This is hilarious. Mir Yeshiva has decided that it's finally safe for its students to return from the US to Jerusalem. And they write a letter to the parents saying, "Now that we see that it's safe to come back to Jerusalem, Torah protects!"
So let me get this straight. Torah doesn't protect when things are dangerous. But soldiers do. So tell me again why guys should be learning Torah instead of being soldiers?
i think you have a solid point. we are throwing around this line that torah protects too much. we really believe that it does, just like working is only hishtadlus to make money and the real reason is what we deserve from rosh hashana, but (almost) no one doesn't go to work because of that. so here too, practically, the army is very important. (incidentally, one of the questions which led me off the path back when was this very question: we say that hishtadlus isn't the real deal, yet we literally see how important it is)
i hereby retract my statement. even though the torah and teshuva is what really protects, practically we need to do hishtadlus, which is through the army and safety precautions. the reason chareidim don't join the army is because they want to be kulo Torah, especially during those formative years and going to the army would mess that up. we "justify" this (i put that word in quotes because it isn't merely a justification) by saying that there already is an army and what we need more of are ovdei Hashem. incidentally, that is our service and protection. but (a) we must treat it like that and strengthen our service to be as intense as if we were in the army (only moving forward slowly so that it is tenable) and this requires extreme honesty and intense self awareness. and (b) we should be more clear about which point is responding to which point. the reason we don't go to the army isn't actually because Torah protects, rather because we have a specific mission. it so happens that fulfilling this mission helps the cause and our true victory will come from strengthening our service of God, but at the same time this doesn't explain why we don't need to do hishtadlus when necessary, and the real answer is because we aren't as needed as you make it, and that we have very important (and yes, unselfish) things to take care of that proceed the obligation of going to the army
thank you Natan for showing me where i am going wrong
Where did they say "Now that we see that it's safe to come back to Jerusalem, Torah protects!"? Was that in a previous version of the page?
This is clearly an encouragement for nervous parents, Israel is certainly no safer than it was on October 7th. And by the way, if there was more unity rhetoric and less anti-unity rhetoric from the likes of yourself, this letter would hardly be necessary. I encouraged my American relatives in EY to stay, and they are doing so.
Says it right here. "And the Rosh Hayeshiva said that the special סייעתא דשמיא that תורה מגנא ומצלא these days to the Talmidei Hayeshiva is to those who Shteig in all sedorim and Tfilos of the Yeshiva including Friday and Shabbos."
Instead of playing amateur psychotherapist and second-guessing other people's deeply held beliefs, why not try to clarify your own beliefs?
In many previous post, you have claimed point blank that "Torah doesn't PRACTICALLY protect". In a recent post, you seemed to acknowledge that the merit of Torah protects (but mistakenly thought the chareidim don't possess this merit). In this post, you seem to be moving backwards toward the rejection of this belief. So it looks like you are deeply confused about your own beliefs. That's ok, but please don't project your own internal confusion onto others.
Regarding the underlying issue, the protection of Torah is not a chareidi belief, but a belief of Judaism, the same as belief in God, in God's control of the world, in reward and punishment, which is what Torah protection is in fact a subset of. See here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect It is something believed by all faithful Jews, whether litvish, chassidish, or dati, including soldier that are serving right now, see here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2 (but evidently not fake Anglo dati-lites).
One of your errors is in imagining it as some magical forcefield, when in fact, it is part of the Hashgacha of Hashem. This answers most of your "questions". However, if one rejects the Hashgacha of Hashem, he obviously won't believe in the protection of Torah. To understand the importance of bnei Yeshivos better, see here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-pleasant-it-is-when-brothers
It would appear that Rabbi Slifkin might weakly hold on to the belief that Torah protects, but wouldn't "bet" on it. That is to say, he would encourage people to learn Torah, but not at the expense of any safety precautions, and would encourage people to join the IDF over learning in Yeshiva.
You haven't really addressed most of Rabbi Slifkin's concerns. How does Torah protect? Who is protected? Clearly, it isn't everyone, all the time. Is it random? That's not a Jewish approach. Is it for individuals? Then that is "selfish protection," engaging in reward earnings that benefit just oneself as opposed to the wider Jewish community. Is it to those specific communities that engage in Torah learning? They still aren't protecting the wider population.
The fact is, we have army bases on the front lines, not yeshivas. Until that change, it doesn't appear that we "really" believe Torah protects.
Asking exactly how Torah protects is like asking exactly how God rewards and punishes. As we see in this week's parsha, the merit even protects רשעים. Nobody is "betting" on anything, just that Torah is an immensely valuable service, and with which the loss of, Israel would be much worse off.
But those ARE calculations that people need to make. All the time, we have to calculate the trade-off value and opportunity cost of investment decisions.
Merkava tanks are considered to be very useful. But we don't spend the entire defense budget on buying more and more Merkavas. We do cost-benefit analysis, and figure out when the opportunity cost of buying a new Merkava exceeds the benefit of it.
We don't do this for Torah learning. We don't say, "this is how much Torah learning is needed, after that we stop." But we know such a stop exists, because no one pours in quite literally every single resource out there to put in more Torah learning. Roads exist. Houses exist. Segulos exist. Those are all resources that could be put into more Torah learning. But we don't, because we know that such a stopping point exists.
That's something very, very changeable - we could have Chardei brigades, run according to strictest Halachic standards, with set up times to learn and guard.
I think we are heading there, which would be a great thing.
It bear pointing out, at this hectic time, that TG the large majority of time the army is NOT in the midst of war. There is training and other duties, but there is also plenty of down time. Maybe not a three-hour morning seder, but there is time to set up daily learning. The difficulty is not in changing schedules but in mindset, and from what I have seen, we are moving in that direction.
That would be a step in the right direction. It is the main issue which is ignored.
The problem however even here is that a secular government is in control and we are at their mercies...who knows what kind of restrictions they will make on any accommodations and when it will change....like with a new government...and then those soldiers are in trouble....but this is the first discussion before any other.
Nobody is spending the entire defense budget on Torah learning. While I am not privy to the internal cost-benefit analysis of the IDF, I know enough about cost benefit analyses in other aspects of the economy, and I find that they are almost all subjective judgement calls (except when the numbers overwhelmingly point one way or the other).
It is true that a cost-benefit analysis for yeshiva students is difficult, but it starts with people who actually value Torah study and Torah observance the same way they value Merkava tanks. That is why it is impossible to have such a conversation with people like Slifkin or other secularists. IYH at some point in the future, the military leadership will be largely composed of religious people who do value the Torah.
In the DL communities there are actual cost-benefit analysis being done. That is, there are multi-year long yeshiva programs that actually combine both Torah learning and army service. Heck, even Rabbi Slifkin's own children learn and serve.
That doesn't exist in the Charedi community. There is no sense of balance. It is all learn, no serve. Perhaps, you could argue that the Chiloni are also out of balance - they serve, but don't learn. But you can't point to bad behavior to justify the Charedi community's out-of-balance approach.
Also, subjective judgement calls happen when you get closer to equilibrium. We are obviously far, far away from equilibrium.
i really encourage people to see reb moshe's tshuva about college, yd vol. 4 siman 36 (mainly ois 10) for a view on the chareidi perspective. we need to have the option of "kulo torah" not torah mixed with army or college or other things
I would appreciate seeing such a actual cost-benefit analysis (as opposed to a vague "sense of balance"). As far as I can tell, Slifkin has never done any analysis, just constantly ridiculed the idea of Torah protecting, which is equivalent to ridiculing Judaism.
I don't think we are far from the equilibrium at all. Or alternatively, we are far from the equilibrium in the opposite direction that you believe.
If the author believes in the general phenomenon of Torah protection, where is *his* analysis of the parameters? Why is that only demanded from chareidim? Unless, of course, he is deeply confused about it, so doesn't bother with analysis.
Maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.
You are the one that claims 'torah protects' is a valid reason for benei torah not to participate at all in any relief effort, you are the one that needs to provide the parameters and the detail and deal with all the questions on it.
But here, every faithful Jew claims Torah protects, not just chareidim. So if any analysis is required, it is required by everybody, not just chareidim. To the contrary, it is those who want to draft the bnei yeshivos (not just chareidim) who should demonstrate that this is necessary.
Classic whataboutism. Chazal have already told us clearly when shechiach hazeikah you cannot rely on torah and mitzvos protect (as you don't get it, in words of one syllable not that torah doesn't protect, you cannot rely on it). Some sources are in Natan's article about when you can actually rely on it.
And nobody is calling for a complete draft of benei yeshivos anyway.
That means that you can't rely just on your merit. But nobody is doing that. I'm glad nobody is calling for a complete draft of bnei yeshivos, where's the parameter-based analysis of how many bnei yeshivos are optimal?
You keep citing gemara sources and appealing to "basic Judaism", "normative Judaism" etc to back up your claim. Do you have any *other* evidence for "Torah protects" besides your faith-based beliefs? Any at all?
You are asking for better evidence than God communicating something to us unambiguously? The evidence for this is about as good as the evidence that the Jews have any right to the land of Israel in the first place (which is why atheists are almost universally anti-Israel). If you don't subscribe to the Torah, this whole IDF conversation is moot, and we should be packing out of there effective immediately.
Yeah I'm asking for evidence that establishes a clear causal relationship between Torah learning and protection. If this protection effect was real, and was really as good (or better) than military service, then people would notice. Chareidim wouldn't have to extort the government for money; the govt would be begging for more to learn in Kollel.
The fact that this protection is absolutely invisible to absolutely everyone except people who are pre-committed to the belief (because they think the belief is *required* by their religion!) is very telling.
The main issue for many orthodox Jews is the spiritual atmosphere of the army, the halachic problems and temptations...this is the main issue that is being ignored and must be addressed seriously.
It is not addressed because no one is interested in accommodating. They even acknowledge that it would harm the Chareidi way of life. So they basically say too bad. They never suggested a way forward.
However, see the first comment from ZD over there who makes the point that it is not necessarily as problematic as Honest Levi (and Slifkin!) is saying.
According to some Gedolei Torah yeshiva boys have an obligation from the Torah to serve.It is forbidden not to serve. Start from there and look for a few special cases that allow yeshiva boys not to serve. Also note we are dealing with פיקוח נפש which you treat with a casual non significant esoteric approach as if you can estimate , control,and manage G-d and his Decisions. The whole Torah is a zechut for G-d's interference on our behalf. But we follow the דרך הטבע for so he decreed,basic Judaism.Then we pray and learn . Note there are older and younger people to learn. He decides, not you.
It is necessary for Chareidi Rabbonim to consult with Tzahal as to how many yeshiva boys can be released from army service without endangering everyone's life. Just as we consult expert doctors as to what medical treatment to employ and regarding surgery .Before we make halachic
decisions that involve life and death or possible destruction of one's health.
.For example regardingHalachic matters such as
fasting on Yom Kippur, and other decisions that involve life and death etc..
דרך הערה אמרו כי נר מצוה ותורה אור תלה הכתוב את התורה באור לומר לך מה אור מאיר לעולם אף תורה מגינה לעולם ר"ל שמשפיע לזולתו ומקיים את הישוב בחכמתו ואומר בהתהלכך תנחה אותך בשכבך תשמור עליך והקיצות היא תשיחך בהתהלכך תנחה אותך זה העוה"ז בשכבך תשמור עליך זה יום המיתה ר"ל לעולם הבא והקיצות היא תשיחך לעתיד לבא ר"ל תחיית המתים ותלה את המצוה בנר לומר לך מה נר אינה מאירה אלא לפי שעה כך מצוה אינה מגינה אלא לפי שעה ר"ל שכל שאין דעתו עליה נשאר ערום אבל מי שזכה לחכמה אינה זזה ממנו
That doesn't say what Slifkin thinks it does (I believe he mistranslates the world לעולם), and which doesn't make sense in the context of the Gemara there at all, but either way, you have inspired me to write an IM post!
אלא אמר רבא תורה כו' בעידנא דלא עסיק אגוני מגנא כו'. ק"ק דאכתי כיון דמגנא לעולם למה מתו דואג ואחיתופל קודם זמנם כדאמרינן פרק חלק אמאי לא הגינה תורה עליהם וי"ל דלא קאמר תורה מגנא אלא מפורעניות ויסורין ולא ממיתה וק"ל:
We all agree that we need to do hishtadlus. We live in this world which is designed to work in a certain way. In this matter there seems to be a small divide, where the "rationalists" say that it's real and the "chareidim" way is just a smokescreen. But either way we all agree that we can't ignore this world.
But here's what the chareidim believe: our job is to serve God, nothing else. The rules for that are clear in the Torah prescribed by God. He wants us to toil in Torah and get close to Him. To serve Him with all our heart and all our soul. It is very hard to do this outside of the beis midrash. Even a baalabos is to learn many hours a day, and learning is supposed to be the main focus of his life. Those who don't appreciate learning think there is some other value at play. According to the chareidi, there isn't. Now, this doesn't mean everyone has to be reb Elyashiv. The fraction of gedolei Torah who leave yeshiva may be one in a thousand. But already by learning in yeshiva for a few years, the appreciation is there. For the rest of that yeshiva boy's life, he loves nothing more than a talmid chacham and loves nothing more than the hours he spent and spends learning and mastering some of God's word. This chinuch does not come from anywhere else in the world, except when, if only for a few years, one is immersed in God's laws and it's tedious yet beautiful intricacies. If he needs to be in the army at 18, when will he learn to appreciate the Torah?
This is a chareidi value. The chareidi value. Anyone who doesn't appreciate this is an outsider.
The non chareidi calls this selfish. But the chareidi says this is what God wants of us and this is what makes us Jews. This is the key to our continuity.
The ramifications of this are glaring. We're not going to give this up so easily. Because we feel this is what God wants we only leave the beis midrash with a heavy heart. During war time and the line we strengthen our avoda.
But what does an outsider see? simple: ignore this background ideology and what are we left with? A bunch of people telling other people that nothing important matters.
The chareidi will tell you that those things do matter, just not as much as this other value. But to those who don't have this value in their psyche, they just hear the echo of what's "not" important instead of what we say is just ''less" important.
If God wants us to learn and be closer to Him and He says to do this as a life's mission, are we to argue? But it course it doesn't need to be at the expense of other things but who are we missing, focus on one thing is always at the expense of another thing. So we'll keep focusing on God and you'll keep focusing on the army and we'll all be good
'We all agree that we need to do hishtadlus. We live in this world which is designed to work in a certain way. In this matter there seems to be a small divide, where the "rationalists" say that it's real and the "chareidim" way is just a smokescreen. But either way we all agree that we can't ignore this world.'
Let me offer another view here: What we do in this world to help make it a better place is not "hishtadlus". It is the real thing and in fact a main purpose of Mitzvos. You are given free will and you can do good or bad things with it. When you do good things, it helps and when you don't it doesn't and when you do negative things it makes the world worse and causes bad things to happen to others. That *is* the system created by God and your bitachon is that if you do your best at doing good things, that is most likely that you will help the world. Lack of bitachon is when you find an excuse not to fix things in the real world because you know that there are always larger forces in play that could make your hard work fail.
The point of this post is that model of the world is actually one that everyone uses. No one gets up in the morning and doesn't eat, waiting to see if they will starve to death before they decide they need to do "smokescreen hishtadlus" and eat something. But when it comes to things that maybe people don't want to do for one reason or another, they find reasons to call that thing "hishtadlus" and therefore just a smokescreen, let someone else do it, while I do the "real" thing which just so happens to be what I like doing anyhow.
The main issue being ignored is the danger of falling in frumkeit...and yiras shamayim and doing sins in the army chv.
The army is run by the government which is secular. This is a very real danger and the biggest concern. (Read Slifkins daughters piece on this...she is there and admits) This is the biggest problem of all.
I'm not ignoring that - I will be discussing it in a different post. It's one of the central issues. This post is specifically designed to point out the fake issues, so that we can get to the real ones.
In all your many discussions, I have never seen a serious discussion about tfillah and emunah and halacha and teshuva...unless it is spin against some group. You did write that what happened on Oct 7th won't happen again, which is a light-weight Jewish idea. Sure, we will try as hard as we can to prevent it but we are not G-d.
My point is this. If you were serious about more sincere Judaism, .....AND THEN....you discussed your outlook for an ideal Judaism...and ideal Israel....I would listen. I admire chardalim or whatever they are called...they are excellent Jews...but that is NOT you.....you are a washed-out Jew...and therefore your ideas are washed out...they are not coming from a Jew with the spirit and fire of Judaism in him...and therefore whatever you say is not to be taken seriously.
Again, your ideas come from you. And you are a washed-out Jew. Therefore, your ideas are not relevant.
You have Chutzpah. RNS is talking about a serious matter,the Army. Maybe you haven't noticed we are at war. He is not going to give a shiur on Amunah and Tefillah. We have much of that but little serious discussion about the need for soldiers and Chareidi non
participation in that area under the guise of dedication to Torah.
There may be a disagreement over the best way to implement these values, how elitist we should we make the תורתו אומנתו system, but the values are substantially the same.
whoops, didn't mean to exclude them. slifkin was talking about chareidim so i refer to them. in my book the true DL's are not so different from chareidim.
i really encourage people to see reb moshe's tshuva about college, yd vol. 4 siman 36 (mainly ois 10) for a view on the chareidi perspective. we need to have the option of "kulo torah" not torah mixed with army or college or other things
Rabbi S, I'm having a difficult time understanding why this is the crux of the discussion. The Haredim believe - genuinely - that the study of Torah is their life's work. That's what God asks of us, in their interpretation. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of sources to this end, that we do what God wants and He'll take care of the worldly stuff. See Brachot 35b. We believe that they take it too far and expand this vision to too many people (every group does that).
Personally, I am not Hareidi, and my teachers taught me more responsibility to the world at large, and more connection with the world at large. But they also taught that the select few who could learn full time and become great Rabbis and dedicate themselves to pure Torah study, should do so, because that is even better, for those few elite.
I'll admit that the Haredi approach seems to produce more of this elite group, but many, many more are lead astray, which is why my rabbis taught us the importance of responsibility and being involved in the world.
My issue with Haredim is that they take it too far. But to question if they genuinely believe it, of course they do! And for good reason.
"Yo", the point you raise is a good one and I will discuss it in a different post. This post is only dealing with the claim that they believe that Torah protects.
Source for many more lead astray? My understanding is that the statistics say the opposite, that Dati has many more who go OTD? Although I believe that is based on people who self-identify as Datiim, and you might have a stricter criteria.
By astray i mean wasting a lot of time and not doing their service of God as needed. I'm not saying that they're bad even. I'm just commenting on the fact that they preach to the top tier, which not everyone is capable of. From what I understand, in America it is more acceptable to begin on the top tier and then find your place later. In Israel everyone in the Haredi community thinks they are that top, and when they aren't they have no other options. I don't mean to bash them; I was just explaining why my teachers taught the two options. Although I wonder how many people would join the top ranks if that were stressed more, as I wrote above.
I think continual attendance at a late shacharis (and the provision of 'minyan factories') is being 'led astray' in terms of what charedism is supposed to represent. Official minyonim at 11AM on chol hamoed (and no, they are not intended for people whose wives gave birth the night before) is a people led astray.
And your response to this is mockery, which shows you do not have a proper answer.
My response has always been that you project your own laziness and experience onto others, the vast majority of bnei yeshivos are not davening at 11. Go back to your coffee room.
Im fed up with your constant flow of negativity get a life....stop focusing on others and look inwardly....eg perhaps filtering your phone better, learning more being nicer enough with this fixation on battering the chareidim-----however justified u think u are just open your eyes and question why You of all people have decided to be fixated on them....your fetish for the degradation of charedim is clearly charged by your book banning...im unsubscribing from this because im fed up with your constant negative barrage....
And an indepth analysis of how the army impacts people's religiosity. How much do people tend to fall? Are there sinful temptations? What kinds of people leave there without sacrificing their judiasm...and how much do they struggle? What about people who aren't too stable to begin with?
Do the higher ups in the army look down on halacha observance? Are they accommodating but uncaring? Are they supportive?
Do frum soldiers undergo harassment or are they looked down upon?
Do the religious people in the army take their religion seriously or they let it slide?
What areas of halacha are most in danger? Kedusha issues? How much worse are kedusha issues for girls who are the object of temptation vs boys who undergo temptation but not to that degree?
How many girls leave the army without any sexual misconduct? What about boys?
Are there spiritual advisers and helpers...frum jews with enough passion for Torah who themselves aren't weak in Torah spirit and knowledge
to help and guide?
How difficult is proper shmiras shabbos for such a setting? How difficult is keeping kosher properly? These and many more questions must be analyzed before jumping into what might be a pit of sin.
These types of questions are far and away the most important
for any orthodox Jew before anything else.
Whenever this issue comes up, slifkin ignores all this...which makes zero sense since it is the main issue ...its step one..and he blocks it out and jumps to other things.
"There are several halachic statements about the obligation to serve in a Jewish army for the purpose of Milchemes Mitzvah. (Not that Rabbi Slifkin has demonstrated that he has done any research whatsoever regarding the practical applicability of this obligation in modern times.) At any rate, Rabbi Natan Slifkin wants to turn this into an immediate halachic obligation for all Chareidim to serve in the army and contribute to the economy. Furthermore, he expects all other Jews - even the Anti-Zionist Jews - to accept this. He even compares our situation today to that of an active Arab-Israeli war such as in 1948 in the Jerusalem Post:
And to which kinds of circumstances is it referring? Who says that it applies to the situation of today, with regard to an existential threat from our enemies? ……As Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin, in a classic article on the drafting of yeshiva students (translated in Tradition, Fall 1985), wrote: “If you understand that the scholars don’t need protection in relatively peaceful times and are exempt from building the protective walls, what consequence has this when compared to a life-and-death struggle, a war which is a mitzvah and in which all are obligated?”
Well, as a religious Jew who might be forced to send his religious sons to a secular army, and who is (as a taxpaying citizen) sharing the financial burden of those in academia, I think that we have a right to know the parameters of this obligation. If you're claiming that it is a concrete chiyuv, which obligates us to close our gemaras and expose sons and daughters to a virulent secular environment, while others serve in cushy army radio divisions or the Intelligence Corps unit 8200 instead, then I think that you should provide some concrete specifics."
============
A response to something you wrote just over a decade ago. I suppose you'll do a re-re-post of this in 2033, yes?
I'm still very surprised by your seeming heresy (by the standard that you seem to want to meet) every time you ask that. Not that I would think less of you or anyone else for their religious beliefs, but it doesn't fit your the self-image you seem to be trying to project.
You're welcome to think whatever you like about what 'self-image I'm trying to project.' I don't think it's particularly relevant to anything, but maybe that's just a coping mechanism, or whatever other pablum Dr Slifkin comes up with in his next post.
On the one hand you come across as frum. But then you mock what pesukim that we read twice a day say explicitly and directly is a blessing from God (and its opposite an indication of dissatisfaction kaveyachol) that we will get a lot of produce from the land as though it is something silly to be very thankful for. It confuses me.
The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, so they approached the lion.
As they approached the lion on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ′′Your Highness, isn’t it true that the grass is blue?”
The lion replied: “If you believe it is true, the grass is blue.”
The donkey rushed forward and continued: ′′The tiger disagrees with me, contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him.”
The king then declared: ′′The tiger will be punished with 3 days of silence.”
The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating ′′The grass is blue, the grass is blue…”
The tiger asked the lion, “Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?”
The lion replied, ′′You’ve known and seen the grass is green.”
The tiger asked, ′′So why do you punish me?”
The lion replied, “That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is degrading for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with an ass, and on top of that, you came and bothered me with that question just to validate something you already knew was true!”
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn’t care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions.
Never waste time on discussions that make no sense. There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand.
Others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t.
"There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand."
You mean the evidence from Har Nof, Chevron and Meron that torah doesn't protects? Or the evidence from Yackov Oveinu who was petrified of Eisav? Or all the gedolim who use refridgerators and don't rely on torah protects to protect them food poisoning? That sort of evidence?
Find me one comment Joyous ever posted in which he says the IDF is a waste of time. Nowhere. You totally made that up. He just responded to another comment of mine here where you can see his opinion clearly even with an IQ of 70.
But seeming that you agree with me somewhat, lets lay down the facts:
God protects the Jews - הנה לא ינום ולא יישן שומר ישראל
But the Holocaust. obviously he protects, but he has his Cheshbonos.
Torah protects, תורה מגין ומציל. obviously meaning that it is a merit for protection that danger won't even be brought upon in the first place.
But Meron, Har nof, and Mercaz HaRav. So Hashem must have his Cheshbonos.
With me so far?
Ok. So what do we do when Hashem has his Cheshbonos?
The basic understanding is that when Hashem has his Cheshbonos, he turns us over to the mercy of טבע. We always need to do our hishtadlus, always, and even more at such a time. But even then, we need the merit of torah to protect us, as always.
What's the solution? We need Torah, and we need the IDF.
Well, the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz quoted the principle of אלף למטה אלף למטה. Both are needed. So who does what?
Option # 1 - Chareidim go the the IDF and the irreligious sit and learn.
Option # 2 - Irreligious go to IDF and Chareidim sit and learn.
PLUS
Option #2.0 - option 2 plus DL mainly joining IDF and RZ splitting their years with hesder.
So RZ also agrees that אלף למטה but they split it among themselves. Chareidim don't do it because the Government won't accommodate, as Slifkin says it would harm their way of life. So although it would be nice to send the one's who don't learn but it's not super practical.
What will be in the future if Chareidim grow? Well, maybe the army would be ready to accommodate to Chareidi sensitivities since they'd actually need them, and that leverage will help. So that's with the whole "share the burden" thing.
By the way did anyone notice that the "Notorious" Rav Zilberstien allowed Chareidim to Join the Police force in Bnei Brak since they are low on cops now? He just said to keep it to those not fully learning. I guess he doesn't either believe in Torah protecting?
In other words, we cannot PRACTICALLY rely on "torah protects" because today might be a 'day of hester ponim' or a day where "Hashem has his cheshbonos that we do not understand". Instead, per yourself, we have to operate in a framework of tevah, where every little bit helps.
And therfore TODAY we should be having a serious discussion about how chareidim can assist more with the national effort. Not 'closing the yeshivos', not 'drafting all benei yeshivos', just a serious discussion as the starting point.
But chareidi leadership will not have that discussion, because the reason why chareidim do not contribute is nothing to do with 'torah protects' anyway. It's to do with politics, culture, fear of assimilation, everybody knows that. As everybody knows.
I'll have to rephrase that a drop. We practically cancel Bein hazmanim when the war broke out, and we still make sure to learn since Torah protects.
Th reason we are not having a serious conversation is because all sides want it their way. The Army doesn't want to change anything, and when this all started it was all out war. Yes, if it wasn't like that in the beginning things would be a lot calmer. but much damage needs to be reversed. And no one is doing it. The anti Chareidi are doing the same as they always did, not caring a drop about chareidi sensitivities and insisting the army will remain the same. So a serious discussion is not PRACTICAL now.
" It's to do with politics, culture, fear of assimilation" . Yes. What do you suggest? "Too bad" like the rest of the secular? "Serious conversation"? With people who want an all equalizer?
In the meantime Gedolim are encouraging everyone to learn and since they are doing a tremendous help for all of am yisrael, and ignore those that don't since that's a separate matter.
In 48 much more chareidim helped out since this area of tension didn't start yet.
I agree with you that the army is important and necessary. But in posts such as these, you seem to be placing your entire faith in the army, as opposed to Hashem, which is in total contradistinction to everything we know from the Torah and Chazal. Similarly, I hardly (if at all) see you place any importance on prayer, repentance, and tzedaka. My impression from reading your posts is that you believe if you can physically see the effect of something, then that's what works, and everything else is secondary *at best*. Irrespective of what Charedim think and whether or not they are consistent, this is clearly antithetical to the view of the Torah and Chazal. I believe until you demonstrate an understanding of this, your posts will continue to cause disunity (something not needed ever, let alone during this time), and will not be remotely persuasive to the audience you are trying to persuade.
What I'm presenting is the traditional Jewish approach, which also happens to be the charedi approach in every single area other than IDF service. You do the exact same material effort that everyone else does, and you davven for success.
But what role does Hashem, praying for success, repenting, etc. have in the battle? My general impression from your writings, and the impression of many others, is that these are mere side notes. This is not the traditional Jewish approach. If I am misinterpreting your opinion, it's because of your failure to emphasize their importance in any of your writings.
But you ought to know that this is not the traditional Jewish approach. Traditionally, Jews have had very different material approaches than the goyim/meshumadim. For example, Shemitta. Or not working on Shabbos. Just refusing to convert to Christianity was a huge material lack of hishtadlus. Or more recently, staying in Kollel for many years. Yep, emunah is am eminently PRACTICAL part of our lives.
And this is even for secular Zionists! What part of the founding of the state of Israel was "exactly like everybody else"? It was a foolhardy endeavor that miraculously succeeded (so much so that this is your only acceptable "proof" for Judaism!)
And certainly in our case where you have not demonstrated any negative material impact from chareidim not serving, just complaints about fairness (as if you can't do exactly the same as chareidim).
I'm sure you will get a lot of flak for this, but I actually think you did a good job attempting to get to the roots of chareidi ideology. I have long felt that the motto of chareidim is אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי. Living as we do without a סנהדרין, נביא,או"ת, מלך, בעלי המסורה, and not even any authentic acharonim, we are full of ספיקות and must constantly apply the rules of אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי ושוא"ת עדיף.
Is it possible and even probable that the current invasion of Gaza will bring a few years of peace? (ואגב, ע' לח"מ מלכים ה' סוף הלכה א' דכה"ג חשיב מלחמת רשות) Perhaps, but it is still a ספק, and we certainly can't trust the current heads of the state and army with making this decision.
What we do know for certain is that Klal Yisroel survived thousands of years goluyos, outlasting all their enemies, though they hardly ever took up arms, and when they did it often had disastrous consequences (e.g the Biryonim, Bar Kochva, and perhaps the Zionist endeavor). The only time Klal Yisroel came close to being extinguished was when the Nazis almost completed the job started by the maskilim, the Zionists and the Communists. If not for the ישיבות הקדושות all Jews may have turned out like the partygoers in בארי, ה"י.
So yes, when there is a clear sakana we will do some hishtadlus to protect ourself, but only the minimun necessary without interfering too much with the yeshivos.
P.S. I am not insinuating that chareidim are perfect. I think all of Klal Yisroel has much to learn from each other. I am just explaining their core ideology.
what can very likely happen after this is over, listening carefully to political discourse, is that a lot of Jews may be forced to leave their homes to accommodate the oppressed Palestinians. whether correct or not (my personal opinions not important), that is what the leaders of the world are insinuating. not only will bibi's power wane for obvious reasons, but perhaps the entire Israeli power will be diluted to make room for the Palestinians. without Hamas, it may not be so dangerous (I hope to God that is so), but if this happens, it will definitely affect a whole lot of people. there's a lot to worry about. we don't know the future but we can make guesses to realize that things will never be the same, and therefore we should never thing things are just the same.
It seems to me that most chareidim indeed do not believe Torah alone protects. They believe that Torah combined with hishtadlus of an army protects just like you - Rabbi Slyphkin believe. The reason why they don't join the army is because they feel there is enough army members without them and they can make the easier contribution of Torah learning with the harm to their way of life. Chareidim are not fools. When and if the time comes that they are needed for the army they WILL join. They will even go against the gedolim if necessary.
I remember when i was learning in BMG in Lakewood Chris Christie was running for governor against incumbent John Corzine. John Corzine was a democrat and so pro toeiva. Chris Christie was a republican and so was anti toeiva. I personally saw Rav Malkiel Kotler hang up a sign in Yeshiva to vote for John Corzine. This major source of sock and disbelief in the Lakewood community as Rav Malkiel seemed to "sell out" for the money John Corzine promised over the proper hashkafa. The overwhelming Majority of Lakewood ignored Rav Malkiel and voted for Chris Christie who won by 86,714 votes. With a population of 130k, It possible that the Lakewood vote made the difference.
Rabbi Slifkin - Do you clarify the parameters of your beliefs? Do you believe Torah provides ANY protection? How about Tsuvah? Tefilah? Charity? Do you not say תְשׁוּבָה וּתְפִלָּה וּצְדָקָה מַעֲבִירִין אֶת רֹעַ הַגְּזֵרָה,? Can we get a study showing the impact of each? Seems to me that this is where the rationalist train drives strait out of Judaism.
I agree that this is the real reason. It is similar to the halacha in Shulchan Aruch that when we are mechalel Shabbos for pikuach nefesh we happily do it ourselves without shinuim - but if there is enough time then we only do it through a goy or try to be mimimize the melachos as much as possible. Same thing here - as long as the army can function without yeshiva students, they should contribute by learning (which they DO believe helps), but if everyone is really needed to fight - that is a different story.
The problem with this argument is that it only applies to the standing army and not to the reserves, which is the overwhelming majority in an active war (350k currently deployed). You can't argue that 500k-1mm additional reservists are not needed (or will never be needed). What if this war escalates to a two-front war, or worse if Iran gets directly involved? There needs to be some kind of arrangement that will allow the majority of charedi men to be in the reserves - perhaps with very limited initial service/training and maybe only over 25 etc.. I have no illusions that this will satisfy Slifkin and his fellow haters, but they will never be Happy (or Joyous) anyway....
In the majority of these "what-if" scenarios, chareidim will not make the difference. For example, if you argue that we need another 1M reserves, 300% of the current forces, you ain't getting anywhere close to that from chareidim. And what if there is a two front war and you need 2M? And what if Iran drops a nuke? And what if Egypt gets involved? And what if Russia gets involved? And what if WW3 happens? It is precisely for these totally unpredictable,unquantifiable "what-if" scenarios that we trust in Hashem.
That said, I could definitely see the appropriateness of some minimal level of training for everyone.
I basically agree with you, but I think if the time came that Chareidim were needed by the numbers, they would be able to have the advantage to demand the army accommodate to the religious sensitivities they'll expect to get. I think the Gedolim would approve.
As for the story in Lakewood, firstly in Rabbi Kotlers defense, (although I disagree anyway,) he wouldn't consider it a sellout since he really thought no republican had a chance anyway. This similarly played it self out in the last Governors election. Be it as it may, you can't compare Lakewood to Bnei Brack, it is not nearly the same situation with the whole gedolim thing, but you never know.
I just entered this blog and wanted to see current events from a jewish religious perspective and see whats new, then I saw the headline of this post and I was thinking: here we go again...
The biggest problem with the army is one you ignore. Your daughter however was open about it in her piece. She discussed how problematic and difficult it is to remain frum in the army, to not lose ones spirituality.
(Then she irresponsibly asks for more frum soldiers to join to help make it easier....if she was truly concerned she would never make such a public request....that may attract people with a less stable frumkeit... and be detrimental to them. After all, she literally just wrote how dangerous it is for frumkeit. The responsible thing would be to make those requests privately to anyone she considers capable for the rigors of army service and keeping their spirituality from falling.)
The main point however is and always was the dangers to yiddishkeit and halacha, besides for any other considerations. I beleive you willfully left this out and it's disgusting. Kedusha issues are a major concern and and you won't address them seriously. Shabbos and kashrus and tfillin etc are concerns. And not diminishing in one's feelings for Torah and living like an orthodox Jew must. These are very real concerns.
You don't discuss it. Even if you mention it, it is in a mild unconcerned way. Shame on you.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2233988/mir-yerushalayim-closing-temporary-us-locations-will-return-all-bochurim-to-eretz-yisroel.html
This is hilarious. Mir Yeshiva has decided that it's finally safe for its students to return from the US to Jerusalem. And they write a letter to the parents saying, "Now that we see that it's safe to come back to Jerusalem, Torah protects!"
I would like to ask why you RNS have not joined the army? Even if not in a combat role, I'm sure they could find you something, like a cook or driver?
You really shouldn't be making up quotes. Hardly inspires confidence in your integrity.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/on-omitting-parenthetical-statements
You really don't get it? Have you ever seen the gemara about שלוחי מצוה? Yes, Torah and mitzvos protect, but a clear shas hasakana is different.
Is the gemara also hilarious ח"ו?
So let me get this straight. Torah doesn't protect when things are dangerous. But soldiers do. So tell me again why guys should be learning Torah instead of being soldiers?
i think you have a solid point. we are throwing around this line that torah protects too much. we really believe that it does, just like working is only hishtadlus to make money and the real reason is what we deserve from rosh hashana, but (almost) no one doesn't go to work because of that. so here too, practically, the army is very important. (incidentally, one of the questions which led me off the path back when was this very question: we say that hishtadlus isn't the real deal, yet we literally see how important it is)
i hereby retract my statement. even though the torah and teshuva is what really protects, practically we need to do hishtadlus, which is through the army and safety precautions. the reason chareidim don't join the army is because they want to be kulo Torah, especially during those formative years and going to the army would mess that up. we "justify" this (i put that word in quotes because it isn't merely a justification) by saying that there already is an army and what we need more of are ovdei Hashem. incidentally, that is our service and protection. but (a) we must treat it like that and strengthen our service to be as intense as if we were in the army (only moving forward slowly so that it is tenable) and this requires extreme honesty and intense self awareness. and (b) we should be more clear about which point is responding to which point. the reason we don't go to the army isn't actually because Torah protects, rather because we have a specific mission. it so happens that fulfilling this mission helps the cause and our true victory will come from strengthening our service of God, but at the same time this doesn't explain why we don't need to do hishtadlus when necessary, and the real answer is because we aren't as needed as you make it, and that we have very important (and yes, unselfish) things to take care of that proceed the obligation of going to the army
thank you Natan for showing me where i am going wrong
What does this have to do with the letter from the Mir? Why is the letter from the Mir hilarious if it is a clear gemara?
Perhaps you meant to respond to my other comment https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42809326
Please make yourself clear.
"Why do we need soldiers if Torah protects?" = "Why do bad things happen to good people?"
Your response could be used for any questions on your beliefs.
" how can you think X if we see that it's not true?" " our seeing that X is not true = why do bad things happen to good people?"
Another misrepresentation. Sigh.
Where did they say "Now that we see that it's safe to come back to Jerusalem, Torah protects!"? Was that in a previous version of the page?
This is clearly an encouragement for nervous parents, Israel is certainly no safer than it was on October 7th. And by the way, if there was more unity rhetoric and less anti-unity rhetoric from the likes of yourself, this letter would hardly be necessary. I encouraged my American relatives in EY to stay, and they are doing so.
Says it right here. "And the Rosh Hayeshiva said that the special סייעתא דשמיא that תורה מגנא ומצלא these days to the Talmidei Hayeshiva is to those who Shteig in all sedorim and Tfilos of the Yeshiva including Friday and Shabbos."
But that's not what Slifkin quoted...
Instead of playing amateur psychotherapist and second-guessing other people's deeply held beliefs, why not try to clarify your own beliefs?
In many previous post, you have claimed point blank that "Torah doesn't PRACTICALLY protect". In a recent post, you seemed to acknowledge that the merit of Torah protects (but mistakenly thought the chareidim don't possess this merit). In this post, you seem to be moving backwards toward the rejection of this belief. So it looks like you are deeply confused about your own beliefs. That's ok, but please don't project your own internal confusion onto others.
Regarding the underlying issue, the protection of Torah is not a chareidi belief, but a belief of Judaism, the same as belief in God, in God's control of the world, in reward and punishment, which is what Torah protection is in fact a subset of. See here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect It is something believed by all faithful Jews, whether litvish, chassidish, or dati, including soldier that are serving right now, see here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2 (but evidently not fake Anglo dati-lites).
One of your errors is in imagining it as some magical forcefield, when in fact, it is part of the Hashgacha of Hashem. This answers most of your "questions". However, if one rejects the Hashgacha of Hashem, he obviously won't believe in the protection of Torah. To understand the importance of bnei Yeshivos better, see here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-pleasant-it-is-when-brothers
It would appear that Rabbi Slifkin might weakly hold on to the belief that Torah protects, but wouldn't "bet" on it. That is to say, he would encourage people to learn Torah, but not at the expense of any safety precautions, and would encourage people to join the IDF over learning in Yeshiva.
You haven't really addressed most of Rabbi Slifkin's concerns. How does Torah protect? Who is protected? Clearly, it isn't everyone, all the time. Is it random? That's not a Jewish approach. Is it for individuals? Then that is "selfish protection," engaging in reward earnings that benefit just oneself as opposed to the wider Jewish community. Is it to those specific communities that engage in Torah learning? They still aren't protecting the wider population.
The fact is, we have army bases on the front lines, not yeshivas. Until that change, it doesn't appear that we "really" believe Torah protects.
"You haven't really addressed most of Rabbi Slifkin's concerns"
He never will because he can't.
Dodgy test-y nudnik alert.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/surprising-voices-of-heresy/comment/40323311
Asking exactly how Torah protects is like asking exactly how God rewards and punishes. As we see in this week's parsha, the merit even protects רשעים. Nobody is "betting" on anything, just that Torah is an immensely valuable service, and with which the loss of, Israel would be much worse off.
But those ARE calculations that people need to make. All the time, we have to calculate the trade-off value and opportunity cost of investment decisions.
Merkava tanks are considered to be very useful. But we don't spend the entire defense budget on buying more and more Merkavas. We do cost-benefit analysis, and figure out when the opportunity cost of buying a new Merkava exceeds the benefit of it.
We don't do this for Torah learning. We don't say, "this is how much Torah learning is needed, after that we stop." But we know such a stop exists, because no one pours in quite literally every single resource out there to put in more Torah learning. Roads exist. Houses exist. Segulos exist. Those are all resources that could be put into more Torah learning. But we don't, because we know that such a stopping point exists.
Everyone is ultimately betting on something.
The main calculation is the spiritual danger of the army (by slifkins daughters own admission and she is in the IDF)
That's something very, very changeable - we could have Chardei brigades, run according to strictest Halachic standards, with set up times to learn and guard.
I think we are heading there, which would be a great thing.
It bear pointing out, at this hectic time, that TG the large majority of time the army is NOT in the midst of war. There is training and other duties, but there is also plenty of down time. Maybe not a three-hour morning seder, but there is time to set up daily learning. The difficulty is not in changing schedules but in mindset, and from what I have seen, we are moving in that direction.
We have that.
That would be a step in the right direction. It is the main issue which is ignored.
The problem however even here is that a secular government is in control and we are at their mercies...who knows what kind of restrictions they will make on any accommodations and when it will change....like with a new government...and then those soldiers are in trouble....but this is the first discussion before any other.
Do you disagree with Zichron Devarim's statement here? https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-selfishness-of-rashi/comment/39259722
I agree with you to an extent, but he convinced me that it is not as bad as you seem to think.
as usual, ZD hit the nail on the head:)
Nobody is spending the entire defense budget on Torah learning. While I am not privy to the internal cost-benefit analysis of the IDF, I know enough about cost benefit analyses in other aspects of the economy, and I find that they are almost all subjective judgement calls (except when the numbers overwhelmingly point one way or the other).
It is true that a cost-benefit analysis for yeshiva students is difficult, but it starts with people who actually value Torah study and Torah observance the same way they value Merkava tanks. That is why it is impossible to have such a conversation with people like Slifkin or other secularists. IYH at some point in the future, the military leadership will be largely composed of religious people who do value the Torah.
In the DL communities there are actual cost-benefit analysis being done. That is, there are multi-year long yeshiva programs that actually combine both Torah learning and army service. Heck, even Rabbi Slifkin's own children learn and serve.
That doesn't exist in the Charedi community. There is no sense of balance. It is all learn, no serve. Perhaps, you could argue that the Chiloni are also out of balance - they serve, but don't learn. But you can't point to bad behavior to justify the Charedi community's out-of-balance approach.
Also, subjective judgement calls happen when you get closer to equilibrium. We are obviously far, far away from equilibrium.
i really encourage people to see reb moshe's tshuva about college, yd vol. 4 siman 36 (mainly ois 10) for a view on the chareidi perspective. we need to have the option of "kulo torah" not torah mixed with army or college or other things
I would appreciate seeing such a actual cost-benefit analysis (as opposed to a vague "sense of balance"). As far as I can tell, Slifkin has never done any analysis, just constantly ridiculed the idea of Torah protecting, which is equivalent to ridiculing Judaism.
I don't think we are far from the equilibrium at all. Or alternatively, we are far from the equilibrium in the opposite direction that you believe.
Weak. So weak. The discussion here is over the parameters of torah protects and its practical application. Not the phenomenon in general.
And your classic whataboutism won't get you anywhere either.
If the author believes in the general phenomenon of Torah protection, where is *his* analysis of the parameters? Why is that only demanded from chareidim? Unless, of course, he is deeply confused about it, so doesn't bother with analysis.
More whataboutism.
Maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.
You are the one that claims 'torah protects' is a valid reason for benei torah not to participate at all in any relief effort, you are the one that needs to provide the parameters and the detail and deal with all the questions on it.
But here, every faithful Jew claims Torah protects, not just chareidim. So if any analysis is required, it is required by everybody, not just chareidim. To the contrary, it is those who want to draft the bnei yeshivos (not just chareidim) who should demonstrate that this is necessary.
Nobody here is calling for the draft of the benei yeshivos. It's not black and white. There are shades of grey in the real world
In words of one syllable the discussion here is about the real reason chareidim don't serve. Get it?
Classic whataboutism. Chazal have already told us clearly when shechiach hazeikah you cannot rely on torah and mitzvos protect (as you don't get it, in words of one syllable not that torah doesn't protect, you cannot rely on it). Some sources are in Natan's article about when you can actually rely on it.
And nobody is calling for a complete draft of benei yeshivos anyway.
That means that you can't rely just on your merit. But nobody is doing that. I'm glad nobody is calling for a complete draft of bnei yeshivos, where's the parameter-based analysis of how many bnei yeshivos are optimal?
You keep citing gemara sources and appealing to "basic Judaism", "normative Judaism" etc to back up your claim. Do you have any *other* evidence for "Torah protects" besides your faith-based beliefs? Any at all?
You are asking for better evidence than God communicating something to us unambiguously? The evidence for this is about as good as the evidence that the Jews have any right to the land of Israel in the first place (which is why atheists are almost universally anti-Israel). If you don't subscribe to the Torah, this whole IDF conversation is moot, and we should be packing out of there effective immediately.
Yeah I'm asking for evidence that establishes a clear causal relationship between Torah learning and protection. If this protection effect was real, and was really as good (or better) than military service, then people would notice. Chareidim wouldn't have to extort the government for money; the govt would be begging for more to learn in Kollel.
The fact that this protection is absolutely invisible to absolutely everyone except people who are pre-committed to the belief (because they think the belief is *required* by their religion!) is very telling.
The main issue for many orthodox Jews is the spiritual atmosphere of the army, the halachic problems and temptations...this is the main issue that is being ignored and must be addressed seriously.
It is not addressed because no one is interested in accommodating. They even acknowledge that it would harm the Chareidi way of life. So they basically say too bad. They never suggested a way forward.
Indeed, we spoke about this here. The secularists acknowledge point blank that there is a real problem, but they don't care https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-selfishness-of-rashi
However, see the first comment from ZD over there who makes the point that it is not necessarily as problematic as Honest Levi (and Slifkin!) is saying.
Until this is acknowledged and the state is ready to make the army service inclusive of the charedi needs a change will not happen.
And until it happens I will continue to encourage my descendants to train in martial arts and the use of weapons but not to serve in the IDF.
I hope a change will come before it's too late.
"If this protection effect was real, and was really as good (or better) than military service, then people would notice"
You would think so, eh? We notice quite well, but secularists are unfortunately blind to the obvious truth.
"The fact that this protection is absolutely invisible to absolutely everyone except people who are pre-committed to the belief "
-There are many people who were חוזר בתשובה when they saw the hashgacha of Hashem, so your statement is just absolutely incorrect.
Do u think there was more Torah being learned in 1948 than in 1939?
It's not a magical spell based on quantity of daf learned.
I do not care if atheists are almost universally anything. I speak only for myself.
According to some Gedolei Torah yeshiva boys have an obligation from the Torah to serve.It is forbidden not to serve. Start from there and look for a few special cases that allow yeshiva boys not to serve. Also note we are dealing with פיקוח נפש which you treat with a casual non significant esoteric approach as if you can estimate , control,and manage G-d and his Decisions. The whole Torah is a zechut for G-d's interference on our behalf. But we follow the דרך הטבע for so he decreed,basic Judaism.Then we pray and learn . Note there are older and younger people to learn. He decides, not you.
That's not any sort of analysis. Slifkin asked for an analysis.
I present a different approach . As usual your answer is deflection.
I have no problem with different approaches, but your approach was not an analysis.
It is necessary for Chareidi Rabbonim to consult with Tzahal as to how many yeshiva boys can be released from army service without endangering everyone's life. Just as we consult expert doctors as to what medical treatment to employ and regarding surgery .Before we make halachic
decisions that involve life and death or possible destruction of one's health.
.For example regardingHalachic matters such as
fasting on Yom Kippur, and other decisions that involve life and death etc..
@Joyous
Not at all. There is an evolutionary struggle for the survival of the fittest by means of natural selection. I don't know why Slifkin ignores it.
"Does Slifkin Really Believe In Evolution?
How can you tell if a belief is genuine?"
A good idea for an IM post, but more important things come first.
of course not. we come from Torah sources. that's all we need
welcome back bro, haven't heard from you in a while
This makes the most rational sense. Which Rishonim say this? Do you by chance have the source?
Meiri sota 21a :
דרך הערה אמרו כי נר מצוה ותורה אור תלה הכתוב את התורה באור לומר לך מה אור מאיר לעולם אף תורה מגינה לעולם ר"ל שמשפיע לזולתו ומקיים את הישוב בחכמתו ואומר בהתהלכך תנחה אותך בשכבך תשמור עליך והקיצות היא תשיחך בהתהלכך תנחה אותך זה העוה"ז בשכבך תשמור עליך זה יום המיתה ר"ל לעולם הבא והקיצות היא תשיחך לעתיד לבא ר"ל תחיית המתים ותלה את המצוה בנר לומר לך מה נר אינה מאירה אלא לפי שעה כך מצוה אינה מגינה אלא לפי שעה ר"ל שכל שאין דעתו עליה נשאר ערום אבל מי שזכה לחכמה אינה זזה ממנו
That doesn't say what Slifkin thinks it does (I believe he mistranslates the world לעולם), and which doesn't make sense in the context of the Gemara there at all, but either way, you have inspired me to write an IM post!
Ok, you inspired this post https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-rationalist-approach-to-sotah
What do you think about this maharsha
Sotah 21
אלא אמר רבא תורה כו' בעידנא דלא עסיק אגוני מגנא כו'. ק"ק דאכתי כיון דמגנא לעולם למה מתו דואג ואחיתופל קודם זמנם כדאמרינן פרק חלק אמאי לא הגינה תורה עליהם וי"ל דלא קאמר תורה מגנא אלא מפורעניות ויסורין ולא ממיתה וק"ל:
Goodness. Where do we begin?
We all agree that we need to do hishtadlus. We live in this world which is designed to work in a certain way. In this matter there seems to be a small divide, where the "rationalists" say that it's real and the "chareidim" way is just a smokescreen. But either way we all agree that we can't ignore this world.
But here's what the chareidim believe: our job is to serve God, nothing else. The rules for that are clear in the Torah prescribed by God. He wants us to toil in Torah and get close to Him. To serve Him with all our heart and all our soul. It is very hard to do this outside of the beis midrash. Even a baalabos is to learn many hours a day, and learning is supposed to be the main focus of his life. Those who don't appreciate learning think there is some other value at play. According to the chareidi, there isn't. Now, this doesn't mean everyone has to be reb Elyashiv. The fraction of gedolei Torah who leave yeshiva may be one in a thousand. But already by learning in yeshiva for a few years, the appreciation is there. For the rest of that yeshiva boy's life, he loves nothing more than a talmid chacham and loves nothing more than the hours he spent and spends learning and mastering some of God's word. This chinuch does not come from anywhere else in the world, except when, if only for a few years, one is immersed in God's laws and it's tedious yet beautiful intricacies. If he needs to be in the army at 18, when will he learn to appreciate the Torah?
This is a chareidi value. The chareidi value. Anyone who doesn't appreciate this is an outsider.
The non chareidi calls this selfish. But the chareidi says this is what God wants of us and this is what makes us Jews. This is the key to our continuity.
The ramifications of this are glaring. We're not going to give this up so easily. Because we feel this is what God wants we only leave the beis midrash with a heavy heart. During war time and the line we strengthen our avoda.
But what does an outsider see? simple: ignore this background ideology and what are we left with? A bunch of people telling other people that nothing important matters.
The chareidi will tell you that those things do matter, just not as much as this other value. But to those who don't have this value in their psyche, they just hear the echo of what's "not" important instead of what we say is just ''less" important.
If God wants us to learn and be closer to Him and He says to do this as a life's mission, are we to argue? But it course it doesn't need to be at the expense of other things but who are we missing, focus on one thing is always at the expense of another thing. So we'll keep focusing on God and you'll keep focusing on the army and we'll all be good
'We all agree that we need to do hishtadlus. We live in this world which is designed to work in a certain way. In this matter there seems to be a small divide, where the "rationalists" say that it's real and the "chareidim" way is just a smokescreen. But either way we all agree that we can't ignore this world.'
Let me offer another view here: What we do in this world to help make it a better place is not "hishtadlus". It is the real thing and in fact a main purpose of Mitzvos. You are given free will and you can do good or bad things with it. When you do good things, it helps and when you don't it doesn't and when you do negative things it makes the world worse and causes bad things to happen to others. That *is* the system created by God and your bitachon is that if you do your best at doing good things, that is most likely that you will help the world. Lack of bitachon is when you find an excuse not to fix things in the real world because you know that there are always larger forces in play that could make your hard work fail.
The point of this post is that model of the world is actually one that everyone uses. No one gets up in the morning and doesn't eat, waiting to see if they will starve to death before they decide they need to do "smokescreen hishtadlus" and eat something. But when it comes to things that maybe people don't want to do for one reason or another, they find reasons to call that thing "hishtadlus" and therefore just a smokescreen, let someone else do it, while I do the "real" thing which just so happens to be what I like doing anyhow.
The rambam holds to accept the truth from the one who says it. An idea should be evaluated by its own merits.
The main issue being ignored is the danger of falling in frumkeit...and yiras shamayim and doing sins in the army chv.
The army is run by the government which is secular. This is a very real danger and the biggest concern. (Read Slifkins daughters piece on this...she is there and admits) This is the biggest problem of all.
I'm not ignoring that - I will be discussing it in a different post. It's one of the central issues. This post is specifically designed to point out the fake issues, so that we can get to the real ones.
In all your many discussions, I have never seen a serious discussion about tfillah and emunah and halacha and teshuva...unless it is spin against some group. You did write that what happened on Oct 7th won't happen again, which is a light-weight Jewish idea. Sure, we will try as hard as we can to prevent it but we are not G-d.
My point is this. If you were serious about more sincere Judaism, .....AND THEN....you discussed your outlook for an ideal Judaism...and ideal Israel....I would listen. I admire chardalim or whatever they are called...they are excellent Jews...but that is NOT you.....you are a washed-out Jew...and therefore your ideas are washed out...they are not coming from a Jew with the spirit and fire of Judaism in him...and therefore whatever you say is not to be taken seriously.
Again, your ideas come from you. And you are a washed-out Jew. Therefore, your ideas are not relevant.
You have Chutzpah. RNS is talking about a serious matter,the Army. Maybe you haven't noticed we are at war. He is not going to give a shiur on Amunah and Tefillah. We have much of that but little serious discussion about the need for soldiers and Chareidi non
participation in that area under the guise of dedication to Torah.
Agreed. God is not in their training fields
Absolutely correct. And you agree the reason is nothing to do with 'torah protects'.
sort of
see my comment above https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42848369
Excellent. I would just point out that this is not just the chareidi value system, but the true Dati value system as well. As our Dati guest poster expressed best https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-frontlines and https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/secular-zionism-vs-judaism
Or as Rav Moshe Zvi Nariya zt"l explains https://hebrewbooks.org/48738
There may be a disagreement over the best way to implement these values, how elitist we should we make the תורתו אומנתו system, but the values are substantially the same.
whoops, didn't mean to exclude them. slifkin was talking about chareidim so i refer to them. in my book the true DL's are not so different from chareidim.
Good on you for writing this. It will be difficult to get through to people
1) It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his livelihood depends on not understanding it
2) The issue is more one of identity and defense of self concept. Logic and facts are weak in the face of these emotional concerns
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42793585
i really encourage people to see reb moshe's tshuva about college, yd vol. 4 siman 36 (mainly ois 10) for a view on the chareidi perspective. we need to have the option of "kulo torah" not torah mixed with army or college or other things
Rabbi S, I'm having a difficult time understanding why this is the crux of the discussion. The Haredim believe - genuinely - that the study of Torah is their life's work. That's what God asks of us, in their interpretation. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of sources to this end, that we do what God wants and He'll take care of the worldly stuff. See Brachot 35b. We believe that they take it too far and expand this vision to too many people (every group does that).
Personally, I am not Hareidi, and my teachers taught me more responsibility to the world at large, and more connection with the world at large. But they also taught that the select few who could learn full time and become great Rabbis and dedicate themselves to pure Torah study, should do so, because that is even better, for those few elite.
I'll admit that the Haredi approach seems to produce more of this elite group, but many, many more are lead astray, which is why my rabbis taught us the importance of responsibility and being involved in the world.
My issue with Haredim is that they take it too far. But to question if they genuinely believe it, of course they do! And for good reason.
"Yo", the point you raise is a good one and I will discuss it in a different post. This post is only dealing with the claim that they believe that Torah protects.
Thank you Rabbi, looking forward.
What do you respond to this idea: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42787725
Source for many more lead astray? My understanding is that the statistics say the opposite, that Dati has many more who go OTD? Although I believe that is based on people who self-identify as Datiim, and you might have a stricter criteria.
By astray i mean wasting a lot of time and not doing their service of God as needed. I'm not saying that they're bad even. I'm just commenting on the fact that they preach to the top tier, which not everyone is capable of. From what I understand, in America it is more acceptable to begin on the top tier and then find your place later. In Israel everyone in the Haredi community thinks they are that top, and when they aren't they have no other options. I don't mean to bash them; I was just explaining why my teachers taught the two options. Although I wonder how many people would join the top ranks if that were stressed more, as I wrote above.
I think continual attendance at a late shacharis (and the provision of 'minyan factories') is being 'led astray' in terms of what charedism is supposed to represent. Official minyonim at 11AM on chol hamoed (and no, they are not intended for people whose wives gave birth the night before) is a people led astray.
And your response to this is mockery, which shows you do not have a proper answer.
My response has always been that you project your own laziness and experience onto others, the vast majority of bnei yeshivos are not davening at 11. Go back to your coffee room.
Im fed up with your constant flow of negativity get a life....stop focusing on others and look inwardly....eg perhaps filtering your phone better, learning more being nicer enough with this fixation on battering the chareidim-----however justified u think u are just open your eyes and question why You of all people have decided to be fixated on them....your fetish for the degradation of charedim is clearly charged by your book banning...im unsubscribing from this because im fed up with your constant negative barrage....
"filtering your phone better"
What on earth.
What a presumptuous comment. How do you, or he, know or care what level of explicit content rabbi slifkin looks at?
Sorry but this type of holier than thou post makes me want to vomiקשוט עצמך וכו'. ן
שלח ידיו בשלומיו חלל בריתו
Looking forward to your sequel "Do chareidim really REALLY believe that Torah protects".
And then the much anticipated follow up, "Do Chareidim really really REALLY believe that Torah protects".
You've got some real talent. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise!!
And an indepth analysis of how the army impacts people's religiosity. How much do people tend to fall? Are there sinful temptations? What kinds of people leave there without sacrificing their judiasm...and how much do they struggle? What about people who aren't too stable to begin with?
Do the higher ups in the army look down on halacha observance? Are they accommodating but uncaring? Are they supportive?
Do frum soldiers undergo harassment or are they looked down upon?
Do the religious people in the army take their religion seriously or they let it slide?
What areas of halacha are most in danger? Kedusha issues? How much worse are kedusha issues for girls who are the object of temptation vs boys who undergo temptation but not to that degree?
How many girls leave the army without any sexual misconduct? What about boys?
Are there spiritual advisers and helpers...frum jews with enough passion for Torah who themselves aren't weak in Torah spirit and knowledge
to help and guide?
How difficult is proper shmiras shabbos for such a setting? How difficult is keeping kosher properly? These and many more questions must be analyzed before jumping into what might be a pit of sin.
These types of questions are far and away the most important
for any orthodox Jew before anything else.
Whenever this issue comes up, slifkin ignores all this...which makes zero sense since it is the main issue ...its step one..and he blocks it out and jumps to other things.
Not ignoring it. Will address it in a separate post. First have to get rid of the fake reasons, and then we can get to the real ones.
https://slifkinchallenge.blogspot.com/2013/06/parameters-please.html
"There are several halachic statements about the obligation to serve in a Jewish army for the purpose of Milchemes Mitzvah. (Not that Rabbi Slifkin has demonstrated that he has done any research whatsoever regarding the practical applicability of this obligation in modern times.) At any rate, Rabbi Natan Slifkin wants to turn this into an immediate halachic obligation for all Chareidim to serve in the army and contribute to the economy. Furthermore, he expects all other Jews - even the Anti-Zionist Jews - to accept this. He even compares our situation today to that of an active Arab-Israeli war such as in 1948 in the Jerusalem Post:
And to which kinds of circumstances is it referring? Who says that it applies to the situation of today, with regard to an existential threat from our enemies? ……As Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin, in a classic article on the drafting of yeshiva students (translated in Tradition, Fall 1985), wrote: “If you understand that the scholars don’t need protection in relatively peaceful times and are exempt from building the protective walls, what consequence has this when compared to a life-and-death struggle, a war which is a mitzvah and in which all are obligated?”
Well, as a religious Jew who might be forced to send his religious sons to a secular army, and who is (as a taxpaying citizen) sharing the financial burden of those in academia, I think that we have a right to know the parameters of this obligation. If you're claiming that it is a concrete chiyuv, which obligates us to close our gemaras and expose sons and daughters to a virulent secular environment, while others serve in cushy army radio divisions or the Intelligence Corps unit 8200 instead, then I think that you should provide some concrete specifics."
============
A response to something you wrote just over a decade ago. I suppose you'll do a re-re-post of this in 2033, yes?
Bibi has already compared the situation to a second Independence War.
Oh, by the way, can you specify *which* https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/pure-gold fruits in machaneh yehuda enable one to see G-d? And do they need to be ripe?
I'm still very surprised by your seeming heresy (by the standard that you seem to want to meet) every time you ask that. Not that I would think less of you or anyone else for their religious beliefs, but it doesn't fit your the self-image you seem to be trying to project.
You're welcome to think whatever you like about what 'self-image I'm trying to project.' I don't think it's particularly relevant to anything, but maybe that's just a coping mechanism, or whatever other pablum Dr Slifkin comes up with in his next post.
You don’t consider yourself frum/dati/religious/observant/orthodox?
Yes, I do. Is there a point you're getting to here?
On the one hand you come across as frum. But then you mock what pesukim that we read twice a day say explicitly and directly is a blessing from God (and its opposite an indication of dissatisfaction kaveyachol) that we will get a lot of produce from the land as though it is something silly to be very thankful for. It confuses me.
וְהָיָה אִם־שָׁמֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶל־מִצְוֺתַי אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם הַיּוֹם לְאַהֲבָה אֶת־יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם וּלְעׇבְדוֹ בְּכׇל־לְבַבְכֶם וּבְכׇל־נַפְשְׁכֶם׃
וְנָתַתִּי מְטַר־אַרְצְכֶם בְּעִתּוֹ יוֹרֶה וּמַלְקוֹשׁ וְאָסַפְתָּ דְגָנֶךָ וְתִירֹשְׁךָ וְיִצְהָרֶךָ׃
וְנָתַתִּי עֵשֶׂב בְּשָׂדְךָ לִבְהֶמְתֶּךָ וְאָכַלְתָּ וְשָׂבָעְתָּ׃
הִשָּׁמְרוּ לָכֶם פֶּן יִפְתֶּה לְבַבְכֶם וְסַרְתֶּם וַעֲבַדְתֶּם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וְהִשְׁתַּחֲוִיתֶם לָהֶם׃
וְחָרָה אַף־יְהֹוָה בָּכֶם וְעָצַר אֶת־הַשָּׁמַיִם וְלֹא־יִהְיֶה מָטָר וְהָאֲדָמָה לֹא תִתֵּן אֶת־יְבוּלָהּ וַאֲבַדְתֶּם מְהֵרָה מֵעַל הָאָרֶץ הַטֹּבָה אֲשֶׁר יְהֹוָה נֹתֵן לָכֶם׃
Here is my answer:
The donkey told the tiger, “The grass is blue.”
The tiger replied, “No, the grass is green.”
The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, so they approached the lion.
As they approached the lion on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ′′Your Highness, isn’t it true that the grass is blue?”
The lion replied: “If you believe it is true, the grass is blue.”
The donkey rushed forward and continued: ′′The tiger disagrees with me, contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him.”
The king then declared: ′′The tiger will be punished with 3 days of silence.”
The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating ′′The grass is blue, the grass is blue…”
The tiger asked the lion, “Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?”
The lion replied, ′′You’ve known and seen the grass is green.”
The tiger asked, ′′So why do you punish me?”
The lion replied, “That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is degrading for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with an ass, and on top of that, you came and bothered me with that question just to validate something you already knew was true!”
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn’t care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions.
Never waste time on discussions that make no sense. There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand.
Others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t.
When IGNORANCE SCREAMS, intelligence moves on.
So you’re saying that R Slifkin is the tiger in the story and that the arguments he is making are beyond obvious. I agree.
"There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand."
You mean the evidence from Har Nof, Chevron and Meron that torah doesn't protects? Or the evidence from Yackov Oveinu who was petrified of Eisav? Or all the gedolim who use refridgerators and don't rely on torah protects to protect them food poisoning? That sort of evidence?
You sound like the Guy who proves God doesn't exist from the holocaust. It doesn't work that way and you know it.
Of course I know it!
It's Happy/Joyous and the others that do not know it.
Find me one comment Joyous ever posted in which he says the IDF is a waste of time. Nowhere. You totally made that up. He just responded to another comment of mine here where you can see his opinion clearly even with an IQ of 70.
But seeming that you agree with me somewhat, lets lay down the facts:
God protects the Jews - הנה לא ינום ולא יישן שומר ישראל
But the Holocaust. obviously he protects, but he has his Cheshbonos.
Torah protects, תורה מגין ומציל. obviously meaning that it is a merit for protection that danger won't even be brought upon in the first place.
But Meron, Har nof, and Mercaz HaRav. So Hashem must have his Cheshbonos.
With me so far?
Ok. So what do we do when Hashem has his Cheshbonos?
The basic understanding is that when Hashem has his Cheshbonos, he turns us over to the mercy of טבע. We always need to do our hishtadlus, always, and even more at such a time. But even then, we need the merit of torah to protect us, as always.
What's the solution? We need Torah, and we need the IDF.
Well, the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz quoted the principle of אלף למטה אלף למטה. Both are needed. So who does what?
Option # 1 - Chareidim go the the IDF and the irreligious sit and learn.
Option # 2 - Irreligious go to IDF and Chareidim sit and learn.
PLUS
Option #2.0 - option 2 plus DL mainly joining IDF and RZ splitting their years with hesder.
So RZ also agrees that אלף למטה but they split it among themselves. Chareidim don't do it because the Government won't accommodate, as Slifkin says it would harm their way of life. So although it would be nice to send the one's who don't learn but it's not super practical.
What will be in the future if Chareidim grow? Well, maybe the army would be ready to accommodate to Chareidi sensitivities since they'd actually need them, and that leverage will help. So that's with the whole "share the burden" thing.
By the way did anyone notice that the "Notorious" Rav Zilberstien allowed Chareidim to Join the Police force in Bnei Brak since they are low on cops now? He just said to keep it to those not fully learning. I guess he doesn't either believe in Torah protecting?
In other words, we cannot PRACTICALLY rely on "torah protects" because today might be a 'day of hester ponim' or a day where "Hashem has his cheshbonos that we do not understand". Instead, per yourself, we have to operate in a framework of tevah, where every little bit helps.
And therfore TODAY we should be having a serious discussion about how chareidim can assist more with the national effort. Not 'closing the yeshivos', not 'drafting all benei yeshivos', just a serious discussion as the starting point.
But chareidi leadership will not have that discussion, because the reason why chareidim do not contribute is nothing to do with 'torah protects' anyway. It's to do with politics, culture, fear of assimilation, everybody knows that. As everybody knows.
Repeat for everyday.
I'll have to rephrase that a drop. We practically cancel Bein hazmanim when the war broke out, and we still make sure to learn since Torah protects.
Th reason we are not having a serious conversation is because all sides want it their way. The Army doesn't want to change anything, and when this all started it was all out war. Yes, if it wasn't like that in the beginning things would be a lot calmer. but much damage needs to be reversed. And no one is doing it. The anti Chareidi are doing the same as they always did, not caring a drop about chareidi sensitivities and insisting the army will remain the same. So a serious discussion is not PRACTICAL now.
" It's to do with politics, culture, fear of assimilation" . Yes. What do you suggest? "Too bad" like the rest of the secular? "Serious conversation"? With people who want an all equalizer?
In the meantime Gedolim are encouraging everyone to learn and since they are doing a tremendous help for all of am yisrael, and ignore those that don't since that's a separate matter.
In 48 much more chareidim helped out since this area of tension didn't start yet.
Heh. You would think the donkey, whose very life depends on grass, would know more about it than a predator
I agree with you that the army is important and necessary. But in posts such as these, you seem to be placing your entire faith in the army, as opposed to Hashem, which is in total contradistinction to everything we know from the Torah and Chazal. Similarly, I hardly (if at all) see you place any importance on prayer, repentance, and tzedaka. My impression from reading your posts is that you believe if you can physically see the effect of something, then that's what works, and everything else is secondary *at best*. Irrespective of what Charedim think and whether or not they are consistent, this is clearly antithetical to the view of the Torah and Chazal. I believe until you demonstrate an understanding of this, your posts will continue to cause disunity (something not needed ever, let alone during this time), and will not be remotely persuasive to the audience you are trying to persuade.
What I'm presenting is the traditional Jewish approach, which also happens to be the charedi approach in every single area other than IDF service. You do the exact same material effort that everyone else does, and you davven for success.
But what role does Hashem, praying for success, repenting, etc. have in the battle? My general impression from your writings, and the impression of many others, is that these are mere side notes. This is not the traditional Jewish approach. If I am misinterpreting your opinion, it's because of your failure to emphasize their importance in any of your writings.
But you ought to know that this is not the traditional Jewish approach. Traditionally, Jews have had very different material approaches than the goyim/meshumadim. For example, Shemitta. Or not working on Shabbos. Just refusing to convert to Christianity was a huge material lack of hishtadlus. Or more recently, staying in Kollel for many years. Yep, emunah is am eminently PRACTICAL part of our lives.
And this is even for secular Zionists! What part of the founding of the state of Israel was "exactly like everybody else"? It was a foolhardy endeavor that miraculously succeeded (so much so that this is your only acceptable "proof" for Judaism!)
And certainly in our case where you have not demonstrated any negative material impact from chareidim not serving, just complaints about fairness (as if you can't do exactly the same as chareidim).
I'm sure you will get a lot of flak for this, but I actually think you did a good job attempting to get to the roots of chareidi ideology. I have long felt that the motto of chareidim is אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי. Living as we do without a סנהדרין, נביא,או"ת, מלך, בעלי המסורה, and not even any authentic acharonim, we are full of ספיקות and must constantly apply the rules of אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי ושוא"ת עדיף.
Is it possible and even probable that the current invasion of Gaza will bring a few years of peace? (ואגב, ע' לח"מ מלכים ה' סוף הלכה א' דכה"ג חשיב מלחמת רשות) Perhaps, but it is still a ספק, and we certainly can't trust the current heads of the state and army with making this decision.
What we do know for certain is that Klal Yisroel survived thousands of years goluyos, outlasting all their enemies, though they hardly ever took up arms, and when they did it often had disastrous consequences (e.g the Biryonim, Bar Kochva, and perhaps the Zionist endeavor). The only time Klal Yisroel came close to being extinguished was when the Nazis almost completed the job started by the maskilim, the Zionists and the Communists. If not for the ישיבות הקדושות all Jews may have turned out like the partygoers in בארי, ה"י.
So yes, when there is a clear sakana we will do some hishtadlus to protect ourself, but only the minimun necessary without interfering too much with the yeshivos.
P.S. I am not insinuating that chareidim are perfect. I think all of Klal Yisroel has much to learn from each other. I am just explaining their core ideology.
what can very likely happen after this is over, listening carefully to political discourse, is that a lot of Jews may be forced to leave their homes to accommodate the oppressed Palestinians. whether correct or not (my personal opinions not important), that is what the leaders of the world are insinuating. not only will bibi's power wane for obvious reasons, but perhaps the entire Israeli power will be diluted to make room for the Palestinians. without Hamas, it may not be so dangerous (I hope to God that is so), but if this happens, it will definitely affect a whole lot of people. there's a lot to worry about. we don't know the future but we can make guesses to realize that things will never be the same, and therefore we should never thing things are just the same.
It seems to me that most chareidim indeed do not believe Torah alone protects. They believe that Torah combined with hishtadlus of an army protects just like you - Rabbi Slyphkin believe. The reason why they don't join the army is because they feel there is enough army members without them and they can make the easier contribution of Torah learning with the harm to their way of life. Chareidim are not fools. When and if the time comes that they are needed for the army they WILL join. They will even go against the gedolim if necessary.
I remember when i was learning in BMG in Lakewood Chris Christie was running for governor against incumbent John Corzine. John Corzine was a democrat and so pro toeiva. Chris Christie was a republican and so was anti toeiva. I personally saw Rav Malkiel Kotler hang up a sign in Yeshiva to vote for John Corzine. This major source of sock and disbelief in the Lakewood community as Rav Malkiel seemed to "sell out" for the money John Corzine promised over the proper hashkafa. The overwhelming Majority of Lakewood ignored Rav Malkiel and voted for Chris Christie who won by 86,714 votes. With a population of 130k, It possible that the Lakewood vote made the difference.
Rabbi Slifkin - Do you clarify the parameters of your beliefs? Do you believe Torah provides ANY protection? How about Tsuvah? Tefilah? Charity? Do you not say תְשׁוּבָה וּתְפִלָּה וּצְדָקָה מַעֲבִירִין אֶת רֹעַ הַגְּזֵרָה,? Can we get a study showing the impact of each? Seems to me that this is where the rationalist train drives strait out of Judaism.
I agree that this is the real reason. It is similar to the halacha in Shulchan Aruch that when we are mechalel Shabbos for pikuach nefesh we happily do it ourselves without shinuim - but if there is enough time then we only do it through a goy or try to be mimimize the melachos as much as possible. Same thing here - as long as the army can function without yeshiva students, they should contribute by learning (which they DO believe helps), but if everyone is really needed to fight - that is a different story.
The problem with this argument is that it only applies to the standing army and not to the reserves, which is the overwhelming majority in an active war (350k currently deployed). You can't argue that 500k-1mm additional reservists are not needed (or will never be needed). What if this war escalates to a two-front war, or worse if Iran gets directly involved? There needs to be some kind of arrangement that will allow the majority of charedi men to be in the reserves - perhaps with very limited initial service/training and maybe only over 25 etc.. I have no illusions that this will satisfy Slifkin and his fellow haters, but they will never be Happy (or Joyous) anyway....
In the majority of these "what-if" scenarios, chareidim will not make the difference. For example, if you argue that we need another 1M reserves, 300% of the current forces, you ain't getting anywhere close to that from chareidim. And what if there is a two front war and you need 2M? And what if Iran drops a nuke? And what if Egypt gets involved? And what if Russia gets involved? And what if WW3 happens? It is precisely for these totally unpredictable,unquantifiable "what-if" scenarios that we trust in Hashem.
That said, I could definitely see the appropriateness of some minimal level of training for everyone.
I basically agree with you, but I think if the time came that Chareidim were needed by the numbers, they would be able to have the advantage to demand the army accommodate to the religious sensitivities they'll expect to get. I think the Gedolim would approve.
As for the story in Lakewood, firstly in Rabbi Kotlers defense, (although I disagree anyway,) he wouldn't consider it a sellout since he really thought no republican had a chance anyway. This similarly played it self out in the last Governors election. Be it as it may, you can't compare Lakewood to Bnei Brack, it is not nearly the same situation with the whole gedolim thing, but you never know.
I just entered this blog and wanted to see current events from a jewish religious perspective and see whats new, then I saw the headline of this post and I was thinking: here we go again...
Lol. You have to come to our blog for the religious perspective. This is the atheist (or atheist adjacent...) perspective!
Just to be 100% certain: joyous is actually happy, right?
Happy was banned from RJ. Joyous wasn't.
The biggest problem with the army is one you ignore. Your daughter however was open about it in her piece. She discussed how problematic and difficult it is to remain frum in the army, to not lose ones spirituality.
(Then she irresponsibly asks for more frum soldiers to join to help make it easier....if she was truly concerned she would never make such a public request....that may attract people with a less stable frumkeit... and be detrimental to them. After all, she literally just wrote how dangerous it is for frumkeit. The responsible thing would be to make those requests privately to anyone she considers capable for the rigors of army service and keeping their spirituality from falling.)
The main point however is and always was the dangers to yiddishkeit and halacha, besides for any other considerations. I beleive you willfully left this out and it's disgusting. Kedusha issues are a major concern and and you won't address them seriously. Shabbos and kashrus and tfillin etc are concerns. And not diminishing in one's feelings for Torah and living like an orthodox Jew must. These are very real concerns.
You don't discuss it. Even if you mention it, it is in a mild unconcerned way. Shame on you.
Not ignoring it. It will be the topic of a future post. Need to get rid of the fake reasons first, then we can to the real ones.
Watch this video until the end - https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy-yfSXO8on/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link