"And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival"
People who believe in Divine Providence, who believe that G-d listens to our tefilos, who believe the many Chazals that Torah protects, shouldn't find this strange at all. If you represent the Dati Leumi public, it's easy to see why the chareidim consider them a different a religion, not Judaism. And it's easy to see why chareidim don't want to send their children to lose their Judaism in the army. If you really want chareidim to join the army, you should consider that this type of rhetoric has the opposite effect.
The whole point of charedism is that anything that doesn't come from the charedi world is suspect at best and more likely treyf. That explains their opposition to Zionism, science, secular knowledge, you name it.
And the closer things are to them, the *more* suspect and treyf it is. (This is a universal phenomenon, called "the narcissism of small differences," with obvious causes.) So religious Zionism is more treyf than secular Zionism; modern Orthodoxy is more treyf than Reform.
Long story short, no, any Torah learning not within their approved frameworks counts.
Why not fight hyperbole with hyperbole and have those who printed the brochure arrested for incitement to violence? Ben Yehuda was arrested for far less!
More seriously, it's sad that much of the Charedi world has deviated from careful use of language. In the בית מדרש every word is carefully scrutinized and analyzed. But in the field of politics, conflation and hyperbolic tone deafness are the rules of the game. But there's something sickeningly solipsistic of using the language of war during a real war to describe a political race of relatively minor consequence.
"(And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival.)"
I remember a charedi rav once reacting with horror at a comment that Noach (as opposed to Avraham) was a "tzadik in peltz," that is (nothwithstanding midrashim), a tzadik wrapped in a fur coat, concerned only with his only spiritual well-being and not that of civilization as a whole. Now, this is a long tradition in Jewish commentary: That Noach was great "b'dorotav," but (according to one view) wouldn't have been seen as great in another generation. (Others take the opposite view, saying that the word means he was great *even* considering his surroundings.) But the idea that someone could raise this as a critique horrified him. (And of course there's the charedi distaste for saying anything less than positive about anyone in Tanach.)
I suppose related are the charedi attempts- multiple- to explain away the well-known story of how the Maggid of Dubno gave mussar to the Vilna Gaon saying that he never left his home.
What is going onnnnn?! That the chief rabbi could say if they're forced to go to the army they would move abroad? That would literally be a secession to a different religion.
“It is 100% true that without the Torah, without spiritual existence, there is no Jewish People.”
And here, once again, is the rhetorical sleight-of-hand that is fundamental to Slifkin’s discourse. Did you notice it?
He will admit that “without the Torah, without spiritual existence, there is no Jewish People” – But what in the world does that have to do with the protection of learning Torah, which is the topic of the preceding quoted paragraph? He will never admit outright that learning Torah protects because he does not believe it – period. He just changes the discussion to “even according to you that Torah protects, there is plenty of Torah going on” but he himself will never say that HE BELIEVES learning Torah protects. Talk about sleight-of-hand!
And in case you had any doubt there’s this beauty: “And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival” – Right after saying that is plenty of Torah that can be learned in charedi yeshivos and kollelim in Israel by a few thousand elite charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation!
You stated that full time Torah students should teach what they learn to others. I have often felt this way and thought that their learning Torah only for themselves does nothing for Israel as a whole. So thank you for pointing this out.
Do you know any more history than you know zoology?
How do you definitively claim that there is more Torah learned today than any point in history? You have absolutely no clue how much Torah was learned at any point in history, or even how much is learned nowadays.
But ignorance is not a bug in the anti-Charedi movement, it is its defining feature.
"And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival"
People who believe in Divine Providence, who believe that G-d listens to our tefilos, who believe the many Chazals that Torah protects, shouldn't find this strange at all. If you represent the Dati Leumi public, it's easy to see why the chareidim consider them a different a religion, not Judaism. And it's easy to see why chareidim don't want to send their children to lose their Judaism in the army. If you really want chareidim to join the army, you should consider that this type of rhetoric has the opposite effect.
The whole point of charedism is that anything that doesn't come from the charedi world is suspect at best and more likely treyf. That explains their opposition to Zionism, science, secular knowledge, you name it.
And the closer things are to them, the *more* suspect and treyf it is. (This is a universal phenomenon, called "the narcissism of small differences," with obvious causes.) So religious Zionism is more treyf than secular Zionism; modern Orthodoxy is more treyf than Reform.
Long story short, no, any Torah learning not within their approved frameworks counts.
"This kind of hyperbole..."
Why not fight hyperbole with hyperbole and have those who printed the brochure arrested for incitement to violence? Ben Yehuda was arrested for far less!
More seriously, it's sad that much of the Charedi world has deviated from careful use of language. In the בית מדרש every word is carefully scrutinized and analyzed. But in the field of politics, conflation and hyperbolic tone deafness are the rules of the game. But there's something sickeningly solipsistic of using the language of war during a real war to describe a political race of relatively minor consequence.
Did I see somewhere a haredi threat ...
That if the draft exemption was repealed charedim would leave Israel. ?
Duh !!
Such a loss we could maybe cope with.
Thank you for this post.
The pain level of the Dati Leumi Torani population in Beit Shemesh is through the roof, as it is throughout the country.
We have a mayor who refuses to say a bad word about the Charedi population and yet she is accused of being the next Haman.
We have hundreds of boys drafted and many buried and yet the Charedi boys sit on highways and claim they'd rather die than serve.
We are truly facing an internal genocide. It's so sad that this is what the Charedi camp has deteriorated to. Complete and utter moral deterioration.
Approximately what percentage of chareidim roll their eyes when they see a sign like that and what percentage take it literally?
"(And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival.)"
I remember a charedi rav once reacting with horror at a comment that Noach (as opposed to Avraham) was a "tzadik in peltz," that is (nothwithstanding midrashim), a tzadik wrapped in a fur coat, concerned only with his only spiritual well-being and not that of civilization as a whole. Now, this is a long tradition in Jewish commentary: That Noach was great "b'dorotav," but (according to one view) wouldn't have been seen as great in another generation. (Others take the opposite view, saying that the word means he was great *even* considering his surroundings.) But the idea that someone could raise this as a critique horrified him. (And of course there's the charedi distaste for saying anything less than positive about anyone in Tanach.)
I suppose related are the charedi attempts- multiple- to explain away the well-known story of how the Maggid of Dubno gave mussar to the Vilna Gaon saying that he never left his home.
What is going onnnnn?! That the chief rabbi could say if they're forced to go to the army they would move abroad? That would literally be a secession to a different religion.
Fire must be met with fire. People like you exaggerate so badly and so often about Charedim, they have to give it back twice as hard.
You think this is a critique of Charedim, but actually it's a critique of democracy.
"Declaring that “the entire existence of Judaism” depends on her being ousted is nothing short of utter absurdity."
What is it about Israel that makes people so crazy? I thought the avir of E"Y was supposed to make people smart. Asking seriously...
“It is 100% true that without the Torah, without spiritual existence, there is no Jewish People.”
And here, once again, is the rhetorical sleight-of-hand that is fundamental to Slifkin’s discourse. Did you notice it?
He will admit that “without the Torah, without spiritual existence, there is no Jewish People” – But what in the world does that have to do with the protection of learning Torah, which is the topic of the preceding quoted paragraph? He will never admit outright that learning Torah protects because he does not believe it – period. He just changes the discussion to “even according to you that Torah protects, there is plenty of Torah going on” but he himself will never say that HE BELIEVES learning Torah protects. Talk about sleight-of-hand!
And in case you had any doubt there’s this beauty: “And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival” – Right after saying that is plenty of Torah that can be learned in charedi yeshivos and kollelim in Israel by a few thousand elite charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation!
You stated that full time Torah students should teach what they learn to others. I have often felt this way and thought that their learning Torah only for themselves does nothing for Israel as a whole. So thank you for pointing this out.
Sadly, Dr. Bloch lost, if I saw the news correctly?
Do you know any more history than you know zoology?
How do you definitively claim that there is more Torah learned today than any point in history? You have absolutely no clue how much Torah was learned at any point in history, or even how much is learned nowadays.
But ignorance is not a bug in the anti-Charedi movement, it is its defining feature.
מאידך, You have an army whose top brass and ראש הממשלה barely ever mention god