Just curious. How the heck do you have time to be busy bantering about orthoprax justifications for Judaism to quiet your cognitive dissonance TWO DAYS BEFORE PESACH?? Does your wife know that you're spending time on this now and not helping out???
This whole series of posts is really sad. I'd like to believe that you still hold on to your faith deep down, but it's disheartening to witness you scraping the bottom of the barrel to find fringe benefits of living a wretched and conflicted life, all for the possibility of gaining an extra year in a nursing home. If one views Judaism as devoid of any meaning, and religiosity as "fluffy spirituality", then living a miserable, orthoprax lifestyle aint gonna gain him the alleged perks anyhow.
I'm not sure why you think that this post comprises the totality or the majority or even a remotely significant minority of my religious identity. I guess it's just part of your standard habit of trying to paint me in the worst possible light. I'm also not sure why you think that you know enough about my life to judge how I juggle my time. But in light of the fact that you are so concerned about time spent here, and you spend much more time here than I do (as well as your own blog), I'll remove your temptation by banning you for a while.
Not sure why everyone's flippin' out. To my understanding, Mecharker's intention in his second comment was not to accuse Rabbi Slifkin of orthopraxy. Rather, he seemed to retract his previous accusation and advise Rabbi Slifkin to be more mindful of the optics.
Like I've already said before, Slifkin is an eccentric and this is the reason he is misuderstood often. But ad hominium attacks are wrong regardless. Mates, either have a substantive discussion or don't comment.
I see no reason to accuse the author of orthopraxism when he has not made any clear indication of that. Let's try to argue cleanly and not jump into personal insults too quickly.
I have one major problem with this series: the studies on religion are based on people who actually believe. It is unlikely that these studies would apply for people who have no proof and merely want the benefits (such as orthoprax, otd itc etc). The negative effects of the cognitive dissonance that such people feel would probably outweigh any benefit. At the very least, one cannot extrapolate from these studies.
Therefore, using these benefits in lieu of proof is not only unlikely to work, it is also unlikely to be valid.
Fair point, but presumably NS was referring to people who are in fact religious, and not just pretending to be. (In other words, you're right that you can't win adherents to religion merely by highlighting its benefits; but the benefits sure are nice if you happen to already be religious.)
Any1 who has ever lived frum knows that they suffer MORE than their fair share of bad things. Down's syndrome, smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity, and more. I do not envy their having more days in the living hell that they create.
Wow, no kidding… although if Howard’s “frum” folks could manage to achieve longer lives *in spite* of “smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity” and genetic diseases, that would be quite a trick indeed…
In the Shema, we find a striking reward promised for observing the Torah: “Lemaan yirbu yemechem… So that your days shall be lengthened.” But does this really happen? Does Judaism lead to long life?
that is on the land. we will not be exiled if we focus on following the Mitzvot and doing the right thing to protect and defend ourselves. See Rambam letter to the sages of Marseille.
That would help validate the points made. Lumping all of "Israel" together as a homogenous population is useless when u r examining the benefit of a life-style, when the range of life-style varieties is so vast.
"These studies were for religion in general; I was unable to find any data specifically for Judaism. However, Israel is one of top ten countries in the world for life expectancy (at around 81 years for men and 85 for women)."
Slifkin implies that people live longer in Israel because Israel is a religious country.
Slifkin also believes Israel is mostly a secular country.
Slifkin also attacks any effort to increase religiosity in Israel.
You are free to disagree with me. However, if you persist in misrepresenting my positions (e.g. saying that I oppose all efforts to make people more religious), I will ban you.
What is misrepresented? I stated three things. You claim only the third is misrepresented? The first two alone show your inconsistency. If you don't like the word "all" in the third, then please clarify what efforts to increase religiosity you do support. Nothing from the government? So what about the mitzva to have courts enforcing Jewish law? What about the government imposing irreligiosity on society?
Stop making threats like a cornered child and respond like a "rationalist" adult.
I would like to believe this is true but the opposite of this is what? Non believers die young? And that's a pretty grim reality. If all you did was study the torah all day, then I'm sure avoiding the stresses of life other people experience would lead to a longer life. Then again, it's likely to be genetics that seal your fate.
WADR, I find this article inconsistent with most of Slifkin's thought. In general, he is not a fan of extolling any practical or scientific reasons to live frum. Rather, he generally posits that sincere frumkeit cannot be based on (unproven) benefits.
I am sorry to say that Slifkin generated this article to counter the (very unfair) charges that he is biased against the frum. At least, he now has 1 more article to counter-balance those ridiculous charges. I do not blame him---in politics, and this is politics, u have to survive to accomplish your goals.
If so many people don't understand you, maybe the problem is YOU not explaining yourself very well and on the rare occasions you respond to someone it's usually with something snarky or a threat to ban them. Not a very rationalist way to react, but when you try to pass yourself off as an orthodox rabbi and your main support comes from atheists, formerly frum, and cynical semi-frums, maybe silencing your critics is the best strategy at this point. You're a dumpster fire.
Maybe not. However, your position in this article is very at odds with what I usually expect from your philosophy. No, I do not think u r anti-haredi or anti-frum, though some of your opponents like to unfairly paint u that way.
I have never before seen u use such poor science to make a point, especially a point outside your usual position.
Righteous life of moderation in biological needs, contemplation and performance of good deeds is conducive to longevity regardless of religion, or at least this is what I think.
What it says is that as the outcome of keeping the commandments and learning Torah the Jewish nation as a whole will merit to inhabit the Land of Israel. It's not talking about the longevity of the individual members of the nation. Jewish history has proven it to be true.
Slifkin loses this round.
Oops, just reading the comments and I've noticed that David Gutman had said it already. שכויעח.
For what is is worth, none of these longevity studies account for all the very many other variables determining life span. E.g, hygiene, nutrition, access to education, and medical care.
Just curious. How the heck do you have time to be busy bantering about orthoprax justifications for Judaism to quiet your cognitive dissonance TWO DAYS BEFORE PESACH?? Does your wife know that you're spending time on this now and not helping out???
This whole series of posts is really sad. I'd like to believe that you still hold on to your faith deep down, but it's disheartening to witness you scraping the bottom of the barrel to find fringe benefits of living a wretched and conflicted life, all for the possibility of gaining an extra year in a nursing home. If one views Judaism as devoid of any meaning, and religiosity as "fluffy spirituality", then living a miserable, orthoprax lifestyle aint gonna gain him the alleged perks anyhow.
I'm not sure why you think that this post comprises the totality or the majority or even a remotely significant minority of my religious identity. I guess it's just part of your standard habit of trying to paint me in the worst possible light. I'm also not sure why you think that you know enough about my life to judge how I juggle my time. But in light of the fact that you are so concerned about time spent here, and you spend much more time here than I do (as well as your own blog), I'll remove your temptation by banning you for a while.
Why don't you try reading the introductory post more carefully. Meanwhile, goodbye, and chag sameach.
Not sure why everyone's flippin' out. To my understanding, Mecharker's intention in his second comment was not to accuse Rabbi Slifkin of orthopraxy. Rather, he seemed to retract his previous accusation and advise Rabbi Slifkin to be more mindful of the optics.
😂
The first part of the comment was a JOKE.
Like I've already said before, Slifkin is an eccentric and this is the reason he is misuderstood often. But ad hominium attacks are wrong regardless. Mates, either have a substantive discussion or don't comment.
I see no reason to accuse the author of orthopraxism when he has not made any clear indication of that. Let's try to argue cleanly and not jump into personal insults too quickly.
I have one major problem with this series: the studies on religion are based on people who actually believe. It is unlikely that these studies would apply for people who have no proof and merely want the benefits (such as orthoprax, otd itc etc). The negative effects of the cognitive dissonance that such people feel would probably outweigh any benefit. At the very least, one cannot extrapolate from these studies.
Therefore, using these benefits in lieu of proof is not only unlikely to work, it is also unlikely to be valid.
Fair point, but presumably NS was referring to people who are in fact religious, and not just pretending to be. (In other words, you're right that you can't win adherents to religion merely by highlighting its benefits; but the benefits sure are nice if you happen to already be religious.)
Israel has an excellent health care system, which can help increase life expectancy.
Any1 who has ever lived frum knows that they suffer MORE than their fair share of bad things. Down's syndrome, smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity, and more. I do not envy their having more days in the living hell that they create.
You seem to have a very specific definition of "frum."
Wow, no kidding… although if Howard’s “frum” folks could manage to achieve longer lives *in spite* of “smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity” and genetic diseases, that would be quite a trick indeed…
Not really, but I was referring to the frum and MO worlds, which I know best. I really cannot address Zoroastrians or Zen Buddhists.
Because only Jews have those problems...
Look, of course everybody, Jew and non-Jew, dies eventually. The point of this article is whether it is sooner or later for some populations.
In the Shema, we find a striking reward promised for observing the Torah: “Lemaan yirbu yemechem… So that your days shall be lengthened.” But does this really happen? Does Judaism lead to long life?
that is on the land. we will not be exiled if we focus on following the Mitzvot and doing the right thing to protect and defend ourselves. See Rambam letter to the sages of Marseille.
Can you get any data on religious versus non-religious Jews in Israel? That would better pinpoint the benefits of observing the Torah.
That would help validate the points made. Lumping all of "Israel" together as a homogenous population is useless when u r examining the benefit of a life-style, when the range of life-style varieties is so vast.
"These studies were for religion in general; I was unable to find any data specifically for Judaism. However, Israel is one of top ten countries in the world for life expectancy (at around 81 years for men and 85 for women)."
Slifkin implies that people live longer in Israel because Israel is a religious country.
Slifkin also believes Israel is mostly a secular country.
Slifkin also attacks any effort to increase religiosity in Israel.
What a piece of work.
You are free to disagree with me. However, if you persist in misrepresenting my positions (e.g. saying that I oppose all efforts to make people more religious), I will ban you.
Woo, look who's threatening bans.
What is misrepresented? I stated three things. You claim only the third is misrepresented? The first two alone show your inconsistency. If you don't like the word "all" in the third, then please clarify what efforts to increase religiosity you do support. Nothing from the government? So what about the mitzva to have courts enforcing Jewish law? What about the government imposing irreligiosity on society?
Stop making threats like a cornered child and respond like a "rationalist" adult.
You should be banned for apikorsus and misrepresenting the Torah. Wait, never mind.
You mistake a country having an official religion with a government mandate. Those things are not the same.
The Torah mandates a court system that enforces Torah law. I guess you know better than God.
Please continue and tell us what knowledge the Torah mandates of judges of said court.
You're really nuts. This isn't even worth a response.
I would like to believe this is true but the opposite of this is what? Non believers die young? And that's a pretty grim reality. If all you did was study the torah all day, then I'm sure avoiding the stresses of life other people experience would lead to a longer life. Then again, it's likely to be genetics that seal your fate.
In Israel, avoiding the hazards in the IDF will certainly lengthen your years. Draft-dodging haredim generally do not die in their 20's.
.
LIfe expectancy depends alot on childhood mortality rates. A better measure is the Life Expectancy of say a 13 year old.
Nothing is "proven." U and I hold different opinions, that's all.
WADR, I find this article inconsistent with most of Slifkin's thought. In general, he is not a fan of extolling any practical or scientific reasons to live frum. Rather, he generally posits that sincere frumkeit cannot be based on (unproven) benefits.
I am sorry to say that Slifkin generated this article to counter the (very unfair) charges that he is biased against the frum. At least, he now has 1 more article to counter-balance those ridiculous charges. I do not blame him---in politics, and this is politics, u have to survive to accomplish your goals.
Gosh, you really don't understand me.
If so many people don't understand you, maybe the problem is YOU not explaining yourself very well and on the rare occasions you respond to someone it's usually with something snarky or a threat to ban them. Not a very rationalist way to react, but when you try to pass yourself off as an orthodox rabbi and your main support comes from atheists, formerly frum, and cynical semi-frums, maybe silencing your critics is the best strategy at this point. You're a dumpster fire.
Maybe not. However, your position in this article is very at odds with what I usually expect from your philosophy. No, I do not think u r anti-haredi or anti-frum, though some of your opponents like to unfairly paint u that way.
I have never before seen u use such poor science to make a point, especially a point outside your usual position.
Righteous life of moderation in biological needs, contemplation and performance of good deeds is conducive to longevity regardless of religion, or at least this is what I think.
I know, this is what I think.
לְמַעַן יִרְבּוּ יְמֵיכֶם וִימֵי בְנֵיכֶם עַל הָאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר נִשְׁבַּע יְהֹוָה לַאֲבֹתֵיכֶם לָתֵת לָהֶם, כִּימֵי הַשָּׁמַיִם עַל הָאָרֶץ.
What it says is that as the outcome of keeping the commandments and learning Torah the Jewish nation as a whole will merit to inhabit the Land of Israel. It's not talking about the longevity of the individual members of the nation. Jewish history has proven it to be true.
Slifkin loses this round.
Oops, just reading the comments and I've noticed that David Gutman had said it already. שכויעח.
For what is is worth, none of these longevity studies account for all the very many other variables determining life span. E.g, hygiene, nutrition, access to education, and medical care.
Rabbi, when you write that religious folks lived an “extra 5.xx years” longer, what was the reference group?
Just read its abstract. Even the abstract alone set off my epidemiologist alarms with regard to making any broad claims 😬