The Dati Community is Furious

And disgusted.

In my previous post, The Delusion About Dati’im, I noted a striking phenomenon: many Anglo-Charedim in Israel are under the impression that the dati community is fine with the charedi community not serving in the IDF and that there is achdus. I pointed out that, by and large, the dati community is furious with the charedi community.

Apparently I struck a chord.

I was deluged with comments from people in the dati community expressing how angry and disgusted they really are. Here are some of the responses (if you don’t read them all, at least make sure to read the last three):

“As a brother of a fallen soldier, I can tell you from the thousands of people ive met in the past 8 months, that we're all disgusted and ashamed of the chareidi lifestyle, ignoring the most basic of Jewish requirements of taking part of fighting our enemies and defending our land, our people and our nation.” - Doron Chitiz

“This is one of the most important blogs you have written. Such a tragic state of affairs. Part of the backlash is the depth of the narrative that many in the DL have been in this far regards the Haredi community.” - Daniel Goldman

“I totally agree. Ok, it's probably not 100%, it's probably more like 97%. Good emough though. I think Israeli charedim realise it, which is why they resent us so much (also because we show them up as liars when they claim they can't fight because Torah). I think you're right that Anglo chareidm don't realise it.” - Amanda Bradley

“I studied in Haredi yeshivas here, and I'm disgusted. But it's a delusional cult, apparently. The funny thing is, I used to defend Haredism...” - Meir Green

“It's part of the whole bubble thing, if you only read one newspaper, and stay away from social media BC you're too pure, how will you know about the mothers who stood outside a yeshiva? How will you know about their pain? Parents have been broken hearted for months and talking but the Anglo charedi cannot listen if they are not present. Being present is part of arevut. Hearing. Listening. Pretending that your child learning is comforting is like going to a shiva and throwing out tactless comments. We are in shock. Those whose kids' paths include service do not feel comforted by this. Saying that we want them to be secular is just as bad any ridiculous conspiracy theory. Try harder and shape the maslul, throw your lot in with us like some Druze and Arabs. It will only hurt us all if it doesn't happen.” - Rifki Orzech

“I agree with every word you wrote. The dati leumi community in my town are furious. And if I may add, I am astonished at the young Americans living for years in Remat Eshkol, husbands going to kollel, avoiding Israeli citizenship, ...... how do they justify this? Is this a spiritual Disney World for 5 years, 10 years... until their parents in the United States can't afford to keep supporting them? And then they go home to Lakewood or Monsey or Baltimore to reality? How is this lifestyle financed? How do they spend their days convincing themselves that they have no responsibility to this country. That they can be perpetual guests? I can say so much more.” - Gavriela Teicher

“Yes. 100%. Anglos seem entirely unaware. Even the language which they use comes across as tone deaf as they fundraise for yeshivot or try to get people together to say tehillim, referring to their efforts as the most important life-saving action possible.” - Esther Zohara Aiello

“Furious. I was well before October 7. Then I dared to hope that the tragedy and danger we face would change things, and it hasn't, so now the fury has been joined by disgust. The haredi community at large (obviously excepting the tiny number who do serve), for their shirking of responsibility and disregard of the other citizens of the country, are a huge chilul Hashem.” - Deborah Meghnagi Bailey

“Excellent and insightful post. My one quibble is that while some secular Jews, as you correctly assert, are unfortunately under the impression that the Chareidi position is an essential part of Torah Judaism, I think that many others simply wrote off the Chareidi community years ago. The reason that they're less upset than the dati leumi world is because they always knew that this would happen, and, unlike many in the dati leumi world, had zero expectations that there would be a different response.” - Scott Kahn

“Please add me to your growing list of people who are upset. I know that I am not allowed to hate, and I honestly feel that I do not hate. But I *am* upset, and I did feel let down by my Charedi brothers at the beginning of the war. Adding to this the history of Charedi leaders' decisions in the Shoah and during Covid (just two instances), I now do not expect anything from this community. After months of serving in a reserve combat unit, I am no longer let down. I do not look with awe towards any Charedi leaders. They may be experts at *learning* Torah, but they get an F for *living* Torah. My own commander is a Rav and an amazing Talmid Chacham who teaches in a yeshiva, and the watershed post-war moments have made me change my avenue of respect. This great man has a brilliant military history, and not only knows how to *learn* Torah, but he *lives* it. These are now my role models, these great men now have my utmost respect, and while I refuse to hate my Charedi brothers, I really don't want anything to do with them... at least as long as the war is going on. They have once again missed a great chance to do a huge mitzvah, and have caused an unfathomable amount of Chilul Hashem. You hit it right on the head: I would never confront a Charedi person and express myself! I'll let Hashem do that (and you, too, as a faithful messenger).” - M

“I am so glad that you wrote this and expressed exactly what is simmering underneath. I just had this exact conversation with someone yesterday - including mentioning the cartoon from Makor Rishon which is an honest and true portrayal of the situation. I am surrounded by wonderful, Torani Dati Leumi families who have sons fighting for months, including two friends who have LOST sons, and my Anglo-Charedi family and friends continue to turn their backs on the entire situation. I too have stopped socializing with certain people because I just can no longer stomach it. The feelings of frustration, pain, and anger are very real.” - Chaya D

“Count this Dati-Leumi guy as livid and appalled.  3 sons-in-law served proudly in various roles since 10/7 in and out of Gaza.  1 infantry, 1 Misha’s hagvul officer (non-combat), and one an officer in 8200. Most sympathy with the hareidi community long gone.” - S

“You are totally correct. I think most people have very little personal interaction with the Hareidi world overall… As you drive through Geula you see the different garb, but it is fine. You see the men outside smoking and teens trying to manage large numbers of children. But until now, you felt if that is how they want to live ok. They did not verbalize that their studies are more valuable/meaningful than that of the dati leumi. All that changed on Oct. 7. But when the rest of the country (excluding Hareidim and Tel Avivnics (another problem) ran to Otaf Aza and showed up for miluim in unprecedented numbers. you could no longer overlook the feeling that this segment of society was taking but not contributing. I want to acknowledge that some of the Anglo chareidim did chesed for the soldiers, but not the rest. When they complained because they did not get the extra money promised to them, for me that was a final straw. Not only did they not contribute to the war effort, but they wanted to get more money when everyone else was making huge sacrifices. The assertion that their studies are “better” was just insulting. The icing on the cake as my son got a new tzav 8 after already serving in miluim for for 7 months was that Haredim needed their vacation bein hazmanim. I guess the soldiers whom the Hareidi studies protected, are now on their own. What a joke. Sorry for the rant, but it is unconscionable that they not contribute to Israel.” - B

“You can add this Modern Orthodox American Jew. During COVID I wrote articles defending the chareidi decisions about continuing with public gatherings, feeling that if they wanted to expose themselves to that danger because they thought the Torah required it, that decision should be respected. But I am revulsed by their decision about the army. And no, to my sorrow and shame, I did not go to the army. But two of my children did.” - J

“I would guess that most dati-leumi people in Israel either know someone killed or seriously injured or are one level removed. In my home town of Raanana several dati-leumi have been killed. In addition to those hundreds listed in the papers as killed there are many thousands that are very seriously wounded with missing limbs. I have a grandson in Gaza and people in the family don't sleep well at night for months. This all leads to being "upset" at the charedi community - they mostly have not been been affected by the war. I am especially upset at the summer camps for yeshiva boys in bein hazmanim with singers and other entertainment. To see the feelings I suggest various "alonim" like Matzav Haruach.” - Eli Turkel

“You note that “they have been avoiding socializing with their relatives since October 7th״ - Very close relatives like siblings. And even friends. When we lost a cherished member of our community. A soldier who was only 21 years old. Killed by an RPG to his armored vehicle. Someone who was very close friends with my son. It broke us. I couldn’t talk to my sister in-laws whose children have made a conscious decision to learn Torah instead of fighting for klal yisrael. Not only that but they didn’t call nor did their children who were not fighting. It’s as if they have no connection to what we are going through. Since then I had a very hard time davening at Massas Mordechai in RBS. I felt that all the charedim and black hatters davening with all their kavana are fakers. Their tehillim seemed empty. Sorry that’s how we feel. And many dati leumi feel the same.” - Ari

“יישר כחך. I have been working hard to convince my friends in the American Agudah that they need to understand the huge loss of support from the religious Zionist community that has happened in the past few months. Their comeback is that they can’t engage the issue at all because the “gedolim” decide everything for them. I have to say that they are somewhat protected by the milquetoast attitude of American modern Orthodox organizations like the OU, which is still fixated on a one-way display of unity and respect.” - S

“(Responding to a chareidi commentator who professed that charedim love dati’im) - That's not love, that's lip service. Love comes from the word הב, to give. You need to be willing to give, to sacrifice, for those you love. You're saying it to make yourself feel good, and maybe are using it in some perverse way to try and get the moral upper hand... "look, you guys are full of hate and we are full of love... another example of how we the Charedim are better than you lowly dati leumim." But that's not love. That's like a wife asking her husband to help her and he responds "but I love you, isn't that enough?" Love without action is nothing. Love without sacrifice is meaningless. If you say you love us without doing anything different, then you just love yourself and you're trying to make yourself feel good about it.” - RC

I think that it’s extremely important for the Dati-Leumi community to make its voice heard.

A full list of my posts on the topic of IDF service is at Torah and Army: The Big Index