Rav Cherlow in his post quoted the Chazon Ish (Emunah u-Bitachon) that G-d does what is best that does not mean he does what we want. Jewish history before Zionism demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jews
When I was a kid, my rebbe told a story about a Jew who, when his son was drafted in WW1, went to some renowned rabbi to pray for God's protection. The great rabbi said we cannot ask God to do something we want. Rather, I can only ask that God's will shall be done. "Well then," I blurted out, "then, please do NOT pray for my son! If God's will is that my son die, why on earth would I ask God's will to be done? Don't do me no favors!"
I actually heard an interesting idea, that tefilla is before we know what Hashems will is so we ask for ours, and when we find out what Hashems will is that's where bitachon comes in, to accept Gods will.
If we know what the end endpoint will be, i.e., that God will exert his will (as he always does), then we already know our prayer is useless. Let's cut to the chase, hang out until God delivers his verdict, then accept it at that time without disappointment. When friends offer condolences that little Sidney fell at the battle of Khe Sanh, we can reply with bitachon: "It is what it is. I am just pleased as punch that God's will was done."
Don, if u r addressing me, I ask because I never got a decent answer, not in Machshava 101, and not in Machshava 10,001. If u have a simple answer, please fly it by me.
Rav Yaacov Emden wrote that the reason we're in Galut and suffer years of prosecution and murder is because we stayed in Galut instead of settling in EY.
If in fact wrote that, it was at a time when the masses of Jews kept the Torah and mitzvos.
You think R. Emden believed that if millions of Jews who threw away the Torah settled in Israel and kept just one mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel out of 613 mitzvahs ....but they ignored the rest...that would be enough to bring Moshaich? That is laughable.
Hopefully enough good Jews that keep all the mitzvos are living in Israel today to hasten the redemption but your interpretation of what he may have said is faulty.
You are highly unpleasant and objectionable and if this conversation was in person you might have suffered the consequences from any number of people here who loathe you and your comments. You are basically apologizing for anti israel propaganda
"Jewish history after Zionism also demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jew"
According to HaModia, the official voices of Daas Torah, and Eicher & Shas, you are a heretic for you deny that "“God has always protected the people of Israel.”
Intersting. After 6 million died in the holocaust you bring up the numbers of the remaining jews in the world and compare the percentage in Israel. Seriously.
Almost every country in europe had their jewish population wiped out. So you are comparing the percentage of jews in in israel to what the united states? Thats a very flawed argument.
Wrong criteria. Desperate times call for desperate measures. His scheme was predicated on the possibility of illegally transferring massive funds to the enemy in wartime, and that the Nazis would be honorable and keep their part of the bargain. It also assumed that the Nazi offer was a serious one, and not a plan to sow division among the allies.
" the zionist ideology was opposed to appeasement. "
You weren't clear. You first mentioned "zionists" and now you mentioned " many secular types, socialists, nationalists, zionists, yiddishists, atheists".
By including more generations of sinners, you may well have evaded the heresy charge, as held by Rav Shach. Congratulations!
Of course, the Lubavitcher Rebbe held otherwise. And the Satmar Rebbe held otherwise.
Re the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he seems to have contradicted himself on that. He came out against R Schach at the time, but it was found in his earlier writings that it was for a particular sin.
As the descendant of those who suffered horribly at the hands of Ukrainians, I cannot bring myself to journey there to spend my money. That's just me. That Russia invaded Ukraine against all international legal norms cannot induce me to exert any effort in Ukraine's defense. Sorry, not sorry.
I have no idea what this sentiment has to do with the thrust of this article - which relates to the clear wilful ignorance of so-called torah scholars on matters so plainly laid out in Torah. However, while I am not motivated to visit Ukraine, and most assuredly not Uman, these are different times. There are Jews who serve in the UKR forces and they have their own Rabbis and mobile Synagogues - the same cannot be said for the Russians - who have willingly bombed Jewish targets (Synagogues) and who TODAY appallingly seek to murder and enslave completely innocent people. If you equate today's Ukrainians with the erstwhile murderous Ukrainians, you are not applying tacheles - same as those Jews who fall for the idea that the current Russians are somehow the Soviets of yore.
Nor were the Germans! Nor were many countries. The Egyptians and the Babylonians tortured and killed Jews only "at certain specific periods in history". That is the lamest defense imaginable for countries that butchered Jews.
Lol, this post is hilarious. How many horrible things have you accused Bibi of, how many countless times have you insulted him and called him names? Yet you're compelled to defend him here, bc the other side is Charedi - a type of Jew you hate even more than Bibi. What was it your ex-countryman said? "Misery acqaunts a man with strange bedfellows."
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
Re the post itself, it is mind-numbingly stupid and petty. Truly, is NS really that desperate to find something - anything! - he thinks useful to attack a Charedi Jew?
I notice there was no actual link to anything Aryeh Erlich actually said, only to a third-hand secularist media website, and that is one of the usual clues that we are getting some sort of distorted NS misrepresentation. Still another clue is the characterizations, eg, "Shas ANGRILY responded", rather than a straight quote. If one is to attack a man and write about it, one should quote his exact words and (on this site, if it involves Hebrew) language. I think we all know by now you can't accept things you read here unless you verify.
So far as I can tell about this tempest in a teapot, the shas guy said Bibi's statement - not Bibi himself - but his statement, that God didnt watch our for us in the Holocaust, constitutes apikorsus. Arguably that goes too far, but arguably its accurate. I dont know, and dont think its anything to get worked up, either from the shas side, the bibi side, or the observer side. Jews have been arguing for thousands of years over what exactly constitutes apikorsis. Is this really something anyone cares about? בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לן?
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
You've got it upside down. The statement was stupid because God decided to withhold His protection from the Holocaust. The statement was stupid because it falsely accused Bibi of making a heretical statement. Other than the character assassination, HaModia, Eichler and Shas may well be nominated for best tantrum in a dramatic performance. You're making the secondary character the main stars of their performance.
"Jews have been arguing for thousands of years over what exactly constitutes apikorsis. Is this really something anyone cares about?"
So you actually agree that HaModia, Eichler and Shas were wrong?
Tantrum? Character assassination? Dont drink the koolaid. To argue over what is and what isnt apikorsis is pointless. It remains amusing, however, that NS is happy to go to bat for a man he's frequently called a liar and a criminal, if he thinks it useful to attack a class of Jews he's called even worse.
A SEFARIA search yielded a long list of infidel rabbis who claim and also rule that where there is danger, one does not trust the miracle even in performing a mitzvah. The question: Do all these books belong in the trash immediately, or because they also contain holy memorials, do I have to cut all the memorials before I throw them in the trash? This is the list: פענח רזא, מאירי, הריב"ש, עקידת יצחק, מזרחי, הזוהר, מדרש רבה, המהר"ל מפראג, השל"ה, הרוקח, קרבן העדה ופני משה על ירושלמי, אור החיים, היעב"ץ, החתם סופר, בועז על המשנה, רש"ר הירש, ערוך השולחן, בן איש חי,
You have wrong pshat in all of them! I won't even explain them since you just won't understand anyway! See איגרת על הביטחון from R. Y.B. Bloch that no one with bitachon was ever let down in history, and when Chazal say אל יעמיד אדם עצמו במקום סכנה ולא יסמוך על נס that is only when he doesn't have proper bitachon, as it says only not to rely on a miracle but one may rely on bitachon.
(Now just for all here who don't have a sense of humor, yes I am not serious, just parating a radical response.)
If that is the case, Avi, why don't u tour all the major yeshivas and set these gdolim straight? Surely, they would be grateful for u to clear up their misguided theology.
It wouldn't work. The Haredim are כופרים בעיקר. The central heresy of the Haredim is worship of more than one god. The "gdolim" are smart enough to realize that they are being worshiped along with the Real God. When I am דן לכף זכות I conjecture that it wouldn't do them any good to deny their divinity. The masses would keep on worshiping them anyway. When I am דן לחובה I conjecture that they enjoy the worship too much. The first conjecture is more likely: the first generation of חסידים deified the first אדמו"רים and it stuck and spread.
There's a strange new theology publicized in Shabbos pamphlets that you can bend Hashem to your will by merely acknowledging that everything is in his hands. True, the Rambam talks about it and Rav Chaim Soloveichik acted on it, but they're talking about finding lost keys or getting a car to start up.
Where is such a Rambam. I've been looking for the source of the idea the Chazon Ish calls a טעות מפורסם.
I also don't know what Rav Chaim you're referring to, do you mean Rav Chaim Valozhiner about אין עוד מלבדו? That was relied on once by the Brisker Rav when running from the Nazis, doing all in his ability to be safe, and when stuck, concentrated on that. There's an Ohr Hachaim that a "segula" to have Hashem go beyond nature for you is by focusing on his power to do anything. I am not aware of more.
I don't find it objectionable. The inadequacy of the charedi leadership has been addressed enough times to pass the point of being constructive and has become an obsession by you.
I only found out about this incident from your post. I doubt anyone around me even noticed it. People spoke about Berland being denied entry into Ukraine, but not about this. On עשרת ימי תשובה it's strange to blog about it.
Considering all of God's broken promises and all the other inconsistencies God throws at us, it is grotesque to believe that God actually DOES have answers, but refuses to clue us in. Then, orthodox thinkers take it to the next (illogical) step, that is SUPPOSED to be this way. U see, if we knew the greater good that God has in store for the faithful, then we would, chas v'shalom, lose our free will! Vey iz mir! So, 6M Jews were korbones to the disproved doctrine of Hitler's b'chira chafshis!
Avraham, I would gladly surrender some of Hitler's b'chira chafshis (and life) to save a few million Jews. After the 1st million, God could have done a "hidden" miracle and made it look like a crazy gun accident (but we Jews would know better).
2nd, why do some people try to minimize THE Holocaust by saying it is historically business-as-usual for God to abandon the Jews in a crisis? Takeh, u r right! God ALWAYS abandons us.
G-d created an imperfect world by design.He left it to Man to "subdue" it for good and for Man to create abetter moral, ethical and Torah observant society. Jews and Non-Jews have their role to play. G-d is involved in the world but Man essentially has the responsibility to improve it. When evil men proceed to do do evil it is Man's responsibility to overcome and destroy evil and make the world abetter place both physically and spiritually. The Holocaust is alow point in the
Fact: we r imperfect people in an imperfect world. Claims to answer as to WHY God intended it to be imperfect is unknowable. However, claiming that he did so in order for us to improve makes no sense. I am sick of the notion that God created dilemmas and tests us in order to teach us valuable lessons in self-improvement is circular reasoning. If he is loves perfection so much, why did he rig the entire system to teach us how to perfect it. If he created the world right, we would not even NEED lessons on how to perfect it. Your concept turns the world into a make-work jobs project to keep people busy. Pay some people to dig holes, and others to fill them up.
If they werent זוכה, then it wouldnt be proper judgement. The judgement was collective as most punishment described in the Torah ( chazal later emphasized a much more individual השגחה פרטית).
G-d already promised us exile and removal of divine protection for not keeping His Torah.
Now that He began the ingathering of the exiles were seeing much more השגחה but nothing is guaranteed.
You know Hashem recently started the process of the ingathering of the exiles because? You have no hard proof at all.
We know Moshiach WILL come, and we pray it happens soon, but we don't know WHEN. Any source you may have from this or that gadol is really a reflection of their strong, authentic desire for it to happen soon, not hard knowledge of timing.
All we know is that it will certainly happen. Rambam is very clear on this point.
Ever read rambam on bar kochva? Geula is a natural process. We only know for sure once its over but while its happening we need to support it as בר כוכבא was בחזקת משיח untill he fell.
Theres a gemara which says that the קץ המגולה is when the land bears its fruit. I think its simple that קיבוץ גליות just means that were back in the land and restore sovereignty (ירושת הארץ as the Ramban would hold). Mashiach ben david and sanhedrin are another story.
You say we only know for certain once it's over. So, we essentially agree. It's just a question of your thinking based on your source that a certain process has begun...but it cannot be stated as fact until it happens, which it certainly will one day, hopefully soon.
Nice response, but I think a more basic reason why this guy should reevaluate his status as a decent human being is based on his satire style of talking about an idea to people who live and die for it.
It's very simple. In order to maintain principles, we need to hold on to taboos. The idea that humans are ultimately rational in their analysis is folly. We need red lines wherever we go.
We don't say anything close to mocking God unless in a very philosophical/studious context.
Hard to argue with the miraculous victories weve experienced and the land bearing its fruit but ye i hear. The context i mentioned the geula in was the fact that דווקא in גלות, were punished with חמת קרי. The חמת קרי is brought in the torah as part of the punishment of גלות. One can say that we dont kniw the future but its certain that were more protected here.
They believe that they believe in what the Torah says. But as RNS says the facts don't always follow through true to their beliefs.They wear blinders which distort their ability to evaluate their own statements.
On the one hand the PMs words were correct but on the other hand his context was the opposite of the חמת קרי described in the Torah which is direct השגחה on עם ישראל as a whole. Eichler on the other hand should be thrown out of the knesset for insulting the state as him and his gedolim didnt prevent a holocaust either.
In any case, one shouldnt expect much theological statements made by politicians.
Rav Cherlow in his post quoted the Chazon Ish (Emunah u-Bitachon) that G-d does what is best that does not mean he does what we want. Jewish history before Zionism demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jews
When I was a kid, my rebbe told a story about a Jew who, when his son was drafted in WW1, went to some renowned rabbi to pray for God's protection. The great rabbi said we cannot ask God to do something we want. Rather, I can only ask that God's will shall be done. "Well then," I blurted out, "then, please do NOT pray for my son! If God's will is that my son die, why on earth would I ask God's will to be done? Don't do me no favors!"
That Rebbi needs a lesson on Tefilla.
I actually heard an interesting idea, that tefilla is before we know what Hashems will is so we ask for ours, and when we find out what Hashems will is that's where bitachon comes in, to accept Gods will.
If we know what the end endpoint will be, i.e., that God will exert his will (as he always does), then we already know our prayer is useless. Let's cut to the chase, hang out until God delivers his verdict, then accept it at that time without disappointment. When friends offer condolences that little Sidney fell at the battle of Khe Sanh, we can reply with bitachon: "It is what it is. I am just pleased as punch that God's will was done."
Why do you ask a question that's addressed in Machshava 101?
Don, if u r addressing me, I ask because I never got a decent answer, not in Machshava 101, and not in Machshava 10,001. If u have a simple answer, please fly it by me.
Leib, since only u seem to KNOW what tfilla REALLY is, why don't u straighten out all the unenlightened Haredim?
Rav Yaacov Emden wrote that the reason we're in Galut and suffer years of prosecution and murder is because we stayed in Galut instead of settling in EY.
If in fact wrote that, it was at a time when the masses of Jews kept the Torah and mitzvos.
You think R. Emden believed that if millions of Jews who threw away the Torah settled in Israel and kept just one mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel out of 613 mitzvahs ....but they ignored the rest...that would be enough to bring Moshaich? That is laughable.
Hopefully enough good Jews that keep all the mitzvos are living in Israel today to hasten the redemption but your interpretation of what he may have said is faulty.
"You think R. Emden believed ..."
I'm not sure how Yekutiel's comment led you to such conclusions.
"but your interpretation"
He didn't interpret anything. (Though it would be nice to see the quote properly cited.)
So you have an appointment with G-D
Who will tell you why Jews are suffering today and what to do.
You're sure he won’t tell you to enlist in Tzhal immediately! We know what G-D wants! Just count up the Marei Mkomots.
As your comment is only a single opinion it is hereby rejected out of hand
So don’t come here….we don’t need nor want you….
I don’t disagree with my own facts. The fact is you are extremely unpleasant, and you have the views of the meraglim, look what happened to them….
None died in these battles!?
Yisuv Haaretz demands sacrifice even at a threat of death.But you
do’nt believe in the Mitvvah!
You are highly unpleasant and objectionable and if this conversation was in person you might have suffered the consequences from any number of people here who loathe you and your comments. You are basically apologizing for anti israel propaganda
"Jewish history after Zionism also demonstrates that G-d does not always protect the Jew"
According to HaModia, the official voices of Daas Torah, and Eicher & Shas, you are a heretic for you deny that "“God has always protected the people of Israel.”
Yes a remnant would remain as per the Brit with the Avot.
Intersting. After 6 million died in the holocaust you bring up the numbers of the remaining jews in the world and compare the percentage in Israel. Seriously.
Almost every country in europe had their jewish population wiped out. So you are comparing the percentage of jews in in israel to what the united states? Thats a very flawed argument.
"so few secular Zionist leaders actually cared enough to help when they didn't have a state. "
What are you talking about?
"were quite sane and logical"
Wrong criteria. Desperate times call for desperate measures. His scheme was predicated on the possibility of illegally transferring massive funds to the enemy in wartime, and that the Nazis would be honorable and keep their part of the bargain. It also assumed that the Nazi offer was a serious one, and not a plan to sow division among the allies.
" the zionist ideology was opposed to appeasement. "
What zionist ideology? What appeasement?
Are you implying that the Holocaust was punishment against the Zionists? Then according to Rav Shach, you're a heretic.
You weren't clear. You first mentioned "zionists" and now you mentioned " many secular types, socialists, nationalists, zionists, yiddishists, atheists".
By including more generations of sinners, you may well have evaded the heresy charge, as held by Rav Shach. Congratulations!
Of course, the Lubavitcher Rebbe held otherwise. And the Satmar Rebbe held otherwise.
Re the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he seems to have contradicted himself on that. He came out against R Schach at the time, but it was found in his earlier writings that it was for a particular sin.
As the descendant of those who suffered horribly at the hands of Ukrainians, I cannot bring myself to journey there to spend my money. That's just me. That Russia invaded Ukraine against all international legal norms cannot induce me to exert any effort in Ukraine's defense. Sorry, not sorry.
I have no idea what this sentiment has to do with the thrust of this article - which relates to the clear wilful ignorance of so-called torah scholars on matters so plainly laid out in Torah. However, while I am not motivated to visit Ukraine, and most assuredly not Uman, these are different times. There are Jews who serve in the UKR forces and they have their own Rabbis and mobile Synagogues - the same cannot be said for the Russians - who have willingly bombed Jewish targets (Synagogues) and who TODAY appallingly seek to murder and enslave completely innocent people. If you equate today's Ukrainians with the erstwhile murderous Ukrainians, you are not applying tacheles - same as those Jews who fall for the idea that the current Russians are somehow the Soviets of yore.
"The Ukraine of today is clearly not the Ukraine of the past. "
It should also be noted that the Ukrainian were not consistently the inhumane butchers they were at certain specific periods in history.
Nor were the Germans! Nor were many countries. The Egyptians and the Babylonians tortured and killed Jews only "at certain specific periods in history". That is the lamest defense imaginable for countries that butchered Jews.
If u cannot "forgive" Germany and Egypt for their periods of anti-Semitism, let's not forget Spain, England, Brazil, and the US.
It's not just you - and none of my family came from Ukraine.
I hold with those who suggest we judge the Ukraine of today as it is, not as it was. Should we condemn the bnai Korach because of their father's sins?
As I just posted earlier:
א"ל והכתיב לא יהיה שריד לבית עשו בעושה מעשה עשו
The children of עשו are only considered בית עשו if they continue to practice his evil acts.
Lol, this post is hilarious. How many horrible things have you accused Bibi of, how many countless times have you insulted him and called him names? Yet you're compelled to defend him here, bc the other side is Charedi - a type of Jew you hate even more than Bibi. What was it your ex-countryman said? "Misery acqaunts a man with strange bedfellows."
Other than that, you agree with the post that these Charedi representatives said stupid, perhaps heretical things?
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
Re the post itself, it is mind-numbingly stupid and petty. Truly, is NS really that desperate to find something - anything! - he thinks useful to attack a Charedi Jew?
I notice there was no actual link to anything Aryeh Erlich actually said, only to a third-hand secularist media website, and that is one of the usual clues that we are getting some sort of distorted NS misrepresentation. Still another clue is the characterizations, eg, "Shas ANGRILY responded", rather than a straight quote. If one is to attack a man and write about it, one should quote his exact words and (on this site, if it involves Hebrew) language. I think we all know by now you can't accept things you read here unless you verify.
So far as I can tell about this tempest in a teapot, the shas guy said Bibi's statement - not Bibi himself - but his statement, that God didnt watch our for us in the Holocaust, constitutes apikorsus. Arguably that goes too far, but arguably its accurate. I dont know, and dont think its anything to get worked up, either from the shas side, the bibi side, or the observer side. Jews have been arguing for thousands of years over what exactly constitutes apikorsis. Is this really something anyone cares about? בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לן?
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
You've got it upside down. The statement was stupid because God decided to withhold His protection from the Holocaust. The statement was stupid because it falsely accused Bibi of making a heretical statement. Other than the character assassination, HaModia, Eichler and Shas may well be nominated for best tantrum in a dramatic performance. You're making the secondary character the main stars of their performance.
"Jews have been arguing for thousands of years over what exactly constitutes apikorsis. Is this really something anyone cares about?"
So you actually agree that HaModia, Eichler and Shas were wrong?
Tantrum? Character assassination? Dont drink the koolaid. To argue over what is and what isnt apikorsis is pointless. It remains amusing, however, that NS is happy to go to bat for a man he's frequently called a liar and a criminal, if he thinks it useful to attack a class of Jews he's called even worse.
A SEFARIA search yielded a long list of infidel rabbis who claim and also rule that where there is danger, one does not trust the miracle even in performing a mitzvah. The question: Do all these books belong in the trash immediately, or because they also contain holy memorials, do I have to cut all the memorials before I throw them in the trash? This is the list: פענח רזא, מאירי, הריב"ש, עקידת יצחק, מזרחי, הזוהר, מדרש רבה, המהר"ל מפראג, השל"ה, הרוקח, קרבן העדה ופני משה על ירושלמי, אור החיים, היעב"ץ, החתם סופר, בועז על המשנה, רש"ר הירש, ערוך השולחן, בן איש חי,
You have wrong pshat in all of them! I won't even explain them since you just won't understand anyway! See איגרת על הביטחון from R. Y.B. Bloch that no one with bitachon was ever let down in history, and when Chazal say אל יעמיד אדם עצמו במקום סכנה ולא יסמוך על נס that is only when he doesn't have proper bitachon, as it says only not to rely on a miracle but one may rely on bitachon.
(Now just for all here who don't have a sense of humor, yes I am not serious, just parating a radical response.)
Yes, I stand corrected.
I hear people just calling him Joe blo so I wrote the B by mistake.
All the Haredim are heretics. So wha else is new?
If that is the case, Avi, why don't u tour all the major yeshivas and set these gdolim straight? Surely, they would be grateful for u to clear up their misguided theology.
It wouldn't work. The Haredim are כופרים בעיקר. The central heresy of the Haredim is worship of more than one god. The "gdolim" are smart enough to realize that they are being worshiped along with the Real God. When I am דן לכף זכות I conjecture that it wouldn't do them any good to deny their divinity. The masses would keep on worshiping them anyway. When I am דן לחובה I conjecture that they enjoy the worship too much. The first conjecture is more likely: the first generation of חסידים deified the first אדמו"רים and it stuck and spread.
So did you get the doctor closer to Judaism or further?
There's a strange new theology publicized in Shabbos pamphlets that you can bend Hashem to your will by merely acknowledging that everything is in his hands. True, the Rambam talks about it and Rav Chaim Soloveichik acted on it, but they're talking about finding lost keys or getting a car to start up.
Where is such a Rambam. I've been looking for the source of the idea the Chazon Ish calls a טעות מפורסם.
I also don't know what Rav Chaim you're referring to, do you mean Rav Chaim Valozhiner about אין עוד מלבדו? That was relied on once by the Brisker Rav when running from the Nazis, doing all in his ability to be safe, and when stuck, concentrated on that. There's an Ohr Hachaim that a "segula" to have Hashem go beyond nature for you is by focusing on his power to do anything. I am not aware of more.
Powerful message. Thank you.
Slifkin hit a new low on עשרת ימי תשובה
Please explain why Bibi's statement was objectionable.
Um, just by reading some of the comments here is enough to understand why his words, or better yet the way he worded them, was an attack on faith.
I don't find it objectionable. The inadequacy of the charedi leadership has been addressed enough times to pass the point of being constructive and has become an obsession by you.
I only found out about this incident from your post. I doubt anyone around me even noticed it. People spoke about Berland being denied entry into Ukraine, but not about this. On עשרת ימי תשובה it's strange to blog about it.
Considering all of God's broken promises and all the other inconsistencies God throws at us, it is grotesque to believe that God actually DOES have answers, but refuses to clue us in. Then, orthodox thinkers take it to the next (illogical) step, that is SUPPOSED to be this way. U see, if we knew the greater good that God has in store for the faithful, then we would, chas v'shalom, lose our free will! Vey iz mir! So, 6M Jews were korbones to the disproved doctrine of Hitler's b'chira chafshis!
Not sure why the holocaust was any worse than the חורבן and קללות promised in the torah.
You think G-d needs to tell us his plans? How would that not reduce our free will?
Avraham, I would gladly surrender some of Hitler's b'chira chafshis (and life) to save a few million Jews. After the 1st million, God could have done a "hidden" miracle and made it look like a crazy gun accident (but we Jews would know better).
2nd, why do some people try to minimize THE Holocaust by saying it is historically business-as-usual for God to abandon the Jews in a crisis? Takeh, u r right! God ALWAYS abandons us.
G-d created an imperfect world by design.He left it to Man to "subdue" it for good and for Man to create abetter moral, ethical and Torah observant society. Jews and Non-Jews have their role to play. G-d is involved in the world but Man essentially has the responsibility to improve it. When evil men proceed to do do evil it is Man's responsibility to overcome and destroy evil and make the world abetter place both physically and spiritually. The Holocaust is alow point in the
... the history of the world. We strive for a better world and the Days of Moshiach when we will have a better world. The fault is with Man ,not G-d.
Fact: we r imperfect people in an imperfect world. Claims to answer as to WHY God intended it to be imperfect is unknowable. However, claiming that he did so in order for us to improve makes no sense. I am sick of the notion that God created dilemmas and tests us in order to teach us valuable lessons in self-improvement is circular reasoning. If he is loves perfection so much, why did he rig the entire system to teach us how to perfect it. If he created the world right, we would not even NEED lessons on how to perfect it. Your concept turns the world into a make-work jobs project to keep people busy. Pay some people to dig holes, and others to fill them up.
howard you're so ignorant of basic jewish beliefs its ridiculous
If they werent זוכה, then it wouldnt be proper judgement. The judgement was collective as most punishment described in the Torah ( chazal later emphasized a much more individual השגחה פרטית).
G-d already promised us exile and removal of divine protection for not keeping His Torah.
Now that He began the ingathering of the exiles were seeing much more השגחה but nothing is guaranteed.
You know Hashem recently started the process of the ingathering of the exiles because? You have no hard proof at all.
We know Moshiach WILL come, and we pray it happens soon, but we don't know WHEN. Any source you may have from this or that gadol is really a reflection of their strong, authentic desire for it to happen soon, not hard knowledge of timing.
All we know is that it will certainly happen. Rambam is very clear on this point.
Ever read rambam on bar kochva? Geula is a natural process. We only know for sure once its over but while its happening we need to support it as בר כוכבא was בחזקת משיח untill he fell.
Theres a gemara which says that the קץ המגולה is when the land bears its fruit. I think its simple that קיבוץ גליות just means that were back in the land and restore sovereignty (ירושת הארץ as the Ramban would hold). Mashiach ben david and sanhedrin are another story.
You say we only know for certain once it's over. So, we essentially agree. It's just a question of your thinking based on your source that a certain process has begun...but it cannot be stated as fact until it happens, which it certainly will one day, hopefully soon.
How wrong u r, Levi. U may think I am a self-hating Jew, but tell me 1 thing I said that disqualifies me as a decent human being.
You're a self hating Jew which means as anon Jew you're an anti-Semite.
U realize u r seriously defaming a person about whom u know very little. For 1, u r wrong.
2nd, even if your guess were correct, a comments page is not meant to be a place to defame people. I might change your name to Uncouth-iel.
A self hating Jew is a "decent person"?
Can u do anything besides hurling insults?
Nice response, but I think a more basic reason why this guy should reevaluate his status as a decent human being is based on his satire style of talking about an idea to people who live and die for it.
Leib, if some people get upset when they discuss theology with some1 who disagrees with them, they ought not discuss theology.
Howard, this blog is for people to discuss issues within the framework of religious Judaism. I request that you respect that.
I wasn't getting upset by your statement but your attitude. You are welcome to discuss things respectfully.
Says u!
It's very simple. In order to maintain principles, we need to hold on to taboos. The idea that humans are ultimately rational in their analysis is folly. We need red lines wherever we go.
We don't say anything close to mocking God unless in a very philosophical/studious context.
The charedi enemies of Bibi would denounce him if he said משה אמת ותורתו אמת. They like to be contrary for the sake of it.
You're going on record that those who denounced him now never said a nice word about him in their entire careers?
And still remain member$ of the ¢oalitio₪.
Finally abit of love for chazal!
https://open.substack.com/pub/doniel/p/whats-special-about-my-esrog?r=2842py&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Hard to argue with the miraculous victories weve experienced and the land bearing its fruit but ye i hear. The context i mentioned the geula in was the fact that דווקא in גלות, were punished with חמת קרי. The חמת קרי is brought in the torah as part of the punishment of גלות. One can say that we dont kniw the future but its certain that were more protected here.
The PM's statement seemed to them to suggest that Hashem is not Shomer Yisrael.
They did not consider the factors that might mitigate full protection.
They believe that they believe in what the Torah says. But as RNS says the facts don't always follow through true to their beliefs.They wear blinders which distort their ability to evaluate their own statements.
On the one hand the PMs words were correct but on the other hand his context was the opposite of the חמת קרי described in the Torah which is direct השגחה on עם ישראל as a whole. Eichler on the other hand should be thrown out of the knesset for insulting the state as him and his gedolim didnt prevent a holocaust either.
In any case, one shouldnt expect much theological statements made by politicians.