Your accusation of the Belzer Rav is appalling in its ignorance.
The British controlled immigration to Palestine, and the WZO got their hands on those papers. Yes, one was given to the Belzer Rav. But how does he owe them any thanks for that? They snatched control over the immigration papers, and then released some of them. Does a thief deserve thanks for returning a tiny percentage of the money he stole?
Reading about the activities of the Zionists during the Holocaust, even from Zionist sources, such as Z. Warhaftig, tells you a lot about their mindset and their activities to 'save' people. The amount of attempts they disturbed, as well as the little they did when they could have done so much more, should tell us a little about the gratitude anybody owes them.
And its not true that he told people to stay. That is a distortion of his words. His brother said in his name that he thinks Hungary will be saved and he was leaving because he wished to travel to EY. He didn't tell anyone to stay behind.
" he is not fleeing… he only desires to move to the Holy Land… and the pious rebbe foresees that residents of this city will live in peace and serenity…Only good and kindness will pursue and reach our Jewish brethren in this country… "
" the Tzaddik sees that there will prevail here, for the residents of this country [Hungary], rest and tranquility"
" He didn't tell anyone to stay behind."
Well, he assured those stayed behind. Not much of a difference. Nevertheless, a distinction can be made. We must face facts. There was not going to be a mass exodus. Neither more efforts of the Zionists, general or revisionists, nor the brave & audacious, but unrealistic schemes, of R' Weissmandl's group were going to change that. So an argument can be made for reassuring those doomed to be left behind. Indeed, while escape on scale was not possible, there was the option of hiding. A little hope and less fatalism may have assisted those who survived via the latter.
So while you can claim that there's a lack of nuance and context, you shouldn't make accusations of distortion.
You've also omitted the fact that when the rebbe's drasha was printer after the war, those words of assurance to the doomed were censored out. Was that a distortion?
"...nor the brave & audacious, but unrealistic schemes, of R' Weissmandl's group were going to change that. So an argument can be made for reassuring those doomed to be left behind."
Your intentionally vague words, stated straightforwardly are: let's ignore the Jews who probably will be killed anyway and not try as hard as we can to save at least some of them since we can't possibly get them all anyhow.
If I understood him, he is really agreeing with you; he is only attempting to understand what the rationale of the other side is. It isn't even his own opinion. He said clearly that the statement was tantamount to telling people not to escape with him.
I'll read it again, maybe I'm the one who misunderstood.
One thing he is adamant about is justifying the zionists zeal to ignore and actively derail attempts made to rescue tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of Jews from the holocaust via "trucks for goods" deals with Eichmann... those hundreds of thousands of Jews perished...their blood is on the heads of those zionist founders yimach shimam...there is no way of getting around these facts of history.
You misunderstood. I wasn't offering my personal opinion. I was reacting to Sender's claims that the rebbe " didn't tell anyone to stay behind." I wrote "he assured those stayed behind" and offered a distinction between "telling" and "assuring". All I did was to suggest a charitable reading of the rebbe's address. Nevertheless, the address remains problematic, as is demonstrated by the censoring of it when it was first published.
" stated straightforwardly are"
If my words are vague, why are you imposing a "straightforward" interpretation that I never wrote? Let the vagueness remain! In any case, your "straightforward" reading is wrong, and I completely deny ever have meant what you divined from my words.
Let me tell You something about those “rabbis” who abandoned their flocks….my father was in the camp with the Satmar rebbi. You want to guess what happened when people woke up in the morning and realized he had left them behind? Sure those who met him in Switzerland rejoiced, but…for better or worse a rabbi’s place is with his followers and NOT to escape leaving them to die agonizing deaths. Did you ever speak to survivors that were abandoned by the Satmar rebbe and the belzer rebbe? Do you have any idea what depth of despair they were thrown into by thier leaders saving their own skins??? Many rabbis who could have fled STAYED. They are the heroes to be emulated. Not those cowards that ran to save their own skins. For SHAME on those who escaped leaving their flocks behind. FOR SHAME!!!
Nice to see people with such a cavalier attitude to other people's lives. The Satmar and Belzer Rebbes should have died, because that's what they want.
As usual you miss the point. Even spider man gets it. With great power comes great responsibility. Those rabbis basically ran their followers lives without them they had no guidance. What they did was wrong morally socially and Al pi Halacha. Captain Smith of the titanic acted braver than them.
Are you suggesting that the Belzer and Satmarer Rebbes risk their lives on the say so of Spider man?
Your hyperbole suggests you don't have any actual complaints.
I, for one, are happy with everyone who was rescued. Little long-term benefit would have been had by anyone if they had stayed behind, and we have gained much from the presence of the pre-war leaders in our post-war world.
It's very unclear if "The captain is the last to leave his sinking ship." is a Jewish value. Although as per our other discussion, לשיטתך, so much of the Torah is taken from non-Jewish sources anyways, so why not this? 😄. In any case, in those cases it was a matter of the captain having other ships that needed saving, which we see they were BH very successful with. Our secularist friend above is just mad that the Belzer Rebbe didn't die so that there would be fewer hassidim to bother him.
What the hell? How DARE you blame someone for escaping certain death! You are completely out of your mind, full stop. What about people that grabbed a chance to escape which meant they lost their familes. They should also die?
You have a problem that they "ran to save their own skins" from being gased and cremated? You are a very very sick person.
The issue at hand is whether a leader reassured his ardent followers who lived by his word that all will be fine. No one really expects anyone not to try and save their own skin (חייך קודמים).
The Satmarer Rebbe was never in a camp, so his imaginary father was not in this imaginary camp with him. Unless he meant Bergen-Belsen, in which case he was in a separate part of the camp, and was from the second group to be freed, leaving nobody behind.
The idea that the forsight of going to Israel during WW2 was smarter than staying behind is a common myth, yet plain stupid to anyone who read up on how close the nazis were to capturing Israel. Hindsight is 20-20.
It's also pretty stupid to be against meshalim because when two sides argue this is like one is the best tactics to allow an opponent to see your point from a familiar angle. The dodgy mashal thing test brings up disallows the flow of good conversation. If I didn't know better I may have thought that he doesn't wanna get anywhere!
You never (yes, I know, never say never) find mosholim in the works of the gedolei acharonim and roshei yeshivos. I have never heard mosholim in the shiurim from the gedolei roshei yeshivos that I have heard.
Why do you think that is? A well explained sevoroh, a beautiful chiluk, a 'fester chakirah' stands on its own and does need a moshol.
Use of moshol means the discussion between chavrusohs is diverted on the moshol, its applicability, trying to establish that it is not a good moshol, etc etc. Rather then the 'etzem nekudah', as we say in yeshivish.
ואני פותח הדברים בזה הפרק במשל שאשאהו לך. ואומר: כי המלך הוא בהיכלו ואנשיו כולם – קצתם אנשי המדינה וקצתם חוץ למדינה, ואלו אשר במדינה – מהם מי שאחוריו אל בית המלך ומגמת פניו בדרך אחרת, ומהם מי שרוצה ללכת אל בית המלך ומגמתו אליו, ומבקש לבקר בהיכלו ולעמוד לפניו, אלא שעד היום לא ראה פני חומת הבית כלל; ומן הרוצים לבוא אל הבית – מהם שהגיע אליו והוא מתהלך סביבו מבקש למצוא השער, ומהם מי שנכנס בשער והוא הולך בפרוזדור, ומהם מי שהגיע עד שנכנס אל תוך הבית והוא עם המלך במקום אחד שהוא בית המלך; ולא בהגיעו אל תוך הבית יראה המלך או ידבר עמו, אבל אחר הגיעו אל תוך הבית אי אפשר לו מבלתי שישתדל השתדלות אחרת, ואז יעמוד לפני המלך ויראהו מרחוק או מקרוב, או ישמע דבר המלך או ידבר עמו.
והנני מפרש לך זה המשל אשר חדשתי לך, ואומר:
I guess the Rambam was one of those dodgy yeshivish types. As was the Ramchal. Heck, there are explicit meshalim in tanach. Dovid Hamelech could have used you to help him call out Nasan hanavi's dodgy mashal with the poor man and his sheep.
והוא מה שלמדונו זכרונם לברכה במדרש קהלת, זו לשונם (קהלת רבה ו ו): "וגם הנפש לא תמלא, משל למה הדבר דומה, לעירוני שנשא בת מלך, אם יביא לה כל מה שבעולם, אינם חשובים לה כלום, שהיא בת מלך כך הנפש, אילו הבאת לה כל מעדני עולם, אינם כלום לה, למה שהיא מן העליונים".
והוא מה שאמרו ז"ל (בבא בתרא עח, ב): על כן יאמרו המושלים בואו חשבון – על כן יאמרו המושלים ביצרם, בואו ונחשב חשבונו של עולם, הפסד מצוה כנגד שכרה ושכר עברה כנגד הפסדה וכו'. וזה, כי העצה האמיתית הזאת, לא יוכלו לתת אותה ולא לראות אמיתה אלא אותם שכבר יצאו מתחת יד יצרם ומשלו בו. כי מי שהוא עדין חבוש במאסר יצרו, אין עיניו רואות האמת הזאת ואינו יכול להכירה, כי היצר מסמא את עיניו ממש, והנה הוא כהולך בחושך שיש לפניו מכשולות ואין עיניו רואות אותם. והוא מה שאמרו ז"ל (בבא מציעא פג, ב): תשת חושך ויהי לילה (תהלים קד, כ), זה העולם הזה, שדומה ללילה.
והבן כמה נפלא המאמר האמיתי הזה למי שמעמיק להבין בו. כי הנה חושך הלילה שני מיני טעיות אפשר לו שיגרום לעין האדם: או יכסה את העין עד שלא יראה מה שלפניו כלל, או שיטעה אותו עד שיראה עמוד כאילו הוא אדם, ואדם כאילו הוא עמוד כן חומריות וגשמיות העולם הזה, הנה הוא חושך הלילה לעין השכל, וגורם לו שתי טעויות: האחת אינו מניח לו שיראה המכשולות שבדרכי העולם, ונמצאים הפתאים הולכים לבטח ונופלים ואובדים מבלי שהגיעם פחד תחלה. והוא מה שאמר הכתוב (משלי ד, יט): דרך רשעים כאפלה לא ידעו במה יכשלו, ואומר (משלי כב, ג): ערום ראה רעה ונסתר ופתיים עברו ונענשו, ואומר (משלי יד, טז): וכסיל מתעבר ובוטח, כי לבם בריא להם כאולם, ונופלים טרם ידעו מהמכשול כלל. והטעות השניה והיא קשה מן הראשונה היא שמטעה ראייתם עד שרואים הרע כאלו הוא ממש טוב, והטוב כאילו הוא רע, ומתוך כך מתחזקים ומחזיקים מעשיהם הרעים. כי אין די שחסרה מהם ראיית האמת לראות הרעה אשר נגד פניהם, אלא שנראה להם למצוא ראיות גדולות ונסיונות מוכיחים לסברותיהם הרעות ולדעותיהם הכוזבות, וזאת היא הרעה הגדולה המלפפתם ומביאתם אל באר שחת. והוא מה שאמר הכתוב (ישעיה ו, י): השמן לב העם הזה ואזניו הכבד ועיניו השע פן וגו', וכל זה מפני היותם תחת החושך וכבושים המה תחת ממשלת יצרם. אך אותם שכבר יצאו מן המאסר הזה, הם רואים האמת לאמיתו ויכולים ליעץ שאר בני אדם עליו.
הא למה זה דומה? לגן המבוכה, הוא הגן הנטוע לצחוק, הידוע אצל השרים, שהנטיעות עשויות כתלים כתלים, וביניהם שבילים רבים נבוכים ומעורבים, כולם דומים זה לזה, והתכלית בם הוא להגיע אל אכסדרה אחת שבאמצעם. ואמנם השבילים האלה מהם ישרים ומגיעים באמת אל האכסדרה, ומהם משגים את האדם ומרחיקים אותו ממנה. ואמנם ההולך בין השבילים הוא לא יוכל לראות ולדעת כלל אם הוא בשביל האמיתי או בכוזב, כי כולם שוים ואין הפרש ביניהם לעין הרואה אותם, אם לא שידע הדרך בבקיאות וטביעות עין שכבר נכנס בם והגיע אל התכלית שהוא האכסדרה. והנה העומד כבר על האכסדרה הוא רואה כל הדרכים לפניו ומבחין בין האמתיים והכוזבים, והוא יוכל להזהיר את ההולכים בם, לומר: זה הדרך לכו בו! והנה, מי שירצה להאמין לו, יגיע למקום המיועד. ומי שלא ירצה להאמין וירצה ללכת אחר עיניו, ודאי שישאר אובד ולא יגיע אליו.
if you really need examples on a higher level, this whole world is just a moshol that God Almighty gives to explain Himself. but then again, He is pretty yeshivish...
have you never listened to someone explaining a really hard concept with the use of a moshol??? it's super helpful dude. i'm not sure what your beef is. you really can't follow what people ar trying to bring out of a moshol?
richard dawkins is very not yeshivish, ike very, very not yeshivish. but when explaining concepts to religious people, like trying to open up their world view.... he uses the power of moshol. like dozens of times. it's very powerful!
You are right. This moshol is missing critical details: The thief stole out of a (perceived, at the very least) need to save lives. Lives were saved. He deserves recognition.
"The Department of State continues to advise that U.S. citizens do not travel to Ukraine due to the active armed conflict."
Canadian Gov't: Avoid all travel to Ukraine due to the Russian military invasion.
UK: "continues to advise British nationals against all travel to Ukraine. This is because the risks are too high."
Germany: "The German government advises againt travelling this country. Danger level: 5 - Do not travel."
France: the government of France updated its travel guidance for French nationals in Ukraine. French nationals are advised to postpone all trips to Ukraine, including trips for essential purposes.
Sweden: has decided to advise against all travel to Ukraine due to changes in the security situation.
"Russia would have to be crazy"
After vouching for safety of travel in ignorance of all professional advice, you now claim expertise in the sanity of nations during war? Two strikes!
You're usually more careful than this. Read it again and compare the two warnings. The warning against traveling to Ukraine is most severe than the warning against travel to Israel.
And yes, I would avoid certain places when there are reasons to believe that rocket fire is a possibility. I've trained my family what to do in case of a siren. And I try to remain aware of locations of nearby shelters in the case of an attack. There are not enough shelters for the 50,000 Uman revelers.
That was a simple example that I found. The US State Department has in the past issued some very strict travel warning to israel. If you really look you can find them.
There is no such thing as 'Russia'. It's not a well organised disciplined army, is it? 'Russia' would be crazy, but there are plenty of nutcases in the army there that may have done something.
Nutcases could do anything anywhere at anytime. What makes this different is the war. But if the war itself poses no risk, is there reason to be more worried?
חשש רחוק is not the correct terminology when considering the halachik attitude to risk. The criteria whether the risk is 'dosh bo rabbim'. And I don't think travelling to Ukraine is 'dosh bo rabbim', unlike other risks we take every day, like driving.
"Chances of risk" (whatever that actually means) is not used in halochoh. It is terms like 'dosh bo rabbim' that are used to define levels of risk in halochoh.
For example all evidence may show you that diet soda (or any soda for that matter) is incredibly unhealthy for health containing all sorts of nasty chemicals. So why is it muttar? Becuase 'dosh bo rabbim'.
All evidence may show you that travel to the space station is incredibly safe. But it is not 'dosh bo rabbim', so you would still need to ask a competent rov before taking the trip.
Rav Cherlow in his post quoted the Chazon Ish (Emunah u-Bitachon) that G-d does what is best that does not mean he does what we want. Jewish history before Zionism demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jews
Jewish history after Zionism also demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jews.
More people have been killed in Israel since the establishment of the State, as a percentage of their Jewish population, than any other country in the world. Hardly a bastion of safety.
Bibi also said something stupid here, there is plenty to go around.
I'm repeating what the Tanach warns about ad nauseam. There will be punishment if the nation abandons the faith.
The European Jews rebelled against G-d in a massive way in the years leading up to the holocaust. There were many secular types, socialists, nationalists, zionists, yiddishists, atheists, you name it. The common theme was dumping their religion.
You weren't clear. You first mentioned "zionists" and now you mentioned " many secular types, socialists, nationalists, zionists, yiddishists, atheists".
By including more generations of sinners, you may well have evaded the heresy charge, as held by Rav Shach. Congratulations!
Of course, the Lubavitcher Rebbe held otherwise. And the Satmar Rebbe held otherwise.
Re the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he seems to have contradicted himself on that. He came out against R Schach at the time, but it was found in his earlier writings that it was for a particular sin.
Rav Yaacov Emden wrote that the reason we're in Galut and suffer years of prosecution and murder is because we stayed in Galut instead of settling in EY.
If in fact wrote that, it was at a time when the masses of Jews kept the Torah and mitzvos.
You think R. Emden believed that if millions of Jews who threw away the Torah settled in Israel and kept just one mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel out of 613 mitzvahs ....but they ignored the rest...that would be enough to bring Moshaich? That is laughable.
Hopefully enough good Jews that keep all the mitzvos are living in Israel today to hasten the redemption but your interpretation of what he may have said is faulty.
Are you of the opinion that Israel is a safe haven for Jews? Against all evidence? Do you not care about those that have been killed?
And you're calling me unpleasant was uncalled for.
The Meraglim had a promise that they would conquer Eretz Yisroel and win the war. We do not have such a promise. The difference could not be more stark?
Interesting how it's always the secularists who are the quickest to talk about how much they hate and loathe other people. And this one all but threatening violence. I almost never see chareidim engaging in such rhetoric. It's *always* the secularists. Curious, isn't it?
You are highly unpleasant and objectionable and if this conversation was in person you might have suffered the consequences from any number of people here who loathe you and your comments. You are basically apologizing for anti israel propaganda
"Jewish history after Zionism also demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jew"
According to HaModia, the official voices of Daas Torah, and Eicher & Shas, you are a heretic for you deny that "“God has always protected the people of Israel.”
Intersting. After 6 million died in the holocaust you bring up the numbers of the remaining jews in the world and compare the percentage in Israel. Seriously.
Almost every country in europe had their jewish population wiped out. So you are comparing the percentage of jews in in israel to what the united states? Thats a very flawed argument.
No, I compared the casualties of Jews in the US, England, Australia, France, Mexico, Switzerland, Russia, and more countries to Israel. Israel is not a safe haven for Klal Yisroel yet.
If it had existed during WWII, I find it unlikely it would have helped much. Especially after so few secular Zionist leaders actually cared enough to help when they didn't have a state. Whenever they brought up the rescue of trapped Jews to representatives of countries around the world, they met sympathy. When they mentioned Palestine as the solution, they lost that sympathy. Yet they continued to do so.
When the Zionist leaders did not have a state to protect, they still ignored many of the pleas for help from the trapped Jews.
Many of Rabbi Weissmandl's plans were quite sane and logical, but the zionist ideology was opposed to appeasement. The zionists blocked those plans too, not just the fanciful ones.
If they had a state to protect, they would certainly not care about anything but that state, ignoring Jewish lives along the way. על פי דרך הטבע, a state in Israel would not have protected anyone during the Holocaust.
Wrong criteria. Desperate times call for desperate measures. His scheme was predicated on the possibility of illegally transferring massive funds to the enemy in wartime, and that the Nazis would be honorable and keep their part of the bargain. It also assumed that the Nazi offer was a serious one, and not a plan to sow division among the allies.
" the zionist ideology was opposed to appeasement. "
When I was a kid, my rebbe told a story about a Jew who, when his son was drafted in WW1, went to some renowned rabbi to pray for God's protection. The great rabbi said we cannot ask God to do something we want. Rather, I can only ask that God's will shall be done. "Well then," I blurted out, "then, please do NOT pray for my son! If God's will is that my son die, why on earth would I ask God's will to be done? Don't do me no favors!"
I actually heard an interesting idea, that tefilla is before we know what Hashems will is so we ask for ours, and when we find out what Hashems will is that's where bitachon comes in, to accept Gods will.
If we know what the end endpoint will be, i.e., that God will exert his will (as he always does), then we already know our prayer is useless. Let's cut to the chase, hang out until God delivers his verdict, then accept it at that time without disappointment. When friends offer condolences that little Sidney fell at the battle of Khe Sanh, we can reply with bitachon: "It is what it is. I am just pleased as punch that God's will was done."
Don, if u r addressing me, I ask because I never got a decent answer, not in Machshava 101, and not in Machshava 10,001. If u have a simple answer, please fly it by me.
As the descendant of those who suffered horribly at the hands of Ukrainians, I cannot bring myself to journey there to spend my money. That's just me. That Russia invaded Ukraine against all international legal norms cannot induce me to exert any effort in Ukraine's defense. Sorry, not sorry.
I have no idea what this sentiment has to do with the thrust of this article - which relates to the clear wilful ignorance of so-called torah scholars on matters so plainly laid out in Torah. However, while I am not motivated to visit Ukraine, and most assuredly not Uman, these are different times. There are Jews who serve in the UKR forces and they have their own Rabbis and mobile Synagogues - the same cannot be said for the Russians - who have willingly bombed Jewish targets (Synagogues) and who TODAY appallingly seek to murder and enslave completely innocent people. If you equate today's Ukrainians with the erstwhile murderous Ukrainians, you are not applying tacheles - same as those Jews who fall for the idea that the current Russians are somehow the Soviets of yore.
Not to mention that Ukrainians elected a Jew as President by a blowout margin in a free and fair election. The Ukraine of today is clearly not the Ukraine of the past.
The people of Nineveh did tshuvah. Apparently at least a large majority of Ukrainians have as well.
They have a national responsibility for their horrific murders. Maybe lets not hate Amalek since it was long ago.
Sorry, we don't exonerate nations for henious crimes for stupid reasons like they elected a secular Jew or whatever other silly reasons. Ukraine would need to do a heck of a lot more to be exonerated for their national crimes. Yimach shimam
Nor were the Germans! Nor were many countries. The Egyptians and the Babylonians tortured and killed Jews only "at certain specific periods in history". That is the lamest defense imaginable for countries that butchered Jews.
Lol, this post is hilarious. How many horrible things have you accused Bibi of, how many countless times have you insulted him and called him names? Yet you're compelled to defend him here, bc the other side is Charedi - a type of Jew you hate even more than Bibi. What was it your ex-countryman said? "Misery acqaunts a man with strange bedfellows."
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
Re the post itself, it is mind-numbingly stupid and petty. Truly, is NS really that desperate to find something - anything! - he thinks useful to attack a Charedi Jew?
I notice there was no actual link to anything Aryeh Erlich actually said, only to a third-hand secularist media website, and that is one of the usual clues that we are getting some sort of distorted NS misrepresentation. Still another clue is the characterizations, eg, "Shas ANGRILY responded", rather than a straight quote. If one is to attack a man and write about it, one should quote his exact words and (on this site, if it involves Hebrew) language. I think we all know by now you can't accept things you read here unless you verify.
So far as I can tell about this tempest in a teapot, the shas guy said Bibi's statement - not Bibi himself - but his statement, that God didnt watch our for us in the Holocaust, constitutes apikorsus. Arguably that goes too far, but arguably its accurate. I dont know, and dont think its anything to get worked up, either from the shas side, the bibi side, or the observer side. Jews have been arguing for thousands of years over what exactly constitutes apikorsis. Is this really something anyone cares about? בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לן?
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
You've got it upside down. The statement was stupid because God decided to withhold His protection from the Holocaust. The statement was stupid because it falsely accused Bibi of making a heretical statement. Other than the character assassination, HaModia, Eichler and Shas may well be nominated for best tantrum in a dramatic performance. You're making the secondary character the main stars of their performance.
"Jews have been arguing for thousands of years over what exactly constitutes apikorsis. Is this really something anyone cares about?"
So you actually agree that HaModia, Eichler and Shas were wrong?
Tantrum? Character assassination? Dont drink the koolaid. To argue over what is and what isnt apikorsis is pointless. It remains amusing, however, that NS is happy to go to bat for a man he's frequently called a liar and a criminal, if he thinks it useful to attack a class of Jews he's called even worse.
A SEFARIA search yielded a long list of infidel rabbis who claim and also rule that where there is danger, one does not trust the miracle even in performing a mitzvah. The question: Do all these books belong in the trash immediately, or because they also contain holy memorials, do I have to cut all the memorials before I throw them in the trash? This is the list: פענח רזא, מאירי, הריב"ש, עקידת יצחק, מזרחי, הזוהר, מדרש רבה, המהר"ל מפראג, השל"ה, הרוקח, קרבן העדה ופני משה על ירושלמי, אור החיים, היעב"ץ, החתם סופר, בועז על המשנה, רש"ר הירש, ערוך השולחן, בן איש חי,
You have wrong pshat in all of them! I won't even explain them since you just won't understand anyway! See איגרת על הביטחון from R. Y.B. Bloch that no one with bitachon was ever let down in history, and when Chazal say אל יעמיד אדם עצמו במקום סכנה ולא יסמוך על נס that is only when he doesn't have proper bitachon, as it says only not to rely on a miracle but one may rely on bitachon.
(Now just for all here who don't have a sense of humor, yes I am not serious, just parating a radical response.)
"...he was merely pointing out that God does not always protect Jews, for whatever reason, and that Europe is a good example of that."
"For whatever reason" The problem exactly! He said G-d didn't always protect but like a good rasha Netanyahu refused to finish the sentence and suggest WHY it may have happened based on open verses in Torah, (which he likes to do) and historical facts. Instead he made it seem like there is no good reason. Netanyahu is a lowlife for wording it that way.
Throughout Torah and Nach it is constantly repeated that Hashem will punish if He is thrown away.
Leading up to the holocaust, the European Jews rebelled mightily against G-d's Torah. Hashem didn't protect because like He warned, He wouldn't protect if His nation rebels. Don't hide the truth with a childish "for whatever reason".
He is right about not placing onesself in danger and relying on Hashem. But the implication of his words were something else, namely that G-d doesn't protect for good reason, which is a flat out lie.
Naturally, while secular Netanyahu can point to the Torah about guarding one's health and such, he can not discuss the much more common theme of punishment. After all, he is a shabbos profaner himself. Netanyahu knows he ignores the Torah. So he yells about the few things he likes and ignores the rest.
What a liar. What a rasha. Whoever called him out is a hero.
" like a good rasha Netanyahu refused to finish the sentence and suggest WHY..."
We all read the attacks against Bibi. No one complained that he should have completed the sentence with your suggest emendations. You're making up stuff that doesn't appear in HaModia official voice of Daas Torah. And you have sought to replace the words of the representatives of Daas Torah, Eichler & Shas with your own ideas.
On the other hand, given the history of the country, it's kind of nice to heard the PM mention G-d once in a while.
Good Jews speaking out against Netanyahu the rasha are saying the same thing. He claims G-d didn't protect the Jews. Actually Hashem does all the time. But what about the Holocaust which was what the Prime Minister was refering to?
Answer: that was punishment for violently rebelling against Judiasm, as plainly repeated in Tanach countless times.
Try hard as you can to fight that truth, it won't go away.
Oh, and the zionists leadership worked hard to stop the truck deals with Eichmann in exhange for Hungarian Jews. It's historical fact.
Did you zionists know what Eichman's plans were? No. So why did they prevent the deal from going through? Why were you so uncaring about their brethren's lives?
Nobody knows what would have happened, but we do know what people actually did, and the zionists failed the test of the time appallingly.
Again, Slifkin makes a red herring. I agree that Netanyahu should NOT have been criticized for choosing the wrong words to express Chazal (pesachim 64b), not to rely on miracles, But Eichler and others understood (or misunderstood) him to express words that indicate G-d doesn't protect the Jewish people. As for Zionists during WWII. Many of the leftwing atheists Zionists, the Ben Gurion type, helped the Nazis to exterminate the type of Jews that they saw as "undesirable". They also hated and wanted to keep Edos Hamizrach out, until they realized the Arabs had no intentions of peace and they needed every Jew they could get (both to put on the war front, and to become janitors and blue-collar workers). Most Zionists of the Begin type believed in saving all Jews, but there were some from the socialist type that also were traditional and were appalled at the atheist type Zionists attitude toward fellow Jews.
You are a joke. Not being on the same continent has zero to do with anything.
He and the zionist establishment worked very hard to stop the "Blood for Goods" deal by Eichmann. They tricked Joel Brand who was offered the deal by Eichmann so that he landed in jail to stop the deal.
They have the blood of thousands of Hungarian Jews on their heads. You can't change the facts!
Where were the 10,000 trucks were going to come from?
How were they to be transported from neutral/allied territory into Nazi hands?
What guarantee did the Nazis provide that they wouldn't just take the trucks and kill the Jews anyway? (Or were the Nazis more honest brokers than the PLO?)
Was the Nazi offer genuine or an attempt to split the allies?
Scary to read such vile Jew hate from a Jew. Let me get your wretched argument straight.
You argue that ben gurion (who we have on video saying not to hunt down Nazis) and his henchmen were right to get Joel Brand locked up to prevent any potential deal with Eichmann to save thousands of Hungarian Jewish lives because there was no guarantee it would work out....so the very best thing is not even to merely sit back and not try your very hardest to at least save some Jews, but even to actively break any deal that might actually go through.
It means the deal was in process. The zionists derailed what could have saved thousands and thousands of Jews from the gas chambers.. Face the facts. There is a mountain of evidence out there,
Do you believe in Hell, yes or no? Who goes there? Do Nazis go there? If there is a system of reward and punishment, which is a basic tenet of Judaism, did Hitler, maybe the worst man in history, escape punishment by killing himself, or is he presently in hell?
If hitler is in hell, what about nazi collaborators? If it can be demonstrated that the zionist enterprise eagerly derailed attempts to save Jews from the gas chambers...would you agree that they are presently in hell?
Or will you continue your blind mindless commitment to whatever you decided must be truth even if the opposite stares straight back in your face? Let me get a coherent, well written response. I know, there isn't any.
If that is the case, Avi, why don't u tour all the major yeshivas and set these gdolim straight? Surely, they would be grateful for u to clear up their misguided theology.
It wouldn't work. The Haredim are כופרים בעיקר. The central heresy of the Haredim is worship of more than one god. The "gdolim" are smart enough to realize that they are being worshiped along with the Real God. When I am דן לכף זכות I conjecture that it wouldn't do them any good to deny their divinity. The masses would keep on worshiping them anyway. When I am דן לחובה I conjecture that they enjoy the worship too much. The first conjecture is more likely: the first generation of חסידים deified the first אדמו"רים and it stuck and spread.
There's a strange new theology publicized in Shabbos pamphlets that you can bend Hashem to your will by merely acknowledging that everything is in his hands. True, the Rambam talks about it and Rav Chaim Soloveichik acted on it, but they're talking about finding lost keys or getting a car to start up.
Where is such a Rambam. I've been looking for the source of the idea the Chazon Ish calls a טעות מפורסם.
I also don't know what Rav Chaim you're referring to, do you mean Rav Chaim Valozhiner about אין עוד מלבדו? That was relied on once by the Brisker Rav when running from the Nazis, doing all in his ability to be safe, and when stuck, concentrated on that. There's an Ohr Hachaim that a "segula" to have Hashem go beyond nature for you is by focusing on his power to do anything. I am not aware of more.
I don't find it objectionable. The inadequacy of the charedi leadership has been addressed enough times to pass the point of being constructive and has become an obsession by you.
I only found out about this incident from your post. I doubt anyone around me even noticed it. People spoke about Berland being denied entry into Ukraine, but not about this. On עשרת ימי תשובה it's strange to blog about it.
Considering all of God's broken promises and all the other inconsistencies God throws at us, it is grotesque to believe that God actually DOES have answers, but refuses to clue us in. Then, orthodox thinkers take it to the next (illogical) step, that is SUPPOSED to be this way. U see, if we knew the greater good that God has in store for the faithful, then we would, chas v'shalom, lose our free will! Vey iz mir! So, 6M Jews were korbones to the disproved doctrine of Hitler's b'chira chafshis!
For starters...your very first sentence? You say it is grotesque to say G-d has answers and that He is full of broken promises. It takes a vile individual to talk against He who constantly gives you life every day and you slap Him in the face like that. No, judging by what you wrote, based on your obvious hatred for the One your nation has lived and died for, you are not a decent member of society. Just a hate filled outcast.
Nice response, but I think a more basic reason why this guy should reevaluate his status as a decent human being is based on his satire style of talking about an idea to people who live and die for it.
Avraham, I would gladly surrender some of Hitler's b'chira chafshis (and life) to save a few million Jews. After the 1st million, God could have done a "hidden" miracle and made it look like a crazy gun accident (but we Jews would know better).
2nd, why do some people try to minimize THE Holocaust by saying it is historically business-as-usual for God to abandon the Jews in a crisis? Takeh, u r right! God ALWAYS abandons us.
G-d created an imperfect world by design.He left it to Man to "subdue" it for good and for Man to create abetter moral, ethical and Torah observant society. Jews and Non-Jews have their role to play. G-d is involved in the world but Man essentially has the responsibility to improve it. When evil men proceed to do do evil it is Man's responsibility to overcome and destroy evil and make the world abetter place both physically and spiritually. The Holocaust is alow point in the
Fact: we r imperfect people in an imperfect world. Claims to answer as to WHY God intended it to be imperfect is unknowable. However, claiming that he did so in order for us to improve makes no sense. I am sick of the notion that God created dilemmas and tests us in order to teach us valuable lessons in self-improvement is circular reasoning. If he is loves perfection so much, why did he rig the entire system to teach us how to perfect it. If he created the world right, we would not even NEED lessons on how to perfect it. Your concept turns the world into a make-work jobs project to keep people busy. Pay some people to dig holes, and others to fill them up.
If they werent זוכה, then it wouldnt be proper judgement. The judgement was collective as most punishment described in the Torah ( chazal later emphasized a much more individual השגחה פרטית).
G-d already promised us exile and removal of divine protection for not keeping His Torah.
Now that He began the ingathering of the exiles were seeing much more השגחה but nothing is guaranteed.
You know Hashem recently started the process of the ingathering of the exiles because? You have no hard proof at all.
We know Moshiach WILL come, and we pray it happens soon, but we don't know WHEN. Any source you may have from this or that gadol is really a reflection of their strong, authentic desire for it to happen soon, not hard knowledge of timing.
All we know is that it will certainly happen. Rambam is very clear on this point.
Ever read rambam on bar kochva? Geula is a natural process. We only know for sure once its over but while its happening we need to support it as בר כוכבא was בחזקת משיח untill he fell.
Theres a gemara which says that the קץ המגולה is when the land bears its fruit. I think its simple that קיבוץ גליות just means that were back in the land and restore sovereignty (ירושת הארץ as the Ramban would hold). Mashiach ben david and sanhedrin are another story.
You say we only know for certain once it's over. So, we essentially agree. It's just a question of your thinking based on your source that a certain process has begun...but it cannot be stated as fact until it happens, which it certainly will one day, hopefully soon.
It's very simple. In order to maintain principles, we need to hold on to taboos. The idea that humans are ultimately rational in their analysis is folly. We need red lines wherever we go.
We don't say anything close to mocking God unless in a very philosophical/studious context.
Your accusation of the Belzer Rav is appalling in its ignorance.
The British controlled immigration to Palestine, and the WZO got their hands on those papers. Yes, one was given to the Belzer Rav. But how does he owe them any thanks for that? They snatched control over the immigration papers, and then released some of them. Does a thief deserve thanks for returning a tiny percentage of the money he stole?
Reading about the activities of the Zionists during the Holocaust, even from Zionist sources, such as Z. Warhaftig, tells you a lot about their mindset and their activities to 'save' people. The amount of attempts they disturbed, as well as the little they did when they could have done so much more, should tell us a little about the gratitude anybody owes them.
And its not true that he told people to stay. That is a distortion of his words. His brother said in his name that he thinks Hungary will be saved and he was leaving because he wished to travel to EY. He didn't tell anyone to stay behind.
" That is a distortion of his words."
Here are his words:
" he is not fleeing… he only desires to move to the Holy Land… and the pious rebbe foresees that residents of this city will live in peace and serenity…Only good and kindness will pursue and reach our Jewish brethren in this country… "
" the Tzaddik sees that there will prevail here, for the residents of this country [Hungary], rest and tranquility"
" He didn't tell anyone to stay behind."
Well, he assured those stayed behind. Not much of a difference. Nevertheless, a distinction can be made. We must face facts. There was not going to be a mass exodus. Neither more efforts of the Zionists, general or revisionists, nor the brave & audacious, but unrealistic schemes, of R' Weissmandl's group were going to change that. So an argument can be made for reassuring those doomed to be left behind. Indeed, while escape on scale was not possible, there was the option of hiding. A little hope and less fatalism may have assisted those who survived via the latter.
So while you can claim that there's a lack of nuance and context, you shouldn't make accusations of distortion.
You've also omitted the fact that when the rebbe's drasha was printer after the war, those words of assurance to the doomed were censored out. Was that a distortion?
"...nor the brave & audacious, but unrealistic schemes, of R' Weissmandl's group were going to change that. So an argument can be made for reassuring those doomed to be left behind."
Your intentionally vague words, stated straightforwardly are: let's ignore the Jews who probably will be killed anyway and not try as hard as we can to save at least some of them since we can't possibly get them all anyhow.
You are a sick individual.
Before calling him a sick individual, make sure you understood.
Agreed....I shouldn't have made personal remarks...I hope he forgives me...I bet he is a very good yid...just his opinions are very very wrong.
If I understood him, he is really agreeing with you; he is only attempting to understand what the rationale of the other side is. It isn't even his own opinion. He said clearly that the statement was tantamount to telling people not to escape with him.
I'll read it again, maybe I'm the one who misunderstood.
One thing he is adamant about is justifying the zionists zeal to ignore and actively derail attempts made to rescue tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of Jews from the holocaust via "trucks for goods" deals with Eichmann... those hundreds of thousands of Jews perished...their blood is on the heads of those zionist founders yimach shimam...there is no way of getting around these facts of history.
"Your intentionally vague words"
You misunderstood. I wasn't offering my personal opinion. I was reacting to Sender's claims that the rebbe " didn't tell anyone to stay behind." I wrote "he assured those stayed behind" and offered a distinction between "telling" and "assuring". All I did was to suggest a charitable reading of the rebbe's address. Nevertheless, the address remains problematic, as is demonstrated by the censoring of it when it was first published.
" stated straightforwardly are"
If my words are vague, why are you imposing a "straightforward" interpretation that I never wrote? Let the vagueness remain! In any case, your "straightforward" reading is wrong, and I completely deny ever have meant what you divined from my words.
The distortion is quite clear. Read the article without those words, and the sting is gone.
Why was the censorship relevant to my post?
Let me tell You something about those “rabbis” who abandoned their flocks….my father was in the camp with the Satmar rebbi. You want to guess what happened when people woke up in the morning and realized he had left them behind? Sure those who met him in Switzerland rejoiced, but…for better or worse a rabbi’s place is with his followers and NOT to escape leaving them to die agonizing deaths. Did you ever speak to survivors that were abandoned by the Satmar rebbe and the belzer rebbe? Do you have any idea what depth of despair they were thrown into by thier leaders saving their own skins??? Many rabbis who could have fled STAYED. They are the heroes to be emulated. Not those cowards that ran to save their own skins. For SHAME on those who escaped leaving their flocks behind. FOR SHAME!!!
Nice to see people with such a cavalier attitude to other people's lives. The Satmar and Belzer Rebbes should have died, because that's what they want.
How nice!
It was the equivalent of a parent abandoning their child. It was wrong and inexcusable.
As usual you miss the point. Even spider man gets it. With great power comes great responsibility. Those rabbis basically ran their followers lives without them they had no guidance. What they did was wrong morally socially and Al pi Halacha. Captain Smith of the titanic acted braver than them.
Are you suggesting that the Belzer and Satmarer Rebbes risk their lives on the say so of Spider man?
Your hyperbole suggests you don't have any actual complaints.
I, for one, are happy with everyone who was rescued. Little long-term benefit would have been had by anyone if they had stayed behind, and we have gained much from the presence of the pre-war leaders in our post-war world.
As usual you don’t understand. Go talk to survivors that were there. Maybe you’ll learn how idiotic you sound.
I get it.
Without insults, you don't really have anything to say.
Have a happy, healthy, safe, sweet, new year.
The captain is the last to leave his sinking ship.
Reb Elchonon Wasserman hy"d even WENT BACK from his safety in the USA to join his community.
But I can't judge anyone here because I didn't reach their place; I didn't face this test.
It's very unclear if "The captain is the last to leave his sinking ship." is a Jewish value. Although as per our other discussion, לשיטתך, so much of the Torah is taken from non-Jewish sources anyways, so why not this? 😄. In any case, in those cases it was a matter of the captain having other ships that needed saving, which we see they were BH very successful with. Our secularist friend above is just mad that the Belzer Rebbe didn't die so that there would be fewer hassidim to bother him.
Ok, I'm not on board with that.
What the hell? How DARE you blame someone for escaping certain death! You are completely out of your mind, full stop. What about people that grabbed a chance to escape which meant they lost their familes. They should also die?
You have a problem that they "ran to save their own skins" from being gased and cremated? You are a very very sick person.
The issue at hand is whether a leader reassured his ardent followers who lived by his word that all will be fine. No one really expects anyone not to try and save their own skin (חייך קודמים).
I don't think he is very serious.
The Satmarer Rebbe was never in a camp, so his imaginary father was not in this imaginary camp with him. Unless he meant Bergen-Belsen, in which case he was in a separate part of the camp, and was from the second group to be freed, leaving nobody behind.
The idea that the forsight of going to Israel during WW2 was smarter than staying behind is a common myth, yet plain stupid to anyone who read up on how close the nazis were to capturing Israel. Hindsight is 20-20.
"Does a thief deserve thanks for returning a tiny percentage of the money he stole?"
Dodgy yeshivish moshol warning.
Test is on the 'dodgy moshol' prowl. Beware, beware.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rashis-giants/comment/20998027?utm_source=activity_item
It's also pretty stupid to be against meshalim because when two sides argue this is like one is the best tactics to allow an opponent to see your point from a familiar angle. The dodgy mashal thing test brings up disallows the flow of good conversation. If I didn't know better I may have thought that he doesn't wanna get anywhere!
You never (yes, I know, never say never) find mosholim in the works of the gedolei acharonim and roshei yeshivos. I have never heard mosholim in the shiurim from the gedolei roshei yeshivos that I have heard.
Why do you think that is? A well explained sevoroh, a beautiful chiluk, a 'fester chakirah' stands on its own and does need a moshol.
Use of moshol means the discussion between chavrusohs is diverted on the moshol, its applicability, trying to establish that it is not a good moshol, etc etc. Rather then the 'etzem nekudah', as we say in yeshivish.
https://www.sefaria.org/Guide_for_the_Perplexed%2C_Part_3.51.2-3?lang=he
ואני פותח הדברים בזה הפרק במשל שאשאהו לך. ואומר: כי המלך הוא בהיכלו ואנשיו כולם – קצתם אנשי המדינה וקצתם חוץ למדינה, ואלו אשר במדינה – מהם מי שאחוריו אל בית המלך ומגמת פניו בדרך אחרת, ומהם מי שרוצה ללכת אל בית המלך ומגמתו אליו, ומבקש לבקר בהיכלו ולעמוד לפניו, אלא שעד היום לא ראה פני חומת הבית כלל; ומן הרוצים לבוא אל הבית – מהם שהגיע אליו והוא מתהלך סביבו מבקש למצוא השער, ומהם מי שנכנס בשער והוא הולך בפרוזדור, ומהם מי שהגיע עד שנכנס אל תוך הבית והוא עם המלך במקום אחד שהוא בית המלך; ולא בהגיעו אל תוך הבית יראה המלך או ידבר עמו, אבל אחר הגיעו אל תוך הבית אי אפשר לו מבלתי שישתדל השתדלות אחרת, ואז יעמוד לפני המלך ויראהו מרחוק או מקרוב, או ישמע דבר המלך או ידבר עמו.
והנני מפרש לך זה המשל אשר חדשתי לך, ואומר:
I guess the Rambam was one of those dodgy yeshivish types. As was the Ramchal. Heck, there are explicit meshalim in tanach. Dovid Hamelech could have used you to help him call out Nasan hanavi's dodgy mashal with the poor man and his sheep.
https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%90
והוא מה שלמדונו זכרונם לברכה במדרש קהלת, זו לשונם (קהלת רבה ו ו): "וגם הנפש לא תמלא, משל למה הדבר דומה, לעירוני שנשא בת מלך, אם יביא לה כל מה שבעולם, אינם חשובים לה כלום, שהיא בת מלך כך הנפש, אילו הבאת לה כל מעדני עולם, אינם כלום לה, למה שהיא מן העליונים".
https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%92
והוא מה שאמרו ז"ל (בבא בתרא עח, ב): על כן יאמרו המושלים בואו חשבון – על כן יאמרו המושלים ביצרם, בואו ונחשב חשבונו של עולם, הפסד מצוה כנגד שכרה ושכר עברה כנגד הפסדה וכו'. וזה, כי העצה האמיתית הזאת, לא יוכלו לתת אותה ולא לראות אמיתה אלא אותם שכבר יצאו מתחת יד יצרם ומשלו בו. כי מי שהוא עדין חבוש במאסר יצרו, אין עיניו רואות האמת הזאת ואינו יכול להכירה, כי היצר מסמא את עיניו ממש, והנה הוא כהולך בחושך שיש לפניו מכשולות ואין עיניו רואות אותם. והוא מה שאמרו ז"ל (בבא מציעא פג, ב): תשת חושך ויהי לילה (תהלים קד, כ), זה העולם הזה, שדומה ללילה.
והבן כמה נפלא המאמר האמיתי הזה למי שמעמיק להבין בו. כי הנה חושך הלילה שני מיני טעיות אפשר לו שיגרום לעין האדם: או יכסה את העין עד שלא יראה מה שלפניו כלל, או שיטעה אותו עד שיראה עמוד כאילו הוא אדם, ואדם כאילו הוא עמוד כן חומריות וגשמיות העולם הזה, הנה הוא חושך הלילה לעין השכל, וגורם לו שתי טעויות: האחת אינו מניח לו שיראה המכשולות שבדרכי העולם, ונמצאים הפתאים הולכים לבטח ונופלים ואובדים מבלי שהגיעם פחד תחלה. והוא מה שאמר הכתוב (משלי ד, יט): דרך רשעים כאפלה לא ידעו במה יכשלו, ואומר (משלי כב, ג): ערום ראה רעה ונסתר ופתיים עברו ונענשו, ואומר (משלי יד, טז): וכסיל מתעבר ובוטח, כי לבם בריא להם כאולם, ונופלים טרם ידעו מהמכשול כלל. והטעות השניה והיא קשה מן הראשונה היא שמטעה ראייתם עד שרואים הרע כאלו הוא ממש טוב, והטוב כאילו הוא רע, ומתוך כך מתחזקים ומחזיקים מעשיהם הרעים. כי אין די שחסרה מהם ראיית האמת לראות הרעה אשר נגד פניהם, אלא שנראה להם למצוא ראיות גדולות ונסיונות מוכיחים לסברותיהם הרעות ולדעותיהם הכוזבות, וזאת היא הרעה הגדולה המלפפתם ומביאתם אל באר שחת. והוא מה שאמר הכתוב (ישעיה ו, י): השמן לב העם הזה ואזניו הכבד ועיניו השע פן וגו', וכל זה מפני היותם תחת החושך וכבושים המה תחת ממשלת יצרם. אך אותם שכבר יצאו מן המאסר הזה, הם רואים האמת לאמיתו ויכולים ליעץ שאר בני אדם עליו.
הא למה זה דומה? לגן המבוכה, הוא הגן הנטוע לצחוק, הידוע אצל השרים, שהנטיעות עשויות כתלים כתלים, וביניהם שבילים רבים נבוכים ומעורבים, כולם דומים זה לזה, והתכלית בם הוא להגיע אל אכסדרה אחת שבאמצעם. ואמנם השבילים האלה מהם ישרים ומגיעים באמת אל האכסדרה, ומהם משגים את האדם ומרחיקים אותו ממנה. ואמנם ההולך בין השבילים הוא לא יוכל לראות ולדעת כלל אם הוא בשביל האמיתי או בכוזב, כי כולם שוים ואין הפרש ביניהם לעין הרואה אותם, אם לא שידע הדרך בבקיאות וטביעות עין שכבר נכנס בם והגיע אל התכלית שהוא האכסדרה. והנה העומד כבר על האכסדרה הוא רואה כל הדרכים לפניו ומבחין בין האמתיים והכוזבים, והוא יוכל להזהיר את ההולכים בם, לומר: זה הדרך לכו בו! והנה, מי שירצה להאמין לו, יגיע למקום המיועד. ומי שלא ירצה להאמין וירצה ללכת אחר עיניו, ודאי שישאר אובד ולא יגיע אליו.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A7%D7%A3
אָדָם יְסוֹדוֹ מֵעָפָר,
וְסוֹפוֹ לֶעָפָר
בְּנַפְשׁוֹ יָבִיא לַחְמוֹ
מָשׁוּל כְּחֶרֶס הַנִּשְׁבָּר
כְּחָצִיר יָבֵשׁ וּכְצִיץ נוֹבֵל
כְּצֵל עוֹבֵר וּכְעָנָן כָּלָה
וּכְרוּחַ נוֹשָׁבֶת וּכְאָבָק פּוֹרֵחַ
וְכַחֲלום יָעוּף.
Classic yeshivish. Quoting sources when I can just shoot my mouth off about cholent and sheitels.
Yes. And numerous pirushim have been written explaining those mosholim in midrash, often because they are unclear or problematic!
if you really need examples on a higher level, this whole world is just a moshol that God Almighty gives to explain Himself. but then again, He is pretty yeshivish...
good luck with that immature take.
have you never listened to someone explaining a really hard concept with the use of a moshol??? it's super helpful dude. i'm not sure what your beef is. you really can't follow what people ar trying to bring out of a moshol?
richard dawkins is very not yeshivish, ike very, very not yeshivish. but when explaining concepts to religious people, like trying to open up their world view.... he uses the power of moshol. like dozens of times. it's very powerful!
It's not super helpful in lomdus. Richard Dawkins does not attempt to explain lomdus with a moshol.
"A really hard concept" is somewhat vague. But I stand by what I said. Gedolei roshei yeshivos do not use mosholim to explain themselves.
As it happens, it's neither yeshivish, nor dodgy, nor even really a moshol. It's a pretty straightforward point.
But glad you're on the case, Sherlock. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-good-example-of-the-academic-style/comment/20991266
You are right. This moshol is missing critical details: The thief stole out of a (perceived, at the very least) need to save lives. Lives were saved. He deserves recognition.
I don't believe in the Uman pilgrimage, but those that went did not endanger their lives.
It was a חשש רחוק that anything would happen, and we are not obligated to worry about a חשש רחוק. Anyone who learned הלכות פקוח נפש can tell you this.
And that is what ended up happening. They were safe and sound, except the one person who sadly collapsed during davening.
Russia would have to be crazy to bomb a gathering of foreign citizens in Ukraine, for no military benefit.
"It was a חשש רחוק that anything would happen"
"The Department of State continues to advise that U.S. citizens do not travel to Ukraine due to the active armed conflict."
Canadian Gov't: Avoid all travel to Ukraine due to the Russian military invasion.
UK: "continues to advise British nationals against all travel to Ukraine. This is because the risks are too high."
Germany: "The German government advises againt travelling this country. Danger level: 5 - Do not travel."
France: the government of France updated its travel guidance for French nationals in Ukraine. French nationals are advised to postpone all trips to Ukraine, including trips for essential purposes.
Sweden: has decided to advise against all travel to Ukraine due to changes in the security situation.
"Russia would have to be crazy"
After vouching for safety of travel in ignorance of all professional advice, you now claim expertise in the sanity of nations during war? Two strikes!
Not one country differentiated between areas in Ukraine, because it is not their business to do so.
But those who only wished to travel to one area, did the research and they were later found to be right.
Are you arguing with the facts?
Do you say the same thing when the US State Department issued a travel warning about israel?
What are you talking about? Did the USSD issue the same warning as it did in regards to Ukraine?
Please be more specific. A vague question can imply anything.
The State Department issued travel warnings against Israel all the time. Here is one example there are many many more. https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/state-department-to-caution-u-s-officials-against-travel-to-israel/
You're usually more careful than this. Read it again and compare the two warnings. The warning against traveling to Ukraine is most severe than the warning against travel to Israel.
And yes, I would avoid certain places when there are reasons to believe that rocket fire is a possibility. I've trained my family what to do in case of a siren. And I try to remain aware of locations of nearby shelters in the case of an attack. There are not enough shelters for the 50,000 Uman revelers.
That was a simple example that I found. The US State Department has in the past issued some very strict travel warning to israel. If you really look you can find them.
There is no such thing as 'Russia'. It's not a well organised disciplined army, is it? 'Russia' would be crazy, but there are plenty of nutcases in the army there that may have done something.
Nutcases could do anything anywhere at anytime. What makes this different is the war. But if the war itself poses no risk, is there reason to be more worried?
חשש רחוק is not the correct terminology when considering the halachik attitude to risk. The criteria whether the risk is 'dosh bo rabbim'. And I don't think travelling to Ukraine is 'dosh bo rabbim', unlike other risks we take every day, like driving.
Curious question, if the chances of risk are low enough, do you need dosh bo rabbim?
You have it the wrong way round.
"Chances of risk" (whatever that actually means) is not used in halochoh. It is terms like 'dosh bo rabbim' that are used to define levels of risk in halochoh.
For example all evidence may show you that diet soda (or any soda for that matter) is incredibly unhealthy for health containing all sorts of nasty chemicals. So why is it muttar? Becuase 'dosh bo rabbim'.
All evidence may show you that travel to the space station is incredibly safe. But it is not 'dosh bo rabbim', so you would still need to ask a competent rov before taking the trip.
Rav Cherlow in his post quoted the Chazon Ish (Emunah u-Bitachon) that G-d does what is best that does not mean he does what we want. Jewish history before Zionism demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jews
Jewish history after Zionism also demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jews.
More people have been killed in Israel since the establishment of the State, as a percentage of their Jewish population, than any other country in the world. Hardly a bastion of safety.
Bibi also said something stupid here, there is plenty to go around.
He also didnt protect in the times of Noach. But there was good reason, and that is the key point.
Last I checked millions of zionists also ignore G-ds Torah.
Hashem warns about punishment. Although we pray for His mercy, He is right for punishing.
Are you implying that the Holocaust was punishment against the Zionists? Then according to Rav Shach, you're a heretic.
I'm repeating what the Tanach warns about ad nauseam. There will be punishment if the nation abandons the faith.
The European Jews rebelled against G-d in a massive way in the years leading up to the holocaust. There were many secular types, socialists, nationalists, zionists, yiddishists, atheists, you name it. The common theme was dumping their religion.
You weren't clear. You first mentioned "zionists" and now you mentioned " many secular types, socialists, nationalists, zionists, yiddishists, atheists".
By including more generations of sinners, you may well have evaded the heresy charge, as held by Rav Shach. Congratulations!
Of course, the Lubavitcher Rebbe held otherwise. And the Satmar Rebbe held otherwise.
I am saying something very straightforward regardless of how you try to butcher it.
Namely, the European Jews fiercely rebelled against their religion. Thats a historical fact.
Then came what may have been the worst Jewish destruction in its history.
The obvious conclusion is that Hashem punished, as He repeats over and over again in the Torah He will do, if the nation rebels.
Re the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he seems to have contradicted himself on that. He came out against R Schach at the time, but it was found in his earlier writings that it was for a particular sin.
You are being intentionally obtuse.
Rav Shach did not consider it heresy, and the LR's arguments hold no water when an objective person reads them.
But the SR writes quite clearly that באופן גשמי, he blames the Zionists for much of the Holocaust.
Rav Yaacov Emden wrote that the reason we're in Galut and suffer years of prosecution and murder is because we stayed in Galut instead of settling in EY.
If in fact wrote that, it was at a time when the masses of Jews kept the Torah and mitzvos.
You think R. Emden believed that if millions of Jews who threw away the Torah settled in Israel and kept just one mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel out of 613 mitzvahs ....but they ignored the rest...that would be enough to bring Moshaich? That is laughable.
Hopefully enough good Jews that keep all the mitzvos are living in Israel today to hasten the redemption but your interpretation of what he may have said is faulty.
"You think R. Emden believed ..."
I'm not sure how Yekutiel's comment led you to such conclusions.
"but your interpretation"
He didn't interpret anything. (Though it would be nice to see the quote properly cited.)
That is hardly the final word on the topic.
If choosing one מראה מקום was sufficient, we wouldn't have a Torah.
So you have an appointment with G-D
Who will tell you why Jews are suffering today and what to do.
You're sure he won’t tell you to enlist in Tzhal immediately! We know what G-D wants! Just count up the Marei Mkomots.
As your comment is only a single opinion it is hereby rejected out of hand
So don’t come here….we don’t need nor want you….
Do you have facts with which you disagree? Or do you not care that people are in danger?
I don’t disagree with my own facts. The fact is you are extremely unpleasant, and you have the views of the meraglim, look what happened to them….
Are you of the opinion that Israel is a safe haven for Jews? Against all evidence? Do you not care about those that have been killed?
And you're calling me unpleasant was uncalled for.
The Meraglim had a promise that they would conquer Eretz Yisroel and win the war. We do not have such a promise. The difference could not be more stark?
None died in these battles!?
Yisuv Haaretz demands sacrifice even at a threat of death.But you
do’nt believe in the Mitvvah!
Interesting how it's always the secularists who are the quickest to talk about how much they hate and loathe other people. And this one all but threatening violence. I almost never see chareidim engaging in such rhetoric. It's *always* the secularists. Curious, isn't it?
You are highly unpleasant and objectionable and if this conversation was in person you might have suffered the consequences from any number of people here who loathe you and your comments. You are basically apologizing for anti israel propaganda
"Jewish history after Zionism also demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jew"
According to HaModia, the official voices of Daas Torah, and Eicher & Shas, you are a heretic for you deny that "“God has always protected the people of Israel.”
Yes a remnant would remain as per the Brit with the Avot.
Intersting. After 6 million died in the holocaust you bring up the numbers of the remaining jews in the world and compare the percentage in Israel. Seriously.
Almost every country in europe had their jewish population wiped out. So you are comparing the percentage of jews in in israel to what the united states? Thats a very flawed argument.
No, I compared the casualties of Jews in the US, England, Australia, France, Mexico, Switzerland, Russia, and more countries to Israel. Israel is not a safe haven for Klal Yisroel yet.
If it had existed during WWII, I find it unlikely it would have helped much. Especially after so few secular Zionist leaders actually cared enough to help when they didn't have a state. Whenever they brought up the rescue of trapped Jews to representatives of countries around the world, they met sympathy. When they mentioned Palestine as the solution, they lost that sympathy. Yet they continued to do so.
"so few secular Zionist leaders actually cared enough to help when they didn't have a state. "
What are you talking about?
When the Zionist leaders did not have a state to protect, they still ignored many of the pleas for help from the trapped Jews.
Many of Rabbi Weissmandl's plans were quite sane and logical, but the zionist ideology was opposed to appeasement. The zionists blocked those plans too, not just the fanciful ones.
If they had a state to protect, they would certainly not care about anything but that state, ignoring Jewish lives along the way. על פי דרך הטבע, a state in Israel would not have protected anyone during the Holocaust.
"were quite sane and logical"
Wrong criteria. Desperate times call for desperate measures. His scheme was predicated on the possibility of illegally transferring massive funds to the enemy in wartime, and that the Nazis would be honorable and keep their part of the bargain. It also assumed that the Nazi offer was a serious one, and not a plan to sow division among the allies.
" the zionist ideology was opposed to appeasement. "
What zionist ideology? What appeasement?
When I was a kid, my rebbe told a story about a Jew who, when his son was drafted in WW1, went to some renowned rabbi to pray for God's protection. The great rabbi said we cannot ask God to do something we want. Rather, I can only ask that God's will shall be done. "Well then," I blurted out, "then, please do NOT pray for my son! If God's will is that my son die, why on earth would I ask God's will to be done? Don't do me no favors!"
That Rebbi needs a lesson on Tefilla.
I actually heard an interesting idea, that tefilla is before we know what Hashems will is so we ask for ours, and when we find out what Hashems will is that's where bitachon comes in, to accept Gods will.
If we know what the end endpoint will be, i.e., that God will exert his will (as he always does), then we already know our prayer is useless. Let's cut to the chase, hang out until God delivers his verdict, then accept it at that time without disappointment. When friends offer condolences that little Sidney fell at the battle of Khe Sanh, we can reply with bitachon: "It is what it is. I am just pleased as punch that God's will was done."
Why do you ask a question that's addressed in Machshava 101?
Don, if u r addressing me, I ask because I never got a decent answer, not in Machshava 101, and not in Machshava 10,001. If u have a simple answer, please fly it by me.
The simplest answer is that G-d's will may very well be conditional. What He wills without prayer may be different than what He wills with it.
Leib, since only u seem to KNOW what tfilla REALLY is, why don't u straighten out all the unenlightened Haredim?
As the descendant of those who suffered horribly at the hands of Ukrainians, I cannot bring myself to journey there to spend my money. That's just me. That Russia invaded Ukraine against all international legal norms cannot induce me to exert any effort in Ukraine's defense. Sorry, not sorry.
I have no idea what this sentiment has to do with the thrust of this article - which relates to the clear wilful ignorance of so-called torah scholars on matters so plainly laid out in Torah. However, while I am not motivated to visit Ukraine, and most assuredly not Uman, these are different times. There are Jews who serve in the UKR forces and they have their own Rabbis and mobile Synagogues - the same cannot be said for the Russians - who have willingly bombed Jewish targets (Synagogues) and who TODAY appallingly seek to murder and enslave completely innocent people. If you equate today's Ukrainians with the erstwhile murderous Ukrainians, you are not applying tacheles - same as those Jews who fall for the idea that the current Russians are somehow the Soviets of yore.
Not to mention that Ukrainians elected a Jew as President by a blowout margin in a free and fair election. The Ukraine of today is clearly not the Ukraine of the past.
The people of Nineveh did tshuvah. Apparently at least a large majority of Ukrainians have as well.
Wow. They did teshuva! That was easy. They butchered Jews but now their better. What a joke.
The "they" were two generations ago. Few are still alive today.
They have a national responsibility for their horrific murders. Maybe lets not hate Amalek since it was long ago.
Sorry, we don't exonerate nations for henious crimes for stupid reasons like they elected a secular Jew or whatever other silly reasons. Ukraine would need to do a heck of a lot more to be exonerated for their national crimes. Yimach shimam
And what would you suggest as an atonement?
"The Ukraine of today is clearly not the Ukraine of the past. "
It should also be noted that the Ukrainian were not consistently the inhumane butchers they were at certain specific periods in history.
Nor were the Germans! Nor were many countries. The Egyptians and the Babylonians tortured and killed Jews only "at certain specific periods in history". That is the lamest defense imaginable for countries that butchered Jews.
If u cannot "forgive" Germany and Egypt for their periods of anti-Semitism, let's not forget Spain, England, Brazil, and the US.
It's not just you - and none of my family came from Ukraine.
I hold with those who suggest we judge the Ukraine of today as it is, not as it was. Should we condemn the bnai Korach because of their father's sins?
As I just posted earlier:
א"ל והכתיב לא יהיה שריד לבית עשו בעושה מעשה עשו
The children of עשו are only considered בית עשו if they continue to practice his evil acts.
Lol, this post is hilarious. How many horrible things have you accused Bibi of, how many countless times have you insulted him and called him names? Yet you're compelled to defend him here, bc the other side is Charedi - a type of Jew you hate even more than Bibi. What was it your ex-countryman said? "Misery acqaunts a man with strange bedfellows."
Other than that, you agree with the post that these Charedi representatives said stupid, perhaps heretical things?
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
Re the post itself, it is mind-numbingly stupid and petty. Truly, is NS really that desperate to find something - anything! - he thinks useful to attack a Charedi Jew?
I notice there was no actual link to anything Aryeh Erlich actually said, only to a third-hand secularist media website, and that is one of the usual clues that we are getting some sort of distorted NS misrepresentation. Still another clue is the characterizations, eg, "Shas ANGRILY responded", rather than a straight quote. If one is to attack a man and write about it, one should quote his exact words and (on this site, if it involves Hebrew) language. I think we all know by now you can't accept things you read here unless you verify.
So far as I can tell about this tempest in a teapot, the shas guy said Bibi's statement - not Bibi himself - but his statement, that God didnt watch our for us in the Holocaust, constitutes apikorsus. Arguably that goes too far, but arguably its accurate. I dont know, and dont think its anything to get worked up, either from the shas side, the bibi side, or the observer side. Jews have been arguing for thousands of years over what exactly constitutes apikorsis. Is this really something anyone cares about? בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לן?
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
You've got it upside down. The statement was stupid because God decided to withhold His protection from the Holocaust. The statement was stupid because it falsely accused Bibi of making a heretical statement. Other than the character assassination, HaModia, Eichler and Shas may well be nominated for best tantrum in a dramatic performance. You're making the secondary character the main stars of their performance.
"Jews have been arguing for thousands of years over what exactly constitutes apikorsis. Is this really something anyone cares about?"
So you actually agree that HaModia, Eichler and Shas were wrong?
Tantrum? Character assassination? Dont drink the koolaid. To argue over what is and what isnt apikorsis is pointless. It remains amusing, however, that NS is happy to go to bat for a man he's frequently called a liar and a criminal, if he thinks it useful to attack a class of Jews he's called even worse.
A SEFARIA search yielded a long list of infidel rabbis who claim and also rule that where there is danger, one does not trust the miracle even in performing a mitzvah. The question: Do all these books belong in the trash immediately, or because they also contain holy memorials, do I have to cut all the memorials before I throw them in the trash? This is the list: פענח רזא, מאירי, הריב"ש, עקידת יצחק, מזרחי, הזוהר, מדרש רבה, המהר"ל מפראג, השל"ה, הרוקח, קרבן העדה ופני משה על ירושלמי, אור החיים, היעב"ץ, החתם סופר, בועז על המשנה, רש"ר הירש, ערוך השולחן, בן איש חי,
You have wrong pshat in all of them! I won't even explain them since you just won't understand anyway! See איגרת על הביטחון from R. Y.B. Bloch that no one with bitachon was ever let down in history, and when Chazal say אל יעמיד אדם עצמו במקום סכנה ולא יסמוך על נס that is only when he doesn't have proper bitachon, as it says only not to rely on a miracle but one may rely on bitachon.
(Now just for all here who don't have a sense of humor, yes I am not serious, just parating a radical response.)
It's Y.Z. Bloch
Yes, I stand corrected.
I hear people just calling him Joe blo so I wrote the B by mistake.
"...he was merely pointing out that God does not always protect Jews, for whatever reason, and that Europe is a good example of that."
"For whatever reason" The problem exactly! He said G-d didn't always protect but like a good rasha Netanyahu refused to finish the sentence and suggest WHY it may have happened based on open verses in Torah, (which he likes to do) and historical facts. Instead he made it seem like there is no good reason. Netanyahu is a lowlife for wording it that way.
Throughout Torah and Nach it is constantly repeated that Hashem will punish if He is thrown away.
Leading up to the holocaust, the European Jews rebelled mightily against G-d's Torah. Hashem didn't protect because like He warned, He wouldn't protect if His nation rebels. Don't hide the truth with a childish "for whatever reason".
He is right about not placing onesself in danger and relying on Hashem. But the implication of his words were something else, namely that G-d doesn't protect for good reason, which is a flat out lie.
Naturally, while secular Netanyahu can point to the Torah about guarding one's health and such, he can not discuss the much more common theme of punishment. After all, he is a shabbos profaner himself. Netanyahu knows he ignores the Torah. So he yells about the few things he likes and ignores the rest.
What a liar. What a rasha. Whoever called him out is a hero.
" like a good rasha Netanyahu refused to finish the sentence and suggest WHY..."
We all read the attacks against Bibi. No one complained that he should have completed the sentence with your suggest emendations. You're making up stuff that doesn't appear in HaModia official voice of Daas Torah. And you have sought to replace the words of the representatives of Daas Torah, Eichler & Shas with your own ideas.
On the other hand, given the history of the country, it's kind of nice to heard the PM mention G-d once in a while.
Good Jews speaking out against Netanyahu the rasha are saying the same thing. He claims G-d didn't protect the Jews. Actually Hashem does all the time. But what about the Holocaust which was what the Prime Minister was refering to?
Answer: that was punishment for violently rebelling against Judiasm, as plainly repeated in Tanach countless times.
Try hard as you can to fight that truth, it won't go away.
Oh, and the zionists leadership worked hard to stop the truck deals with Eichmann in exhange for Hungarian Jews. It's historical fact.
" It's historical fact."
Was there really a deal? Or was it a fraud? Did Eichmann genuinely plan to let a million Jews go free? Or was he lying?
Where were the 10,000 trucks were going to come from?
How were they to be transported from neutral/allied territory into Nazi hands?
What guarantee did the Nazis provide that they wouldn't just take the trucks and kill the Jews anyway?
You talk about stopping the deal. That implies that it was a real deal and not a ploy, and it could have been implemented.
Ahhhhh. So since the deal with Eichmann to save thousands of our brother's lives might not go through so we should not try our very best.
We should even actively derail any potentiality of it working.
You have real issues.
" try our very best."
Try the best to do what?
To get the 10,000 trucks? From where?
To deliver them from neutral/allied territory into Nazi hands? How?
You haven't answered these questions. You say "try" but have not offered what "trying" would have entailed.
Did you zionists know what Eichman's plans were? No. So why did they prevent the deal from going through? Why were you so uncaring about their brethren's lives?
Nobody knows what would have happened, but we do know what people actually did, and the zionists failed the test of the time appallingly.
Again, Slifkin makes a red herring. I agree that Netanyahu should NOT have been criticized for choosing the wrong words to express Chazal (pesachim 64b), not to rely on miracles, But Eichler and others understood (or misunderstood) him to express words that indicate G-d doesn't protect the Jewish people. As for Zionists during WWII. Many of the leftwing atheists Zionists, the Ben Gurion type, helped the Nazis to exterminate the type of Jews that they saw as "undesirable". They also hated and wanted to keep Edos Hamizrach out, until they realized the Arabs had no intentions of peace and they needed every Jew they could get (both to put on the war front, and to become janitors and blue-collar workers). Most Zionists of the Begin type believed in saving all Jews, but there were some from the socialist type that also were traditional and were appalled at the atheist type Zionists attitude toward fellow Jews.
"Again, Slifkin makes a red herring."
So his critique of the response against Bibi was off base?
"I agree that Netanyahu should NOT have been criticized"
So you agree with R' Slifkin?
" the Ben Gurion type, helped the Nazis to exterminate the type of Jews that they saw as "undesirable"."
Nonsense. Ben Gurion was not even in the same continent where the extermination took place. The rest of what you wrote doesn't justify this sentence.
You are a joke. Not being on the same continent has zero to do with anything.
He and the zionist establishment worked very hard to stop the "Blood for Goods" deal by Eichmann. They tricked Joel Brand who was offered the deal by Eichmann so that he landed in jail to stop the deal.
They have the blood of thousands of Hungarian Jews on their heads. You can't change the facts!
Some audacious claims there!
Where were the 10,000 trucks were going to come from?
How were they to be transported from neutral/allied territory into Nazi hands?
What guarantee did the Nazis provide that they wouldn't just take the trucks and kill the Jews anyway? (Or were the Nazis more honest brokers than the PLO?)
Was the Nazi offer genuine or an attempt to split the allies?
Scary to read such vile Jew hate from a Jew. Let me get your wretched argument straight.
You argue that ben gurion (who we have on video saying not to hunt down Nazis) and his henchmen were right to get Joel Brand locked up to prevent any potential deal with Eichmann to save thousands of Hungarian Jewish lives because there was no guarantee it would work out....so the very best thing is not even to merely sit back and not try your very hardest to at least save some Jews, but even to actively break any deal that might actually go through.
You need help.
So without a guarantee, they shouldn't have done anything?
And besides, some of the trucks were already in Slovakia, you need to read more before commenting.
"some of the trucks were already in Slovakia,"
So what?
So What?
It means the deal was in process. The zionists derailed what could have saved thousands and thousands of Jews from the gas chambers.. Face the facts. There is a mountain of evidence out there,
Do you believe in Hell, yes or no? Who goes there? Do Nazis go there? If there is a system of reward and punishment, which is a basic tenet of Judaism, did Hitler, maybe the worst man in history, escape punishment by killing himself, or is he presently in hell?
If hitler is in hell, what about nazi collaborators? If it can be demonstrated that the zionist enterprise eagerly derailed attempts to save Jews from the gas chambers...would you agree that they are presently in hell?
Or will you continue your blind mindless commitment to whatever you decided must be truth even if the opposite stares straight back in your face? Let me get a coherent, well written response. I know, there isn't any.
So they could have given them as a down payment, buying desperately needed time.
All the Haredim are heretics. So wha else is new?
If that is the case, Avi, why don't u tour all the major yeshivas and set these gdolim straight? Surely, they would be grateful for u to clear up their misguided theology.
It wouldn't work. The Haredim are כופרים בעיקר. The central heresy of the Haredim is worship of more than one god. The "gdolim" are smart enough to realize that they are being worshiped along with the Real God. When I am דן לכף זכות I conjecture that it wouldn't do them any good to deny their divinity. The masses would keep on worshiping them anyway. When I am דן לחובה I conjecture that they enjoy the worship too much. The first conjecture is more likely: the first generation of חסידים deified the first אדמו"רים and it stuck and spread.
So did you get the doctor closer to Judaism or further?
There's a strange new theology publicized in Shabbos pamphlets that you can bend Hashem to your will by merely acknowledging that everything is in his hands. True, the Rambam talks about it and Rav Chaim Soloveichik acted on it, but they're talking about finding lost keys or getting a car to start up.
Where is such a Rambam. I've been looking for the source of the idea the Chazon Ish calls a טעות מפורסם.
I also don't know what Rav Chaim you're referring to, do you mean Rav Chaim Valozhiner about אין עוד מלבדו? That was relied on once by the Brisker Rav when running from the Nazis, doing all in his ability to be safe, and when stuck, concentrated on that. There's an Ohr Hachaim that a "segula" to have Hashem go beyond nature for you is by focusing on his power to do anything. I am not aware of more.
Powerful message. Thank you.
Slifkin hit a new low on עשרת ימי תשובה
Please explain why Bibi's statement was objectionable.
Um, just by reading some of the comments here is enough to understand why his words, or better yet the way he worded them, was an attack on faith.
I don't find it objectionable. The inadequacy of the charedi leadership has been addressed enough times to pass the point of being constructive and has become an obsession by you.
I only found out about this incident from your post. I doubt anyone around me even noticed it. People spoke about Berland being denied entry into Ukraine, but not about this. On עשרת ימי תשובה it's strange to blog about it.
Considering all of God's broken promises and all the other inconsistencies God throws at us, it is grotesque to believe that God actually DOES have answers, but refuses to clue us in. Then, orthodox thinkers take it to the next (illogical) step, that is SUPPOSED to be this way. U see, if we knew the greater good that God has in store for the faithful, then we would, chas v'shalom, lose our free will! Vey iz mir! So, 6M Jews were korbones to the disproved doctrine of Hitler's b'chira chafshis!
You sound like a self-loathing Jew that failed miserably not only as an authentic practitioner of Judiasm, but even as a decent human being
You sound extremely nice and not at all mentally unstable.
Solid argument.
Thanks.
How wrong u r, Levi. U may think I am a self-hating Jew, but tell me 1 thing I said that disqualifies me as a decent human being.
For starters...your very first sentence? You say it is grotesque to say G-d has answers and that He is full of broken promises. It takes a vile individual to talk against He who constantly gives you life every day and you slap Him in the face like that. No, judging by what you wrote, based on your obvious hatred for the One your nation has lived and died for, you are not a decent member of society. Just a hate filled outcast.
Nice response, but I think a more basic reason why this guy should reevaluate his status as a decent human being is based on his satire style of talking about an idea to people who live and die for it.
Leib, if some people get upset when they discuss theology with some1 who disagrees with them, they ought not discuss theology.
Howard, this blog is for people to discuss issues within the framework of religious Judaism. I request that you respect that.
You didn't 'discuss' theology, you made fun of the Torah.
I wasn't getting upset by your statement but your attitude. You are welcome to discuss things respectfully.
Says u!
You're a self hating Jew which means as anon Jew you're an anti-Semite.
U realize u r seriously defaming a person about whom u know very little. For 1, u r wrong.
2nd, even if your guess were correct, a comments page is not meant to be a place to defame people. I might change your name to Uncouth-iel.
A self hating Jew is a "decent person"?
Can u do anything besides hurling insults?
Not sure why the holocaust was any worse than the חורבן and קללות promised in the torah.
You think G-d needs to tell us his plans? How would that not reduce our free will?
Avraham, I would gladly surrender some of Hitler's b'chira chafshis (and life) to save a few million Jews. After the 1st million, God could have done a "hidden" miracle and made it look like a crazy gun accident (but we Jews would know better).
2nd, why do some people try to minimize THE Holocaust by saying it is historically business-as-usual for God to abandon the Jews in a crisis? Takeh, u r right! God ALWAYS abandons us.
G-d created an imperfect world by design.He left it to Man to "subdue" it for good and for Man to create abetter moral, ethical and Torah observant society. Jews and Non-Jews have their role to play. G-d is involved in the world but Man essentially has the responsibility to improve it. When evil men proceed to do do evil it is Man's responsibility to overcome and destroy evil and make the world abetter place both physically and spiritually. The Holocaust is alow point in the
... the history of the world. We strive for a better world and the Days of Moshiach when we will have a better world. The fault is with Man ,not G-d.
Fact: we r imperfect people in an imperfect world. Claims to answer as to WHY God intended it to be imperfect is unknowable. However, claiming that he did so in order for us to improve makes no sense. I am sick of the notion that God created dilemmas and tests us in order to teach us valuable lessons in self-improvement is circular reasoning. If he is loves perfection so much, why did he rig the entire system to teach us how to perfect it. If he created the world right, we would not even NEED lessons on how to perfect it. Your concept turns the world into a make-work jobs project to keep people busy. Pay some people to dig holes, and others to fill them up.
howard you're so ignorant of basic jewish beliefs its ridiculous
If they werent זוכה, then it wouldnt be proper judgement. The judgement was collective as most punishment described in the Torah ( chazal later emphasized a much more individual השגחה פרטית).
G-d already promised us exile and removal of divine protection for not keeping His Torah.
Now that He began the ingathering of the exiles were seeing much more השגחה but nothing is guaranteed.
You know Hashem recently started the process of the ingathering of the exiles because? You have no hard proof at all.
We know Moshiach WILL come, and we pray it happens soon, but we don't know WHEN. Any source you may have from this or that gadol is really a reflection of their strong, authentic desire for it to happen soon, not hard knowledge of timing.
All we know is that it will certainly happen. Rambam is very clear on this point.
Ever read rambam on bar kochva? Geula is a natural process. We only know for sure once its over but while its happening we need to support it as בר כוכבא was בחזקת משיח untill he fell.
Theres a gemara which says that the קץ המגולה is when the land bears its fruit. I think its simple that קיבוץ גליות just means that were back in the land and restore sovereignty (ירושת הארץ as the Ramban would hold). Mashiach ben david and sanhedrin are another story.
You say we only know for certain once it's over. So, we essentially agree. It's just a question of your thinking based on your source that a certain process has begun...but it cannot be stated as fact until it happens, which it certainly will one day, hopefully soon.
Funny you should write that during Parshas Ha'azinu.
See Ramban on this week's Parsha regarding Hashem's promises.
It's very simple. In order to maintain principles, we need to hold on to taboos. The idea that humans are ultimately rational in their analysis is folly. We need red lines wherever we go.
We don't say anything close to mocking God unless in a very philosophical/studious context.
The charedi enemies of Bibi would denounce him if he said משה אמת ותורתו אמת. They like to be contrary for the sake of it.
You're going on record that those who denounced him now never said a nice word about him in their entire careers?
And still remain member$ of the ¢oalitio₪.
Finally abit of love for chazal!
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