There is basically not one halacha that there is not disagreement among the poskim.
I have a friend, that when his wife has a question in the home - he tell her it is good. He says there are those who hold it is permitted, and he holds like them. He does not know who exactly they are, but there are those that say it is okay.
And you know what he is right, he most probably can find several that are in his court.
So how do you definitively ascertain which posek has Hashem’s unmistaken imprimatur? Which one reflects His true halachic commandment, seeing that He hasn’t spoken directly to anybody since Moshe and a few Neveeim millennia ago?
When your books were banned, several decades ago, I reassessed my understanding of the meaning of "Daas Torah".
Until that time, I had thought that the "Gedolim" were not only experts in Torah, but had the wisdom and understanding to know that when confronted with a Halachic issue that involved specialized knowledge, they would have the humility to consult with experts in the field before making a ruling.
This was certainly true of Gedolim of pervious generations. people like the Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Moshe, or Rav Shlomo Zalman would regularly consult with doctors, scientists, engineers, lawyers, or other experts before making a Halachic ruling. This is also true for many modern Poskei Halacha in our generation. During Carona the (then) Chief Rabbi would regularly consult with doctors and experts from Ministry of Health before making rulings about issues related to the pandemic (For example, how should burial be handled by people who died from the disease without putting people handling the body at risk, how can someone in isolation or intensive care hear Parshat Zachor, how can minyanim be established without putting people at risk, etc). Rav Lau recently published a book of his Tshuvot from that period, and it is full of expert opinions on which his rulings are based.
However, when your books were banned I came to the realization that there are many people who are regarded as Haredi Gedolim who don't believe that it is necessary to get all the relevant information before making a ruling.
Today a common refrain I have heard from Haredi apologists is that there is no manpower shortage the army, and the IDF has enough soldiers without drafting Bochrim. I do not know if a single "Gadol" has spoken to experts from the army, the finance ministry, and psychologists, to determine how many soldiers the army currently has, how many they need to maintain the war, how many Miluimnikim are being called up for the second, third or forth time, and what the mental health and economic implications of that are etc.
Instead, as far as I can tell (and I would be happy to be proven wrong), they made a proclamation that "The Army has enough soldiers", without making any attempt to back up the claim with data, and because the "Gedolim" have spoken, and they have studied lots of Gemara, therefore it must be true.
End of discussion (At least for people who accept the Haredi understanding of "Daas Torah".
There’s a Russian proverb: "If you're so smart, why are you so poor?" If the Ultra-Orthodox leaders of past and present generations are so wise, why have they done nothing against discrimination, assimilation, pogroms, or the current threat of being drafted into the Israeli army, besides organizing mass prayers, reading Psalms, and printing angry pamphlets?
Can you name one Gadol you ever met over the last 2 decades who you can prove "doesn't believe" it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling? Understand that if one issues a ruling you disagree with based on the information you have, that person may have information from someone who you didn't consult with who thinks differently. Ever heard of a Machlokes Haposkim? Better yet, can you name the MO Gedolim? Even better, can you name any MO Gedolim who don't confer with the recognized Chareidi Gedolim or acknowledge that the Chareidi Gedolim Natan despises and demeans are THE Gedolei Hador?
I have not met any of the Haredi Gedolim, so I can't prove anything from direct conversations. However I have read published tshuvot from Gedolim like Rav Moshe, Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Melamed, Rav Mordechai Eliayahu, Rav Ovadia, Rav Shlomo Avineir, Rav Goren, and Rav David Lau, where they quote discussions that they had with experts in the field which helped them reach the conclusion in their Psak.
Many of these Gedolim reached conclusions that I disagree with (Based on the rulings of other rabbis), but it is possible to learn their tshuva and understand how they came to their conclusion based on all the required Halachic knowledge together with expert opinion. This was the normal way that rabbis worked in previous generation, and RZ and MO rabbis continue to work today.
I'm not sure who you define as "The Gedolei Hador", but please direct me to a published tshuva on a major life and death question, that effects the lives of thousands of people, (like whether Bochrim should serve in the army, or whether schools should be closed during a Pandemic) where they quote experts in the field whose opinion helped them come to their ruling.
I don't know what Rabbi Melamed thinks about Chareidi Gedolim or if he confers with them, but I do know he's on record calling for IDF soldiers to disobey orders if it came into conflict with their religious beliefs (which is just soooo different from Chareidi Gedolim telling their followers not to enlist since the IDF doesn't conform with THEIR religious beliefs). Wonder why Natan would consider him a true Gadol?
Actually not. Slifkin doesn't believe Chareidi Gedolim can be considered "Gedolim" because they tell their Talmidim not to enlist in the IDF, yet considers Rav Melamed a "Gadol" when he tells his Talmidim to disobey IDF orders. I'm not negating Rabbi Melamed; I'm just pointing out Slifkin's blatant hypocrisy.
Rav Slifkin, did not fault the Gedolim for having an opinion that he disagrees with, that is the nature of Halacha. His point was that the Gedolim reached this conclusion without consulting experts in the field or any indication that they were even aware of all of the factors involved in their decision (i.e, factors that are not written in the Gemara).
I don't know the details of Rav Melamed's Psak about refusing orders, but if he made the Pask based only on political considerations, without consulting any experts, than you would have a valid point that Rav Slifkin's opinion is not consistent. However, I suspect that Rav Melamed consulted military and security experts before making his Psak (which is typical in his method of Psak), and based on their input came to the conclusion that there are specific orders which should be disobeyed, (BTW - that is also the policy of the army, soldiers are taught to identify and disobey an order with a "Black Flag" over it).
If you show me a Psak from a Gadol explaining why and when it is forbidden to join the IDF, and the psak includes expert opinion to back up the ruling (e.g., after consulting with the manpower division, he came to the conclusion that there is not currently a shortage of soldiers), then the Pask would be legitimate, and even though I personally would disagree with the conclusion.
If he made the Psak without showing that he has a full understanding of all the consequences of the ruling, than it shows that something in the system if broken.
I don't know what Rabbi Melamed thinks about Chareidi Gedolim or if he confers with them, but I do know he's on record calling for IDF soldiers to disobey orders if it came into conflict with their religious beliefs (which is just soooo different from Chareidi Gedolim telling their followers not to enlist since the IDF doesn't conform with THEIR religious beliefs). Wonder why Natan would consider him a true Gadol?
"Can you name one Gadol you ever met over the last 2 decades who you can prove "doesn't believe" it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling? "
This is unclear. First, it's insufficient to "believe it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling?" Belief aside, it's necessary to actually get the necessary information. It's all too simple to make assumptions, or to infer incorrectly from relevant information. I've seen a "psak" (not from a major posek) based on incorrect inference from a scientific fact. The fact was casually mentioned in a certain sefer (I think it was משך חכמה). It was weird that the author cited the sefer as a scientific authority, and it was weirder that the fact was extrapolated into utter nonsense. That author certainly believed "it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling". But so what?
Furthermore, when דעת תורה is presented as epistemologically touching upon prophecy, then you're no longer dealing with the necessity of getting relevant information. Prophecy and its lesser variants are not about getting information in a conventional manner.
Excerpt from Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer's "Haskamah" to Rabbi Mordechai Yaakov Bereish's book, Helkat Ya'akov, (1951), Tel Aviv, Orach Haim:
"I have to inform him that I cannot fulfill his request that my words about his book constitute consent, because his entire book is about questions and answers to Halacha. And I, it has been close to thirty years since I left Slutsk (where I passed laws for the community). I am far from matters of Halacha and teaching, and all my business is Only in yeshiva and my work is to say Hidushei Torah'".
Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer was the president of the Gedolei haTorah Council
Excellent piece, very well articulated. The only thing that's missing is addressing the Charedi claim that "Daas Torah" is supernatural. So rational argumentation against the idea that gedolim don't have expertise in hashkafic questions isn't fully relevant. While this topic has been thoroughly discussed in this blog and even more so in the comments, it still warrants at least a brief mention
Perhaps someone could point us to even a single teshuva or essay by Rav Landau, Rav Elyashiv, Rav Chaim Kanievsky, or Rav Shach that demonstrates even a basic understanding of the "metzius" behind ANY matter having to do with how to practically respond to changing technical or communal realities?
Does anyone know of ANYTHING written by ANY of them where their discussion of the underlying metzius (ANY nuanced metzius -- scientific, sociolological, technical, psychological, educational) is on a level of competency that would merit a passing grade on a secular high school 12th grade essay?
You must be smarter than Dr. Daniel Clair of the Cleveland Clinic, who operated on Rav Elyashiv, and who was impressed with the medical questions Rav Elyashiv asked him.
He made a comparison with Rav Elyashiv and RCK. Rav Elyashiv was active in a formal position that required making decisions. RCK did not hold such a position.
Oh, what a genius! Someone lied to Rav Chaim and got him to make a Bracha which Halacha would have called for him to do had the information been correct. The same way MO Rabbanim are fooled into thinking Techeiles is real and whoever doesn't wear is mevatel a Mitzvah. Or the same way some MO rabbis permit women to reveal their hair and parts of their body which are supposed to be covered in direct opposition to OC 75 (Vehameivin Yovin). Maybe "Metzius" has different meanings for different people?
As for Metzius, there's a reason Rabbanim from all spectrums of Orthodoxy deferred to Rav Chaim Kanievsky and not Natan Slifkin for psak.
Most broad people would not have accepted the lie without some professional scepticism. Especially knowing how strictly rishonim and acharonim treat a brocho levatolo (with so many clever solutions out there to avoid cases when the halochoh is not clear - heard of the yeshivish minhag to make shehakol on a candy between kiddishu rabboh and that cup of coffee, due to all the sheilos how and when wine patturs shar mashkim)?
Do you know what Daas Torah is? If you did, you most probably would not have posted such a stupid comment. Actually, you would have. Someone who claims anyone admitted to an ICU has the status of a Goseis, that 99% of medical Shailos don't need a Posek, or that Jewish doctors know all the Halachos and don't need Rabbis is not someone with, shall we say, a high IQ...
Google is nothing to do with it. The average non-charedi-Gadoll is savvy enough to realize that just because someone claims or is claimed to be an African king, it doesn't mean that he actually is one. And before staking anything on it - such as reciting Hashem's Name - he would know of ways to check it out.
This has nothing to do with charedi and non-charedi. There are plenty of Charedi gedolim who know about the world, and can consult with experts when the need arises. (As a contrast, RCK's own father cited (disapprovingly!) Immanuel Kant.) The problem is that דעת תורה ideology confered authority to RCK in matters where he neither claimed authority nor in which he issue a psak in the conventional sense of the term.
Since you have such disdain for Chareidi opinions about Rav Chaim Kanievsky, you ought to read what a certain non-Chareidi wrote about him ()when he was in his low 40s and was not so well-known)...
Did you ever read Derech Emuna or Shekel Hakodesh by Rav Chaim Kanievsky? you can start there and get back to me (that is, if you make it past the first page...).
Yes, but only a little. Where in דרך אמונה do you see anything beyond genius and a complete mastery of the traditional halachic sources? Have you seen insights that indicate an impressive knowledge of contemporary application of such הלכות - beyond that which is already found in works like the חזון איש? Do you see there knowledge of מציאות as מציאות and not book knowledge?
You lost the plot, so let me get you back on track.
Shlomo didn't bring up דרך אמונה, that was Yoni. Yoni was responding to Shlomo's challenge to find a source which displays "even a basic understanding of the "metzius" behind ANY matter having to do with how to practically respond to changing technical or communal realities". It would follow that Yoni was considering at least one passage in said volumes that meets the criteria mentioned by Shlomo.
You then suggest that in order for Yoni to cite a passage he needs an equivalent example from Shlomo. But if Yoni didn't know what Shlomo meant, why did he respond so confidentially with the example of דרך אמונה? Why would he initially cite that ספר if he wasn't "able to find a corresponding comparative example" without Shlomo's help?
Oh, I'm sure he can point to Rabbi David Stav's Teshuva about going to movies and looking away when an inappropriate image is shown, or Rabbi Yssoscher Katz' Teshuva permitting women to nurse in public in Shul...but I wouldn't be able to find something comparable in, say, Igros Moshe or Minchas Shlomo!
Right on cue, the standard Charedi insult "You must think you're smarter than X you egotistical fool!" In the real world being smart doesn't make you an expert. And expertise in one field doesn't give it in anything else.
I am, no false pride or modesty, pretty darned smart. But in anything from urban planning to diesel mechanics to knitting there are loads of people who know the field, and I don't. So my first reflex is to listen to them when they are talking about the things they are good at even if by some standard I was given a larger helping of brains. And people who I know are much smarter than I listen when we are dealing with areas in my competence.
.... and people who are geniuses at the top of their field can be wrong for any number of reasons. The really good ones recognize it since they have screwed the pooch more times than most others have even attempted
Gotta say, someone asking their doctor relevant medical questions is a pretty low bar for exhibiting impressive understanding. What are the relevant time stamps in the interview? Does he go into detail about the questions?
See mark 3:30 he asks - What are the chances of Success, What are the risks, What are the benefits etc. things that any other normal avg person will ask a doctor. However, if it is Reb Eliyashiv who asks these questions - he becomes brilliant in medical procedures.
He does say he has a "better understanding compare to other layman (Rov)"people .He gives no samples but wants to play along with the interviewer, who is leading him. He says nowhere he is an expert in the medical field
I remember meeting a Phd student in some esoteric field. I mentioned some of the concepts in that field, and the student was amazed that a layman would know such esoterica. I had to admit that my knowledge of the field could be summarized in one short paragraph- and that I had exhausted my "expertise" in less than ten seconds! I just got "lucky" that I was able toss out a few buzzwords that 99% of the population couldn't.
So often a little knowledge can impress the lonely experts who work in a field that is sparsely populated.
The great poskim were not experts in the sense of university professors. But they had the ability to grasp the essence of such topics, achieving enough understanding to issue a psak relating to that field. That minimal competence is indeed impressive, because it is rare among the laymen of the world. (In some cases the posek does achieve mastery in these fields- but that's very rare, especially among those without a formal education.)
I’m going to try to present the missing piece to your understanding of this subject, which is the same for many academic types: There are two distinct approaches to Torah study. One is to be motivated primarily by an objective approach to knowledge based on the belief that this is a Torah value. Another is to be motivated to live the life our Creator has in mind for us to achieve a certain state of being, generally identified with connection /similarity to G-d. If you follow the latter view, leaders have a whole new consideration, which is the current state of the population and what will actually lead them towards that desired state and what might lead them away. It is a historical fact that the haskala decimated the Torah-committed community and the charedi predecessors therefore demonized it. The truth, they will argue, is only meaningful to the extent that you live it. If being formally correct about something leads you away from G-d, your life is a lie (as there is no truth other than G-d) and therefore the “correct” fact is wrong, even if it is not false. This is why charedim, and even more so American yeshivish, have a party line about things but when you get close to leading thinkers who trust you, you get a far more nuanced picture. They take full responsibility for the future of their entire community in everything they say and care about that far more than what is technically accurate. Their question to you is no doubt the following: If everyone followed your leadership, what would the Jewish people look like in fifty or a hundred years? [I am not charedi and am deeply disturbed with much of what we hear from them. But I am similarly disturbed about much of what I hear from you.]
Perhaps on reason, as one of mine is, is because the haredi Rabbonim considered to be Gedolim have only one tool their tool box, which is, "We don't change."
While resistance to change is generally a good idea when it comes to Jewish continuity , it cannot be the only Jewish response to every communal challenge.
I think the battle to save Torah was already won by the charedim in Israel and yeshivish elsewhere. It was a fierce battle fought by a small and weak group who could not afford to let down the walls. But this is now a large and strong group who should be using their social strength to meet the challenges of the time, which require engagement with the modern world including the state of Israel with the chayn and chesed that reflects the derech haTorah instead of what comes across as obnoxiousness, which sickens me. I guess I am a hybrid, living in a yeshivish community outside of Israel but hashkafically identifying more with right wing YU. I trust the direction of an open-minded yeshivish community more than right wing YU - especially for educating children.
See my original comment. For their community, with all the givens they’ve accumulated and the limitations they have, it’s not so easy to say that so forcefully. The Torah is only meaningful as a guide to life and they never had an off-ramp that would have allowed them to make the changes you believe they should have (and that I wish they would have) without at least a high risk of crashing. I can mostly forgive that they have not tried enough. While I certainly agree they’ve (I don’t like this word, as there is really no simple “they”) corrupted parts of Torah to varying degrees, most of which relate to engaging with the modern world, it’s not beyond recognition. You look at them with ayin raah and see too much bad. Look with ayin tova more often. It will help your perspective endlessly.
You live in the US, right? Here in Israel, when there's a terrible war going on for a year and the charedi community is simply not involved and doesn't care, their Torah is corrupted beyond recognition.
Many of us in Israel are involved and we do care. You can be angry and hate us because we are not serving in the army, but please don't say we simply don't care. And please don't respond that not joining the army means we don't care, I know you are intelligent enough to see beyond that shallow false dichotomy.
We donate thousands of shekels to soldiers, we cook food for them every week, we daven and cry. Maybe it's not enough for you, but we care deeply.
Yes I do. From the outside, it's hard to argue with you. From the inside, they had a wall up already. It's not meaningless to say that aside from their engagement with the rest of the world, which they have blocked out and don't have any means of dealing with, their early 20th century Judaism is not corrupted. It's just very harmfully and sadly outdated. And I still maintain that they may not be wrong that their society would unravel and suffer immeasurably if they follow your guidance
But don't you think their disattachment from the outside world has only been made possible and sustainable thanks to the DL world, for instance the ideologically-motivated DL combat soldiers who are fighting on haredim's behalf?
Add to that the DL and MO physicians whom they run to, both in EY and the US and who are also the catalysts for halachicly-acceptable treatments for fertility issues, for instance?
In other words, haredism is a luxury belief and practice, only made possible by those who are not haredi, including Israeli and American taxpayers.
Right but visa versa. 50 years ago the dati world didn't have much of an עולם התורה, much of the התחזקות תורנית we see today in our communities came from datim taking certain aspects from the chareidim like building yeshivot and kollelim as well as a more insular community (which admittedly has its drawbacks). If there was no Torah example though we would not be in a good place. My Rosh Yeshiva Rav Sabato was mocked by his classmates when he told them he was doing Hesder and not full service. My Rosh Kollel Rav Elisha Aviner remembers a time when every dati who drafted would return without a kipa. While chareidim need to thank Israel for their material infrastructure we need to acknowledge the chareidi role in the spiritual infrastructure.
Swing and a big miss, sorry. In all your examples, those who benefit work with the others and provide their own benefit and express acknowledgement and appreciation. Charedim reject everyone else but accept the benefits while providing no benefit anyone else appreciates very much. But I don't understand how Shlomo's question affects my point. It's just one of the disturbing things about charedim that does not take away from what is great about them
I personally agree with what you wrote, but I don't think it will help the confused woman who asked you the question.
For people like her, I think it's also important to point out that our greatest sages didn't always agree with each other, and sometimes in very substantial ways. Everybody knows about the many disagreements between Hillel and Shammai, and I'm sure you could come up with dozens if not hundreds of additional examples.
Today, in the absence of a Sanhedrin or other equivalent body with the authority to make decisions binding on all Jews, everything is local. You follow the rabbi that your community chooses to follow. And if you disagree in some fundamental way that you can't reconcile, you may find yourself forced to move to a different community. Much like you yourself did on your own personal journey.
It is necessary to explain the source of halachic authority in the communities of Israel. It is given to the designated rabbi in the coronation letter. It is indicated there, what the rabbi's role will be and what the community authorizes him to do. In most communities there is a dayan and he deals with all the rulings of Halacha, including kosher. The rabbi of the community, who is not a judge, is not authorized by the community to rule on anything. It follows from this that a head of yeshiva who is not a dayan, was never authorized to rule on anything, and is not allowed to express himself in halachic rulings. But, in the ultra-orthodox public, all the "Torah greats" are yeshiva leaders who have never been authorized by any community to be judges. Therefore, the value of all the "rulings of the Torah greats" is 100% scholarly and 0% halachic. In contrast to them, the religious Zionist rabbis who ruled on military conscription were judges: Rabbis Herzog, Uziel, Nissim and Unterman, Israeli, Goren and others. Therefore, from the halachic point of view, only the rulings of these rabbis have halachic validity and authority
Keep in mind also that to serve or not to serve in the IDF is not a halachic "psak" in the normal sense of the word; the few relevant sources can be interpreted any way you want. Ultimately, it's a hashkafic judgment. The Chazon Ish famously said you can't serve because it was "written on his heart". (Of course, that was 75 years ago, and then only for 50 years!)
What is that woman's problem? If the rules are not clear, or if there are no rules, do what the Torah says (דברים ו':י"ח: וועשית הישר יהטוב) and follow your conscience. Or your gut feeling.
I would rather hear what the Torah says from someone who learned the Torah than from someone who didn't...but I can see why you're jealous people ask them for their Torah opinions and not you.
..and plenty of OO, conservative, and reform rabbis did as well (the former more than the latter).
The difference is pretty simple: DL Gedolim believe in Zionism, so their entire Hashkafa has to fit with Zionism. All the Torah they learn has to fit with Zionism. If there is a contradiction between Zionism and Torah, Zionism will win.
The Chareidi Gedolim don't believe in Zionism, and spend their entire lives learning Torah. Hence, all their Hashkafa has to fit with the Torah.
The same is true with your Hashkafa as well. You attempt to reconcile Torah with Zionism and Science, among many other subjects, including IDF service, not vice versa.
That, I believe, is the reason your books were banned. You found many Gedolim who supported your views (as you find now among DL Rabbis), but the difference is they tried reconciling the Metzius with the Torah, not vice versa. Torah is not something you play around with and try to adapt to whatever way you wish...but "I know, you don't really acknowledge this."
The difference is pretty simple: haredi Gedolim believe in anti-Zionism, so their entire Hashkafa has to fit with anti-Zionism. All the Torah they learn has to fit with anti-Zionism. If there is a contradiction between anti-Zionism and Torah, anti-Zionism will win.
Same thing with your other example, the Slifkin ban. When there was a contradiction between Torah sources and haredi hashkofa, the Torah sources became irrelevant and haredi hashkofa won.
"Same thing with your other example, the Slifkin ban. When there was a contradiction between Torah sources and haredi hashkofa,"
Not quite. Haredi hashkafa was suddenly purged at that time. RNS did not break new ground or issue novelties, but distilled positions that had already achieved wide currency in the Charedi world, if not perhaps the more cloistered corners of Bnei Brak. There was no contradiction until the Great Purge.
You have no idea how the 'halachik process' works (or used to work) do you?
Look at the early poskim who discussed hetter iskah in its various forms- several write along the lines of "we need to find a way to allow this, because otherwise our people will be destitute". Much development in 'torah' took place to allow people to have easier lives.
You wouldn't know this, because chareidi halocho is now frozen, that is a very modern approach and not traditional.
chareidim have no biases? Just pure Torah? They need to fit Torah with the worldview they constructed for the past couple of hundred years (or 70 years if we're talking about bnei brak).
To elaborate, I'm reminded of Benjamin Franklin's admonition to John Adams in the musical play 1776 (and totally the words of librettist Peter Stone):
"These men, no matter how much we may disagree with them, are not ribbon clerks to be ordered about - they are proud, accomplished men, the cream of their colonies. And whether you like them or not, they and the people they represent will be part of this new nation that YOU hope to create."
In other words, argument is fine, but mockery is not.
Genuinely curious here — could you list the non-chareidi Gedolim who fit your criteria? For what it’s worth, I think Rav Asher Weiss might be one of them (though he is definitely chareidi). I’d love to hear their views on army service and whether they believe one should leave yeshiva to join the army.
You touch on this a bit, but the concept of what counts as due diligence, for any rabbi making any decision needs to be fleshed out. Should gedolim need to have interviewed (a spectrum of) soldiers? What about rabbis making decisions for women without their input? (e.g. Herschel Schachter forbidding women's tefillah groups without speaking to any of the organizers)
Call me a heretic, but knowledge beats ignorance. Truth beats appeal to authority. Taking one's duties as a leader responsible for the well being of followers requires addressing the world as it is rather than as one wishes it were.
"You need a baseline level of knowledge to be worthy of the title of heretic"
I'm not sure about that. The Gemara says one who says "Mai Ahani Lan Rabana" is an Apikores, and that would make most people on this blog (from the top down) heretics. But I agree with you that he doesn't have a baseline level of knowledge...
Note that the Gemara also says that any talmid chacham who lacks daas is worse than a stinking carcass. Clearly not every talmid chacham is considered beneficial.
And just who are you to decide who has Daas? Just because they don't agree with your self-described "Rationalist Judaism" approach, that means they lack Daas?
No, you misunderstood my point. My point was that your claim that the Gemara's statement about rabbanan necessarily and automatically applies to charedi gedolim is false.
Intellectual and reputational competition among Torah scholars is nothing new. But if referring to the Gedolim with a ‘TM’ is really legit, now that is totally cynical.
I did that because having the title "Gadol" is not due to Torah wisdom, but rather it occurs when the powerbrokers in the charedi community decide that it is advantagous to crown certain people with that title. And those who are not chosen, no matter how greater their Torah wisdom, are not given that title.
Example: Rav Moshe Sternbuch and Rav Shmuel Auerbach. Marginalized due to politics and not due some lack in Torah knowledge- which is/was unparalleled.
Interesting to note that in the biography of Rav Shmuel Auerbach, it quotes Rav Dov Landau telling Rabbi Nosson Sherman's son that there was a weekly get-together of many Gedolei Roshei Yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel where they would discuss a wide range of Sugyos. Rav Dov said Rav Shmuel was head and shoulders above all of them, as there was not a topic mentioned where Rav Shmuel didn't possess an astonishing breadth of knowledge.
I can look no further than the current (secular) president of Israel, Isaac Herzog, who met with Rav Shmuel for over 2 hours and told his associates that while he doesn't agree with Rav Shmuel's position (since he comes from a different background and Hashkafa) he completely understands them and achieved a clarity with regard to that Hashkafa that he never heard anywhere else....
Who cares what herzog says? His followers are violent thugs. Rav Friedman even told achim laneshek that were not a nation! Distortion of Torah at its finest.
"How can experts in Torah take diametrically opposed viewpoints on such a thing?"
Just wait until she hears about this thing called the Talmud...
Lol, good point
There is basically not one halacha that there is not disagreement among the poskim.
I have a friend, that when his wife has a question in the home - he tell her it is good. He says there are those who hold it is permitted, and he holds like them. He does not know who exactly they are, but there are those that say it is okay.
And you know what he is right, he most probably can find several that are in his court.
@Saul Katz
So how do you definitively ascertain which posek has Hashem’s unmistaken imprimatur? Which one reflects His true halachic commandment, seeing that He hasn’t spoken directly to anybody since Moshe and a few Neveeim millennia ago?
When your books were banned, several decades ago, I reassessed my understanding of the meaning of "Daas Torah".
Until that time, I had thought that the "Gedolim" were not only experts in Torah, but had the wisdom and understanding to know that when confronted with a Halachic issue that involved specialized knowledge, they would have the humility to consult with experts in the field before making a ruling.
This was certainly true of Gedolim of pervious generations. people like the Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Moshe, or Rav Shlomo Zalman would regularly consult with doctors, scientists, engineers, lawyers, or other experts before making a Halachic ruling. This is also true for many modern Poskei Halacha in our generation. During Carona the (then) Chief Rabbi would regularly consult with doctors and experts from Ministry of Health before making rulings about issues related to the pandemic (For example, how should burial be handled by people who died from the disease without putting people handling the body at risk, how can someone in isolation or intensive care hear Parshat Zachor, how can minyanim be established without putting people at risk, etc). Rav Lau recently published a book of his Tshuvot from that period, and it is full of expert opinions on which his rulings are based.
However, when your books were banned I came to the realization that there are many people who are regarded as Haredi Gedolim who don't believe that it is necessary to get all the relevant information before making a ruling.
Today a common refrain I have heard from Haredi apologists is that there is no manpower shortage the army, and the IDF has enough soldiers without drafting Bochrim. I do not know if a single "Gadol" has spoken to experts from the army, the finance ministry, and psychologists, to determine how many soldiers the army currently has, how many they need to maintain the war, how many Miluimnikim are being called up for the second, third or forth time, and what the mental health and economic implications of that are etc.
Instead, as far as I can tell (and I would be happy to be proven wrong), they made a proclamation that "The Army has enough soldiers", without making any attempt to back up the claim with data, and because the "Gedolim" have spoken, and they have studied lots of Gemara, therefore it must be true.
End of discussion (At least for people who accept the Haredi understanding of "Daas Torah".
Rabbi Hershel Schachter also wrote some wonderful tshuvot during that period. Are they being published?
There’s a Russian proverb: "If you're so smart, why are you so poor?" If the Ultra-Orthodox leaders of past and present generations are so wise, why have they done nothing against discrimination, assimilation, pogroms, or the current threat of being drafted into the Israeli army, besides organizing mass prayers, reading Psalms, and printing angry pamphlets?
The response is predictable: "imagine how much worse it would be *without* the leader's intelligence and our prayers!"
Can you name one Gadol you ever met over the last 2 decades who you can prove "doesn't believe" it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling? Understand that if one issues a ruling you disagree with based on the information you have, that person may have information from someone who you didn't consult with who thinks differently. Ever heard of a Machlokes Haposkim? Better yet, can you name the MO Gedolim? Even better, can you name any MO Gedolim who don't confer with the recognized Chareidi Gedolim or acknowledge that the Chareidi Gedolim Natan despises and demeans are THE Gedolei Hador?
I would be delighted to be proven wrong.
I have not met any of the Haredi Gedolim, so I can't prove anything from direct conversations. However I have read published tshuvot from Gedolim like Rav Moshe, Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Melamed, Rav Mordechai Eliayahu, Rav Ovadia, Rav Shlomo Avineir, Rav Goren, and Rav David Lau, where they quote discussions that they had with experts in the field which helped them reach the conclusion in their Psak.
Many of these Gedolim reached conclusions that I disagree with (Based on the rulings of other rabbis), but it is possible to learn their tshuva and understand how they came to their conclusion based on all the required Halachic knowledge together with expert opinion. This was the normal way that rabbis worked in previous generation, and RZ and MO rabbis continue to work today.
I'm not sure who you define as "The Gedolei Hador", but please direct me to a published tshuva on a major life and death question, that effects the lives of thousands of people, (like whether Bochrim should serve in the army, or whether schools should be closed during a Pandemic) where they quote experts in the field whose opinion helped them come to their ruling.
"can you name the MO Gedolim?"
R' Slifkin has mentioned R' Melamed as someone he considers a true godol
I don't know what Rabbi Melamed thinks about Chareidi Gedolim or if he confers with them, but I do know he's on record calling for IDF soldiers to disobey orders if it came into conflict with their religious beliefs (which is just soooo different from Chareidi Gedolim telling their followers not to enlist since the IDF doesn't conform with THEIR religious beliefs). Wonder why Natan would consider him a true Gadol?
Irrelevant to the question of IDF service. I know this game: Cherry pick a psak or position that's controversial and you can negate the Gadol.
Actually not. Slifkin doesn't believe Chareidi Gedolim can be considered "Gedolim" because they tell their Talmidim not to enlist in the IDF, yet considers Rav Melamed a "Gadol" when he tells his Talmidim to disobey IDF orders. I'm not negating Rabbi Melamed; I'm just pointing out Slifkin's blatant hypocrisy.
Read the article again.
Rav Slifkin, did not fault the Gedolim for having an opinion that he disagrees with, that is the nature of Halacha. His point was that the Gedolim reached this conclusion without consulting experts in the field or any indication that they were even aware of all of the factors involved in their decision (i.e, factors that are not written in the Gemara).
I don't know the details of Rav Melamed's Psak about refusing orders, but if he made the Pask based only on political considerations, without consulting any experts, than you would have a valid point that Rav Slifkin's opinion is not consistent. However, I suspect that Rav Melamed consulted military and security experts before making his Psak (which is typical in his method of Psak), and based on their input came to the conclusion that there are specific orders which should be disobeyed, (BTW - that is also the policy of the army, soldiers are taught to identify and disobey an order with a "Black Flag" over it).
If you show me a Psak from a Gadol explaining why and when it is forbidden to join the IDF, and the psak includes expert opinion to back up the ruling (e.g., after consulting with the manpower division, he came to the conclusion that there is not currently a shortage of soldiers), then the Pask would be legitimate, and even though I personally would disagree with the conclusion.
If he made the Psak without showing that he has a full understanding of all the consequences of the ruling, than it shows that something in the system if broken.
I don't know what Rabbi Melamed thinks about Chareidi Gedolim or if he confers with them, but I do know he's on record calling for IDF soldiers to disobey orders if it came into conflict with their religious beliefs (which is just soooo different from Chareidi Gedolim telling their followers not to enlist since the IDF doesn't conform with THEIR religious beliefs). Wonder why Natan would consider him a true Gadol?
"Can you name one Gadol you ever met over the last 2 decades who you can prove "doesn't believe" it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling? "
This is unclear. First, it's insufficient to "believe it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling?" Belief aside, it's necessary to actually get the necessary information. It's all too simple to make assumptions, or to infer incorrectly from relevant information. I've seen a "psak" (not from a major posek) based on incorrect inference from a scientific fact. The fact was casually mentioned in a certain sefer (I think it was משך חכמה). It was weird that the author cited the sefer as a scientific authority, and it was weirder that the fact was extrapolated into utter nonsense. That author certainly believed "it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling". But so what?
Furthermore, when דעת תורה is presented as epistemologically touching upon prophecy, then you're no longer dealing with the necessity of getting relevant information. Prophecy and its lesser variants are not about getting information in a conventional manner.
Excerpt from Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer's "Haskamah" to Rabbi Mordechai Yaakov Bereish's book, Helkat Ya'akov, (1951), Tel Aviv, Orach Haim:
"I have to inform him that I cannot fulfill his request that my words about his book constitute consent, because his entire book is about questions and answers to Halacha. And I, it has been close to thirty years since I left Slutsk (where I passed laws for the community). I am far from matters of Halacha and teaching, and all my business is Only in yeshiva and my work is to say Hidushei Torah'".
Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer was the president of the Gedolei haTorah Council
Extraordinary. What exemplary humility from a man widely recognized as a true gadol b’torah.
Since that excerpt is obviously in translation, what is meant by “consent” in this context? Concurrence with R’ Bereish’s halachic positions?
Haskomah
Excellent piece, very well articulated. The only thing that's missing is addressing the Charedi claim that "Daas Torah" is supernatural. So rational argumentation against the idea that gedolim don't have expertise in hashkafic questions isn't fully relevant. While this topic has been thoroughly discussed in this blog and even more so in the comments, it still warrants at least a brief mention
It's not just military strategy and science.
Perhaps someone could point us to even a single teshuva or essay by Rav Landau, Rav Elyashiv, Rav Chaim Kanievsky, or Rav Shach that demonstrates even a basic understanding of the "metzius" behind ANY matter having to do with how to practically respond to changing technical or communal realities?
Does anyone know of ANYTHING written by ANY of them where their discussion of the underlying metzius (ANY nuanced metzius -- scientific, sociolological, technical, psychological, educational) is on a level of competency that would merit a passing grade on a secular high school 12th grade essay?
Does this come close:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50002&st=&pgnum=344 (7 pages)
Is Rav Lando a posek? Did RCK write תשובות in the conventional sense? (I mean beyond a cryptic one sentence response.)
You must be smarter than Dr. Daniel Clair of the Cleveland Clinic, who operated on Rav Elyashiv, and who was impressed with the medical questions Rav Elyashiv asked him.
https://soundcloud.com/shalom-america/dr-dan-clair-6-26-11
You must know the "Metzius" better than Rav Chaim Kanievsky. Wow, what's your last name? You must be a Gadol worthy of Natan's coveted endorsement!
I'm sure Shlomo does know metziyus better than Rav Chaim Kanievsky did. I doubt that Shlomo would have made a beracha levatala on an African "king." https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/guest-post-daas-torah-rav-chaim
He made a comparison with Rav Elyashiv and RCK. Rav Elyashiv was active in a formal position that required making decisions. RCK did not hold such a position.
Oh, what a genius! Someone lied to Rav Chaim and got him to make a Bracha which Halacha would have called for him to do had the information been correct. The same way MO Rabbanim are fooled into thinking Techeiles is real and whoever doesn't wear is mevatel a Mitzvah. Or the same way some MO rabbis permit women to reveal their hair and parts of their body which are supposed to be covered in direct opposition to OC 75 (Vehameivin Yovin). Maybe "Metzius" has different meanings for different people?
As for Metzius, there's a reason Rabbanim from all spectrums of Orthodoxy deferred to Rav Chaim Kanievsky and not Natan Slifkin for psak.
Wow, didn't know I'd be getting a cholent so early in the week
Most broad people would not have accepted the lie without some professional scepticism. Especially knowing how strictly rishonim and acharonim treat a brocho levatolo (with so many clever solutions out there to avoid cases when the halochoh is not clear - heard of the yeshivish minhag to make shehakol on a candy between kiddishu rabboh and that cup of coffee, due to all the sheilos how and when wine patturs shar mashkim)?
Why didn’t his Daas Torah tingle tell him that wasn’t a king standing in front of him? Clearly it failed him.
Do you know what Daas Torah is? If you did, you most probably would not have posted such a stupid comment. Actually, you would have. Someone who claims anyone admitted to an ICU has the status of a Goseis, that 99% of medical Shailos don't need a Posek, or that Jewish doctors know all the Halachos and don't need Rabbis is not someone with, shall we say, a high IQ...
Do you know what Daas Torah is?
"It is a form of "Ruach Hakodesh," as it were, which borders if only remotely on the periphery of prophecy" (Jewish Observer),
We all know what you “claim” it is. What it actually is, is something very different.
Google is nothing to do with it. The average non-charedi-Gadoll is savvy enough to realize that just because someone claims or is claimed to be an African king, it doesn't mean that he actually is one. And before staking anything on it - such as reciting Hashem's Name - he would know of ways to check it out.
You're mistaken. RCK epitomized תמיתות.
" אין לו שום ידיעה חיצונית; אין לו שום שייכות לעולם הגשמי ולכל ענייני העולם מסביב"
https://www.bhol.co.il/news/1096793
This has nothing to do with charedi and non-charedi. There are plenty of Charedi gedolim who know about the world, and can consult with experts when the need arises. (As a contrast, RCK's own father cited (disapprovingly!) Immanuel Kant.) The problem is that דעת תורה ideology confered authority to RCK in matters where he neither claimed authority nor in which he issue a psak in the conventional sense of the term.
Since you have such disdain for Chareidi opinions about Rav Chaim Kanievsky, you ought to read what a certain non-Chareidi wrote about him ()when he was in his low 40s and was not so well-known)...
https://x.com/onthemainline/status/1237901123601694721?lang=en
Thanks for the response.
I wasn't offering an opinion, but asking a question.
Given your great confidence, I suppose that you could easily point to SOMETHING written by any of them that meets the criteria I enquired about.
(I won't go so far as to ask for ONE thing by each of them, just ONE thing by ANY of them.)
Should be easy for you, given their many writings.
Please share.
Thanks!
Did you ever read Derech Emuna or Shekel Hakodesh by Rav Chaim Kanievsky? you can start there and get back to me (that is, if you make it past the first page...).
Yes, but only a little. Where in דרך אמונה do you see anything beyond genius and a complete mastery of the traditional halachic sources? Have you seen insights that indicate an impressive knowledge of contemporary application of such הלכות - beyond that which is already found in works like the חזון איש? Do you see there knowledge of מציאות as מציאות and not book knowledge?
Please cut and paste a specific page whose content meets the criteria I asked about.
Go ahead.
You lost the plot, so let me get you back on track.
Shlomo didn't bring up דרך אמונה, that was Yoni. Yoni was responding to Shlomo's challenge to find a source which displays "even a basic understanding of the "metzius" behind ANY matter having to do with how to practically respond to changing technical or communal realities". It would follow that Yoni was considering at least one passage in said volumes that meets the criteria mentioned by Shlomo.
You then suggest that in order for Yoni to cite a passage he needs an equivalent example from Shlomo. But if Yoni didn't know what Shlomo meant, why did he respond so confidentially with the example of דרך אמונה? Why would he initially cite that ספר if he wasn't "able to find a corresponding comparative example" without Shlomo's help?
Nice deflection.
Oh, I'm sure he can point to Rabbi David Stav's Teshuva about going to movies and looking away when an inappropriate image is shown, or Rabbi Yssoscher Katz' Teshuva permitting women to nurse in public in Shul...but I wouldn't be able to find something comparable in, say, Igros Moshe or Minchas Shlomo!
Right on cue, the standard Charedi insult "You must think you're smarter than X you egotistical fool!" In the real world being smart doesn't make you an expert. And expertise in one field doesn't give it in anything else.
I am, no false pride or modesty, pretty darned smart. But in anything from urban planning to diesel mechanics to knitting there are loads of people who know the field, and I don't. So my first reflex is to listen to them when they are talking about the things they are good at even if by some standard I was given a larger helping of brains. And people who I know are much smarter than I listen when we are dealing with areas in my competence.
.... and people who are geniuses at the top of their field can be wrong for any number of reasons. The really good ones recognize it since they have screwed the pooch more times than most others have even attempted
Are all American yungeliet and bachurim this rude? Can't help but wonder.
You sound like a man who embodies all the virtues from humility and compassion to empathy and live of truth
Gotta say, someone asking their doctor relevant medical questions is a pretty low bar for exhibiting impressive understanding. What are the relevant time stamps in the interview? Does he go into detail about the questions?
See mark 3:30 he asks - What are the chances of Success, What are the risks, What are the benefits etc. things that any other normal avg person will ask a doctor. However, if it is Reb Eliyashiv who asks these questions - he becomes brilliant in medical procedures.
He does say he has a "better understanding compare to other layman (Rov)"people .He gives no samples but wants to play along with the interviewer, who is leading him. He says nowhere he is an expert in the medical field
I remember meeting a Phd student in some esoteric field. I mentioned some of the concepts in that field, and the student was amazed that a layman would know such esoterica. I had to admit that my knowledge of the field could be summarized in one short paragraph- and that I had exhausted my "expertise" in less than ten seconds! I just got "lucky" that I was able toss out a few buzzwords that 99% of the population couldn't.
So often a little knowledge can impress the lonely experts who work in a field that is sparsely populated.
The great poskim were not experts in the sense of university professors. But they had the ability to grasp the essence of such topics, achieving enough understanding to issue a psak relating to that field. That minimal competence is indeed impressive, because it is rare among the laymen of the world. (In some cases the posek does achieve mastery in these fields- but that's very rare, especially among those without a formal education.)
Words like "nuance", "sociolological" and "competency" are not typically used coherently by someone with a low IQ of 60.
I’m going to try to present the missing piece to your understanding of this subject, which is the same for many academic types: There are two distinct approaches to Torah study. One is to be motivated primarily by an objective approach to knowledge based on the belief that this is a Torah value. Another is to be motivated to live the life our Creator has in mind for us to achieve a certain state of being, generally identified with connection /similarity to G-d. If you follow the latter view, leaders have a whole new consideration, which is the current state of the population and what will actually lead them towards that desired state and what might lead them away. It is a historical fact that the haskala decimated the Torah-committed community and the charedi predecessors therefore demonized it. The truth, they will argue, is only meaningful to the extent that you live it. If being formally correct about something leads you away from G-d, your life is a lie (as there is no truth other than G-d) and therefore the “correct” fact is wrong, even if it is not false. This is why charedim, and even more so American yeshivish, have a party line about things but when you get close to leading thinkers who trust you, you get a far more nuanced picture. They take full responsibility for the future of their entire community in everything they say and care about that far more than what is technically accurate. Their question to you is no doubt the following: If everyone followed your leadership, what would the Jewish people look like in fifty or a hundred years? [I am not charedi and am deeply disturbed with much of what we hear from them. But I am similarly disturbed about much of what I hear from you.]
"It is a historical fact that the haskala decimated the Torah-committed community"
It is no such thing.
Excellent comment.
So why are you not haredi?
(Neither am I.)
Perhaps on reason, as one of mine is, is because the haredi Rabbonim considered to be Gedolim have only one tool their tool box, which is, "We don't change."
While resistance to change is generally a good idea when it comes to Jewish continuity , it cannot be the only Jewish response to every communal challenge.
I think the battle to save Torah was already won by the charedim in Israel and yeshivish elsewhere. It was a fierce battle fought by a small and weak group who could not afford to let down the walls. But this is now a large and strong group who should be using their social strength to meet the challenges of the time, which require engagement with the modern world including the state of Israel with the chayn and chesed that reflects the derech haTorah instead of what comes across as obnoxiousness, which sickens me. I guess I am a hybrid, living in a yeshivish community outside of Israel but hashkafically identifying more with right wing YU. I trust the direction of an open-minded yeshivish community more than right wing YU - especially for educating children.
In ther battle to save Torah, they ended up corrupting it beyond recognition.
See my original comment. For their community, with all the givens they’ve accumulated and the limitations they have, it’s not so easy to say that so forcefully. The Torah is only meaningful as a guide to life and they never had an off-ramp that would have allowed them to make the changes you believe they should have (and that I wish they would have) without at least a high risk of crashing. I can mostly forgive that they have not tried enough. While I certainly agree they’ve (I don’t like this word, as there is really no simple “they”) corrupted parts of Torah to varying degrees, most of which relate to engaging with the modern world, it’s not beyond recognition. You look at them with ayin raah and see too much bad. Look with ayin tova more often. It will help your perspective endlessly.
You live in the US, right? Here in Israel, when there's a terrible war going on for a year and the charedi community is simply not involved and doesn't care, their Torah is corrupted beyond recognition.
Many of us in Israel are involved and we do care. You can be angry and hate us because we are not serving in the army, but please don't say we simply don't care. And please don't respond that not joining the army means we don't care, I know you are intelligent enough to see beyond that shallow false dichotomy.
We donate thousands of shekels to soldiers, we cook food for them every week, we daven and cry. Maybe it's not enough for you, but we care deeply.
Yes I do. From the outside, it's hard to argue with you. From the inside, they had a wall up already. It's not meaningless to say that aside from their engagement with the rest of the world, which they have blocked out and don't have any means of dealing with, their early 20th century Judaism is not corrupted. It's just very harmfully and sadly outdated. And I still maintain that they may not be wrong that their society would unravel and suffer immeasurably if they follow your guidance
But don't you think their disattachment from the outside world has only been made possible and sustainable thanks to the DL world, for instance the ideologically-motivated DL combat soldiers who are fighting on haredim's behalf?
Add to that the DL and MO physicians whom they run to, both in EY and the US and who are also the catalysts for halachicly-acceptable treatments for fertility issues, for instance?
In other words, haredism is a luxury belief and practice, only made possible by those who are not haredi, including Israeli and American taxpayers.
Right but visa versa. 50 years ago the dati world didn't have much of an עולם התורה, much of the התחזקות תורנית we see today in our communities came from datim taking certain aspects from the chareidim like building yeshivot and kollelim as well as a more insular community (which admittedly has its drawbacks). If there was no Torah example though we would not be in a good place. My Rosh Yeshiva Rav Sabato was mocked by his classmates when he told them he was doing Hesder and not full service. My Rosh Kollel Rav Elisha Aviner remembers a time when every dati who drafted would return without a kipa. While chareidim need to thank Israel for their material infrastructure we need to acknowledge the chareidi role in the spiritual infrastructure.
Swing and a big miss, sorry. In all your examples, those who benefit work with the others and provide their own benefit and express acknowledgement and appreciation. Charedim reject everyone else but accept the benefits while providing no benefit anyone else appreciates very much. But I don't understand how Shlomo's question affects my point. It's just one of the disturbing things about charedim that does not take away from what is great about them
I personally agree with what you wrote, but I don't think it will help the confused woman who asked you the question.
For people like her, I think it's also important to point out that our greatest sages didn't always agree with each other, and sometimes in very substantial ways. Everybody knows about the many disagreements between Hillel and Shammai, and I'm sure you could come up with dozens if not hundreds of additional examples.
Today, in the absence of a Sanhedrin or other equivalent body with the authority to make decisions binding on all Jews, everything is local. You follow the rabbi that your community chooses to follow. And if you disagree in some fundamental way that you can't reconcile, you may find yourself forced to move to a different community. Much like you yourself did on your own personal journey.
It is necessary to explain the source of halachic authority in the communities of Israel. It is given to the designated rabbi in the coronation letter. It is indicated there, what the rabbi's role will be and what the community authorizes him to do. In most communities there is a dayan and he deals with all the rulings of Halacha, including kosher. The rabbi of the community, who is not a judge, is not authorized by the community to rule on anything. It follows from this that a head of yeshiva who is not a dayan, was never authorized to rule on anything, and is not allowed to express himself in halachic rulings. But, in the ultra-orthodox public, all the "Torah greats" are yeshiva leaders who have never been authorized by any community to be judges. Therefore, the value of all the "rulings of the Torah greats" is 100% scholarly and 0% halachic. In contrast to them, the religious Zionist rabbis who ruled on military conscription were judges: Rabbis Herzog, Uziel, Nissim and Unterman, Israeli, Goren and others. Therefore, from the halachic point of view, only the rulings of these rabbis have halachic validity and authority
Keep in mind also that to serve or not to serve in the IDF is not a halachic "psak" in the normal sense of the word; the few relevant sources can be interpreted any way you want. Ultimately, it's a hashkafic judgment. The Chazon Ish famously said you can't serve because it was "written on his heart". (Of course, that was 75 years ago, and then only for 50 years!)
Dr Slifkin, you may enjoy this article.
https://yated.com/a-thought-about-daas-torah/ .
What is that woman's problem? If the rules are not clear, or if there are no rules, do what the Torah says (דברים ו':י"ח: וועשית הישר יהטוב) and follow your conscience. Or your gut feeling.
Many people reasonably assume that those people widely trumpeted as Torah giants are best qualified to tell you what the Torah says.
I would rather hear what the Torah says from someone who learned the Torah than from someone who didn't...but I can see why you're jealous people ask them for their Torah opinions and not you.
Y'know, Dati-Leumi gedolim have also learned the Torah. I know, you don't really acknowledge this.
..and plenty of OO, conservative, and reform rabbis did as well (the former more than the latter).
The difference is pretty simple: DL Gedolim believe in Zionism, so their entire Hashkafa has to fit with Zionism. All the Torah they learn has to fit with Zionism. If there is a contradiction between Zionism and Torah, Zionism will win.
The Chareidi Gedolim don't believe in Zionism, and spend their entire lives learning Torah. Hence, all their Hashkafa has to fit with the Torah.
The same is true with your Hashkafa as well. You attempt to reconcile Torah with Zionism and Science, among many other subjects, including IDF service, not vice versa.
That, I believe, is the reason your books were banned. You found many Gedolim who supported your views (as you find now among DL Rabbis), but the difference is they tried reconciling the Metzius with the Torah, not vice versa. Torah is not something you play around with and try to adapt to whatever way you wish...but "I know, you don't really acknowledge this."
The difference is pretty simple: haredi Gedolim believe in anti-Zionism, so their entire Hashkafa has to fit with anti-Zionism. All the Torah they learn has to fit with anti-Zionism. If there is a contradiction between anti-Zionism and Torah, anti-Zionism will win.
Same thing with your other example, the Slifkin ban. When there was a contradiction between Torah sources and haredi hashkofa, the Torah sources became irrelevant and haredi hashkofa won.
"Same thing with your other example, the Slifkin ban. When there was a contradiction between Torah sources and haredi hashkofa,"
Not quite. Haredi hashkafa was suddenly purged at that time. RNS did not break new ground or issue novelties, but distilled positions that had already achieved wide currency in the Charedi world, if not perhaps the more cloistered corners of Bnei Brak. There was no contradiction until the Great Purge.
Bingo.
You have no idea how the 'halachik process' works (or used to work) do you?
Look at the early poskim who discussed hetter iskah in its various forms- several write along the lines of "we need to find a way to allow this, because otherwise our people will be destitute". Much development in 'torah' took place to allow people to have easier lives.
You wouldn't know this, because chareidi halocho is now frozen, that is a very modern approach and not traditional.
chareidim have no biases? Just pure Torah? They need to fit Torah with the worldview they constructed for the past couple of hundred years (or 70 years if we're talking about bnei brak).
"™"?? That's a tad over the top, don't you think? Funny, but... what's the word?... snarky.
To elaborate, I'm reminded of Benjamin Franklin's admonition to John Adams in the musical play 1776 (and totally the words of librettist Peter Stone):
"These men, no matter how much we may disagree with them, are not ribbon clerks to be ordered about - they are proud, accomplished men, the cream of their colonies. And whether you like them or not, they and the people they represent will be part of this new nation that YOU hope to create."
In other words, argument is fine, but mockery is not.
>> She said that her gut feeling tells her that
>> everyone needs to serve in the army.
Was this an Ashkenazic woman?
Did she say "gut feeling", or "גָאט feeling"?
Genuinely curious here — could you list the non-chareidi Gedolim who fit your criteria? For what it’s worth, I think Rav Asher Weiss might be one of them (though he is definitely chareidi). I’d love to hear their views on army service and whether they believe one should leave yeshiva to join the army.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/who-really-believes-that-torah-protects
He asked for non-Chareidi Gedolim and you mention Rav Asher Weiss. Huh?
Thank you
R' Slifkin has mentioned R' Melamed as someone he considers a true godol
You touch on this a bit, but the concept of what counts as due diligence, for any rabbi making any decision needs to be fleshed out. Should gedolim need to have interviewed (a spectrum of) soldiers? What about rabbis making decisions for women without their input? (e.g. Herschel Schachter forbidding women's tefillah groups without speaking to any of the organizers)
Call me a heretic, but knowledge beats ignorance. Truth beats appeal to authority. Taking one's duties as a leader responsible for the well being of followers requires addressing the world as it is rather than as one wishes it were.
"You need a baseline level of knowledge to be worthy of the title of heretic"
I'm not sure about that. The Gemara says one who says "Mai Ahani Lan Rabana" is an Apikores, and that would make most people on this blog (from the top down) heretics. But I agree with you that he doesn't have a baseline level of knowledge...
Note that the Gemara also says that any talmid chacham who lacks daas is worse than a stinking carcass. Clearly not every talmid chacham is considered beneficial.
And just who are you to decide who has Daas? Just because they don't agree with your self-described "Rationalist Judaism" approach, that means they lack Daas?
No, you misunderstood my point. My point was that your claim that the Gemara's statement about rabbanan necessarily and automatically applies to charedi gedolim is false.
Intellectual and reputational competition among Torah scholars is nothing new. But if referring to the Gedolim with a ‘TM’ is really legit, now that is totally cynical.
I did that because having the title "Gadol" is not due to Torah wisdom, but rather it occurs when the powerbrokers in the charedi community decide that it is advantagous to crown certain people with that title. And those who are not chosen, no matter how greater their Torah wisdom, are not given that title.
Example: Rav Moshe Sternbuch and Rav Shmuel Auerbach. Marginalized due to politics and not due some lack in Torah knowledge- which is/was unparalleled.
Interesting to note that in the biography of Rav Shmuel Auerbach, it quotes Rav Dov Landau telling Rabbi Nosson Sherman's son that there was a weekly get-together of many Gedolei Roshei Yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel where they would discuss a wide range of Sugyos. Rav Dov said Rav Shmuel was head and shoulders above all of them, as there was not a topic mentioned where Rav Shmuel didn't possess an astonishing breadth of knowledge.
And look where he and his followers took that knowledge.
I can look no further than the current (secular) president of Israel, Isaac Herzog, who met with Rav Shmuel for over 2 hours and told his associates that while he doesn't agree with Rav Shmuel's position (since he comes from a different background and Hashkafa) he completely understands them and achieved a clarity with regard to that Hashkafa that he never heard anywhere else....
Isaac Herzog is secular?
Who cares what herzog says? His followers are violent thugs. Rav Friedman even told achim laneshek that were not a nation! Distortion of Torah at its finest.