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David Staum's avatar

There are no words. My sister said she's been to their house for Shabbat meals. Just a senseless, horrible tragedy. The girls' father told the news that he has been having nightmares while sleeping and wakes up to a reality that was worse than the nightmare. I can't even imagine his pain. I read that and hugged my boys tightly. Hamakom yenachem otam.

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Shimshon's avatar

Raging about Arabs is pointless. So is pondering solutions devoid of clinging to our traditions. It is not about them. It is about us, collectively. Seems like ancient history today, but the below famous story is more appropriate than ever. Sadly, also very timely. Consider, the next time someone claims a mechallel Shabbos or chometz-eater on Pesach in the army is doing more for the Jews than those loyal to our traditions.

https://www.jewishmediaresources.com/93/why-arafat-wont-compromise

by Jonathan Rosenblum, Jerusalem Post, July 28, 2000

Salah Tamari, a former Palestinian terrorist told Israeli journalist Aharon Barnea of the complete transformation he underwent in an Israeli prison. While in prison, he had completely despaired of any hope that the Palestinians would one day realize any of their territorial dreams, and so he was ready to renounce the struggle.

Then, one Pesach, he witnessed his Jewish warder eating a pita sandwich. Tamari was shocked, and asked his jailer how he could so unashamedly eat bread on Pesach.

The Jew replied: 'I feel no obligation to events that took place over 2,000 years ago. I have no connection to that.'

That entire night Tamari could not sleep. He thought to himself: 'A nation whose members have no connection to their past, and are capable of so openly transgressing their most important laws - that nation has cut off all its roots to the Land.'

He concluded that the Palestinians could, in fact, achieve all their goals. From that moment, he determined 'to fight for everything - not a percentage, not such crumbs as the Israelis might throw us - but for everything. Because opposing us is a nation that has no connection to its roots, which are no longer of interest to it.'

Tamari goes on to relate how he shared this insight with 'tens of thousands of his colleagues, and all were convinced.'

THE severance of connection to a Jewish past is one of the chief goals of the branja (clique), which, as alarmingly described by Yoram Hazony in his book, The Jewish State: The Struggle for Israel's Soul, dominates Israeli intellectual life, and whose influence is felt in every sphere - education, the military, and the judiciary.

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Garvin's avatar

But that article was from nearly 25 years ago, describing an event many years before that. Israel has grown more religious and right wing since then. Many more Jews now DO feel the connection to the past.

Of course, us religious Jews have a different problem from the left, and that's this sense of fatalism, that God is in control so it doesn't really matter what we do anyway. This has always been our Achilles Heel, and the reason why it was the left, and not the right, who built Israel and laid the foundation for so many other Jewish institutions.

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Shimshon's avatar

So. It more applicable today. The problems are worse. It's not just about non-observant Jews munching on chometz when they shouldn't. Even "connected" Jews reject our roots. This blog's continued existence is a testament to this fact.

Shaarei Teshuva, Gate 3:160 (translation by Feldheim): "The aspect of "haters of Hashem" can also be found at times among those who perform mitzvos and are scrupulous in avoiding sin, both in deed and in speech -- if they are pained and inwardly troubled when their friends engage in Torah study, and it bothers them when others serve Hashem and fear Him."

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Garvin's avatar

Agreed that even religious people don't always feel their roots, but I dont agree that it has relevance here. Jews in Israel are much, MUCH more connected to tradition than they were in the 1970s or 80s when the (individual) story described in the article took place.

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Shimshon's avatar

No relevance here? Natan says a mechallel Shabbos (or, equivalently, a chometz eater on Pesach) in the army does more for Klal Yisrael than the Shomer Shabbos avrech in kollel. This is a stance that applies for all time, not just now. He would have said the same about the pita eater decades ago. Yet, that pita eater inspired all the Arab activity to this very day. That is relevant. The only way to undo that is to embrace the entirety of our heritage.

I pray Natan has his own sleepless night followed by a similarly powerful transformation, and choose to cease being counted among the Haters of Hashem.

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Garvin's avatar

I meant the story was "not relevant" only in the sense that Israelis as a whole are now more in touch with their roots, and so the story with the prison guard is no longer representative.

Good Yom Tov.

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Shimshon's avatar

True. Kosher restaurants were a rarity in Tel Aviv a mere 20 years ago. Now, they are commonplace.

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Shimshon's avatar

Also, it may be a story of one man, but it is not an individual story. By his own words, he influenced thousands to harden their hearts and take their war to the next level, and everything that has occurred since is due to that one incident.

Meanwhile, limud Torah, "kneged kulam," is an embarrassment at best to people like Natan. He is no different from a m'challel Shabbos in their impact. Even more so as a public figure who spouts odious opinions.

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Stuart Alass's avatar

RNS does not practise what he preaches - he is sending (incidentally, what does that mean? Isn't his son old enough to make his own decisions?) his son to a hesder yeshiva!! So instead of serving the full 3 years his son will only be serving less than 18 months, in order to learn in yeshiva. Doesn't he think it unfair that he will not be "sharing the burden equally" with his non religious brothers? After all, according to RNS, the only justification for full time Torah study is in order to teach, and hesder yeshiva graduates don't usually become rabbinic teachers when they complete their truncated military service.....

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Ash's avatar

Horrific. השם ינקם דמם.

It is events like these that highlight the advantage of the mystical approach. I for one believe that such tragedies have deeper meaning and Hashem has a plan for all of us. מי שמאמין לא מפחד.

In contrast, the rationalist approach looks like tragedies like this as mere coincidence or happenstance. And that loss of meaning is in itself an additional tragedy.

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Uriah’s Wife's avatar

@Ash

What plan is that? Is it the same one that gave us churban bayit rishon, churban bayit shayni, multiple holy inquisitions, the holocaust, to mention just a few of Hashem’s monstrous exterminations. Yeah, there must be a deeper meaning. Let me know what it is when his next carnage smacks you in the face.

If I were you, I’d put my trust in someone other than an entity that kills you every time he feels that he’s been disrespected.

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Ash's avatar

Yeah, that one. The one that also gave me my life, my wife, my beautiful kids, my Parnassus, my anything and everything, and ultimate reward both in this world and the next.

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tayqoo@yahoo.com's avatar

and what is that deeper meaning?

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Ash's avatar

I haven't the faintest. Only Hashem knows. I merely trust him.

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tayqoo@yahoo.com's avatar

And that loss of meaning ....

what meaning is lost? trust is mot a meaning.

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Eli B's avatar

Stories like these are so heartbreaking and frustrating I prefer to switch of Israeli news

On a side point, I may be a British Jew who has to put up with the stream of anti Israeli sentiment in the UK press from even so called neutral papers but to me the Isralei hasbara/PR is woeful

Every time one of these attacks happens the UK press refer to settlements, occupation, apartheid, Al Aksa provocations, etc as if they are to be expected or even tolerated!

Even the BBC stoop to such depths, for example referring to the Paley murders in Ramot being a "settlement in East Jerusalem" (absolute lies)!

About time we called a spade and spade and reiterated one message and one message only:

"There are many Palestinian Muslims who would like to leave in peace alongside their Jewish companions. HOWEVER there are many who wish to murder their Jewish companions purely because they are Jewish infidels!

Nothing to do with territory, occupation, apartheid. Doesn't matter if the govt includes Ben Gvir or Yitzchak Rabin. If the govt is hawkish or doveish. If land is given to the Arabs or taken from them.

This is an ideological war with an enemy who hates us more than they love their own children "

Maybe then the Gentiles will wake up and realise the monster we have to deal with - and be more sympathetic to when we have to deal with the monster

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Richie's avatar

Spending Pesach in Israel makes me feel the pain more.

We look to our leaders to guide us.

And so, tonight in Bnei Brak, when Rav Asher Weiss gave his famous Chol Hamoed Shiur, he took the opportunity to mention the pain we are feeling about the loss of these two sisters, as well as the loss of two brothers recently as well.

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jim's avatar

good article on Israel winning the conflict

https://www.danielpipes.org/21639/how-can-israel-win-the-palestinian-conflict

How Can Israel Win the Palestinian Conflict?

Historian Explains

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Apr 9, 2023
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Yaacov Lyons's avatar

Agreed. Corbyn is far far worse.

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Apr 9, 2023
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Jim's avatar

Generosity towards undefeated enemies which Israel does, invited more terror. See Gaza withdrawal.

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Apr 9, 2023
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Garvin's avatar

He pretended to be in the center, but the moment he had a chance to gain power he veered left, made a coalition with other leftists, and governed like a leftist during Covid.

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Sam's avatar

I am surprised you didn't mention the antisemitism your descendents would be likely to face, in the future as Jews in non-jewish counties. And large scale persecultion or even extermination like we saw in the holocaust or other pogroms and massacres

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Joe Berry's avatar

There are no words that can adequately describe the horror of the murder of the two girls.

Rabbi Slifkin, you describe the awful realities of our situation in Israel; but you don't present a solution. I didn't really expect to see one as I don't know if there really is a solution. Israel screwed up several times in our history, namely in 1948 and in 1967. We should never have allowed Arab refugee camps to exist in the first place. Historically, populations have moved as a result of wars and border changes. As an example, somewhere between 14 and 18 MILLION people were resettled due to the partition of India and Pakistan. Country after country has done this (see the subject "Popularion_transfer" in Wikipedia)... except for Israel. But, unfortunately, it appears to be too late now. So we're stuck with this horrible reality.

One thing I am certain of is this: only from a position of strength will we have any chance to survive (al pi tevah, at least). Peace (or should we say 'quiet') comes from strength. We must have a strong, pro-active, pro-Jewish government for there to be any semblence of peace. Capitulation and kum-ba-yah peace talks show the Arabs that we are weak and can be overcome and destroyed. That, unfortunately, is the real reality.

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Apr 10, 2023
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Jim's avatar

Not a model you want to emulate.

....

In retrospect, If Israel had expelled all of them, Thousands of innocent Jewish lives would have been saved, which makes it perfectly justified.

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Jim's avatar

We should have lobbied harder to not allow Arab refugee camps to exist in the first place

The arabs were in a weak position in '48 Israel could have conditioned its acceptance of the armistice treaty on Arabs absorbing its refugees as did Israel

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Jim's avatar

Syria and Lebanon, are failed states that are so weak that they can't make peace now.

...

The reason they cannot make peace is that their hatred of Israel overcomes their desire to get out of their weakness. If they were weaker still there may be some hope

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Joe Berry's avatar

I'm not talking about the Arab countries surrounding Israel (well, we must learn to ignore some of their dumb demands of us). I'm talking about the Arabs who live in the merkaz and south, the ones that call themselves Palestinians. You show weakness to them and that simply provokes them more and more.

The Arabs in the north (where I live) are Israelis. Yes, there are occasional problems but those are mostly hoodlum or criminal related, not nationalistic. These Arabs are doctors (2 of mine), policemen, and hold every other kind of job you might think of.

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Shui Haber's avatar

המקום ינחם אתכם

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Just Curious's avatar

ה׳ יקום דמם

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Mgorin's avatar

* shaming not shaking!

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Mgorin's avatar

Clarification- when I say Palestinian society, I mean the ideas that clearly 1. Teach hate 2. Glorify terrorists 3. Actively (and sadly sometimes successfully) try to deny who Jews are and erase our connection to our land.

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Mgorin's avatar

There is no permanent solution, however the honor/shame mentality needs to be front and center in the minds of the Israeli leaders meaning that we need to stop 1/2 measures when we decide to engage. That when is not for me as an American to decide. There are other actions that need to be taken though imho. The complete dismantle of UNRWRA schools that teach hate. And I don’t understand why Israel’s PR is so bad. The shaking of Palestinians who are terrorists should be front and center. No one cares how good Israel is, the world hates Jews. But as we let media, especially Israeli media demonize it’s own rather than bring how awful Palestinian society is, would be a step forward.

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Shimshon's avatar

Your words betray you. You are not sending your son, a grown man, to hesder. He is making the choice, perhaps with your encouragement, and is going with your blessing. There is a difference. May Hashem protect him along with all our soldiers.

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David Ohsie's avatar

Is Hesder Yeshiva free in Israel? I sent my kids to college and Yeshiva despite them choosing their destinations.

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Shimshon's avatar

You're nitpicking with me on his choice of words and how much credit should accrue to him based on his financial contribution? No. He's taking credit for his son's choice, regardless. Is there no low you will stoop to in search of a score? Further, you don't even know the answer to the question and yet still claim it as support for your argument. Stick to what you know.

I have two sons who served in combat units. I didn't "send" them.

I also have a son who told me four years ago he desired to make Torah his occupation, and I do support him financially to some degree to this day. He told his wife to be he would live in a cave if he had to, for the sake of learning Torah. I did not "send" him to engage in what I admire and respect. The only credit I take is raising my children such that they understood it would be a choice I support.

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David Ohsie's avatar

Your comment is premised on nitpicking the word “send”. The point of the piece is that he and his wife chose to live in Israel and live in a DL community where IDF service is the norm for boys despite the increased personal risk. Do parents take pride in their children’s choices? Yes, guilty as charged. That’s a good thing not a bad thing. I also respect you choice to no use the word send with your kids if you feel it inappropriate.

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Shimshon's avatar

You're not writing a blog that Substack says has thousands of subscribers. More than that, that you feel the need to White Knight for him says much about you. Is he a damsel in distress that you feel the need to defend a poor choice of wording as well as my extremely minor criticism of the same? It's rather pathetic. Silence in this case would have been the better choice.

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David Ohsie's avatar

Yes I think it would be a waste of his valuable time to respond to comment threads reading the entrails of his word choices.

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Shimshon's avatar

A waste of his time, but not yours? What are you, his secretary? My words were directed at him, not you. You are literally wasting your time reading or responding. If he doesn't read them, I lose nothing. If you do, and further respond, well, it's just entertainment.

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Garvin's avatar

Indeed, it is quite revealing. Concerning his daughter going to the army, only a few months ago NS wrote, " While I am immensely proud of my daughter, her CHOSEN PATH is still jarring for me." (emphasis mine.) He thus consciously absolves himself of the decision making process. Yet for his son, he writes that he "IS SENDING" him to hesder, as though it was NS's decision to take credit for.

Now why this shift in language? Perhaps it is bc NS knows, in his heart, that the very concept of a "female soldier" is contrary to human nature, whereas no parent could be more proud than of a son in the army. Or perhaps it simply reflects more drinking from the liberal fountain, in which no female can ever be questioned, guided, or led, whereas the same is perfectly expected for men. Either way, the words, as you say, betray him.

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Mikhail Olivson's avatar

With all the brilliant minds in Israel, how come it is so difficult to counter the 1950s KGB propaganda that created the concept of the "Palestinian" peoplehood?

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Ephraim's avatar

Because it doesn't matter. Why? Because many peoplehoods" in the world are rather recent. The Jewish connection to the Land of Israel certainly predates the "Palestinian" connect by centuries. But where is that argument going to work? The Scotts are recent to Scotland, the Hungarians are not indigenous to Hungary, and the Turks invaded Turkey. Israel's Jews preceded the emergence of all these other peoples. Are they going to be sympathetic to the claims of a people whose existence predates their own by centuries?

Your point is valid, but it implicitly negates the nationalism of the peoples you want to convince with your counter-propaganda!

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Mikhail Olivson's avatar

We need to convince ourselves. As long as we have Jews who hate Haredim more than they fear terrorists, we have no chance.

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Mikhail Olivson's avatar

I'd suggest the Rabbi watch some of Corey Gil-Shuster's videos on YouTube. I'm sure even living in Israel one will be surprised as to how deep the hate runs.

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ACJA's avatar

This is the tragedy of the Human condition and especially the Jewish condition. And, it hurts the more when it is so close to home. If the USA MSM media reports this unthinkable cowardly despicable act of the killing innocent females they will of course mention that Israel has killed some palastinians or Israel is an Arpartheid state or some other sickening rationalization. For starters the world must condemn these acts, otherwise it is as if they condone them and they will never stop. Part of me thinks such vile acts should not go unrevenged, but hopefully revenged against the non innocent.

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