There is basically not one halacha that there is not disagreement among the poskim.
I have a friend, that when his wife has a question in the home - he tell her it is good. He says there are those who hold it is permitted, and he holds like them. He does not know who exactly they are, but there are those that say it is okay.
And you know what he is right, he most probably can find several that are in his court.
So how do you definitively ascertain which posek has Hashem’s unmistaken imprimatur? Which one reflects His true halachic commandment, seeing that He hasn’t spoken directly to anybody since Moshe and a few Neveeim millennia ago?
When your books were banned, several decades ago, I reassessed my understanding of the meaning of "Daas Torah".
Until that time, I had thought that the "Gedolim" were not only experts in Torah, but had the wisdom and understanding to know that when confronted with a Halachic issue that involved specialized knowledge, they would have the humility to consult with experts in the field before making a ruling.
This was certainly true of Gedolim of pervious generations. people like the Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Moshe, or Rav Shlomo Zalman would regularly consult with doctors, scientists, engineers, lawyers, or other experts before making a Halachic ruling. This is also true for many modern Poskei Halacha in our generation. During Carona the (then) Chief Rabbi would regularly consult with doctors and experts from Ministry of Health before making rulings about issues related to the pandemic (For example, how should burial be handled by people who died from the disease without putting people handling the body at risk, how can someone in isolation or intensive care hear Parshat Zachor, how can minyanim be established without putting people at risk, etc). Rav Lau recently published a book of his Tshuvot from that period, and it is full of expert opinions on which his rulings are based.
However, when your books were banned I came to the realization that there are many people who are regarded as Haredi Gedolim who don't believe that it is necessary to get all the relevant information before making a ruling.
Today a common refrain I have heard from Haredi apologists is that there is no manpower shortage the army, and the IDF has enough soldiers without drafting Bochrim. I do not know if a single "Gadol" has spoken to experts from the army, the finance ministry, and psychologists, to determine how many soldiers the army currently has, how many they need to maintain the war, how many Miluimnikim are being called up for the second, third or forth time, and what the mental health and economic implications of that are etc.
Instead, as far as I can tell (and I would be happy to be proven wrong), they made a proclamation that "The Army has enough soldiers", without making any attempt to back up the claim with data, and because the "Gedolim" have spoken, and they have studied lots of Gemara, therefore it must be true.
End of discussion (At least for people who accept the Haredi understanding of "Daas Torah".
There’s a Russian proverb: "If you're so smart, why are you so poor?" If the Ultra-Orthodox leaders of past and present generations are so wise, why have they done nothing against discrimination, assimilation, pogroms, or the current threat of being drafted into the Israeli army, besides organizing mass prayers, reading Psalms, and printing angry pamphlets?
Can you name one Gadol you ever met over the last 2 decades who you can prove "doesn't believe" it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling? Understand that if one issues a ruling you disagree with based on the information you have, that person may have information from someone who you didn't consult with who thinks differently. Ever heard of a Machlokes Haposkim? Better yet, can you name the MO Gedolim? Even better, can you name any MO Gedolim who don't confer with the recognized Chareidi Gedolim or acknowledge that the Chareidi Gedolim Natan despises and demeans are THE Gedolei Hador?
I have not met any of the Haredi Gedolim, so I can't prove anything from direct conversations. However I have read published tshuvot from Gedolim like Rav Moshe, Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Melamed, Rav Mordechai Eliayahu, Rav Ovadia, Rav Shlomo Avineir, Rav Goren, and Rav David Lau, where they quote discussions that they had with experts in the field which helped them reach the conclusion in their Psak.
Many of these Gedolim reached conclusions that I disagree with (Based on the rulings of other rabbis), but it is possible to learn their tshuva and understand how they came to their conclusion based on all the required Halachic knowledge together with expert opinion. This was the normal way that rabbis worked in previous generation, and RZ and MO rabbis continue to work today.
I'm not sure who you define as "The Gedolei Hador", but please direct me to a published tshuva on a major life and death question, that effects the lives of thousands of people, (like whether Bochrim should serve in the army, or whether schools should be closed during a Pandemic) where they quote experts in the field whose opinion helped them come to their ruling.
I don't know what Rabbi Melamed thinks about Chareidi Gedolim or if he confers with them, but I do know he's on record calling for IDF soldiers to disobey orders if it came into conflict with their religious beliefs (which is just soooo different from Chareidi Gedolim telling their followers not to enlist since the IDF doesn't conform with THEIR religious beliefs). Wonder why Natan would consider him a true Gadol?
I don't know what Rabbi Melamed thinks about Chareidi Gedolim or if he confers with them, but I do know he's on record calling for IDF soldiers to disobey orders if it came into conflict with their religious beliefs (which is just soooo different from Chareidi Gedolim telling their followers not to enlist since the IDF doesn't conform with THEIR religious beliefs). Wonder why Natan would consider him a true Gadol?
"Can you name one Gadol you ever met over the last 2 decades who you can prove "doesn't believe" it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling? "
This is unclear. First, it's insufficient to "believe it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling?" Belief aside, it's necessary to actually get the necessary information. It's all too simple to make assumptions, or to infer incorrectly from relevant information. I've seen a "psak" (not from a major posek) based on incorrect inference from a scientific fact. The fact was casually mentioned in a certain sefer (I think it was משך חכמה). It was weird that the author cited the sefer as a scientific authority, and it was weirder that the fact was extrapolated into utter nonsense. That author certainly believed "it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling". But so what?
Furthermore, when דעת תורה is presented as epistemologically touching upon prophecy, then you're no longer dealing with the necessity of getting relevant information. Prophecy and its lesser variants are not about getting information in a conventional manner.
Excerpt from Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer's "Haskamah" to Rabbi Mordechai Yaakov Bereish's book, Helkat Ya'akov, (1951), Tel Aviv, Orach Haim:
"I have to inform him that I cannot fulfill his request that my words about his book constitute consent, because his entire book is about questions and answers to Halacha. And I, it has been close to thirty years since I left Slutsk (where I passed laws for the community). I am far from matters of Halacha and teaching, and all my business is Only in yeshiva and my work is to say Hidushei Torah'".
Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer was the president of the Gedolei haTorah Council
Excellent piece, very well articulated. The only thing that's missing is addressing the Charedi claim that "Daas Torah" is supernatural. So rational argumentation against the idea that gedolim don't have expertise in hashkafic questions isn't fully relevant. While this topic has been thoroughly discussed in this blog and even more so in the comments, it still warrants at least a brief mention
Perhaps someone could point us to even a single teshuva or essay by Rav Landau, Rav Elyashiv, Rav Chaim Kanievsky, or Rav Shach that demonstrates even a basic understanding of the "metzius" behind ANY matter having to do with how to practically respond to changing technical or communal realities?
Does anyone know of ANYTHING written by ANY of them where their discussion of the underlying metzius (ANY nuanced metzius -- scientific, sociolological, technical, psychological, educational) is on a level of competency that would merit a passing grade on a secular high school 12th grade essay?
You must be smarter than Dr. Daniel Clair of the Cleveland Clinic, who operated on Rav Elyashiv, and who was impressed with the medical questions Rav Elyashiv asked him.
He made a comparison with Rav Elyashiv and RCK. Rav Elyashiv was active in a formal position that required making decisions. RCK did not hold such a position.
Oh, what a genius! Someone lied to Rav Chaim and got him to make a Bracha which Halacha would have called for him to do had the information been correct. The same way MO Rabbanim are fooled into thinking Techeiles is real and whoever doesn't wear is mevatel a Mitzvah. Or the same way some MO rabbis permit women to reveal their hair and parts of their body which are supposed to be covered in direct opposition to OC 75 (Vehameivin Yovin). Maybe "Metzius" has different meanings for different people?
As for Metzius, there's a reason Rabbanim from all spectrums of Orthodoxy deferred to Rav Chaim Kanievsky and not Natan Slifkin for psak.
Most broad people would not have accepted the lie without some professional scepticism. Especially knowing how strictly rishonim and acharonim treat a brocho levatolo (with so many clever solutions out there to avoid cases when the halochoh is not clear - heard of the yeshivish minhag to make shehakol on a candy between kiddishu rabboh and that cup of coffee, due to all the sheilos how and when wine patturs shar mashkim)?
Google is nothing to do with it. The average non-charedi-Gadoll is savvy enough to realize that just because someone claims or is claimed to be an African king, it doesn't mean that he actually is one. And before staking anything on it - such as reciting Hashem's Name - he would know of ways to check it out.
Did you ever read Derech Emuna or Shekel Hakodesh by Rav Chaim Kanievsky? you can start there and get back to me (that is, if you make it past the first page...).
Yes, but only a little. Where in דרך אמונה do you see anything beyond genius and a complete mastery of the traditional halachic sources? Have you seen insights that indicate an impressive knowledge of contemporary application of such הלכות - beyond that which is already found in works like the חזון איש? Do you see there knowledge of מציאות as מציאות and not book knowledge?
Right on cue, the standard Charedi insult "You must think you're smarter than X you egotistical fool!" In the real world being smart doesn't make you an expert. And expertise in one field doesn't give it in anything else.
I am, no false pride or modesty, pretty darned smart. But in anything from urban planning to diesel mechanics to knitting there are loads of people who know the field, and I don't. So my first reflex is to listen to them when they are talking about the things they are good at even if by some standard I was given a larger helping of brains. And people who I know are much smarter than I listen when we are dealing with areas in my competence.
.... and people who are geniuses at the top of their field can be wrong for any number of reasons. The really good ones recognize it since they have screwed the pooch more times than most others have even attempted
Gotta say, someone asking their doctor relevant medical questions is a pretty low bar for exhibiting impressive understanding. What are the relevant time stamps in the interview? Does he go into detail about the questions?
See mark 3:30 he asks - What are the chances of Success, What are the risks, What are the benefits etc. things that any other normal avg person will ask a doctor. However, if it is Reb Eliyashiv who asks these questions - he becomes brilliant in medical procedures.
He does say he has a "better understanding compare to other layman (Rov)"people .He gives no samples but wants to play along with the interviewer, who is leading him. He says nowhere he is an expert in the medical field
I remember meeting a Phd student in some esoteric field. I mentioned some of the concepts in that field, and the student was amazed that a layman would know such esoterica. I had to admit that my knowledge of the field could be summarized in one short paragraph- and that I had exhausted my "expertise" in less than ten seconds! I just got "lucky" that I was able toss out a few buzzwords that 99% of the population couldn't.
So often a little knowledge can impress the lonely experts who work in a field that is sparsely populated.
The great poskim were not experts in the sense of university professors. But they had the ability to grasp the essence of such topics, achieving enough understanding to issue a psak relating to that field. That minimal competence is indeed impressive, because it is rare among the laymen of the world. (In some cases the posek does achieve mastery in these fields- but that's very rare, especially among those without a formal education.)
I’m going to try to present the missing piece to your understanding of this subject, which is the same for many academic types: There are two distinct approaches to Torah study. One is to be motivated primarily by an objective approach to knowledge based on the belief that this is a Torah value. Another is to be motivated to live the life our Creator has in mind for us to achieve a certain state of being, generally identified with connection /similarity to G-d. If you follow the latter view, leaders have a whole new consideration, which is the current state of the population and what will actually lead them towards that desired state and what might lead them away. It is a historical fact that the haskala decimated the Torah-committed community and the charedi predecessors therefore demonized it. The truth, they will argue, is only meaningful to the extent that you live it. If being formally correct about something leads you away from G-d, your life is a lie (as there is no truth other than G-d) and therefore the “correct” fact is wrong, even if it is not false. This is why charedim, and even more so American yeshivish, have a party line about things but when you get close to leading thinkers who trust you, you get a far more nuanced picture. They take full responsibility for the future of their entire community in everything they say and care about that far more than what is technically accurate. Their question to you is no doubt the following: If everyone followed your leadership, what would the Jewish people look like in fifty or a hundred years? [I am not charedi and am deeply disturbed with much of what we hear from them. But I am similarly disturbed about much of what I hear from you.]
Perhaps on reason, as one of mine is, is because the haredi Rabbonim considered to be Gedolim have only one tool their tool box, which is, "We don't change."
While resistance to change is generally a good idea when it comes to Jewish continuity , it cannot be the only Jewish response to every communal challenge.
I think the battle to save Torah was already won by the charedim in Israel and yeshivish elsewhere. It was a fierce battle fought by a small and weak group who could not afford to let down the walls. But this is now a large and strong group who should be using their social strength to meet the challenges of the time, which require engagement with the modern world including the state of Israel with the chayn and chesed that reflects the derech haTorah instead of what comes across as obnoxiousness, which sickens me. I guess I am a hybrid, living in a yeshivish community outside of Israel but hashkafically identifying more with right wing YU. I trust the direction of an open-minded yeshivish community more than right wing YU - especially for educating children.
See my original comment. For their community, with all the givens they’ve accumulated and the limitations they have, it’s not so easy to say that so forcefully. The Torah is only meaningful as a guide to life and they never had an off-ramp that would have allowed them to make the changes you believe they should have (and that I wish they would have) without at least a high risk of crashing. I can mostly forgive that they have not tried enough. While I certainly agree they’ve (I don’t like this word, as there is really no simple “they”) corrupted parts of Torah to varying degrees, most of which relate to engaging with the modern world, it’s not beyond recognition. You look at them with ayin raah and see too much bad. Look with ayin tova more often. It will help your perspective endlessly.
But don't you think their disattachment from the outside world has only been made possible and sustainable thanks to the DL world, for instance the ideologically-motivated DL combat soldiers who are fighting on haredim's behalf?
Add to that the DL and MO physicians whom they run to, both in EY and the US and who are also the catalysts for halachicly-acceptable treatments for fertility issues, for instance?
In other words, haredism is a luxury belief and practice, only made possible by those who are not haredi, including Israeli and American taxpayers.
Right but visa versa. 50 years ago the dati world didn't have much of an עולם התורה, much of the התחזקות תורנית we see today in our communities came from datim taking certain aspects from the chareidim like building yeshivot and kollelim as well as a more insular community (which admittedly has its drawbacks). If there was no Torah example though we would not be in a good place. My Rosh Yeshiva Rav Sabato was mocked by his classmates when he told them he was doing Hesder and not full service. My Rosh Kollel Rav Elisha Aviner remembers a time when every dati who drafted would return without a kipa. While chareidim need to thank Israel for their material infrastructure we need to acknowledge the chareidi role in the spiritual infrastructure.
I personally agree with what you wrote, but I don't think it will help the confused woman who asked you the question.
For people like her, I think it's also important to point out that our greatest sages didn't always agree with each other, and sometimes in very substantial ways. Everybody knows about the many disagreements between Hillel and Shammai, and I'm sure you could come up with dozens if not hundreds of additional examples.
Today, in the absence of a Sanhedrin or other equivalent body with the authority to make decisions binding on all Jews, everything is local. You follow the rabbi that your community chooses to follow. And if you disagree in some fundamental way that you can't reconcile, you may find yourself forced to move to a different community. Much like you yourself did on your own personal journey.
It is necessary to explain the source of halachic authority in the communities of Israel. It is given to the designated rabbi in the coronation letter. It is indicated there, what the rabbi's role will be and what the community authorizes him to do. In most communities there is a dayan and he deals with all the rulings of Halacha, including kosher. The rabbi of the community, who is not a judge, is not authorized by the community to rule on anything. It follows from this that a head of yeshiva who is not a dayan, was never authorized to rule on anything, and is not allowed to express himself in halachic rulings. But, in the ultra-orthodox public, all the "Torah greats" are yeshiva leaders who have never been authorized by any community to be judges. Therefore, the value of all the "rulings of the Torah greats" is 100% scholarly and 0% halachic. In contrast to them, the religious Zionist rabbis who ruled on military conscription were judges: Rabbis Herzog, Uziel, Nissim and Unterman, Israeli, Goren and others. Therefore, from the halachic point of view, only the rulings of these rabbis have halachic validity and authority
Keep in mind also that to serve or not to serve in the IDF is not a halachic "psak" in the normal sense of the word; the few relevant sources can be interpreted any way you want. Ultimately, it's a hashkafic judgment. The Chazon Ish famously said you can't serve because it was "written on his heart". (Of course, that was 75 years ago, and then only for 50 years!)
What is that woman's problem? If the rules are not clear, or if there are no rules, do what the Torah says (דברים ו':י"ח: וועשית הישר יהטוב) and follow your conscience. Or your gut feeling.
I would rather hear what the Torah says from someone who learned the Torah than from someone who didn't...but I can see why you're jealous people ask them for their Torah opinions and not you.
..and plenty of OO, conservative, and reform rabbis did as well (the former more than the latter).
The difference is pretty simple: DL Gedolim believe in Zionism, so their entire Hashkafa has to fit with Zionism. All the Torah they learn has to fit with Zionism. If there is a contradiction between Zionism and Torah, Zionism will win.
The Chareidi Gedolim don't believe in Zionism, and spend their entire lives learning Torah. Hence, all their Hashkafa has to fit with the Torah.
The same is true with your Hashkafa as well. You attempt to reconcile Torah with Zionism and Science, among many other subjects, including IDF service, not vice versa.
That, I believe, is the reason your books were banned. You found many Gedolim who supported your views (as you find now among DL Rabbis), but the difference is they tried reconciling the Metzius with the Torah, not vice versa. Torah is not something you play around with and try to adapt to whatever way you wish...but "I know, you don't really acknowledge this."
To elaborate, I'm reminded of Benjamin Franklin's admonition to John Adams in the musical play 1776 (and totally the words of librettist Peter Stone):
"These men, no matter how much we may disagree with them, are not ribbon clerks to be ordered about - they are proud, accomplished men, the cream of their colonies. And whether you like them or not, they and the people they represent will be part of this new nation that YOU hope to create."
In other words, argument is fine, but mockery is not.
Genuinely curious here — could you list the non-chareidi Gedolim who fit your criteria? For what it’s worth, I think Rav Asher Weiss might be one of them (though he is definitely chareidi). I’d love to hear their views on army service and whether they believe one should leave yeshiva to join the army.
You touch on this a bit, but the concept of what counts as due diligence, for any rabbi making any decision needs to be fleshed out. Should gedolim need to have interviewed (a spectrum of) soldiers? What about rabbis making decisions for women without their input? (e.g. Herschel Schachter forbidding women's tefillah groups without speaking to any of the organizers)
Call me a heretic, but knowledge beats ignorance. Truth beats appeal to authority. Taking one's duties as a leader responsible for the well being of followers requires addressing the world as it is rather than as one wishes it were.
"You need a baseline level of knowledge to be worthy of the title of heretic"
I'm not sure about that. The Gemara says one who says "Mai Ahani Lan Rabana" is an Apikores, and that would make most people on this blog (from the top down) heretics. But I agree with you that he doesn't have a baseline level of knowledge...
Note that the Gemara also says that any talmid chacham who lacks daas is worse than a stinking carcass. Clearly not every talmid chacham is considered beneficial.
Intellectual and reputational competition among Torah scholars is nothing new. But if referring to the Gedolim with a ‘TM’ is really legit, now that is totally cynical.
I did that because having the title "Gadol" is not due to Torah wisdom, but rather it occurs when the powerbrokers in the charedi community decide that it is advantagous to crown certain people with that title. And those who are not chosen, no matter how greater their Torah wisdom, are not given that title.
Example: Rav Moshe Sternbuch and Rav Shmuel Auerbach. Marginalized due to politics and not due some lack in Torah knowledge- which is/was unparalleled.
Interesting to note that in the biography of Rav Shmuel Auerbach, it quotes Rav Dov Landau telling Rabbi Nosson Sherman's son that there was a weekly get-together of many Gedolei Roshei Yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel where they would discuss a wide range of Sugyos. Rav Dov said Rav Shmuel was head and shoulders above all of them, as there was not a topic mentioned where Rav Shmuel didn't possess an astonishing breadth of knowledge.
"How can experts in Torah take diametrically opposed viewpoints on such a thing?"
Just wait until she hears about this thing called the Talmud...
Lol, good point
There is basically not one halacha that there is not disagreement among the poskim.
I have a friend, that when his wife has a question in the home - he tell her it is good. He says there are those who hold it is permitted, and he holds like them. He does not know who exactly they are, but there are those that say it is okay.
And you know what he is right, he most probably can find several that are in his court.
@Saul Katz
So how do you definitively ascertain which posek has Hashem’s unmistaken imprimatur? Which one reflects His true halachic commandment, seeing that He hasn’t spoken directly to anybody since Moshe and a few Neveeim millennia ago?
When your books were banned, several decades ago, I reassessed my understanding of the meaning of "Daas Torah".
Until that time, I had thought that the "Gedolim" were not only experts in Torah, but had the wisdom and understanding to know that when confronted with a Halachic issue that involved specialized knowledge, they would have the humility to consult with experts in the field before making a ruling.
This was certainly true of Gedolim of pervious generations. people like the Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Moshe, or Rav Shlomo Zalman would regularly consult with doctors, scientists, engineers, lawyers, or other experts before making a Halachic ruling. This is also true for many modern Poskei Halacha in our generation. During Carona the (then) Chief Rabbi would regularly consult with doctors and experts from Ministry of Health before making rulings about issues related to the pandemic (For example, how should burial be handled by people who died from the disease without putting people handling the body at risk, how can someone in isolation or intensive care hear Parshat Zachor, how can minyanim be established without putting people at risk, etc). Rav Lau recently published a book of his Tshuvot from that period, and it is full of expert opinions on which his rulings are based.
However, when your books were banned I came to the realization that there are many people who are regarded as Haredi Gedolim who don't believe that it is necessary to get all the relevant information before making a ruling.
Today a common refrain I have heard from Haredi apologists is that there is no manpower shortage the army, and the IDF has enough soldiers without drafting Bochrim. I do not know if a single "Gadol" has spoken to experts from the army, the finance ministry, and psychologists, to determine how many soldiers the army currently has, how many they need to maintain the war, how many Miluimnikim are being called up for the second, third or forth time, and what the mental health and economic implications of that are etc.
Instead, as far as I can tell (and I would be happy to be proven wrong), they made a proclamation that "The Army has enough soldiers", without making any attempt to back up the claim with data, and because the "Gedolim" have spoken, and they have studied lots of Gemara, therefore it must be true.
End of discussion (At least for people who accept the Haredi understanding of "Daas Torah".
There’s a Russian proverb: "If you're so smart, why are you so poor?" If the Ultra-Orthodox leaders of past and present generations are so wise, why have they done nothing against discrimination, assimilation, pogroms, or the current threat of being drafted into the Israeli army, besides organizing mass prayers, reading Psalms, and printing angry pamphlets?
The response is predictable: "imagine how much worse it would be *without* the leader's intelligence and our prayers!"
Can you name one Gadol you ever met over the last 2 decades who you can prove "doesn't believe" it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling? Understand that if one issues a ruling you disagree with based on the information you have, that person may have information from someone who you didn't consult with who thinks differently. Ever heard of a Machlokes Haposkim? Better yet, can you name the MO Gedolim? Even better, can you name any MO Gedolim who don't confer with the recognized Chareidi Gedolim or acknowledge that the Chareidi Gedolim Natan despises and demeans are THE Gedolei Hador?
I would be delighted to be proven wrong.
I have not met any of the Haredi Gedolim, so I can't prove anything from direct conversations. However I have read published tshuvot from Gedolim like Rav Moshe, Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Melamed, Rav Mordechai Eliayahu, Rav Ovadia, Rav Shlomo Avineir, Rav Goren, and Rav David Lau, where they quote discussions that they had with experts in the field which helped them reach the conclusion in their Psak.
Many of these Gedolim reached conclusions that I disagree with (Based on the rulings of other rabbis), but it is possible to learn their tshuva and understand how they came to their conclusion based on all the required Halachic knowledge together with expert opinion. This was the normal way that rabbis worked in previous generation, and RZ and MO rabbis continue to work today.
I'm not sure who you define as "The Gedolei Hador", but please direct me to a published tshuva on a major life and death question, that effects the lives of thousands of people, (like whether Bochrim should serve in the army, or whether schools should be closed during a Pandemic) where they quote experts in the field whose opinion helped them come to their ruling.
"can you name the MO Gedolim?"
R' Slifkin has mentioned R' Melamed as someone he considers a true godol
I don't know what Rabbi Melamed thinks about Chareidi Gedolim or if he confers with them, but I do know he's on record calling for IDF soldiers to disobey orders if it came into conflict with their religious beliefs (which is just soooo different from Chareidi Gedolim telling their followers not to enlist since the IDF doesn't conform with THEIR religious beliefs). Wonder why Natan would consider him a true Gadol?
Irrelevant to the question of IDF service. I know this game: Cherry pick a psak or position that's controversial and you can negate the Gadol.
I don't know what Rabbi Melamed thinks about Chareidi Gedolim or if he confers with them, but I do know he's on record calling for IDF soldiers to disobey orders if it came into conflict with their religious beliefs (which is just soooo different from Chareidi Gedolim telling their followers not to enlist since the IDF doesn't conform with THEIR religious beliefs). Wonder why Natan would consider him a true Gadol?
"Can you name one Gadol you ever met over the last 2 decades who you can prove "doesn't believe" it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling? "
This is unclear. First, it's insufficient to "believe it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling?" Belief aside, it's necessary to actually get the necessary information. It's all too simple to make assumptions, or to infer incorrectly from relevant information. I've seen a "psak" (not from a major posek) based on incorrect inference from a scientific fact. The fact was casually mentioned in a certain sefer (I think it was משך חכמה). It was weird that the author cited the sefer as a scientific authority, and it was weirder that the fact was extrapolated into utter nonsense. That author certainly believed "it's necessary to get all relevant information before issuing a ruling". But so what?
Furthermore, when דעת תורה is presented as epistemologically touching upon prophecy, then you're no longer dealing with the necessity of getting relevant information. Prophecy and its lesser variants are not about getting information in a conventional manner.
Excerpt from Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer's "Haskamah" to Rabbi Mordechai Yaakov Bereish's book, Helkat Ya'akov, (1951), Tel Aviv, Orach Haim:
"I have to inform him that I cannot fulfill his request that my words about his book constitute consent, because his entire book is about questions and answers to Halacha. And I, it has been close to thirty years since I left Slutsk (where I passed laws for the community). I am far from matters of Halacha and teaching, and all my business is Only in yeshiva and my work is to say Hidushei Torah'".
Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer was the president of the Gedolei haTorah Council
Extraordinary. What exemplary humility from a man widely recognized as a true gadol b’torah.
Since that excerpt is obviously in translation, what is meant by “consent” in this context? Concurrence with R’ Bereish’s halachic positions?
Haskomah
Excellent piece, very well articulated. The only thing that's missing is addressing the Charedi claim that "Daas Torah" is supernatural. So rational argumentation against the idea that gedolim don't have expertise in hashkafic questions isn't fully relevant. While this topic has been thoroughly discussed in this blog and even more so in the comments, it still warrants at least a brief mention
It's not just military strategy and science.
Perhaps someone could point us to even a single teshuva or essay by Rav Landau, Rav Elyashiv, Rav Chaim Kanievsky, or Rav Shach that demonstrates even a basic understanding of the "metzius" behind ANY matter having to do with how to practically respond to changing technical or communal realities?
Does anyone know of ANYTHING written by ANY of them where their discussion of the underlying metzius (ANY nuanced metzius -- scientific, sociolological, technical, psychological, educational) is on a level of competency that would merit a passing grade on a secular high school 12th grade essay?
Does this come close:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50002&st=&pgnum=344 (7 pages)
Is Rav Lando a posek? Did RCK write תשובות in the conventional sense? (I mean beyond a cryptic one sentence response.)
You must be smarter than Dr. Daniel Clair of the Cleveland Clinic, who operated on Rav Elyashiv, and who was impressed with the medical questions Rav Elyashiv asked him.
https://soundcloud.com/shalom-america/dr-dan-clair-6-26-11
You must know the "Metzius" better than Rav Chaim Kanievsky. Wow, what's your last name? You must be a Gadol worthy of Natan's coveted endorsement!
I'm sure Shlomo does know metziyus better than Rav Chaim Kanievsky did. I doubt that Shlomo would have made a beracha levatala on an African "king." https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/guest-post-daas-torah-rav-chaim
He made a comparison with Rav Elyashiv and RCK. Rav Elyashiv was active in a formal position that required making decisions. RCK did not hold such a position.
Oh, what a genius! Someone lied to Rav Chaim and got him to make a Bracha which Halacha would have called for him to do had the information been correct. The same way MO Rabbanim are fooled into thinking Techeiles is real and whoever doesn't wear is mevatel a Mitzvah. Or the same way some MO rabbis permit women to reveal their hair and parts of their body which are supposed to be covered in direct opposition to OC 75 (Vehameivin Yovin). Maybe "Metzius" has different meanings for different people?
As for Metzius, there's a reason Rabbanim from all spectrums of Orthodoxy deferred to Rav Chaim Kanievsky and not Natan Slifkin for psak.
Wow, didn't know I'd be getting a cholent so early in the week
Most broad people would not have accepted the lie without some professional scepticism. Especially knowing how strictly rishonim and acharonim treat a brocho levatolo (with so many clever solutions out there to avoid cases when the halochoh is not clear - heard of the yeshivish minhag to make shehakol on a candy between kiddishu rabboh and that cup of coffee, due to all the sheilos how and when wine patturs shar mashkim)?
Why didn’t his Daas Torah tingle tell him that wasn’t a king standing in front of him? Clearly it failed him.
Google is nothing to do with it. The average non-charedi-Gadoll is savvy enough to realize that just because someone claims or is claimed to be an African king, it doesn't mean that he actually is one. And before staking anything on it - such as reciting Hashem's Name - he would know of ways to check it out.
Thanks for the response.
I wasn't offering an opinion, but asking a question.
Given your great confidence, I suppose that you could easily point to SOMETHING written by any of them that meets the criteria I enquired about.
(I won't go so far as to ask for ONE thing by each of them, just ONE thing by ANY of them.)
Should be easy for you, given their many writings.
Please share.
Thanks!
Did you ever read Derech Emuna or Shekel Hakodesh by Rav Chaim Kanievsky? you can start there and get back to me (that is, if you make it past the first page...).
Yes, but only a little. Where in דרך אמונה do you see anything beyond genius and a complete mastery of the traditional halachic sources? Have you seen insights that indicate an impressive knowledge of contemporary application of such הלכות - beyond that which is already found in works like the חזון איש? Do you see there knowledge of מציאות as מציאות and not book knowledge?
Please cut and paste a specific page whose content meets the criteria I asked about.
Go ahead.
Right on cue, the standard Charedi insult "You must think you're smarter than X you egotistical fool!" In the real world being smart doesn't make you an expert. And expertise in one field doesn't give it in anything else.
I am, no false pride or modesty, pretty darned smart. But in anything from urban planning to diesel mechanics to knitting there are loads of people who know the field, and I don't. So my first reflex is to listen to them when they are talking about the things they are good at even if by some standard I was given a larger helping of brains. And people who I know are much smarter than I listen when we are dealing with areas in my competence.
.... and people who are geniuses at the top of their field can be wrong for any number of reasons. The really good ones recognize it since they have screwed the pooch more times than most others have even attempted
Gotta say, someone asking their doctor relevant medical questions is a pretty low bar for exhibiting impressive understanding. What are the relevant time stamps in the interview? Does he go into detail about the questions?
See mark 3:30 he asks - What are the chances of Success, What are the risks, What are the benefits etc. things that any other normal avg person will ask a doctor. However, if it is Reb Eliyashiv who asks these questions - he becomes brilliant in medical procedures.
He does say he has a "better understanding compare to other layman (Rov)"people .He gives no samples but wants to play along with the interviewer, who is leading him. He says nowhere he is an expert in the medical field
I remember meeting a Phd student in some esoteric field. I mentioned some of the concepts in that field, and the student was amazed that a layman would know such esoterica. I had to admit that my knowledge of the field could be summarized in one short paragraph- and that I had exhausted my "expertise" in less than ten seconds! I just got "lucky" that I was able toss out a few buzzwords that 99% of the population couldn't.
So often a little knowledge can impress the lonely experts who work in a field that is sparsely populated.
The great poskim were not experts in the sense of university professors. But they had the ability to grasp the essence of such topics, achieving enough understanding to issue a psak relating to that field. That minimal competence is indeed impressive, because it is rare among the laymen of the world. (In some cases the posek does achieve mastery in these fields- but that's very rare, especially among those without a formal education.)
Words like "nuance", "sociolological" and "competency" are not typically used coherently by someone with a low IQ of 60.
I’m going to try to present the missing piece to your understanding of this subject, which is the same for many academic types: There are two distinct approaches to Torah study. One is to be motivated primarily by an objective approach to knowledge based on the belief that this is a Torah value. Another is to be motivated to live the life our Creator has in mind for us to achieve a certain state of being, generally identified with connection /similarity to G-d. If you follow the latter view, leaders have a whole new consideration, which is the current state of the population and what will actually lead them towards that desired state and what might lead them away. It is a historical fact that the haskala decimated the Torah-committed community and the charedi predecessors therefore demonized it. The truth, they will argue, is only meaningful to the extent that you live it. If being formally correct about something leads you away from G-d, your life is a lie (as there is no truth other than G-d) and therefore the “correct” fact is wrong, even if it is not false. This is why charedim, and even more so American yeshivish, have a party line about things but when you get close to leading thinkers who trust you, you get a far more nuanced picture. They take full responsibility for the future of their entire community in everything they say and care about that far more than what is technically accurate. Their question to you is no doubt the following: If everyone followed your leadership, what would the Jewish people look like in fifty or a hundred years? [I am not charedi and am deeply disturbed with much of what we hear from them. But I am similarly disturbed about much of what I hear from you.]
"It is a historical fact that the haskala decimated the Torah-committed community"
It is no such thing.
Excellent comment.
So why are you not haredi?
(Neither am I.)
Perhaps on reason, as one of mine is, is because the haredi Rabbonim considered to be Gedolim have only one tool their tool box, which is, "We don't change."
While resistance to change is generally a good idea when it comes to Jewish continuity , it cannot be the only Jewish response to every communal challenge.
I think the battle to save Torah was already won by the charedim in Israel and yeshivish elsewhere. It was a fierce battle fought by a small and weak group who could not afford to let down the walls. But this is now a large and strong group who should be using their social strength to meet the challenges of the time, which require engagement with the modern world including the state of Israel with the chayn and chesed that reflects the derech haTorah instead of what comes across as obnoxiousness, which sickens me. I guess I am a hybrid, living in a yeshivish community outside of Israel but hashkafically identifying more with right wing YU. I trust the direction of an open-minded yeshivish community more than right wing YU - especially for educating children.
In ther battle to save Torah, they ended up corrupting it beyond recognition.
See my original comment. For their community, with all the givens they’ve accumulated and the limitations they have, it’s not so easy to say that so forcefully. The Torah is only meaningful as a guide to life and they never had an off-ramp that would have allowed them to make the changes you believe they should have (and that I wish they would have) without at least a high risk of crashing. I can mostly forgive that they have not tried enough. While I certainly agree they’ve (I don’t like this word, as there is really no simple “they”) corrupted parts of Torah to varying degrees, most of which relate to engaging with the modern world, it’s not beyond recognition. You look at them with ayin raah and see too much bad. Look with ayin tova more often. It will help your perspective endlessly.
But don't you think their disattachment from the outside world has only been made possible and sustainable thanks to the DL world, for instance the ideologically-motivated DL combat soldiers who are fighting on haredim's behalf?
Add to that the DL and MO physicians whom they run to, both in EY and the US and who are also the catalysts for halachicly-acceptable treatments for fertility issues, for instance?
In other words, haredism is a luxury belief and practice, only made possible by those who are not haredi, including Israeli and American taxpayers.
Right but visa versa. 50 years ago the dati world didn't have much of an עולם התורה, much of the התחזקות תורנית we see today in our communities came from datim taking certain aspects from the chareidim like building yeshivot and kollelim as well as a more insular community (which admittedly has its drawbacks). If there was no Torah example though we would not be in a good place. My Rosh Yeshiva Rav Sabato was mocked by his classmates when he told them he was doing Hesder and not full service. My Rosh Kollel Rav Elisha Aviner remembers a time when every dati who drafted would return without a kipa. While chareidim need to thank Israel for their material infrastructure we need to acknowledge the chareidi role in the spiritual infrastructure.
I personally agree with what you wrote, but I don't think it will help the confused woman who asked you the question.
For people like her, I think it's also important to point out that our greatest sages didn't always agree with each other, and sometimes in very substantial ways. Everybody knows about the many disagreements between Hillel and Shammai, and I'm sure you could come up with dozens if not hundreds of additional examples.
Today, in the absence of a Sanhedrin or other equivalent body with the authority to make decisions binding on all Jews, everything is local. You follow the rabbi that your community chooses to follow. And if you disagree in some fundamental way that you can't reconcile, you may find yourself forced to move to a different community. Much like you yourself did on your own personal journey.
It is necessary to explain the source of halachic authority in the communities of Israel. It is given to the designated rabbi in the coronation letter. It is indicated there, what the rabbi's role will be and what the community authorizes him to do. In most communities there is a dayan and he deals with all the rulings of Halacha, including kosher. The rabbi of the community, who is not a judge, is not authorized by the community to rule on anything. It follows from this that a head of yeshiva who is not a dayan, was never authorized to rule on anything, and is not allowed to express himself in halachic rulings. But, in the ultra-orthodox public, all the "Torah greats" are yeshiva leaders who have never been authorized by any community to be judges. Therefore, the value of all the "rulings of the Torah greats" is 100% scholarly and 0% halachic. In contrast to them, the religious Zionist rabbis who ruled on military conscription were judges: Rabbis Herzog, Uziel, Nissim and Unterman, Israeli, Goren and others. Therefore, from the halachic point of view, only the rulings of these rabbis have halachic validity and authority
Keep in mind also that to serve or not to serve in the IDF is not a halachic "psak" in the normal sense of the word; the few relevant sources can be interpreted any way you want. Ultimately, it's a hashkafic judgment. The Chazon Ish famously said you can't serve because it was "written on his heart". (Of course, that was 75 years ago, and then only for 50 years!)
Dr Slifkin, you may enjoy this article.
https://yated.com/a-thought-about-daas-torah/ .
What is that woman's problem? If the rules are not clear, or if there are no rules, do what the Torah says (דברים ו':י"ח: וועשית הישר יהטוב) and follow your conscience. Or your gut feeling.
Many people reasonably assume that those people widely trumpeted as Torah giants are best qualified to tell you what the Torah says.
I would rather hear what the Torah says from someone who learned the Torah than from someone who didn't...but I can see why you're jealous people ask them for their Torah opinions and not you.
Y'know, Dati-Leumi gedolim have also learned the Torah. I know, you don't really acknowledge this.
..and plenty of OO, conservative, and reform rabbis did as well (the former more than the latter).
The difference is pretty simple: DL Gedolim believe in Zionism, so their entire Hashkafa has to fit with Zionism. All the Torah they learn has to fit with Zionism. If there is a contradiction between Zionism and Torah, Zionism will win.
The Chareidi Gedolim don't believe in Zionism, and spend their entire lives learning Torah. Hence, all their Hashkafa has to fit with the Torah.
The same is true with your Hashkafa as well. You attempt to reconcile Torah with Zionism and Science, among many other subjects, including IDF service, not vice versa.
That, I believe, is the reason your books were banned. You found many Gedolim who supported your views (as you find now among DL Rabbis), but the difference is they tried reconciling the Metzius with the Torah, not vice versa. Torah is not something you play around with and try to adapt to whatever way you wish...but "I know, you don't really acknowledge this."
"™"?? That's a tad over the top, don't you think? Funny, but... what's the word?... snarky.
To elaborate, I'm reminded of Benjamin Franklin's admonition to John Adams in the musical play 1776 (and totally the words of librettist Peter Stone):
"These men, no matter how much we may disagree with them, are not ribbon clerks to be ordered about - they are proud, accomplished men, the cream of their colonies. And whether you like them or not, they and the people they represent will be part of this new nation that YOU hope to create."
In other words, argument is fine, but mockery is not.
>> She said that her gut feeling tells her that
>> everyone needs to serve in the army.
Was this an Ashkenazic woman?
Did she say "gut feeling", or "גָאט feeling"?
Genuinely curious here — could you list the non-chareidi Gedolim who fit your criteria? For what it’s worth, I think Rav Asher Weiss might be one of them (though he is definitely chareidi). I’d love to hear their views on army service and whether they believe one should leave yeshiva to join the army.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/who-really-believes-that-torah-protects
He asked for non-Chareidi Gedolim and you mention Rav Asher Weiss. Huh?
Thank you
R' Slifkin has mentioned R' Melamed as someone he considers a true godol
You touch on this a bit, but the concept of what counts as due diligence, for any rabbi making any decision needs to be fleshed out. Should gedolim need to have interviewed (a spectrum of) soldiers? What about rabbis making decisions for women without their input? (e.g. Herschel Schachter forbidding women's tefillah groups without speaking to any of the organizers)
Call me a heretic, but knowledge beats ignorance. Truth beats appeal to authority. Taking one's duties as a leader responsible for the well being of followers requires addressing the world as it is rather than as one wishes it were.
"You need a baseline level of knowledge to be worthy of the title of heretic"
I'm not sure about that. The Gemara says one who says "Mai Ahani Lan Rabana" is an Apikores, and that would make most people on this blog (from the top down) heretics. But I agree with you that he doesn't have a baseline level of knowledge...
Note that the Gemara also says that any talmid chacham who lacks daas is worse than a stinking carcass. Clearly not every talmid chacham is considered beneficial.
Intellectual and reputational competition among Torah scholars is nothing new. But if referring to the Gedolim with a ‘TM’ is really legit, now that is totally cynical.
I did that because having the title "Gadol" is not due to Torah wisdom, but rather it occurs when the powerbrokers in the charedi community decide that it is advantagous to crown certain people with that title. And those who are not chosen, no matter how greater their Torah wisdom, are not given that title.
Example: Rav Moshe Sternbuch and Rav Shmuel Auerbach. Marginalized due to politics and not due some lack in Torah knowledge- which is/was unparalleled.
Interesting to note that in the biography of Rav Shmuel Auerbach, it quotes Rav Dov Landau telling Rabbi Nosson Sherman's son that there was a weekly get-together of many Gedolei Roshei Yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel where they would discuss a wide range of Sugyos. Rav Dov said Rav Shmuel was head and shoulders above all of them, as there was not a topic mentioned where Rav Shmuel didn't possess an astonishing breadth of knowledge.
And look where he and his followers took that knowledge.