What an important post indeed, finally someone in the "other" shomer mitzvot community speaking up!
The local chareidi Yeshiva faces the army cemetery - how bitterly ironic - how viciously evil when they hung miserable "pashkvilim" denouncing military service right across from our soldiers graves, יהי זכרם ברוך.
I grew up amongst the chareidim but went my own way to be shomeret mitzvot. When love of Torah, fear of G-d and Ahavat Chinam are inculcated, it doesn't really matter what garb you wear.
I interviewed some chareidim at a cyber company where I worked. I asked why the kids don't serve or at the very least do Sherut Leumi to give to their country.
A senior (chareidi) executive said to me "give back to this country? What has this country done for us".
As much as I believe the Charedim have failed miserably in their response to the war, I am afraid these commenters do not recognize what the Charedim really believe. If they did, they would never have imagined they’d join the army in any significant way. Generally speaking (and this is all a generalization but it explains where the community as a whole is coming from), the Charedim believe they are the continuation of the old yishuv that long predated the State of Israel. And they see the Zionist government as an evil, hostile entity who took over the land with no right to sovereignty over them in any way. The Charedim deserve to live in the land and have zero obligation to this evil government. They sadly view the dati Leumi community as unfortunate dupes who tragically fell in with the evil Zionists and their evil government and evil army. The Charedim will never give up their G-d-given right to live in Eretz Yisrael and will also never give in to any pressure from the evil government to compromise their values. Why do they take support from the state? Why do they not recognize an obligation to their fellow Jews? Why have they not been able to find a way to make peace with the situation and play a positive role of some kind, even if not what others would prefer? A lot of social and cultural reasons. Most are a lot more understandable than readers (and writer) of this blog believe. Personally, I am intensely frustrated that they remain stuck where they are. But I know their society was in no position to respond to the war as all these commenters wish they would have. There were good options available to them and they failed miserably. But joining the evil Zionist army with community support was never going to happen. And there is no category in their mind for being both a Torah Jew and a Zionist so they cannot come to terms with the existence of a dati leumi community (again, all a generalization and not about individuals. But this is where the community is in this historical moment). It’s tragic, but it’s not the tragedy everyone here has written about.
True regarding what they *think*, but for the record most of the Old Yishuv became Zionists. The vast majority of charedim in Israel today are descended from people who came after Zionism began or even after 1948.
Really? Young chareidim know it? Then why aren't they signing up in droves for army service? Despite the thinness and oversimplification of that anti-zionist narrative-which is also an oversimplification of how chareidim themselves view it-, it's much more sophisticated than the infantile dati narrative here about chareidim!
What many in the dati community don't get, is that Chareidim consider the dati community "off the derech".
Lack of commitment to mitzvot and a terrible breach of tzinyut are some of the characteristics of the dati community. This is unacceptable to the Hareidi community.
"Commitment to mitzvot" depends on which mitzvot you choose, and even there most dati leumi are pretty committed, and lots of charedim aren't. As to tzniut (even defined very narrowly as how much of one's body is exposed), that's a laugh. Compare some charedi woman in a stunning wig and skintight dress to a "settler" in full headcovering and long skirt.
I'll take it a step further: There is nothing less tzanua than a burka lady, completely covered, being stared at by everyone.
"There is nothing less tzanua than a burka lady, completely covered, being stared at by everyone."
You know better than that. The Burqawitzes are not representative of Charedim extremism. On the other hand, the censoring of decently clad women from publications, a practice that didn't exist in the mainstream until the 90s- that's perversity. When a mainstream Charedi magazine prints a story critical of the Burqawitzes but illustrates it with BurqaBoobas, you're talking the depths of degradation.
Yes, so when you have two sides that consider each other off the derech, it's tremendously productive for one side to seethe and stew and rage and bellow and scream about how much they can't stand the other side. The verbal equivalent of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_room
We have somewhat different ideas regarding what G-d wants from us as religious Jews, but that's fine.
The problem isn't your perception of our Mitzva observance, or our perception of yours, but rather that there is a war going on in Israel right now, and one community doesn't seem to think it is their problem.
You can keep on telling yourselves your little stories, repeating your platitudes, continue to rage and scream and frustrate yourselves to no end, turn yourselves into emotional basket cases over the chareidim-as if Hamas wasn't enough. As the excellent poem above states "head meet wall, bone meet stone". Or you can take a break from that and try to understand.
Except when we "rage and scream", we limit things to words, and then we limit the words we use. We don't block the light rail or attack our ideological opponents on the street.
The following are comments from my wife. She asked that I post it for her.
I am dati leumi; I live in a Dati leumi yishuv that has experienced tragic combat losses from this war, and I am NOT furious or upset at chareidim. If someone doesn't want to be in combat because they are afraid, they should not be in combat. It will only demoralize the other soldiers and a fearful soldier is a serious liability to his unit.
In fact, the new draft law is really nothing new, at least to my understanding. In the past, chareidim were excused from the draft IF they can prove they are learning full-time. I don't have a problem with chareidim who are sincere full-time learners! The issue is that there are many young men who are unable or unwilling to learn with sincerity full-time. In the past, it was easy for them to ignore the draft. With the new law, the existing law that anyone not learning full time isn't exempt from the draft will simply be properly enforced.
But this brings me to what the IDF has to offer a chareidi bochur. For one thing, he can opt to do sherut leumi, national service. The list of possible positions within sherut leumi are literally endless, and include many chesed opportunities within emergency (ie MADA) services, working in a hospital, a school, with teens at risk, with special needs children, working with evacuees, even learning to become a tour guide, working for the police or government offices, bituach leumi, kupat cholim, etc etc. Many of these jobs both within the military as well as sherut leumi can lead to job opportunities when their service is complete - I know hareidim who trained as truck drivers, airplane mechanics, technicians, programmers and bureaucrats. I simply don't understand why no one is working with hareidim to encourage enrollment in sherut leumi - there are many valuable positions that can be filled to relieve Israel's manpower shortage and there will still be time to be kovea itim -setting aside time for learning Torah, being part of a minyan, etc.. Incidentally, there are many secular young men who opt for sherut leumi rather than do army service.
Yes, there will always be kitzonim (extremists) on both sides of the fence. But I believe they are the minority, no matter what side they are on. They simply are the loudest so they get heard and sensationalized by media anxious to stir up trouble. It's not productive to let our emotions get the best of us, especially now that things are so tenuous bein adam l'havero. That said, I find it difficult to accept that there are kehillot that do not include davening on behalf of soldiers as part of their prayers.
For anyone who wishes to create positive dialogue, there are amazing things happening in this country. I recommend an initiative (founded by a chareidi guy, btw) called Achdut Achshav (https://achdutnow.org.il) which brings people together all over Israel from Right/Left/Dati/Hareidi/Secular. We may not agree, but we can learn to get along.
there are many initiatives to involve hareidi, to find roles for them in sherut leumi. and as an aside, sherut leumi is not administered by the army. the hareidim Rabbis DO NOT WANT their talmidim to be involved with the rest of the country and discourage them from all such interactions. it is not the individuals, it's the leaders that are the problem. sure there is plenty of vocational training for hareidim. so they work, support their family while thousands of miluimnikim are struggling to keep their jobs and/or continue with their studies because they are fighting for our country. there is nothing that can justify the hareidi position
There's just one little problem: It is fundamentally unjust to say that just because of the circumstances of one's birth, one's obligations will be different. Lots of secular Israelis serve in non-combat roles. But there is no *rule* saying they do, and indeed many serve in combat roles.
Of course many religious *women* serve in Sherut Leumi. But that is because they declare, honestly, that their view of religion is that they cannot serve. Charedim will *never* go so far as to say the same about their men, even if it is, ultimately, true, and the real reason here.
It's also lies. We've been told for decades that it's all about Torah scholars being exempt as שבט לוי. Never mind that such notions have been refuted as incorrect.
But what's galling is that it's all lies, because we're being told now that non-learners should also be exempt at same time as hesder scholar must serve.
"Never mind that such notions have been refuted as incorrect."
Never
"Because we're being told now that non-learners should also be exempt "
That's because you guys lack reading comprehension and don't know left from right in the chareidi world. You are not aware that some chareidim seek to exempt the learners, and some seek to exempt even the non learners. "Hesder scholars" don't really register, chareidim don't know about them, they are all OTD as far as chareidim are concerned, and you guys are not doing a good job showing a different narrative.
1- Right..That is the difference between individuals and communities that we have talked about here so many times
2- If as many Hareidi men as Dati women served in Sherut Leumi, I think many of us would be satisfied that we are on our way to a solution. The point is that the Dati women don't say "army doesn't work for us, so we'll start university right after high school", but rather, almost all serve in a way that meets their religious standards.
I briefly looked at the Achdut Achshav website ... Based on the people on their steering committee, and the participating organizations (and some of the photos in the gallery), it seems to be mainly about secular / Hareidi dialogue. With the exception of Miriam Peretz, I don't see any Dati representation, and not a single major Dati organization (World Mizrachi, Bnei Akiva etc) is included.
Rav Aharon Lichtenstein who was Rosh Yeshiva of a major hesder yeshiva, once asked his students the following. Who do they relate more to? The chosid from Toldos Aharon in Meah Shearim or the Ashkenazi chiloni from Raman Gan who they do army service with? The majority answered the chiloni.
Rav Aharon explained how misguided that was. He said that on all the major issues we are in 100% agreement with the chosid. Belief in god, Torah revelation, prophesy, Halacha, Torah, shabbos kashrus, etc. We have a hashkafic dispute about how to deal with the state and modernity but that doesn’t change the fact that on the real important issues we agree. The chiloni on the other hand doesn’t share any of our core beliefs. He doesn’t believe in god, Torah, prophesy, Halacha, he doesn’t keep shabbos or kosher. We have nothing in common with him on the major issues. Yes we both serve in the army but that can’t paper over the fact that on every core belief we disagree.
Many of the commenters here seem to agree with the students.
Yes, we've all heard this. Leaving aside, of course, that this isn't a binary choice, here's the basic problem with it, though: R' Lichtenstein was a rosh yeshiva. He learned all day, was in yeshiva all day. To a certain extent, his activities and lifestyle weren't so different from that of a charedi rosh yeshiva. (To a *certain* extent, of course: A charedi rosh yeshiva, for example, doesn't have students dying in battle.) His interactions with secular Israel were relatively low. Indeed, the colleague of his from whom I heard this admitted that in many decades living in Israel, he himself didn't have one real conversation with a secular Israeli until a few years ago when he had a plumber over. (That must be an exaggeration, not to mention that most Israeli plumbers aren't "secular," but the point is there.)
Now take the average Dati Leumi Israeli: First, contrary to popular image, he does not serve in hesder. The vast majority of religious Israelis serve in the army in exactly the same units other Israelis do. So he spends three years living and fighting alongside secular Israelis. Then he goes to university, spends another three or four years living and studying alongside them. Then he goes to work, and spends all day in an office working with them, forming friendships and relationships.
The issue here is not on what "core issues" one agrees. (And, in fact, a large majority of Israelis *do* agree on basic ideas like God and even Torah, and very large numbers observe to one extent or another. Real "chilonim" are rare, and increasingly so.) "Core issues" in fact very seldom come up among friends. The issue is who one *relates* to. And the answer, for most religious Israelis, is pretty clear. And that's not "misguided." Yes, if one lives in a yeshiva and learns all day, sure, one might- *might*- "relate" to a charedi better. But most of us don't do that.
RAL was talking about core beliefs. A religious Jews core belief needs to be Torah and mitzvos. If your core belief is the primacy of Torah and mitzvos then yes, even if you serve with someone and work with them you should see yourself as separate from them. You have a completely different set of values then them. And yes, this applies to masoratim as well. I have worked many years both in the US and in Israel. And while I have done very well professionally moving up in the ranks, I have always felt and understood that I lived in a completely different world than my colleagues. My values and beliefs were totally different. They would go out drinking after work and I would go home to my wife and kids and my chavrusa. They could not understand why I woke up at 5:30 to have a chavrusa or why I couldn’t just login on shabbos to fix an urgent problem. I couldn’t go out to eat or drink with them. I couldn’t hug a female colleague or even give her a high five after solving a difficult problem. They couldn’t fathom why I had a large family. Our life should revolve around Torah and mitzvos and theirs don’t.
This is exactly why the charedim take a separatist approach. Because what you described is a disaster.
Again, you are mixing apples and oranges. I can relate to people I don't share beliefs with.
Also, it's kind of unfair that charedim can cut themselves off from society and then blame the dati leumi community for not relating to them well enough. Let *them* put in the effort.
Of course you can relate to them. The question is who do you feel closer to. RAL point was that we should feel closer to the person who shares our core values.
Also, "values" are not the same as "beliefs." Someone can learn all day and believe in God and wear tzitzit and still have very different values from another person who does the same.
And sometimes people *marry* people with different beliefs and values.
Why is it impossible? If you truly understand what is important in life, serving hashem through Torah and mitzvos then that is the lens that you view everything through.
If this represents the prevalent dati attitude, it is a terrible indictment of their community, and completely refutes all the disingenuous "we are just as religious, no, much MORE religious than you!" nonsense.
Relating to Israelis who serve in the army and work for a living vs. not relating to Charedim who refuse to have anything to do with the rest of Israeli society is a “terrible indictment” on the dati community? Please.
Yes if you see them as living in the same world as you. Their priorities are completely different then a Torah Jews. A Torah Jews priority is how do I serve hashem. How do I learn more Torah do more mitzvos get closer to hashem. Their priority is definitely not that. And what generally happens is that your priorities are affected by theirs and you become less religious etc.
Of course it is. What does that have to do with RAL point? That doesn’t change the fact that the religious Jew and the non religious Jew live in different worlds. The religious Jews core motivation should be to serve hashem as best as he can. That can be working and supporting your family and being מקיים ישוב הארץ, that can certainly be serving in the army. That can also be sitting and learning Torah. The non religious Jew doesn’t live in that world and doesn’t understand that. He doesn’t do things to serve hashem he does them for his own reasons. Just because you do the same thing as someone else doesn’t mean you are doing it for the same reason and have the same core values. In this case you don’t. And that is the RAL point. For all the machlokes between the DL and the charedim on the core there should be agreement. That our purpose in life is to serve hashem. There is a disagreement how that translates practically but it still just a dispute on a minor point. On the other hand the chiloni has a fundamentally different worldview.
This raises a fundamental question of identity. Are we Israelis, Americans, etc. who are religious Jews, meaning we share the same basic values and worldview of our fellow citizens but we just do mitzvos also. In other words our core identity is Israeli or American and additionally we keep shabbos etc. Or, are we religious Jews with a fundamentally different worldview than our fellow citizens. Our core identity is Judaism, that is what defines us and we have a very different worldview than our fellow citizens.
The way you described it the average dati leumi person is the first they see themselves as fundamentally Israeli who keeps mitzvos. That in my eyes (and in RAL eyes and I think the overwhelming majority of serious dati leumi rabbanim) is a fundamental misunderstanding of what being a religious Jew is and is a real tragedy.
Yes but unfortunately that is not Judaism. Judaism is centered around serving god. The Rambam, the great rationalist writes this about how we should feel about god.
וכיצד היא האהבה הראויה הוא שיאהב את ה' אהבה גדולה יתירה עזה מאוד עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת ה' ונמצא שוגה בה תמיד כאלו חולה חולי האהבה שאין דעתו פנויה מאהבת אותה אשה והוא שוגה בה תמיד בין בשבתו בין בקומו בין בשעה שהוא אוכל ושותה יתר מזה תהיה אהבת ה' בלב אוהביו שוגים בה תמיד כמו שצונו בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך והוא ששלמה אמר דרך משל כי חולת אהבה אני וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה.
Our whole life is supposed to revolve around god around Torah and mitzvos. The Rambam also writes that a person should work 3 hours a day and learn Torah 9 hours a day.
They live in Israeli society with eight million other Jews, so of course they see themselves as Israeli, and see that as their Judaism. That's part of what living in Israel is about.
A question this and your previous post begs is why does the anglo-orthadox world relate more with the Israel charedi world than with the dati-leumi world? The fact that pretty much all of the orthadox-aligned jewish publications in the UK (I presume US too, but as I live in the UK I'll restrict my comments to here) have a charedi lean to them (or are explicitly charedi) may be a cause or symptom of this, but why doesn't the Israeli dati-leumi world interact with the anglo-orthadox world anywhere near as much as the Israeli charedi world does?
I agree that the language barrier is part of the issue. But why does the charedi community put effort into producing (very high quality) English language content while the dati leumi community doesn't?
Personally I think that one of the big reasons for this is that the Israeli charedi world is financially dependent on the diaspora in a way that the dati leumi is not therefore the dati leumi community just doesn't see a need to engage with the diaspora to the same degree that the charedi does.
Of course the dati leumi community produces very high quality English language content, much of it, but far from all of it, translated from the Hebrew. Just look at Koren's catalog, for starters.
Yes, you are correct, Koren has published some beautiful English sefarim and I hope they continue. But they obviously have a long way to go to catch up with the likes of artscroll and so far as I am aware they don't have many (any?) English language books in fiction / biographies etc.
However what I was referring to was media not sefarim. In your typical frum UK household over shabbos people are reading Mishpacha, Ami, Hamodia and a plethora of other shorter publications. While there are some less charedi newspapers (JC etc) these aren't really of a religious bent (and many frummer families won't have them at all). There are a few more dati torah sheets (such as the BA one) and an irregular but very good Mizrachi magazine (although it's more of an in-depth high quality torah sheet than media per say), but so far as I am aware there are no equivalents to the ones I listed earlier but with a dati-leumi bent.
So frum families here simply aren't exposed to that world and the "default" "Torah" position on every topic is very charedi slanted.
It's a lot more than just publications too. Go to a typical "traditional" UK shul and you'll find the majority of the rabbinate are Charedi, Charedi adjacent or Chabad (and I'm talking about the type of shul where a high proportion of the membership aren't shomer shabbos; go to a frum shul and with maybe a dozen or so exceptions the rabbi will be straight out Charedi). Same with all the batei din, all the dayanim are Charedi (again one or two kind-of-exceptions).
This is a very old problem, much discussed. One cause, of course, is because non-charedi Orthodox Jews have a much wider range of reading options. They can read a secular magazine if they want.
Fair enough. But it seems to me that in Israel there are far more publications from that perspective but they tend not to be English language. Am I correct?
In חוץ לארץ theres much less of a מחלוקת and peeple slide right to avoid bad influences of media etc. MO dosent have a strong independent Torah world. YUs bais medrash is half chareidi.
We know far too many DL soldiers who were killed. Far too many DL wives of miluimnikim who are falling apart, kids who are suffering. Businesses which are falling apart because the owners are in miluim. And the chareidi population are just going about their lives as usual.
We know several couples who had to postpone their weddings because one or both of them are in miluim. Chareidi couples are not dealing with this. It's like their community is living in an entirely different universe.
There is of course the wee problem that there are (or were, see below) indeed Religious Zionists who are sympathetic to charedi claims. A tiny minority, basically some chardalim. I'm not sure why, maybe it's a simplistic religious worldview or maybe they see them (wrongly) as allies on other issues. (For the record, even Meretz engages in the latter sometimes, regarding other issues, with perhaps more justification.) Note of course that the hardcore chardalim are way overrepresented in Dati Leumi media and the like, have never won a Knesset seat on their own, and are only present in the Knesset because they piggyback onto another party. Ironically, they resemble left-wing datiim (Meimad etc.) in *all* of these characteristics. And I imagine that the vast majority of hardalim, and even the vast majority of the fringe, are unsympathetic to charedim, and even that tiny number has probably plunged to zero since October 7.
Except that there's apparently still *one* dati leumi person who feels that way, and due to various electoral vagaries, he's currently the Minister of Finance, about the third most powerful person in the government. And so Smotrich bizarrely continues to run interference for them. Why, I have no idea. It can't be because he's worried UTJ will pull out of the government- they aren't going anywhere. (And the second they leave, Lieberman or Sa'ar or whoever pops in.) Maybe it's that fear, if vestigial, or maybe it's that "They're learning, so it's all good" feeling you even see Aviner saying, or at least he said before a year ago. (Aviner several times has said that charedim represent "authentic" Judaism except nebach they don't serve.)
Again for the record, Smotrich doesn't even represent his own party's views, let along those of most DL. Ben-Gvir, who has very little love lost for charedim (and vice versa- the charedi parties, especially Shas, are terrified he'll steal their votes) definitely doesn't share this view, and polls show that if they ran separately, Ben-Gvir would do very well- much better than they are combined today- and Smotrich would barely clear the threshold if at all. (And contrary to popular believe, Otzma Yehudit is not a religious party.) Still, Smotrich is there, and there's part of the problem.
If it helps, I don't think the charedi world looks at Smotrich and thinks he represents anyone else. If they believe they're supported by DL, it's not because of those few chardalim.
" And so Smotrich bizarrely continues to run interference for them. Why, I have no idea. "
My own notion is that Bibi's success is that he is one half Machiavelli and one half Mr. Security. Putting the failures of Oct. 7 aside, as "Mr. Security" has been mostly successful in mitigating the disaster that is Oslo. But as Machiavelli, there is always a concern that he would put personal political survival ahead of his ideology. (Was that what happened with the Shalit deal?)
So people vote for Smotrich, who as an ideological purist can be trusted to keep the faith and would never sell for political expediency. Unfortunately, Smotrich's ideological faith is rather narrow, and while he wouldn't sell out an inch of a hilltop for any price- anything else can be sold for a bargain price.
Nah, I think it's a bit of a combination of "charedim are our natural allies, including on the gays" and "charedim are more authentic." He's not selling out.
Homosexuality can be opposed on quite a few rational grounds. (Not to mention that God Himself doesn't like it.) Do you really want me to list them? I mean, the fact that you use the loaded term "homophobia" indicates that you have an *irrational* support of the practice, but one can ask.
Also, you seem to have a reading comprehension problem: When something is in quotation marks, it is a sign that the argument of the *person in question* is being cited. You have a problem with what I wrote, take it up with Smotrich and the Noam party. You have a problem with the fact that people exist who hold those views, I can't help you.
"And I imagine that the vast majority of hardalim, and even the vast majority of the fringe, are unsympathetic to charedim, and even that tiny number has probably plunged to zero since October 7."
"Maybe it's that fear, if vestigial, or maybe it's that "They're learning, so it's all good" feeling you even see Aviner saying, or at least he said before a year ago. (Aviner several times has said that charedim represent "authentic" Judaism except nebach they don't serve.)"
You are of course mixing up polls (and off course there are always different polls) that combine them as before or show them separately. Most polls show over ten seats for Ben-Gvir and four or so for Smotrich.
You can also stop with the snide insults and beating one quote to death out of context and pretending it represents anything more than that.
Finally, leaving aside that whatever you dug up has nothing to do with what I wrote, I am amazed at how much free time some people, including you, seem to have. I barely have time to check *one* thread and keep up with it, and can't remember what someone wrote two days ago, and yet somehow you are able to instantly find something "appropriate" and a "rejoinder" (both only in your head) that I wrote a *month and a half ago* and throw it at me. What, do you have a *lot* of free time on your hands? Have you indexed every single comment on every single post and maintain a database for easy reference? Seriously. Are you a yeshiva bucher or something? Be honest.
"Most polls show over ten seats for Ben-Gvir and four or so for Smotrich."
I cited the poll aggregator. And 10 is still less than 14. You claimed that Ben Gvir alone would do better than the current combined list. You can go back and check https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-dati-community-is-furious/comment/66641178 if you can't remember. I know it's been a while since you wrote that. You probably trashed a few chardali rabbonim and several hundred thousand shomrei torah u'mitzvos in the interim.
"You can also stop with the snide insults"
I'll stop when you stop saying disgusting things about various groups I respect, Cossack nigzal.
"Finally, leaving aside that whatever you dug up has nothing to do with what I wrote,"
It has everything to do with what you wrote.
"(both only in your head)"
You can repeating that another 10 times. Won't make it true. But I guess that if you can't remember stuff you wrote, it might explain your incoherence. You aren't a hypocrite who trashes entire groups of Jews and then whines about people delegitimizing you. You just can't remember both sides of your hypocrisy, even when you engage in them both during the course of one comment.
"What, do you have a *lot* of free time on your hands? Have you indexed every single comment on every single post and maintain a database for easy reference?"
No, I simply checked my notification history and scrolled to your last reply to me. Took about 30 seconds.
"Are you a yeshiva bucher or something? Be honest."
Something. I work in City government, and have sundays off.
Correct. We actually went through this charade once before, but your memory being what it is, I expect you'll be coming back to this sort of line again sometime in the future. You'll snivel about how you're so holy, you spent the night in a bomb shelter etc etc.
"What did [Rabbi] Avigdor Miller [Zatzal] say about Sundays off? Ah, yes."
If charedim truly believed that they are on the frontlines of this war then bein hazmanim should have been cancelled (or more should have followed The Mir and deferred for a week) At minimum, vacations among the major yeshivas should gave been staggered such that there was always yeshivas learning. No army gives all of its soldiers off at once
Of course they're furious and disgusted. Just like in any area of politics, when you think half your country are a bunch of idiots, or to say it in more politically correct terms, when you really can't wrap your head around a different worldview, all it really means is that your missing some information. Once you get the other side, even if you strongly disagree, you probably won't be furious with them or disgusted by them anymore.
Silly example, I totally disagree with democrats about their disregard for the nuclear family and all the consequences of that. But that isn't to say that they don't have a lot of strong points regarding certain swaths of people. I strongly disagree with their conclusions, but I sympathize with them heavily, even despite the harm they're causing (and I'll add that I appreciate their concerns about the harm our side causes).
I strongly agree that the current Charedi situation is awful. But that doesn't mean they are "ununderstable". I challenge you to see it from their viewpoint, one which you may still very much conclude differently, for very good reason, but will at least lose the hate and try to enable change from within. I'd offer to write a guest post explaining the Charedi view a bit better (we can make it clear that this is not the view of the blog owner) and open up some finer discussions in place of the hate we have going on now.
Otoh, perhaps historically it's better if you guys continue to not understand because the passion behind the haters is how change is effected...
This reminds me of a Christian scholar I read who used to be a dyed-in-the-wool, “born-again”, fundamentalist evangelical (went to one of their “bible colleges”, etc) who gave up Christianity after he started “asking questions” (he is now a preeminent academic in the field of New Testament textual criticism).
He says he often encounters pity from his former co-religionists who are convinced that, despite his prior absolute adherence to their faith, he “must have never *really* had a ‘personal relationship’ with [Yoshke].”
then you don't know what politics are. same can be said of any dispute in values such as women's right, gun rights and so on. it's all values where the other side "doesn't get it", while what's really happening is that the opposing sides are too obtuse to see past their own nose.
i didn't say it's just politics, genius. in fact i said that politics are different people's opposing (most important life) values in a unified society.
Well, try setting out exactly what you are saying in clear bullet point form. Because right now you are obfuscating.
What is politics about chareidim refusing to share in the tribulations facing the rest of the country? What is politics about being forbidden to visit wounded soldiers? Why did you mention politics at all?
Yes, you've made your point about demography. Nice insight, worth thinking about. It seems a bit disingenuous to present it as "the chareidi community's plan to save Israel," as I've never ever heard the high birthrate encouraged for that reason (a point i think avraham may have made to you as well), but that doesn't change the fact that the point has merit.
The impression I've gotten from Shulman is that he's thoughtful about these issues, willing to acknowledge problems and flaws, and still sees the chareidi community as ideal, so I commented that I'd be curious to read what he has to say.
On second thought, i'd rather end this conversation. you're also welcome to submit a guest post; if its about demography; i'll likely skim it, note the same points youve made a number of times, and move on. I hope that's enough for you.
I will try to make חשבון הנפש for all my mistakes and I ask מחילה ברבים for all of them. I sincerely hope that sometime before יום הכפורים you will find it room your heart to forgive me.
1. I now believe that you really feel to be explaining Charedi hashkafa as (Israeli) Charedim themselves understand it. Who knows? You may be right. I don't read much Israeli Hashkafa (or hashkafa in general). Considering this, I was wrong for accusing you of being מוציא שם רע ברבים on Charedim. And I do believe your intention is לשם שמים.
2. Once you informed me that you don't want certain parts of the debate to be aired publicly I should have been extra careful to be sensitive on this. Unfortunately, I was not at all.
3. I am afraid that in the last comment I was עובר on הולך רכיל מגלה סוד.
4. I guess the fourth is that in general I should have thought through my comments very carefully to ensure that will be understood properly. Unfortunately, they were not understood properly, and that was properly due to lack of thought on my part.
I shall try to think of any other mistakes I may have made.
On all these I say חטאתי עויתי פשעתי and I can only hope to be זוכה to מחילה from you and from the רבש"ע.
I would add a simple point. During WWII, the Steipler didn't smoke. He felt that at a time of great danger to Klal Yisroel, it was improper to engage in that simple pleasure. For those who wonder what this has to do with your post, I'm referring to bein hazmanim singers and such entertainment during this time.
There were calls from the leadership to cancel בין הזמנים, and there were calls on חג to reduce leisure activities.
But let's face it. We're a weak generation who can't handle a little privation and there are no (few?) latter day R. Tzaddoks who spend all their days in fast and deprivation. How the soldiers manage it is another question.
I repeat a comment I wrote about a month ago. Thank you, Hamas, for saving the State of Israel from the Haredim. That, of course, is contingent on the Haredim not being in the next government because enough disgusted voters vote for parties that don't want Haredim in the government.
I'll put my two cents in from the other side. I'm an American mother of a yungerman learning in Israel. I've been sending my maaser money to causes like the FIDF instead of to them. Is that nothing? If I brought my tourist dollars to Israel, would that be nothing? I was actually there on October 7th because my grandson was born on October 5th. I donated blood and cleaned apartments for evacuees from the south. Are you all still disgusted with me?
There’s not a whole lot of comfort in that when you’re a member of the hated group. But I suppose discomfiting me was the point of the original article.
Well of course! You're not allowed to follow a different path otherwise they're disgusted with you. Painful as it may be, you're not entitled to a different worldview or you are the problem. Welcome to the slifkin world!
If you feel bad about your awful decision to follow the chareidi view even though they are so evil, I can provide a little chizuk.
Please don't take that sarcastic tone. It doesn't help the rift in klal Yisroel. I actually see their arguments. I recognize their greater sacrifice. But I don't want my son hated for learning.
By using the word "hated" you're already stacking the deck in your favor. Can't you appreciate that there are mothers out there fearing for their sons' lives, who might, at the very least, think there's something a little off that many mothers don't have to do so just based on their birth?
Apparently you have poor reading comprehension. I didn't write this post. It's a compilation of posts from other people.
Why did you ban him? It's a brilliant poem that perfectly captures the dati approach to hareidi army service!
Just curious, are you actually a chareidi troll?
What an important post indeed, finally someone in the "other" shomer mitzvot community speaking up!
The local chareidi Yeshiva faces the army cemetery - how bitterly ironic - how viciously evil when they hung miserable "pashkvilim" denouncing military service right across from our soldiers graves, יהי זכרם ברוך.
I grew up amongst the chareidim but went my own way to be shomeret mitzvot. When love of Torah, fear of G-d and Ahavat Chinam are inculcated, it doesn't really matter what garb you wear.
I interviewed some chareidim at a cyber company where I worked. I asked why the kids don't serve or at the very least do Sherut Leumi to give to their country.
A senior (chareidi) executive said to me "give back to this country? What has this country done for us".
Are there really any more words necessary?
Hey dear fellows, a response from an IDF combat veteran! https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/response-to-allegations-of-sinaat
That's rude. I'm not clicking on a link captioned by an empty clickbait slogan.
Please summarize the content.
Lol, if ur 2 lazy/impaired to click a link, ul be 2 lazy/impaired to follow a summary
Someone's too lazy to type out words like "your" and "to".
As much as I believe the Charedim have failed miserably in their response to the war, I am afraid these commenters do not recognize what the Charedim really believe. If they did, they would never have imagined they’d join the army in any significant way. Generally speaking (and this is all a generalization but it explains where the community as a whole is coming from), the Charedim believe they are the continuation of the old yishuv that long predated the State of Israel. And they see the Zionist government as an evil, hostile entity who took over the land with no right to sovereignty over them in any way. The Charedim deserve to live in the land and have zero obligation to this evil government. They sadly view the dati Leumi community as unfortunate dupes who tragically fell in with the evil Zionists and their evil government and evil army. The Charedim will never give up their G-d-given right to live in Eretz Yisrael and will also never give in to any pressure from the evil government to compromise their values. Why do they take support from the state? Why do they not recognize an obligation to their fellow Jews? Why have they not been able to find a way to make peace with the situation and play a positive role of some kind, even if not what others would prefer? A lot of social and cultural reasons. Most are a lot more understandable than readers (and writer) of this blog believe. Personally, I am intensely frustrated that they remain stuck where they are. But I know their society was in no position to respond to the war as all these commenters wish they would have. There were good options available to them and they failed miserably. But joining the evil Zionist army with community support was never going to happen. And there is no category in their mind for being both a Torah Jew and a Zionist so they cannot come to terms with the existence of a dati leumi community (again, all a generalization and not about individuals. But this is where the community is in this historical moment). It’s tragic, but it’s not the tragedy everyone here has written about.
True regarding what they *think*, but for the record most of the Old Yishuv became Zionists. The vast majority of charedim in Israel today are descended from people who came after Zionism began or even after 1948.
I agree that is the narrative.
I think, however, that this narrative is paper thin and the young charedim know this.
Really? Young chareidim know it? Then why aren't they signing up in droves for army service? Despite the thinness and oversimplification of that anti-zionist narrative-which is also an oversimplification of how chareidim themselves view it-, it's much more sophisticated than the infantile dati narrative here about chareidim!
Many actually showed up when they got draft notices, but were scared off by the Peleg. Not enough, of course.
Some do and others don't.
It is pathetically similar to the people in Gaza, it makes me so sad to say.
Only the brave stand up and then are ostracized.
I think you’re right. I really hope so.
" old yishuv"
Let's be honest. In light of what's in ארץ ישראל today, it wasn't much of a Yishuv.
But the immigration after the war was not from the "old"yishuv". Rather it's historical Galut. Do nothing but run to survive.
". The Charedim deserve to live in the land and have zero obligation to this evil government. "
That's stupid. I also have zero obligation to this gov't- and must certainly Shas and UTJ.
My obligations are to the Jewish community in general.
What many in the dati community don't get, is that Chareidim consider the dati community "off the derech".
Lack of commitment to mitzvot and a terrible breach of tzinyut are some of the characteristics of the dati community. This is unacceptable to the Hareidi community.
"Commitment to mitzvot" depends on which mitzvot you choose, and even there most dati leumi are pretty committed, and lots of charedim aren't. As to tzniut (even defined very narrowly as how much of one's body is exposed), that's a laugh. Compare some charedi woman in a stunning wig and skintight dress to a "settler" in full headcovering and long skirt.
I'll take it a step further: There is nothing less tzanua than a burka lady, completely covered, being stared at by everyone.
"There is nothing less tzanua than a burka lady, completely covered, being stared at by everyone."
You know better than that. The Burqawitzes are not representative of Charedim extremism. On the other hand, the censoring of decently clad women from publications, a practice that didn't exist in the mainstream until the 90s- that's perversity. When a mainstream Charedi magazine prints a story critical of the Burqawitzes but illustrates it with BurqaBoobas, you're talking the depths of degradation.
I sometimes think of whistling at them just to mess with their heads. I don't.
I take out my wand and shout "Expecto Patronum!". Once, one of them responded "very funny".
Three answers:
1) Earplugs
2) They don't know what whistling means
3) They do, and you're just encouraging them, giving them what they want: lascivious attention
In my experience, most women dress to look stylish, please their peer group,
and feel good about themselves. Lascivious male attention seems to be mostly an annoyance.
...and we consider the Hareidim way off the Derech in a lot of ways. So what?
Yes, so when you have two sides that consider each other off the derech, it's tremendously productive for one side to seethe and stew and rage and bellow and scream about how much they can't stand the other side. The verbal equivalent of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_room
Enjoy!
We have somewhat different ideas regarding what G-d wants from us as religious Jews, but that's fine.
The problem isn't your perception of our Mitzva observance, or our perception of yours, but rather that there is a war going on in Israel right now, and one community doesn't seem to think it is their problem.
You can keep on telling yourselves your little stories, repeating your platitudes, continue to rage and scream and frustrate yourselves to no end, turn yourselves into emotional basket cases over the chareidim-as if Hamas wasn't enough. As the excellent poem above states "head meet wall, bone meet stone". Or you can take a break from that and try to understand.
Except when we "rage and scream", we limit things to words, and then we limit the words we use. We don't block the light rail or attack our ideological opponents on the street.
Most charedim don't block the light rail either.
Yitzchak Rabin couldn't be reached for comment....
And visa versa
The following are comments from my wife. She asked that I post it for her.
I am dati leumi; I live in a Dati leumi yishuv that has experienced tragic combat losses from this war, and I am NOT furious or upset at chareidim. If someone doesn't want to be in combat because they are afraid, they should not be in combat. It will only demoralize the other soldiers and a fearful soldier is a serious liability to his unit.
In fact, the new draft law is really nothing new, at least to my understanding. In the past, chareidim were excused from the draft IF they can prove they are learning full-time. I don't have a problem with chareidim who are sincere full-time learners! The issue is that there are many young men who are unable or unwilling to learn with sincerity full-time. In the past, it was easy for them to ignore the draft. With the new law, the existing law that anyone not learning full time isn't exempt from the draft will simply be properly enforced.
But this brings me to what the IDF has to offer a chareidi bochur. For one thing, he can opt to do sherut leumi, national service. The list of possible positions within sherut leumi are literally endless, and include many chesed opportunities within emergency (ie MADA) services, working in a hospital, a school, with teens at risk, with special needs children, working with evacuees, even learning to become a tour guide, working for the police or government offices, bituach leumi, kupat cholim, etc etc. Many of these jobs both within the military as well as sherut leumi can lead to job opportunities when their service is complete - I know hareidim who trained as truck drivers, airplane mechanics, technicians, programmers and bureaucrats. I simply don't understand why no one is working with hareidim to encourage enrollment in sherut leumi - there are many valuable positions that can be filled to relieve Israel's manpower shortage and there will still be time to be kovea itim -setting aside time for learning Torah, being part of a minyan, etc.. Incidentally, there are many secular young men who opt for sherut leumi rather than do army service.
Yes, there will always be kitzonim (extremists) on both sides of the fence. But I believe they are the minority, no matter what side they are on. They simply are the loudest so they get heard and sensationalized by media anxious to stir up trouble. It's not productive to let our emotions get the best of us, especially now that things are so tenuous bein adam l'havero. That said, I find it difficult to accept that there are kehillot that do not include davening on behalf of soldiers as part of their prayers.
For anyone who wishes to create positive dialogue, there are amazing things happening in this country. I recommend an initiative (founded by a chareidi guy, btw) called Achdut Achshav (https://achdutnow.org.il) which brings people together all over Israel from Right/Left/Dati/Hareidi/Secular. We may not agree, but we can learn to get along.
there are many initiatives to involve hareidi, to find roles for them in sherut leumi. and as an aside, sherut leumi is not administered by the army. the hareidim Rabbis DO NOT WANT their talmidim to be involved with the rest of the country and discourage them from all such interactions. it is not the individuals, it's the leaders that are the problem. sure there is plenty of vocational training for hareidim. so they work, support their family while thousands of miluimnikim are struggling to keep their jobs and/or continue with their studies because they are fighting for our country. there is nothing that can justify the hareidi position
There's just one little problem: It is fundamentally unjust to say that just because of the circumstances of one's birth, one's obligations will be different. Lots of secular Israelis serve in non-combat roles. But there is no *rule* saying they do, and indeed many serve in combat roles.
Of course many religious *women* serve in Sherut Leumi. But that is because they declare, honestly, that their view of religion is that they cannot serve. Charedim will *never* go so far as to say the same about their men, even if it is, ultimately, true, and the real reason here.
It's also lies. We've been told for decades that it's all about Torah scholars being exempt as שבט לוי. Never mind that such notions have been refuted as incorrect.
But what's galling is that it's all lies, because we're being told now that non-learners should also be exempt at same time as hesder scholar must serve.
"Never mind that such notions have been refuted as incorrect."
Never
"Because we're being told now that non-learners should also be exempt "
That's because you guys lack reading comprehension and don't know left from right in the chareidi world. You are not aware that some chareidim seek to exempt the learners, and some seek to exempt even the non learners. "Hesder scholars" don't really register, chareidim don't know about them, they are all OTD as far as chareidim are concerned, and you guys are not doing a good job showing a different narrative.
Some seek not to exempt the non-learners? Who?
See letter from Rav Landau. It's about the Bnei Yeshivoss https://ynet-pic1.yit.co.il/cdn-cgi/image/f=auto,w=740,q=75/picserver5/crop_images/2024/07/11/r1KFhOnv0/r1KFhOnv0_0_0_1208_868_0_x-large.jpg
Has Rav Landau said that those not learning should draft? Of course he hasn't.
That's not the same thing.
1- Right..That is the difference between individuals and communities that we have talked about here so many times
2- If as many Hareidi men as Dati women served in Sherut Leumi, I think many of us would be satisfied that we are on our way to a solution. The point is that the Dati women don't say "army doesn't work for us, so we'll start university right after high school", but rather, almost all serve in a way that meets their religious standards.
I briefly looked at the Achdut Achshav website ... Based on the people on their steering committee, and the participating organizations (and some of the photos in the gallery), it seems to be mainly about secular / Hareidi dialogue. With the exception of Miriam Peretz, I don't see any Dati representation, and not a single major Dati organization (World Mizrachi, Bnei Akiva etc) is included.
Rav Aharon Lichtenstein who was Rosh Yeshiva of a major hesder yeshiva, once asked his students the following. Who do they relate more to? The chosid from Toldos Aharon in Meah Shearim or the Ashkenazi chiloni from Raman Gan who they do army service with? The majority answered the chiloni.
Rav Aharon explained how misguided that was. He said that on all the major issues we are in 100% agreement with the chosid. Belief in god, Torah revelation, prophesy, Halacha, Torah, shabbos kashrus, etc. We have a hashkafic dispute about how to deal with the state and modernity but that doesn’t change the fact that on the real important issues we agree. The chiloni on the other hand doesn’t share any of our core beliefs. He doesn’t believe in god, Torah, prophesy, Halacha, he doesn’t keep shabbos or kosher. We have nothing in common with him on the major issues. Yes we both serve in the army but that can’t paper over the fact that on every core belief we disagree.
Many of the commenters here seem to agree with the students.
Yes, we've all heard this. Leaving aside, of course, that this isn't a binary choice, here's the basic problem with it, though: R' Lichtenstein was a rosh yeshiva. He learned all day, was in yeshiva all day. To a certain extent, his activities and lifestyle weren't so different from that of a charedi rosh yeshiva. (To a *certain* extent, of course: A charedi rosh yeshiva, for example, doesn't have students dying in battle.) His interactions with secular Israel were relatively low. Indeed, the colleague of his from whom I heard this admitted that in many decades living in Israel, he himself didn't have one real conversation with a secular Israeli until a few years ago when he had a plumber over. (That must be an exaggeration, not to mention that most Israeli plumbers aren't "secular," but the point is there.)
Now take the average Dati Leumi Israeli: First, contrary to popular image, he does not serve in hesder. The vast majority of religious Israelis serve in the army in exactly the same units other Israelis do. So he spends three years living and fighting alongside secular Israelis. Then he goes to university, spends another three or four years living and studying alongside them. Then he goes to work, and spends all day in an office working with them, forming friendships and relationships.
The issue here is not on what "core issues" one agrees. (And, in fact, a large majority of Israelis *do* agree on basic ideas like God and even Torah, and very large numbers observe to one extent or another. Real "chilonim" are rare, and increasingly so.) "Core issues" in fact very seldom come up among friends. The issue is who one *relates* to. And the answer, for most religious Israelis, is pretty clear. And that's not "misguided." Yes, if one lives in a yeshiva and learns all day, sure, one might- *might*- "relate" to a charedi better. But most of us don't do that.
RAL was talking about core beliefs. A religious Jews core belief needs to be Torah and mitzvos. If your core belief is the primacy of Torah and mitzvos then yes, even if you serve with someone and work with them you should see yourself as separate from them. You have a completely different set of values then them. And yes, this applies to masoratim as well. I have worked many years both in the US and in Israel. And while I have done very well professionally moving up in the ranks, I have always felt and understood that I lived in a completely different world than my colleagues. My values and beliefs were totally different. They would go out drinking after work and I would go home to my wife and kids and my chavrusa. They could not understand why I woke up at 5:30 to have a chavrusa or why I couldn’t just login on shabbos to fix an urgent problem. I couldn’t go out to eat or drink with them. I couldn’t hug a female colleague or even give her a high five after solving a difficult problem. They couldn’t fathom why I had a large family. Our life should revolve around Torah and mitzvos and theirs don’t.
This is exactly why the charedim take a separatist approach. Because what you described is a disaster.
Again, you are mixing apples and oranges. I can relate to people I don't share beliefs with.
Also, it's kind of unfair that charedim can cut themselves off from society and then blame the dati leumi community for not relating to them well enough. Let *them* put in the effort.
Of course you can relate to them. The question is who do you feel closer to. RAL point was that we should feel closer to the person who shares our core values.
"Should" doesn't matter if it's impossible.
Also, "values" are not the same as "beliefs." Someone can learn all day and believe in God and wear tzitzit and still have very different values from another person who does the same.
And sometimes people *marry* people with different beliefs and values.
Why is it impossible? If you truly understand what is important in life, serving hashem through Torah and mitzvos then that is the lens that you view everything through.
If this represents the prevalent dati attitude, it is a terrible indictment of their community, and completely refutes all the disingenuous "we are just as religious, no, much MORE religious than you!" nonsense.
Relating to Israelis who serve in the army and work for a living vs. not relating to Charedim who refuse to have anything to do with the rest of Israeli society is a “terrible indictment” on the dati community? Please.
Yes if you see them as living in the same world as you. Their priorities are completely different then a Torah Jews. A Torah Jews priority is how do I serve hashem. How do I learn more Torah do more mitzvos get closer to hashem. Their priority is definitely not that. And what generally happens is that your priorities are affected by theirs and you become less religious etc.
How can I fulfill my responsibility to Am Yisrael is not a Torah Jew's priority?
Of course it is. What does that have to do with RAL point? That doesn’t change the fact that the religious Jew and the non religious Jew live in different worlds. The religious Jews core motivation should be to serve hashem as best as he can. That can be working and supporting your family and being מקיים ישוב הארץ, that can certainly be serving in the army. That can also be sitting and learning Torah. The non religious Jew doesn’t live in that world and doesn’t understand that. He doesn’t do things to serve hashem he does them for his own reasons. Just because you do the same thing as someone else doesn’t mean you are doing it for the same reason and have the same core values. In this case you don’t. And that is the RAL point. For all the machlokes between the DL and the charedim on the core there should be agreement. That our purpose in life is to serve hashem. There is a disagreement how that translates practically but it still just a dispute on a minor point. On the other hand the chiloni has a fundamentally different worldview.
This raises a fundamental question of identity. Are we Israelis, Americans, etc. who are religious Jews, meaning we share the same basic values and worldview of our fellow citizens but we just do mitzvos also. In other words our core identity is Israeli or American and additionally we keep shabbos etc. Or, are we religious Jews with a fundamentally different worldview than our fellow citizens. Our core identity is Judaism, that is what defines us and we have a very different worldview than our fellow citizens.
The way you described it the average dati leumi person is the first they see themselves as fundamentally Israeli who keeps mitzvos. That in my eyes (and in RAL eyes and I think the overwhelming majority of serious dati leumi rabbanim) is a fundamental misunderstanding of what being a religious Jew is and is a real tragedy.
Yes but unfortunately that is not Judaism. Judaism is centered around serving god. The Rambam, the great rationalist writes this about how we should feel about god.
וכיצד היא האהבה הראויה הוא שיאהב את ה' אהבה גדולה יתירה עזה מאוד עד שתהא נפשו קשורה באהבת ה' ונמצא שוגה בה תמיד כאלו חולה חולי האהבה שאין דעתו פנויה מאהבת אותה אשה והוא שוגה בה תמיד בין בשבתו בין בקומו בין בשעה שהוא אוכל ושותה יתר מזה תהיה אהבת ה' בלב אוהביו שוגים בה תמיד כמו שצונו בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך והוא ששלמה אמר דרך משל כי חולת אהבה אני וכל שיר השירים משל הוא לענין זה.
Our whole life is supposed to revolve around god around Torah and mitzvos. The Rambam also writes that a person should work 3 hours a day and learn Torah 9 hours a day.
I live in Israel
They live in Israeli society with eight million other Jews, so of course they see themselves as Israeli, and see that as their Judaism. That's part of what living in Israel is about.
Where do you live again?
A question this and your previous post begs is why does the anglo-orthadox world relate more with the Israel charedi world than with the dati-leumi world? The fact that pretty much all of the orthadox-aligned jewish publications in the UK (I presume US too, but as I live in the UK I'll restrict my comments to here) have a charedi lean to them (or are explicitly charedi) may be a cause or symptom of this, but why doesn't the Israeli dati-leumi world interact with the anglo-orthadox world anywhere near as much as the Israeli charedi world does?
I think it has to do with their lack of Hebrew. Haredi sources assume these people will never learn Hebrew, so they have more material in English.
I agree that the language barrier is part of the issue. But why does the charedi community put effort into producing (very high quality) English language content while the dati leumi community doesn't?
Personally I think that one of the big reasons for this is that the Israeli charedi world is financially dependent on the diaspora in a way that the dati leumi is not therefore the dati leumi community just doesn't see a need to engage with the diaspora to the same degree that the charedi does.
Of course the dati leumi community produces very high quality English language content, much of it, but far from all of it, translated from the Hebrew. Just look at Koren's catalog, for starters.
@Nachum
Yes, you are correct, Koren has published some beautiful English sefarim and I hope they continue. But they obviously have a long way to go to catch up with the likes of artscroll and so far as I am aware they don't have many (any?) English language books in fiction / biographies etc.
However what I was referring to was media not sefarim. In your typical frum UK household over shabbos people are reading Mishpacha, Ami, Hamodia and a plethora of other shorter publications. While there are some less charedi newspapers (JC etc) these aren't really of a religious bent (and many frummer families won't have them at all). There are a few more dati torah sheets (such as the BA one) and an irregular but very good Mizrachi magazine (although it's more of an in-depth high quality torah sheet than media per say), but so far as I am aware there are no equivalents to the ones I listed earlier but with a dati-leumi bent.
So frum families here simply aren't exposed to that world and the "default" "Torah" position on every topic is very charedi slanted.
It's a lot more than just publications too. Go to a typical "traditional" UK shul and you'll find the majority of the rabbinate are Charedi, Charedi adjacent or Chabad (and I'm talking about the type of shul where a high proportion of the membership aren't shomer shabbos; go to a frum shul and with maybe a dozen or so exceptions the rabbi will be straight out Charedi). Same with all the batei din, all the dayanim are Charedi (again one or two kind-of-exceptions).
This is a very old problem, much discussed. One cause, of course, is because non-charedi Orthodox Jews have a much wider range of reading options. They can read a secular magazine if they want.
Fair enough. But it seems to me that in Israel there are far more publications from that perspective but they tend not to be English language. Am I correct?
In חוץ לארץ theres much less of a מחלוקת and peeple slide right to avoid bad influences of media etc. MO dosent have a strong independent Torah world. YUs bais medrash is half chareidi.
Thank you for publishing this. So important.
We know far too many DL soldiers who were killed. Far too many DL wives of miluimnikim who are falling apart, kids who are suffering. Businesses which are falling apart because the owners are in miluim. And the chareidi population are just going about their lives as usual.
We know several couples who had to postpone their weddings because one or both of them are in miluim. Chareidi couples are not dealing with this. It's like their community is living in an entirely different universe.
There is of course the wee problem that there are (or were, see below) indeed Religious Zionists who are sympathetic to charedi claims. A tiny minority, basically some chardalim. I'm not sure why, maybe it's a simplistic religious worldview or maybe they see them (wrongly) as allies on other issues. (For the record, even Meretz engages in the latter sometimes, regarding other issues, with perhaps more justification.) Note of course that the hardcore chardalim are way overrepresented in Dati Leumi media and the like, have never won a Knesset seat on their own, and are only present in the Knesset because they piggyback onto another party. Ironically, they resemble left-wing datiim (Meimad etc.) in *all* of these characteristics. And I imagine that the vast majority of hardalim, and even the vast majority of the fringe, are unsympathetic to charedim, and even that tiny number has probably plunged to zero since October 7.
Except that there's apparently still *one* dati leumi person who feels that way, and due to various electoral vagaries, he's currently the Minister of Finance, about the third most powerful person in the government. And so Smotrich bizarrely continues to run interference for them. Why, I have no idea. It can't be because he's worried UTJ will pull out of the government- they aren't going anywhere. (And the second they leave, Lieberman or Sa'ar or whoever pops in.) Maybe it's that fear, if vestigial, or maybe it's that "They're learning, so it's all good" feeling you even see Aviner saying, or at least he said before a year ago. (Aviner several times has said that charedim represent "authentic" Judaism except nebach they don't serve.)
Again for the record, Smotrich doesn't even represent his own party's views, let along those of most DL. Ben-Gvir, who has very little love lost for charedim (and vice versa- the charedi parties, especially Shas, are terrified he'll steal their votes) definitely doesn't share this view, and polls show that if they ran separately, Ben-Gvir would do very well- much better than they are combined today- and Smotrich would barely clear the threshold if at all. (And contrary to popular believe, Otzma Yehudit is not a religious party.) Still, Smotrich is there, and there's part of the problem.
If it helps, I don't think the charedi world looks at Smotrich and thinks he represents anyone else. If they believe they're supported by DL, it's not because of those few chardalim.
" And so Smotrich bizarrely continues to run interference for them. Why, I have no idea. "
My own notion is that Bibi's success is that he is one half Machiavelli and one half Mr. Security. Putting the failures of Oct. 7 aside, as "Mr. Security" has been mostly successful in mitigating the disaster that is Oslo. But as Machiavelli, there is always a concern that he would put personal political survival ahead of his ideology. (Was that what happened with the Shalit deal?)
So people vote for Smotrich, who as an ideological purist can be trusted to keep the faith and would never sell for political expediency. Unfortunately, Smotrich's ideological faith is rather narrow, and while he wouldn't sell out an inch of a hilltop for any price- anything else can be sold for a bargain price.
Nah, I think it's a bit of a combination of "charedim are our natural allies, including on the gays" and "charedim are more authentic." He's not selling out.
Homosexuality can be opposed on quite a few rational grounds. (Not to mention that God Himself doesn't like it.) Do you really want me to list them? I mean, the fact that you use the loaded term "homophobia" indicates that you have an *irrational* support of the practice, but one can ask.
Also, you seem to have a reading comprehension problem: When something is in quotation marks, it is a sign that the argument of the *person in question* is being cited. You have a problem with what I wrote, take it up with Smotrich and the Noam party. You have a problem with the fact that people exist who hold those views, I can't help you.
I guess they didn't talk about quotation marks at JTS 🤣🤣🤣
He's a British charedi troll.
"polls show that if they ran separately, Ben-Gvir would do very well- much better than they are combined today-"
Not true. Polls show they get around 8.5 seats. Tzioyonut ha'datit currently has 14.
(In case you missed out on core curriculum, 8.5 is less than 14....)
https://themadad.com/polls26/
"And I imagine that the vast majority of hardalim, and even the vast majority of the fringe, are unsympathetic to charedim, and even that tiny number has probably plunged to zero since October 7."
This is false. Demonstrably so.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/mission-impossible-f06/comment/62410245
"Maybe it's that fear, if vestigial, or maybe it's that "They're learning, so it's all good" feeling you even see Aviner saying, or at least he said before a year ago. (Aviner several times has said that charedim represent "authentic" Judaism except nebach they don't serve.)"
Nachum, meet Nachum:
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/herzl-and-the-rabbits/comment/62315886
"But sure, keep looking at the negatives! It's sooooo healthy, and such a great excuse!"
You are of course mixing up polls (and off course there are always different polls) that combine them as before or show them separately. Most polls show over ten seats for Ben-Gvir and four or so for Smotrich.
You can also stop with the snide insults and beating one quote to death out of context and pretending it represents anything more than that.
Finally, leaving aside that whatever you dug up has nothing to do with what I wrote, I am amazed at how much free time some people, including you, seem to have. I barely have time to check *one* thread and keep up with it, and can't remember what someone wrote two days ago, and yet somehow you are able to instantly find something "appropriate" and a "rejoinder" (both only in your head) that I wrote a *month and a half ago* and throw it at me. What, do you have a *lot* of free time on your hands? Have you indexed every single comment on every single post and maintain a database for easy reference? Seriously. Are you a yeshiva bucher or something? Be honest.
Yes I've also been wondering about that!
If you don't have time to do that for your own blog (which of course makes sense), then kal v'chomer others shouldn't.
"If you don't have time to do that for your own blog (which of course makes sense), then kal v'chomer others shouldn't."
The obvious pircha is that I don't spend hours on end for years on end writing lengthy blog posts. Takes much less time to comment.
"Yes I've also been wondering about that!"
Don't you have more important things to wonder about?
Maybe he just has a better memory than you
Read what Sherlock Holmes had to say about that.
"Most polls show over ten seats for Ben-Gvir and four or so for Smotrich."
I cited the poll aggregator. And 10 is still less than 14. You claimed that Ben Gvir alone would do better than the current combined list. You can go back and check https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-dati-community-is-furious/comment/66641178 if you can't remember. I know it's been a while since you wrote that. You probably trashed a few chardali rabbonim and several hundred thousand shomrei torah u'mitzvos in the interim.
"You can also stop with the snide insults"
I'll stop when you stop saying disgusting things about various groups I respect, Cossack nigzal.
"Finally, leaving aside that whatever you dug up has nothing to do with what I wrote,"
It has everything to do with what you wrote.
"(both only in your head)"
You can repeating that another 10 times. Won't make it true. But I guess that if you can't remember stuff you wrote, it might explain your incoherence. You aren't a hypocrite who trashes entire groups of Jews and then whines about people delegitimizing you. You just can't remember both sides of your hypocrisy, even when you engage in them both during the course of one comment.
"What, do you have a *lot* of free time on your hands? Have you indexed every single comment on every single post and maintain a database for easy reference?"
No, I simply checked my notification history and scrolled to your last reply to me. Took about 30 seconds.
"Are you a yeshiva bucher or something? Be honest."
Something. I work in City government, and have sundays off.
Ah, you don't live in Israel. What did Avigdor Miller say about Sundays off? Ah, yes.
"Ah, you don't live in Israel."
Correct. We actually went through this charade once before, but your memory being what it is, I expect you'll be coming back to this sort of line again sometime in the future. You'll snivel about how you're so holy, you spent the night in a bomb shelter etc etc.
"What did [Rabbi] Avigdor Miller [Zatzal] say about Sundays off? Ah, yes."
Tell me, tell me! Don't hold back!
You don't deserve the satisfaction. Go practice your superciliousness on your "City" colleagues.
By the way, do you have a link to any actual polls showing Ben Gvir getting 15+ seats? Or was that another misremember on your part?
no not furious
foaming at the mouth , all that religous postering
an obscenity
Moshe S
If charedim truly believed that they are on the frontlines of this war then bein hazmanim should have been cancelled (or more should have followed The Mir and deferred for a week) At minimum, vacations among the major yeshivas should gave been staggered such that there was always yeshivas learning. No army gives all of its soldiers off at once
Of course they're furious and disgusted. Just like in any area of politics, when you think half your country are a bunch of idiots, or to say it in more politically correct terms, when you really can't wrap your head around a different worldview, all it really means is that your missing some information. Once you get the other side, even if you strongly disagree, you probably won't be furious with them or disgusted by them anymore.
Silly example, I totally disagree with democrats about their disregard for the nuclear family and all the consequences of that. But that isn't to say that they don't have a lot of strong points regarding certain swaths of people. I strongly disagree with their conclusions, but I sympathize with them heavily, even despite the harm they're causing (and I'll add that I appreciate their concerns about the harm our side causes).
I strongly agree that the current Charedi situation is awful. But that doesn't mean they are "ununderstable". I challenge you to see it from their viewpoint, one which you may still very much conclude differently, for very good reason, but will at least lose the hate and try to enable change from within. I'd offer to write a guest post explaining the Charedi view a bit better (we can make it clear that this is not the view of the blog owner) and open up some finer discussions in place of the hate we have going on now.
Otoh, perhaps historically it's better if you guys continue to not understand because the passion behind the haters is how change is effected...
Plenty of people understand the charedi viewpoint, including me. I used to espouse it!
You love saying that as if as an "ex-chareidi" you know the "truth", but while you used to espouse it but you never really got it:(
And if you got it, do explain!
Ohhh, of course, he never *really* got it…
This reminds me of a Christian scholar I read who used to be a dyed-in-the-wool, “born-again”, fundamentalist evangelical (went to one of their “bible colleges”, etc) who gave up Christianity after he started “asking questions” (he is now a preeminent academic in the field of New Testament textual criticism).
He says he often encounters pity from his former co-religionists who are convinced that, despite his prior absolute adherence to their faith, he “must have never *really* had a ‘personal relationship’ with [Yoshke].”
We can play the game. Or we can talk.
Yeah, this is a charedi troll, folks.
"Just like in any area of politics"
It's not politics though. You just don't get it.
then you don't know what politics are. same can be said of any dispute in values such as women's right, gun rights and so on. it's all values where the other side "doesn't get it", while what's really happening is that the opposing sides are too obtuse to see past their own nose.
Well, if you want to concede that chareidisism is just politics, go for it. They claim 'choreid al devar Hashem' has something to do with it too.
i didn't say it's just politics, genius. in fact i said that politics are different people's opposing (most important life) values in a unified society.
Well, try setting out exactly what you are saying in clear bullet point form. Because right now you are obfuscating.
What is politics about chareidim refusing to share in the tribulations facing the rest of the country? What is politics about being forbidden to visit wounded soldiers? Why did you mention politics at all?
I'd be curious to read this
Unfortunately they're not. They'd just rather play the game and obfuscate the situation with unrelated incidents about christians:(
Yes, you've made your point about demography. Nice insight, worth thinking about. It seems a bit disingenuous to present it as "the chareidi community's plan to save Israel," as I've never ever heard the high birthrate encouraged for that reason (a point i think avraham may have made to you as well), but that doesn't change the fact that the point has merit.
The impression I've gotten from Shulman is that he's thoughtful about these issues, willing to acknowledge problems and flaws, and still sees the chareidi community as ideal, so I commented that I'd be curious to read what he has to say.
On second thought, i'd rather end this conversation. you're also welcome to submit a guest post; if its about demography; i'll likely skim it, note the same points youve made a number of times, and move on. I hope that's enough for you.
OK. I deleted all my comments.
I will try to make חשבון הנפש for all my mistakes and I ask מחילה ברבים for all of them. I sincerely hope that sometime before יום הכפורים you will find it room your heart to forgive me.
1. I now believe that you really feel to be explaining Charedi hashkafa as (Israeli) Charedim themselves understand it. Who knows? You may be right. I don't read much Israeli Hashkafa (or hashkafa in general). Considering this, I was wrong for accusing you of being מוציא שם רע ברבים on Charedim. And I do believe your intention is לשם שמים.
2. Once you informed me that you don't want certain parts of the debate to be aired publicly I should have been extra careful to be sensitive on this. Unfortunately, I was not at all.
3. I am afraid that in the last comment I was עובר on הולך רכיל מגלה סוד.
4. I guess the fourth is that in general I should have thought through my comments very carefully to ensure that will be understood properly. Unfortunately, they were not understood properly, and that was properly due to lack of thought on my part.
I shall try to think of any other mistakes I may have made.
On all these I say חטאתי עויתי פשעתי and I can only hope to be זוכה to מחילה from you and from the רבש"ע.
I would add a simple point. During WWII, the Steipler didn't smoke. He felt that at a time of great danger to Klal Yisroel, it was improper to engage in that simple pleasure. For those who wonder what this has to do with your post, I'm referring to bein hazmanim singers and such entertainment during this time.
There were calls from the leadership to cancel בין הזמנים, and there were calls on חג to reduce leisure activities.
But let's face it. We're a weak generation who can't handle a little privation and there are no (few?) latter day R. Tzaddoks who spend all their days in fast and deprivation. How the soldiers manage it is another question.
Weak is the word, all right.
I repeat a comment I wrote about a month ago. Thank you, Hamas, for saving the State of Israel from the Haredim. That, of course, is contingent on the Haredim not being in the next government because enough disgusted voters vote for parties that don't want Haredim in the government.
No, sorry. We are furious at the Hareidim for not understanding what it means to be part of the Jewish people, but we don't thank Hamas for anything
"Thank you, Hamas, for saving the State of Israel from the Haredim. "
That's rather nasty. You shouldn't be thanking Hamas for anything.
I'll put my two cents in from the other side. I'm an American mother of a yungerman learning in Israel. I've been sending my maaser money to causes like the FIDF instead of to them. Is that nothing? If I brought my tourist dollars to Israel, would that be nothing? I was actually there on October 7th because my grandson was born on October 5th. I donated blood and cleaned apartments for evacuees from the south. Are you all still disgusted with me?
Why would anyone be disgusted with you? You are not an Israeli citizen, and even if you were, they wouldn't accept you into קרבי.
So are they disgusted with my son? To me, that's just as painful.
It's not about individuals. It's about a group.
There’s not a whole lot of comfort in that when you’re a member of the hated group. But I suppose discomfiting me was the point of the original article.
If you don't believe that charedi citizens of Israel should be exempt from serving, then you're not part of the hated group.
There is a fundemental difference. The biggest racist will concede that some blacks are ok.
If he's not an Israeli citizen, then he's another tourist.
Well of course! You're not allowed to follow a different path otherwise they're disgusted with you. Painful as it may be, you're not entitled to a different worldview or you are the problem. Welcome to the slifkin world!
If you feel bad about your awful decision to follow the chareidi view even though they are so evil, I can provide a little chizuk.
Please don't take that sarcastic tone. It doesn't help the rift in klal Yisroel. I actually see their arguments. I recognize their greater sacrifice. But I don't want my son hated for learning.
Is your son an Israeli citizen?
No. He’s one of those people one of your respondents described as living and learning in Ramat Eshkol in a spiritual dream world.
By using the word "hated" you're already stacking the deck in your favor. Can't you appreciate that there are mothers out there fearing for their sons' lives, who might, at the very least, think there's something a little off that many mothers don't have to do so just based on their birth?
Except this whole article is about how people now hate Chareidim. To late to change the goalposts
I absolutely appreciate that.
you're right, sorry. i responded poorly before. you should have a lot of nachas from your son!
Amen. You from your kids.