Interesting (to me at least) than in many of your posts you refer to people with "charedi relatives, friends, colleagues or neighbors". In the circles I move in, including the town where I live, my work, and almost all of my immediate family I know almost no Charedim. With the more distant family who are in the Charedi world, we rarely speak, and when we do the topic of army almost never comes up. Almost everyone I know or interact with on a regular basis has kids in the army, or kids who will be drafting in the next few years.
I assume that this is true for the majority of Israelis, and even more so (in reverse) for the vast majority of Charedim who almost never interact with people from the Dati-Leumi or secular communities.
I think that places like Ramat Beit Shemesh are an exception, where you have Dati Leumi and Charedim (mainly Anglos) living alongside each other, shopping in the same stores, and often attending the same shuls.
This may be a big part of the problem, that the Charedi society is almost totally removed from the general population (as is a large part of the Arab community) and the issues that are important to other parts of the community do not even come up in their communities. This is true not only for army, but for politics, education, economics, and other aspects of life. I often feel that we are living in parallel but separate worlds.
When I moved to Israel 30 years ago this was less of an issue, there were many neighborhoods that were mixed (Har Nof, Bayit Vegan, and even Geula had large non-Charedi populations), but over the decades the communities are drifting further and further apart. Ramat Beit Shemesh may still be one of the few exceptions, although over the past 20 years it also is becoming more segregated (when the neighbourhood was built, developers tried to sell us a home there claiming that it would be ⅓ Black Kipa, ⅓ Knitted Kipa, and ⅓ no Kipa - didn't quite work out that way)
I'm not sure what the solution is, but unless we find more avenues for different segments of society to interact on a daily basis, most of society will remain oblivious to the way that they are perceived by other segments of society.
I think they are very aware that they are hated by other segments of society. They just view it no differently than Jews viewed Christian anti-Semitism. The best way to make your perceptions matter to them is to demonstrate that you are just as committed to the Torah as they are. And I must say that you have been doing an awful job at that. This blog is a microcosm of that problem. The blog owner claims to speak on behalf of the dati community. Whether this is or is not accurate-probably not- it's a big problem. Because he is a מומר להכעיס and a מסית ומדיח. Whether or not you agree with this, this is how most chareidim would view him. And a huge percentage of his supporters are out-and-out secular or even openly atheist. And most of the rest are extremely liberal modern orthodox. And this is the poster child for "chareidi hatred" position. Well, why would chareidim care about how they are perceived by these people? Do you care how you are perceived by the protesters at Columbia University?
I think that your comment is a great example of how the Charedi community has cut itself off from the wider community so much that they do not even know what people in other communities believe or do.
I am not sure that they are "hated by other segments of society". It is true that there are some individuals that hate Charedim, but the circles I move in there is a strong emphasis on loving all segments of society, even if we disagree about certain values.
I am not sure what you mean by "demonstrate that you are just as committed to the Torah as they are". In many Mitzvot I believe that I am far more committed than the average Charedi, and I'm not only talking about things like Tfilla B'Tzibur, (I have met or seen Charedim that occasionally skip minyanim, get on busses without paying, hang out in corner stores watching football games on TV, and other activities that I would not do, but I am sure that is a small minority of them), but also more fundamental Mitzvot, like the obligation to support my wife and to be careful in business dealings. It is true that some elements of the Dati Leumi community are more lax about some mitzvot, however there are also large communities that are more strict about mitzvot than the average Charedi Jew. If Charedim are not aware of that, the cause may be the fact that the entire community makes an effort to cut themselves off from wider society, so they would have no idea how many DL people are in minyan every day.
And I'm not sure what the relevance of your last comment about Colombia University is, but it pains me deeply that there are thousands of demonstrators who hate me for what I am and what I believe in. I would hope that Charedim are also pained by the thought that people may hate them for their beliefs.
I imagine that Charedim who live in areas with significant DL and secular populations would be less likely to make some of the inaccurate assumptions that you claim many Charedim make.
The perception that chareidim have of datiim and moderns is from being in proximity to them, not from lack of proximity. I don't see the point of denying the reality. Stick your head in the sand if you want, it won't get you anywhere. Your personal behavior and dikduk bmitzvos is not relevant to this since we are speaking on a communal level. Neither is redefining mitzvos in a way that chareidim would never agree with, like the "mitzvah" of making lots of money or the "mitzvah" of attending university or or the "mitzvah" of having a nice middle class lifestyle or the "mitzvah" of "tikkun olam". Even if from your perspective these are great mitzvos, far more fundamental than tefillah betzibbur and keeping Shabbos, how would you ever expect chareidim to accept that?? When I say demonstrating your commitment to the Torah, I obviously meant in a way that chareidim would accept. I'm sure there are datiim like that, but your comment just illustrated the problem better than I could. And even worse, supporting kofrim and meshumadim like Slifkin and others completely belies any claims of an acceptable level of observance.
As for hatred, Slifkin and the commenters all talk openly about hatred, very approvingly. Their language is seething with hatred, as much or more than any antisemite. Do you deny that calling people "parasites" is indicative of hatred? Again, what's the point in denying what we can see in front of eyes? But that wasn't my point, whether you call the perceptions of the non chareidim "hatred" or "fury" or "rage", you can't expect chareidim to take this seriously from people who have the diametric opposite of their worldview. So as not to end on a pessimistic note, I can see a lot of things the non chareidim can do to demonstrate their commitment to the Torah, but a very important one would be to take a public stance of separation from those who display hatred of the Torah. This would impress chareidim greatly. Like the title of the post, it's time for bravery.
Yup yup, talent can evolve but not for standing up to his friends in the first. This can turn into a comical exchange but I noticed no-one else pointed it out yet so I had to say something and leave it at that.
From the post about R. Neugroschel's drasha: "But one young man in the audience - a hesder yeshiva student that I know - stood up and issued a challenge (below is a video clip of his exchange)"
"At this point I stood up and spoke up (below is an audio recording of my exchange)."
Very interesting.
R. Slifkin isn't interested in disseminating R. Neugroschel's drasha - an illuminating talk from one of the most brilliant talmidei chachamim and an intellectual with extensive secular knowledge - and so doesn't see fit to record R. Neugroschel's actual speech for his readers to judge for themselves, but only someone who supports his biased views, and of course, himself (as if we aren't aware of his anti-Torah views, which have been flogged to death over years).
Anyway, for those who are not convinced by the infantile slanders that Haredim and their rabbis are just "selfish and irresponsible etc. etc. etc." here is a video of R. Zamir Cohen - addressed to people who are truly interested in listening to the truth.
"R. Slifkin isn't interested in disseminating R. Neugroschel's drasha." I am perfectly happy to do so, it superbly demonstrates the emptiness of the charedi position. I just found a link online - https://torahanytime.com/lectures/316012. Let us know in what way you find this talk "illuminating."
Interesting (to me at least) than in many of your posts you refer to people with "charedi relatives, friends, colleagues or neighbors". In the circles I move in, including the town where I live, my work, and almost all of my immediate family I know almost no Charedim. With the more distant family who are in the Charedi world, we rarely speak, and when we do the topic of army almost never comes up. Almost everyone I know or interact with on a regular basis has kids in the army, or kids who will be drafting in the next few years.
I assume that this is true for the majority of Israelis, and even more so (in reverse) for the vast majority of Charedim who almost never interact with people from the Dati-Leumi or secular communities.
I think that places like Ramat Beit Shemesh are an exception, where you have Dati Leumi and Charedim (mainly Anglos) living alongside each other, shopping in the same stores, and often attending the same shuls.
This may be a big part of the problem, that the Charedi society is almost totally removed from the general population (as is a large part of the Arab community) and the issues that are important to other parts of the community do not even come up in their communities. This is true not only for army, but for politics, education, economics, and other aspects of life. I often feel that we are living in parallel but separate worlds.
When I moved to Israel 30 years ago this was less of an issue, there were many neighborhoods that were mixed (Har Nof, Bayit Vegan, and even Geula had large non-Charedi populations), but over the decades the communities are drifting further and further apart. Ramat Beit Shemesh may still be one of the few exceptions, although over the past 20 years it also is becoming more segregated (when the neighbourhood was built, developers tried to sell us a home there claiming that it would be ⅓ Black Kipa, ⅓ Knitted Kipa, and ⅓ no Kipa - didn't quite work out that way)
I'm not sure what the solution is, but unless we find more avenues for different segments of society to interact on a daily basis, most of society will remain oblivious to the way that they are perceived by other segments of society.
I think they are very aware that they are hated by other segments of society. They just view it no differently than Jews viewed Christian anti-Semitism. The best way to make your perceptions matter to them is to demonstrate that you are just as committed to the Torah as they are. And I must say that you have been doing an awful job at that. This blog is a microcosm of that problem. The blog owner claims to speak on behalf of the dati community. Whether this is or is not accurate-probably not- it's a big problem. Because he is a מומר להכעיס and a מסית ומדיח. Whether or not you agree with this, this is how most chareidim would view him. And a huge percentage of his supporters are out-and-out secular or even openly atheist. And most of the rest are extremely liberal modern orthodox. And this is the poster child for "chareidi hatred" position. Well, why would chareidim care about how they are perceived by these people? Do you care how you are perceived by the protesters at Columbia University?
I think that your comment is a great example of how the Charedi community has cut itself off from the wider community so much that they do not even know what people in other communities believe or do.
I am not sure that they are "hated by other segments of society". It is true that there are some individuals that hate Charedim, but the circles I move in there is a strong emphasis on loving all segments of society, even if we disagree about certain values.
I am not sure what you mean by "demonstrate that you are just as committed to the Torah as they are". In many Mitzvot I believe that I am far more committed than the average Charedi, and I'm not only talking about things like Tfilla B'Tzibur, (I have met or seen Charedim that occasionally skip minyanim, get on busses without paying, hang out in corner stores watching football games on TV, and other activities that I would not do, but I am sure that is a small minority of them), but also more fundamental Mitzvot, like the obligation to support my wife and to be careful in business dealings. It is true that some elements of the Dati Leumi community are more lax about some mitzvot, however there are also large communities that are more strict about mitzvot than the average Charedi Jew. If Charedim are not aware of that, the cause may be the fact that the entire community makes an effort to cut themselves off from wider society, so they would have no idea how many DL people are in minyan every day.
And I'm not sure what the relevance of your last comment about Colombia University is, but it pains me deeply that there are thousands of demonstrators who hate me for what I am and what I believe in. I would hope that Charedim are also pained by the thought that people may hate them for their beliefs.
I imagine that Charedim who live in areas with significant DL and secular populations would be less likely to make some of the inaccurate assumptions that you claim many Charedim make.
The perception that chareidim have of datiim and moderns is from being in proximity to them, not from lack of proximity. I don't see the point of denying the reality. Stick your head in the sand if you want, it won't get you anywhere. Your personal behavior and dikduk bmitzvos is not relevant to this since we are speaking on a communal level. Neither is redefining mitzvos in a way that chareidim would never agree with, like the "mitzvah" of making lots of money or the "mitzvah" of attending university or or the "mitzvah" of having a nice middle class lifestyle or the "mitzvah" of "tikkun olam". Even if from your perspective these are great mitzvos, far more fundamental than tefillah betzibbur and keeping Shabbos, how would you ever expect chareidim to accept that?? When I say demonstrating your commitment to the Torah, I obviously meant in a way that chareidim would accept. I'm sure there are datiim like that, but your comment just illustrated the problem better than I could. And even worse, supporting kofrim and meshumadim like Slifkin and others completely belies any claims of an acceptable level of observance.
As for hatred, Slifkin and the commenters all talk openly about hatred, very approvingly. Their language is seething with hatred, as much or more than any antisemite. Do you deny that calling people "parasites" is indicative of hatred? Again, what's the point in denying what we can see in front of eyes? But that wasn't my point, whether you call the perceptions of the non chareidim "hatred" or "fury" or "rage", you can't expect chareidim to take this seriously from people who have the diametric opposite of their worldview. So as not to end on a pessimistic note, I can see a lot of things the non chareidim can do to demonstrate their commitment to the Torah, but a very important one would be to take a public stance of separation from those who display hatred of the Torah. This would impress chareidim greatly. Like the title of the post, it's time for bravery.
I move in secular circles. I've never detected any hatred or even ill feeling toward charedim. Quite to the contrary at times.
I recall some chassidic rebbe seeing how settler women dress and pointing out the obvious fact that it's a lot more tzanuah than many charedi women.
Oh, Colombia is a country. The university (and other locations in the US) is Columbia.
It's because we spend less money on our headwear. Conveys kedusha every time.
On the other hand, we spend more on our tzitzit.
Well that's a mitzva from the Torah
Almost every sentence in your post is speculation, fabrication and wishful thinking. Well except the last item. Wishful, yes; thinking, no.
Maybe it's a matter of where one's from, but a lot of American and British MO Jews have charedi relations.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." --Edmund Burke
You are arguing from an emotional standpoint while your opponents are arguing from an epistemological opinion which is just their opinion;
and neither the twain shall meet
Except that emotion has been the pain of the loss of fathers , husbands , sons and daughters. Were their deaths deserved?
As to the limits of knowledge:
What is all Haredim learned their Torah in a different place? Would God’s protection cease if they all moved to…. Samoa?
Didn’t we once move to Yavneh, Tzippori or Tiberia ? How about Metullah? Rosh Hanikra or Beit She’an?
Rav Slifkin, have you seen Noam Yaakovson's Parshat Noach video?
https://youtu.be/F74f6gbbRqc
Neville Longbottom huh
That was my point below.
Like the pic of the brave stooge from HP. It may get you ten points but that's it.
Hey, hey, he's the hero of the whole series.
Yup yup, talent can evolve but not for standing up to his friends in the first. This can turn into a comical exchange but I noticed no-one else pointed it out yet so I had to say something and leave it at that.
hi
hi
Rabbi Weitzman from Maalot on charedim
my point being that they are discussing at cross purposes
And what did the Rabbi respond?
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/an-erev-tisha-bav-disgrace?utm_campaign=posts-open-in-app&triedRedirect=true
Thank you
From the post about R. Neugroschel's drasha: "But one young man in the audience - a hesder yeshiva student that I know - stood up and issued a challenge (below is a video clip of his exchange)"
"At this point I stood up and spoke up (below is an audio recording of my exchange)."
Very interesting.
R. Slifkin isn't interested in disseminating R. Neugroschel's drasha - an illuminating talk from one of the most brilliant talmidei chachamim and an intellectual with extensive secular knowledge - and so doesn't see fit to record R. Neugroschel's actual speech for his readers to judge for themselves, but only someone who supports his biased views, and of course, himself (as if we aren't aware of his anti-Torah views, which have been flogged to death over years).
Anyway, for those who are not convinced by the infantile slanders that Haredim and their rabbis are just "selfish and irresponsible etc. etc. etc." here is a video of R. Zamir Cohen - addressed to people who are truly interested in listening to the truth.
https://www.hidabroot.org/video/223830
"R. Slifkin isn't interested in disseminating R. Neugroschel's drasha." I am perfectly happy to do so, it superbly demonstrates the emptiness of the charedi position. I just found a link online - https://torahanytime.com/lectures/316012. Let us know in what way you find this talk "illuminating."
Wow! That video was really pathetic!
The mistake after mistake in Rav Zamir Cohen's video has been critiqued over and over again in this site's articles, with source sited.
All you need to do is listen to Rav Granot's address to such non-halachic based claims, such as those give in Rav Cohen's video which you linked to.
Here again is Rav Granot's response to the likes of Rav Cohen and yourself:
https://youtu.be/XoRcnP4Htwo
" That video was really pathetic!"
What a scintillating reply!
And what do you have to say to refute his points, pray tell?
Alternatively, if you prefer: פרק כ"ו פסוק ד
משלי פרק י"ז פסוק י
Project much?
huh
What the heck?
But the Torah says not to murder, not that we don't kill. There are many commandments to kill.