"And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival"
People who believe in Divine Providence, who believe that G-d listens to our tefilos, who believe the many Chazals that Torah protects, shouldn't find this strange at all. If you represent the Dati Leumi public, it's easy to see why the chareidim consider them a different a religion, not Judaism. And it's easy to see why chareidim don't want to send their children to lose their Judaism in the army. If you really want chareidim to join the army, you should consider that this type of rhetoric has the opposite effect.
What does your hypothetical have to do with my comment? I am talking about the real word and you are bothering me with hypotheticals. What about the hypothetical when there is no State of Israel in the first place and we all live in chutz la'aretz?
I'll answer your question anyways. In the hypothetical of a country that is chareidi and run by chareidi leaders according to chareidi hashkafos, there would be a chareidi army.
So in this chareidy army, approximately what percentage or how many people would learn and approximately what percentage or how many people would serve in the chareidy army? How would you decide who does what? I would love to hear what everyone has to say on this.
In my ideal hypothetical chareidi futuristic army, all the fighting would be done by robots. I would prefer robotic spaceships for carefully targeted orbital strikes. The Palestinians will also have developed robots, so we will have a bloodless robots-vs-robots war, that will continue forever for the pleasure of spectators.
You asked about an ambiguous, unspecified hypothetical, so I chose one possible scenario. If you have a more specific question or a point you are making, try to be more clear.
Assuming no robots on either side, and assuming that the Arabs are still at war with us (chas v'shalom, it should never come to pass), the leadership would have to decide how many are needed to fight, along with the input from the Gedolim on spiritual matters. Obviously, I can't tell you the specifics of the hypothetical proceedings of the hypothetical leaders with the hypothetical Gedolim in this hypothetical scenario.
Why do the children of Chareidim lose their Judaism in the IDF while the children of the religious Zionists do not? Or is my assumption that the latter do not incorrect?
Because those who are stronger stay in Yeshiva and learn Torah. Learning is harder than Army service, but more important on a cosmic and long-term level.
Look, this war will end one way or another. Klal Yisroel needs to continue. If the entire country stops all of its endeavors to fight this war, there will be nothing to return to. The theater, technological advancement, and sports can wait. But learning cannot. If Yeshivos emptied to fight this war, there will be no turning back. It will be a בכיה לדורות.
Pardon me, can you explain what you mean by "Learning is harder than Army service"? The soldiers of Tzahal go through some of the most punishing training in the world.
If Slifkin's views ("strangeness of the mystical claim", among numerous similar statement in his other blog posts and books) are representative of the views of religious Zionists, they already lost their Judaism before joining the IDF, as they are what Chazal call "apikores".
I think the issue is the lack of standards to claims. Claims of a kind that would never survive scrutiny in a court (or beis din) are routinely lobbed around as perfect and unassailable in religion.
I don't know what it is called - but this lack of standards leads to an even worse distorting of reality. I think one can watch preachers "speak in tongues," as they are "possessed by the spirit," as an example of how, once standards are jettisoned, anything goes.
I'm sure there's a name for it. I will look in to it.
Anyway - it leads to a sort of fun, "mystical," kind of environment where all standards go, and whatever those with the most mystical authority tell us what is true and not true. And the proof? Nothing that passes any kind of objective standard.
The fix is in with all religions. If Judaism values work, but Charedi don't - Charedi presents its values as more authentic Jewish values. If Judaism values a martial tradition of fighting for safety, fighting in war, but Charedi don't want to do it - than Charedi values are presented as Jewish values.
If we are told that Torah study physically protects Jews - sure, why not? There are no real standards for determining truth that are built on logic. It's a tradition, and tradition is fact. Or, it's an assertion without evidence, but if a particular person says it - it is given the weight of fact.
On the other side, of course, are the many Jews who serve to protect Charedim from attacks in war.
And, that's as it should be, too. The charedim, I believe, if I understand correctly, demand this, and expect it. Logic is not a value in these "arguments."
This, again, to be fair, is true for all mass movements, and certainly all religions. I can add a personal story: I was newly religious, and in Dimona, with a secular friend and we got to talking to some Black Hebrews. I sat with one who argued with me how Judaism had it wrong, and the Black Hebrews had it right, that we could live forever with the right diet and spiritual attainment. We had a fun talk - and then my friend said "you're both crazy." We didn't let it bother us. And, their leader, Ben Ami, who was supposed to live forever, actually did pass away some years later. A lot of confusion followed, and then, back to the truth...we will live forever. That's how religion works. That's its allure, and its frustration. That's why I stayed, and that's why I left.
I do not believe I am qualified to answer your questions. I thought you were suggesting that the children of Chareidim “lose their Judaism in the army”. My mistake if you if you don’t, in fact, believe that.
I am in fact suggesting that this would happen if chareidim were called to serve in the army en masse, based on my intimate familiarity with the chareidi community, and based on the type of Judaism I am seeing from people who claim to be representative of the other communities.
That is what I thought you intended initially, which leads me back to my original question as to why Chareidim experience this problem but other observant communities do not seem to. I don't mean to be obtuse -- I am just trying to understand your thoughts on why you believe this disparity occurs.
How would I know that other observant communities do not lose their Judaism? Based on what I am seeing from people who claim to be representative of those other communities, they are far from what chareidim consider Judaism in the first place. How can you lose something that isn't there in the first place?
If you tell me that Slifkin is not in fact representative of those communities, and furthermore there is little difference in terms of ideologies between them and chareidim, then we have what to discuss.
I am not sure why you are referring back to R’ Slifkin. My question relates to a comment you made relating to the children of Chareidim losing their observance in the IDF. I am not questioning the accuracy of your point, but rather why this same phenomenon does not seem to affect the children of other observant communities.
Pay attention to my original comment. I said "*If you represent the Dati Leumi public*, it's easy to see why the chareidim consider them a different a religion, not Judaism. And it's easy to see why chareidim don't want to send their children to lose their Judaism in the army." Is this what you were responding to, or were you responding to something else that I did not say?
Either way, do you think that chareidim have the same religious ideology as the other observant communities you speak of? Or a very different ideology? If it is very different, that should answer your question.
It's not fair to blame the RZ community for Slifkin.
Every community has its amei haaretz, and nowadays, lack of knowledge about a topic is hardly a reason not to pontificate about it.
Slifkin represents the back bench of the RZ community, the poolish people, the equivalent in our community of those whose Judaism begins with Rebshayabenrebmoyshe and ends in the new shtreimel styles.
I don't know much about religious Zionists. I do know about Slifkin and he seems to indicate he is representing the religious Zionist ideology. Do you agree that he is?
No. Our Rabanim dont speak like that at all. He represents the far left of the dati world at least in ideology (even if he davens 3x a day and is קבוע עיתים).
I'm sorry. Can you explain what happened? Why is Rabbi Slifkin confused? I have read his blog posts and he seems thought out, if too left-wing for my tastes.
The whole point of charedism is that anything that doesn't come from the charedi world is suspect at best and more likely treyf. That explains their opposition to Zionism, science, secular knowledge, you name it.
And the closer things are to them, the *more* suspect and treyf it is. (This is a universal phenomenon, called "the narcissism of small differences," with obvious causes.) So religious Zionism is more treyf than secular Zionism; modern Orthodoxy is more treyf than Reform.
Long story short, no, any Torah learning not within their approved frameworks counts.
Why not fight hyperbole with hyperbole and have those who printed the brochure arrested for incitement to violence? Ben Yehuda was arrested for far less!
More seriously, it's sad that much of the Charedi world has deviated from careful use of language. In the בית מדרש every word is carefully scrutinized and analyzed. But in the field of politics, conflation and hyperbolic tone deafness are the rules of the game. But there's something sickeningly solipsistic of using the language of war during a real war to describe a political race of relatively minor consequence.
I agree, and already said earlier, fire must be met with fire. When Charedim are called "parasites" and accused of destroying the country, they have to push back twice as hard. The blog host here routinely uses filthy anti-Semitic language , including expressing the wish that Charedim should be debarred from participating in government, like Jews in Nazi Germany. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
You've lost the plot. I wrote "Why not fight hyperbole with hyperbole" and then wrote "More seriously". That didn't clue you in that I wasn't being serious?
Did you really think I accused the pamphleteer as inciting violence?
Why on earth do you think that any of this has anything to do with my alleged personal issues, as opposed to being exactly the same as every other person who is furious with the charedim?
Tell me, do you think the wording of that particular campaign was healthy and responsible? Do you think it is of the same spirit as its source in the מגילה which is describing a physical war that involved killing many many people? Was that choice of words the product of healthy deliberation or does it come across as sick?
What a bunch of b.s. about leaving Israel. Virtually no one will leave. Reminds me of all the "famous" people in the States who said they would leave the USA if Trump became president (in 2016). No one left.
And where would the Haredim go anyway? No country really wants us Jews!! This is the only really safe country for us.
With Trump, nobody left because their lives remained essentially unchanged. Even if he made good on his stupid, bombastic, ridiculous promises (like We Will Build a wall and Mexico will pay for it), none of them would have affected the lives of the people who threatened to leave. Hopefully, you are right and the same will happen with the chareidim.
Each person at their own level (and each community as well) should consider their actions with regard to the am hayoshev btzion in the context of כי אם־החרש תחרישי בעת הזאת רוח והצלה יעמוד ליהודים ממקום אחר ואת ובית־אביך תאבדו ומי יודע אם־לעת כזאת הגעת למלכות: bsorot tovot
There is a terrible manpower shortage of trained combat soldiers.
The Chareidim who are threatening to leave aren't serving anyway... so their leaving, which is mainly an idle threat anyway, will have no impact on the army
Ah, so you are saying whatever happens, chareidim are not serving anyways, and there is nothing that anybody can do to change that , and so it makes no difference if they leave or stay. In that case, what are you going to do about the terrible manpower shortage? Do you think Israel will survive.
At least the economy won't be drained when what? When you win the next election (for all of two months)? When the chareidim leave? When you expel them? What in the world are you even talking about?
I don't think that is correct. The threat of ALL charedim leaving is certainly hyperbole, if anyone even made such a threat. The real issue is the 18-25 age-group that will leave to avoid being drafted. There is no real discussion about drafting older charedim en-masse, even for miluim. So the rest will stay - they have no reason to leave - and they are the ones that are the main "burden" on the economy.
I feel terrible for you, yet I am happy that you have Emunah in Hashem that keeps you going in such troubled times. I hope the Arabs make peace and your burden is lightened considerably. Chodesh Tov to you also.
"(And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival.)"
I remember a charedi rav once reacting with horror at a comment that Noach (as opposed to Avraham) was a "tzadik in peltz," that is (nothwithstanding midrashim), a tzadik wrapped in a fur coat, concerned only with his only spiritual well-being and not that of civilization as a whole. Now, this is a long tradition in Jewish commentary: That Noach was great "b'dorotav," but (according to one view) wouldn't have been seen as great in another generation. (Others take the opposite view, saying that the word means he was great *even* considering his surroundings.) But the idea that someone could raise this as a critique horrified him. (And of course there's the charedi distaste for saying anything less than positive about anyone in Tanach.)
I suppose related are the charedi attempts- multiple- to explain away the well-known story of how the Maggid of Dubno gave mussar to the Vilna Gaon saying that he never left his home.
What is going onnnnn?! That the chief rabbi could say if they're forced to go to the army they would move abroad? That would literally be a secession to a different religion.
How so? The chareidim are a minority, and have outsized power due to the dynamics of coalitional politics and the fact that they are essentially a powerful special interest group
And the power of minorities, be it political or racial, has nothing to do with coalitional politics. In America - no coalitional politics - there is outright discrimination *in favor* of minorities.
Well that itself is a pretty good argument against democracy! But I was more getting at how overtly retarded propaganda aimed at getting people to vote is, and how corrosive this is to the moral and intellectual welfare of the people constantly subjected to it. One approach is to fight a constant uphill struggle trying to make all the participants in democratic politics adhere to basic standards of honesty, decency and sanity. But why not just cut the problem off at the source and remove the incentive to constantly pump craziness into people's brains?
Nachum, you make a good point. Democracy is not appropriate for chareidim, particularly for chassidim that see their rebbes as some sort of royal dynasty. But the Torah is quite clear that monarchy is the ideal system.
“It is 100% true that without the Torah, without spiritual existence, there is no Jewish People.”
And here, once again, is the rhetorical sleight-of-hand that is fundamental to Slifkin’s discourse. Did you notice it?
He will admit that “without the Torah, without spiritual existence, there is no Jewish People” – But what in the world does that have to do with the protection of learning Torah, which is the topic of the preceding quoted paragraph? He will never admit outright that learning Torah protects because he does not believe it – period. He just changes the discussion to “even according to you that Torah protects, there is plenty of Torah going on” but he himself will never say that HE BELIEVES learning Torah protects. Talk about sleight-of-hand!
And in case you had any doubt there’s this beauty: “And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival” – Right after saying that is plenty of Torah that can be learned in charedi yeshivos and kollelim in Israel by a few thousand elite charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation!
You stated that full time Torah students should teach what they learn to others. I have often felt this way and thought that their learning Torah only for themselves does nothing for Israel as a whole. So thank you for pointing this out.
I gave examples of kiruv organisations I don't think you get more *outside* than that.
And what is the percentage of dati leumi or modern orthodox teachers to the "rest of the nation", relative to the chareidim?Who would you like them to go teach?
Do you know any more history than you know zoology?
How do you definitively claim that there is more Torah learned today than any point in history? You have absolutely no clue how much Torah was learned at any point in history, or even how much is learned nowadays.
But ignorance is not a bug in the anti-Charedi movement, it is its defining feature.
Your mendacity does not amaze, but is unbelievable how unaware of it you seem to be.
It is obvious to you that learning and working are a contradiction. Yet, you claim that there is no need for Yeshivos' learning, there is plenty of learning outside of Yeshivos.
That there is more Torah learned today than any point in history is a very reasonable proposition, based on the historical sources that we have. It's unlikely that any objective observer would argue with that
I would ordinarily agree with you. However, we all have some knowledge of the history of Judaism. I cannot think of any time in history where we had so much Torah learning... from the time of chazal until 75 years ago. In Europe we certainly didn't. In the mizrachi countries we didn't. You will have to convince me that there was even ONE time when there was as much Torah learning as there is today.
How was learning pre-tach vetat? What happened afterwards? What went on before Haskala ravaged society, what changed then?
It is interesting to read about the early generations in America, when anyone wished to bring a yeshiva to town, the locals would cry, "it's not Europe here, we don't need Yeshivos!" When that generation was forgotten, the mantra became, "In Europe they also didn't learn too much."
A number of relevant sources and factors could be adduced. To give only two of them:
-In general, from an economic persepective, there were few people not working full-time, other than a few elite individuals
-The size of rabbinical schools (=yeshivas / batei midrash) in the time of Chazal has been studied, and they were quite small, until the geonic period, where the academies were somehwat larger, but still not that large. See, for example, Goodblatt; Gafni (summarized by Rubenstein here: https://jewish-faculty.biu.ac.il/sites/jewish-faculty/files/shared/JSIJ1/rubenstein.pdf), and
I didn't know that having 24,000 students was considered small. Or that a beis medrash that had to bring in 400 *additional* benches was small. Etc. Etc. Etc.
"Almost all of these attestations fall into one of four categories that complicate their use as evidence: (1) they appear in the stammaitic stratum of the sugya; (2) they appear in long Bavli narratives that bear signs of stammaitic reworking; (3) textual variants make the attestation suspect; (4) while the attestation does point to a situation of masters and disciples, it does not necessarily indicate an academy. "
So basically, the argument is that all those Gemaras that mention large yeshivos are fake. I am sure Zundel will accept this argument.
Read those articles. Their leitzonus is breathtaking. They create artificial bases, and build on that.
"By academy, Goodblatt meant an institution with a corporate identity that transcended the existence of the rabbis who constituted it at any given time.2 The Bavli typically associates Babylonian amoraim with the be rav or be rav ploni, which Goodblatt argued was a small disciple circle that gathered around an individual rabbi, presumably meeting at that rabbis house (hence the term be rav). When that rabbi died, or when the students decided that they had learned enough, they departed to another master or to gather students of their own."
Does he have the slightest clue how large that disciple circle was? How does he know? How can he know? Plain conjecture.
His misunderstanding of the idea of 'Stama'im' carries him through the rest of his nonsense.
Contemporary academics make a fetish out of the "stam". (aka the revadim). DWHaL etc. When you see words like "stammaitic stratum" its a sign to stay away.
Me, I treat the Academic approach like R. Meir to Acher. תוכו אוכל קליפתו זורק. The ones with a traditional yeshivah background knew enough to take the good ideas and disregard the shtus. But the ones who never knew anything except JTS didnt have enough sophistication to distinguish.
Those numbers are clearly hyperbole. The gemara itself makes this point about certain numbers in Tanach and Mishnah (see my piece here: https://www.ezrabrand.com/p/hyperbole-in-the-bible-and-the-mishnah), and later interpreters say it regarding many numbers in the Gemara itself (especially in the Stam, as another commenter mentions)
Quite possibly. I actually agree with you on that. But I'm trying to make the point that many others wont, and they are unlikely to accept dissertations from Profs. Gafni (either father or son) or any other scholar as authoritative.
"And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival"
People who believe in Divine Providence, who believe that G-d listens to our tefilos, who believe the many Chazals that Torah protects, shouldn't find this strange at all. If you represent the Dati Leumi public, it's easy to see why the chareidim consider them a different a religion, not Judaism. And it's easy to see why chareidim don't want to send their children to lose their Judaism in the army. If you really want chareidim to join the army, you should consider that this type of rhetoric has the opposite effect.
In your view, would Israel require an army if the entire country were Chareidy or would torah alone be enough to protect?
What does your hypothetical have to do with my comment? I am talking about the real word and you are bothering me with hypotheticals. What about the hypothetical when there is no State of Israel in the first place and we all live in chutz la'aretz?
I'll answer your question anyways. In the hypothetical of a country that is chareidi and run by chareidi leaders according to chareidi hashkafos, there would be a chareidi army.
So in this chareidy army, approximately what percentage or how many people would learn and approximately what percentage or how many people would serve in the chareidy army? How would you decide who does what? I would love to hear what everyone has to say on this.
In my ideal hypothetical chareidi futuristic army, all the fighting would be done by robots. I would prefer robotic spaceships for carefully targeted orbital strikes. The Palestinians will also have developed robots, so we will have a bloodless robots-vs-robots war, that will continue forever for the pleasure of spectators.
So should the Hesder Yeshivos not send to the army anymore either because their Torah would also protect ?
I was talking about a chareidi army. Are you changing the subject?
I did not ask you for your ideal hypothetical and you did not answer my question.
You asked about an ambiguous, unspecified hypothetical, so I chose one possible scenario. If you have a more specific question or a point you are making, try to be more clear.
Assuming no robots on either side, and assuming that the Arabs are still at war with us (chas v'shalom, it should never come to pass), the leadership would have to decide how many are needed to fight, along with the input from the Gedolim on spiritual matters. Obviously, I can't tell you the specifics of the hypothetical proceedings of the hypothetical leaders with the hypothetical Gedolim in this hypothetical scenario.
"The Palestinians will also have developed ..."
...nothing
Why do the children of Chareidim lose their Judaism in the IDF while the children of the religious Zionists do not? Or is my assumption that the latter do not incorrect?
Do you have any proof to your assertion?
Do the children of religious Zionists stay religious in greater percentages than the children of Charedim?
Btw, the weakest Charedim go to the army, all RZ go. So even if the numbers said anything, it would be quite meaningless.
"Btw, the weakest Charedim go to the army, "
Why?
Because those who are stronger stay in Yeshiva and learn Torah. Learning is harder than Army service, but more important on a cosmic and long-term level.
Look, this war will end one way or another. Klal Yisroel needs to continue. If the entire country stops all of its endeavors to fight this war, there will be nothing to return to. The theater, technological advancement, and sports can wait. But learning cannot. If Yeshivos emptied to fight this war, there will be no turning back. It will be a בכיה לדורות.
Pardon me, can you explain what you mean by "Learning is harder than Army service"? The soldiers of Tzahal go through some of the most punishing training in the world.
"Learning is harder than Army service".
Do clarify please? How many benei torah have been killed or injured from their activities (and I don't mean a splinter from their shtenders)?
I know one who has minyan factory obsessions for life thanks to his years in the Kollelim of Stamford Hill.
" If Yeshivos emptied to fight this war"
And if they don't empty? Suppose under those under fifty go and fight? What if there are shifts?
", there will be no turning back."
Turning back from what?
Those under fifty means emptying the Yeshivos. It means a generation will grow up without Torah be'iyun as its basis. And that is irreversible.
If Slifkin's views ("strangeness of the mystical claim", among numerous similar statement in his other blog posts and books) are representative of the views of religious Zionists, they already lost their Judaism before joining the IDF, as they are what Chazal call "apikores".
I think the issue is the lack of standards to claims. Claims of a kind that would never survive scrutiny in a court (or beis din) are routinely lobbed around as perfect and unassailable in religion.
I don't know what it is called - but this lack of standards leads to an even worse distorting of reality. I think one can watch preachers "speak in tongues," as they are "possessed by the spirit," as an example of how, once standards are jettisoned, anything goes.
I'm sure there's a name for it. I will look in to it.
Anyway - it leads to a sort of fun, "mystical," kind of environment where all standards go, and whatever those with the most mystical authority tell us what is true and not true. And the proof? Nothing that passes any kind of objective standard.
The fix is in with all religions. If Judaism values work, but Charedi don't - Charedi presents its values as more authentic Jewish values. If Judaism values a martial tradition of fighting for safety, fighting in war, but Charedi don't want to do it - than Charedi values are presented as Jewish values.
If we are told that Torah study physically protects Jews - sure, why not? There are no real standards for determining truth that are built on logic. It's a tradition, and tradition is fact. Or, it's an assertion without evidence, but if a particular person says it - it is given the weight of fact.
On the other side, of course, are the many Jews who serve to protect Charedim from attacks in war.
And, that's as it should be, too. The charedim, I believe, if I understand correctly, demand this, and expect it. Logic is not a value in these "arguments."
This, again, to be fair, is true for all mass movements, and certainly all religions. I can add a personal story: I was newly religious, and in Dimona, with a secular friend and we got to talking to some Black Hebrews. I sat with one who argued with me how Judaism had it wrong, and the Black Hebrews had it right, that we could live forever with the right diet and spiritual attainment. We had a fun talk - and then my friend said "you're both crazy." We didn't let it bother us. And, their leader, Ben Ami, who was supposed to live forever, actually did pass away some years later. A lot of confusion followed, and then, back to the truth...we will live forever. That's how religion works. That's its allure, and its frustration. That's why I stayed, and that's why I left.
I do not believe I am qualified to answer your questions. I thought you were suggesting that the children of Chareidim “lose their Judaism in the army”. My mistake if you if you don’t, in fact, believe that.
I am in fact suggesting that this would happen if chareidim were called to serve in the army en masse, based on my intimate familiarity with the chareidi community, and based on the type of Judaism I am seeing from people who claim to be representative of the other communities.
That is what I thought you intended initially, which leads me back to my original question as to why Chareidim experience this problem but other observant communities do not seem to. I don't mean to be obtuse -- I am just trying to understand your thoughts on why you believe this disparity occurs.
How would I know that other observant communities do not lose their Judaism? Based on what I am seeing from people who claim to be representative of those other communities, they are far from what chareidim consider Judaism in the first place. How can you lose something that isn't there in the first place?
If you tell me that Slifkin is not in fact representative of those communities, and furthermore there is little difference in terms of ideologies between them and chareidim, then we have what to discuss.
I am not sure why you are referring back to R’ Slifkin. My question relates to a comment you made relating to the children of Chareidim losing their observance in the IDF. I am not questioning the accuracy of your point, but rather why this same phenomenon does not seem to affect the children of other observant communities.
Pay attention to my original comment. I said "*If you represent the Dati Leumi public*, it's easy to see why the chareidim consider them a different a religion, not Judaism. And it's easy to see why chareidim don't want to send their children to lose their Judaism in the army." Is this what you were responding to, or were you responding to something else that I did not say?
Either way, do you think that chareidim have the same religious ideology as the other observant communities you speak of? Or a very different ideology? If it is very different, that should answer your question.
It's not fair to blame the RZ community for Slifkin.
Every community has its amei haaretz, and nowadays, lack of knowledge about a topic is hardly a reason not to pontificate about it.
Slifkin represents the back bench of the RZ community, the poolish people, the equivalent in our community of those whose Judaism begins with Rebshayabenrebmoyshe and ends in the new shtreimel styles.
You believe the religious zionists are not observant Jews?
I don't know much about religious Zionists. I do know about Slifkin and he seems to indicate he is representing the religious Zionist ideology. Do you agree that he is?
No. Our Rabanim dont speak like that at all. He represents the far left of the dati world at least in ideology (even if he davens 3x a day and is קבוע עיתים).
No, Slifkin is confused. He got himself into a hopeless situation that he never wanted to be in and is desperate.
I'm sorry. Can you explain what happened? Why is Rabbi Slifkin confused? I have read his blog posts and he seems thought out, if too left-wing for my tastes.
The whole point of charedism is that anything that doesn't come from the charedi world is suspect at best and more likely treyf. That explains their opposition to Zionism, science, secular knowledge, you name it.
And the closer things are to them, the *more* suspect and treyf it is. (This is a universal phenomenon, called "the narcissism of small differences," with obvious causes.) So religious Zionism is more treyf than secular Zionism; modern Orthodoxy is more treyf than Reform.
Long story short, no, any Torah learning not within their approved frameworks counts.
"This kind of hyperbole..."
Why not fight hyperbole with hyperbole and have those who printed the brochure arrested for incitement to violence? Ben Yehuda was arrested for far less!
More seriously, it's sad that much of the Charedi world has deviated from careful use of language. In the בית מדרש every word is carefully scrutinized and analyzed. But in the field of politics, conflation and hyperbolic tone deafness are the rules of the game. But there's something sickeningly solipsistic of using the language of war during a real war to describe a political race of relatively minor consequence.
I agree, and already said earlier, fire must be met with fire. When Charedim are called "parasites" and accused of destroying the country, they have to push back twice as hard. The blog host here routinely uses filthy anti-Semitic language , including expressing the wish that Charedim should be debarred from participating in government, like Jews in Nazi Germany. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
" When Charedim are called "parasites" and accused of destroying the country, they have to push back twice as hard."
So you endorse distorting a פסוק in תנ"ך as long as it's for a good cause? Did Bloch call Charedim parasites?
Regarding use of words ,there are loud minorities , in every sect.
Incitement to violence? You are clearly out of touch with the reality on the ground.
You've lost the plot. I wrote "Why not fight hyperbole with hyperbole" and then wrote "More seriously". That didn't clue you in that I wasn't being serious?
Did you really think I accused the pamphleteer as inciting violence?
As sickeningly solipsistic as activists and bloggers who make the entire war about their personal quarrel with chareidim? I think not. Not even close.
Why on earth do you think that any of this has anything to do with my alleged personal issues, as opposed to being exactly the same as every other person who is furious with the charedim?
Why would I think your grudge against chareidim has any effect on your making the entire war about chareidim? That's a strange question.
Tell me, do you think the wording of that particular campaign was healthy and responsible? Do you think it is of the same spirit as its source in the מגילה which is describing a physical war that involved killing many many people? Was that choice of words the product of healthy deliberation or does it come across as sick?
"But in the field of politics, conflation and hyperbolic tone deafness are the rules of the game."
Answer the question: "do you think the wording of that particular campaign was healthy and responsible? "
No. First answer my question. Why did you blatantly lie and slander the chareidim here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/deception-and-deflection/comment/50273432 ?
In fact, why are most of your comments lies?
Did I see somewhere a haredi threat ...
That if the draft exemption was repealed charedim would leave Israel. ?
Duh !!
Such a loss we could maybe cope with.
What a bunch of b.s. about leaving Israel. Virtually no one will leave. Reminds me of all the "famous" people in the States who said they would leave the USA if Trump became president (in 2016). No one left.
And where would the Haredim go anyway? No country really wants us Jews!! This is the only really safe country for us.
With Trump, nobody left because their lives remained essentially unchanged. Even if he made good on his stupid, bombastic, ridiculous promises (like We Will Build a wall and Mexico will pay for it), none of them would have affected the lives of the people who threatened to leave. Hopefully, you are right and the same will happen with the chareidim.
Each person at their own level (and each community as well) should consider their actions with regard to the am hayoshev btzion in the context of כי אם־החרש תחרישי בעת הזאת רוח והצלה יעמוד ליהודים ממקום אחר ואת ובית־אביך תאבדו ומי יודע אם־לעת כזאת הגעת למלכות: bsorot tovot
The Chief Rabbi (the one who wears a dress) himself.
How can you cope with the loss? Apparently there is a major manpower shortage.
You cant have it both ways.
Good point. I thought they absolutely need chareidim to serve for the survival of Israel because the army is otherwise too small.
There is a terrible manpower shortage of trained combat soldiers.
The Chareidim who are threatening to leave aren't serving anyway... so their leaving, which is mainly an idle threat anyway, will have no impact on the army
Ah, so you are saying whatever happens, chareidim are not serving anyways, and there is nothing that anybody can do to change that , and so it makes no difference if they leave or stay. In that case, what are you going to do about the terrible manpower shortage? Do you think Israel will survive.
There is a manpower shortage. The burden on everyone else will be mich higher. But at least the economy won't be drained.
At least the economy won't be drained when what? When you win the next election (for all of two months)? When the chareidim leave? When you expel them? What in the world are you even talking about?
I don't think that is correct. The threat of ALL charedim leaving is certainly hyperbole, if anyone even made such a threat. The real issue is the 18-25 age-group that will leave to avoid being drafted. There is no real discussion about drafting older charedim en-masse, even for miluim. So the rest will stay - they have no reason to leave - and they are the ones that are the main "burden" on the economy.
Is the manpower shortage existential or not?
Us Dati Leumis are not without strong Emuna in Hashem.
I believe Israel will survive, but we are already paying a very high price, and I fear for the price getting higher.
If the Hareidim chose not to serve, it comes down to:
כי אם־החרש תחרישי בעת הזאת רוח והצלה יעמוד ליהודים ממקום אחר ואת ובית־אביך תאבדו
Chodesh Tov
I feel terrible for you, yet I am happy that you have Emunah in Hashem that keeps you going in such troubled times. I hope the Arabs make peace and your burden is lightened considerably. Chodesh Tov to you also.
Thank you for this post.
The pain level of the Dati Leumi Torani population in Beit Shemesh is through the roof, as it is throughout the country.
We have a mayor who refuses to say a bad word about the Charedi population and yet she is accused of being the next Haman.
We have hundreds of boys drafted and many buried and yet the Charedi boys sit on highways and claim they'd rather die than serve.
We are truly facing an internal genocide. It's so sad that this is what the Charedi camp has deteriorated to. Complete and utter moral deterioration.
Approximately what percentage of chareidim roll their eyes when they see a sign like that and what percentage take it literally?
"(And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival.)"
I remember a charedi rav once reacting with horror at a comment that Noach (as opposed to Avraham) was a "tzadik in peltz," that is (nothwithstanding midrashim), a tzadik wrapped in a fur coat, concerned only with his only spiritual well-being and not that of civilization as a whole. Now, this is a long tradition in Jewish commentary: That Noach was great "b'dorotav," but (according to one view) wouldn't have been seen as great in another generation. (Others take the opposite view, saying that the word means he was great *even* considering his surroundings.) But the idea that someone could raise this as a critique horrified him. (And of course there's the charedi distaste for saying anything less than positive about anyone in Tanach.)
I suppose related are the charedi attempts- multiple- to explain away the well-known story of how the Maggid of Dubno gave mussar to the Vilna Gaon saying that he never left his home.
What is going onnnnn?! That the chief rabbi could say if they're forced to go to the army they would move abroad? That would literally be a secession to a different religion.
Fire must be met with fire. People like you exaggerate so badly and so often about Charedim, they have to give it back twice as hard.
You think this is a critique of Charedim, but actually it's a critique of democracy.
How so? The chareidim are a minority, and have outsized power due to the dynamics of coalitional politics and the fact that they are essentially a powerful special interest group
Sour grapes, and you know it.
And the power of minorities, be it political or racial, has nothing to do with coalitional politics. In America - no coalitional politics - there is outright discrimination *in favor* of minorities.
Well that itself is a pretty good argument against democracy! But I was more getting at how overtly retarded propaganda aimed at getting people to vote is, and how corrosive this is to the moral and intellectual welfare of the people constantly subjected to it. One approach is to fight a constant uphill struggle trying to make all the participants in democratic politics adhere to basic standards of honesty, decency and sanity. But why not just cut the problem off at the source and remove the incentive to constantly pump craziness into people's brains?
Democracy requires a certain population to handle it well.
Nachum, you make a good point. Democracy is not appropriate for chareidim, particularly for chassidim that see their rebbes as some sort of royal dynasty. But the Torah is quite clear that monarchy is the ideal system.
It's not just charedim who have a problem with democracy.
And that population is nowhere to be found.
In many parts of the world.
"Declaring that “the entire existence of Judaism” depends on her being ousted is nothing short of utter absurdity."
What is it about Israel that makes people so crazy? I thought the avir of E"Y was supposed to make people smart. Asking seriously...
“It is 100% true that without the Torah, without spiritual existence, there is no Jewish People.”
And here, once again, is the rhetorical sleight-of-hand that is fundamental to Slifkin’s discourse. Did you notice it?
He will admit that “without the Torah, without spiritual existence, there is no Jewish People” – But what in the world does that have to do with the protection of learning Torah, which is the topic of the preceding quoted paragraph? He will never admit outright that learning Torah protects because he does not believe it – period. He just changes the discussion to “even according to you that Torah protects, there is plenty of Torah going on” but he himself will never say that HE BELIEVES learning Torah protects. Talk about sleight-of-hand!
And in case you had any doubt there’s this beauty: “And all this is aside from the strangeness of the mystical claim that permanent full-time Torah study of charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation, has any effect whatsoever on Jewish national survival” – Right after saying that is plenty of Torah that can be learned in charedi yeshivos and kollelim in Israel by a few thousand elite charedi men cloistered in the charedi yeshiva world, who are not teaching Torah to the nation!
You stated that full time Torah students should teach what they learn to others. I have often felt this way and thought that their learning Torah only for themselves does nothing for Israel as a whole. So thank you for pointing this out.
Of course they do , who do you think teaches in the hundreds of yeshivas and kollelim?
Besides for the Kiruv organizations like Aish , Ohr samayech , neve yerushalayim amongst others , all started by chareidim.
Yeshivos and kollelim are *inside* the chatedi yeshiva framework. The percentage of charedim teaching the rest of the nation is minimal.
I gave examples of kiruv organisations I don't think you get more *outside* than that.
And what is the percentage of dati leumi or modern orthodox teachers to the "rest of the nation", relative to the chareidim?Who would you like them to go teach?
So you have changed the goalposts again, because why not? Fealty to source material isn't important.
Teaching others must be outside the framework. Because inside the framework is just different..........
Sadly, Dr. Bloch lost, if I saw the news correctly?
Do you know any more history than you know zoology?
How do you definitively claim that there is more Torah learned today than any point in history? You have absolutely no clue how much Torah was learned at any point in history, or even how much is learned nowadays.
But ignorance is not a bug in the anti-Charedi movement, it is its defining feature.
For most of history, men had to work for a living.
Your mendacity does not amaze, but is unbelievable how unaware of it you seem to be.
It is obvious to you that learning and working are a contradiction. Yet, you claim that there is no need for Yeshivos' learning, there is plenty of learning outside of Yeshivos.
That there is more Torah learned today than any point in history is a very reasonable proposition, based on the historical sources that we have. It's unlikely that any objective observer would argue with that
So basically - nothing.
Got it.
The defining feature, as I wrote.
OK, so just give us one example, just one, when historically there was more Torah learned than today.
I didn't make a definitive statement about things I cannot know.
But those who do, should have to back it up.
I would ordinarily agree with you. However, we all have some knowledge of the history of Judaism. I cannot think of any time in history where we had so much Torah learning... from the time of chazal until 75 years ago. In Europe we certainly didn't. In the mizrachi countries we didn't. You will have to convince me that there was even ONE time when there was as much Torah learning as there is today.
Sorry, but some things are just plain obvious.
Europe was not a monolithic situation.
How was learning pre-tach vetat? What happened afterwards? What went on before Haskala ravaged society, what changed then?
It is interesting to read about the early generations in America, when anyone wished to bring a yeshiva to town, the locals would cry, "it's not Europe here, we don't need Yeshivos!" When that generation was forgotten, the mantra became, "In Europe they also didn't learn too much."
Self-serving revisionist history.
A number of relevant sources and factors could be adduced. To give only two of them:
-In general, from an economic persepective, there were few people not working full-time, other than a few elite individuals
-The size of rabbinical schools (=yeshivas / batei midrash) in the time of Chazal has been studied, and they were quite small, until the geonic period, where the academies were somehwat larger, but still not that large. See, for example, Goodblatt; Gafni (summarized by Rubenstein here: https://jewish-faculty.biu.ac.il/sites/jewish-faculty/files/shared/JSIJ1/rubenstein.pdf), and
Levine,
https://www.amazon.com/Rabbinic-Class-Roman-Palestine-Antiquity/dp/0873341708.
Re yeshivot in the post-Talmudic era, see the Hebrew book by Breur:
Oholei Torah (The Tents of Torah): The Yeshiva, Its Structure and History
https://www.shazar.org.il/product/%D7%90%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%99-%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94/
So we know quite a lot, to be able to give a rough estimate of full-time learners
So Rabbinic schools is the only expression of learning possible in your tiny world.
You have nothing, diddly squat, absolute conjecture.
But you are sure of yourself, because why not?
I didn't know that having 24,000 students was considered small. Or that a beis medrash that had to bring in 400 *additional* benches was small. Etc. Etc. Etc.
"Almost all of these attestations fall into one of four categories that complicate their use as evidence: (1) they appear in the stammaitic stratum of the sugya; (2) they appear in long Bavli narratives that bear signs of stammaitic reworking; (3) textual variants make the attestation suspect; (4) while the attestation does point to a situation of masters and disciples, it does not necessarily indicate an academy. "
So basically, the argument is that all those Gemaras that mention large yeshivos are fake. I am sure Zundel will accept this argument.
Read those articles. Their leitzonus is breathtaking. They create artificial bases, and build on that.
"By academy, Goodblatt meant an institution with a corporate identity that transcended the existence of the rabbis who constituted it at any given time.2 The Bavli typically associates Babylonian amoraim with the be rav or be rav ploni, which Goodblatt argued was a small disciple circle that gathered around an individual rabbi, presumably meeting at that rabbis house (hence the term be rav). When that rabbi died, or when the students decided that they had learned enough, they departed to another master or to gather students of their own."
Does he have the slightest clue how large that disciple circle was? How does he know? How can he know? Plain conjecture.
His misunderstanding of the idea of 'Stama'im' carries him through the rest of his nonsense.
Contemporary academics make a fetish out of the "stam". (aka the revadim). DWHaL etc. When you see words like "stammaitic stratum" its a sign to stay away.
Me, I treat the Academic approach like R. Meir to Acher. תוכו אוכל קליפתו זורק. The ones with a traditional yeshivah background knew enough to take the good ideas and disregard the shtus. But the ones who never knew anything except JTS didnt have enough sophistication to distinguish.
Those numbers are clearly hyperbole. The gemara itself makes this point about certain numbers in Tanach and Mishnah (see my piece here: https://www.ezrabrand.com/p/hyperbole-in-the-bible-and-the-mishnah), and later interpreters say it regarding many numbers in the Gemara itself (especially in the Stam, as another commenter mentions)
Indeed, hyperbole is very common in the Talmud.
Quite possibly. I actually agree with you on that. But I'm trying to make the point that many others wont, and they are unlikely to accept dissertations from Profs. Gafni (either father or son) or any other scholar as authoritative.
מאידך, You have an army whose top brass and ראש הממשלה barely ever mention god