Please add me to your growing list of people who are upset.
I know that I am not allowed to hate, and I honestly feel that I do not hate.
But I *am* upset, and I did feel let down by my Charedi brothers at the beginning of the war.
Adding to this the history of Charedi leaders' decisions in the Shoah and during Covid (just two instances), I now do not expect anything from this community. After months of serving in a reserve combat unit, I am no longer let down. I do not look with awe towards any Charedi leaders. They may be experts at *learning* Torah, but they get an F for *living* Torah. My own commander is a Rav and an amazing Talmid Chacham who teaches in a yeshiva, and the watershed post-war moments have made me change my avenue of respect. This great man has a brilliant military history, and not only knows how to *learn* Torah, but he *lives* it. These are now my role models, these great men now have my utmost respect, and while I refuse to hate my Charedi brothers, I really don't want anything to do with them...at least as long as the war is going on. They have once again missed a great chance to do a huge mitzvah, and have caused an unfathomable amount of Chilul Hashem.
You hit it right on the head: I would never confront a Charedi person and express myself!
I'll let Hashem do that (and you, too, as a faithful messenger).
"They may be experts at *learning* Torah, but they get an F for *living* Torah. "
It's an old problem. See כלי יקר on דברים א:ז :
רב לכם שבת בהר הזה פנו וסעו לכם. זו תוכחה ראשונה על שהאנשים שנאו את הארץ ונתישבו בהר זה ישיבה של קבע ולא פנו פניהם אל הארץ מקום מיוחד לקיום המצות... ולקמן עשה פירוש מבואר על תוכחה זו ואמר ונסע מחורב ונלך את כל המדבר וגו' והיה לו לומר ונפן ונסע מחורב כדרך שאמר פנו וסעו. אלא כך אמר להם עדיין בפחזותכם קיימיתון כי אני אמרתי פנו וסעו שכשתלכו מן הר חורב מקום שלמדתם עליו תורה תפנו פניכם אל הארץ מקום שמירת התורה כי לא המדרש עיקר אלא המעשה. ואתם בלכתכם מחורב רוח אחרת היתה עמכם ליסע ממקום מיוחד לת"ת ואל מקום שמירת המצות לא פניתם פניכם ובמרדכם אתם עומדים לשנוא את הארץ...
I wish someone could come up with a workable solution. The charedim will never, ever, ever serve in the current IDF in its current makeup. See vayakhel.com to understand why.
Perhaps the only option is to create a new army run by gedolim, exclusively for charedim. I see no other option.
The current set of gedolim have no knowledge or skills to command an army. The would no more consider themselves qualified to run an army than they would to do brain surgery. The only way this could change is if Charedim enlisted, and became both career soldiers as well as "gedolim".
AT a time when there was no brain imaging and when brain surgery was at its most primitive state, he drew a primitive diagram based on the primitive medical texts of that time.
As per Rav Shimon Schwab, who was asked by CI to bring him medical texts from Europe, and Rav Gedaliah Nadel, who also brought him medical texts.
You really think that can work? Society wont experiment in such an unprecedented manner. You need to come uo with a better solution. Like chareidi אוגודת or even a פיקוד.
"An army run by the so-called "gedolim" with their vast military experience, technological mastery, and nuanced respect for Israeli society, will be a smashing success I'm sure."
If they were to follow the רמב"ם that the Torah leadership must have broad knowledge of secular wisdom, then why not? It worked for יהושע and דוד.
This should evoke an old legend, which may actually be true- I heard it from an anti-Zionist קנאי about 40 years ago:
Over 100 years ago, some scoffers in Brisk put on a comedy skit in which they mocked the Torah's description of enlistment. "מי האיש אשר בנה בית" - and several soldiers exited the stage. And so forth, until "מי האיש הירא ורך הלבב", and the rest left- leaving only two actors portraying the elderly שאגת אריה and the ווילנה גאון.
Upset at mockery, some people ran to Rav Chaim Brisker. He was unperturbed and merely complained that the scoffers had left out the ending: The two elderly גדולי הדור indeed went on to be victorious in battle.
There's much to learn from the anecdote. ודי לחכימא ברמיזא
You're little "if" runs contrary to the whole premise of Chareidi society... and if you believe your delusional and dangerous little fairy tale (which runs contrary to every description of warfare in Tanach), why not take your own medicine and station some gedoilei hadoir outside Kiryat Sefer and other IDF-protected Chareidi towns instead of IDF hesder boys so those boys can go back to yeshiva too. You people are so unserious, it's a real tragedy.
I did conclude with ודי לחכימא ברמיזא, and perhaps you didn't get the hint. But I'll take the blame for that.
More explicitly, יהושע and דוד are revered by all Torah True Jews. They were גדולי הדור and warriors. Who are today's warrior גדולים? Who is the עדינו העצני of our times? Which Yeshiva did he learn in?
Now the anecdote is an old one, and even if legend, may predate the State. A parable with unimpeachable currency in the Charedi world, it clearly rejects the notion of any dissonance between being a גדול בתורה and a conquering hero. Rav Chaim Brisker didn't invoke שבט לוי, nor did he lament a כוחי ועוצם ידי attitude. He rejected the idea that the סייף and the ספר are antithetical as a heretical secularist notion.
"why not take your own medicine and station some gedoilei hadoir outside Kiryat Sefer and other IDF-protected Chareidi towns instead of IDF hesder boys "
So very close. Those hesder boys WILL be the future gedoilei hadoir.
I think we're a bit down the rabbit hole here my pseudonymous avatar. And yes, I believe they're clearly not worthy of the influence they have given they have no sense of communal responsibility (and a very poor understanding of the general world for the most part). כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת...
The concept of sachar ve'onesh is a basic tenet of the Torah. One who learns Torah in order to receive reward is considered valuable, but certainly not the same level of value of learning in order to know how to fulfill Hashem's Will and then proceeding to actually fulfill said Will. The Rambam says as much very clearly in the tenth perek of hilchos tshuva. I believe the idea of learning Torah in order to receive physical protection would be viewed as truly deplorable to the Rambam. See what he says in hilchos avoda zara perek 11 halacha 12, as well as hilchos mezuza 5,4. Note regarding the latter source that the gmara itself seems to indicate that a mezuza offers protection, see kesef mishne on hilchos mezuza there. However, (kesef mishne's answer notwithstanding) Rambam seems to think that the protection being described is a spiritual protection from evil views and the yetzer hara, see what he says at the end of hilchos mezuza 6,13, much like meiri says in brachos daf 5 about kriyas shma she'al hamita. Even if one accepts the idea that there is physical protection, that wouldn't change the fact that one's intention when fulfilling the mitzvah should not be with that in mind, see tur and beis yosef at the end of yoreh de'ah siman 285. If one does fulfill the Torah with the correct mindset, he does merit a special hashgacha, as Rambam describes in moreh chelek 3 perek 51 and Ramban on bereishis 18,19 (see also rabenu bechaye there) as well as in iyov 36,7. However, we should not be מניח את העיקר (תורה לשמה) and focus on the טפל (reward/ hashgacha for proper knowledge of Hashem and fulfillment of Torah), as it may, perhaps ironically, undermine the possibility of "earning" said hashgacha (read the sources I reference here).
All of the above is with regard to one who learns Torah and fulfills it, but wants it to also protect him. However, it would be all the more disturbing to use the Torah as a way to get out of fulfilling it by fighting battles of am yisroel and contributing to the national yishuv eretz yisroel, which chasam sofer talks about as being working the land and I would think it would not be a mistake to extend that to generally contributing to the economy of the nation. There is a very popular idea, seemingly only explicitly innovated as late as Rav Chaim mevelozhin, that learning Torah for its own sake (and not in order to fulfill it) is called Torah lishmah (of course, Rav Chaim himself did very much think that people need to learn in order to fulfill, see his hakdama to the gra's commentary on shulchan aruch and he also throws in a line about learning in order to fulfill mitzvos in nefesh hachaim 4,18). If one looks in the rishonim (and tanach and chazal "תלמוד גדול שתלמוד מביא לידי מעשה"), I think it is clear that true learning lishmah is learning in order to fulfill it. The yerushalmi in brachos at the end of perek 1 halacha 2 says about one who learns not in order to fulfill some very harsh things, similar to what is said about one who learns lo lishmah on brachos daf 17. See rosh in pesachim perek 4 siman 2. Rambam in his perush hamishnayos at the beginning of pe'ah says that the reason talmud Torah keneged kulam is because only through learning Torah can one know how to properly fulfill all of its mitzvos (another interesting source, once we're on that mishna, is the perush of the rosh there, who says that bein Adam lachavero is more desirable than bein adam lamakom, an idea that can perhaps be seen in Rambam hilchos geneva perek 7 halacha 12, as well as hilchos rotze'ach 4,9). People seem to forget the six words following והגית בו יומם ולילה in Yehoshua perek 1. Meiri on moed katan daf 9 also makes the point that the point of learning is meant to be in order to fulfill. Rashi towards the beginning of bechukosai seems to say this as well. See also rabenu bechaye on avos 1,17. Kesef mishne on talmud Torah 3,10 also says that Torah lishmah is limud al menas laasos. Finally, see the powerful words of radak on Yirmiyahu 2,8.
It is exceedingly difficult to fulfill the Torah in modern times with all of the temptations and other difficulties. However, that does not exempt us from trying to apply what the Torah actually says and live in the world we were put in. We should all merit to learn Torah, guard it, and fulfill all of the words of Hashem's Torah with love, and through this, merit to finally see the fulfillment of the brachos in parshas bechukosai as well as all of the other brachos of the nevi'im and to see Moshiach speedily in our days and the fulfillment of כי מלאה הארץ דעה את השם, as Rambam describes in hilchos tshuva perek 9 as well as, fittingly, at the very end of his sefer, at the end of hilchos melachim.
My father has his album "feet on the ground." I just spoke to my cousin (Moshe's son) who told me that he isn't aware of a way to get all of his music. :( (also, not sure how you'd get it from me if I had it, but anyway, might make sense to switch to private, my email is Mosesaverick@gmail.com)
I linked a comment to which I responded that I'm his nephew. He also helped start aish hatorah in Toronto (he also fixed appliances and wouldn't charge people for his time unless he was successful in fixing them and he would fix a local loan soldiers' house things for free) (as you seemed to be aware of in your first question, my uncle did die from covid related medical issues)
It is obviously hard for you to objectively consider what is being said here and why. Instead you make accusations without any actual facts or information...Sad...Am Israel is in huge distress and concern about a significant population not helping when it is most necessary.....and trying to find religious rationalizations for their choice to use Torah to avoid what the Torah is commanding us to do is very disturbing. This is not Torat Chayim...
Not being willing to do whatever is necessary to save Israel from destruction in times of general pikuach nefesh is a Torah path I don't understand? I do understand it and I know it's wrong על פי התורה.
I am so glad that you wrote this and expressed exactly what is simmering underneath. I just had this exact conversation with someone yesterday- including mentioning the cartoon from Makor Rishon which is an honest and true portrayal of the situation. I am surrounded by wonderful, torani Dati Leumi families who have sons fighting for months, including two friends who have LOST sons, and my Anglo-Charedi family and friends continue to turn their backs on the entire situation. I too have stopped socializing with certain people because I just can no longer stomach it. The feelings of frustration, pain, and anger are very real.
Excellent and insightful post. My one quibble is that while some secular Jews, as you correctly assert, are unfortunately under the impression that the Chareidi position is an essential part of Torah Judaism, I think that many others simply wrote off the Chareidi community years ago. The reason that they're less upset than the dati leumi world is because they always knew that this would happen, and, unlike many in the dati leumi world, had zero expectations that there would be a different response.
I would guess that most dati-leumi people in Israel either know someone killed or seriously injured or are one level removed. In my home town of Raanana several dati-leumi have been killed. In addition to those hundreds listed in the papers as killed there are many thousands that are very seriously wounded with missing limbs. I have a grandson in Gaza and people in the family don't sleep well at night for months. This all leads to being "upset" at the charedi community - they mostly have not been been affected by the war. I am especially upset at the summer camps for yeshiva boys in bein hazmanim with singers and other entertainment. To see the feelings I suggest various "alonim" like matzav haruach
Vacation this year should consist of visiting the army sites and seeing how the other side lives. I know a few boys who did that (with the encouragement of their ry) and although they are bH going back to yeshiva and not joining the army (albeit learning with new intensity), it made a real impact and a newfound appreciation of what is happening "in their very backyard"
״they have been avoiding socializing with their relatives since October 7th״
Very close relatives like siblings. And even friends.
When we lost a cherished member of our community. A soldier who was only 21 years old. Killed by an RPG to his armored vehicle. Someone who was very close friends with my son. It broke us.
I couldnt talk to my Sister in-laws who's children have made a conscious decision to learn torah instead of fighting for klal yisrael. Not only that but they didnt call nor did their children who were not fighting the week of the shiva. Its as if they have no connection to what we are going through.
Since then I had a very hard time davening at Machsas Mordechai in RBS. I felt that all the charedim and black haters davening with all their kavana are fakers. Their tehillim seemed empty.
Sorry thats how we feel. And many dati leumi feel the same.
As noted Haredim Have chosen to separate themselves from the Jewish people for the past 150 years and particularly for the past 75 years. Such a shame.
Since Israel is a democracy, then The change you desire will only happen when parties that represent the dati community break from the Netanyahu right-wing coalition government and join parties that support shared sacrifice and democratic principles.
The RZ parties are so extreme that no one will join a coalition with them except for Netanyahu in his desperation to retain power and the Charedi parties who oppose them but want to keep the money flowing.
There's a odd parallel between Smotrich/BG and UTJ/Shas. While nominally RZ, the former have little vision and have one item on their platform- settlements. They are willing to sell out on every other RZ issue to make noise and fury over the settlements. The Charedi parties are only interested in money, and also have no broader vision.
The difference is that without UTJ/Shas in the coalition, they wouldn't get their money. Without Smotrich/BG in the coalition, there still would be settlements.
Since Israel is a democracy, change is not happening because most people in the country don't think like you do, they are either more right or more left so that's that.
That's so oversimplified as to be wrong (at least in this case). The electorate at the last election was almost evenly divided just as it had been in the prior election. The differences had to do with parties meeting thresholds. And since 7 Oct, the people have almost certainly changed their allegiances, but the govt doesn't move with the electorate, but with the last election. Perhaps most importantly (and to get back to assertion about party coalitions) Israeli govts are based on coalitions of parties who have completely different objectives. The Charedi parties don't support the RZ agenda, but they want their money and this is the coalition that supports it. That said, I agree that often when people analyze politics they are really saying is that if only more people agreed with me, everything would be good.
Makor Rishon dosent neccesarily represent the serious dati world that many anglos in beit shemesh know of. For example much of the hesder/hesder merkaz community sees both sides of the equation. Think of Rav Fendel, rosh yeshiva of the largest hesder yeshiva, and the kav world.
Really? "Just a difference of opinion"??? You are aware that we are sending our sons to risk their lives on the battlefield, right? Are you aware that there is actually a severe shortage of combat soldiers since October 7th? Are you aware that this shortage means that our soldiers have to be on duty more of the time and have to sleep less and thus put their lives in further danger? Are you aware of the mitzvah לֹא תַעֲמֹד עַל דַּם רֵעֶךָ? Are you aware that *nowhere* in the Torah or Chaza"l does it say that studying Torah exempts you from going to war, even for a milchemet reshut? The fact that you could even think that this is just a difference of opinion, especially after October 7th, truly boggles my mind.
Then will the dati leumi community vote for an anti-haredi party in the next election? I sure hope so. If you are right wing, vote for Lieberman. If you are left wing, vote for the new Avodah-Meretz coalition.
"Perhaps the thought may occur to them that the charedi approach might not be the authentic Torah way."
I'm not sure of the entire history of how charedi yeshiva students getting a deferral from army service worked in Israel in the past. I think that it started only with Begin's victory in the 1977 elections and forming a government with the charedim, Prior to that, there were quotas imposed as to how many deferrals they could give to people claiming תורתו אומנותו--that they're "full-time" Torah learners.
The problem is, people probably don't remember that far back, and charedim not serving in the army became the "new normal". Going back to a quota system (like Yair Lapid proposed, granting exemptions to 18,000 students) will be perceived as an "attack on the Torah world".
There's no question that you guys have what to be angry about. And emotional arguments will win every time, especially when those arguments hold water. but, I'm sure you realize, respectfully, that this in it of itself doesn't make chareidim wrong.
If charedim truly believed that they are on the frontlines of this war then bein hazmanim should have been cancelled (or more should have followed The Mir and deferred for a week) At minimum, vacations among the major yeshivas should gave been staggered such that there was always yeshivas learning. No army gives all of its soldiers off at once.
"It’s important to break Anglo-charedim out of their delusions" - It's important to help everyone move away from the belief that Talmudic proverbs like תורה מגנא ומצלא were divinely given at Mount Sinai.
The inactions of the charedim during the war has been devastating to us who looked up to them as role models of Torah They are effecting a chilul Hashem. I pray we are given true role models of Torah V’Avodah.
I find it strange that Rabbi Schreiber did not mention any source in the Torah to support his position. Is it not standard practice to give sources for one's opinions when answering a sheilah? So, instead of the meaningless post in The Yated Neeman, Rabbi Schreiber should publish a letter or full article teaching us the sources for his opinions.
Someone asked me to post the following:
Shalom Rav Natan.
Great column, as usual!
Please add me to your growing list of people who are upset.
I know that I am not allowed to hate, and I honestly feel that I do not hate.
But I *am* upset, and I did feel let down by my Charedi brothers at the beginning of the war.
Adding to this the history of Charedi leaders' decisions in the Shoah and during Covid (just two instances), I now do not expect anything from this community. After months of serving in a reserve combat unit, I am no longer let down. I do not look with awe towards any Charedi leaders. They may be experts at *learning* Torah, but they get an F for *living* Torah. My own commander is a Rav and an amazing Talmid Chacham who teaches in a yeshiva, and the watershed post-war moments have made me change my avenue of respect. This great man has a brilliant military history, and not only knows how to *learn* Torah, but he *lives* it. These are now my role models, these great men now have my utmost respect, and while I refuse to hate my Charedi brothers, I really don't want anything to do with them...at least as long as the war is going on. They have once again missed a great chance to do a huge mitzvah, and have caused an unfathomable amount of Chilul Hashem.
You hit it right on the head: I would never confront a Charedi person and express myself!
I'll let Hashem do that (and you, too, as a faithful messenger).
"They may be experts at *learning* Torah, but they get an F for *living* Torah. "
It's an old problem. See כלי יקר on דברים א:ז :
רב לכם שבת בהר הזה פנו וסעו לכם. זו תוכחה ראשונה על שהאנשים שנאו את הארץ ונתישבו בהר זה ישיבה של קבע ולא פנו פניהם אל הארץ מקום מיוחד לקיום המצות... ולקמן עשה פירוש מבואר על תוכחה זו ואמר ונסע מחורב ונלך את כל המדבר וגו' והיה לו לומר ונפן ונסע מחורב כדרך שאמר פנו וסעו. אלא כך אמר להם עדיין בפחזותכם קיימיתון כי אני אמרתי פנו וסעו שכשתלכו מן הר חורב מקום שלמדתם עליו תורה תפנו פניכם אל הארץ מקום שמירת התורה כי לא המדרש עיקר אלא המעשה. ואתם בלכתכם מחורב רוח אחרת היתה עמכם ליסע ממקום מיוחד לת"ת ואל מקום שמירת המצות לא פניתם פניכם ובמרדכם אתם עומדים לשנוא את הארץ...
I wish someone could come up with a workable solution. The charedim will never, ever, ever serve in the current IDF in its current makeup. See vayakhel.com to understand why.
Perhaps the only option is to create a new army run by gedolim, exclusively for charedim. I see no other option.
The current set of gedolim have no knowledge or skills to command an army. The would no more consider themselves qualified to run an army than they would to do brain surgery. The only way this could change is if Charedim enlisted, and became both career soldiers as well as "gedolim".
" do brain surgery. "
A poor choice of words? Or a deliberate provocation? I mean "brain surgery"-- but the חזון איש!
CI never did brain surgery.
AT a time when there was no brain imaging and when brain surgery was at its most primitive state, he drew a primitive diagram based on the primitive medical texts of that time.
As per Rav Shimon Schwab, who was asked by CI to bring him medical texts from Europe, and Rav Gedaliah Nadel, who also brought him medical texts.
I looked up your website and it seems like you give peleg a platform.
He is not with peleg anymore.
He is affiiated with Satmar.
Ah. And he has an idea about the future of the state. No thanks.
That's my point. I pointed out to the poster previously but he ignored me.
You really think that can work? Society wont experiment in such an unprecedented manner. You need to come uo with a better solution. Like chareidi אוגודת or even a פיקוד.
Thats not a seperate army! Thats ppl who guard יישובים.
Like make the security of different areas being under this new unit. Great idea, but never happening.
" Those who dedicate their lives to Torah study..."
..and those who don't also don't serve.
"An army run by the so-called "gedolim" with their vast military experience, technological mastery, and nuanced respect for Israeli society, will be a smashing success I'm sure."
If they were to follow the רמב"ם that the Torah leadership must have broad knowledge of secular wisdom, then why not? It worked for יהושע and דוד.
This should evoke an old legend, which may actually be true- I heard it from an anti-Zionist קנאי about 40 years ago:
Over 100 years ago, some scoffers in Brisk put on a comedy skit in which they mocked the Torah's description of enlistment. "מי האיש אשר בנה בית" - and several soldiers exited the stage. And so forth, until "מי האיש הירא ורך הלבב", and the rest left- leaving only two actors portraying the elderly שאגת אריה and the ווילנה גאון.
Upset at mockery, some people ran to Rav Chaim Brisker. He was unperturbed and merely complained that the scoffers had left out the ending: The two elderly גדולי הדור indeed went on to be victorious in battle.
There's much to learn from the anecdote. ודי לחכימא ברמיזא
You're little "if" runs contrary to the whole premise of Chareidi society... and if you believe your delusional and dangerous little fairy tale (which runs contrary to every description of warfare in Tanach), why not take your own medicine and station some gedoilei hadoir outside Kiryat Sefer and other IDF-protected Chareidi towns instead of IDF hesder boys so those boys can go back to yeshiva too. You people are so unserious, it's a real tragedy.
I did conclude with ודי לחכימא ברמיזא, and perhaps you didn't get the hint. But I'll take the blame for that.
More explicitly, יהושע and דוד are revered by all Torah True Jews. They were גדולי הדור and warriors. Who are today's warrior גדולים? Who is the עדינו העצני of our times? Which Yeshiva did he learn in?
Now the anecdote is an old one, and even if legend, may predate the State. A parable with unimpeachable currency in the Charedi world, it clearly rejects the notion of any dissonance between being a גדול בתורה and a conquering hero. Rav Chaim Brisker didn't invoke שבט לוי, nor did he lament a כוחי ועוצם ידי attitude. He rejected the idea that the סייף and the ספר are antithetical as a heretical secularist notion.
"why not take your own medicine and station some gedoilei hadoir outside Kiryat Sefer and other IDF-protected Chareidi towns instead of IDF hesder boys "
So very close. Those hesder boys WILL be the future gedoilei hadoir.
"each goat has its role in the herd"
You don't know many goats, do you?
I think we're a bit down the rabbit hole here my pseudonymous avatar. And yes, I believe they're clearly not worthy of the influence they have given they have no sense of communal responsibility (and a very poor understanding of the general world for the most part). כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת...
The IDF would never allow that.
Ah so you don't want Chareidim in the Army?
The concept of sachar ve'onesh is a basic tenet of the Torah. One who learns Torah in order to receive reward is considered valuable, but certainly not the same level of value of learning in order to know how to fulfill Hashem's Will and then proceeding to actually fulfill said Will. The Rambam says as much very clearly in the tenth perek of hilchos tshuva. I believe the idea of learning Torah in order to receive physical protection would be viewed as truly deplorable to the Rambam. See what he says in hilchos avoda zara perek 11 halacha 12, as well as hilchos mezuza 5,4. Note regarding the latter source that the gmara itself seems to indicate that a mezuza offers protection, see kesef mishne on hilchos mezuza there. However, (kesef mishne's answer notwithstanding) Rambam seems to think that the protection being described is a spiritual protection from evil views and the yetzer hara, see what he says at the end of hilchos mezuza 6,13, much like meiri says in brachos daf 5 about kriyas shma she'al hamita. Even if one accepts the idea that there is physical protection, that wouldn't change the fact that one's intention when fulfilling the mitzvah should not be with that in mind, see tur and beis yosef at the end of yoreh de'ah siman 285. If one does fulfill the Torah with the correct mindset, he does merit a special hashgacha, as Rambam describes in moreh chelek 3 perek 51 and Ramban on bereishis 18,19 (see also rabenu bechaye there) as well as in iyov 36,7. However, we should not be מניח את העיקר (תורה לשמה) and focus on the טפל (reward/ hashgacha for proper knowledge of Hashem and fulfillment of Torah), as it may, perhaps ironically, undermine the possibility of "earning" said hashgacha (read the sources I reference here).
All of the above is with regard to one who learns Torah and fulfills it, but wants it to also protect him. However, it would be all the more disturbing to use the Torah as a way to get out of fulfilling it by fighting battles of am yisroel and contributing to the national yishuv eretz yisroel, which chasam sofer talks about as being working the land and I would think it would not be a mistake to extend that to generally contributing to the economy of the nation. There is a very popular idea, seemingly only explicitly innovated as late as Rav Chaim mevelozhin, that learning Torah for its own sake (and not in order to fulfill it) is called Torah lishmah (of course, Rav Chaim himself did very much think that people need to learn in order to fulfill, see his hakdama to the gra's commentary on shulchan aruch and he also throws in a line about learning in order to fulfill mitzvos in nefesh hachaim 4,18). If one looks in the rishonim (and tanach and chazal "תלמוד גדול שתלמוד מביא לידי מעשה"), I think it is clear that true learning lishmah is learning in order to fulfill it. The yerushalmi in brachos at the end of perek 1 halacha 2 says about one who learns not in order to fulfill some very harsh things, similar to what is said about one who learns lo lishmah on brachos daf 17. See rosh in pesachim perek 4 siman 2. Rambam in his perush hamishnayos at the beginning of pe'ah says that the reason talmud Torah keneged kulam is because only through learning Torah can one know how to properly fulfill all of its mitzvos (another interesting source, once we're on that mishna, is the perush of the rosh there, who says that bein Adam lachavero is more desirable than bein adam lamakom, an idea that can perhaps be seen in Rambam hilchos geneva perek 7 halacha 12, as well as hilchos rotze'ach 4,9). People seem to forget the six words following והגית בו יומם ולילה in Yehoshua perek 1. Meiri on moed katan daf 9 also makes the point that the point of learning is meant to be in order to fulfill. Rashi towards the beginning of bechukosai seems to say this as well. See also rabenu bechaye on avos 1,17. Kesef mishne on talmud Torah 3,10 also says that Torah lishmah is limud al menas laasos. Finally, see the powerful words of radak on Yirmiyahu 2,8.
It is exceedingly difficult to fulfill the Torah in modern times with all of the temptations and other difficulties. However, that does not exempt us from trying to apply what the Torah actually says and live in the world we were put in. We should all merit to learn Torah, guard it, and fulfill all of the words of Hashem's Torah with love, and through this, merit to finally see the fulfillment of the brachos in parshas bechukosai as well as all of the other brachos of the nevi'im and to see Moshiach speedily in our days and the fulfillment of כי מלאה הארץ דעה את השם, as Rambam describes in hilchos tshuva perek 9 as well as, fittingly, at the very end of his sefer, at the end of hilchos melachim.
My father has his album "feet on the ground." I just spoke to my cousin (Moshe's son) who told me that he isn't aware of a way to get all of his music. :( (also, not sure how you'd get it from me if I had it, but anyway, might make sense to switch to private, my email is Mosesaverick@gmail.com)
I thought you died of covid...
See here
https://open.substack.com/pub/rationalistjudaism/p/more-important-than-learning-torah?utm_source=direct&r=1vv0q6&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=46601235
I don't get it.... are you the author of the atheism book and the rock band singer?
I linked a comment to which I responded that I'm his nephew. He also helped start aish hatorah in Toronto (he also fixed appliances and wouldn't charge people for his time unless he was successful in fixing them and he would fix a local loan soldiers' house things for free) (as you seemed to be aware of in your first question, my uncle did die from covid related medical issues)
It is obviously hard for you to objectively consider what is being said here and why. Instead you make accusations without any actual facts or information...Sad...Am Israel is in huge distress and concern about a significant population not helping when it is most necessary.....and trying to find religious rationalizations for their choice to use Torah to avoid what the Torah is commanding us to do is very disturbing. This is not Torat Chayim...
Not being willing to do whatever is necessary to save Israel from destruction in times of general pikuach nefesh is a Torah path I don't understand? I do understand it and I know it's wrong על פי התורה.
I am so glad that you wrote this and expressed exactly what is simmering underneath. I just had this exact conversation with someone yesterday- including mentioning the cartoon from Makor Rishon which is an honest and true portrayal of the situation. I am surrounded by wonderful, torani Dati Leumi families who have sons fighting for months, including two friends who have LOST sons, and my Anglo-Charedi family and friends continue to turn their backs on the entire situation. I too have stopped socializing with certain people because I just can no longer stomach it. The feelings of frustration, pain, and anger are very real.
Excellent and insightful post. My one quibble is that while some secular Jews, as you correctly assert, are unfortunately under the impression that the Chareidi position is an essential part of Torah Judaism, I think that many others simply wrote off the Chareidi community years ago. The reason that they're less upset than the dati leumi world is because they always knew that this would happen, and, unlike many in the dati leumi world, had zero expectations that there would be a different response.
Scott, you gotta get Natan on your pod, would be great.
I would guess that most dati-leumi people in Israel either know someone killed or seriously injured or are one level removed. In my home town of Raanana several dati-leumi have been killed. In addition to those hundreds listed in the papers as killed there are many thousands that are very seriously wounded with missing limbs. I have a grandson in Gaza and people in the family don't sleep well at night for months. This all leads to being "upset" at the charedi community - they mostly have not been been affected by the war. I am especially upset at the summer camps for yeshiva boys in bein hazmanim with singers and other entertainment. To see the feelings I suggest various "alonim" like matzav haruach
Vacation this year should consist of visiting the army sites and seeing how the other side lives. I know a few boys who did that (with the encouragement of their ry) and although they are bH going back to yeshiva and not joining the army (albeit learning with new intensity), it made a real impact and a newfound appreciation of what is happening "in their very backyard"
admirable but a tiny minority. Most are in yeshiva camps or vacationing in Israel or abroad
agreed. a very small minority
exactly!
״they have been avoiding socializing with their relatives since October 7th״
Very close relatives like siblings. And even friends.
When we lost a cherished member of our community. A soldier who was only 21 years old. Killed by an RPG to his armored vehicle. Someone who was very close friends with my son. It broke us.
I couldnt talk to my Sister in-laws who's children have made a conscious decision to learn torah instead of fighting for klal yisrael. Not only that but they didnt call nor did their children who were not fighting the week of the shiva. Its as if they have no connection to what we are going through.
Since then I had a very hard time davening at Machsas Mordechai in RBS. I felt that all the charedim and black haters davening with all their kavana are fakers. Their tehillim seemed empty.
Sorry thats how we feel. And many dati leumi feel the same.
As noted Haredim Have chosen to separate themselves from the Jewish people for the past 150 years and particularly for the past 75 years. Such a shame.
Since Israel is a democracy, then The change you desire will only happen when parties that represent the dati community break from the Netanyahu right-wing coalition government and join parties that support shared sacrifice and democratic principles.
The RZ parties are so extreme that no one will join a coalition with them except for Netanyahu in his desperation to retain power and the Charedi parties who oppose them but want to keep the money flowing.
There's a odd parallel between Smotrich/BG and UTJ/Shas. While nominally RZ, the former have little vision and have one item on their platform- settlements. They are willing to sell out on every other RZ issue to make noise and fury over the settlements. The Charedi parties are only interested in money, and also have no broader vision.
The difference is that without UTJ/Shas in the coalition, they wouldn't get their money. Without Smotrich/BG in the coalition, there still would be settlements.
Since Israel is a democracy, change is not happening because most people in the country don't think like you do, they are either more right or more left so that's that.
That's so oversimplified as to be wrong (at least in this case). The electorate at the last election was almost evenly divided just as it had been in the prior election. The differences had to do with parties meeting thresholds. And since 7 Oct, the people have almost certainly changed their allegiances, but the govt doesn't move with the electorate, but with the last election. Perhaps most importantly (and to get back to assertion about party coalitions) Israeli govts are based on coalitions of parties who have completely different objectives. The Charedi parties don't support the RZ agenda, but they want their money and this is the coalition that supports it. That said, I agree that often when people analyze politics they are really saying is that if only more people agreed with me, everything would be good.
Which ones? What their vision?
In other words, when the dati community becomes more leftist.
Very important piece.
Makor Rishon dosent neccesarily represent the serious dati world that many anglos in beit shemesh know of. For example much of the hesder/hesder merkaz community sees both sides of the equation. Think of Rav Fendel, rosh yeshiva of the largest hesder yeshiva, and the kav world.
There is no other side. Either you are with us and fight with us, or you are practically supporting our enemies….
Makor Rishon is also *very* Israeli, and the RBS Anglos are not.
Really? "Just a difference of opinion"??? You are aware that we are sending our sons to risk their lives on the battlefield, right? Are you aware that there is actually a severe shortage of combat soldiers since October 7th? Are you aware that this shortage means that our soldiers have to be on duty more of the time and have to sleep less and thus put their lives in further danger? Are you aware of the mitzvah לֹא תַעֲמֹד עַל דַּם רֵעֶךָ? Are you aware that *nowhere* in the Torah or Chaza"l does it say that studying Torah exempts you from going to war, even for a milchemet reshut? The fact that you could even think that this is just a difference of opinion, especially after October 7th, truly boggles my mind.
Then will the dati leumi community vote for an anti-haredi party in the next election? I sure hope so. If you are right wing, vote for Lieberman. If you are left wing, vote for the new Avodah-Meretz coalition.
Lapid also would push for enlisting more charedim.
Until he needs their votes....
"Perhaps the thought may occur to them that the charedi approach might not be the authentic Torah way."
I'm not sure of the entire history of how charedi yeshiva students getting a deferral from army service worked in Israel in the past. I think that it started only with Begin's victory in the 1977 elections and forming a government with the charedim, Prior to that, there were quotas imposed as to how many deferrals they could give to people claiming תורתו אומנותו--that they're "full-time" Torah learners.
The problem is, people probably don't remember that far back, and charedim not serving in the army became the "new normal". Going back to a quota system (like Yair Lapid proposed, granting exemptions to 18,000 students) will be perceived as an "attack on the Torah world".
Right - in fact, Agudat Yisrael requested an increase in the quota, and Begin on his own initiative offered a deferral to everyone.
There's no question that you guys have what to be angry about. And emotional arguments will win every time, especially when those arguments hold water. but, I'm sure you realize, respectfully, that this in it of itself doesn't make chareidim wrong.
If charedim truly believed that they are on the frontlines of this war then bein hazmanim should have been cancelled (or more should have followed The Mir and deferred for a week) At minimum, vacations among the major yeshivas should gave been staggered such that there was always yeshivas learning. No army gives all of its soldiers off at once.
"It’s important to break Anglo-charedim out of their delusions" - It's important to help everyone move away from the belief that Talmudic proverbs like תורה מגנא ומצלא were divinely given at Mount Sinai.
The inactions of the charedim during the war has been devastating to us who looked up to them as role models of Torah They are effecting a chilul Hashem. I pray we are given true role models of Torah V’Avodah.
I find it strange that Rabbi Schreiber did not mention any source in the Torah to support his position. Is it not standard practice to give sources for one's opinions when answering a sheilah? So, instead of the meaningless post in The Yated Neeman, Rabbi Schreiber should publish a letter or full article teaching us the sources for his opinions.
Because דעת תורה has little to do with quoting specific Torah sources.