The country is moved by the charedi response and the media is full of positive stories. This realy ticks off Slifkin and he goes off shooting out posts to incite, bismerch, divide while twisting and misrepresenting the reality. He can't stand that the charedim are integrating and uses every opportynity to be מסית ומדיח.
Watch these clips to see what is happening in reality and compare it to Slifkin's take.
Thank your for perfectly illustrating my point. You accuse me of twisting and misrepresenting reality, while simultaneously you make it clear that you are only interested in stories of charedim contributing and you want to squelch any contrary evidence.
Because it's a slow evolutionary process and the problems are well known. My chiloni family and friends love what's happening and appreciate the progress. They welcome the charedi participation. One of them, a 70 year old former officer in the tank corpse who fought in כיתת הכוננות on 7/10, is excited about the progress and no one counts how many charedim had died in the war compared to the other sectors of the population. Everyone I know from the non-charedi demographic is positive and welcoming. Listen to what the army officers and שלב ב soldiers are saying about their feelings and motivation. This is how progress is made. You behaviour is irrational and you need counciling. Can't you write about your freaking animals and stop trying to stir the pot of machlokes and hatred? Do a post on a wombat or a peraniah.
And it comes naturally to people who had never put on a tefilin. Incidentally, my son is in כיתת הכוננות and my grandson is in the army. Charedim come to visit my son's lonely farm and one family even stayed over for the night for the expirience.
To be busy with stirring up hatred at the times of war is the evil way of Haaretz, Israeli left and a Neturei Karta fringe.
Evaluate his points and statements. Do they have validity? If so, I would call him a brave soul that is doing the Jewish world a favor. If you are a credentialed psychologist, then let's hear your proofs for mental illness. Seems rather simple to me. You up for the challenge?
Yeah, I'm literally licking my chops and drooling! But of course, I'm not a bored, bitter, and obsessed Charedi hater, I'm just trying to promote hate of things that need to be hated in order to create REAL peace! Mi k'amkha Yisrael!
Well being that this site follows the ethos of Maimonides and the Rationalist Rishonim, we must indeed take note of what their approach would have been vis-a-vis the Haredim. As Maimonides said, "Accept the truth from one who speaks it". We can take a lesson from Hamas, although they are evil and we need to defeat them. In the same way they are trying to bring about peace (their own twisted conception of it) by eradicating all Jews from the River to the Sea, so too we can bring about true peace to Israel by eradicating all Haredim.
No, it's not an aveira, (sin), it's actually a mitzvah (Torah commandment)! See Benjamin Brown's essay where he disproves the Chafetz Chaim. Also, even according to Haredim who believe in Lashon Harah (evil speech), eradicating them and their evil ideology would be considered 'l'to'elet' (constructive), in which case even they would agree that it's a mitzvah.
The Authors comments do not justify this immaturity , there are plenty of ways to articulate your viewpoint without going to this low. Be the better yid.
Everytime I see a "ביחד ננצח" poster here in Israel, I can't help but think that most of the Charedi population has no interest in being "ביחד" and probably not the "ננצח" part either, and it's a painful reality each time. My Charedi sister has no clue where or why my neighbor's soldier son died on Oct 7 because it didn't happen in Kiryat Sefer and therefore doesn't affect her. Gaza may as well be Mars, and she wants nothing to do with it. She's told me so. "We don't get involved in such things."
Please keep writing about this issue because it is so important for the truth to be told, and you are one of the only ones willing to do it. And you do it with a clear head, without sarcasm or hatred, laying out the facts so they can speak for themselves. Please know that your efforts are appreciated.
He didn't tell any truth here though, he just made some assertions and a head-scratching comparison to fighter planes in WW2? The truth is the chareidim are very much a part of this war, through their Torah and prayers, which are just as vital as guns and tanks. I'm sorry you seem to be intent on feeling otherwise.
And why has the number of Chareidim injured or killed in the war been so low? Because of Tora protects, or maybe because someone else is doing the fighting. [I don't want anyone to die..I open the news sites every morning with a sense of dread because I know so many soldiers in this war. It would jut be nice if more of the "protected people" helped out a little more where it matters]..
I don't understand your question. Maybe you are being sarcastic, but you are making it sound like it would be better if more people were killed. You probably didn't mean it that way. If you don't think that chareidim are doing anything valuable with their learning, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but it's an incorrect opinion. If you know a lot of soldiers, kol hakavod to you and to them. It is a great mesiras nefesh.
That's a very bad metric for how much "part of it" people are. By that that metric anybody not in combat or who doesn't have family members in combat are not part of it. The scientists who are developing defense systems and are not on the front lines are not part of it. So that is only a good metric if somebody is looking specifically to exclude chareidim, and even then it doesn't work unless you exclude tons of other people.
We've been through this already, but the point is communities, not individuals. Any individual might not be in combat for any number of reasons, and may still be contributing. But the only [Jewish] population that -as a group- barely participates in combat are the Chareidim.
In the US army and most armies worldwide the percentage of soliders that actually see combat is very small. In the US army for instance less than 16% see actual combat. In world War two 38.8 percent of all us soldiers were rear echelon non combat roles. Does it bother you that those millions of soliders never had to face any combat? Should we intentionally cycle in administrative and logistic soliders to front line heavy combat roles for the sake of fairness? Everyone has there roles. A large majority of Chareidim have taken on the spiritual role for the army as well as a large amount of logistical support. Just because they aren't litteraly in harms way does not make them any less important. Also just because your sister doesn't care does not mean all Chareidim or even a large amount of Chareidim are like that
In the army there are separate units each is totally specific in its role which are very much comparable to separate communities. However my point is simple. The point of being in an army has nothing to do with putting yourself at risk of death rather working towards a joint goal. In that the mainstream Chareidi public has joined in ways they believe to work towards a common goal.
In an army, you don't chose your role. No army allows a bunch of guys to come in together, without taking any sort of test, and say "our service will be to play saxophone, because we believe that will help a common goal".
Maybe my kids are much more suited for a "spiritual role" than many from the Chareidi community. Who are the Chareidim to self select?
Finally, I have yet to see anyone here present a clear, concise, source-based explanation of the Halachik basis for Chareidi non-enlistment.
Exactly. That in no ways means we don't appreciate the mesiras nefesh of the soldiers who see battle, or their families. To the contrary, we are very grateful.
I have always proposed that those who are protecting with their Torah and prayers should be on special so designated buses leading the troops and tanks:
I get the drift that you have some personal baggage with Charedim. You're in good company, Slifkin has it too. Maybe the two of you can start a support group for bitter online trolls with axes to grind against Charedim. I'm sure it will be a smashing success!
This clown [see link] seems to have a similar attitude to the one you describe in Kiryat Sefer.
A Rosh Yeshiva from Ashdod who says that soldiers are like garbage collectors- it's very nice that they help society but he doesn't feel like he owes them anything.
His apology was a one-liner in a Chareidi newspaper saying he was misunderstood. A real apology would be spending the next 40 days visiting soldiers on the front lines to understand that they really are his brothers.
Your typical approach. Discard criticism by by minimizing what is true and fact as known to these people.There is no value unless there is a blue ribbon report.which is not always possible.It is well known in Chareidi newspapers etc. and what we hear from Chareidi Rabbanim.
This argument makes no sense , there is literally more opinion in this blog than fact. By calling something opinion doesn't necessarily make it untrue.
How is this relevant to what I said I was not referring to that part of the comment? No I Don't think she's lying but I also know that you canr take that as an example for an entire community, I could also bring you 50 examples of chareidim and rabbonim that do care.
Thank you for your posts on this issue. These articles have helped many families including my own navigate the challenge of families with a range of Hashkafot eg. Hesder and Kollel. It has helped us articulate some of the issues that we have with those who do not send their children to the army and helped create a constructive and amicable dialogue. It’s unfortunate that so many readers have seen the posts over the past several weeks as creating disunity. I have found the opposite to be the case. Sharing honest perspectives leads to greater unity. Hiding or denying our resentment, anger or pain will not help the cause of unity. I would argue that it can make it worse. I once heard in the name of Rav Kook that this is the explanation for וקרב אתם אחד אל אחד לך לעץ אחד והיו לאחדים בידך - Achadim or ones - meaning that true unity is when two opposing camps have an open, honest and respectful discussion of their opinions and weltanschauung. Thank you Rabbi Dr. Slifkin for facilitating this very important discussion and helping many families during these emotional times.
I find Slifkin's tone is almost always accusatory and assumes bad intentions or deceit on the parts of his opponents. For example, he writes many times that chareidim don't really believe Torah protects, and this is just a selfish pretext to avoid army service. Is this what you do when you engage in the "constructive and amicable dialogue"? How do the other participants in the dialogue react to these accusations of selfishness? Do these accusations lead to further amicable dialogue?
This is a good example because most of them are sure they believe “b’emunah shleimah” that Torah protects but could then hear the stira if pointed out to them and, depending on their self-confidence vs. looking over their shoulder, could take it seriously and work to resolve the contradiction. It does not have to presented so negatively.
You’re picking the easy argument so you can win. The real argument against your recent posts about charedim is not the the content. It is entirely possible to make the same essential points, but as constructive criticism coming with sincerity about the value of achdus instead of as potshots listing everything bad about them so you can win your argument. A smart person who cares about his people recognizes the reality of where they are and does not get consumed by wishful thinking about where they really should be or resentment and negativity about how bad it is that they’re there. THIS is what separates you from the MO world, leaving you a controversial outsider rather than a respected voice. There are many great people in the MO world who don’t disagree with your observations but they know better than to make this an ordinary “spat” at any time but especially at a time when we should all be making an effort to build bridges. Make your important points but speak as a caring relative who seeks and values the positives. This will revolutionize your effect on people (unless your goal is to have a controversial blog that attracts attention…)
"The real argument against your recent posts about charedim is not the the content." Ah, it's not the content, it's the "tone." Where have I heard that before?
The only ones who really matter. Whoops! That was not nice! Sorry! See? You can have it both ways and potentially end up raising the quality of comments at the same time. You just have to - very nicely and with the utmost humility and respect - insult the annoying kvetchers and purveyors of sanctimony while offering low-conflict content with a positive and boring spirit that doesn’t push their buttons and they’ll drop out, allowing all those mature and thoughtful thinkers waiting in the wings to become more active. We’d be having high-level conversations in no time! And perhaps, since RDNS will be getting all nice, he’ll start a second blog dominated by negativity to continue throwing red meat to those who only come for conflict. I think we’re onto something…
I find your writings very interesting and the points made need to be said. Very few people within the Orthodox have ever tackled such controversy. Kol Hakavod! Keep writing, write on and right on.
I believe you missed a "Group" F -- those who actively attack soldiers. The very same soldiers who are providing a safe environment for those who despise the medina and its solders so they can raise their families and live their lives in safety.
"The charedim who aren’t doing anything don’t get publicity. Accordingly, it’s very difficult to form an accurate picture of the situation."
That's because the chareidim who "aren't doing anything" aren't making a lot of noise. But the non-chareidim who are REALLY not doing anything, except writing psychotics hate posts, are making a lot of noise!
Stuart, did I suggest he be kicked off this blog? I simply wanted to know why in the world he wastes so much time here if he can't stand the author. You are reading way to much into what I wrote. Please read what I wrote again.
Huh? What four articles are you talking about? Did I mention something about that? This blog is meant to exchange meat loaf recipes. You must have been commenting to someone else.
"Knowledge is important. It’s crucial to know what the situation actually is. It is relevant in so many ways - deciding who to vote for, which causes to support, which community to affiliate with, which rabbis to look to for guidance, which influences to expose our children to, who needs outreach, who is representative of a community and who is not. And you can’t fix deficiences in achdus if you’re not even aware of the nature of the problem."
There are various approaches in the Charedei world, aside for Satmar. Maybe some only accept the state begrudgingly. But for the most part, the issues are religious in nature, being opposed to the secularism. The Sephardim are pro the state with secular vs. religious being a completely separate issue. In any case, the issues that arise because of religious considerations is not easy to solve.
Rabbi Slifkin, I don't understand why you are so focused on one part of the population who sincerely cares about the rest of the country and exemplifies the trait of Ahavas Yisrael. Sure, they may not be sending many soldiers, but the people of Israel are in their hearts and prayers, and that counts as well. And there is a huge increase in the number of soldiers they are sending, which is a massive change, that is much more than the raw numbers. The comparison to WW2 planes makes no sense. If you meant to say only a small number of chareidim are joining, why do you need Abraham Wald? But really, the question is if these holy Jews care, and the answer is that they do, at least as much as you do. That they have different ideas how to best help has no bearing on that fact.
Now I am thinking you meant by the comparison that we shouldn't be overly swayed by the media reports about chareidim participating, because we don't know about all those that are not in the media reports. Just like we shouldn't be overly swayed by the damage profiles on the returning planes. But this sounds like a petulant and petty complaint, and an attempt to search for the bad in your fellow Jew. Like, you see lots of evidence of chareidim participating and joining in unprecedented achdus, and your response is, maybe there are lots of chareidim not participating.
"The other day, I saw someone comment that the overwhelming majority of charedim in Israel are invested in supporting the IDF, one way or another, and far outnumber those who negate consideration of the IDF. I asked him, “How do you know?” It might be true and it might be false. He didn’t actually have any evidence for that assertion."
You're talking as if chareidim are some weird tribal group that you are studying from the outside and you need evidence of their general attitudes. But there are plenty of people who live in the actual chareidi community who can attest to this. Let me ask the other way around, what evidence do you have that non-chareidim who are not currently actively serving, which is the majority, support the IDF? Maybe they don't? You might think that's a ridiculous question because from your perspective, your society obviously supports the IDF. The same is with chareidim, those who live in the community can attest that their community supports the IDF, although they have reasons for not serving themselves.
I worked for the Center for Naval Analyses for four years before going to graduate school....
"Abraham Wald, a religious Jewish statistician "
and not I, too, am a religious Jewish statistician.
"survivorship bias"
This remains a major concern for scientific research today. For example, in epidemiologic research, if you only enroll people who are a certain age or above, you lose all information on those who die before that age. Example: cigarette smoking may appear to prevent dementia in a study -- because the smokers all died before they were old enough to be enrolled in the study, much less get dementia.
Yes, survivorship bias is everywhere. The COVID breaking, chain smoking, overweight chap who points to everybody else overweight, who broke COVID rules and chain smokes, who survived COVID as proof that these factors 'don't make a difference'.
Anybody and everybody who is an Israeli civilian must contribute physically to the IDF, with virtually no exceptions. In WWII the Quakers served heroically in the medical core. The Charadeim need to be trained to serve in some measurable and effective way in the defense of the country. Davening and learning Torah is fine, but it does not meet the requirements.
"Criticizing people for harming achdus is not harming achdus" yes it is , atleast in this case , you are not convincing anyone you are only growing the divide.
The country is moved by the charedi response and the media is full of positive stories. This realy ticks off Slifkin and he goes off shooting out posts to incite, bismerch, divide while twisting and misrepresenting the reality. He can't stand that the charedim are integrating and uses every opportynity to be מסית ומדיח.
Watch these clips to see what is happening in reality and compare it to Slifkin's take.
https://youtu.be/i5yb3J2VN3c?si=baVKB2xspgzoltzY
https://youtu.be/1Zam8tKjzb0?si=NMdDkL_fu3ZyeJ-C
https://www.inn.co.il/news/620868
Thank your for perfectly illustrating my point. You accuse me of twisting and misrepresenting reality, while simultaneously you make it clear that you are only interested in stories of charedim contributing and you want to squelch any contrary evidence.
Because it's a slow evolutionary process and the problems are well known. My chiloni family and friends love what's happening and appreciate the progress. They welcome the charedi participation. One of them, a 70 year old former officer in the tank corpse who fought in כיתת הכוננות on 7/10, is excited about the progress and no one counts how many charedim had died in the war compared to the other sectors of the population. Everyone I know from the non-charedi demographic is positive and welcoming. Listen to what the army officers and שלב ב soldiers are saying about their feelings and motivation. This is how progress is made. You behaviour is irrational and you need counciling. Can't you write about your freaking animals and stop trying to stir the pot of machlokes and hatred? Do a post on a wombat or a peraniah.
Exactly, this is the correct attitude. Not the glass half empty attitude.
And it comes naturally to people who had never put on a tefilin. Incidentally, my son is in כיתת הכוננות and my grandson is in the army. Charedim come to visit my son's lonely farm and one family even stayed over for the night for the expirience.
To be busy with stirring up hatred at the times of war is the evil way of Haaretz, Israeli left and a Neturei Karta fringe.
OOHH, you just made my day! Looking forward to that really salaciously delicious Lashon Harah about those evil Charedim. Can't wait!!!
It could be both.
I'd say you look at the name they choose for themselves.
Evaluate his points and statements. Do they have validity? If so, I would call him a brave soul that is doing the Jewish world a favor. If you are a credentialed psychologist, then let's hear your proofs for mental illness. Seems rather simple to me. You up for the challenge?
So valid points = doing the Jewish world a favor.
How so?
Is there any way to measure the benefit to the world from these posts?
Yeah, I'm literally licking my chops and drooling! But of course, I'm not a bored, bitter, and obsessed Charedi hater, I'm just trying to promote hate of things that need to be hated in order to create REAL peace! Mi k'amkha Yisrael!
This is R' Slifkin's blog. He can write what he wants. If you're not bored or obsessed and you don't like what you see...don't come here.
Excuse me? I just said that I am so excited to read it!
Well being that this site follows the ethos of Maimonides and the Rationalist Rishonim, we must indeed take note of what their approach would have been vis-a-vis the Haredim. As Maimonides said, "Accept the truth from one who speaks it". We can take a lesson from Hamas, although they are evil and we need to defeat them. In the same way they are trying to bring about peace (their own twisted conception of it) by eradicating all Jews from the River to the Sea, so too we can bring about true peace to Israel by eradicating all Haredim.
You know, it's an aveira to listen to lashon hara. So if you really believe this is, you should, you know, not come to this site.
No, it's not an aveira, (sin), it's actually a mitzvah (Torah commandment)! See Benjamin Brown's essay where he disproves the Chafetz Chaim. Also, even according to Haredim who believe in Lashon Harah (evil speech), eradicating them and their evil ideology would be considered 'l'to'elet' (constructive), in which case even they would agree that it's a mitzvah.
I understand Hebrew, you know.
This is an excellent point.
The Authors comments do not justify this immaturity , there are plenty of ways to articulate your viewpoint without going to this low. Be the better yid.
Everytime I see a "ביחד ננצח" poster here in Israel, I can't help but think that most of the Charedi population has no interest in being "ביחד" and probably not the "ננצח" part either, and it's a painful reality each time. My Charedi sister has no clue where or why my neighbor's soldier son died on Oct 7 because it didn't happen in Kiryat Sefer and therefore doesn't affect her. Gaza may as well be Mars, and she wants nothing to do with it. She's told me so. "We don't get involved in such things."
Please keep writing about this issue because it is so important for the truth to be told, and you are one of the only ones willing to do it. And you do it with a clear head, without sarcasm or hatred, laying out the facts so they can speak for themselves. Please know that your efforts are appreciated.
He didn't tell any truth here though, he just made some assertions and a head-scratching comparison to fighter planes in WW2? The truth is the chareidim are very much a part of this war, through their Torah and prayers, which are just as vital as guns and tanks. I'm sorry you seem to be intent on feeling otherwise.
"Chareidim are very much part of this war"
And why has the number of Chareidim injured or killed in the war been so low? Because of Tora protects, or maybe because someone else is doing the fighting. [I don't want anyone to die..I open the news sites every morning with a sense of dread because I know so many soldiers in this war. It would jut be nice if more of the "protected people" helped out a little more where it matters]..
I don't understand your question. Maybe you are being sarcastic, but you are making it sound like it would be better if more people were killed. You probably didn't mean it that way. If you don't think that chareidim are doing anything valuable with their learning, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but it's an incorrect opinion. If you know a lot of soldiers, kol hakavod to you and to them. It is a great mesiras nefesh.
She was pointing that they are not at all "very much part of it" in comparison to everyone else.
That's a very bad metric for how much "part of it" people are. By that that metric anybody not in combat or who doesn't have family members in combat are not part of it. The scientists who are developing defense systems and are not on the front lines are not part of it. So that is only a good metric if somebody is looking specifically to exclude chareidim, and even then it doesn't work unless you exclude tons of other people.
We've been through this already, but the point is communities, not individuals. Any individual might not be in combat for any number of reasons, and may still be contributing. But the only [Jewish] population that -as a group- barely participates in combat are the Chareidim.
In the US army and most armies worldwide the percentage of soliders that actually see combat is very small. In the US army for instance less than 16% see actual combat. In world War two 38.8 percent of all us soldiers were rear echelon non combat roles. Does it bother you that those millions of soliders never had to face any combat? Should we intentionally cycle in administrative and logistic soliders to front line heavy combat roles for the sake of fairness? Everyone has there roles. A large majority of Chareidim have taken on the spiritual role for the army as well as a large amount of logistical support. Just because they aren't litteraly in harms way does not make them any less important. Also just because your sister doesn't care does not mean all Chareidim or even a large amount of Chareidim are like that
You don't get it. It's about *communities*. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/idf-exemptions-the-crucial-distinction
In the army there are separate units each is totally specific in its role which are very much comparable to separate communities. However my point is simple. The point of being in an army has nothing to do with putting yourself at risk of death rather working towards a joint goal. In that the mainstream Chareidi public has joined in ways they believe to work towards a common goal.
In an army, you don't chose your role. No army allows a bunch of guys to come in together, without taking any sort of test, and say "our service will be to play saxophone, because we believe that will help a common goal".
Maybe my kids are much more suited for a "spiritual role" than many from the Chareidi community. Who are the Chareidim to self select?
Finally, I have yet to see anyone here present a clear, concise, source-based explanation of the Halachik basis for Chareidi non-enlistment.
Exactly. That in no ways means we don't appreciate the mesiras nefesh of the soldiers who see battle, or their families. To the contrary, we are very grateful.
בדיוק
I have always proposed that those who are protecting with their Torah and prayers should be on special so designated buses leading the troops and tanks:
"ויהי בנסוע הארון....קומה... ויפוצו אויביך..."
I always had the same suggestion for the ammunition manufacturers.
They do, those in the reserves anyway.
I get the drift that you have some personal baggage with Charedim. You're in good company, Slifkin has it too. Maybe the two of you can start a support group for bitter online trolls with axes to grind against Charedim. I'm sure it will be a smashing success!
So it's Klal Yisroel's problem that you can't get along with your sister.
Interesting.
This clown [see link] seems to have a similar attitude to the one you describe in Kiryat Sefer.
A Rosh Yeshiva from Ashdod who says that soldiers are like garbage collectors- it's very nice that they help society but he doesn't feel like he owes them anything.
https://www.ynet.co.il/judaism/article/hycx90tvt
Did you see, read, or hear about the Charedi backlash to his words? Did you know that he issued a public apology?
Did you hear the entire speech?
1. Yes 2. Did you read this "apology"? 3. Yes.
His apology was a one-liner in a Chareidi newspaper saying he was misunderstood. A real apology would be spending the next 40 days visiting soldiers on the front lines to understand that they really are his brothers.
Why is it so important the "Truth be told" . " laying out the facts " there is more opinion than fact in these articles.
Your typical approach. Discard criticism by by minimizing what is true and fact as known to these people.There is no value unless there is a blue ribbon report.which is not always possible.It is well known in Chareidi newspapers etc. and what we hear from Chareidi Rabbanim.
This argument makes no sense , there is literally more opinion in this blog than fact. By calling something opinion doesn't necessarily make it untrue.
Did you read ChayaD's comment about Kiryat Sefer? Do you think she is lying?
An anonymous blogger can be anybody and say anything. Personally, my cousins in Kiryat Seifer are nothing like that.
How is this relevant to what I said I was not referring to that part of the comment? No I Don't think she's lying but I also know that you canr take that as an example for an entire community, I could also bring you 50 examples of chareidim and rabbonim that do care.
Exactly
You think that represents chareidim at large? That's a sick faction of klal yisroel
How are we supposed to know how large a faction it is, if nobody is allowed to say that it exists?
Most chareidim are really good fine people who care a ton whether your like it or not
Thank you for your posts on this issue. These articles have helped many families including my own navigate the challenge of families with a range of Hashkafot eg. Hesder and Kollel. It has helped us articulate some of the issues that we have with those who do not send their children to the army and helped create a constructive and amicable dialogue. It’s unfortunate that so many readers have seen the posts over the past several weeks as creating disunity. I have found the opposite to be the case. Sharing honest perspectives leads to greater unity. Hiding or denying our resentment, anger or pain will not help the cause of unity. I would argue that it can make it worse. I once heard in the name of Rav Kook that this is the explanation for וקרב אתם אחד אל אחד לך לעץ אחד והיו לאחדים בידך - Achadim or ones - meaning that true unity is when two opposing camps have an open, honest and respectful discussion of their opinions and weltanschauung. Thank you Rabbi Dr. Slifkin for facilitating this very important discussion and helping many families during these emotional times.
I find Slifkin's tone is almost always accusatory and assumes bad intentions or deceit on the parts of his opponents. For example, he writes many times that chareidim don't really believe Torah protects, and this is just a selfish pretext to avoid army service. Is this what you do when you engage in the "constructive and amicable dialogue"? How do the other participants in the dialogue react to these accusations of selfishness? Do these accusations lead to further amicable dialogue?
This is a good example because most of them are sure they believe “b’emunah shleimah” that Torah protects but could then hear the stira if pointed out to them and, depending on their self-confidence vs. looking over their shoulder, could take it seriously and work to resolve the contradiction. It does not have to presented so negatively.
You’re picking the easy argument so you can win. The real argument against your recent posts about charedim is not the the content. It is entirely possible to make the same essential points, but as constructive criticism coming with sincerity about the value of achdus instead of as potshots listing everything bad about them so you can win your argument. A smart person who cares about his people recognizes the reality of where they are and does not get consumed by wishful thinking about where they really should be or resentment and negativity about how bad it is that they’re there. THIS is what separates you from the MO world, leaving you a controversial outsider rather than a respected voice. There are many great people in the MO world who don’t disagree with your observations but they know better than to make this an ordinary “spat” at any time but especially at a time when we should all be making an effort to build bridges. Make your important points but speak as a caring relative who seeks and values the positives. This will revolutionize your effect on people (unless your goal is to have a controversial blog that attracts attention…)
"The real argument against your recent posts about charedim is not the the content." Ah, it's not the content, it's the "tone." Where have I heard that before?
So what's your response? If your tone is a constant issue, maybe there's really a serious problem?
I hope your last line is truly not standing in the way over here. How many people would read this blog of it were "nice?" 🤣
The only ones who really matter. Whoops! That was not nice! Sorry! See? You can have it both ways and potentially end up raising the quality of comments at the same time. You just have to - very nicely and with the utmost humility and respect - insult the annoying kvetchers and purveyors of sanctimony while offering low-conflict content with a positive and boring spirit that doesn’t push their buttons and they’ll drop out, allowing all those mature and thoughtful thinkers waiting in the wings to become more active. We’d be having high-level conversations in no time! And perhaps, since RDNS will be getting all nice, he’ll start a second blog dominated by negativity to continue throwing red meat to those who only come for conflict. I think we’re onto something…
I find your writings very interesting and the points made need to be said. Very few people within the Orthodox have ever tackled such controversy. Kol Hakavod! Keep writing, write on and right on.
agreed. just wish the tone would be more loving and caring and less divisive
I believe you missed a "Group" F -- those who actively attack soldiers. The very same soldiers who are providing a safe environment for those who despise the medina and its solders so they can raise their families and live their lives in safety.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-extremists-attack-ultra-orthodox-reserve-soldier-in-bnei-brak/
Correct, I forgot about them. There's quite a few in my city, too.
"quite a few" nebach. but they are sick individuals and not who we are
"The charedim who aren’t doing anything don’t get publicity. Accordingly, it’s very difficult to form an accurate picture of the situation."
That's because the chareidim who "aren't doing anything" aren't making a lot of noise. But the non-chareidim who are REALLY not doing anything, except writing psychotics hate posts, are making a lot of noise!
Why are you even on the blog? You seem to hate it so much I cannot understand why you are wasting so much time making comments on it. Get a life.
He's entitled to his opinion that's the point of an open discussion. Censor because he doesn't agree with you? Sounds rather familiar.
Stuart, did I suggest he be kicked off this blog? I simply wanted to know why in the world he wastes so much time here if he can't stand the author. You are reading way to much into what I wrote. Please read what I wrote again.
Seriously? You sound like a 3 year old child, mimicking what I say. I happen to enjoy the blog which is why I'm here.
You enjoy reading four articles a week obsessively attacking an entire segment of Jews?
Ok, it's a free country Joe
Huh? What in the world are you talking about? What 4 articles? What segment?
Huh? What four articles are you talking about? Did I mention something about that? This blog is meant to exchange meat loaf recipes. You must have been commenting to someone else.
All the best!
Please don't include the naturei karta under the rubric of chareidi. That's too low.
Antisemites in Purim outfits!
Fair point. The Neturei Karta have been put in cherem by some charedi groups.
Recent example of what some charedim think of NK:
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-773037
"Knowledge is important. It’s crucial to know what the situation actually is. It is relevant in so many ways - deciding who to vote for, which causes to support, which community to affiliate with, which rabbis to look to for guidance, which influences to expose our children to, who needs outreach, who is representative of a community and who is not. And you can’t fix deficiences in achdus if you’re not even aware of the nature of the problem."
I agree with this. I hope that you will provide actual statistics from a reputable source, rather than hot-takes from anonymous letter writers or some viral video of someone shooting their mouth off. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/an-unnatural-fixation-with-charedim/comment/36902679
There are various approaches in the Charedei world, aside for Satmar. Maybe some only accept the state begrudgingly. But for the most part, the issues are religious in nature, being opposed to the secularism. The Sephardim are pro the state with secular vs. religious being a completely separate issue. In any case, the issues that arise because of religious considerations is not easy to solve.
Rabbi Slifkin, I don't understand why you are so focused on one part of the population who sincerely cares about the rest of the country and exemplifies the trait of Ahavas Yisrael. Sure, they may not be sending many soldiers, but the people of Israel are in their hearts and prayers, and that counts as well. And there is a huge increase in the number of soldiers they are sending, which is a massive change, that is much more than the raw numbers. The comparison to WW2 planes makes no sense. If you meant to say only a small number of chareidim are joining, why do you need Abraham Wald? But really, the question is if these holy Jews care, and the answer is that they do, at least as much as you do. That they have different ideas how to best help has no bearing on that fact.
Now I am thinking you meant by the comparison that we shouldn't be overly swayed by the media reports about chareidim participating, because we don't know about all those that are not in the media reports. Just like we shouldn't be overly swayed by the damage profiles on the returning planes. But this sounds like a petulant and petty complaint, and an attempt to search for the bad in your fellow Jew. Like, you see lots of evidence of chareidim participating and joining in unprecedented achdus, and your response is, maybe there are lots of chareidim not participating.
It's not "petulant or petty" to point out that we are seeing could be 80% or 20%.
"The other day, I saw someone comment that the overwhelming majority of charedim in Israel are invested in supporting the IDF, one way or another, and far outnumber those who negate consideration of the IDF. I asked him, “How do you know?” It might be true and it might be false. He didn’t actually have any evidence for that assertion."
You're talking as if chareidim are some weird tribal group that you are studying from the outside and you need evidence of their general attitudes. But there are plenty of people who live in the actual chareidi community who can attest to this. Let me ask the other way around, what evidence do you have that non-chareidim who are not currently actively serving, which is the majority, support the IDF? Maybe they don't? You might think that's a ridiculous question because from your perspective, your society obviously supports the IDF. The same is with chareidim, those who live in the community can attest that their community supports the IDF, although they have reasons for not serving themselves.
"researchers from the Center for Naval Analyses"
I worked for the Center for Naval Analyses for four years before going to graduate school....
"Abraham Wald, a religious Jewish statistician "
and not I, too, am a religious Jewish statistician.
"survivorship bias"
This remains a major concern for scientific research today. For example, in epidemiologic research, if you only enroll people who are a certain age or above, you lose all information on those who die before that age. Example: cigarette smoking may appear to prevent dementia in a study -- because the smokers all died before they were old enough to be enrolled in the study, much less get dementia.
Yes, survivorship bias is everywhere. The COVID breaking, chain smoking, overweight chap who points to everybody else overweight, who broke COVID rules and chain smokes, who survived COVID as proof that these factors 'don't make a difference'.
Anybody and everybody who is an Israeli civilian must contribute physically to the IDF, with virtually no exceptions. In WWII the Quakers served heroically in the medical core. The Charadeim need to be trained to serve in some measurable and effective way in the defense of the country. Davening and learning Torah is fine, but it does not meet the requirements.
It's the video taken in the mir, correct?
No
"Criticizing people for harming achdus is not harming achdus" yes it is , atleast in this case , you are not convincing anyone you are only growing the divide.