Reminds me of a story Berel wein says over, someone asked Reb Yaakov Kamenetsky, if you discourage people from going to college, where will we have any Jewish doctors from?
He responded, from the people that don't ask me!
If an individual DL will ask a chareidi rov if they should stay in learning, the answer is yes. If magically all DL's will become Chareidi overnight, we'll worry about it then.
The difference between the charedi and DL isn't just serving in the army. I say that Slifkin should make his own decisions, leave the charedim alone and focus on the problems of his own community, which are not insignificant.
English-speaking charedi spokesmen sometimes speak of how great hesder and other dati leumi yeshiva students are, but there's almost always a whiff of condescension and box-ticking when they say it. So not-so-deep-down, the answer from them is no.
I doubt it even registers to Israeli charedim. Anything that's not "unzerer" doesn't even register, let alone rate. Why do you think Artscroll just published a book about Hatzala's efforts on Shmini Atzeret but would never do so for Magen David Adom- or the Police, or the IDF? Because Hatzala is viewed (incorrectly) as "unzerer."
I asked my Rav about the chareidi lack of service in the IDF and he admits that it is a difficult issue. On the one hand, we cannot send our young men away from yeshiva to the IDF. On the other hand, it's not fair for those who are serving. But fairness has to take a back seat to the spiritual future of the Torah world. I did not yet have opportunity to ask if dati-leumi (National Religious) yeshiva students should also not serve in the IDF, but based on our philosophy, I believe the answer would be that they should become chareidi and learn in a chareidi yeshiva. We do not believe in the approach of the dati-leumi community, and chareidi yeshivos entusiastically take dati-leumi students who want to "convert".
Lets honest about this, the majority of Charedim don't believe the Torah learning of the Dati-Leumi world is on par with the "true" learning of the Charedim - hence it doesn't offer protection.
If Chareidi rabbis valued non Chareidi Torah learning as much as they value Chareidi Torah learning, wouldn't they be fighting for ALL those who are learning Torah not to be drafted?
What makes Chareidi learning special? I'd really love for a Rabbi to answer that.
I did ask this very question to two Charedi rabbi's last night, and the response was that nobody's Torah is worth more or less then anyone else, and if they want to learn instead of serving then they should do so. When I asked about the lack of men serving and how the army will not be sustainable, the answer: "if it was a true Torah state, and everyone would be learning, then we wouldn't need an army at all"
My feelings are, that it is impossible to debate honestly with people that live in dreamland.
On a side note, I do enjoy your posts, however I was offended by your alien post, I don't think it is respectful, dignified or correct to vilify other Jews, using language like that is derogatory. Have an academic/theological debate by all means but keep it civil.
Rabbi Slifkin, on his way out of Egypt: You think a band of freed slaves is going to get the Torah and then conquer the land! You live in a dream world. Why do you think G-d will take care of you for 40 years in the desert?
It's a scary though to have. If the majority of Orthodox rabbi are taking a position that is so obviously immoral, wrong, and against God's will in my eyes, what does it say about the state of Orthodox judism today?
"The first prime minister, David Ben Gurion, asked the Chazon Ish in a famous encounter, as follows: "Let us speak theoretically that it is decided that the Chazon Ish become Prime Minister. What would you promulgate? Would you give gemoras to all soldiers or would you provide them with sophisticated weaponry?"
The Chazon Ish replied by way of a parable which should serve as a road mark for us, a spotlight on the situation in which we find ourselves.
There was once a Jew who, in the bitter east European winters, felt his fingers about to become frostbitten. What did he do? Exactly what people there do in such a situation: he took some snow and rubbed it on his fingers. The warmth created by rubbing the water helped to thaw out his fingers. He was surprised at the efficacy of this act and announced very movingly, "Hashem, Creator of the world, thank You for having created the winter and the snow, for without them, how would I have been able to warm my limbs?"
And the Chazon Ish explained, "You established a state through the disillusion that it would protect you, but as a result, you are precisely in need of those arms to defend yourselves. We rebuff this disillusion. According to our beliefs, we have no need for weapons; we suffice with gemoras alone."
I don’t think I know anyone like this! I have asked several people I thought were Haredi and haven’t found anyone who says it is not important to serve. Does this mean they are not actually Haredi? How are you defining “Haredi?” Is it by certain groups? I have an Israeli daughter who served in the IDF in a certain capacity training soldiers (I don’t feel comfortable saying what it is for security reasons). She sent me a pic of an entire battalion of Haredi soldiers she trained (which I also won’t post for security reasons). I think it’s important to have a definition of “Haredi” or your answers won’t be accurate.
How about the DL follow the psak of their rabbis (it's milchemes mitzvah and they are obligated to serve) and the charedim follow he psak of theirs (it's not). This is like asking for a survey of Askenazi rabbis asking if kitniyot are assur on Pesach then why can sefardim eat them.
I don't know what Charedi would say to non-charedim, but I think I know what they would say to each other, were they to discuss it. I don't think that they place any value on the Torah learned and produced by non-haredim. And I think they would say that it's the Tzionim's war, not ours. So, yes the tzionim do have to fight in a war that they are responsible for.
I don’t think the barometer of whether a Haredi Rav respects the DL yeshiva world is based on whether or not they feel that the DL world should served in the army. I think the barometer should be if they would quote DL Rabbonim in their Shiurim or Piskei Halacha. Does a Haredi Rav white Rav Rimon for a Psak, or any other DL rav in other context?
I think that would show that they really respect the DL yeshiva world. Not the occasional article of someone DL that says the DL world doesn’t want Haredim in the army. That’s just disingenuous.
Let's start with this journalistic scoop: The IDF reportedly reduced its reservist numbers by hundreds of thousands to secure extra funds from the Ministry of Finance.
Reminds me of a story Berel wein says over, someone asked Reb Yaakov Kamenetsky, if you discourage people from going to college, where will we have any Jewish doctors from?
He responded, from the people that don't ask me!
If an individual DL will ask a chareidi rov if they should stay in learning, the answer is yes. If magically all DL's will become Chareidi overnight, we'll worry about it then.
The difference between the charedi and DL isn't just serving in the army. I say that Slifkin should make his own decisions, leave the charedim alone and focus on the problems of his own community, which are not insignificant.
English-speaking charedi spokesmen sometimes speak of how great hesder and other dati leumi yeshiva students are, but there's almost always a whiff of condescension and box-ticking when they say it. So not-so-deep-down, the answer from them is no.
I doubt it even registers to Israeli charedim. Anything that's not "unzerer" doesn't even register, let alone rate. Why do you think Artscroll just published a book about Hatzala's efforts on Shmini Atzeret but would never do so for Magen David Adom- or the Police, or the IDF? Because Hatzala is viewed (incorrectly) as "unzerer."
I asked my Rav about the chareidi lack of service in the IDF and he admits that it is a difficult issue. On the one hand, we cannot send our young men away from yeshiva to the IDF. On the other hand, it's not fair for those who are serving. But fairness has to take a back seat to the spiritual future of the Torah world. I did not yet have opportunity to ask if dati-leumi (National Religious) yeshiva students should also not serve in the IDF, but based on our philosophy, I believe the answer would be that they should become chareidi and learn in a chareidi yeshiva. We do not believe in the approach of the dati-leumi community, and chareidi yeshivos entusiastically take dati-leumi students who want to "convert".
Lets honest about this, the majority of Charedim don't believe the Torah learning of the Dati-Leumi world is on par with the "true" learning of the Charedim - hence it doesn't offer protection.
The answer is very simple. Hareidim will make every excuse and lie not to serve in the army because they are cowards and because they are selfish.
If Chareidi rabbis valued non Chareidi Torah learning as much as they value Chareidi Torah learning, wouldn't they be fighting for ALL those who are learning Torah not to be drafted?
What makes Chareidi learning special? I'd really love for a Rabbi to answer that.
I did ask this very question to two Charedi rabbi's last night, and the response was that nobody's Torah is worth more or less then anyone else, and if they want to learn instead of serving then they should do so. When I asked about the lack of men serving and how the army will not be sustainable, the answer: "if it was a true Torah state, and everyone would be learning, then we wouldn't need an army at all"
My feelings are, that it is impossible to debate honestly with people that live in dreamland.
On a side note, I do enjoy your posts, however I was offended by your alien post, I don't think it is respectful, dignified or correct to vilify other Jews, using language like that is derogatory. Have an academic/theological debate by all means but keep it civil.
Thanks and happy Pesach.
Rabbi Slifkin, on his way out of Egypt: You think a band of freed slaves is going to get the Torah and then conquer the land! You live in a dream world. Why do you think G-d will take care of you for 40 years in the desert?
It's a scary though to have. If the majority of Orthodox rabbi are taking a position that is so obviously immoral, wrong, and against God's will in my eyes, what does it say about the state of Orthodox judism today?
I think they would say something like this:
https://www.chareidi.org/archives5778/acharei/achaznishach78.htm
"The first prime minister, David Ben Gurion, asked the Chazon Ish in a famous encounter, as follows: "Let us speak theoretically that it is decided that the Chazon Ish become Prime Minister. What would you promulgate? Would you give gemoras to all soldiers or would you provide them with sophisticated weaponry?"
The Chazon Ish replied by way of a parable which should serve as a road mark for us, a spotlight on the situation in which we find ourselves.
There was once a Jew who, in the bitter east European winters, felt his fingers about to become frostbitten. What did he do? Exactly what people there do in such a situation: he took some snow and rubbed it on his fingers. The warmth created by rubbing the water helped to thaw out his fingers. He was surprised at the efficacy of this act and announced very movingly, "Hashem, Creator of the world, thank You for having created the winter and the snow, for without them, how would I have been able to warm my limbs?"
And the Chazon Ish explained, "You established a state through the disillusion that it would protect you, but as a result, you are precisely in need of those arms to defend yourselves. We rebuff this disillusion. According to our beliefs, we have no need for weapons; we suffice with gemoras alone."
I don’t think I know anyone like this! I have asked several people I thought were Haredi and haven’t found anyone who says it is not important to serve. Does this mean they are not actually Haredi? How are you defining “Haredi?” Is it by certain groups? I have an Israeli daughter who served in the IDF in a certain capacity training soldiers (I don’t feel comfortable saying what it is for security reasons). She sent me a pic of an entire battalion of Haredi soldiers she trained (which I also won’t post for security reasons). I think it’s important to have a definition of “Haredi” or your answers won’t be accurate.
How about the DL follow the psak of their rabbis (it's milchemes mitzvah and they are obligated to serve) and the charedim follow he psak of theirs (it's not). This is like asking for a survey of Askenazi rabbis asking if kitniyot are assur on Pesach then why can sefardim eat them.
I don't know what Charedi would say to non-charedim, but I think I know what they would say to each other, were they to discuss it. I don't think that they place any value on the Torah learned and produced by non-haredim. And I think they would say that it's the Tzionim's war, not ours. So, yes the tzionim do have to fight in a war that they are responsible for.
I don’t think the barometer of whether a Haredi Rav respects the DL yeshiva world is based on whether or not they feel that the DL world should served in the army. I think the barometer should be if they would quote DL Rabbonim in their Shiurim or Piskei Halacha. Does a Haredi Rav white Rav Rimon for a Psak, or any other DL rav in other context?
I think that would show that they really respect the DL yeshiva world. Not the occasional article of someone DL that says the DL world doesn’t want Haredim in the army. That’s just disingenuous.
Let's start with this journalistic scoop: The IDF reportedly reduced its reservist numbers by hundreds of thousands to secure extra funds from the Ministry of Finance.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/635184?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share