How can you say Chareidim--even generally speaking-- are against secular studies and are underemployed when nearly all chareidi girls get an excellent secular education and go on to have gainful employment? Combine that with the small percentage of men who obtain a secular education and/or are gainfully employed, and you have well over HALF the chareidi population in favor of secular education and gainful employment.
Why are you just discounting all these chareidi women and girls?
Are you a male chauvinist who severely undervalues women's contributions in society?
It's when lies and half-truths enter the picture that we know that the generalization is false.
For example - the so-called demand for a Charedi exemption from the army. That was never the Charedi platform, not since the early days of the State, and nobody has ever demanded that in the coalition negotiations. Charedim never believed that Charedim are exempt from army service. It is a canard pushed by the Kano'im and the anti-Charedim.
The only demand was an exemption for those who learn Torah, be they Charedim or non-Charedim.
But without lies, the platform falls apart. I guess אונס רחמנא פטריה
I don't have a problem with generalizations as a rule, of course it goes both ways, we can also generalize the mechallelei Shabbos, rabbit-eating "Jewish" secularist majority population, but the following comment from my good friend Mekarker is increasingly relevant. Don't forget to see the follow-up comments! 🤣🤣🤣
When people generalize about people in other categories than themselves, they should ask themselves the questions: who is my audience? What am I trying to achieve?
If the audience is people in your own group, and you want to be popular with them, then it is easiest to make broad generalizations about others. Pointing out how great you are and how not-great Others are is a sure-fire recipe.
If, on the other hand, you want to actually change the way other people think, then you need to see things from the perspective of that other person before formulating the argument. Otherwise the audience puts up defensive shields, and nothing - besides sinas chinam - will be accomplished. In general, people could work on this. I know that I always have to keep reminding myself!
What Chareidim object to is being treated with contempt and disrespect. Nobody should treat others with the kind of overt resentment and nastiness that is all too common when people have an axe to grind, or otherwise reject the "Other."
I'm very sorry, but the writer of this article seemingly never actually spent time with real Chareidim, and is completely and totally clueless about mainstream Chareidim in 2022 or 2023.
The biggest issue facing Chareidim these days is the utter disconnect between the leadership and the people.
The leadership are interested in producing ignoramus after ignoramus who not only has no secular education, has little Jewish education.
On the other hand, most (not all) of the Charedi people ( not only immigrants or בעלי תשובה) are interested in the ARMY and WORKING not kollel etc........
The author of this article should spend more time in many Charedi neighborhoods of ירושלים where almost everyone has a Smart Phone.
Please do not rely on media coverage which is completely and totally biased.
Rather someone should look at the facts on the ground as they are in actuality.
Just to be clear, I am not a Charedi myself and I have never been one. I am someone who tries to make up his own mind without being influenced by bias propaganda.
Ponovezh Yeshivah flies the Israeli flag on Yom Ha’Atzmaut. Ponovezh Yeshiva and at least one other yeshiva (hesder) fly the Israeli flag. Ergo, to say that “some Israeli yeshivos” (yeshivot?) fly the flag is true.
I don't disagree with any of this except for your use of "parasites". I know you were just using it in an example, but please consider using a less historically loaded term, especially for Jews! For example, "freeloader"
True - but then consider how much time haredi women spend way from work to have so many children. I am not making a right/wrong point, just saying that even factoring in female haredi participation in the workforce leads to a much lower economic contribution than is provided by the secular population.
First define the term If a chareidi is someone who quakes at Hashem's word, then one should also take into account many religious Zionists, but not those who wear black suits and hats but commit serious sins.
Hmm. It sounds like you are equating somewhat between charedim and charedi political parties. I think it would be difficult to prove that a majority of charedim "seek ways to get the rest of the country to finance their lifestyle".
How can you say Chareidim--even generally speaking-- are against secular studies and are underemployed when nearly all chareidi girls get an excellent secular education and go on to have gainful employment? Combine that with the small percentage of men who obtain a secular education and/or are gainfully employed, and you have well over HALF the chareidi population in favor of secular education and gainful employment.
Why are you just discounting all these chareidi women and girls?
Are you a male chauvinist who severely undervalues women's contributions in society?
It's when lies and half-truths enter the picture that we know that the generalization is false.
For example - the so-called demand for a Charedi exemption from the army. That was never the Charedi platform, not since the early days of the State, and nobody has ever demanded that in the coalition negotiations. Charedim never believed that Charedim are exempt from army service. It is a canard pushed by the Kano'im and the anti-Charedim.
The only demand was an exemption for those who learn Torah, be they Charedim or non-Charedim.
But without lies, the platform falls apart. I guess אונס רחמנא פטריה
I don't have a problem with generalizations as a rule, of course it goes both ways, we can also generalize the mechallelei Shabbos, rabbit-eating "Jewish" secularist majority population, but the following comment from my good friend Mekarker is increasingly relevant. Don't forget to see the follow-up comments! 🤣🤣🤣
http://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2022/09/more-tzedaka-shenanigans.html?showComment=1664481844402#c3832195196737315851
When people generalize about people in other categories than themselves, they should ask themselves the questions: who is my audience? What am I trying to achieve?
If the audience is people in your own group, and you want to be popular with them, then it is easiest to make broad generalizations about others. Pointing out how great you are and how not-great Others are is a sure-fire recipe.
If, on the other hand, you want to actually change the way other people think, then you need to see things from the perspective of that other person before formulating the argument. Otherwise the audience puts up defensive shields, and nothing - besides sinas chinam - will be accomplished. In general, people could work on this. I know that I always have to keep reminding myself!
What Chareidim object to is being treated with contempt and disrespect. Nobody should treat others with the kind of overt resentment and nastiness that is all too common when people have an axe to grind, or otherwise reject the "Other."
I'm very sorry, but the writer of this article seemingly never actually spent time with real Chareidim, and is completely and totally clueless about mainstream Chareidim in 2022 or 2023.
The biggest issue facing Chareidim these days is the utter disconnect between the leadership and the people.
The leadership are interested in producing ignoramus after ignoramus who not only has no secular education, has little Jewish education.
On the other hand, most (not all) of the Charedi people ( not only immigrants or בעלי תשובה) are interested in the ARMY and WORKING not kollel etc........
The author of this article should spend more time in many Charedi neighborhoods of ירושלים where almost everyone has a Smart Phone.
Please do not rely on media coverage which is completely and totally biased.
Rather someone should look at the facts on the ground as they are in actuality.
Just to be clear, I am not a Charedi myself and I have never been one. I am someone who tries to make up his own mind without being influenced by bias propaganda.
Ponovezh Yeshivah flies the Israeli flag on Yom Ha’Atzmaut. Ponovezh Yeshiva and at least one other yeshiva (hesder) fly the Israeli flag. Ergo, to say that “some Israeli yeshivos” (yeshivot?) fly the flag is true.
I don't disagree with any of this except for your use of "parasites". I know you were just using it in an example, but please consider using a less historically loaded term, especially for Jews! For example, "freeloader"
True - but then consider how much time haredi women spend way from work to have so many children. I am not making a right/wrong point, just saying that even factoring in female haredi participation in the workforce leads to a much lower economic contribution than is provided by the secular population.
First define the term If a chareidi is someone who quakes at Hashem's word, then one should also take into account many religious Zionists, but not those who wear black suits and hats but commit serious sins.
"It’s ironice"
Great post!
Hmm. It sounds like you are equating somewhat between charedim and charedi political parties. I think it would be difficult to prove that a majority of charedim "seek ways to get the rest of the country to finance their lifestyle".