I really appreciate your "all of Israel" feeling, your concern that it will be very difficult here if the ultra-Orthodox don't mobilize. Everyone has the same feeling and the same concern. But, I long ago stopped referring to them as part of the people of Israel. why? (1) Because they compare themselves to Arabs who are not part of the People of Israel: "Why do you demand that we enlist and not the Arabs"? (2) Because according to the N12 investigation, only 5-15% of ultra-Orthodox men study 12/6 and the rest is a money industry and fraud by Yeshiva leaders and kollels. So there is nothing here related to learning Torah. It is about the lack of any feeling in the face of raped women, murdered men, captives and one hundred and fifty thousand people who were expelled from their homes and their jobs in the communities on the border of Lebanon and Gaza (3) because they refer to religious-nationalists as "Gentiles", "Amalek" and "Arab Rav" and studying the Torah of the Gentiles It is nothing but forbidden Torah study because a Gentile is not allowed to study Torah. (4) The cries in the ultra-Orthodox press and ultra-Orthodox blogs these weeks are: "The end of Judaism"! "The end of Israel", "the end of the Torah", "the war of annihilation against the Jews"! - All this, because in the eyes of the "Orthodox", we are not Jews...
The Netziv was writing in a different time where he imagined those studying Torah full time were regular members of society that somehow had an income, perhaps from property ownership, that enabled them to live while studying. He could not have envisaged a whole class of people who would be able to live like this by surviving off govt benefits and not earning a living because such a concept didn't exist in his day. He probably would have disapproved if he had known, given all the prohibitions concerning not earning a living and living off charity.
But it wouldn't work today as you can't pay higher taxes if you pay little or no taxes to begin with, earn no income and are a net beneficiary from the govt. And they also believe they are performing the highest form of national service by learning.
The Netziv predates Zionism being a community-defining issue. He was Zionist (by most definitions). And yet Volozhin's segan Rosh Yeshiva, R Chaim Brisker, was very much not. The latter's influence on today's Yeshivish is far greater. "The Netziv operates from a value system that is as charedi as you can get" isn't true for what "Chareidi" has meant since it was transplanted out of Europe. You might as well tell today's Chareidim to follow the plan of the Netzvi's talmid, R AY Kook.
You know very well that it boils down to the gedolim. The gedolim will disagree with you; end of story. The govt needs to defund institutions that support this mindset and cut funding to charedi causes. They also need to provide incentives to people who serve. There will be much less resentment that way.
"Incidentally, I’ve always found it strange that charedim conveniently sometimes compare themselves to Yissachar, and at other times compare themselves to Levi."
That's because שבט לוי gets exemption from the army (for a מלחמת רשות) and שבט יששכר is supported by שבט זבולון. I've recently provided sources from the כתב/חתם סופר and אהרן קוטלר that these two types of Torah scholars are distinct. One can't be both. One can't claim exemption from the army as a "honorary" member of שבט לוי and at the same time, demand money as an "honorary" member of שבט יששכר.
Netziv worked with a scenario where the nation and the king and the army all kept the Torah. A leader like David was always asking the sanhedrin about how to act, not secular political "leaders".
Netziv certainly would not approve of drafting girls into the army! He would be very angry about sexual misconduct in the army, which presents serious challenges to soldiers. Why dont you speak to this issue at length in your next piece instead of dodging it?
I recall you responding some months ago that you first have to discuss certain issues and will then discuss this. Of-course you never did. No blog about halacha and the army and the many pitfalls because you know you will lose. Shame on you.
Not such a fan of this "gotcha". Historically, something close to this is in fact how things often worked, in countries where there was a draft: Rich people got their sons out of the draft by paying money to government officials, or by sending them to school. I don't think chareidim would mind this too much, they'd probably raise money from rich donors for this.
As for implementing something like "Torah Study Brigades" at the front lines of war, this would be extremely impractical, quite dangerous, and not something that anyone would have any interest in facilitating.
Technical: The hyperlink in " fleeing during war" is to a Jpost article about Obama. I assume this is a mistake?
I agree with the article, but this line "presumably either because the protective force of Torah is geographically concentrated" is unnecessary snark, with all due respect.
Chareidim already do this. They have the highest fertility rate, which is the greatest form of public service. The only rational long-term solution to the Palestinian problem is through demographics, and the only path for this is through the Chareidi growht rate.
I really appreciate your "all of Israel" feeling, your concern that it will be very difficult here if the ultra-Orthodox don't mobilize. Everyone has the same feeling and the same concern. But, I long ago stopped referring to them as part of the people of Israel. why? (1) Because they compare themselves to Arabs who are not part of the People of Israel: "Why do you demand that we enlist and not the Arabs"? (2) Because according to the N12 investigation, only 5-15% of ultra-Orthodox men study 12/6 and the rest is a money industry and fraud by Yeshiva leaders and kollels. So there is nothing here related to learning Torah. It is about the lack of any feeling in the face of raped women, murdered men, captives and one hundred and fifty thousand people who were expelled from their homes and their jobs in the communities on the border of Lebanon and Gaza (3) because they refer to religious-nationalists as "Gentiles", "Amalek" and "Arab Rav" and studying the Torah of the Gentiles It is nothing but forbidden Torah study because a Gentile is not allowed to study Torah. (4) The cries in the ultra-Orthodox press and ultra-Orthodox blogs these weeks are: "The end of Judaism"! "The end of Israel", "the end of the Torah", "the war of annihilation against the Jews"! - All this, because in the eyes of the "Orthodox", we are not Jews...
The Netziv was writing in a different time where he imagined those studying Torah full time were regular members of society that somehow had an income, perhaps from property ownership, that enabled them to live while studying. He could not have envisaged a whole class of people who would be able to live like this by surviving off govt benefits and not earning a living because such a concept didn't exist in his day. He probably would have disapproved if he had known, given all the prohibitions concerning not earning a living and living off charity.
But it wouldn't work today as you can't pay higher taxes if you pay little or no taxes to begin with, earn no income and are a net beneficiary from the govt. And they also believe they are performing the highest form of national service by learning.
The Netziv predates Zionism being a community-defining issue. He was Zionist (by most definitions). And yet Volozhin's segan Rosh Yeshiva, R Chaim Brisker, was very much not. The latter's influence on today's Yeshivish is far greater. "The Netziv operates from a value system that is as charedi as you can get" isn't true for what "Chareidi" has meant since it was transplanted out of Europe. You might as well tell today's Chareidim to follow the plan of the Netzvi's talmid, R AY Kook.
You know very well that it boils down to the gedolim. The gedolim will disagree with you; end of story. The govt needs to defund institutions that support this mindset and cut funding to charedi causes. They also need to provide incentives to people who serve. There will be much less resentment that way.
"Incidentally, I’ve always found it strange that charedim conveniently sometimes compare themselves to Yissachar, and at other times compare themselves to Levi."
That's because שבט לוי gets exemption from the army (for a מלחמת רשות) and שבט יששכר is supported by שבט זבולון. I've recently provided sources from the כתב/חתם סופר and אהרן קוטלר that these two types of Torah scholars are distinct. One can't be both. One can't claim exemption from the army as a "honorary" member of שבט לוי and at the same time, demand money as an "honorary" member of שבט יששכר.
Listen to these audio recordings (https://www.srugim.co.il/910722-%d7%aa%d7%9c%d7%9e%d7%99%d7%93%d7%99-%d7%a4%d7%95%d7%a0%d7%99%d7%91%d7%96-%d7%9c%d7%a1%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%92%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%90%d7%aa%d7%9d-%d7%a6%d7%a8%d7%99%d7%9b%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%9c%d7%95%d7%9e): yeshiva students genuinely believe that they not only assist the army in fighting, but they are superior to the army and are practically the sole source of protection for the State of Israel. It's time to acknowledge: we are dealing with a sect no better or worse than any other, such as the J-e-h-o-v-a-h's Witnesses.
Question for the Netziv: If one is studying Torah full time, how does one afford extra taxes?
Oh, I know!
Netziv worked with a scenario where the nation and the king and the army all kept the Torah. A leader like David was always asking the sanhedrin about how to act, not secular political "leaders".
Netziv certainly would not approve of drafting girls into the army! He would be very angry about sexual misconduct in the army, which presents serious challenges to soldiers. Why dont you speak to this issue at length in your next piece instead of dodging it?
I recall you responding some months ago that you first have to discuss certain issues and will then discuss this. Of-course you never did. No blog about halacha and the army and the many pitfalls because you know you will lose. Shame on you.
The mesorah is not like the Netziv :)
actually parasites live off others while leeches suck blood
Not such a fan of this "gotcha". Historically, something close to this is in fact how things often worked, in countries where there was a draft: Rich people got their sons out of the draft by paying money to government officials, or by sending them to school. I don't think chareidim would mind this too much, they'd probably raise money from rich donors for this.
As for implementing something like "Torah Study Brigades" at the front lines of war, this would be extremely impractical, quite dangerous, and not something that anyone would have any interest in facilitating.
Technical: The hyperlink in " fleeing during war" is to a Jpost article about Obama. I assume this is a mistake?
I think it's worthwhile to note that Chabad does send some "Torah Study Brigades to the front lines"
I agree with the article, but this line "presumably either because the protective force of Torah is geographically concentrated" is unnecessary snark, with all due respect.
Haredim
Chareidim already do this. They have the highest fertility rate, which is the greatest form of public service. The only rational long-term solution to the Palestinian problem is through demographics, and the only path for this is through the Chareidi growht rate.
Anyone who denies the law is no longer Jewish