I really appreciate your "all of Israel" feeling, your concern that it will be very difficult here if the ultra-Orthodox don't mobilize. Everyone has the same feeling and the same concern. But, I long ago stopped referring to them as part of the people of Israel. why? (1) Because they compare themselves to Arabs who are not part of the People of Israel: "Why do you demand that we enlist and not the Arabs"? (2) Because according to the N12 investigation, only 5-15% of ultra-Orthodox men study 12/6 and the rest is a money industry and fraud by Yeshiva leaders and kollels. So there is nothing here related to learning Torah. It is about the lack of any feeling in the face of raped women, murdered men, captives and one hundred and fifty thousand people who were expelled from their homes and their jobs in the communities on the border of Lebanon and Gaza (3) because they refer to religious-nationalists as "Gentiles", "Amalek" and "Arab Rav" and studying the Torah of the Gentiles It is nothing but forbidden Torah study because a Gentile is not allowed to study Torah. (4) The cries in the ultra-Orthodox press and ultra-Orthodox blogs these weeks are: "The end of Judaism"! "The end of Israel", "the end of the Torah", "the war of annihilation against the Jews"! - All this, because in the eyes of the "Orthodox", we are not Jews...
It's not that you are not jews, it's that you don't follow the religion of Judaism. Needless to say, the chilonim don't practice Judaism, but even a lot of religious Zionist have a very chiloni philosophy which transfers to their religious practice as well. Obviously, that's clear with Slifkin, but you can even see it with the religious Zionist rabbinical authorities. Rav Uri Sherki said it is better to remain an irreligious fighter pilot than become religious and leave the army. This is a completely goyishe hashkafa, as goyishe as it gets.
". Rav Uri Sherki said it is better to remain an irreligious fighter pilot than become religious and leave the army. "
No he didn't. He didn't lament that the fighter became a בעל תשובה, he lamented that the בעל תשובה abandoned being a soldier which is also a Torah value. This has been discussed before; I'm not why you distort what R' Sherki said, given that there's room for disagreement without being dishonest.
He did. He said that the person went down in madreigah terribly by becoming an observant kollelnik from a secular fighter pilot. Can't get more clear. This is the religious Zionist philosophy. Own it.
The Netziv was writing in a different time where he imagined those studying Torah full time were regular members of society that somehow had an income, perhaps from property ownership, that enabled them to live while studying. He could not have envisaged a whole class of people who would be able to live like this by surviving off govt benefits and not earning a living because such a concept didn't exist in his day. He probably would have disapproved if he had known, given all the prohibitions concerning not earning a living and living off charity.
But it wouldn't work today as you can't pay higher taxes if you pay little or no taxes to begin with, earn no income and are a net beneficiary from the govt. And they also believe they are performing the highest form of national service by learning.
'Given all the prohibitions concerning not earning a living and living off charity'
You assume the Netziv agreed with you about the prohibitions, ignoring the fact that the Netziv was a Mechallel Shem Shamayim according to the source of these prohibitions. He did not live according to the Rambam, he took money for his job as Rav, and he raised money to support the bochurim and yungeleit in Volozhin.
They are performing the highest form of national service by learning. That is not the main reason why they don't serve in the secular army though, but because they don't want to be secularized.
Why would they be secularized in the army? Is their chinuch and core beliefs so weak?
Just another made up excuse to allow others to die or be injured for them.
Or you suggesting chareidi chinuch is no different from modox chinuch, just as the latter have a strong risk of dropping out so do the former. Quite an admission!
Nope. The only thing remotely relevant is you claimed;
"If the army would be run like an office (9-5 job, you can quit whenever you want, no expectation to adhere to a certain ideology, no requirement to sing patriotic secular songs),"
So assuming, bizarrely, that it is correct that chareidim will be forced to sing 'patriotic secular songs', are you suggesting that chareidim will lose their faith from singing a few 'patriotic secular songs'? What 'certain ideology' will charedim have to comply with that will cause them to lose their faith? Semi secular Russians behind the Iron Curtain did not 'lose their faith', yet chareidim will in the army? A damning indictment of the chareidi system.
You know, the great irony of all this in my view is that it is only a danger now when there are so few chareidim. Were chareidim to join en mass, I predict the result would be the most successful kiruv campain in history. Isn't moshiach supposed to come when all of isreal keeps 1 shabbos? Well now is the chareidims chance to infulence the secular.
Charedim think their religion is so weak it cannot stand up to scrutiny, and contact with secular people will lead to charedim becoming secular, not the reverse.
Not that it cannot stand up to scrutiny. To the contrary, secular and so-called "religious" Zionism cannot stand up to any scrutiny of Torah sources whatsoever. See Rav Uri Sherki above saying there are no mitzvos in chutz la'aretz and that it is better to be secular in the army than religious and leave the army. But chareidim, following in the footsteps of Chazal, correctly observe that *people* are weak and contact with seculars will more likely lead them to becoming secular than the reverse. This is why kiruv is not the recommended path for the many but for the few. And there is no better evidence of this than the so-called "religious" Zionist community, which is thoroughly secularized and where it is not considered a big deal for somebody to leave religion as long as they serve in the holy army.
"See Rav Uri Sherki above saying there are no mitzvos in chutz la'aretz and that it is better to be secular in the army than religious and leave the army."
"They are performing the highest form of national service by learning."
No, they're not (well, maybe 10% of them are), because as you just admitted, they don't join the army because they don't want to be secularized, not because they're trying to help anyone. Oh, and 1/3 of the country doesn't get to do that.
The Zionists also don't join the army because they are trying to help anyone, but because of social pressure. The chareidim are still performing the highest form of national service though.
Lol, "The Zionists". They're just random Israelis who are willing to be drafted to protect their own country surrounded by enemies. I know, what a crazy concept. Do you think they're risking their lives because of "social pressure"? You sound like dumb propaganda poster from the Neturei Karta circa 1970. Or Ayatollah Khamenei.
Yes, yes, I know you think random Israelis are superheroes who are being moser nefesh to help their fellow Jews. Not because it is considered literally unacceptable in their society not to serve, and lack of service severely hurts their career options. Gosh you are naive. Do you also believe in Superman?
Um, yes. Countries around the world have this thing called a "military" with soldiers that are generally proud to fight to preserve their own country's existence and to prevent their fellow citizens from being killed. I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to understand.
" . . . because it is considered literally unacceptable in their society not to serve."
You're a fool. Of course they want to protect the country! The fact that your separation from society stops you from appreciating the soldiers and recognizing real sacrifice for values shows how far we need to stay from tolerating your views until you return to עם ישראל.
There are segments of secular israeli society where not everyone serves at least not in combat capacity.
" I know you think random Israelis are superheroes who are being moser nefesh to help their fellow Jews... Do you also believe in Superman? "
Rav Aryeh Levin believed in these super men. Here's what he had to say about soldiers : "hallowed and purified by their fate to shine with the radiance of heaven above, exalted to a spiritual rank by their lot when even the highest ministering angels cannot approach them". ( A Tzaddik in Our Time, 2d ed. 1976, pg 268, chap. 18 "In the Sphere of Martyrdom". 2008 ed. pg 289)
The Netziv predates Zionism being a community-defining issue. He was Zionist (by most definitions). And yet Volozhin's segan Rosh Yeshiva, R Chaim Brisker, was very much not. The latter's influence on today's Yeshivish is far greater. "The Netziv operates from a value system that is as charedi as you can get" isn't true for what "Chareidi" has meant since it was transplanted out of Europe. You might as well tell today's Chareidim to follow the plan of the Netzvi's talmid, R AY Kook.
His father signed the proclamation of Chovavei Tzion before Secularists began running the movement (those days was only somewhat) . The main issue Rav Chaim had was the turn CZ took in his day, and I don't think he felt he was differing from his father, although the netziv saw things differently. Meller has a long piece on this in his book on Rav Chaim.
You know very well that it boils down to the gedolim. The gedolim will disagree with you; end of story. The govt needs to defund institutions that support this mindset and cut funding to charedi causes. They also need to provide incentives to people who serve. There will be much less resentment that way.
"Incidentally, I’ve always found it strange that charedim conveniently sometimes compare themselves to Yissachar, and at other times compare themselves to Levi."
That's because שבט לוי gets exemption from the army (for a מלחמת רשות) and שבט יששכר is supported by שבט זבולון. I've recently provided sources from the כתב/חתם סופר and אהרן קוטלר that these two types of Torah scholars are distinct. One can't be both. One can't claim exemption from the army as a "honorary" member of שבט לוי and at the same time, demand money as an "honorary" member of שבט יששכר.
"yeshiva students genuinely believe that they not only assist the army in fighting, but they are superior to the army and are practically the sole source of protection for the State of Israel."
It's obvious that the new law needs to state that the Charedi Torah study which assists the army and fighting and are practically the sole source of fighting also protects the one learning Torah from being drafted. As such everyone learning Torah needs to be put into a draft lottery so as to fill the number of army fighting and other national service positions which are actually needed, and the ones whose names come up for being drafted are obviously the ones whose Torah learning isn't up to standard for continuing to assist the army in fighting by sitting and learning.
Netziv worked with a scenario where the nation and the king and the army all kept the Torah. A leader like David was always asking the sanhedrin about how to act, not secular political "leaders".
Netziv certainly would not approve of drafting girls into the army! He would be very angry about sexual misconduct in the army, which presents serious challenges to soldiers. Why dont you speak to this issue at length in your next piece instead of dodging it?
I recall you responding some months ago that you first have to discuss certain issues and will then discuss this. Of-course you never did. No blog about halacha and the army and the many pitfalls because you know you will lose. Shame on you.
Serious spiritual issues that run counter to a Jews way of living arent super important right?
It's so minor you won't even address it (like you said you would) in a dedicated post. The dangers of sexual misconduct. The dangers in many other Torah areas...by your very own daughters admission! Her irresponsible answer was to get more frum Jews there, without emphasizing that it must be types that can withstand negative pressures.
To your type, many national issues are important...however Torah issues are back burner at best...they are soft peddled.
They are SUPER important. They don't justify ignoring Lo Saamod Al Dam Reyacha and demanding money instead.
*IF* you believe that going to the army is just too high a price for you to be able to pay, then you need to come up with some other way to make it up to the nation. Such as the one that Netziv suggests.
"A leader like David was always asking the sanhedrin about how to act, not secular political "leaders". "
See the מלבי"ם in his ארץ חמדה in the section on אגדות. On ברכות ג he notes that דוד first got advice from secular sources before asking the סנהדרין and finally the אורים ותומים. I suspect that the מלבי"ם will disappoint those on his left and right.
Not to get all historical-critical here but… are we suggesting there was a sanhedrin in the time of David Hamelech?
(“Sanhedrin” itself is, of course, a calque from Greek and David’s reign preceded Greek influence in Eretz Yisrael by *at least* 500 years…)
Or is the idea that David consulted some kind of council of z’keinim that could have preceded the Sanhedrin?
(Even this interpretation seems strained in the context of a time that had just seen the transition in influence from individual shof’tim to individual nevi’im…)
We know Moshe Rabbeinu had a council of zekenim and IIRC it's also mentioned in the time of Yehoshua. We know that Sefer Devarim talks about a "supreme court" at the site of the Temple. Generally neviim were in opposition to the government, not part of it. So there is a lot of evidence for some form of council in this early period, even if we don't have details of specifics. No it was not called by the Greek word "Sanhedrin" of course.
There’s also sexual misconduct in Haredi communities. You maybe don't hear about it as much because there is a culture of denial, blaming/shaming victims, and discouraging the reporting to secular authorities
Not such a fan of this "gotcha". Historically, something close to this is in fact how things often worked, in countries where there was a draft: Rich people got their sons out of the draft by paying money to government officials, or by sending them to school. I don't think chareidim would mind this too much, they'd probably raise money from rich donors for this.
As for implementing something like "Torah Study Brigades" at the front lines of war, this would be extremely impractical, quite dangerous, and not something that anyone would have any interest in facilitating.
Technical: The hyperlink in " fleeing during war" is to a Jpost article about Obama. I assume this is a mistake?
I agree with the article, but this line "presumably either because the protective force of Torah is geographically concentrated" is unnecessary snark, with all due respect.
Chareidim already do this. They have the highest fertility rate, which is the greatest form of public service. The only rational long-term solution to the Palestinian problem is through demographics, and the only path for this is through the Chareidi growht rate.
Basically, I think your idea that more Charedim means "no soldiers to man the army and no money to pay for the army" has no basis in reality.
But this was narrowly focused on this specific post, which didn't claim that. It merely requested that Charedim need to share the burden with public service. To which I responded that they already do that.
I really appreciate your "all of Israel" feeling, your concern that it will be very difficult here if the ultra-Orthodox don't mobilize. Everyone has the same feeling and the same concern. But, I long ago stopped referring to them as part of the people of Israel. why? (1) Because they compare themselves to Arabs who are not part of the People of Israel: "Why do you demand that we enlist and not the Arabs"? (2) Because according to the N12 investigation, only 5-15% of ultra-Orthodox men study 12/6 and the rest is a money industry and fraud by Yeshiva leaders and kollels. So there is nothing here related to learning Torah. It is about the lack of any feeling in the face of raped women, murdered men, captives and one hundred and fifty thousand people who were expelled from their homes and their jobs in the communities on the border of Lebanon and Gaza (3) because they refer to religious-nationalists as "Gentiles", "Amalek" and "Arab Rav" and studying the Torah of the Gentiles It is nothing but forbidden Torah study because a Gentile is not allowed to study Torah. (4) The cries in the ultra-Orthodox press and ultra-Orthodox blogs these weeks are: "The end of Judaism"! "The end of Israel", "the end of the Torah", "the war of annihilation against the Jews"! - All this, because in the eyes of the "Orthodox", we are not Jews...
It's not that you are not jews, it's that you don't follow the religion of Judaism. Needless to say, the chilonim don't practice Judaism, but even a lot of religious Zionist have a very chiloni philosophy which transfers to their religious practice as well. Obviously, that's clear with Slifkin, but you can even see it with the religious Zionist rabbinical authorities. Rav Uri Sherki said it is better to remain an irreligious fighter pilot than become religious and leave the army. This is a completely goyishe hashkafa, as goyishe as it gets.
". Rav Uri Sherki said it is better to remain an irreligious fighter pilot than become religious and leave the army. "
No he didn't. He didn't lament that the fighter became a בעל תשובה, he lamented that the בעל תשובה abandoned being a soldier which is also a Torah value. This has been discussed before; I'm not why you distort what R' Sherki said, given that there's room for disagreement without being dishonest.
He did. He said that the person went down in madreigah terribly by becoming an observant kollelnik from a secular fighter pilot. Can't get more clear. This is the religious Zionist philosophy. Own it.
No, he did not. Why not post the link?
Sure he did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8ig2_evuLM
No he didn't. You don't have to agree with him, but you haven't presented his view correctly.
And why not provide the full shiur instead of a short clip without the context?
https://meirtv.com/shiurim/shiur-15485/
The Netziv was writing in a different time where he imagined those studying Torah full time were regular members of society that somehow had an income, perhaps from property ownership, that enabled them to live while studying. He could not have envisaged a whole class of people who would be able to live like this by surviving off govt benefits and not earning a living because such a concept didn't exist in his day. He probably would have disapproved if he had known, given all the prohibitions concerning not earning a living and living off charity.
But it wouldn't work today as you can't pay higher taxes if you pay little or no taxes to begin with, earn no income and are a net beneficiary from the govt. And they also believe they are performing the highest form of national service by learning.
'Given all the prohibitions concerning not earning a living and living off charity'
You assume the Netziv agreed with you about the prohibitions, ignoring the fact that the Netziv was a Mechallel Shem Shamayim according to the source of these prohibitions. He did not live according to the Rambam, he took money for his job as Rav, and he raised money to support the bochurim and yungeleit in Volozhin.
They are performing the highest form of national service by learning. That is not the main reason why they don't serve in the secular army though, but because they don't want to be secularized.
Why would they be secularized in the army? Is their chinuch and core beliefs so weak?
Just another made up excuse to allow others to die or be injured for them.
Or you suggesting chareidi chinuch is no different from modox chinuch, just as the latter have a strong risk of dropping out so do the former. Quite an admission!
Oh! We discussed this https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-exodus-disgrace-called-out/comment/51699531
Yeah, and needless to say, you didn't deal with the point.....
I did, עיין שם
Nope. The only thing remotely relevant is you claimed;
"If the army would be run like an office (9-5 job, you can quit whenever you want, no expectation to adhere to a certain ideology, no requirement to sing patriotic secular songs),"
So assuming, bizarrely, that it is correct that chareidim will be forced to sing 'patriotic secular songs', are you suggesting that chareidim will lose their faith from singing a few 'patriotic secular songs'? What 'certain ideology' will charedim have to comply with that will cause them to lose their faith? Semi secular Russians behind the Iron Curtain did not 'lose their faith', yet chareidim will in the army? A damning indictment of the chareidi system.
Please provide a summary with the link. Or copy & paste.
You know, the great irony of all this in my view is that it is only a danger now when there are so few chareidim. Were chareidim to join en mass, I predict the result would be the most successful kiruv campain in history. Isn't moshiach supposed to come when all of isreal keeps 1 shabbos? Well now is the chareidims chance to infulence the secular.
Charedim think their religion is so weak it cannot stand up to scrutiny, and contact with secular people will lead to charedim becoming secular, not the reverse.
Not that it cannot stand up to scrutiny. To the contrary, secular and so-called "religious" Zionism cannot stand up to any scrutiny of Torah sources whatsoever. See Rav Uri Sherki above saying there are no mitzvos in chutz la'aretz and that it is better to be secular in the army than religious and leave the army. But chareidim, following in the footsteps of Chazal, correctly observe that *people* are weak and contact with seculars will more likely lead them to becoming secular than the reverse. This is why kiruv is not the recommended path for the many but for the few. And there is no better evidence of this than the so-called "religious" Zionist community, which is thoroughly secularized and where it is not considered a big deal for somebody to leave religion as long as they serve in the holy army.
"See Rav Uri Sherki above saying there are no mitzvos in chutz la'aretz and that it is better to be secular in the army than religious and leave the army."
Where? Please provide the full quotes in context.
"They are performing the highest form of national service by learning."
No, they're not (well, maybe 10% of them are), because as you just admitted, they don't join the army because they don't want to be secularized, not because they're trying to help anyone. Oh, and 1/3 of the country doesn't get to do that.
The Zionists also don't join the army because they are trying to help anyone, but because of social pressure. The chareidim are still performing the highest form of national service though.
Lol, "The Zionists". They're just random Israelis who are willing to be drafted to protect their own country surrounded by enemies. I know, what a crazy concept. Do you think they're risking their lives because of "social pressure"? You sound like dumb propaganda poster from the Neturei Karta circa 1970. Or Ayatollah Khamenei.
Yes, yes, I know you think random Israelis are superheroes who are being moser nefesh to help their fellow Jews. Not because it is considered literally unacceptable in their society not to serve, and lack of service severely hurts their career options. Gosh you are naive. Do you also believe in Superman?
Um, yes. Countries around the world have this thing called a "military" with soldiers that are generally proud to fight to preserve their own country's existence and to prevent their fellow citizens from being killed. I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to understand.
" . . . because it is considered literally unacceptable in their society not to serve."
Yes, as it should be!
You're a fool. Of course they want to protect the country! The fact that your separation from society stops you from appreciating the soldiers and recognizing real sacrifice for values shows how far we need to stay from tolerating your views until you return to עם ישראל.
There are segments of secular israeli society where not everyone serves at least not in combat capacity.
" I know you think random Israelis are superheroes who are being moser nefesh to help their fellow Jews... Do you also believe in Superman? "
Rav Aryeh Levin believed in these super men. Here's what he had to say about soldiers : "hallowed and purified by their fate to shine with the radiance of heaven above, exalted to a spiritual rank by their lot when even the highest ministering angels cannot approach them". ( A Tzaddik in Our Time, 2d ed. 1976, pg 268, chap. 18 "In the Sphere of Martyrdom". 2008 ed. pg 289)
Your clulessness about Israeli society is stagering. Do you even live here?
The Netziv predates Zionism being a community-defining issue. He was Zionist (by most definitions). And yet Volozhin's segan Rosh Yeshiva, R Chaim Brisker, was very much not. The latter's influence on today's Yeshivish is far greater. "The Netziv operates from a value system that is as charedi as you can get" isn't true for what "Chareidi" has meant since it was transplanted out of Europe. You might as well tell today's Chareidim to follow the plan of the Netzvi's talmid, R AY Kook.
The Netziv as the father of the Yeshiva community is a myth that only the most ignorant of Jewish history, culture, and development can make.
Ironically, the same ignorance often leads to calls for drafting Charedim.
It's a feature, not a bug.
"R Chaim Brisker, was very much not."
Unlike his father.
His father signed the proclamation of Chovavei Tzion before Secularists began running the movement (those days was only somewhat) . The main issue Rav Chaim had was the turn CZ took in his day, and I don't think he felt he was differing from his father, although the netziv saw things differently. Meller has a long piece on this in his book on Rav Chaim.
You know very well that it boils down to the gedolim. The gedolim will disagree with you; end of story. The govt needs to defund institutions that support this mindset and cut funding to charedi causes. They also need to provide incentives to people who serve. There will be much less resentment that way.
"Incidentally, I’ve always found it strange that charedim conveniently sometimes compare themselves to Yissachar, and at other times compare themselves to Levi."
That's because שבט לוי gets exemption from the army (for a מלחמת רשות) and שבט יששכר is supported by שבט זבולון. I've recently provided sources from the כתב/חתם סופר and אהרן קוטלר that these two types of Torah scholars are distinct. One can't be both. One can't claim exemption from the army as a "honorary" member of שבט לוי and at the same time, demand money as an "honorary" member of שבט יששכר.
Listen to these audio recordings (https://www.srugim.co.il/910722-%d7%aa%d7%9c%d7%9e%d7%99%d7%93%d7%99-%d7%a4%d7%95%d7%a0%d7%99%d7%91%d7%96-%d7%9c%d7%a1%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%92%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%90%d7%aa%d7%9d-%d7%a6%d7%a8%d7%99%d7%9b%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%9c%d7%95%d7%9e): yeshiva students genuinely believe that they not only assist the army in fighting, but they are superior to the army and are practically the sole source of protection for the State of Israel. It's time to acknowledge: we are dealing with a sect no better or worse than any other, such as the J-e-h-o-v-a-h's Witnesses.
"yeshiva students genuinely believe that they not only assist the army in fighting, but they are superior to the army and are practically the sole source of protection for the State of Israel."
Sound like a bad case of כוחי ועוצם ידי.
It's obvious that the new law needs to state that the Charedi Torah study which assists the army and fighting and are practically the sole source of fighting also protects the one learning Torah from being drafted. As such everyone learning Torah needs to be put into a draft lottery so as to fill the number of army fighting and other national service positions which are actually needed, and the ones whose names come up for being drafted are obviously the ones whose Torah learning isn't up to standard for continuing to assist the army in fighting by sitting and learning.
I was thinking the exact same thing!!
I'm working on a revision to the draft law to include this
Question for the Netziv: If one is studying Torah full time, how does one afford extra taxes?
Oh, I know!
Netziv worked with a scenario where the nation and the king and the army all kept the Torah. A leader like David was always asking the sanhedrin about how to act, not secular political "leaders".
Netziv certainly would not approve of drafting girls into the army! He would be very angry about sexual misconduct in the army, which presents serious challenges to soldiers. Why dont you speak to this issue at length in your next piece instead of dodging it?
I recall you responding some months ago that you first have to discuss certain issues and will then discuss this. Of-course you never did. No blog about halacha and the army and the many pitfalls because you know you will lose. Shame on you.
I'm not sure why you think that spiritual problems in the army justifies not going and having the country pay you instead.
Serious spiritual issues that run counter to a Jews way of living arent super important right?
It's so minor you won't even address it (like you said you would) in a dedicated post. The dangers of sexual misconduct. The dangers in many other Torah areas...by your very own daughters admission! Her irresponsible answer was to get more frum Jews there, without emphasizing that it must be types that can withstand negative pressures.
To your type, many national issues are important...however Torah issues are back burner at best...they are soft peddled.
They are SUPER important. They don't justify ignoring Lo Saamod Al Dam Reyacha and demanding money instead.
*IF* you believe that going to the army is just too high a price for you to be able to pay, then you need to come up with some other way to make it up to the nation. Such as the one that Netziv suggests.
"A leader like David was always asking the sanhedrin about how to act, not secular political "leaders". "
See the מלבי"ם in his ארץ חמדה in the section on אגדות. On ברכות ג he notes that דוד first got advice from secular sources before asking the סנהדרין and finally the אורים ותומים. I suspect that the מלבי"ם will disappoint those on his left and right.
Here: https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38364&st=&pgnum=53
Not to get all historical-critical here but… are we suggesting there was a sanhedrin in the time of David Hamelech?
(“Sanhedrin” itself is, of course, a calque from Greek and David’s reign preceded Greek influence in Eretz Yisrael by *at least* 500 years…)
Or is the idea that David consulted some kind of council of z’keinim that could have preceded the Sanhedrin?
(Even this interpretation seems strained in the context of a time that had just seen the transition in influence from individual shof’tim to individual nevi’im…)
We know Moshe Rabbeinu had a council of zekenim and IIRC it's also mentioned in the time of Yehoshua. We know that Sefer Devarim talks about a "supreme court" at the site of the Temple. Generally neviim were in opposition to the government, not part of it. So there is a lot of evidence for some form of council in this early period, even if we don't have details of specifics. No it was not called by the Greek word "Sanhedrin" of course.
Is there any reference in tanakh to any group of zekinim with sanhedrin like powers inthe time of Dovid Shlomo or other malkhei yehudah?
There’s also sexual misconduct in Haredi communities. You maybe don't hear about it as much because there is a culture of denial, blaming/shaming victims, and discouraging the reporting to secular authorities
Whataboutism. The real question is why these same MKs insist that Yeshiva students abandon full time learning to enlist.
The mesorah is not like the Netziv :)
actually parasites live off others while leeches suck blood
Not such a fan of this "gotcha". Historically, something close to this is in fact how things often worked, in countries where there was a draft: Rich people got their sons out of the draft by paying money to government officials, or by sending them to school. I don't think chareidim would mind this too much, they'd probably raise money from rich donors for this.
As for implementing something like "Torah Study Brigades" at the front lines of war, this would be extremely impractical, quite dangerous, and not something that anyone would have any interest in facilitating.
Technical: The hyperlink in " fleeing during war" is to a Jpost article about Obama. I assume this is a mistake?
I think it's worthwhile to note that Chabad does send some "Torah Study Brigades to the front lines"
I agree with the article, but this line "presumably either because the protective force of Torah is geographically concentrated" is unnecessary snark, with all due respect.
Haredim
Chareidim already do this. They have the highest fertility rate, which is the greatest form of public service. The only rational long-term solution to the Palestinian problem is through demographics, and the only path for this is through the Chareidi growht rate.
How does the high fertility rate help if there are no soldiers to man the army and no money to pay for the army?
And why can't charedim serve three years in the army and then have lots of kids, like the dati leumi community?
>> And why can't charedim serve three years in the army and then have lots of kids, like the dati leumi community?
I am very curious about this. Do you know of any data showing that the DL community has a similar growth rate as the Chareidim?
I have a lot to say to these questions. Some of it I discussed in comments to previous posts. ALso see the discussion here https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/parent-shaming-causes-the-demographic/comment/50984381 And I hope to write more b this is the future.
Basically, I think your idea that more Charedim means "no soldiers to man the army and no money to pay for the army" has no basis in reality.
But this was narrowly focused on this specific post, which didn't claim that. It merely requested that Charedim need to share the burden with public service. To which I responded that they already do that.
Anyone who denies the law is no longer Jewish