It's complicated. I had the merit to get a car ride together with a Rov who is part of the Agudah leadership a few years ago (not from the actual Mo'etzes, but the Agudah has a roster of renowned community Rabbonim who are involved in an influential way). This was shortly after the Novominsker Rebbe was nifter and he explained to me that the Agudah was finding itself increasingly less relevant. Whereas up until the 90s and early 2000s there were many shuls and Yidden who affiliated with the Agudah, due to the mass migration to Lakewood, that was quickly dying down. The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva made it clear to the Agudah many years ago that they do not want Agudah shuls opening up in Lakewood, they felt it would detract from the flavor of the community they were trying to build. (Obviously by now Lakewood is so big that it's a hefkervelt and everyone can do whatever the heck they want, but they probably still do not want to tamper with the status quo).
This was creating a huge issue, where the largest and fastest growing community in the US felt no affinity to the Agudah, whereas places that had previously been bastions of Agudah supporters were slowly thinning out. Therefore, in a bid to pander to a wider base, the Agudah took the bold step of adding a whole bunch of leading Lakewood Rabbonim. If the desired effect was that the Lakewood community should become 'Agudists' en masse, then this gambit did not accomplish its goal. But I believe that it did lead people from the Lakewood community to take statements and positions from the Mo'etzes Gedolei Hatorah more seriously. So in place of an organization that sees itself as THE voice for Chareidi Jewry in the US being completely alienated and estranged from the largest frum community in the US, they did manage to regain some relevance for themselves.
However, as the Agudah is finding out, it's going to be extremely hard to try to appeal to the old-time New York baalebatishe Agudist and the new generation of Lakewood Yeshiva community at the same time.
Nosson, did you write this letter? How many times have you predicted the end of the chareidi world in the past 15 years? 50? 100? It will never happen! Am Yisrael Chai! People like you who are trying to promote secularism and kefira will descend to Hell, and we will remain.
They're part of a group with a pack mentality who feels the need to constantly mutually reinforce their views. It makes them feel good I guess. I've pointed out that phenomenon before here.
yeah there's a lot of comments from different haredi types here, most of them in fact. yet most do not have 2 many likes. why did Natan Jesus get so many?
This letter actually deals with a serious issue and identifies it properly as opposed to other complaints that are commonly seen here. I always say this blog would be worth more if this was the focus.
It's not really an aguda problem. It's a 'community' problem. Most issues deserve different responses for different communities. For someone in Lakewood who is living a very lofty torah life, things that need internet should be treif, hence 24/6. But that is for a very, very specific demographic. For most people it's okay and even a good thing. The rabonim of those people would allow. But Lakewood or the aguda r putting out massive statements about small things that depend wholly on the constituents. Of course internet is not a good thing but most people absolutely need it and we can't put out statements now about 24/6 being an issue for that broader community.
This is not actually an issue because the Lakewood rabonim are talking to their followers, kol hakavod. But in this age, it travels as if it's for all of klal yisroel (and the kanaim make them sound like they really are) and it just ends up looking off.
The following anonymous letter has also been circulating:
Dear Agudah Yid,
I write to you as someone who considers himself an “Pro-Israel” even if I missed the rally due to pressing mental health issues! You should be aware that there is not a neat division between "Lakewood" and "Smiling Chilled Baltimore Agudah People Who Wear Black Hats". Rather, there is spectrum. And on the spectrum, people respect each other. Rav Olshin respects Rav Heineman. Rav Shlomo Miller respects Rav Reisman. Nobody respects Shlomo Riskin. So take a chill pill.
It seems this letter writer is a bit naive, thinking that the Moetzes always agreed to each other. This is not the first time that members of the moetzes disagreed with each other, so they didn't release any official statement.
Agudah did the right thing. They did not endorse, nor condemn, the rally, and let everyone follow the Rabbanin they'd like
Its not a crises. Is the kav/gush divide a crisis in Israel? Ppl will go their seperate hashkafic ways and thats it. Its only a crisis for those who see some ideal in an umbrella chareidi position.
yeah the thing is that Israel has been sectarian for a long time already, in the us the non-hasidic haredim try to keep united. maybe things aren't tenable that way anymore. i dont know and not saying for certain im just trying to read the tea leaves
i believe your knowledge of haredim is more those in israel. in the us its a whole different political scene and culture. not sure if its in any way comparable.
This "letter" is a very poorly disguised attempt to promote modern orthodoxy and the OU, under the guise of pretending to come from an Agudah guy. One has to have the brains of a mollusk not to see through this.
I wasnt commenting on that, I was saying the letter is painfully obviously not from an Agudah type, regardless of where he grew up. Agduah guys dont use the word "yeeden" in print; that's something only a Modo guy trying to sound what he THINKS an agudah guy sounds like.
Natan, why was this important letter anonymous? Is intimidation in the Adidas community so overpowering that any constructive criticism must be anonymous? This bodes badly.
In the religious community earnest free expression of ideas is pretty far down the totem pole of community values. Hence the abundance of pseudonyms here. Those of us using our real names are not in the haredi shidduch game .
A decent letter overall, but I do take issue with the line that nobody questions the greatness of the "Gedolim" on Fakewood. There are absolutely a number of people who, particularly following their issuance of their abhorrent Kol Koreh, absolutely do - and it's a long time coming for the Erev Rabbanim in question.
Looks like my comment didn't show so I. will try again
Nosson, did you write this? How many times have you predicted the end of the chareidi world in the past 18 years? 50? 100? It will never happen! Am Yisrael Chai! Kofrim like you who are trying to promote secularism and kefira will descend to Hell, and we will remain!
It seems this letter writer is a bit naive, thinking that the Moetzes always agreed to each other. This is not the first time that members of the moetzes disagreed with each other, so they didn't release any official statement.
Agudah did the right thing. They did not endorse, nor condemn, the rally, and let everyone follow the Rabbanin they'd like
The letter is dumb, but the Agudah failed, big time, and I will tell you why, very simply: the RYs are running it instead of the ballei battim.
Bekitzur Nimratz, the Agudah's always claimed to be guided by its Moetzes, but R' Moshe Sherer was never shy about "influencing" the Moetzes, and because they didn't speak English and he did, they always listened to him. That's not the case any more. The rosh yeshivahs are controlling the show, and because of the inherent nature of things (left lurches left, right lurches right) the kannoim are running things and the more reasonable voices are afraid to speak up. No different than wokeness in corporate board rooms.
You have no reason to believe me, I realize, but I'm just telling you, this IS the problem. (And for the record - just bc I'm honest enough to acknowledge problems within the Agudah doesn't mean NS is right. He hasn't said one correct thing since the war started other than on this failure of the Agudah to properly support the rally. Anything he's said about "charedim" or the draft are shtus vi'hevel.)
Manipulated is a strong word, I don't say that. He "guided" them. To some that may sounds like semantics, but its not. It's no different than any CEO or School Administrator making a recommendation to the Board.
I don't agree with Gavrin at all in this case, but mentioning Moshe Sherer actually has a lot to do with this conversation, since he played a big role in balancing the Moetzes, and now we know why. The Aguda was much more of a unified Umbrella Organization for decades to his credit. He was extremely strong that the Aguda in US should not join with Israel, as others wanted badly, because yes, the demographic was vastly different and that would only cause problems. The whole point of the letter was that we should follow his footsteps.
RMS also came out of Baltimore, and he was contemporaries, more or less, with R. Herman Neuberger, who was very much someone who saw the bigger picture. Most of the leaders of Jewish communal life came out of Baltimore, including the current and past head of the OU, and many of the Young Israel rabbinate. Lakewood has many successes, but it also has failures, and ערבות is a huge one.
I'm a big fan of all the people you mentioned, especially the current head of the OU (If you mean Rabbi Hauer) who I know personally. I think that you are right that Ner Yisrael produced this more, and many people who make it to the top in Lakewood don't, but I wouldn't pass such a full judgement on everyone coming out of this town.
Agreed. In a comment, though, one has to be concise and cant give every caveat and qualification that one can write in a full post. Clearly though, every town with a good size frum population will have its own flavor and its own strengths and weaknesses.
(I did mean Rabbi Hauer, I know him too. Tho I'm not a Baltimorean, I've been a bunch of times to Sharei Zion.)
The letter (from a Lakewood resident) is not fully in touch with Lakewood (and its surrounding towns). There is a large minority of residents that are more Agudish than Lakewood Yeshivish or are somewhere inbetween. Granted that many people in Lakewood are not much affiliated with Agudah, but not everyone is so far from that world view presented in the article. I suppose the writer lives in one of the areas of his type, as there are plenty of neighborhoods...but he is not presenting an accurate view of all residents, including surrounding towns, and their world views.
As an early millennial, I think this message resonates with the older generation more than my own, at least from the narrow perspective of a Brooklyn-Lakewood yeshiva graduate. After my post-graduate degree, it's hard to relate to my younger self anymore. But the Moetzos/Agudah actions do not deviate from my "deepest convictions"; on the contrary! Rather DESPITE my reservations, even disgust, with their position, I still instinctively, viscerally defend their position when challenged. I'm not sure why. It seems my foundational Jewish identity was carved in Gadol bedrock; any challenge is reflexively parried. Millennial/postmellennial yeshiva graduates of my type are probably far from the majority of the Agudah following demographic. Many of similar background surely differ from my experience. Perhaps there are many others like me, uncomfortably but deeply wedged into my right wing base. I'm curious if anyone else can relate. Convictions is the wrong word, though; most strong convictions of my youth have dried up, unreplaced. But deep I am within the Moetzos mindset, for better or for worse. This one was hard to take though...
It just shows how embedded ideology is. How replaced religious practice and norms with “hashkafa” has corroded everyone. The Litvish “gedolim״ worshiping community aren’t the only ones dealing with this. Gur, Satmar, and Chabad also have their issues with their hashkafa and dissonance with the real world
It's complicated. I had the merit to get a car ride together with a Rov who is part of the Agudah leadership a few years ago (not from the actual Mo'etzes, but the Agudah has a roster of renowned community Rabbonim who are involved in an influential way). This was shortly after the Novominsker Rebbe was nifter and he explained to me that the Agudah was finding itself increasingly less relevant. Whereas up until the 90s and early 2000s there were many shuls and Yidden who affiliated with the Agudah, due to the mass migration to Lakewood, that was quickly dying down. The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva made it clear to the Agudah many years ago that they do not want Agudah shuls opening up in Lakewood, they felt it would detract from the flavor of the community they were trying to build. (Obviously by now Lakewood is so big that it's a hefkervelt and everyone can do whatever the heck they want, but they probably still do not want to tamper with the status quo).
This was creating a huge issue, where the largest and fastest growing community in the US felt no affinity to the Agudah, whereas places that had previously been bastions of Agudah supporters were slowly thinning out. Therefore, in a bid to pander to a wider base, the Agudah took the bold step of adding a whole bunch of leading Lakewood Rabbonim. If the desired effect was that the Lakewood community should become 'Agudists' en masse, then this gambit did not accomplish its goal. But I believe that it did lead people from the Lakewood community to take statements and positions from the Mo'etzes Gedolei Hatorah more seriously. So in place of an organization that sees itself as THE voice for Chareidi Jewry in the US being completely alienated and estranged from the largest frum community in the US, they did manage to regain some relevance for themselves.
However, as the Agudah is finding out, it's going to be extremely hard to try to appeal to the old-time New York baalebatishe Agudist and the new generation of Lakewood Yeshiva community at the same time.
I dont fully understand. Is agudah mainly for balei batim? I thought they always represented the litvishe gedolim.
Nosson, did you write this letter? How many times have you predicted the end of the chareidi world in the past 15 years? 50? 100? It will never happen! Am Yisrael Chai! People like you who are trying to promote secularism and kefira will descend to Hell, and we will remain.
How did this get 9 likes? Goodness. I think sender ze'ev usually has some important points but what was the point here?
They're part of a group with a pack mentality who feels the need to constantly mutually reinforce their views. It makes them feel good I guess. I've pointed out that phenomenon before here.
But probably not as good as pretending you've scored a "zinger" on them with such comments, eh, Weaver?
yeah there's a lot of comments from different haredi types here, most of them in fact. yet most do not have 2 many likes. why did Natan Jesus get so many?
Well, most people probably are...
Got it. I think the author is just pointing out problems unlike slifkin who has an axe to grind
One who is a charadi supporter uses J as part of his blog name?! Talk about twisted!
This letter actually deals with a serious issue and identifies it properly as opposed to other complaints that are commonly seen here. I always say this blog would be worth more if this was the focus.
It's not really an aguda problem. It's a 'community' problem. Most issues deserve different responses for different communities. For someone in Lakewood who is living a very lofty torah life, things that need internet should be treif, hence 24/6. But that is for a very, very specific demographic. For most people it's okay and even a good thing. The rabonim of those people would allow. But Lakewood or the aguda r putting out massive statements about small things that depend wholly on the constituents. Of course internet is not a good thing but most people absolutely need it and we can't put out statements now about 24/6 being an issue for that broader community.
This is not actually an issue because the Lakewood rabonim are talking to their followers, kol hakavod. But in this age, it travels as if it's for all of klal yisroel (and the kanaim make them sound like they really are) and it just ends up looking off.
I can go on but I think my point is clear
Correct, good points
Again with the name calling and J.
I'm beginning to suspect your leanings.
The following anonymous letter has also been circulating:
Dear Agudah Yid,
I write to you as someone who considers himself an “Pro-Israel” even if I missed the rally due to pressing mental health issues! You should be aware that there is not a neat division between "Lakewood" and "Smiling Chilled Baltimore Agudah People Who Wear Black Hats". Rather, there is spectrum. And on the spectrum, people respect each other. Rav Olshin respects Rav Heineman. Rav Shlomo Miller respects Rav Reisman. Nobody respects Shlomo Riskin. So take a chill pill.
Signed,
Chilled Yeshivish Agudah guy
You can add my signature as well!
"Nobody respects Shlomo Risking" It's Nathan or Natan Risking
Mixed things up.sorry.
Of your ilk.
It seems this letter writer is a bit naive, thinking that the Moetzes always agreed to each other. This is not the first time that members of the moetzes disagreed with each other, so they didn't release any official statement.
Agudah did the right thing. They did not endorse, nor condemn, the rally, and let everyone follow the Rabbanin they'd like
Interesting point
Its not a crises. Is the kav/gush divide a crisis in Israel? Ppl will go their seperate hashkafic ways and thats it. Its only a crisis for those who see some ideal in an umbrella chareidi position.
Spot on.
yeah the thing is that Israel has been sectarian for a long time already, in the us the non-hasidic haredim try to keep united. maybe things aren't tenable that way anymore. i dont know and not saying for certain im just trying to read the tea leaves
Anything similar happening in Israel?
Oh, absolutely. I'll discuss it in a separate post.
i believe your knowledge of haredim is more those in israel. in the us its a whole different political scene and culture. not sure if its in any way comparable.
This "letter" is a very poorly disguised attempt to promote modern orthodoxy and the OU, under the guise of pretending to come from an Agudah guy. One has to have the brains of a mollusk not to see through this.
I disagree. You don't think there is an issue, for example, with banning pshuto shel mikra?
There's no issue with that whatsoever because no one really cares.
Lol true that
I wasnt commenting on that, I was saying the letter is painfully obviously not from an Agudah type, regardless of where he grew up. Agduah guys dont use the word "yeeden" in print; that's something only a Modo guy trying to sound what he THINKS an agudah guy sounds like.
i actually thought he had a good point
Natan, why was this important letter anonymous? Is intimidation in the Adidas community so overpowering that any constructive criticism must be anonymous? This bodes badly.
In the religious community earnest free expression of ideas is pretty far down the totem pole of community values. Hence the abundance of pseudonyms here. Those of us using our real names are not in the haredi shidduch game .
Also it's not yeshivish to care lol
Yes that is a thing and I have seen it personally.
Looks like my comment didn't show. I will try again.
There is no intimidation in the Adidas community, except to not buy Nike
Again J.You cease to amaze me.
There is no intimidation in the Adidas community, except to not buy Nike
A decent letter overall, but I do take issue with the line that nobody questions the greatness of the "Gedolim" on Fakewood. There are absolutely a number of people who, particularly following their issuance of their abhorrent Kol Koreh, absolutely do - and it's a long time coming for the Erev Rabbanim in question.
Looks like my comment didn't show so I. will try again
Nosson, did you write this? How many times have you predicted the end of the chareidi world in the past 18 years? 50? 100? It will never happen! Am Yisrael Chai! Kofrim like you who are trying to promote secularism and kefira will descend to Hell, and we will remain!
It seems this letter writer is a bit naive, thinking that the Moetzes always agreed to each other. This is not the first time that members of the moetzes disagreed with each other, so they didn't release any official statement.
Agudah did the right thing. They did not endorse, nor condemn, the rally, and let everyone follow the Rabbanin they'd like
The letter is dumb, but the Agudah failed, big time, and I will tell you why, very simply: the RYs are running it instead of the ballei battim.
Bekitzur Nimratz, the Agudah's always claimed to be guided by its Moetzes, but R' Moshe Sherer was never shy about "influencing" the Moetzes, and because they didn't speak English and he did, they always listened to him. That's not the case any more. The rosh yeshivahs are controlling the show, and because of the inherent nature of things (left lurches left, right lurches right) the kannoim are running things and the more reasonable voices are afraid to speak up. No different than wokeness in corporate board rooms.
You have no reason to believe me, I realize, but I'm just telling you, this IS the problem. (And for the record - just bc I'm honest enough to acknowledge problems within the Agudah doesn't mean NS is right. He hasn't said one correct thing since the war started other than on this failure of the Agudah to properly support the rally. Anything he's said about "charedim" or the draft are shtus vi'hevel.)
You think rav sherer manipulated the litvishe gedolim for decades?
Manipulated is a strong word, I don't say that. He "guided" them. To some that may sounds like semantics, but its not. It's no different than any CEO or School Administrator making a recommendation to the Board.
I don't agree with Gavrin at all in this case, but mentioning Moshe Sherer actually has a lot to do with this conversation, since he played a big role in balancing the Moetzes, and now we know why. The Aguda was much more of a unified Umbrella Organization for decades to his credit. He was extremely strong that the Aguda in US should not join with Israel, as others wanted badly, because yes, the demographic was vastly different and that would only cause problems. The whole point of the letter was that we should follow his footsteps.
RMS also came out of Baltimore, and he was contemporaries, more or less, with R. Herman Neuberger, who was very much someone who saw the bigger picture. Most of the leaders of Jewish communal life came out of Baltimore, including the current and past head of the OU, and many of the Young Israel rabbinate. Lakewood has many successes, but it also has failures, and ערבות is a huge one.
I'm a big fan of all the people you mentioned, especially the current head of the OU (If you mean Rabbi Hauer) who I know personally. I think that you are right that Ner Yisrael produced this more, and many people who make it to the top in Lakewood don't, but I wouldn't pass such a full judgement on everyone coming out of this town.
Agreed. In a comment, though, one has to be concise and cant give every caveat and qualification that one can write in a full post. Clearly though, every town with a good size frum population will have its own flavor and its own strengths and weaknesses.
(I did mean Rabbi Hauer, I know him too. Tho I'm not a Baltimorean, I've been a bunch of times to Sharei Zion.)
"there is no member of the Modern Orthodox world on your Moetzes despite there being many great Talmidei Chachamim among them"
In the 20th century, Rabbi Dr. Leo Jung and Rabbi Dr. Joseph Soloveitchik were members. That was a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.
Rav Soloveitchik was the Executive Vice President of Agudas Yisroel of America for many years.
The letter (from a Lakewood resident) is not fully in touch with Lakewood (and its surrounding towns). There is a large minority of residents that are more Agudish than Lakewood Yeshivish or are somewhere inbetween. Granted that many people in Lakewood are not much affiliated with Agudah, but not everyone is so far from that world view presented in the article. I suppose the writer lives in one of the areas of his type, as there are plenty of neighborhoods...but he is not presenting an accurate view of all residents, including surrounding towns, and their world views.
As an early millennial, I think this message resonates with the older generation more than my own, at least from the narrow perspective of a Brooklyn-Lakewood yeshiva graduate. After my post-graduate degree, it's hard to relate to my younger self anymore. But the Moetzos/Agudah actions do not deviate from my "deepest convictions"; on the contrary! Rather DESPITE my reservations, even disgust, with their position, I still instinctively, viscerally defend their position when challenged. I'm not sure why. It seems my foundational Jewish identity was carved in Gadol bedrock; any challenge is reflexively parried. Millennial/postmellennial yeshiva graduates of my type are probably far from the majority of the Agudah following demographic. Many of similar background surely differ from my experience. Perhaps there are many others like me, uncomfortably but deeply wedged into my right wing base. I'm curious if anyone else can relate. Convictions is the wrong word, though; most strong convictions of my youth have dried up, unreplaced. But deep I am within the Moetzos mindset, for better or for worse. This one was hard to take though...
I relate. It lessened for me with awareness over time.
"gadol bedrock" is a nice phrase.
It just shows how embedded ideology is. How replaced religious practice and norms with “hashkafa” has corroded everyone. The Litvish “gedolim״ worshiping community aren’t the only ones dealing with this. Gur, Satmar, and Chabad also have their issues with their hashkafa and dissonance with the real world