I had no idea that there was a custom of a siren and standing in silence until we made Aliya some 20 years ago. I never thought that deeply about it, and instinctively stood and said Tehillim during the moment of silence and have been doing so ever since. I talk with Hashem and thank Him for this beautiful land, but remember all those who sacrificed to bring us to this place, this moment (and because I am who I am, I beg Him to send Mashiach so no more of us need to suffer). My underlying thought is that this is a moment of unity, where everyone in Israel is thinking about the same thing. This is a beautiful opportunity to turn to Hashem, for surely our unity resonates with Hashem. At the time of our first siren, and in fact, really until reading this article, I didn't think that there was a controversy or that my saying Tehillim during the siren could be offensive to some. I still don't believe there really is a controversy. I think that when the sirens sound, regardless of your beliefs, there is a moment where we all think about those who lost their lives in the building of this modern nation. Reactions to the siren might be different, but there is no doubt that the sound of it has the impact of turning your thoughts to its intended purpose. And in that way, and for those moments, we are a united people.
But when you recite tehillim in public during the siren, while the national norm is to stand still and contemplate, it can be legitimately perceived that you are avoiding thinking about the soldiers who were killed (or the victims of terror), and instead you are distracting yourself with the words of the tehillim and thus making a statement: at best an anti-zionist one, and at worst, a message of disregard and apathy for those who were sacrificed so you can lead your normal life. Regardless of your intent, this is the perception.
Tehillim are read every day and very often across the spectrum of sectors of the Israeli public, why not make the siren meaningful in a special way? Just for 2 minutes...then say tehillim ?
It IS meaningful in a special way! My deepest respect is paid to those who sacrificed. For me, part of honoring them and showing my gratitude is by saying Tehillim at that moment. It is my way of contemplating the enormity of the price our people have paid to get to this moment. I am not distracting myself, I am focusing myself. I am not making a statement, I am honoring the moment, albeit in a slightly different way than you do. It is quite a leap from honoring the moment in a slightly different way to being at best an anti-zionist, or someone who has disregard and apathy for those who sacrificed. At some point, it is the *interpretation* of my actions by others that is wrong, and not my actions. That is pretty fierce judgement.
I wonder if the originators of this custom would have been so quick to condemn me as an anti-zionist or someone who has disregard and apathy for saying Tehillim and speaking to Hashem during the siren. I doubt that they would have considered that to be unacceptable. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them didn't use that time to beg Hashem for help and kindness. I can't be sure, but I could easily imagine Menachem Begin reciting Tehillim during the siren.
FTR, I am not Chareidiya, all my children were zochech to serve this holy nation (boys in IDF and girls in Sherut Le'Umi), and I live in an extraordinarily Tzioni yishuv. I recite the prayer for the medina and the mishuberach for the Tzhahal every week in shul. It's hard for me to imagine anyone considering me, at best an anti-zionist, and at worst having disregard and apathy for the suffering of our soldiers because I recite Tehillim during the siren. I have faith that Hashem won't judge and condemn me so harshly for this particular failing.
In the village of Endingen in Switzerland, church bells were needed in times of danger. However, since there was no church in the village, the shul got...church bells!
If you would like to start a new mourning custom that has "conceptual support" (read: irrelevant support) in traditional Judaism, I would submit that the Neturei Karta does a better job by burning Israeli flags. After all, the halacha is שורפין על המלכים. And by turning the Israeli flags upside-down, they are conceptually fulfilling כפיית המטה.
But in all seriousness, I don't see the need to defend goyishe customs that you yourself admit were not rooted in Judaism, your irrelevant ramozim notwithstanding. Just say that you proudly follow the custom of your country, whether Jewish or not. If somebody can light fireworks on Fourth of July, the silence of Yom Hazikaron is no worse than that.
As for Tehillim, it seems that you are unaware that Tehillim is prayer, instead imagining it to be a magical "mystical" incantation of sorts. Do you say Pesukei Dezimrah? Do you say Hallel?
IOW, as the MODs & the Chards disagree on, in the general, the priority of באל"מ & באל"ח, so too do they disagree about their sentimentalisms whether they are fluff or genuine.
breath. You are so way out with your hateful comments. You seem to be paid off to counter RNS by constantly belittling, insulting,and calling him names.
We see what you are. You don't fool us for a minute. Endless ridiculous comments. Satmar and particularly Ntura Karta are a disgrace in rabbinic garb.
I don't do name calling or hateful comments. OTOH Natan has had a blog dedicated to promoting hatred of chareidim for many years. Too bad you guys can't handle a bit of constructive criticism. We had some more constructive criticism this morning by the way:
The Rema makes up silly nonsense to give Jewish reasons for goyishe customs, like Natan does here? I never said it's assur, aderaba, there is nothing wrong with proudly admitting it is a goyishe custom.
You talk about "silly nonsense" and yet you " never said it's assur". In the same breath, you refer to the Remah.
This make no sense. The Remah includes "silly nonsense" in his criteria for determining what is חוקת הגויים. You can't claim a practice is "silly nonsense" and at the same time say it's forbidden.
In any case, nothing RNS wrote is nonsense. The only remaining issue is whether what he wrote is sufficient to meet the standards of those (i.e. the minority) who reject the Remah in favor of a more broad definition of חוקת הגויים.
Sorry, usually I understand you but this made no sense. You were the one who brought up the Rema. I never said standing in silence is assur. Nor do I think it's silly. It's exceedingly silly to pretend it has roots in וידם אהרן when it's clearly just a goyishe custom that the secular zionists adopted (sure, you can make up ramozim for anything). That doesn't mean it's not meaningful, many goyishe customs are meaningful.
You're being dishonest. No one has made the claims you write here. What RNS wrote was that "it even has conceptual roots in Judaism". He clearly reported the facts behind the origin of the custom. You falsely claim that someone has pretended that " it has roots in וידם אהרן ". No one made this claim.
You still don't understand the Remah. Once a custom is not under the forbidden three categories it is by definition not חוקת הגויים. No further defense is needed.
On the other hand, if your criteria is broader than the Remah's than you can still invoked the reasoning mentioned by RNS. (And it's not just RNS. See שו"ת בני בנים for more details there.)
" that the secular zionists adopted "
Another distortion. Many religious Zionists adopted it as well.
You're being dishonest. I never brought up the Rema, and never said it was חוקת הגויים. I was just noting how silly it is to say a custom that was taken straight from the goyim has conceptual roots in Judaism.
I had no idea the custom was just over a 100 years old and that it originated in South Africa. I'm about to go out of my home so as to stand in public at the sound of the 8pm siren.
Every time you mention "pouring lead" is a fresh reminder of how little you know about the Charedi world. (To explain: What percent of Charedim do you think has actually ever "poured lead" - half of one percent? Less? More Americas per capita believe the moon landing was faked or the world is flat. As we dont say "Americans" believe this, we don't speak of pouring lead practiced by "Charedim.")
"This is not the same as the actual reason why they do not stand for the siren, which is that they do not want to identify as part of Zionist society."
Indeed. Which is why none of the commenters with an opposing viewpoint have actually addressed the halachic arguments stated in this post.
Others are saying that the "halachic arguments stated in this post" are hardly ever, if ever at all, stated by those who oppose "them". What then is there to address?
As to avoid identifying with Zionism, I mention in my other comment above or below, this reasoning has made its way into the Halachic corpus.
רצונו של אדם זהו כבודו (ספר חסידים קנב ע"פ ירושלמי פאה א,א).
If that's what the soldiers wanted when they were alive, the least we can do is give it to them. You can read Tehillim the whole day long if you want, why do it just at that time?
"(Note that in this post I am just addressing the purported arguments that charedim give for not standing quietly during the siren. This is not the same as the actual reason why they do not stand for the siren, which is that they do not want to identify as part of Zionist society.)"
Funny, I've attended chareidi Yeshiva Ketana, Mesivta, Beis Medrash, Post BM Yeshivos, Kollelim, and shuls all my life. I've read Chareidi literature from pashkivilim to Jewish Observer for years, and I've heard thousands of hours of hashkafa shiurim in person and on recording from the full gamut of chareidi lecturers.
And the ONLY reasoning I've ever heard - and consistently hear - for specifically not standing for the siren is some version of not wanting to to identify with Zionistic society and their agenda laced institutions and rituals.
I guess Medrash Shmuel is somewhat of an outlier in this.
Either that or Natan finds it more convenient to make up realities which he feels he has a good comment on, than to actually try to comment on existing realities.
Vayidom Aharon is not a traditional Jewish response to tragedy. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Aharon was special, he was not allowed to express his pain, he needed to stay quiet and not express his pain.
Ramban writes quite clearly that the non-Jewish names of the months are used to fulfill a prophecy, not to follow the Goyim
Why do you assume that Aharon stood quiet because he was not allowed to express pain? I think a better hypothesis is that Aharon didn’t want to complain and thus become the object of Hashem’s wrath and come to the same end as his son’s did. After all who wants to wants to be roasted alive by a lightning bolt from Shamayim?
Who said Aharon did something wrong? But my hypothesis is: if he were to complain, the fate that befell his sons might befall him too. That was my conjecture as to why he didn’t complain about his son’s merciless comeuppance. Mine is as good a conjecture as anyone else’s.
"Ramban writes quite clearly that the non-Jewish names of the months are used to fulfill a prophecy, not to follow the Goyim"
See מנחם כשר in תורה שלימה in the מילואים. He writes that since the names of the months were names of ע"ז, Chazal endeavored to sanitize them, by "Judaizing" them and giving them Jewish content. The addition of the siren, which invokes the shofar, can arguably be a fulfillment of this concept. (Again, according to the Rema, this is not necessary.)
"Vayidom Aharon is not a traditional Jewish response to tragedy. In fact, it is the exact opposite. "
שמחות ב:ח : אין בין שתיקה לבכיה כלום
נחלת יעקב: ר"ל אם שותקין האבלים הוי כמו בכיה
"Ramban writes quite clearly that the non-Jewish names of the months are used to fulfill a prophecy, not to follow the Goyim"
That's the point, isn't it? According to the Rema, a non-Jewish practice can be adopted if there's a good reason for it (and it's not implicitly idolatrous or pritzus). Standing silently for the siren, is not about imitating the gentiles. (By the way, I'm not aware of any other country that follows the Israeli practice. So it's not really following the gentiles, is it?)
I'm not aware of any chareidim who say Tehilim for those who passed on (besides the universal custom of saying specific Psalms at a funeral). What chareidim will do is study Torah in memory of the niftar.
Utter chutpah to take demand that the zionishe medinah financially support yeshivas & families but not to show hakorat hatov, especially to those who gave their lives. W/o the IDF, arab butchers would slaughter every chareidi as fast as every chiloni.
The issue is not the origin of standing silently for 2 minutes. The issue for many chareidim is who decided on the 2 minute standing. It is the same reason why very few charedim will say the Mi Shebairach L’Tzahal. I just don’t understand their reasoning. Is their hate for anything the Medina draws up stronger than their turning to Hashem to protect the IDF who is defending them? The idea that they will be protected no matter what b/c they sit and learn died in 1939.
Standing for the siren and thinking about the fallen is a good custom. I like it. It's not worth arguing about it and analysing who stands and who doesn't and why. It's a waste of time. Slifkin neither won nor lost this round. Let's honor the fallen and not argue who does and who doesn't. It's in bad taste.
"Of course, if I was in public, I would nevertheless stand in silence out of respect for others."
I can't speak about you personally, but I know many people tell themselves that they are "respecting others", when the reality is they just don't have the guts to do anything otherwise. As Ogden Nash put it in a poem, "Which is Mine - Tolerance or a Rubber Spine?"
I had no idea that there was a custom of a siren and standing in silence until we made Aliya some 20 years ago. I never thought that deeply about it, and instinctively stood and said Tehillim during the moment of silence and have been doing so ever since. I talk with Hashem and thank Him for this beautiful land, but remember all those who sacrificed to bring us to this place, this moment (and because I am who I am, I beg Him to send Mashiach so no more of us need to suffer). My underlying thought is that this is a moment of unity, where everyone in Israel is thinking about the same thing. This is a beautiful opportunity to turn to Hashem, for surely our unity resonates with Hashem. At the time of our first siren, and in fact, really until reading this article, I didn't think that there was a controversy or that my saying Tehillim during the siren could be offensive to some. I still don't believe there really is a controversy. I think that when the sirens sound, regardless of your beliefs, there is a moment where we all think about those who lost their lives in the building of this modern nation. Reactions to the siren might be different, but there is no doubt that the sound of it has the impact of turning your thoughts to its intended purpose. And in that way, and for those moments, we are a united people.
But when you recite tehillim in public during the siren, while the national norm is to stand still and contemplate, it can be legitimately perceived that you are avoiding thinking about the soldiers who were killed (or the victims of terror), and instead you are distracting yourself with the words of the tehillim and thus making a statement: at best an anti-zionist one, and at worst, a message of disregard and apathy for those who were sacrificed so you can lead your normal life. Regardless of your intent, this is the perception.
Tehillim are read every day and very often across the spectrum of sectors of the Israeli public, why not make the siren meaningful in a special way? Just for 2 minutes...then say tehillim ?
It IS meaningful in a special way! My deepest respect is paid to those who sacrificed. For me, part of honoring them and showing my gratitude is by saying Tehillim at that moment. It is my way of contemplating the enormity of the price our people have paid to get to this moment. I am not distracting myself, I am focusing myself. I am not making a statement, I am honoring the moment, albeit in a slightly different way than you do. It is quite a leap from honoring the moment in a slightly different way to being at best an anti-zionist, or someone who has disregard and apathy for those who sacrificed. At some point, it is the *interpretation* of my actions by others that is wrong, and not my actions. That is pretty fierce judgement.
I wonder if the originators of this custom would have been so quick to condemn me as an anti-zionist or someone who has disregard and apathy for saying Tehillim and speaking to Hashem during the siren. I doubt that they would have considered that to be unacceptable. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them didn't use that time to beg Hashem for help and kindness. I can't be sure, but I could easily imagine Menachem Begin reciting Tehillim during the siren.
FTR, I am not Chareidiya, all my children were zochech to serve this holy nation (boys in IDF and girls in Sherut Le'Umi), and I live in an extraordinarily Tzioni yishuv. I recite the prayer for the medina and the mishuberach for the Tzhahal every week in shul. It's hard for me to imagine anyone considering me, at best an anti-zionist, and at worst having disregard and apathy for the suffering of our soldiers because I recite Tehillim during the siren. I have faith that Hashem won't judge and condemn me so harshly for this particular failing.
Let those who stand silent continue that and let those who say Tehillim continue that. Both are expressing respect in their own manner.
In the village of Endingen in Switzerland, church bells were needed in times of danger. However, since there was no church in the village, the shul got...church bells!
If you would like to start a new mourning custom that has "conceptual support" (read: irrelevant support) in traditional Judaism, I would submit that the Neturei Karta does a better job by burning Israeli flags. After all, the halacha is שורפין על המלכים. And by turning the Israeli flags upside-down, they are conceptually fulfilling כפיית המטה.
But in all seriousness, I don't see the need to defend goyishe customs that you yourself admit were not rooted in Judaism, your irrelevant ramozim notwithstanding. Just say that you proudly follow the custom of your country, whether Jewish or not. If somebody can light fireworks on Fourth of July, the silence of Yom Hazikaron is no worse than that.
As for Tehillim, it seems that you are unaware that Tehillim is prayer, instead imagining it to be a magical "mystical" incantation of sorts. Do you say Pesukei Dezimrah? Do you say Hallel?
(I also want to note that this post is a copy from 2018 https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2018/04/standing-for-siren.html)
Forget Neturei Karta. If you can prove standing for the siren is "fluffy spirituality" he will be first in line to mock the practice.
Like!
IOW, as the MODs & the Chards disagree on, in the general, the priority of באל"מ & באל"ח, so too do they disagree about their sentimentalisms whether they are fluff or genuine.
("Their sentimentalisms" = those of באל"מ & באל"ח respectively.)
Breathing is also done by goyim.Hold
your
breath. You are so way out with your hateful comments. You seem to be paid off to counter RNS by constantly belittling, insulting,and calling him names.
We see what you are. You don't fool us for a minute. Endless ridiculous comments. Satmar and particularly Ntura Karta are a disgrace in rabbinic garb.
I don't do name calling or hateful comments. OTOH Natan has had a blog dedicated to promoting hatred of chareidim for many years. Too bad you guys can't handle a bit of constructive criticism. We had some more constructive criticism this morning by the way:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/what-is-a-jew
How dare you insult the Gedolim of Neturei Karta and Satmar. You're so hateful. You must be getting paid off.
I don't insult them. We all know their ideology threatens the lives of the Jewish people in Israel.
And I never insulted you or promoted hatred. I just said that your (the secularist's) ideology is what threatens the lives of the Jewish people in Israel. See this https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
Yes I admire their their dedication to Torah. But their ideology endangers the Jewish people in Israe
You have missed his point of course. His point is that claiming that it is 'against halochoh' is the usual chareidi ignorance.
You desperately need a life lol. Calling back to 2018 posts.
" I don't see the need to defend goyishe customs that you yourself admit were not rooted in Judaism,"
So you're against the Rema? The Rema defends non-Jewish customs if they don't fall into the three categories he lists in OC 178:1.
The Rema makes up silly nonsense to give Jewish reasons for goyishe customs, like Natan does here? I never said it's assur, aderaba, there is nothing wrong with proudly admitting it is a goyishe custom.
You talk about "silly nonsense" and yet you " never said it's assur". In the same breath, you refer to the Remah.
This make no sense. The Remah includes "silly nonsense" in his criteria for determining what is חוקת הגויים. You can't claim a practice is "silly nonsense" and at the same time say it's forbidden.
In any case, nothing RNS wrote is nonsense. The only remaining issue is whether what he wrote is sufficient to meet the standards of those (i.e. the minority) who reject the Remah in favor of a more broad definition of חוקת הגויים.
Sorry, usually I understand you but this made no sense. You were the one who brought up the Rema. I never said standing in silence is assur. Nor do I think it's silly. It's exceedingly silly to pretend it has roots in וידם אהרן when it's clearly just a goyishe custom that the secular zionists adopted (sure, you can make up ramozim for anything). That doesn't mean it's not meaningful, many goyishe customs are meaningful.
You're being dishonest. No one has made the claims you write here. What RNS wrote was that "it even has conceptual roots in Judaism". He clearly reported the facts behind the origin of the custom. You falsely claim that someone has pretended that " it has roots in וידם אהרן ". No one made this claim.
You still don't understand the Remah. Once a custom is not under the forbidden three categories it is by definition not חוקת הגויים. No further defense is needed.
On the other hand, if your criteria is broader than the Remah's than you can still invoked the reasoning mentioned by RNS. (And it's not just RNS. See שו"ת בני בנים for more details there.)
" that the secular zionists adopted "
Another distortion. Many religious Zionists adopted it as well.
You're being dishonest. I never brought up the Rema, and never said it was חוקת הגויים. I was just noting how silly it is to say a custom that was taken straight from the goyim has conceptual roots in Judaism.
I had no idea the custom was just over a 100 years old and that it originated in South Africa. I'm about to go out of my home so as to stand in public at the sound of the 8pm siren.
Too many lives lost.
Reading Tehilim (part of Tanah) is a study of Torah if done with understanding
Most people say it like that though.
Every time you mention "pouring lead" is a fresh reminder of how little you know about the Charedi world. (To explain: What percent of Charedim do you think has actually ever "poured lead" - half of one percent? Less? More Americas per capita believe the moon landing was faked or the world is flat. As we dont say "Americans" believe this, we don't speak of pouring lead practiced by "Charedim.")
I think people just say Tehillim when they don't know what else to do . . .
"This is not the same as the actual reason why they do not stand for the siren, which is that they do not want to identify as part of Zionist society."
Indeed. Which is why none of the commenters with an opposing viewpoint have actually addressed the halachic arguments stated in this post.
Others are saying that the "halachic arguments stated in this post" are hardly ever, if ever at all, stated by those who oppose "them". What then is there to address?
As to avoid identifying with Zionism, I mention in my other comment above or below, this reasoning has made its way into the Halachic corpus.
רצונו של אדם זהו כבודו (ספר חסידים קנב ע"פ ירושלמי פאה א,א).
If that's what the soldiers wanted when they were alive, the least we can do is give it to them. You can read Tehillim the whole day long if you want, why do it just at that time?
"(Note that in this post I am just addressing the purported arguments that charedim give for not standing quietly during the siren. This is not the same as the actual reason why they do not stand for the siren, which is that they do not want to identify as part of Zionist society.)"
Funny, I've attended chareidi Yeshiva Ketana, Mesivta, Beis Medrash, Post BM Yeshivos, Kollelim, and shuls all my life. I've read Chareidi literature from pashkivilim to Jewish Observer for years, and I've heard thousands of hours of hashkafa shiurim in person and on recording from the full gamut of chareidi lecturers.
And the ONLY reasoning I've ever heard - and consistently hear - for specifically not standing for the siren is some version of not wanting to to identify with Zionistic society and their agenda laced institutions and rituals.
I guess Medrash Shmuel is somewhat of an outlier in this.
Either that or Natan finds it more convenient to make up realities which he feels he has a good comment on, than to actually try to comment on existing realities.
Vayidom Aharon is not a traditional Jewish response to tragedy. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Aharon was special, he was not allowed to express his pain, he needed to stay quiet and not express his pain.
Ramban writes quite clearly that the non-Jewish names of the months are used to fulfill a prophecy, not to follow the Goyim
@זכרון
Why do you assume that Aharon stood quiet because he was not allowed to express pain? I think a better hypothesis is that Aharon didn’t want to complain and thus become the object of Hashem’s wrath and come to the same end as his son’s did. After all who wants to wants to be roasted alive by a lightning bolt from Shamayim?
Why should he be roasted alive if he is doing nothing wrong?
Chazal tell us that it was a great deed of his that he overpowered his feelings for Hashem, and he was greatly rewarded for it.
@זכרון
Who said Aharon did something wrong? But my hypothesis is: if he were to complain, the fate that befell his sons might befall him too. That was my conjecture as to why he didn’t complain about his son’s merciless comeuppance. Mine is as good a conjecture as anyone else’s.
"Ramban writes quite clearly that the non-Jewish names of the months are used to fulfill a prophecy, not to follow the Goyim"
See מנחם כשר in תורה שלימה in the מילואים. He writes that since the names of the months were names of ע"ז, Chazal endeavored to sanitize them, by "Judaizing" them and giving them Jewish content. The addition of the siren, which invokes the shofar, can arguably be a fulfillment of this concept. (Again, according to the Rema, this is not necessary.)
"Vayidom Aharon is not a traditional Jewish response to tragedy. In fact, it is the exact opposite. "
שמחות ב:ח : אין בין שתיקה לבכיה כלום
נחלת יעקב: ר"ל אם שותקין האבלים הוי כמו בכיה
"Ramban writes quite clearly that the non-Jewish names of the months are used to fulfill a prophecy, not to follow the Goyim"
That's the point, isn't it? According to the Rema, a non-Jewish practice can be adopted if there's a good reason for it (and it's not implicitly idolatrous or pritzus). Standing silently for the siren, is not about imitating the gentiles. (By the way, I'm not aware of any other country that follows the Israeli practice. So it's not really following the gentiles, is it?)
I'm not aware of any chareidim who say Tehilim for those who passed on (besides the universal custom of saying specific Psalms at a funeral). What chareidim will do is study Torah in memory of the niftar.
Do they study Torah in the memory of the קדושים who defending the State? (Some do!)
Utter chutpah to take demand that the zionishe medinah financially support yeshivas & families but not to show hakorat hatov, especially to those who gave their lives. W/o the IDF, arab butchers would slaughter every chareidi as fast as every chiloni.
The issue is not the origin of standing silently for 2 minutes. The issue for many chareidim is who decided on the 2 minute standing. It is the same reason why very few charedim will say the Mi Shebairach L’Tzahal. I just don’t understand their reasoning. Is their hate for anything the Medina draws up stronger than their turning to Hashem to protect the IDF who is defending them? The idea that they will be protected no matter what b/c they sit and learn died in 1939.
Standing for the siren and thinking about the fallen is a good custom. I like it. It's not worth arguing about it and analysing who stands and who doesn't and why. It's a waste of time. Slifkin neither won nor lost this round. Let's honor the fallen and not argue who does and who doesn't. It's in bad taste.
"Of course, if I was in public, I would nevertheless stand in silence out of respect for others."
I can't speak about you personally, but I know many people tell themselves that they are "respecting others", when the reality is they just don't have the guts to do anything otherwise. As Ogden Nash put it in a poem, "Which is Mine - Tolerance or a Rubber Spine?"