Just curious. How the heck do you have time to be busy bantering about orthoprax justifications for Judaism to quiet your cognitive dissonance TWO DAYS BEFORE PESACH?? Does your wife know that you're spending time on this now and not helping out???
This whole series of posts is really sad. I'd like to believe that you still hold on to your faith deep down, but it's disheartening to witness you scraping the bottom of the barrel to find fringe benefits of living a wretched and conflicted life, all for the possibility of gaining an extra year in a nursing home. If one views Judaism as devoid of any meaning, and religiosity as "fluffy spirituality", then living a miserable, orthoprax lifestyle aint gonna gain him the alleged perks anyhow.
I'm not sure why you think that this post comprises the totality or the majority or even a remotely significant minority of my religious identity. I guess it's just part of your standard habit of trying to paint me in the worst possible light. I'm also not sure why you think that you know enough about my life to judge how I juggle my time. But in light of the fact that you are so concerned about time spent here, and you spend much more time here than I do (as well as your own blog), I'll remove your temptation by banning you for a while.
Not sure why everyone's flippin' out. To my understanding, Mecharker's intention in his second comment was not to accuse Rabbi Slifkin of orthopraxy. Rather, he seemed to retract his previous accusation and advise Rabbi Slifkin to be more mindful of the optics.
Like I've already said before, Slifkin is an eccentric and this is the reason he is misuderstood often. But ad hominium attacks are wrong regardless. Mates, either have a substantive discussion or don't comment.
I see no reason to accuse the author of orthopraxism when he has not made any clear indication of that. Let's try to argue cleanly and not jump into personal insults too quickly.
I have one major problem with this series: the studies on religion are based on people who actually believe. It is unlikely that these studies would apply for people who have no proof and merely want the benefits (such as orthoprax, otd itc etc). The negative effects of the cognitive dissonance that such people feel would probably outweigh any benefit. At the very least, one cannot extrapolate from these studies.
Therefore, using these benefits in lieu of proof is not only unlikely to work, it is also unlikely to be valid.
This is a manifestation of the issue I mentioned in another comment. There is really no such thing as a Christian atheist. The typical religiosity scale can't handle the concept of someone who doesn't believe but still observes. It doesn't fit within the paradigm of the Christian religious environment in which most of this methodology was developed.
Fair point, but presumably NS was referring to people who are in fact religious, and not just pretending to be. (In other words, you're right that you can't win adherents to religion merely by highlighting its benefits; but the benefits sure are nice if you happen to already be religious.)
Yesterday I was having a discussion with Ash about if Chazal knew modern science. Today I am surprised to learn that Moshe Rabbeinu knew about the results of a 2018 study of obituaries in local Des Moines newspapers. In all seriousness, although Natan claims to have not found anything for Jews, there is research purporting to show that chareidim have longer lifespans than expected
So first you claim that it is wrong to present scientific evidence for the benefits of religion, and then you present scientific evidence for the benefits of being charedi!
Unsurprisingly you missed out the key caveat '...than would be expected given these cities’ low socioeconomic status...'. So yes, compared to the slums of sao paolo, but that isn't saying that much....
Any1 who has ever lived frum knows that they suffer MORE than their fair share of bad things. Down's syndrome, smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity, and more. I do not envy their having more days in the living hell that they create.
Wow, no kidding… although if Howard’s “frum” folks could manage to achieve longer lives *in spite* of “smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity” and genetic diseases, that would be quite a trick indeed…
In the Shema, we find a striking reward promised for observing the Torah: “Lemaan yirbu yemechem… So that your days shall be lengthened.” But does this really happen? Does Judaism lead to long life?
that is on the land. we will not be exiled if we focus on following the Mitzvot and doing the right thing to protect and defend ourselves. See Rambam letter to the sages of Marseille.
In the study Rabbi Slifkin posted it says that Religiosity of the city was a correlational factor,
“In highly religious cities, people who were not religiously affiliated had shorter life spans than those who were religiously affiliated. However, in less religious cities, nonreligiously affiliated people lived just as long as the religiously affiliated people.”
Also openness (where people were more accepting of everyone) of the city was an important factor.
“In more open cities…in the more religious cities, nonreligously affiliated people did not differ in longevity compared to religiously affiliated people, but in less religious cities religiously affiliated people outlived nonreligiously affiliated people.”
But in less open cities it was the opposite… in more religious cities, nonreligiously affiliated people had less longevity than religiously affiliated people but in less religious cities there was no difference.
The greatest factor in longevity is a social support system and good friends.
So my question is in light of social support and friendships being the most salient feature of longevity that crosses all other variables, and taking into account the study that Rabbi Slifkin posted, is it possible that the reason religiously affiliated people seem to live longer in some circumstances is that they have more opportunity to socialize and make friends because of the institutions they belong to give them more opportunity to meet others and form bonds and in more open religious cities, non-religious people aren’t as discriminated against so they have the opportunity to form friendships as well increasing their longevity, but in less open religious cities, the non religious are discriminated against or at least ostracized or shunned and so don’t have as much opportunity to make good friendships thus shortening their lives in the process? Remember In less open less religious cities there was no difference between religious and non religious longevities and in more open more religious cities, there was no difference in longevity either. What would be interesting to find out is whether there was a difference in longevity in general between less religious less open cites and more religious more open cities. I’m thinking that if less open less religious cities have less longevity than more open more religious cities, it would be because people are more open to making friends in more religious more open cities with less discrimination based on religiosity and less religious less open cities are just hard places to meet people in general.
So, I guess anyone here that thinks longevity is tied to religious belief has to account for the links to social support/friendships and city openess.
That would help validate the points made. Lumping all of "Israel" together as a homogenous population is useless when u r examining the benefit of a life-style, when the range of life-style varieties is so vast.
"These studies were for religion in general; I was unable to find any data specifically for Judaism. However, Israel is one of top ten countries in the world for life expectancy (at around 81 years for men and 85 for women)."
Slifkin implies that people live longer in Israel because Israel is a religious country.
Slifkin also believes Israel is mostly a secular country.
Slifkin also attacks any effort to increase religiosity in Israel.
You are free to disagree with me. However, if you persist in misrepresenting my positions (e.g. saying that I oppose all efforts to make people more religious), I will ban you.
What is misrepresented? I stated three things. You claim only the third is misrepresented? The first two alone show your inconsistency. If you don't like the word "all" in the third, then please clarify what efforts to increase religiosity you do support. Nothing from the government? So what about the mitzva to have courts enforcing Jewish law? What about the government imposing irreligiosity on society?
Stop making threats like a cornered child and respond like a "rationalist" adult.
When has anyone ever become more religious because of a government mandate?
Denmark has an official state church. 2.4% of members attend services on a typical Sunday. England has an official state church and its attendance is even lower.
Ah so you want to execute all Sabbath violators. Reduce the Jewish population of Israel by 80%. Complete what the German rasha may his name be blotted out couldn't do. And most of the remainder won't serve in the military. The Arab rashaim will massacre the remnant, completing the work of the evil German.
Millions of Christians died in the 16th and 17th centuries in religious wars in Europe. Christianity has never recovered. All the leaders of the warring armies thought that they were doing God's will.
That’s nuts? But you said you want the government to enforce the Torah. Explain Bamidbar 15:32-36 and Shemot 31:14? Ok so since medieval times Jewish courts don’t enforce the death penalty, but they’ve not had control of the state government before either. Orthodox people have been pushing their authority in other areas that traditionally they didn’t like wearing blue tzitzis, praying on the Temple Mount, attempting to breed red heifers, etc. Where would the slippery slope go? Mandatory closure of all businesses, no traffic on any roads, checking people’s homes to see if they are keeping Shabbat? How to enforce it? Financial penalties? Flogging and pillory as in the Middle Ages?
I would like to believe this is true but the opposite of this is what? Non believers die young? And that's a pretty grim reality. If all you did was study the torah all day, then I'm sure avoiding the stresses of life other people experience would lead to a longer life. Then again, it's likely to be genetics that seal your fate.
It has certainly been proven that many humans are scum, those that grab away my parking spot on Erev Pesach, those that take the last box of macaroons from the shelf, those that kill random people for the sport, other republicans.
However, that may not be the case that all humans are scum. Further research is necessary.
(This is a parody of this miserable excuse of a post, that spends half of its word count on irrelevant nonsense about other religions and other countries. Then it pivots over to Israel with no actual data on religious beliefs or practices.)
WADR, I find this article inconsistent with most of Slifkin's thought. In general, he is not a fan of extolling any practical or scientific reasons to live frum. Rather, he generally posits that sincere frumkeit cannot be based on (unproven) benefits.
I am sorry to say that Slifkin generated this article to counter the (very unfair) charges that he is biased against the frum. At least, he now has 1 more article to counter-balance those ridiculous charges. I do not blame him---in politics, and this is politics, u have to survive to accomplish your goals.
If so many people don't understand you, maybe the problem is YOU not explaining yourself very well and on the rare occasions you respond to someone it's usually with something snarky or a threat to ban them. Not a very rationalist way to react, but when you try to pass yourself off as an orthodox rabbi and your main support comes from atheists, formerly frum, and cynical semi-frums, maybe silencing your critics is the best strategy at this point. You're a dumpster fire.
Maybe not. However, your position in this article is very at odds with what I usually expect from your philosophy. No, I do not think u r anti-haredi or anti-frum, though some of your opponents like to unfairly paint u that way.
I have never before seen u use such poor science to make a point, especially a point outside your usual position.
Actually the studies that he references and posted were done well. I took the time to read them. However there are more recent studies (2021 and 2023 that show that having a social support system and close friends goes across all other variables including religion. I posted them in my comment that I wrote today (see above). The most salient study the good Rabbi posted (I also reposted in my comment) qualified itself by stating that religious people outlive non religious only in certain circumstances having to do with the cities in which they live. Those variables involved the religiosity of the city with the openess of the city (acceptance of others outside of their own groups). Seems that there is no difference in life expectancy in more open, more religious cities as well as in less open less religious cities. Religious people outlive the non-religious in less open more religious cities and more open, less religious cities.
It’s my guess is that since friendships are the overarching explanation for longevity in all studies that look at that variable, and since religious institutions are ubiquitous, while there are no institutions for non-religious people to gather regularly, those who attend religious institutions have more opportunities to meet and form close friendships. In open cities (I’m thinking higher amounts of liberal churches and synagogues) the non-religious are more accepted by the religiously affiliated while in more religious less open cities religious people are less likely to make friends with the non-religious lessening non religiously affiliated chances of making friends.
Righteous life of moderation in biological needs, contemplation and performance of good deeds is conducive to longevity regardless of religion, or at least this is what I think.
That’s not what the study that Rabbi Slifkin posted says. In some circumstances, there is no difference between longevity between the religiously affiliated and the non-religious having to do with certain combinations of the city’s religiosity combined with the openess of the city (the willingness of residents to accept others regardless of who they are).
Just curious. How the heck do you have time to be busy bantering about orthoprax justifications for Judaism to quiet your cognitive dissonance TWO DAYS BEFORE PESACH?? Does your wife know that you're spending time on this now and not helping out???
This whole series of posts is really sad. I'd like to believe that you still hold on to your faith deep down, but it's disheartening to witness you scraping the bottom of the barrel to find fringe benefits of living a wretched and conflicted life, all for the possibility of gaining an extra year in a nursing home. If one views Judaism as devoid of any meaning, and religiosity as "fluffy spirituality", then living a miserable, orthoprax lifestyle aint gonna gain him the alleged perks anyhow.
I'm not sure why you think that this post comprises the totality or the majority or even a remotely significant minority of my religious identity. I guess it's just part of your standard habit of trying to paint me in the worst possible light. I'm also not sure why you think that you know enough about my life to judge how I juggle my time. But in light of the fact that you are so concerned about time spent here, and you spend much more time here than I do (as well as your own blog), I'll remove your temptation by banning you for a while.
Why don't you try reading the introductory post more carefully. Meanwhile, goodbye, and chag sameach.
If this (https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/why-judaism) is the post, I read it again. I too am at a loss.
Not sure why everyone's flippin' out. To my understanding, Mecharker's intention in his second comment was not to accuse Rabbi Slifkin of orthopraxy. Rather, he seemed to retract his previous accusation and advise Rabbi Slifkin to be more mindful of the optics.
😂
The first part of the comment was a JOKE.
Like I've already said before, Slifkin is an eccentric and this is the reason he is misuderstood often. But ad hominium attacks are wrong regardless. Mates, either have a substantive discussion or don't comment.
I see no reason to accuse the author of orthopraxism when he has not made any clear indication of that. Let's try to argue cleanly and not jump into personal insults too quickly.
I have one major problem with this series: the studies on religion are based on people who actually believe. It is unlikely that these studies would apply for people who have no proof and merely want the benefits (such as orthoprax, otd itc etc). The negative effects of the cognitive dissonance that such people feel would probably outweigh any benefit. At the very least, one cannot extrapolate from these studies.
Therefore, using these benefits in lieu of proof is not only unlikely to work, it is also unlikely to be valid.
This is a manifestation of the issue I mentioned in another comment. There is really no such thing as a Christian atheist. The typical religiosity scale can't handle the concept of someone who doesn't believe but still observes. It doesn't fit within the paradigm of the Christian religious environment in which most of this methodology was developed.
Fair point, but presumably NS was referring to people who are in fact religious, and not just pretending to be. (In other words, you're right that you can't win adherents to religion merely by highlighting its benefits; but the benefits sure are nice if you happen to already be religious.)
Yesterday I was having a discussion with Ash about if Chazal knew modern science. Today I am surprised to learn that Moshe Rabbeinu knew about the results of a 2018 study of obituaries in local Des Moines newspapers. In all seriousness, although Natan claims to have not found anything for Jews, there is research purporting to show that chareidim have longer lifespans than expected
https://www.taubcenter.org.il/en/research/live-long-and-prosper-health-in-the-haredi-community/
We already published Part 4 in the "Why Judaism?" series: "Why Pesach Cleaning?", on Irrationalist Modoxism.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-rationalist-approach-to-pesach
So first you claim that it is wrong to present scientific evidence for the benefits of religion, and then you present scientific evidence for the benefits of being charedi!
Y'got me. I surrender
And the reason is given....social capital......nothing to do with mitzvos.
Unsurprisingly you missed out the key caveat '...than would be expected given these cities’ low socioeconomic status...'. So yes, compared to the slums of sao paolo, but that isn't saying that much....
Lol
Israel has an excellent health care system, which can help increase life expectancy.
Naw, it must have to do with religious belief. 🤦♂️
Any1 who has ever lived frum knows that they suffer MORE than their fair share of bad things. Down's syndrome, smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity, and more. I do not envy their having more days in the living hell that they create.
You seem to have a very specific definition of "frum."
Wow, no kidding… although if Howard’s “frum” folks could manage to achieve longer lives *in spite* of “smoking, inactivity, hypertension, obesity” and genetic diseases, that would be quite a trick indeed…
How do people 'suffer' from smoking? I am sure they enjoy it.
Maybe they suffer from illness due to smoking, but nobody expects Schranz to understand the distinction.
And how do frum people suffer from Down's Syndrome? Why more than other societies? Because they don't abort them, that's all.
Not really, but I was referring to the frum and MO worlds, which I know best. I really cannot address Zoroastrians or Zen Buddhists.
Because only Jews have those problems...
Look, of course everybody, Jew and non-Jew, dies eventually. The point of this article is whether it is sooner or later for some populations.
In the Shema, we find a striking reward promised for observing the Torah: “Lemaan yirbu yemechem… So that your days shall be lengthened.” But does this really happen? Does Judaism lead to long life?
that is on the land. we will not be exiled if we focus on following the Mitzvot and doing the right thing to protect and defend ourselves. See Rambam letter to the sages of Marseille.
In the study Rabbi Slifkin posted it says that Religiosity of the city was a correlational factor,
“In highly religious cities, people who were not religiously affiliated had shorter life spans than those who were religiously affiliated. However, in less religious cities, nonreligiously affiliated people lived just as long as the religiously affiliated people.”
Also openness (where people were more accepting of everyone) of the city was an important factor.
“In more open cities…in the more religious cities, nonreligously affiliated people did not differ in longevity compared to religiously affiliated people, but in less religious cities religiously affiliated people outlived nonreligiously affiliated people.”
But in less open cities it was the opposite… in more religious cities, nonreligiously affiliated people had less longevity than religiously affiliated people but in less religious cities there was no difference.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1948550618779820
In light of this latest study on longevity,
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/10/85-year-harvard-study-found-the-secret-to-a-long-happy-and-successful-life.html
And this
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.717164/full
The greatest factor in longevity is a social support system and good friends.
So my question is in light of social support and friendships being the most salient feature of longevity that crosses all other variables, and taking into account the study that Rabbi Slifkin posted, is it possible that the reason religiously affiliated people seem to live longer in some circumstances is that they have more opportunity to socialize and make friends because of the institutions they belong to give them more opportunity to meet others and form bonds and in more open religious cities, non-religious people aren’t as discriminated against so they have the opportunity to form friendships as well increasing their longevity, but in less open religious cities, the non religious are discriminated against or at least ostracized or shunned and so don’t have as much opportunity to make good friendships thus shortening their lives in the process? Remember In less open less religious cities there was no difference between religious and non religious longevities and in more open more religious cities, there was no difference in longevity either. What would be interesting to find out is whether there was a difference in longevity in general between less religious less open cites and more religious more open cities. I’m thinking that if less open less religious cities have less longevity than more open more religious cities, it would be because people are more open to making friends in more religious more open cities with less discrimination based on religiosity and less religious less open cities are just hard places to meet people in general.
So, I guess anyone here that thinks longevity is tied to religious belief has to account for the links to social support/friendships and city openess.
Can you get any data on religious versus non-religious Jews in Israel? That would better pinpoint the benefits of observing the Torah.
That would help validate the points made. Lumping all of "Israel" together as a homogenous population is useless when u r examining the benefit of a life-style, when the range of life-style varieties is so vast.
"These studies were for religion in general; I was unable to find any data specifically for Judaism. However, Israel is one of top ten countries in the world for life expectancy (at around 81 years for men and 85 for women)."
Slifkin implies that people live longer in Israel because Israel is a religious country.
Slifkin also believes Israel is mostly a secular country.
Slifkin also attacks any effort to increase religiosity in Israel.
What a piece of work.
You are free to disagree with me. However, if you persist in misrepresenting my positions (e.g. saying that I oppose all efforts to make people more religious), I will ban you.
Woo, look who's threatening bans.
What is misrepresented? I stated three things. You claim only the third is misrepresented? The first two alone show your inconsistency. If you don't like the word "all" in the third, then please clarify what efforts to increase religiosity you do support. Nothing from the government? So what about the mitzva to have courts enforcing Jewish law? What about the government imposing irreligiosity on society?
Stop making threats like a cornered child and respond like a "rationalist" adult.
You should be banned for apikorsus and misrepresenting the Torah. Wait, never mind.
When has anyone ever become more religious because of a government mandate?
Denmark has an official state church. 2.4% of members attend services on a typical Sunday. England has an official state church and its attendance is even lower.
You mistake a country having an official religion with a government mandate. Those things are not the same.
The Torah mandates a court system that enforces Torah law. I guess you know better than God.
Please continue and tell us what knowledge the Torah mandates of judges of said court.
Ah so you want to execute all Sabbath violators. Reduce the Jewish population of Israel by 80%. Complete what the German rasha may his name be blotted out couldn't do. And most of the remainder won't serve in the military. The Arab rashaim will massacre the remnant, completing the work of the evil German.
Millions of Christians died in the 16th and 17th centuries in religious wars in Europe. Christianity has never recovered. All the leaders of the warring armies thought that they were doing God's will.
You're really nuts. This isn't even worth a response.
That’s nuts? But you said you want the government to enforce the Torah. Explain Bamidbar 15:32-36 and Shemot 31:14? Ok so since medieval times Jewish courts don’t enforce the death penalty, but they’ve not had control of the state government before either. Orthodox people have been pushing their authority in other areas that traditionally they didn’t like wearing blue tzitzis, praying on the Temple Mount, attempting to breed red heifers, etc. Where would the slippery slope go? Mandatory closure of all businesses, no traffic on any roads, checking people’s homes to see if they are keeping Shabbat? How to enforce it? Financial penalties? Flogging and pillory as in the Middle Ages?
I would like to believe this is true but the opposite of this is what? Non believers die young? And that's a pretty grim reality. If all you did was study the torah all day, then I'm sure avoiding the stresses of life other people experience would lead to a longer life. Then again, it's likely to be genetics that seal your fate.
In Israel, avoiding the hazards in the IDF will certainly lengthen your years. Draft-dodging haredim generally do not die in their 20's.
.
YES! That is the SMARTEST comment on this thread. Congratulations!
LIfe expectancy depends alot on childhood mortality rates. A better measure is the Life Expectancy of say a 13 year old.
Nothing is "proven." U and I hold different opinions, that's all.
Question: Are humans scum?
It has certainly been proven that many humans are scum, those that grab away my parking spot on Erev Pesach, those that take the last box of macaroons from the shelf, those that kill random people for the sport, other republicans.
However, that may not be the case that all humans are scum. Further research is necessary.
(This is a parody of this miserable excuse of a post, that spends half of its word count on irrelevant nonsense about other religions and other countries. Then it pivots over to Israel with no actual data on religious beliefs or practices.)
WADR, I find this article inconsistent with most of Slifkin's thought. In general, he is not a fan of extolling any practical or scientific reasons to live frum. Rather, he generally posits that sincere frumkeit cannot be based on (unproven) benefits.
I am sorry to say that Slifkin generated this article to counter the (very unfair) charges that he is biased against the frum. At least, he now has 1 more article to counter-balance those ridiculous charges. I do not blame him---in politics, and this is politics, u have to survive to accomplish your goals.
Gosh, you really don't understand me.
If so many people don't understand you, maybe the problem is YOU not explaining yourself very well and on the rare occasions you respond to someone it's usually with something snarky or a threat to ban them. Not a very rationalist way to react, but when you try to pass yourself off as an orthodox rabbi and your main support comes from atheists, formerly frum, and cynical semi-frums, maybe silencing your critics is the best strategy at this point. You're a dumpster fire.
Maybe not. However, your position in this article is very at odds with what I usually expect from your philosophy. No, I do not think u r anti-haredi or anti-frum, though some of your opponents like to unfairly paint u that way.
I have never before seen u use such poor science to make a point, especially a point outside your usual position.
Actually the studies that he references and posted were done well. I took the time to read them. However there are more recent studies (2021 and 2023 that show that having a social support system and close friends goes across all other variables including religion. I posted them in my comment that I wrote today (see above). The most salient study the good Rabbi posted (I also reposted in my comment) qualified itself by stating that religious people outlive non religious only in certain circumstances having to do with the cities in which they live. Those variables involved the religiosity of the city with the openess of the city (acceptance of others outside of their own groups). Seems that there is no difference in life expectancy in more open, more religious cities as well as in less open less religious cities. Religious people outlive the non-religious in less open more religious cities and more open, less religious cities.
It’s my guess is that since friendships are the overarching explanation for longevity in all studies that look at that variable, and since religious institutions are ubiquitous, while there are no institutions for non-religious people to gather regularly, those who attend religious institutions have more opportunities to meet and form close friendships. In open cities (I’m thinking higher amounts of liberal churches and synagogues) the non-religious are more accepted by the religiously affiliated while in more religious less open cities religious people are less likely to make friends with the non-religious lessening non religiously affiliated chances of making friends.
Righteous life of moderation in biological needs, contemplation and performance of good deeds is conducive to longevity regardless of religion, or at least this is what I think.
That’s not what the study that Rabbi Slifkin posted says. In some circumstances, there is no difference between longevity between the religiously affiliated and the non-religious having to do with certain combinations of the city’s religiosity combined with the openess of the city (the willingness of residents to accept others regardless of who they are).
I know, this is what I think.