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shulman's avatar

Nice articulation.

You are missing some important implementation practicalities, ones which make a lot of your issues moot.

1. No one wakes up being a posek hador. Like you say about training for army service, that it starts from a young age, here also. We teach our kids about the gedolim; they are the legends who we all try to emulate. We hang their pictures on our walls. We relate stories and impart lessons from them and their teachings. We constantly impress on our kids the single-focused importance of the Torah to your nation. We then send them off to the yeshivos in hopes that they absorb the beauty of Torah first hand and swim in it's depths. This way they are part of this community intimately.

Not everyone will stay in learning, but even those who become zevuluns appreciate the importance of those in learning and allow this continuum, without despising the fact that they are supporting Torah.

If we begin to stress other things this has an obvious detrimental affect on the whole system.

No doubt, like any culture, there are downsides which need to be addressed but this doesn't take away from the importance of the system.

2. The years from 18 till 23 at least are the most formative years of learning. this is when the bachurim get to taste the higher level shiurim and really learn how to dissect a sugya. We wouldn't take this away without extreme circumstances. So even if you manage to address some of the issues - and you may find solutions when it comes to going to work - but the army is just during this interval in a person's life. it's far from simple.

3. Last point, you still need to provide evidence that more people are needed there are able as many reservists in Israel add I'm the entire US (I think the US has like 370k). The Israeli army, as far as numbers and passion is very high. The nationalism is greater than most countries. So do we really need to be mevatel Torah? We are only mevatel Torah when it's truly necessary. Predictions and maybes don't work here.

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Norm's avatar

“But moreover, when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves. I will demonstrate this in two ways.

First is with regard to numbers…With charedi yeshiva students, on the other hand, the exemption is demanded to be open-ended, not matter how many hundreds of thousands of yeshiva students there are, and no matter what percentage of the population they are.”

How does this demonstrate that when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves?

“Second, and even more powerfully…They want only charedi young men to receive these exemptions (and they prefer not to think about how the growing numbers of such people will indeed threaten the economy and national security).”

I agree with Joyous that is utterly false. Charedim would be thrilled if more DL would learn full time. There are charedi yeshivas that are geared for flip outs from MO and DL where the whole premise is that they will adopt the lifestyle of long-term learning. I suppose charedim don’t really want to make baalei teshuva either, because then there would be fewer chilonim to serve in the army? Charedi BT yeshivas are all phony I guess. You also haven’t provided any proof for this feeling of yours. But more powerfully, if true how does this demonstrate that when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves? You expect them to weaken an already unpopular argument by applying it to many more who are not full time learning?

”Moreover, …You don’t have to prove any excellence in Torah study or even any special dedication or commitment to it. You just have to register in a yeshivah, which is what charedi society wants everyone to do. Nobody in the charedi world is interested in actually checking on who is not learning well and turning them in for army service.”

How does this demonstrate that when charedim present this argument, they don’t even believe it themselves?

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