Amazing stuff. The Rishonim like Ramban have no problem ascribing things to miracles (let alone the other Rishonim who were mysteriously left unmentioned here who have no problem with unstressed miracles throughout Tanach; eg. Yocheved giving birth at 130 was, as some rishonim say, 'not such a big deal that it had to be mentioned', et al.).
However: if they'd be alive today they'd agree with Natan. Why? Cuz he says so. And he's an authority on these matters, you see.
Maybe if the Ran would be alive today and see that his theory doesn't fit scientifically he'd agree with Ramban? Nah. Natan doesn't say so.
Or maybe almost nothing actually observable has changed since the time of the Rishonim as far as the viability of the story? They couldn't think of the question of ventilation? Or of how they survived in the conditions? Ah, the primitive Ramban didn't chap that animals tend to have different habitats. After all, he thought elephants can jump so maybe he assumed they, like, took turns with the other animals keeping their feet on the floor. Thank god (or whomever) for zoologists.
So now you've moved on to sulking about those crazy rigid fundamentalists who are not tolerant enough to allow others who are not as fundamental as them a place in Judaism. We should rename you Natan the Chameleon.
Well, if all you'd do is open a Gateways or Arachim seminar, that would be one thing. But you feel the need to go and consistently attack the Charedim for following the traditional approach by understanding that Genesis is from the deepest secrets of the Torah and far beyond our comprehension, as it is described by Chazal.
And let's not forget your proposed solutions that completely disregard the framework of Torah. As HGL so aptly pointed out, the Torah is not some malleable lump of silly putty that you can just mold to fit your own agenda. If you have a solution that works within traditional parameters and doesn't involve saying that the Torah is fabricated or other flat-out heresy, that would be fine. Unless, of course, you're willing to throw out the whole thing and declare parts of the Torah a complete fabrication. You know, like those early Reformers who ended up turning Judaism into a watered-down mess. Great idea, champ.
What does the Rambam have to do with this? Do you mean the Rambam that rules that someone who says that even one word of the Torah is of human origin is a heretic and deserves to be killed? I thought so.
Anyhow, I like your reasoning. A "long line of people" (I call those people Rishonim) felt that some of the Rambam's views may be heresy, so now you're allowed to say things which by all accounts are heresy. And I'm just a fanatic like those "people". Nice.
"But you feel the need to go and consistently attack the Charedim for following the traditional approach..." You've got it backwards. I don't care if people reject science. I just care that they condemn others for not rejecting science.
"And let's not forget your proposed solutions that completely disregard the framework of Torah." Please re-read the opening paragraph. It’s easy for you to just disqualify approaches that you consider theologically problematic, without having to actually deal with the challenges that people are grappling with. I would hope that you would recognize this and keep your opinions to yourself, unless you are comfortable with making people feel that they cannot be part of the religious Jewish community.
No, you've got it backwards. You can say whatever in the world you want to make the Torah fit with science, and I have absolutely no issue with that. But if it crosses the line of what Chazal define as heresy, you're not doing anyone a service.
And not sure why all of the sudden I'm supposed to be keeping my opinions to myself. You seem to have no problem spewing all your opinions about people that you have absolutely nothing to do with.
Cute how in the last post we were 'fundamentalists'; now it's 'Kentucky Christians' and 'moder charedim', just in time to assume the adult-in-the-room posture and tsk tsk at those who don't respect people with whom they disagree or whatever. Chameleon indeed.
“This is a magnificent life-size reproduction of Noah’s Ark and is the largest timber frame structure in the USA. Interpreting a cubit as 20 inches rather than 18, it’s over five hundred feet long!”
It’s amusing to learn some people are under the impression (I assume you’re quoting Ark Adventure propaganda) this is the largest timber frame structure in the US. I can assure you that is incorrect. Your Ark would look pretty puny if situated next to the real largest structure in the US (and possibly the world) which is TRESTLE -also about 12 stories tall. (We used to use it to simulate the effects of nuclear EMP on large strategic bombers in flight, and needed a platform without any metal that might deform the impinging free field electromagnetic wave. Lack of metal extended to joints and connectors and the whole contraption was held together with glue.) TRESTLE was decommissioned after the fall of the Soviet Union (when, sadly, other really cool activities in US western deserts were abruptly canceled), and I haven’t been back to Kirtland AFB is some years, but I believe it’s still standing. Because what after all, were you going to do with the thing.
"This post was written for those who are committed to the tenets of Judaism"
Which tenets of Judaism? Charity? Ohhh, you mean *Orthodox* Judaism. Most Judaism isn't Orthodox, so you should be more specific. The majority of Judaism is not challenged by the fact that the Torah contains a flood myth (well, two, kinda).
"unless they are comfortable with making people feel that they cannot be part of the religious Jewish community"
Plenty of religious Jews welcome those who understand the Torah that way: they're called non-fundamentalists. You meant the *Orthodox* Jewish community.
I think the reticence of the modern Chareidi approach in dealing with the technicalities of the mabul/ark is
1. The focus is mostly on the lesson of the flood. Thus while they may think that the whole earth was flooded and they take all the midrashim literally, it ultimately doesn't make much difference whether the flood encompassed the entire earth or just the Middle East - the lesson is the same.
2. Deep down, Chareidim know it is ridiculous to rewrite history like the Fundamentalist Christians do, and therefore would not explicitly do so.
@2. Overall, Chareidim are hardly aware that the flood is scientifically challenging, and assume that the answers they have for explaining creation, with a few adjustments, resolve any issues from the flood.
I don't see a problem with RNS explanation or the Ark Encounter as both work for some people. Charedi approach is more evolitionary sound for the survival of the group as it keeps more people within the fold and avoids greater confusion by exposing people to theories which more often then not lead to the denial of כל התורה כולה. If Torah is of primary importance to you and you want to see בנים ובני בנים עוסקים בתורה ובמיצוות charedi way is the way to go. There is no better alternative with all the shortcomings notwithstanding, or at least this is what I think.
Charedim are practicing the עשו סייג לתורה, which is what enabled our survival for 2,500 years since this principal had been established. From the evolutionary perspective they have done better then any other approach and I don't understand why this blog, written by an evolutionist, keeps beating a dead horse.
What I say is that an evolutionist of all people should understand that charedi ideology is an evolutionary adaptation that benefits the survival of the group. Study of science, serving in the army and finding theory of creation ridiculous doesn't.
This is all very simple.
What good is evolution if its understanding doesn't lead to the improvement of the survival prospects?
A strange question indeed. I prefer to be proven wrong rather then being right, for it improves my understanding and I gain knowledge. Evolution is true and evolutionary adaptarions are manifest in all religions and societies, but some are more succesful then others. At this point in history the charedim have an upper hand in having a more optimal system for preserving Judaism. We don't know if it will always be so, but it may. This is what I was talking about. Understanding the process helps to save lives and make better choices in life.
When work doesn't endanger their lifestyle, they work harder then most and are succesful. Not being able to function in the modern society is an advantage to their survival. The savages, who would kill all the strangers like the Andaman islanders, are still around. The ones that were more tolerant were whiped out. This is evolution and survival of the fittest. Can it be that hundreds of thousands of people are just cowards? Their behaviour is well thoight out.
You've told us what you believe is the "approach" that "Charedim" - all hundreds of thousands of them, apparently - have on the Ark. What do you think is the "approach" of the MO? Or of the Yeshiva world generally (unless you view this world as "charedim", which would be news to those in America.) What are their "approaches"? Is it any different than Charedim? Are you again letting your biases cloud your thinking? Maybe pretty much all orthodox Jews in their millions, of whatever stripe, have the same approach, and it is only you, Professor Slifkin, and a few others, that think otherwise?
Not aware of an answer to the Mabul question that is both intellectually honest and consistent with Torah. Local flood approach or Myth/Allegory/Metaphor approaches are full of holes and will sink. I consider the Mabul a major challenge to Orthodox Judaism. ACJA
You mean more accurately, that you don't want the Torah getting in the way of your lifestyle...... These are answers that you have not questions! These are answers to why you live the way you live......
“This is a magnificent life-size reproduction of Noah’s Ark and is the largest timber frame structure in the USA. Interpreting a cubit as 20 inches rather than 18, it’s over five hundred feet long!”
It’s amusing to learn some people are under the impression (I assume you’re quoting Ark Adventure propaganda) this is the largest timber frame structure in the US. I can assure you that is incorrect. Your Ark would look pretty puny if situated next to the real largest structure in the US (and possibly the world) which is TRESTLE -also about 12 stories tall. (We used to use it to simulate the effects of nuclear EMP on large strategic bombers in flight, and needed a platform without any metal that might deform the impinging free field electromagnetic wave. Lack of metal extended to joints and connectors and the whole contraption was held together with glue.) TRESTLE was decommissioned after the fall of the Soviet Union (when, sadly, other really cool activities in US western deserts were abruptly canceled), and I haven’t been back to Kirtland AFB is some years, but I believe it’s still standing. Because what after all, were you going to do with the thing.
I've never really thought about the logistics before. I simply assumed it happened and that was that. But I do love the explanation of lesser animals in the world and the flood being localized. Having watched the recent floods here in NZ, it does feel like the end of the world and that the whole world is experiencing the same level of terror as you. In reality, only half of NZ (the North Island) was affected. Thanks for sharing this. Fascinating read.
Charedim - which in any event are only monolithic to outsiders like you - do not have an "approach" to the Ark. You made your life about animals and that's fine. So to you, Parshas Noach is a big deal. But no one else thinks about it other than the one week it comes up in the cycle and the kindergartners come home with projects. It's not that they "Dont Want to Discuss It", as you spin it, it's that it's not important. There's no mitzvos or Gemaras based on it, (other than incidental passages unconnected with the ark.) Whether its an allegory or not is irrelevant. If asked, many Charedim would say its not, but many others would say it is, but all of them would say at the end of the day it makes no difference whatsoever. Modoxers, who likewise don't really think that much about it, would probably be the same, possibly in reverse. It's just not that important.
Amazing stuff. The Rishonim like Ramban have no problem ascribing things to miracles (let alone the other Rishonim who were mysteriously left unmentioned here who have no problem with unstressed miracles throughout Tanach; eg. Yocheved giving birth at 130 was, as some rishonim say, 'not such a big deal that it had to be mentioned', et al.).
However: if they'd be alive today they'd agree with Natan. Why? Cuz he says so. And he's an authority on these matters, you see.
Maybe if the Ran would be alive today and see that his theory doesn't fit scientifically he'd agree with Ramban? Nah. Natan doesn't say so.
Or maybe almost nothing actually observable has changed since the time of the Rishonim as far as the viability of the story? They couldn't think of the question of ventilation? Or of how they survived in the conditions? Ah, the primitive Ramban didn't chap that animals tend to have different habitats. After all, he thought elephants can jump so maybe he assumed they, like, took turns with the other animals keeping their feet on the floor. Thank god (or whomever) for zoologists.
Well, well, well, look who's feeling oh-so-noble with their fancy introduction. After snarkily attacking Charedim for not having their own Genesis and Great Flood museums, your arguments were completely demolished by HGL https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/part-3-the-intellectually-challenged and Rational Traditionalist https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/natan-and-the-cavemen,
So now you've moved on to sulking about those crazy rigid fundamentalists who are not tolerant enough to allow others who are not as fundamental as them a place in Judaism. We should rename you Natan the Chameleon.
Well, if all you'd do is open a Gateways or Arachim seminar, that would be one thing. But you feel the need to go and consistently attack the Charedim for following the traditional approach by understanding that Genesis is from the deepest secrets of the Torah and far beyond our comprehension, as it is described by Chazal.
And let's not forget your proposed solutions that completely disregard the framework of Torah. As HGL so aptly pointed out, the Torah is not some malleable lump of silly putty that you can just mold to fit your own agenda. If you have a solution that works within traditional parameters and doesn't involve saying that the Torah is fabricated or other flat-out heresy, that would be fine. Unless, of course, you're willing to throw out the whole thing and declare parts of the Torah a complete fabrication. You know, like those early Reformers who ended up turning Judaism into a watered-down mess. Great idea, champ.
I wonder if you realize that you are no different from the long line of people who called Rambam's views heresy.
What does the Rambam have to do with this? Do you mean the Rambam that rules that someone who says that even one word of the Torah is of human origin is a heretic and deserves to be killed? I thought so.
Anyhow, I like your reasoning. A "long line of people" (I call those people Rishonim) felt that some of the Rambam's views may be heresy, so now you're allowed to say things which by all accounts are heresy. And I'm just a fanatic like those "people". Nice.
"But you feel the need to go and consistently attack the Charedim for following the traditional approach..." You've got it backwards. I don't care if people reject science. I just care that they condemn others for not rejecting science.
"And let's not forget your proposed solutions that completely disregard the framework of Torah." Please re-read the opening paragraph. It’s easy for you to just disqualify approaches that you consider theologically problematic, without having to actually deal with the challenges that people are grappling with. I would hope that you would recognize this and keep your opinions to yourself, unless you are comfortable with making people feel that they cannot be part of the religious Jewish community.
No, you've got it backwards. You can say whatever in the world you want to make the Torah fit with science, and I have absolutely no issue with that. But if it crosses the line of what Chazal define as heresy, you're not doing anyone a service.
And not sure why all of the sudden I'm supposed to be keeping my opinions to myself. You seem to have no problem spewing all your opinions about people that you have absolutely nothing to do with.
Cute how in the last post we were 'fundamentalists'; now it's 'Kentucky Christians' and 'moder charedim', just in time to assume the adult-in-the-room posture and tsk tsk at those who don't respect people with whom they disagree or whatever. Chameleon indeed.
Lol, you aren't 1/100 the person Rabbi Sacks was.
“This is a magnificent life-size reproduction of Noah’s Ark and is the largest timber frame structure in the USA. Interpreting a cubit as 20 inches rather than 18, it’s over five hundred feet long!”
It’s amusing to learn some people are under the impression (I assume you’re quoting Ark Adventure propaganda) this is the largest timber frame structure in the US. I can assure you that is incorrect. Your Ark would look pretty puny if situated next to the real largest structure in the US (and possibly the world) which is TRESTLE -also about 12 stories tall. (We used to use it to simulate the effects of nuclear EMP on large strategic bombers in flight, and needed a platform without any metal that might deform the impinging free field electromagnetic wave. Lack of metal extended to joints and connectors and the whole contraption was held together with glue.) TRESTLE was decommissioned after the fall of the Soviet Union (when, sadly, other really cool activities in US western deserts were abruptly canceled), and I haven’t been back to Kirtland AFB is some years, but I believe it’s still standing. Because what after all, were you going to do with the thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATLAS-I
"This post was written for those who are committed to the tenets of Judaism"
Which tenets of Judaism? Charity? Ohhh, you mean *Orthodox* Judaism. Most Judaism isn't Orthodox, so you should be more specific. The majority of Judaism is not challenged by the fact that the Torah contains a flood myth (well, two, kinda).
"unless they are comfortable with making people feel that they cannot be part of the religious Jewish community"
Plenty of religious Jews welcome those who understand the Torah that way: they're called non-fundamentalists. You meant the *Orthodox* Jewish community.
The point that you make in the last paragraph is excellent! (Not to detract from the article itself).
Why does Ark encounter depice the ark streamlined like a ship? It was a box. It didn't have to go anywhere. It just had to float.
Because there's almost no information in the text and people who read it make assumptions that fit their worldview.
You'll also notice that there's artificial lighting inside, rather than comporting with the way the text explains how there was light.
A boat with a flat bottom would be pretty rough on any waves.
Yes, but the ark didn't need a prow.
Possibly. I don't know enough about it. But maybe Noach would have had the same thought?
I think the reticence of the modern Chareidi approach in dealing with the technicalities of the mabul/ark is
1. The focus is mostly on the lesson of the flood. Thus while they may think that the whole earth was flooded and they take all the midrashim literally, it ultimately doesn't make much difference whether the flood encompassed the entire earth or just the Middle East - the lesson is the same.
2. Deep down, Chareidim know it is ridiculous to rewrite history like the Fundamentalist Christians do, and therefore would not explicitly do so.
My two cents.
@2. Overall, Chareidim are hardly aware that the flood is scientifically challenging, and assume that the answers they have for explaining creation, with a few adjustments, resolve any issues from the flood.
I don't see a problem with RNS explanation or the Ark Encounter as both work for some people. Charedi approach is more evolitionary sound for the survival of the group as it keeps more people within the fold and avoids greater confusion by exposing people to theories which more often then not lead to the denial of כל התורה כולה. If Torah is of primary importance to you and you want to see בנים ובני בנים עוסקים בתורה ובמיצוות charedi way is the way to go. There is no better alternative with all the shortcomings notwithstanding, or at least this is what I think.
Charedim are practicing the עשו סייג לתורה, which is what enabled our survival for 2,500 years since this principal had been established. From the evolutionary perspective they have done better then any other approach and I don't understand why this blog, written by an evolutionist, keeps beating a dead horse.
What I say is that an evolutionist of all people should understand that charedi ideology is an evolutionary adaptation that benefits the survival of the group. Study of science, serving in the army and finding theory of creation ridiculous doesn't.
This is all very simple.
What good is evolution if its understanding doesn't lead to the improvement of the survival prospects?
A strange question indeed. I prefer to be proven wrong rather then being right, for it improves my understanding and I gain knowledge. Evolution is true and evolutionary adaptarions are manifest in all religions and societies, but some are more succesful then others. At this point in history the charedim have an upper hand in having a more optimal system for preserving Judaism. We don't know if it will always be so, but it may. This is what I was talking about. Understanding the process helps to save lives and make better choices in life.
When work doesn't endanger their lifestyle, they work harder then most and are succesful. Not being able to function in the modern society is an advantage to their survival. The savages, who would kill all the strangers like the Andaman islanders, are still around. The ones that were more tolerant were whiped out. This is evolution and survival of the fittest. Can it be that hundreds of thousands of people are just cowards? Their behaviour is well thoight out.
You've told us what you believe is the "approach" that "Charedim" - all hundreds of thousands of them, apparently - have on the Ark. What do you think is the "approach" of the MO? Or of the Yeshiva world generally (unless you view this world as "charedim", which would be news to those in America.) What are their "approaches"? Is it any different than Charedim? Are you again letting your biases cloud your thinking? Maybe pretty much all orthodox Jews in their millions, of whatever stripe, have the same approach, and it is only you, Professor Slifkin, and a few others, that think otherwise?
LOLOLOL!!!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-trip-to-the-local-church
Coming from someone who trusts "modern scientists" with a proven agenda of falsifying facts....... more than Chazal.....
Not aware of an answer to the Mabul question that is both intellectually honest and consistent with Torah. Local flood approach or Myth/Allegory/Metaphor approaches are full of holes and will sink. I consider the Mabul a major challenge to Orthodox Judaism. ACJA
You mean more accurately, that you don't want the Torah getting in the way of your lifestyle...... These are answers that you have not questions! These are answers to why you live the way you live......
How do you know that my lifestyle inconsistent with traditional Jewish values ? Anyway, what is your solution to the Mabul question ?
This is the answer to your question:
https://youtu.be/5Bajte-9GnY
It is a long video and skipped around a little and may have missed it, but can you direct me to where the Rabbi answers the Mabul questions ? Thanks
“This is a magnificent life-size reproduction of Noah’s Ark and is the largest timber frame structure in the USA. Interpreting a cubit as 20 inches rather than 18, it’s over five hundred feet long!”
It’s amusing to learn some people are under the impression (I assume you’re quoting Ark Adventure propaganda) this is the largest timber frame structure in the US. I can assure you that is incorrect. Your Ark would look pretty puny if situated next to the real largest structure in the US (and possibly the world) which is TRESTLE -also about 12 stories tall. (We used to use it to simulate the effects of nuclear EMP on large strategic bombers in flight, and needed a platform without any metal that might deform the impinging free field electromagnetic wave. Lack of metal extended to joints and connectors and the whole contraption was held together with glue.) TRESTLE was decommissioned after the fall of the Soviet Union (when, sadly, other really cool activities in US western deserts were abruptly canceled), and I haven’t been back to Kirtland AFB is some years, but I believe it’s still standing. Because what after all, were you going to do with the thing.
Mechy Frankel
I've never really thought about the logistics before. I simply assumed it happened and that was that. But I do love the explanation of lesser animals in the world and the flood being localized. Having watched the recent floods here in NZ, it does feel like the end of the world and that the whole world is experiencing the same level of terror as you. In reality, only half of NZ (the North Island) was affected. Thanks for sharing this. Fascinating read.
Haha! That’s funny!
Charedim - which in any event are only monolithic to outsiders like you - do not have an "approach" to the Ark. You made your life about animals and that's fine. So to you, Parshas Noach is a big deal. But no one else thinks about it other than the one week it comes up in the cycle and the kindergartners come home with projects. It's not that they "Dont Want to Discuss It", as you spin it, it's that it's not important. There's no mitzvos or Gemaras based on it, (other than incidental passages unconnected with the ark.) Whether its an allegory or not is irrelevant. If asked, many Charedim would say its not, but many others would say it is, but all of them would say at the end of the day it makes no difference whatsoever. Modoxers, who likewise don't really think that much about it, would probably be the same, possibly in reverse. It's just not that important.
Garvin: Parts of Torah not that important.
Sounds like R Slifkins approach is better than yours then. While he may think it's false, at least he thinks it's important!