Just curious. How the heck do you have time to be busy bantering about orthoprax justifications for Judaism to quiet your cognitive dissonance TWO DAYS BEFORE PESACH?? Does your wife know that you're spending time on this now and not helping out???
This whole series of posts is really sad. I'd like to believe that you still hold on to your faith deep down, but it's disheartening to witness you scraping the bottom of the barrel to find fringe benefits of living a wretched and conflicted life, all for the possibility of gaining an extra year in a nursing home. If one views Judaism as devoid of any meaning, and religiosity as "fluffy spirituality", then living a miserable, orthoprax lifestyle aint gonna gain him the alleged perks anyhow.
I have one major problem with this series: the studies on religion are based on people who actually believe. It is unlikely that these studies would apply for people who have no proof and merely want the benefits (such as orthoprax, otd itc etc). The negative effects of the cognitive dissonance that such people feel would probably outweigh any benefit. At the very least, one cannot extrapolate from these studies.
Therefore, using these benefits in lieu of proof is not only unlikely to work, it is also unlikely to be valid.
Yesterday I was having a discussion with Ash about if Chazal knew modern science. Today I am surprised to learn that Moshe Rabbeinu knew about the results of a 2018 study of obituaries in local Des Moines newspapers. In all seriousness, although Natan claims to have not found anything for Jews, there is research purporting to show that chareidim have longer lifespans than expected
Any1 who has ever lived frum knows that they suffer MORE than their fair share of bad things. Down's syndrome, smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity, and more. I do not envy their having more days in the living hell that they create.
In the Shema, we find a striking reward promised for observing the Torah: “Lemaan yirbu yemechem… So that your days shall be lengthened.” But does this really happen? Does Judaism lead to long life?
that is on the land. we will not be exiled if we focus on following the Mitzvot and doing the right thing to protect and defend ourselves. See Rambam letter to the sages of Marseille.
In the study Rabbi Slifkin posted it says that Religiosity of the city was a correlational factor,
“In highly religious cities, people who were not religiously affiliated had shorter life spans than those who were religiously affiliated. However, in less religious cities, nonreligiously affiliated people lived just as long as the religiously affiliated people.”
Also openness (where people were more accepting of everyone) of the city was an important factor.
“In more open cities…in the more religious cities, nonreligously affiliated people did not differ in longevity compared to religiously affiliated people, but in less religious cities religiously affiliated people outlived nonreligiously affiliated people.”
But in less open cities it was the opposite… in more religious cities, nonreligiously affiliated people had less longevity than religiously affiliated people but in less religious cities there was no difference.
The greatest factor in longevity is a social support system and good friends.
So my question is in light of social support and friendships being the most salient feature of longevity that crosses all other variables, and taking into account the study that Rabbi Slifkin posted, is it possible that the reason religiously affiliated people seem to live longer in some circumstances is that they have more opportunity to socialize and make friends because of the institutions they belong to give them more opportunity to meet others and form bonds and in more open religious cities, non-religious people aren’t as discriminated against so they have the opportunity to form friendships as well increasing their longevity, but in less open religious cities, the non religious are discriminated against or at least ostracized or shunned and so don’t have as much opportunity to make good friendships thus shortening their lives in the process? Remember In less open less religious cities there was no difference between religious and non religious longevities and in more open more religious cities, there was no difference in longevity either. What would be interesting to find out is whether there was a difference in longevity in general between less religious less open cites and more religious more open cities. I’m thinking that if less open less religious cities have less longevity than more open more religious cities, it would be because people are more open to making friends in more religious more open cities with less discrimination based on religiosity and less religious less open cities are just hard places to meet people in general.
So, I guess anyone here that thinks longevity is tied to religious belief has to account for the links to social support/friendships and city openess.
"These studies were for religion in general; I was unable to find any data specifically for Judaism. However, Israel is one of top ten countries in the world for life expectancy (at around 81 years for men and 85 for women)."
Slifkin implies that people live longer in Israel because Israel is a religious country.
Slifkin also believes Israel is mostly a secular country.
Slifkin also attacks any effort to increase religiosity in Israel.
I would like to believe this is true but the opposite of this is what? Non believers die young? And that's a pretty grim reality. If all you did was study the torah all day, then I'm sure avoiding the stresses of life other people experience would lead to a longer life. Then again, it's likely to be genetics that seal your fate.
It has certainly been proven that many humans are scum, those that grab away my parking spot on Erev Pesach, those that take the last box of macaroons from the shelf, those that kill random people for the sport, other republicans.
However, that may not be the case that all humans are scum. Further research is necessary.
(This is a parody of this miserable excuse of a post, that spends half of its word count on irrelevant nonsense about other religions and other countries. Then it pivots over to Israel with no actual data on religious beliefs or practices.)
WADR, I find this article inconsistent with most of Slifkin's thought. In general, he is not a fan of extolling any practical or scientific reasons to live frum. Rather, he generally posits that sincere frumkeit cannot be based on (unproven) benefits.
I am sorry to say that Slifkin generated this article to counter the (very unfair) charges that he is biased against the frum. At least, he now has 1 more article to counter-balance those ridiculous charges. I do not blame him---in politics, and this is politics, u have to survive to accomplish your goals.
Righteous life of moderation in biological needs, contemplation and performance of good deeds is conducive to longevity regardless of religion, or at least this is what I think.
Just curious. How the heck do you have time to be busy bantering about orthoprax justifications for Judaism to quiet your cognitive dissonance TWO DAYS BEFORE PESACH?? Does your wife know that you're spending time on this now and not helping out???
This whole series of posts is really sad. I'd like to believe that you still hold on to your faith deep down, but it's disheartening to witness you scraping the bottom of the barrel to find fringe benefits of living a wretched and conflicted life, all for the possibility of gaining an extra year in a nursing home. If one views Judaism as devoid of any meaning, and religiosity as "fluffy spirituality", then living a miserable, orthoprax lifestyle aint gonna gain him the alleged perks anyhow.
I have one major problem with this series: the studies on religion are based on people who actually believe. It is unlikely that these studies would apply for people who have no proof and merely want the benefits (such as orthoprax, otd itc etc). The negative effects of the cognitive dissonance that such people feel would probably outweigh any benefit. At the very least, one cannot extrapolate from these studies.
Therefore, using these benefits in lieu of proof is not only unlikely to work, it is also unlikely to be valid.
Yesterday I was having a discussion with Ash about if Chazal knew modern science. Today I am surprised to learn that Moshe Rabbeinu knew about the results of a 2018 study of obituaries in local Des Moines newspapers. In all seriousness, although Natan claims to have not found anything for Jews, there is research purporting to show that chareidim have longer lifespans than expected
https://www.taubcenter.org.il/en/research/live-long-and-prosper-health-in-the-haredi-community/
We already published Part 4 in the "Why Judaism?" series: "Why Pesach Cleaning?", on Irrationalist Modoxism.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-rationalist-approach-to-pesach
Israel has an excellent health care system, which can help increase life expectancy.
Any1 who has ever lived frum knows that they suffer MORE than their fair share of bad things. Down's syndrome, smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity, and more. I do not envy their having more days in the living hell that they create.
In the Shema, we find a striking reward promised for observing the Torah: “Lemaan yirbu yemechem… So that your days shall be lengthened.” But does this really happen? Does Judaism lead to long life?
that is on the land. we will not be exiled if we focus on following the Mitzvot and doing the right thing to protect and defend ourselves. See Rambam letter to the sages of Marseille.
In the study Rabbi Slifkin posted it says that Religiosity of the city was a correlational factor,
“In highly religious cities, people who were not religiously affiliated had shorter life spans than those who were religiously affiliated. However, in less religious cities, nonreligiously affiliated people lived just as long as the religiously affiliated people.”
Also openness (where people were more accepting of everyone) of the city was an important factor.
“In more open cities…in the more religious cities, nonreligously affiliated people did not differ in longevity compared to religiously affiliated people, but in less religious cities religiously affiliated people outlived nonreligiously affiliated people.”
But in less open cities it was the opposite… in more religious cities, nonreligiously affiliated people had less longevity than religiously affiliated people but in less religious cities there was no difference.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1948550618779820
In light of this latest study on longevity,
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/10/85-year-harvard-study-found-the-secret-to-a-long-happy-and-successful-life.html
And this
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.717164/full
The greatest factor in longevity is a social support system and good friends.
So my question is in light of social support and friendships being the most salient feature of longevity that crosses all other variables, and taking into account the study that Rabbi Slifkin posted, is it possible that the reason religiously affiliated people seem to live longer in some circumstances is that they have more opportunity to socialize and make friends because of the institutions they belong to give them more opportunity to meet others and form bonds and in more open religious cities, non-religious people aren’t as discriminated against so they have the opportunity to form friendships as well increasing their longevity, but in less open religious cities, the non religious are discriminated against or at least ostracized or shunned and so don’t have as much opportunity to make good friendships thus shortening their lives in the process? Remember In less open less religious cities there was no difference between religious and non religious longevities and in more open more religious cities, there was no difference in longevity either. What would be interesting to find out is whether there was a difference in longevity in general between less religious less open cites and more religious more open cities. I’m thinking that if less open less religious cities have less longevity than more open more religious cities, it would be because people are more open to making friends in more religious more open cities with less discrimination based on religiosity and less religious less open cities are just hard places to meet people in general.
So, I guess anyone here that thinks longevity is tied to religious belief has to account for the links to social support/friendships and city openess.
Can you get any data on religious versus non-religious Jews in Israel? That would better pinpoint the benefits of observing the Torah.
"These studies were for religion in general; I was unable to find any data specifically for Judaism. However, Israel is one of top ten countries in the world for life expectancy (at around 81 years for men and 85 for women)."
Slifkin implies that people live longer in Israel because Israel is a religious country.
Slifkin also believes Israel is mostly a secular country.
Slifkin also attacks any effort to increase religiosity in Israel.
What a piece of work.
I would like to believe this is true but the opposite of this is what? Non believers die young? And that's a pretty grim reality. If all you did was study the torah all day, then I'm sure avoiding the stresses of life other people experience would lead to a longer life. Then again, it's likely to be genetics that seal your fate.
.
LIfe expectancy depends alot on childhood mortality rates. A better measure is the Life Expectancy of say a 13 year old.
Nothing is "proven." U and I hold different opinions, that's all.
Question: Are humans scum?
It has certainly been proven that many humans are scum, those that grab away my parking spot on Erev Pesach, those that take the last box of macaroons from the shelf, those that kill random people for the sport, other republicans.
However, that may not be the case that all humans are scum. Further research is necessary.
(This is a parody of this miserable excuse of a post, that spends half of its word count on irrelevant nonsense about other religions and other countries. Then it pivots over to Israel with no actual data on religious beliefs or practices.)
WADR, I find this article inconsistent with most of Slifkin's thought. In general, he is not a fan of extolling any practical or scientific reasons to live frum. Rather, he generally posits that sincere frumkeit cannot be based on (unproven) benefits.
I am sorry to say that Slifkin generated this article to counter the (very unfair) charges that he is biased against the frum. At least, he now has 1 more article to counter-balance those ridiculous charges. I do not blame him---in politics, and this is politics, u have to survive to accomplish your goals.
Righteous life of moderation in biological needs, contemplation and performance of good deeds is conducive to longevity regardless of religion, or at least this is what I think.