא מינה? לעוסק במצוה שפטור מן המצוה
Meaning that even if warding off goyim is a mitzva, it is for עוסק במצוה פטורים and not comparable to the main מלחמת מצוה , and even this is disputed by the Rabanan.
It seems the Rambam paskens this way as well , not like R Yehuda:
רמב"ם הלכות מלכים פרק ה הלכה א
אין המלך נלחם תחלה אלא מלחמת מצוה, ואי זו היא מלחמת מצוה זו מלחמת שבעה עממים, ומלחמת עמלק, ועזרת ישראל מיד צר שבא עליהם, ואחר כך נלחם במלחמת הרשות והיא המלחמה שנלחם עם שאר העמים כדי להרחיב גבול ישראל ולהרבות בגדולתו ושמעו.
He doesn't mention warding off the enemy as מלחמת מצוה. See לחם משנה who explains the Rambam this way, and that warding off the enemy falls under the category of רשות.
I was מציין the לחם משנה in a previous comment
I didn't notice. Anyway, to be fair, the Ramban does say milchemes mitzva does apply at all times - when getting back, EY, which would support Rav Herzog in 48. If we go like the Ramban at all is a מחלוקת הפוסקים. Like I said, any other war other than 67 still doesn't fall into that category, and all would agree with the Rambam in this case.
Your other arguments are also deeply erroneous. As Jew Well pointed out, this has nothing to do with the halacha of milchemes mitzvah, because if it was the level of pulling a bride from her chuppah, 40-something-year-old museum directors would certainly not be exempt. So let's leave halacha aside for a moment, it seems you are arguing that we don't need 150,000 people to learn Torah. But you never say how many we do need, only "a relatively small number of people". That is not a number. That is not an analysis. Parameters please.
The chareidim argue that we need many thousands of people learning, especially nowadays to counter the secularist influence. They also argue that these student's merits assist with the war effort, which I believe you possibly agree with in principle (although you seemed extremely confused in many previous posts). Where is your analysis showing how many are actually necessary? You don't have one, and "a relatively small number of people" is no analysis at all, so you have no argument.
וכסיל לא יבין את זאת
A fool doesn't understand 'this'.
The fool enters the factory and asks the engineer what the purpose of a certain screw is. He has no idea of how the factory works, what needs it has, and what criteria are used to decide matters. Yet he asks about a single detail.
The question, "why do we need so many Lomdim to guarantee the future of the Torah" is easily answered by someone who devotes his life to learning. But the one who knows little about Torah, has spent more time and effort studying zoology and nonsense than Gemara, is like the fool who asks about a certain screw without knowing how the system works.
And that refers to the person who merely asks the question. The idiot who believes that his question is correct and there is no answer, and everyone else got it wrong, is just a plain moron, nobody worth answering.
You're demonstrating that the ideology you support (whatever it is as it doesn't sound familiar except on this comment section) has no claim to objective truth. You are stating that only those who have bought into the ideology can understand why it is correct and anyone who questions it is ipso facto foolish for even asking. This inures the ideology form ever being tested or even discussed in any objective manner. This puts your ideology, (if you were correct), on the same footing as flat eartherism. I'm not sure why people would waste time with it unless they had already drunk the kool-aid.
You can call it what you want David, but he's not wrong. Learning shas and poskim is really, really difficult. We chareidim are a tiny fraction of people on this pale blue dot and even if we are growing, there really is not so many of us.
We also strongly believe that God is most present within this mesorah which we live and breathe when we learn through a sugya which begins with the work of the balei hamishna and gemara, our greatest sages, through the rishonim and acharonim all the way to the modern day poskim. In this world God and His word live (daled amos shel halacha). Which is basically our only fight against the increasingly cold agnostic and atheistic western world. This is not a mere side point to Judaism. It is Judaism.
That's great and lofty rhetoric. All that learning has to combined with DOING THE RIGHT THING, otherwise it's meaningless.
see what i wrote above https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-importance-of-torah-study-vs/comment/42933010 part 3
I'm not doubting the value or difficulty of learning. I actually have done it and do it myself. But there is a whole sector of the country which values learning just as much and is now involved in combat in Gaza. I have no monopoly on the truth and who it's always possible that the Charedim are right about some things where I would disagree. That is not Zichron's argument.
Zichron is claiming that one is a fool for even questioning some aspect of what he imagines Charedi ideology to be. I've listened to Charedi Rabbis defend the draft deferral and while I don't agree with their arguments, none of them have ever claimed "Only us charedim can understand, you fool".
I'm also going to point out two other things.
1) I've studied some science and math and those subjects contain areas where you sometimes have to study for years at an advanced level to even understand the terminology. But they never fall back to being claiming that only the science "gedolim" can really understand or decide something. In science, all assumptions can (and have been) overturned with new evidence and in math everything is proven with a proof that anyone is free to check for errors. So pointing out the difficulty of subject doesn't have anything to do with relying on the "greats". That is an independent construct.
2) Related to the above, *everyone* errs and the more isolated one is from outside knowledge, the greater the errors. One of the wonderful things about Charedi culture is the emphasis on intellectual pursuit. It is a community of scholars. (It's overboard in those cultures where kids can't even play sports, but that is a side point). But the downside is that the pursuit happens within a box that excludes lots of sources of knowledge including even other Torah greats with the wrong ideology, let alone lots of secular knowledge which has been built up with the same level of effort and extreme talent as Torah study.
So, e.g., when R Elchonon Wasserman makes his argument to "prove" that the non-religious are all hedonists, he includes a form of the argument by design seemingly without realizing what it is or it has a long and by now checkered history. And he cites it without even mentioning the problems evolution raises to it let alone dealing with them. Nor does he actually bother to examine whether or not it's really true that non-religious are hedonists. He's in his box and that's all he has to deal with. I was very interested to read inside what he wrote in those letters which everyone has heard about and when I did, I came away very disappointed as even I as an amateur could see that the argument is not well-developed.
Torah is not like science or math but is closer to philosophy that is based on received wisdom from Sinai and the prophets. It requires kedushah, yiras shamayim, siyata dishmaya, and years and years of immersive learning. Not like science and math at all. Nevertheless, the same thing can happen with science and math, you can argue with some people about round vs. flat earth until your face turns blue. Slifkin (and I believe you) are very much the Torah version of flat earthers.
Based on my experiences, I believe R' Elchonon is definitely very close to the truth. Maybe you had different experiences.
"philosophy that is based on received wisdom"
?
"Based on my experiences, I believe R' Elchonon is definitely very close to the truth." Maybe he is and may be he isn't. That letter is fails to even recognize the fundamental well-known issues in the argument he is invoking let along grapple with them.
No doubt you also believe ALL goyim are stupid. Or they ALL live merely for their holidays and other gashmius. All the stuff we were taught in cheider about 'goyim'.
That's the point. they teach that in cheder but we grow up and become continuously more nuanced
i'm not condoning ZD's tone.
but Torah to a chareidi is much more than an intellectual pursuit, as I'm sure you're aware. It's a way of life, a philosophy and more importantly, the word of God - a connection to Him and His will. this takes years of training to appreciate. and many people have opinions when they haven't been immersed long enough. they're still struggling with how to piece a rashi and a tos with a rashba and a ketzos but they already "know" that anyone can make up whatever they want because learning is a free for all and chavrusas just talk past each other and there's no coherency in the sugyos that our leaders have spent their lives on for millenium...
fwiw, I would argue with point 1 that quantum mechanics, to pick one example is only truly understood through its math which requires a high degree of understanding in the field otherwise its just words that hardly describe the essence of the subject. Politics are definitely like that. everyone has fully formed opinions on the most complicated subjects which they know nothing about. i'd say it's pretty similar here, but that would require a longer discussion.
reb Elchanan's point has been disputed, though i personally agree from personal experience. biases are really, really strong it's scary. but no for now
Rabbi Slifkin, I agree this is not the real reasoning of the charedis, nor is the last one, and I think I know and agree to what you believe is the real reason.
However I think you are mistaken in your handling of Rabbi Herzog's opinion. If he thought "the letter of the halacha" would indeed not allow for anyone to stay and not go to war, Rabbi Herzog would never have "put it aside".
What he really meant (in my opinion) is what every sensible person understands. When we say to "fetch the bride from her chupah and the groom from his feast", we mean: if necessary, the bride and groom being the very last persons we would enlist. I mean, surely even the dati leumis do not call for every last individual to take arms and attack Gaza?
So the question was: are those students of Torah really necessary for the war effort, and rabbi Herzog was of the opinion that saving the Torah from "being forgotten from Israel, for these ones in Israel are the surviving remnant" really was reason enough to "make special arrangements for them", provided the IDF could (and did) manage without them.
Of course you don't need *everyone.* But then you raise the question of who *doesn't* have to go. And to say, "Well, he wears a black hat and/or was born into a certain community, so he doesn't have to serve" is just, well, un-just.
If every single 18-year-old would report, and the army would then say, "Hmmm, you're not in very good physical shape, take a desk job" or "Hmm, you're pretty smart, go into Intelligence" or "Hmmmm, you're an honest-to-goodness pacifist, national service for you,' that would be something else.
Right. So you agree with me the question is not, and has never been about "milchemet mitzvah" or whatever (although according to Rabbi Slifkin it might be in the not-so-distant future) which is at this point as much an excuse as "Torah magna umatzla" is.
The true, real, aching and legitimate issue is a שוויון בנטל one.
Now I'm not a chareidi apologist, although I have the lifestyle, and I don't want to look like I'm dismissing the issue. It is a big problem, and I think a solution must be found asap. But I will still bring up some facts, which migh be food for thought.
1) The "Torato Umanuto" arrangement formally is open to everyone.
2) Some of the best armies in the world have abandoned the draft, and work as professional armies. The draft in Israel is in part an ideological choice, and the dati leumi sector is among the fiercest advocates of it. That means they ideologically want to all go serve in the army.
Handwaves: "has never been about "milchemet mitzvah"
But it has. And it is.
You "live the lifestyle"? How nice. Tell me, in which country do you live said lifestyle?
Well, in Israel, that's what it means (and I already mentioned it to you once). And before this becomes personal, let me tell you in advance I don't care if you think I am a sucker or whatever.
The IDF did not draft me because they don't draft olim with children (and, to be frank, I didn't come here to fight and I would have happily stayed in France over coming here and serve in the army for a few years).
Thanks for confirming what I said. If you don't see it, well, I can't help you.
By the way, the IDF doesn't take anyone over 26, parents or not.
And now I'm beginning to think that you don't have any idea what a "sucker" is. I was going to say that despite your obsession, no one on either "side" in Israel thinks that way, but maybe we're dealing with a language barrier.
I mean like bloodsucker, profiteer, exploiter, leech, parasite, what have you.
Not the ones under constant threat from other countries, or indeed civil war. Furthmore, the moment war does break out, all countries draft. And Israel is in a constant state of war.
Like I said, its all about the FOF. Fear Of Fraiyer.
How petty.
Being uncomfortable with the fact that my kids, and those of just about everyone I know, are [literally] putting their lives on the line for you where you're not willing to do the same for me is hardly "petty".
You should know that he actually is willing to do the same for you.
As I told you before, thank you for your kids' service. John Adams wrote: “I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.” But your kids and all religious soldiers are fighting for something far, far greater. Incomparably greater, in fact.
He's a troll. Don't sweat it. He claims to think that basic fairness in sharing the burden of dying for the country is petty. (I don't think that he thinks this in real life, but he wants to upset you).
Kudos to your children, but that's not the issue, and you don't what my opinions on the army are, thank you very much. The precise question is the attempted forcible draft of people against their will. (Leave aside how this could possibly be enforced against so many Israeli Arabs and Charedim, that's a different issue.) It's become quite clear the only reason many oppose Charedim is not because they think its necessary or even valuable, but purely that they shouldn't "get away" (as they see it) with something they can't. FOF. And yes, that's petty.
Sounds like someone with an outside, stereotyped image of Israelis to me. And it doesn't even make sense.
Not at all. It's the mentaliot.
I think the word is "mentality." And it still isn't. Why don't you go, say, to my friend whose son was killed in service and thinks everyone should serve and tell her she's just suffering from fear of being a freyer.
”The nation needs... and towering Torah giants to inspire and shed light on complex topics.”
That’s a new admission from you! Bravo!
Exactly. The percentage of elite chareidim exempted should be similar to elite athletes and artists. And they should have to prove themselves, just as athletes have to.
One can interpret הכל הולכים to mean that the king call up anyone to a מלחמת מצווה. If the king gives an exemption thats technically his choice wether or not its a good idea strategically or morally.
this is an important conversation but for another time. Right now we need to pull together as much as we can. Please remove this post.
Maybe pulling together at this time entails that charedim pull together in army service
Why argue about this now? Pls G-d if we survive we can revisit this afterwards. Now we need to love eachother.
Can love each other and discuss the issues simultaneously
This is the best time to surface this issue as the charedim feel palpably how important army service is. God gave us a wake up call - what do you get if there is no Tzahal (as Tzahal took some time to reach some communities in the South)? You get what happened, just like in Europe. אם אין צה"ל אין תורה.
"what do you get if there is no Tzahal (as Tzahal took some time to reach some communities in the South)? You get what happened, just like in Europe. אם אין צה"ל אין תורה."
There wasn't 'no tzahal.' If anything, your own argument works against you.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/hyraxes-vs-hamas/comment/41975208?utm_source=activity_item
See also:
https://www.engineering.com/story/a-failure-to-communicate-for-israel-and-a-massive-surprise-attack-for-hamas
"Three more towers were seen smoking hours later and gaps opened in the border fence, allowing a total of 1,500 Hamas invaders to cross into Israel. They overran an army base, which inexplicably housed several commanders, killing and taking hostages. Soldiers were killed in their beds; others were killed in their underwear. The resulting loss of a forward command structure combined with the loss of the communication network that made central command screens blank also prevented a concerted counterattack and the ability of soldiers to request that Tel Aviv scramble air support. Attack planes, based only minutes away, would not arrive for hours, despite social media immediately documenting the attacks."
What actually are you saying? That failures in a system prove it unnecessary? Please be clear.
After leaning what גדולי ישראל have revealed about the enemy, (and how the enemy is misunderstood by some of our brothers), I think we need more Torah scholars in the IDF.
Ephraim, well said.
I thought you weren't engaging with me?
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/idf-exemptions-the-crucial-distinction/comment/42452596
"What actually are you saying? That failures in a system prove it unnecessary? Please be clear."
I was responding to a comment about what the attack on Oct 7th proved. I observed that it didn't prove the need for more soldiers.
"After leaning what גדולי ישראל have revealed about the enemy, (and how the enemy is misunderstood by some of our brothers), I think we need more Torah scholars in the IDF."
I honestly have no clue what you're saying. I'm all in favor of increasing torah scholars generally, though. Especially if it involves replacing dumb IDF marching bands with shiurim.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%96%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA_%D7%A6%D7%94%22%D7%9C#%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%96%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA
I thought it's only a yeshivish thing to say why God did this or that. I guess it's OK to play God if we can interpret it to fit our agenda.
And we need to train the next set of soldiers now….
Abhore
Violently ripping people out of their culture and into something they ashore can’t lead to anything good. This is a self solving problem . A coalition will come about that doesn’t need the charaidi parties ( charedi em as in monolith is bigoted speech) . If it is wise it will never force them to serve the state in any way. The issue is people not wanting to support people that won’t work . Economic incentives to charedim and more important to potential employers will cause social anxiety among the non workers and they will work of their own accord. Forcing them to fight is forcing conscientious objectors to fight. Forcing them to work when they are told God doesn’t permit them to work is just cruel . We made this mess for them when we granted the initial exemptions. If yo give people free money what would you expect ? They became dependent. What would most of us do ? Now we have to mitigate what we have done to these fine Jewish people.
"Because of the principle that “it is a time to act for God; overturn the law.”"
Interesting. When ר' איסר זלמן מלצר issued his opinion on the matter, he also invoked עת לעשות:
http://www.daattorah.022.co.il/BRPortal/br/P102.jsp?arc=209552
(It would be instructive to find a primary source for the quotation, perhaps one without the ellipsis)
The implication is, that had the Torah world not have been in its post-Holocaust crisis, he may have opposed the exemption.
Didn't 2,000 chareidim just join the a army? So your subtitle is no longer true
Do you know how many charedim did NOT just join the army?
You didn't say "some" chareidim or even "many" chareidim. You said "is this the reason why chareidim don't join the army?" If 2000 joined, don't you think that sentence deserves a qualifier? You weren't questioning the joining of the army, you were questioning the reason.
2000 out of 150,000 is not a significant number in this context
What about contrasted to the past 10 years?
What do you consider a significant number? That's more than 1%. Everyone has to start somewhere.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/generalizations-about-generalizations
Positive reinforcement goes a long way. When is the last time 2000 chareidim joined the army at once? If you believe this is necessary hishtadlus, you should be applauding this.
If your reaction to 2,000 chareidim joining the army, including two sons of a Shas MK, is "that's not a significant amount and it doesn't show anything about chareidim", you come across as unreasonable, and chareidim come across as flexible and willing and able to change their minds when it becomes necessary. Ie, if the army needs them, they join.
I couldn't find more recent numbers, but a quick google shows that 1,222 chareidim joined the IDF in 2019. That would be nearly a 100% increase, which is quite significant.
I'd find it hard to beleive that the 150,000 figure are Male chareidim between the ages 18-25, so its way more than 1%.