This is hilarious. Mir Yeshiva has decided that it's finally safe for its students to return from the US to Jerusalem. And they write a letter to the parents saying, "Now that we see that it's safe to come back to Jerusalem, Torah protects!"
So let me get this straight. Torah doesn't protect when things are dangerous. But soldiers do. So tell me again why guys should be learning Torah instead of being soldiers?
i think you have a solid point. we are throwing around this line that torah protects too much. we really believe that it does, just like working is only hishtadlus to make money and the real reason is what we deserve from rosh hashana, but (almost) no one doesn't go to work because of that. so here too, practically, the army is very important. (incidentally, one of the questions which led me off the path back when was this very question: we say that hishtadlus isn't the real deal, yet we literally see how important it is)
i hereby retract my statement. even though the torah and teshuva is what really protects, practically we need to do hishtadlus, which is through the army and safety precautions. the reason chareidim don't join the army is because they want to be kulo Torah, especially during those formative years and going to the army would mess that up. we "justify" this (i put that word in quotes because it isn't merely a justification) by saying that there already is an army and what we need more of are ovdei Hashem. incidentally, that is our service and protection. but (a) we must treat it like that and strengthen our service to be as intense as if we were in the army (only moving forward slowly so that it is tenable) and this requires extreme honesty and intense self awareness. and (b) we should be more clear about which point is responding to which point. the reason we don't go to the army isn't actually because Torah protects, rather because we have a specific mission. it so happens that fulfilling this mission helps the cause and our true victory will come from strengthening our service of God, but at the same time this doesn't explain why we don't need to do hishtadlus when necessary, and the real answer is because we aren't as needed as you make it, and that we have very important (and yes, unselfish) things to take care of that proceed the obligation of going to the army
thank you Natan for showing me where i am going wrong
Thanks for the clear and honest answer Shulman. If the issue is learning torah exclusively during formative years, why don't the Haredim simply delay their service till age 30 and then join the army after spending their 20s learning?
I'm almost 40 and have been doing miluim my entire adult life so I promise they'll still be fit enough.
I think something like that would be a viable and important option to consider.
Though I can't not add that my position on charedim in the army has become more nuanced since a year ago. It didn't change entirely but it did get broader and clearer.
So I definitely get that your position is more nuanced. And i won't make the mistake of confusing your views with those of the general charedi community.
Would you agree that the fact that no such option (conscripting at age 30) is even discussed or considered by the charedi world implies that concern about learning during specific formative years isn't really the reason. In fact I've never seen any discussions in the charedi world looking for innovative ways to serve, the overwhelming attitude seems to be: No. Never. No negotiating.
Says it right here. "And the Rosh Hayeshiva said that the special סייעתא דשמיא that תורה מגנא ומצלא these days to the Talmidei Hayeshiva is to those who Shteig in all sedorim and Tfilos of the Yeshiva including Friday and Shabbos."
We all agree that we need to do hishtadlus. We live in this world which is designed to work in a certain way. In this matter there seems to be a small divide, where the "rationalists" say that it's real and the "chareidim" way is just a smokescreen. But either way we all agree that we can't ignore this world.
But here's what the chareidim believe: our job is to serve God, nothing else. The rules for that are clear in the Torah prescribed by God. He wants us to toil in Torah and get close to Him. To serve Him with all our heart and all our soul. It is very hard to do this outside of the beis midrash. Even a baalabos is to learn many hours a day, and learning is supposed to be the main focus of his life. Those who don't appreciate learning think there is some other value at play. According to the chareidi, there isn't. Now, this doesn't mean everyone has to be reb Elyashiv. The fraction of gedolei Torah who leave yeshiva may be one in a thousand. But already by learning in yeshiva for a few years, the appreciation is there. For the rest of that yeshiva boy's life, he loves nothing more than a talmid chacham and loves nothing more than the hours he spent and spends learning and mastering some of God's word. This chinuch does not come from anywhere else in the world, except when, if only for a few years, one is immersed in God's laws and it's tedious yet beautiful intricacies. If he needs to be in the army at 18, when will he learn to appreciate the Torah?
This is a chareidi value. The chareidi value. Anyone who doesn't appreciate this is an outsider.
The non chareidi calls this selfish. But the chareidi says this is what God wants of us and this is what makes us Jews. This is the key to our continuity.
The ramifications of this are glaring. We're not going to give this up so easily. Because we feel this is what God wants we only leave the beis midrash with a heavy heart. During war time and the line we strengthen our avoda.
But what does an outsider see? simple: ignore this background ideology and what are we left with? A bunch of people telling other people that nothing important matters.
The chareidi will tell you that those things do matter, just not as much as this other value. But to those who don't have this value in their psyche, they just hear the echo of what's "not" important instead of what we say is just ''less" important.
If God wants us to learn and be closer to Him and He says to do this as a life's mission, are we to argue? But it course it doesn't need to be at the expense of other things but who are we missing, focus on one thing is always at the expense of another thing. So we'll keep focusing on God and you'll keep focusing on the army and we'll all be good
'We all agree that we need to do hishtadlus. We live in this world which is designed to work in a certain way. In this matter there seems to be a small divide, where the "rationalists" say that it's real and the "chareidim" way is just a smokescreen. But either way we all agree that we can't ignore this world.'
Let me offer another view here: What we do in this world to help make it a better place is not "hishtadlus". It is the real thing and in fact a main purpose of Mitzvos. You are given free will and you can do good or bad things with it. When you do good things, it helps and when you don't it doesn't and when you do negative things it makes the world worse and causes bad things to happen to others. That *is* the system created by God and your bitachon is that if you do your best at doing good things, that is most likely that you will help the world. Lack of bitachon is when you find an excuse not to fix things in the real world because you know that there are always larger forces in play that could make your hard work fail.
The point of this post is that model of the world is actually one that everyone uses. No one gets up in the morning and doesn't eat, waiting to see if they will starve to death before they decide they need to do "smokescreen hishtadlus" and eat something. But when it comes to things that maybe people don't want to do for one reason or another, they find reasons to call that thing "hishtadlus" and therefore just a smokescreen, let someone else do it, while I do the "real" thing which just so happens to be what I like doing anyhow.
whoops, didn't mean to exclude them. slifkin was talking about chareidim so i refer to them. in my book the true DL's are not so different from chareidim.
I'm not ignoring that - I will be discussing it in a different post. It's one of the central issues. This post is specifically designed to point out the fake issues, so that we can get to the real ones.
In all your many discussions, I have never seen a serious discussion about tfillah and emunah and halacha and teshuva...unless it is spin against some group. You did write that what happened on Oct 7th won't happen again, which is a light-weight Jewish idea. Sure, we will try as hard as we can to prevent it but we are not G-d.
My point is this. If you were serious about more sincere Judaism, .....AND THEN....you discussed your outlook for an ideal Judaism...and ideal Israel....I would listen. I admire chardalim or whatever they are called...they are excellent Jews...but that is NOT you.....you are a washed-out Jew...and therefore your ideas are washed out...they are not coming from a Jew with the spirit and fire of Judaism in him...and therefore whatever you say is not to be taken seriously.
Again, your ideas come from you. And you are a washed-out Jew. Therefore, your ideas are not relevant.
You have Chutzpah. RNS is talking about a serious matter,the Army. Maybe you haven't noticed we are at war. He is not going to give a shiur on Amunah and Tefillah. We have much of that but little serious discussion about the need for soldiers and Chareidi non
participation in that area under the guise of dedication to Torah.
i really encourage people to see reb moshe's tshuva about college, yd vol. 4 siman 36 (mainly ois 10) for a view on the chareidi perspective. we need to have the option of "kulo torah" not torah mixed with army or college or other things
Rabbi S, I'm having a difficult time understanding why this is the crux of the discussion. The Haredim believe - genuinely - that the study of Torah is their life's work. That's what God asks of us, in their interpretation. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of sources to this end, that we do what God wants and He'll take care of the worldly stuff. See Brachot 35b. We believe that they take it too far and expand this vision to too many people (every group does that).
Personally, I am not Hareidi, and my teachers taught me more responsibility to the world at large, and more connection with the world at large. But they also taught that the select few who could learn full time and become great Rabbis and dedicate themselves to pure Torah study, should do so, because that is even better, for those few elite.
I'll admit that the Haredi approach seems to produce more of this elite group, but many, many more are lead astray, which is why my rabbis taught us the importance of responsibility and being involved in the world.
My issue with Haredim is that they take it too far. But to question if they genuinely believe it, of course they do! And for good reason.
"Yo", the point you raise is a good one and I will discuss it in a different post. This post is only dealing with the claim that they believe that Torah protects.
By astray i mean wasting a lot of time and not doing their service of God as needed. I'm not saying that they're bad even. I'm just commenting on the fact that they preach to the top tier, which not everyone is capable of. From what I understand, in America it is more acceptable to begin on the top tier and then find your place later. In Israel everyone in the Haredi community thinks they are that top, and when they aren't they have no other options. I don't mean to bash them; I was just explaining why my teachers taught the two options. Although I wonder how many people would join the top ranks if that were stressed more, as I wrote above.
I think continual attendance at a late shacharis (and the provision of 'minyan factories') is being 'led astray' in terms of what charedism is supposed to represent. Official minyonim at 11AM on chol hamoed (and no, they are not intended for people whose wives gave birth the night before) is a people led astray.
And your response to this is mockery, which shows you do not have a proper answer.
Im fed up with your constant flow of negativity get a life....stop focusing on others and look inwardly....eg perhaps filtering your phone better, learning more being nicer enough with this fixation on battering the chareidim-----however justified u think u are just open your eyes and question why You of all people have decided to be fixated on them....your fetish for the degradation of charedim is clearly charged by your book banning...im unsubscribing from this because im fed up with your constant negative barrage....
I agree with you that the army is important and necessary. But in posts such as these, you seem to be placing your entire faith in the army, as opposed to Hashem, which is in total contradistinction to everything we know from the Torah and Chazal. Similarly, I hardly (if at all) see you place any importance on prayer, repentance, and tzedaka. My impression from reading your posts is that you believe if you can physically see the effect of something, then that's what works, and everything else is secondary *at best*. Irrespective of what Charedim think and whether or not they are consistent, this is clearly antithetical to the view of the Torah and Chazal. I believe until you demonstrate an understanding of this, your posts will continue to cause disunity (something not needed ever, let alone during this time), and will not be remotely persuasive to the audience you are trying to persuade.
What I'm presenting is the traditional Jewish approach, which also happens to be the charedi approach in every single area other than IDF service. You do the exact same material effort that everyone else does, and you davven for success.
But what role does Hashem, praying for success, repenting, etc. have in the battle? My general impression from your writings, and the impression of many others, is that these are mere side notes. This is not the traditional Jewish approach. If I am misinterpreting your opinion, it's because of your failure to emphasize their importance in any of your writings.
I'm sure you will get a lot of flak for this, but I actually think you did a good job attempting to get to the roots of chareidi ideology. I have long felt that the motto of chareidim is אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי. Living as we do without a סנהדרין, נביא,או"ת, מלך, בעלי המסורה, and not even any authentic acharonim, we are full of ספיקות and must constantly apply the rules of אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי ושוא"ת עדיף.
Is it possible and even probable that the current invasion of Gaza will bring a few years of peace? (ואגב, ע' לח"מ מלכים ה' סוף הלכה א' דכה"ג חשיב מלחמת רשות) Perhaps, but it is still a ספק, and we certainly can't trust the current heads of the state and army with making this decision.
What we do know for certain is that Klal Yisroel survived thousands of years goluyos, outlasting all their enemies, though they hardly ever took up arms, and when they did it often had disastrous consequences (e.g the Biryonim, Bar Kochva, and perhaps the Zionist endeavor). The only time Klal Yisroel came close to being extinguished was when the Nazis almost completed the job started by the maskilim, the Zionists and the Communists. If not for the ישיבות הקדושות all Jews may have turned out like the partygoers in בארי, ה"י.
So yes, when there is a clear sakana we will do some hishtadlus to protect ourself, but only the minimun necessary without interfering too much with the yeshivos.
P.S. I am not insinuating that chareidim are perfect. I think all of Klal Yisroel has much to learn from each other. I am just explaining their core ideology.
what can very likely happen after this is over, listening carefully to political discourse, is that a lot of Jews may be forced to leave their homes to accommodate the oppressed Palestinians. whether correct or not (my personal opinions not important), that is what the leaders of the world are insinuating. not only will bibi's power wane for obvious reasons, but perhaps the entire Israeli power will be diluted to make room for the Palestinians. without Hamas, it may not be so dangerous (I hope to God that is so), but if this happens, it will definitely affect a whole lot of people. there's a lot to worry about. we don't know the future but we can make guesses to realize that things will never be the same, and therefore we should never thing things are just the same.
It seems to me that most chareidim indeed do not believe Torah alone protects. They believe that Torah combined with hishtadlus of an army protects just like you - Rabbi Slyphkin believe. The reason why they don't join the army is because they feel there is enough army members without them and they can make the easier contribution of Torah learning with the harm to their way of life. Chareidim are not fools. When and if the time comes that they are needed for the army they WILL join. They will even go against the gedolim if necessary.
I remember when i was learning in BMG in Lakewood Chris Christie was running for governor against incumbent John Corzine. John Corzine was a democrat and so pro toeiva. Chris Christie was a republican and so was anti toeiva. I personally saw Rav Malkiel Kotler hang up a sign in Yeshiva to vote for John Corzine. This major source of sock and disbelief in the Lakewood community as Rav Malkiel seemed to "sell out" for the money John Corzine promised over the proper hashkafa. The overwhelming Majority of Lakewood ignored Rav Malkiel and voted for Chris Christie who won by 86,714 votes. With a population of 130k, It possible that the Lakewood vote made the difference.
Rabbi Slifkin - Do you clarify the parameters of your beliefs? Do you believe Torah provides ANY protection? How about Tsuvah? Tefilah? Charity? Do you not say תְשׁוּבָה וּתְפִלָּה וּצְדָקָה מַעֲבִירִין אֶת רֹעַ הַגְּזֵרָה,? Can we get a study showing the impact of each? Seems to me that this is where the rationalist train drives strait out of Judaism.
I basically agree with you, but I think if the time came that Chareidim were needed by the numbers, they would be able to have the advantage to demand the army accommodate to the religious sensitivities they'll expect to get. I think the Gedolim would approve.
As for the story in Lakewood, firstly in Rabbi Kotlers defense, (although I disagree anyway,) he wouldn't consider it a sellout since he really thought no republican had a chance anyway. This similarly played it self out in the last Governors election. Be it as it may, you can't compare Lakewood to Bnei Brack, it is not nearly the same situation with the whole gedolim thing, but you never know.
So maybe another random hundred thousand chosen by lottery should be exempt too. After all, their number wouldn't make a statistically significant difference. Come to think of it, let's exempt another 300,000. Numbers don't mean anything, correct?
I just entered this blog and wanted to see current events from a jewish religious perspective and see whats new, then I saw the headline of this post and I was thinking: here we go again...
Setting oneself apart - as an am kodesh - is not a modern view of the self. Moderners are am haaretz, and have adjusted accordingly to the zionistic ideal of self defense. Your asking charedim to “think modern” is precisely what they will never do. Mass movements, as a general rule, are retrograde - which is part of their allure.
you can always find a reason not to do something. It's really easy. just say "it's too hard, because..." and fill in the blank. (Ignore the cold, heard reality that you rely on the men and women of the IDF to fight to protect you. To maybe die or be horribly injured, to protect you.) There's always a way to rationalize; to serve your own needs; to let others suffer or die, instead of the all important...you.
i'm not an atheist. i'm atheist adjacent. that is, i live my life with G-d in it, but not religion so much. I'm awed at the Jew's discovery of G-d. What a concept. I'm not so awed at the presumptuous and wholly self serving idea that G-d discovered the Jews - what thin gruel, built by men, afraid to look in to the void...prepared to lie to themselves and all around them, and spit curses and cast out (or conversely, "love bomb" and guilt) those who dare to challenge this "obvious truth." Truly soviet in character....
so you live with the idea that there may be a God despite the countless scientific evidence showing how the bible story is made up? which god do you believe in? i'm curious. the one that makes you feel good and the one that philosophy says is reasonable? because there are heavy counters to that. Jews don't need your awe if at the end of the day you think it's all baloney dude
i live with the G-d the Jews discovered. It was quite a discovery, and has underpinned the Western world, where there is a G-d, and there is man -- and set the stage for equal treatment under the law, democracy, equal rights, and individual rights. and the enlightenment. it was a biggie, this discovery. and utterly undeniable (as opposed to the comic con set of beliefs that religious people propound, and ties them up in knots, and forces them to retreat to a corner of their own, where they "prove" religion (spoiler: they don't) and cast out all those who are ready to discuss and challenge these "proofs," at length, in a prolonged, unflinching, encounter.)
Since דור המדבר, very devout Jews faced wars, took a break from learning Torah and fought in them.
The problem with the IDF is its immorality and poisonous aspects from a tznius standpoint.
If the IDF can create a separate sector set up according to halachic criteria, 100% free of shmutz, temptations and threats to one's neshama, with rabbanim on hand, and, hopefully, if at all feasible, build in at least one seder during training, all charedim can and should participate in the army.
We need them badly. The greatest tzadikim have fought in our milchamos mitzvah.
Until that time, we cannot murder people's neshamos with the moral filth and עריות that would encircle our boys and men (and women).
The Jew Carl Sagan once said “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
The evidence for supernatural Sinai, in the writings of a genius, translates to ordinary evidence.
It’s not even evidence - it’s an “apples and oranges” fallacy. A genius does not have any special faculties for determining if the stories of the past are true.
It’s a big question, how mass movements function to use non-falsifiable assertions to capture the commitment of even geniuses, as well as all others.
It’s a topic of almost no interest to religious people, or adherents to other mass movements.
I know many political leftists whose live are defined by their commitment to the absolute truth of some idea or other, thanks to some inspiring professor who wowed them with half truths. When they change? They’re off in a different direction - armed with their new “truth!” Some people are just like that.
I’ve learned as well: some people are joiners. Some people love to conform to a group. Some people are built to just accept things that authority figures say as true - period.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2233988/mir-yerushalayim-closing-temporary-us-locations-will-return-all-bochurim-to-eretz-yisroel.html
This is hilarious. Mir Yeshiva has decided that it's finally safe for its students to return from the US to Jerusalem. And they write a letter to the parents saying, "Now that we see that it's safe to come back to Jerusalem, Torah protects!"
You really don't get it? Have you ever seen the gemara about שלוחי מצוה? Yes, Torah and mitzvos protect, but a clear shas hasakana is different.
Is the gemara also hilarious ח"ו?
So let me get this straight. Torah doesn't protect when things are dangerous. But soldiers do. So tell me again why guys should be learning Torah instead of being soldiers?
i think you have a solid point. we are throwing around this line that torah protects too much. we really believe that it does, just like working is only hishtadlus to make money and the real reason is what we deserve from rosh hashana, but (almost) no one doesn't go to work because of that. so here too, practically, the army is very important. (incidentally, one of the questions which led me off the path back when was this very question: we say that hishtadlus isn't the real deal, yet we literally see how important it is)
i hereby retract my statement. even though the torah and teshuva is what really protects, practically we need to do hishtadlus, which is through the army and safety precautions. the reason chareidim don't join the army is because they want to be kulo Torah, especially during those formative years and going to the army would mess that up. we "justify" this (i put that word in quotes because it isn't merely a justification) by saying that there already is an army and what we need more of are ovdei Hashem. incidentally, that is our service and protection. but (a) we must treat it like that and strengthen our service to be as intense as if we were in the army (only moving forward slowly so that it is tenable) and this requires extreme honesty and intense self awareness. and (b) we should be more clear about which point is responding to which point. the reason we don't go to the army isn't actually because Torah protects, rather because we have a specific mission. it so happens that fulfilling this mission helps the cause and our true victory will come from strengthening our service of God, but at the same time this doesn't explain why we don't need to do hishtadlus when necessary, and the real answer is because we aren't as needed as you make it, and that we have very important (and yes, unselfish) things to take care of that proceed the obligation of going to the army
thank you Natan for showing me where i am going wrong
Thanks for the clear and honest answer Shulman. If the issue is learning torah exclusively during formative years, why don't the Haredim simply delay their service till age 30 and then join the army after spending their 20s learning?
I'm almost 40 and have been doing miluim my entire adult life so I promise they'll still be fit enough.
I think something like that would be a viable and important option to consider.
Though I can't not add that my position on charedim in the army has become more nuanced since a year ago. It didn't change entirely but it did get broader and clearer.
So I definitely get that your position is more nuanced. And i won't make the mistake of confusing your views with those of the general charedi community.
Would you agree that the fact that no such option (conscripting at age 30) is even discussed or considered by the charedi world implies that concern about learning during specific formative years isn't really the reason. In fact I've never seen any discussions in the charedi world looking for innovative ways to serve, the overwhelming attitude seems to be: No. Never. No negotiating.
What does this have to do with the letter from the Mir? Why is the letter from the Mir hilarious if it is a clear gemara?
Perhaps you meant to respond to my other comment https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42809326
Please make yourself clear.
"Why do we need soldiers if Torah protects?" = "Why do bad things happen to good people?"
Your response could be used for any questions on your beliefs.
" how can you think X if we see that it's not true?" " our seeing that X is not true = why do bad things happen to good people?"
Another misrepresentation. Sigh.
Says it right here. "And the Rosh Hayeshiva said that the special סייעתא דשמיא that תורה מגנא ומצלא these days to the Talmidei Hayeshiva is to those who Shteig in all sedorim and Tfilos of the Yeshiva including Friday and Shabbos."
If we cared about unity, wouldn't it be apt to add a line that says: "Thanks to the work of our brave soldiers it's now safe enough to return?"
Goodness. Where do we begin?
We all agree that we need to do hishtadlus. We live in this world which is designed to work in a certain way. In this matter there seems to be a small divide, where the "rationalists" say that it's real and the "chareidim" way is just a smokescreen. But either way we all agree that we can't ignore this world.
But here's what the chareidim believe: our job is to serve God, nothing else. The rules for that are clear in the Torah prescribed by God. He wants us to toil in Torah and get close to Him. To serve Him with all our heart and all our soul. It is very hard to do this outside of the beis midrash. Even a baalabos is to learn many hours a day, and learning is supposed to be the main focus of his life. Those who don't appreciate learning think there is some other value at play. According to the chareidi, there isn't. Now, this doesn't mean everyone has to be reb Elyashiv. The fraction of gedolei Torah who leave yeshiva may be one in a thousand. But already by learning in yeshiva for a few years, the appreciation is there. For the rest of that yeshiva boy's life, he loves nothing more than a talmid chacham and loves nothing more than the hours he spent and spends learning and mastering some of God's word. This chinuch does not come from anywhere else in the world, except when, if only for a few years, one is immersed in God's laws and it's tedious yet beautiful intricacies. If he needs to be in the army at 18, when will he learn to appreciate the Torah?
This is a chareidi value. The chareidi value. Anyone who doesn't appreciate this is an outsider.
The non chareidi calls this selfish. But the chareidi says this is what God wants of us and this is what makes us Jews. This is the key to our continuity.
The ramifications of this are glaring. We're not going to give this up so easily. Because we feel this is what God wants we only leave the beis midrash with a heavy heart. During war time and the line we strengthen our avoda.
But what does an outsider see? simple: ignore this background ideology and what are we left with? A bunch of people telling other people that nothing important matters.
The chareidi will tell you that those things do matter, just not as much as this other value. But to those who don't have this value in their psyche, they just hear the echo of what's "not" important instead of what we say is just ''less" important.
If God wants us to learn and be closer to Him and He says to do this as a life's mission, are we to argue? But it course it doesn't need to be at the expense of other things but who are we missing, focus on one thing is always at the expense of another thing. So we'll keep focusing on God and you'll keep focusing on the army and we'll all be good
'We all agree that we need to do hishtadlus. We live in this world which is designed to work in a certain way. In this matter there seems to be a small divide, where the "rationalists" say that it's real and the "chareidim" way is just a smokescreen. But either way we all agree that we can't ignore this world.'
Let me offer another view here: What we do in this world to help make it a better place is not "hishtadlus". It is the real thing and in fact a main purpose of Mitzvos. You are given free will and you can do good or bad things with it. When you do good things, it helps and when you don't it doesn't and when you do negative things it makes the world worse and causes bad things to happen to others. That *is* the system created by God and your bitachon is that if you do your best at doing good things, that is most likely that you will help the world. Lack of bitachon is when you find an excuse not to fix things in the real world because you know that there are always larger forces in play that could make your hard work fail.
The point of this post is that model of the world is actually one that everyone uses. No one gets up in the morning and doesn't eat, waiting to see if they will starve to death before they decide they need to do "smokescreen hishtadlus" and eat something. But when it comes to things that maybe people don't want to do for one reason or another, they find reasons to call that thing "hishtadlus" and therefore just a smokescreen, let someone else do it, while I do the "real" thing which just so happens to be what I like doing anyhow.
The rambam holds to accept the truth from the one who says it. An idea should be evaluated by its own merits.
Absolutely correct. And you agree the reason is nothing to do with 'torah protects'.
sort of
see my comment above https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42848369
whoops, didn't mean to exclude them. slifkin was talking about chareidim so i refer to them. in my book the true DL's are not so different from chareidim.
I'm not ignoring that - I will be discussing it in a different post. It's one of the central issues. This post is specifically designed to point out the fake issues, so that we can get to the real ones.
In all your many discussions, I have never seen a serious discussion about tfillah and emunah and halacha and teshuva...unless it is spin against some group. You did write that what happened on Oct 7th won't happen again, which is a light-weight Jewish idea. Sure, we will try as hard as we can to prevent it but we are not G-d.
My point is this. If you were serious about more sincere Judaism, .....AND THEN....you discussed your outlook for an ideal Judaism...and ideal Israel....I would listen. I admire chardalim or whatever they are called...they are excellent Jews...but that is NOT you.....you are a washed-out Jew...and therefore your ideas are washed out...they are not coming from a Jew with the spirit and fire of Judaism in him...and therefore whatever you say is not to be taken seriously.
Again, your ideas come from you. And you are a washed-out Jew. Therefore, your ideas are not relevant.
You have Chutzpah. RNS is talking about a serious matter,the Army. Maybe you haven't noticed we are at war. He is not going to give a shiur on Amunah and Tefillah. We have much of that but little serious discussion about the need for soldiers and Chareidi non
participation in that area under the guise of dedication to Torah.
Agreed. God is not in their training fields
Good on you for writing this. It will be difficult to get through to people
1) It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his livelihood depends on not understanding it
2) The issue is more one of identity and defense of self concept. Logic and facts are weak in the face of these emotional concerns
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42793585
i really encourage people to see reb moshe's tshuva about college, yd vol. 4 siman 36 (mainly ois 10) for a view on the chareidi perspective. we need to have the option of "kulo torah" not torah mixed with army or college or other things
Rabbi S, I'm having a difficult time understanding why this is the crux of the discussion. The Haredim believe - genuinely - that the study of Torah is their life's work. That's what God asks of us, in their interpretation. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of sources to this end, that we do what God wants and He'll take care of the worldly stuff. See Brachot 35b. We believe that they take it too far and expand this vision to too many people (every group does that).
Personally, I am not Hareidi, and my teachers taught me more responsibility to the world at large, and more connection with the world at large. But they also taught that the select few who could learn full time and become great Rabbis and dedicate themselves to pure Torah study, should do so, because that is even better, for those few elite.
I'll admit that the Haredi approach seems to produce more of this elite group, but many, many more are lead astray, which is why my rabbis taught us the importance of responsibility and being involved in the world.
My issue with Haredim is that they take it too far. But to question if they genuinely believe it, of course they do! And for good reason.
"Yo", the point you raise is a good one and I will discuss it in a different post. This post is only dealing with the claim that they believe that Torah protects.
Thank you Rabbi, looking forward.
What do you respond to this idea: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42787725
By astray i mean wasting a lot of time and not doing their service of God as needed. I'm not saying that they're bad even. I'm just commenting on the fact that they preach to the top tier, which not everyone is capable of. From what I understand, in America it is more acceptable to begin on the top tier and then find your place later. In Israel everyone in the Haredi community thinks they are that top, and when they aren't they have no other options. I don't mean to bash them; I was just explaining why my teachers taught the two options. Although I wonder how many people would join the top ranks if that were stressed more, as I wrote above.
I think continual attendance at a late shacharis (and the provision of 'minyan factories') is being 'led astray' in terms of what charedism is supposed to represent. Official minyonim at 11AM on chol hamoed (and no, they are not intended for people whose wives gave birth the night before) is a people led astray.
And your response to this is mockery, which shows you do not have a proper answer.
Im fed up with your constant flow of negativity get a life....stop focusing on others and look inwardly....eg perhaps filtering your phone better, learning more being nicer enough with this fixation on battering the chareidim-----however justified u think u are just open your eyes and question why You of all people have decided to be fixated on them....your fetish for the degradation of charedim is clearly charged by your book banning...im unsubscribing from this because im fed up with your constant negative barrage....
"filtering your phone better"
What on earth.
What a presumptuous comment. How do you, or he, know or care what level of explicit content rabbi slifkin looks at?
Sorry but this type of holier than thou post makes me want to vomiקשוט עצמך וכו'. ן
I agree with you that the army is important and necessary. But in posts such as these, you seem to be placing your entire faith in the army, as opposed to Hashem, which is in total contradistinction to everything we know from the Torah and Chazal. Similarly, I hardly (if at all) see you place any importance on prayer, repentance, and tzedaka. My impression from reading your posts is that you believe if you can physically see the effect of something, then that's what works, and everything else is secondary *at best*. Irrespective of what Charedim think and whether or not they are consistent, this is clearly antithetical to the view of the Torah and Chazal. I believe until you demonstrate an understanding of this, your posts will continue to cause disunity (something not needed ever, let alone during this time), and will not be remotely persuasive to the audience you are trying to persuade.
What I'm presenting is the traditional Jewish approach, which also happens to be the charedi approach in every single area other than IDF service. You do the exact same material effort that everyone else does, and you davven for success.
But what role does Hashem, praying for success, repenting, etc. have in the battle? My general impression from your writings, and the impression of many others, is that these are mere side notes. This is not the traditional Jewish approach. If I am misinterpreting your opinion, it's because of your failure to emphasize their importance in any of your writings.
I'm sure you will get a lot of flak for this, but I actually think you did a good job attempting to get to the roots of chareidi ideology. I have long felt that the motto of chareidim is אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי. Living as we do without a סנהדרין, נביא,או"ת, מלך, בעלי המסורה, and not even any authentic acharonim, we are full of ספיקות and must constantly apply the rules of אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי ושוא"ת עדיף.
Is it possible and even probable that the current invasion of Gaza will bring a few years of peace? (ואגב, ע' לח"מ מלכים ה' סוף הלכה א' דכה"ג חשיב מלחמת רשות) Perhaps, but it is still a ספק, and we certainly can't trust the current heads of the state and army with making this decision.
What we do know for certain is that Klal Yisroel survived thousands of years goluyos, outlasting all their enemies, though they hardly ever took up arms, and when they did it often had disastrous consequences (e.g the Biryonim, Bar Kochva, and perhaps the Zionist endeavor). The only time Klal Yisroel came close to being extinguished was when the Nazis almost completed the job started by the maskilim, the Zionists and the Communists. If not for the ישיבות הקדושות all Jews may have turned out like the partygoers in בארי, ה"י.
So yes, when there is a clear sakana we will do some hishtadlus to protect ourself, but only the minimun necessary without interfering too much with the yeshivos.
P.S. I am not insinuating that chareidim are perfect. I think all of Klal Yisroel has much to learn from each other. I am just explaining their core ideology.
what can very likely happen after this is over, listening carefully to political discourse, is that a lot of Jews may be forced to leave their homes to accommodate the oppressed Palestinians. whether correct or not (my personal opinions not important), that is what the leaders of the world are insinuating. not only will bibi's power wane for obvious reasons, but perhaps the entire Israeli power will be diluted to make room for the Palestinians. without Hamas, it may not be so dangerous (I hope to God that is so), but if this happens, it will definitely affect a whole lot of people. there's a lot to worry about. we don't know the future but we can make guesses to realize that things will never be the same, and therefore we should never thing things are just the same.
It seems to me that most chareidim indeed do not believe Torah alone protects. They believe that Torah combined with hishtadlus of an army protects just like you - Rabbi Slyphkin believe. The reason why they don't join the army is because they feel there is enough army members without them and they can make the easier contribution of Torah learning with the harm to their way of life. Chareidim are not fools. When and if the time comes that they are needed for the army they WILL join. They will even go against the gedolim if necessary.
I remember when i was learning in BMG in Lakewood Chris Christie was running for governor against incumbent John Corzine. John Corzine was a democrat and so pro toeiva. Chris Christie was a republican and so was anti toeiva. I personally saw Rav Malkiel Kotler hang up a sign in Yeshiva to vote for John Corzine. This major source of sock and disbelief in the Lakewood community as Rav Malkiel seemed to "sell out" for the money John Corzine promised over the proper hashkafa. The overwhelming Majority of Lakewood ignored Rav Malkiel and voted for Chris Christie who won by 86,714 votes. With a population of 130k, It possible that the Lakewood vote made the difference.
Rabbi Slifkin - Do you clarify the parameters of your beliefs? Do you believe Torah provides ANY protection? How about Tsuvah? Tefilah? Charity? Do you not say תְשׁוּבָה וּתְפִלָּה וּצְדָקָה מַעֲבִירִין אֶת רֹעַ הַגְּזֵרָה,? Can we get a study showing the impact of each? Seems to me that this is where the rationalist train drives strait out of Judaism.
I basically agree with you, but I think if the time came that Chareidim were needed by the numbers, they would be able to have the advantage to demand the army accommodate to the religious sensitivities they'll expect to get. I think the Gedolim would approve.
As for the story in Lakewood, firstly in Rabbi Kotlers defense, (although I disagree anyway,) he wouldn't consider it a sellout since he really thought no republican had a chance anyway. This similarly played it self out in the last Governors election. Be it as it may, you can't compare Lakewood to Bnei Brack, it is not nearly the same situation with the whole gedolim thing, but you never know.
So maybe another random hundred thousand chosen by lottery should be exempt too. After all, their number wouldn't make a statistically significant difference. Come to think of it, let's exempt another 300,000. Numbers don't mean anything, correct?
I just entered this blog and wanted to see current events from a jewish religious perspective and see whats new, then I saw the headline of this post and I was thinking: here we go again...
Just to be 100% certain: joyous is actually happy, right?
Watch this video until the end - https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy-yfSXO8on/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Excellent, excellent, excellent.
Keep this up!!
And thank you!
Would love a post where you could actually narrowly define the term "chareidim". Who exactly it is that you are referring to?
I don't think it's so necessary. The audience he is addressing is aware of it (see @Joyous's response), and argues back.
One need not be Charedi to reject NS's arguments.
Nor rationalist to accept
Setting oneself apart - as an am kodesh - is not a modern view of the self. Moderners are am haaretz, and have adjusted accordingly to the zionistic ideal of self defense. Your asking charedim to “think modern” is precisely what they will never do. Mass movements, as a general rule, are retrograde - which is part of their allure.
you can always find a reason not to do something. It's really easy. just say "it's too hard, because..." and fill in the blank. (Ignore the cold, heard reality that you rely on the men and women of the IDF to fight to protect you. To maybe die or be horribly injured, to protect you.) There's always a way to rationalize; to serve your own needs; to let others suffer or die, instead of the all important...you.
You're talking to an atheist btw
i'm not an atheist. i'm atheist adjacent. that is, i live my life with G-d in it, but not religion so much. I'm awed at the Jew's discovery of G-d. What a concept. I'm not so awed at the presumptuous and wholly self serving idea that G-d discovered the Jews - what thin gruel, built by men, afraid to look in to the void...prepared to lie to themselves and all around them, and spit curses and cast out (or conversely, "love bomb" and guilt) those who dare to challenge this "obvious truth." Truly soviet in character....
so you live with the idea that there may be a God despite the countless scientific evidence showing how the bible story is made up? which god do you believe in? i'm curious. the one that makes you feel good and the one that philosophy says is reasonable? because there are heavy counters to that. Jews don't need your awe if at the end of the day you think it's all baloney dude
i live with the G-d the Jews discovered. It was quite a discovery, and has underpinned the Western world, where there is a G-d, and there is man -- and set the stage for equal treatment under the law, democracy, equal rights, and individual rights. and the enlightenment. it was a biggie, this discovery. and utterly undeniable (as opposed to the comic con set of beliefs that religious people propound, and ties them up in knots, and forces them to retreat to a corner of their own, where they "prove" religion (spoiler: they don't) and cast out all those who are ready to discuss and challenge these "proofs," at length, in a prolonged, unflinching, encounter.)
it's basically impossible to "prove" that God exists. it's impossible to prove many things.
but have you ever studied a page of gemara with the commentators? have you ever heard of the Shach?
so this god of yours, does he exist?
Since דור המדבר, very devout Jews faced wars, took a break from learning Torah and fought in them.
The problem with the IDF is its immorality and poisonous aspects from a tznius standpoint.
If the IDF can create a separate sector set up according to halachic criteria, 100% free of shmutz, temptations and threats to one's neshama, with rabbanim on hand, and, hopefully, if at all feasible, build in at least one seder during training, all charedim can and should participate in the army.
We need them badly. The greatest tzadikim have fought in our milchamos mitzvah.
Until that time, we cannot murder people's neshamos with the moral filth and עריות that would encircle our boys and men (and women).
The Jew Carl Sagan once said “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
The evidence for supernatural Sinai, in the writings of a genius, translates to ordinary evidence.
It’s not even evidence - it’s an “apples and oranges” fallacy. A genius does not have any special faculties for determining if the stories of the past are true.
It’s a big question, how mass movements function to use non-falsifiable assertions to capture the commitment of even geniuses, as well as all others.
It’s a topic of almost no interest to religious people, or adherents to other mass movements.
I know many political leftists whose live are defined by their commitment to the absolute truth of some idea or other, thanks to some inspiring professor who wowed them with half truths. When they change? They’re off in a different direction - armed with their new “truth!” Some people are just like that.
I’ve learned as well: some people are joiners. Some people love to conform to a group. Some people are built to just accept things that authority figures say as true - period.
But enough….