I'm sorry, but this is flat out ridiculous. From what we know about the Chashomnaim, they were extremist kanoim who fought against the Assyrian Greeks and the Misyavnim (Jews who embraced non-Jewish culture, otherwise known as MODOX). Not exactly a MODOX/Misyaven thing to stab and murder someone for accepting Hellenistic practices, is it? But I guess since you guys have such a limited Jewish education, it sounds like a good joke on the surface. Realistically however, the Chashmonaim were antithetical to MODOX and it was exactly what they were waging their jihad against. If you want a accurate idea of the current state of MODOX/Misyaven affairs, check this link https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/modern-orthodoxys-moral-failure/2022/12/12/ . I can assure you that if the Chashmonaim were alive today, they would be fighting the 'modern' (pun intended) Misyavnim.
Good point. Secularists should THANK THEIR LUCKY STARS that the Chareidim have voluntarily decided (for the time being) to not bear arms. Look how terrified they get from "extremists" like Ben Gvir. An armed and trained "Chashmonaim" population would not bode well for them, to say the least.
For spirituality. You think the Macabbees army contained people that called women 'mattresses'? You guys just don't get it, do you? It's not about not wishing to share the burden.
You're nuts. RNS understands quite well what Chanukah is. Your comment reflects your Beit Hamedrash mentality. The fact is that many Helenists fought with the Maccabees. You can't see the importance of Jewish independence as part of fulfilling the Torah.
Irony is you engage in character assassination without having the capacity to engage in a civil debate. Strange negative characteristic for someone who may spend so much time studying text based on debates.
I do not know about Natan, but I would go Hellenistic! I would love if we blended in to the modern world and be like every1 else. Who needs all the suffering and guilt baggage?
@Howard, run your question by an LCR (Local Chareidi Rabbi). During the teen years, Chareidi students are taught, or at least used to be taught, responses to your good question. Among them:
-The Beis Halevi as brought by R Elchanan Wasserman regarding הפך לבם לשנוא עמו - תהילים קה-כה.
-The Malbim on הלא כבני כושיים אתם לי בית ישראל - עמוס ט-ז.
My problem with the original article that someone linked to is that it sounds like the Maccabees were Religious-Zionist; if you are Haredi or Secular, celebrating Chanukah shows that there is something wrong with your belief system.
Of course history is much more nuanced. Haredim, Chabadnikim, Socialist-Zionists, Modern Orthodox, Religious-Zionists and other Jewish ideological camps all claim to be the true followers of the Maccabim, and laugh at others for not seeing how obvious it is that their ideology is the only correct viewpoint.
The beauty of Chanukah is exactly the opposite - that there is something in the story that appeals to the vast majority of Jews. Lighting Chanukah Candles is one of the most widely observed Jewish practices in both Israel and in the Diaspora. The fact that these small candles are relevant to a Hassid in Williamsburg, a secular Kibbutznik in Israel, an assimilated Jew in Virginia, or a Hesder soldier on the border with Lebanon is the true beauty of Chanukah.
To use it as an opportunity to laugh at Jews who think differently from us, undermines the whole unifying story that those small candles represent.
@Michael Sedley - THANK YOU!!! This is probably the only comment here that really brings the true power and import of Chanukah to the surface. Great job! Freilichin Chag.
100% true. It is important to understand that the main miracle is the war, not the oil. With this comes the understanding that a Jewish kingdom is an imperative and fighting for it is an imperative. We must strive to unite with our Jewish brothers and sisters, but we must not forget that ultimately there is no unity when it is not backed by the Torah and its values
"Haredim, Chabadnikim, Socialist-Zionists, Modern Orthodox, Religious-Zionists and other Jewish ideological camps all claim to be the true followers of the Maccabim,"
I think that's true.
"and laugh at others for not seeing how obvious it is that their ideology is the only correct viewpoint."
I haven't seen so much of that. I've seen more nuanced thought on the matter. Or less, because they're in their own mode of life and aren't interested in considering any change, at times at the expense of other people in their lives.
The origin of this is a Hebrew column by Asher Wohl on Ynet. Note that the column begins with a parallel secular version (which if written this year probably would have referred to football/soccer, instead of basketball).
We need both. The fact of the matter is that 80% of IDF soldiers are jobniks. The yeshiva guys, if they are really learning seriously, are just another type of jobnik. Without them, the IDF could not win battles. Without the IDF, they could not learn (see Sanhedrin 49a).
I have an article in a Hebrew publication that 80% of the IDF are jobnikim. As for presuppositions, everyone must start with them. Rabbi Dr. Slifkin starts with a presupposition that yeshiva guys do not have an effect through the merit of their learning. We both believe in the Gemara so he will have to bring a resolution (terutz).
80% of ALL modern armies are jobnikim. A tank needs a lot more maintenance than a spear. And look at how rotten logistics is stifling the Russians in Ukraine;
Your point is that contemporary chareidim are not following the example of the Chashmonoyim in maintaining an army. I am pointing out that for many chareidim, the problem with the IDF isn't military service per se, but the grave risk that it poses to the religiosity of its members. You know better than I how wonderful, frum dati-leumi boys whose parents invested their blood, sweat, and tears in their upbringing, see them emerge from their service no longer shomer Shabbos. Isn't that a valid concern for chareidi parents? I don't think that parents of Chashmonoi conscripts had such concerns. So to compare the two is non sequitur.
Does your comment re dati-leumi soldiers apply to Hesder?
More importantly, yeshivot won’t even say Tehillim for the well being of the חיילים who protect them. Do chareidim want Hashem not to protect our soldiers???
כבר דייקו מלשון המיותר לכאורה, "וחוזר לתלמודו", שבמצוה כזו (שא"א לעשות ע"י אחרים) מפסיק מתלמודו אם אח"כ יחזור לתלמודו, ובאם שאח"כ לא יחזור אז לא יפסיק.
ולפי"ז נראה שחלוקים צבאות המכבים מצבאות העכשויים בזה, שהמכבים חזרו לתלמודם ולא העכשויים, ושעל כן חויבו המכבים להפסיק והעכשויים לא חויבו ואפילו נאסרו.
Are you aware that the at the time of the chashmonaim NOT A SINGLE Jew's life was at risk. Yet they fought. For ruchniyos. And at Purim time, when lives were at risk, nobody fought. Instead they fasted and prayed. Why do you think that is?
Purim they did indeed fight after Ahashvairosh gave permission and withheld his interference. Who do u think killed thousands of the haters? Go back and read the Megillah.
I think it's the difference between Eretz Israel and chutz laretz. In the land, we have much more to fight for (possession, a jewish kingdom, our nation, the Beit Hamikdash). Outside the land, we are outsiders, people are not prone to fighting on foreign soil the same way.
A small Judean army was able to defeat the Syrian Greeks & celebrated the victory for 8 days because they could not observe the 8 day holiday of Sukkot & Shemini Atzeret during the war. But we are suppose to celebrate the miracle of the temple candelabrum with oil that could not only last one day but lasted eight days. Thoughts??? Shabua Tob!
The miracle of the oil occurred b/c people did not recognize the miracle that was occurring on the battlefield.
Liberation of the Bet Mikdash occurred in year 3 of the revolt. The fighting continued for another 20(?) years.
One reason the miracle of oil has superseded the miracle of the war, and according to the Rambam also the miracle of establishing a meluchah, is that in less than 200 years the Jews were militarily totally defeated by the Romans.
You are annoying . It's his website, he will and can do whatever he wants with it and he has a very big following so it does not cheapen him. The fact that you went all the way to his website and post on it shows that the post is actually doing something and is meaningful enough to the point that you feel a need to comment on it.
Whether or not he can do what he wants is irrelevant to my particular point. As are your supplementary points. And you have no idea how big his following is, anyway. In the social media echo chamber, everybody thinks they have a large following.
I'm sorry, but this is flat out ridiculous. From what we know about the Chashomnaim, they were extremist kanoim who fought against the Assyrian Greeks and the Misyavnim (Jews who embraced non-Jewish culture, otherwise known as MODOX). Not exactly a MODOX/Misyaven thing to stab and murder someone for accepting Hellenistic practices, is it? But I guess since you guys have such a limited Jewish education, it sounds like a good joke on the surface. Realistically however, the Chashmonaim were antithetical to MODOX and it was exactly what they were waging their jihad against. If you want a accurate idea of the current state of MODOX/Misyaven affairs, check this link https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/modern-orthodoxys-moral-failure/2022/12/12/ . I can assure you that if the Chashmonaim were alive today, they would be fighting the 'modern' (pun intended) Misyavnim.
Good point. Secularists should THANK THEIR LUCKY STARS that the Chareidim have voluntarily decided (for the time being) to not bear arms. Look how terrified they get from "extremists" like Ben Gvir. An armed and trained "Chashmonaim" population would not bode well for them, to say the least.
And yet they still took up arms for their independence and fought. That is the point. They made an army and fought.
For spirituality. You think the Macabbees army contained people that called women 'mattresses'? You guys just don't get it, do you? It's not about not wishing to share the burden.
Umm.
Sisera?
Others
Medrash about Judith, though page 197 https://download.yutorah.org/2021/1053/1005721.pdf page 197)
The real irony is that Slifkin would have been fighting with the Hellenists, not the Maccabees.
What a pathetic response from someone who thinks he is living in a shetl in the Ukraine!
That was a random comment. Makes no sense.
Huh? I think no such thing, moron. You don't know anything about me.
Name calling is bad form, laddie; and I do know some things about you:
- you did not fully understand the implications of my remark
-you also lack tolerance and respect for people who don’t agree with you
-you seem to be obsessed with NS, which impairs your ability to love your fellow Jew as yourself
Think it through, laddie
So your comment was fair game, clean as a whistle from any shadow of being provocative.
Most of the "Hellinists"fight against the Greeks.
.
You're nuts. RNS understands quite well what Chanukah is. Your comment reflects your Beit Hamedrash mentality. The fact is that many Helenists fought with the Maccabees. You can't see the importance of Jewish independence as part of fulfilling the Torah.
Irony is you engage in character assassination without having the capacity to engage in a civil debate. Strange negative characteristic for someone who may spend so much time studying text based on debates.
I do not know about Natan, but I would go Hellenistic! I would love if we blended in to the modern world and be like every1 else. Who needs all the suffering and guilt baggage?
@Howard, run your question by an LCR (Local Chareidi Rabbi). During the teen years, Chareidi students are taught, or at least used to be taught, responses to your good question. Among them:
-The Beis Halevi as brought by R Elchanan Wasserman regarding הפך לבם לשנוא עמו - תהילים קה-כה.
-The Malbim on הלא כבני כושיים אתם לי בית ישראל - עמוס ט-ז.
-The uniqueness of the antisemitism of the Nazis.
My problem with the original article that someone linked to is that it sounds like the Maccabees were Religious-Zionist; if you are Haredi or Secular, celebrating Chanukah shows that there is something wrong with your belief system.
Of course history is much more nuanced. Haredim, Chabadnikim, Socialist-Zionists, Modern Orthodox, Religious-Zionists and other Jewish ideological camps all claim to be the true followers of the Maccabim, and laugh at others for not seeing how obvious it is that their ideology is the only correct viewpoint.
The beauty of Chanukah is exactly the opposite - that there is something in the story that appeals to the vast majority of Jews. Lighting Chanukah Candles is one of the most widely observed Jewish practices in both Israel and in the Diaspora. The fact that these small candles are relevant to a Hassid in Williamsburg, a secular Kibbutznik in Israel, an assimilated Jew in Virginia, or a Hesder soldier on the border with Lebanon is the true beauty of Chanukah.
To use it as an opportunity to laugh at Jews who think differently from us, undermines the whole unifying story that those small candles represent.
@Michael Sedley - THANK YOU!!! This is probably the only comment here that really brings the true power and import of Chanukah to the surface. Great job! Freilichin Chag.
100% true. It is important to understand that the main miracle is the war, not the oil. With this comes the understanding that a Jewish kingdom is an imperative and fighting for it is an imperative. We must strive to unite with our Jewish brothers and sisters, but we must not forget that ultimately there is no unity when it is not backed by the Torah and its values
"Haredim, Chabadnikim, Socialist-Zionists, Modern Orthodox, Religious-Zionists and other Jewish ideological camps all claim to be the true followers of the Maccabim,"
I think that's true.
"and laugh at others for not seeing how obvious it is that their ideology is the only correct viewpoint."
I haven't seen so much of that. I've seen more nuanced thought on the matter. Or less, because they're in their own mode of life and aren't interested in considering any change, at times at the expense of other people in their lives.
Alternative parallel from a chiloni perspective:
Q: Abba, why do we have off from school?
A: Because the Maccabis beat the Greeks.
Q: Why were they fighting?
A: Because the Greeks tried to enforce Western Culture to replace our own Jewish Heritage.
Q: Like iphones and instagram?
A: Then it was different because they also wanted to kill us.
Q: And today they don't want to kill us?
A: They want to kill us today as well, but today we have the Israeli Army.
Q: So the Maccabis joined the army?
A: No, they learned Torah all day until it became Pikuach Nefesh, and then they picked up weapons and fought.
Q: If they didn't join the Army, how did they make a living?
A: They were Kohanim, so they got money from Trumah/Maaser to afford to learn and upkeep the Beit Hamikdash.
Q: Just like we pay taxes for yeshivot?
A: Why are you asking so many questions? You have no school today. Go play with your X-box.
The origin of this is a Hebrew column by Asher Wohl on Ynet. Note that the column begins with a parallel secular version (which if written this year probably would have referred to football/soccer, instead of basketball).
https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3480761,00.html
Ynet has a better post which illustrates the overall confusion of what Canukkah is. This blog is becoming a rag.
There is a problem though that an average charedi will tell you that Chanukah is about celebrating the miracle of the oil.
Interesting that Ramban includes a third miracle, the establishment of a meluchah, which very soon was no longer shemer mitzvot.
We need both. The fact of the matter is that 80% of IDF soldiers are jobniks. The yeshiva guys, if they are really learning seriously, are just another type of jobnik. Without them, the IDF could not win battles. Without the IDF, they could not learn (see Sanhedrin 49a).
Do you have any evidence to back your claim that doesn’t require presuppositions?
I have an article in a Hebrew publication that 80% of the IDF are jobnikim. As for presuppositions, everyone must start with them. Rabbi Dr. Slifkin starts with a presupposition that yeshiva guys do not have an effect through the merit of their learning. We both believe in the Gemara so he will have to bring a resolution (terutz).
80% of ALL modern armies are jobnikim. A tank needs a lot more maintenance than a spear. And look at how rotten logistics is stifling the Russians in Ukraine;
But the yeshiva learners refuse to even say Tehillim for the IDF to be מצליח.
Your point is that contemporary chareidim are not following the example of the Chashmonoyim in maintaining an army. I am pointing out that for many chareidim, the problem with the IDF isn't military service per se, but the grave risk that it poses to the religiosity of its members. You know better than I how wonderful, frum dati-leumi boys whose parents invested their blood, sweat, and tears in their upbringing, see them emerge from their service no longer shomer Shabbos. Isn't that a valid concern for chareidi parents? I don't think that parents of Chashmonoi conscripts had such concerns. So to compare the two is non sequitur.
Does your comment re dati-leumi soldiers apply to Hesder?
More importantly, yeshivot won’t even say Tehillim for the well being of the חיילים who protect them. Do chareidim want Hashem not to protect our soldiers???
Did the Maccabee army have the same religious attrition rate that the IDF has?
How is that relevant?
Er, no it doesn't. The IDF is not making Judaism disappear, even among those who serve in it.
Just a test
Personally, I thought the posting was amusing.
"So they were Chabadniks?"
Ha Ha!!!
הָיָה לְפָנָיו עֲשִׂיַּת מִצְוָה וְתַלְמוּד תּוֹרָה. אִם אֶפְשָׁר לַמִּצְוָה לְהֵעָשׂוֹת עַל יְדֵי אֲחֵרִים לֹא יַפְסִיק תַּלְמוּדוֹ. וְאִם לָאו יַעֲשֶׂה הַמִּצְוָה וְיַחֲזֹר לְתַלְמוּדוֹ: (ר"מ הת"ת פ"ג ה"ד)
כבר דייקו מלשון המיותר לכאורה, "וחוזר לתלמודו", שבמצוה כזו (שא"א לעשות ע"י אחרים) מפסיק מתלמודו אם אח"כ יחזור לתלמודו, ובאם שאח"כ לא יחזור אז לא יפסיק.
ולפי"ז נראה שחלוקים צבאות המכבים מצבאות העכשויים בזה, שהמכבים חזרו לתלמודם ולא העכשויים, ושעל כן חויבו המכבים להפסיק והעכשויים לא חויבו ואפילו נאסרו.
Are you aware that the at the time of the chashmonaim NOT A SINGLE Jew's life was at risk. Yet they fought. For ruchniyos. And at Purim time, when lives were at risk, nobody fought. Instead they fasted and prayed. Why do you think that is?
This is a misrepresentation. During Purim the Jews certainly fought their enemies and killed many of them on the 13th and 14th of Adar.
Of course. Only after achashveirosh's permission. No guerilla warfare there.
He misrepresented Purim which isn't the subject. Pretty on the mark about what's more relevant, the Chashmonaic war.
Purim they did indeed fight after Ahashvairosh gave permission and withheld his interference. Who do u think killed thousands of the haters? Go back and read the Megillah.
I think it's the difference between Eretz Israel and chutz laretz. In the land, we have much more to fight for (possession, a jewish kingdom, our nation, the Beit Hamikdash). Outside the land, we are outsiders, people are not prone to fighting on foreign soil the same way.
But the Chafetz Chaim advocated a Maccabean revolt against Misyavnim of his time, it being in chutz laaretz not withstanding.
A small Judean army was able to defeat the Syrian Greeks & celebrated the victory for 8 days because they could not observe the 8 day holiday of Sukkot & Shemini Atzeret during the war. But we are suppose to celebrate the miracle of the temple candelabrum with oil that could not only last one day but lasted eight days. Thoughts??? Shabua Tob!
The miracle of the oil occurred b/c people did not recognize the miracle that was occurring on the battlefield.
Liberation of the Bet Mikdash occurred in year 3 of the revolt. The fighting continued for another 20(?) years.
One reason the miracle of oil has superseded the miracle of the war, and according to the Rambam also the miracle of establishing a meluchah, is that in less than 200 years the Jews were militarily totally defeated by the Romans.
Take a look at Al Hanissim.
This silly leitzonus (yes I know it might be tautological) cheapens you, this blog and all you stand for (including 'rationalist Judaism').
You are annoying . It's his website, he will and can do whatever he wants with it and he has a very big following so it does not cheapen him. The fact that you went all the way to his website and post on it shows that the post is actually doing something and is meaningful enough to the point that you feel a need to comment on it.
Whether or not he can do what he wants is irrelevant to my particular point. As are your supplementary points. And you have no idea how big his following is, anyway. In the social media echo chamber, everybody thinks they have a large following.