The difference between the charedi and DL isn't just serving in the army. I say that Slifkin should make his own decisions, leave the charedim alone and focus on the problems of his own community, which are not insignificant.
His taxes pay for their lifestyle and his children are risking their lives to protect them, so he is talking about problems affecting 'his own community'
That is their choice, he had made his own. He has not suggested anything practical, nor does he have the ability to change anything. The Doctor should be healing himself first. Currently he is a muck slinging blogger with obvious personal issues.
Millions of others don't write hundreds and thousands of blog posts about chareidi society and have a blog dedicated to attacking them on a daily basis. It's your personal problems. You're psycho. Get help man.
I'd argue that someone that belongs to the weird opressive Hareidi society, that is led by charletans masquerading as rabbis and religious leaders who keep their followers poor and uneducated, entirely for their own material and power-hungry obsessions, have far greater personal problems than anyone in the DL community. Cult much?
Perhaps you should see the recent photos of what the house of R. Dov Landau looks like from the inside. That is much nicer than the hovels of R Steinman and R Eliashiv. I don't need to tell you how Slifkin and his relatives live.
English-speaking charedi spokesmen sometimes speak of how great hesder and other dati leumi yeshiva students are, but there's almost always a whiff of condescension and box-ticking when they say it. So not-so-deep-down, the answer from them is no.
I doubt it even registers to Israeli charedim. Anything that's not "unzerer" doesn't even register, let alone rate. Why do you think Artscroll just published a book about Hatzala's efforts on Shmini Atzeret but would never do so for Magen David Adom- or the Police, or the IDF? Because Hatzala is viewed (incorrectly) as "unzerer."
I get the sense that you have a bit of an inferiority complex, which explains why it is so hard for you to give credit to the positive aspects of chareidi society and why you feel the need to constantly lower their stature.
I know there are other reasonable justifications for why you do what you do, but my money's on IC.
I hope whatever it is doesn't stop you from leading a fully, happy life
Lets honest about this, the majority of Charedim don't believe the Torah learning of the Dati-Leumi world is on par with the "true" learning of the Charedim - hence it doesn't offer protection.
I asked my Rav about the chareidi lack of service in the IDF and he admits that it is a difficult issue. On the one hand, we cannot send our young men away from yeshiva to the IDF. On the other hand, it's not fair for those who are serving. But fairness has to take a back seat to the spiritual future of the Torah world. I did not yet have opportunity to ask if dati-leumi (National Religious) yeshiva students should also not serve in the IDF, but based on our philosophy, I believe the answer would be that they should become chareidi and learn in a chareidi yeshiva. We do not believe in the approach of the dati-leumi community, and chareidi yeshivos entusiastically take dati-leumi students who want to "convert".
I want to add that your question can equally be asked about chilonim (secular). Does he also believe that chilonim (secular) boys should also not serve in the IDF, and should instead become religious and go to learn in yeshiva? This is an even stronger theoretical question, since it would involve reducing the size of the army even more.
This comment is just an insult for the sake of insult and contributes nothing to the discussion. This disgusting comment doesn't deserve a reply. Nevertheless, these are not the reasons why chareidim don't serve. But I digress.
Rabbi Slifkin, on his way out of Egypt: You think a band of freed slaves is going to get the Torah and then conquer the land! You live in a dream world. Why do you think G-d will take care of you for 40 years in the desert?
"Why do you think G-d will take care of you for 40 years in the desert?"
Nonsense. The גזירה to remain in the desert for 40 years had not yet been decreed.
Furthermore, the miracles of the desert were due to the מרגלים and their followers who refused to enter the land and live a normal life. Hence the miracles were only a contingency outside of the general scheme of creation בין השמשות. (I think I'm referring to יעקב עמדין here)
40 years expired in 1988. Time to get a job and weapon.
If Chareidi rabbis valued non Chareidi Torah learning as much as they value Chareidi Torah learning, wouldn't they be fighting for ALL those who are learning Torah not to be drafted?
What makes Chareidi learning special? I'd really love for a Rabbi to answer that.
I did ask this very question to two Charedi rabbi's last night, and the response was that nobody's Torah is worth more or less then anyone else, and if they want to learn instead of serving then they should do so. When I asked about the lack of men serving and how the army will not be sustainable, the answer: "if it was a true Torah state, and everyone would be learning, then we wouldn't need an army at all"
My feelings are, that it is impossible to debate honestly with people that live in dreamland.
On a side note, I do enjoy your posts, however I was offended by your alien post, I don't think it is respectful, dignified or correct to vilify other Jews, using language like that is derogatory. Have an academic/theological debate by all means but keep it civil.
Such an absurd response. First of all, if it was a true Torah state, we will still need an army - or does he think that Am Yisrael in Biblical times was not a Torah state? Second, what if we're only 3/4 or 1/2 a Torah state? Do we need only 3/4 or 1/2 size army?
Regarding the alien analogy, I didn't think that it was derogatory at all - aliens are not necessarily superior or inferior, they just live in a different world.
There is nothing derogatory about comparing Natan Slifkin to a rat and pig. Because there are many nice rats and pigs in fiction. And Natan Slifkin is very close to a rat and pig personality, which as a zoologist, I'm sure he knows intimately well.
"Aliens are not necessarily superior or inferior" The ones you met, I guess?
Either way, your analogy makes charedim non-human (the "other"/ "those people") which is grotesque. It's also exactly the way antisemites talk. Not calling you an antisemite - just saying. You're quick to point out how certain statements by R Yaron & Mizrachi are picked up by antisemites, well how is this different? Just because its targeted exclusively at charedim doesn't make it ok. Yaron & Mizrachi were also only attacking a specific group - the irreligious.
Irrelevant. We have a state and we need to defend it.
Better yet, we have a society and civilization here, and we need to defend it. Note that we had an army before we entered the land, and before we had a king.
"Irrelevant. We have a state and we need to defend it."
It's not irrelevant. If you believe that the state is a holy entity with intrinsic value, it makes sense to make certain sacrifices in defending it that you wouldn't make if you see it as an after the fact thing which is a headache and a source of a large amount of misery. (This isn't so much an ideological point as a behavioral-economic one. You would probably put more on the line to prevent someone from evicting you from your home than you would if someone tried to steal your seat on a bus.)
"Better yet, we have a society and civilization here, and we need to defend it."
You'll need to spell out who the 'we' in that sentence is referring to. Both of them.
"Note that we had an army before we entered the land, and before we had a king."
True. And before all *that* we got the Torah in the wilderness.
"it makes sense to make certain sacrifices in defending it"
Defending what? The State? Are you so isolated to believe it's only the State that's in peril? People are in captivity. > tens of thousands are evacuated from their homes. Thousands of soldiers are in harm's way, and many more are separated from their families. The economy is under threat. And you're talking about defending the State? This is about defending כלל ישראל.
"You'll need to spell out who the 'we' in that sentence is referring to. "
I'm talking about us.
הפורש מדרכי צבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללן ולא נכנס בצרתן ולא מתענה בתעניתן אלא הולך בדרכו כאחד מגויי הארץ וכאילו אינו מהן אין לו חלק לעולם הבא.
"And before all *that* we got the Torah in the wilderness. "
You've lost the plot. We're not about sacred chronology. We're talking about the need to defend Jewish lives.
You're responding to a bunch of comments which I never made. I *don't* believe 'it's only the State that's in peril' or deny that 'People are in captivity' or 'tens of thousands are evacuated from their homes.' Quite the opposite.
None of this has the slightest to do with my actual argument, which is that one's value judgement *regarding the state as an entity* also plays a role in how much one is willing to sacrifice for it. That shouldn't come as any sort of a shock to anyone. One way to isolate the 2 is by asking the (completely hypothetical and unrealistic, so don't freak out,) question whether you would agree that it might be a good idea to dismantle the state ***ifffffffffffff*** it would actually make Jews safer by a little bit.
=====
You then compounded your misreading of my comments quoting a rambam about poreish min ha'tzibbur.
Charedim aren't yechidm being poreish min hatzibbur. They *are* a tzibbur. Even Dr Slifkin is at pains to claim (wrongly) that their status *as a tzibbur* in their own right somehow is 'crucial' to the whole analysis about their obligation to serve in the army.
"One has to understand the difference between individuals and communities."
There's nothing derogatory about aliens. Some of the most beloved characters in modern fiction are aliens- Mr. Spock, ET, Chewbacca, Superman, Dr. Who...I could go on and on.
It's a scary though to have. If the majority of Orthodox rabbi are taking a position that is so obviously immoral, wrong, and against God's will in my eyes, what does it say about the state of Orthodox judism today?
"The first prime minister, David Ben Gurion, asked the Chazon Ish in a famous encounter, as follows: "Let us speak theoretically that it is decided that the Chazon Ish become Prime Minister. What would you promulgate? Would you give gemoras to all soldiers or would you provide them with sophisticated weaponry?"
The Chazon Ish replied by way of a parable which should serve as a road mark for us, a spotlight on the situation in which we find ourselves.
There was once a Jew who, in the bitter east European winters, felt his fingers about to become frostbitten. What did he do? Exactly what people there do in such a situation: he took some snow and rubbed it on his fingers. The warmth created by rubbing the water helped to thaw out his fingers. He was surprised at the efficacy of this act and announced very movingly, "Hashem, Creator of the world, thank You for having created the winter and the snow, for without them, how would I have been able to warm my limbs?"
And the Chazon Ish explained, "You established a state through the disillusion that it would protect you, but as a result, you are precisely in need of those arms to defend yourselves. We rebuff this disillusion. According to our beliefs, we have no need for weapons; we suffice with gemoras alone."
"The warmth created by rubbing the water helped to thaw out his fingers."
Tell you what. This winter, venture out to eastern Europe and try this out. And then come back and tell us the outcome. You must type and not phone in your report.
" we have no need for weapons; we suffice with gemoras alone."
1) I googled around. Seems that at the time of the mashal that was standard medical advice. (conceptzia) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093920/ Not that it really matters to the point of the nimshal.
I don’t think I know anyone like this! I have asked several people I thought were Haredi and haven’t found anyone who says it is not important to serve. Does this mean they are not actually Haredi? How are you defining “Haredi?” Is it by certain groups? I have an Israeli daughter who served in the IDF in a certain capacity training soldiers (I don’t feel comfortable saying what it is for security reasons). She sent me a pic of an entire battalion of Haredi soldiers she trained (which I also won’t post for security reasons). I think it’s important to have a definition of “Haredi” or your answers won’t be accurate.
How about the DL follow the psak of their rabbis (it's milchemes mitzvah and they are obligated to serve) and the charedim follow he psak of theirs (it's not). This is like asking for a survey of Askenazi rabbis asking if kitniyot are assur on Pesach then why can sefardim eat them.
I don't know what Charedi would say to non-charedim, but I think I know what they would say to each other, were they to discuss it. I don't think that they place any value on the Torah learned and produced by non-haredim. And I think they would say that it's the Tzionim's war, not ours. So, yes the tzionim do have to fight in a war that they are responsible for.
Let's start with this journalistic scoop: The IDF reportedly reduced its reservist numbers by hundreds of thousands to secure extra funds from the Ministry of Finance.
When the army releases 170 thousand reservists on a highly questionable pretext, yet goes to great lengths to mobilize 60 thousand ultra-orthodox individuals with obesity and myopia, I personally start questioning the integrity of this army's motives.
When you claim that the army doesn't need so many people and that therefore only non-charedim should be in it, and you're not interested in everyone equally sharing whatever responsibility exists, I personally start questioning the integrity of your motives.
I approach the issue comprehensively, considering it beyond mere populist slogans. While it's true that the ultra-orthodox ideology, which allows yeshiva students to avoid military service, lacks substantial basis, I also have doubts about the military's genuine interest in incorporating 60,000 unprepared yeshiva students lacking secondary education.
Furthermore, there's uncertainty about whether the military is prepared to accommodate their specific requirements, such as Mehadrin kosher food and gender segregation. If the army urgently needs trained soldiers, it should consider drafting these reservists, but IDF seems to be reluctant to do so.
No you don't. You found one lone article and have dreamed up a plot that makes no sense. Just because you don't understand the army, doesn't mean that something nefarious is going. Consider the following to help clear up you paranoia. In parallel with the draft issue, there's also the question of increasing Charedim in the workforce. Now suppose you read an article how in the past decade there's been a decline of employment in certain industries. Would you then question the motives of such industries would not want to hire Charedim? Would you insist that those companies have no interest in making profit for their shareholders?
Also, Dr Slifkin ran a rather screechy over the top post https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/charedim-are-forcing-yeshiva-students about the gigantic crisis which lack of charedim serving allegedly causes. Now it turns out that they aren't actually needed all that badly, so it magically becomes irrelevant.
This was done over a period of more than a decade, before the current war. And they were released because the army felt that the military value of these specific low-performers was less than the military value of other things that were needed. No reason to think that all haredim would also be of limited military value, nor is there reason to believe th
at the current situation is identical to the previous decade. As for the myopic and obese, if they're also intelligent, there's plenty for them to do. And if not, there's also plenty for them to do. And I don't think that they are a majority of haredim anyway.
Alright, suppose the army erred a decade ago. That mistake could easily be rectified now with a single decision, summoning hundreds of thousands of trained soldiers. Yet, rather than taking this straightforward route, both the military and politicians are targeting untrained Yeshiva students. They're fully aware that, instead of undergoing basic training, the majority of ultra-Orthodox individuals will end up in military prisons and subsequently be discharged from service.
They did exactly that on Simchat Torah.. a total of 700,000 soldiers were called to active service (not all reservists)
But these reservists have families / jobs / or are students. So they tried to send them home "as soon as possible'' which translated to 4-5 months, for most. Many have been called back in, or have dates to go back sometime this spring.
How long do you think it is reasonable to keep a 35 year old reservist with a wife, 5 kids and a job on duty?
You may strongly disagree with the Chareidi Rabbis. But to write "I’m also interested to hear whether the question catches them by surprise, because they’ve never even thought about it." - That's just belligerence. Sneering belligerence, frankly, isn't rationalism at all.
The difference between the charedi and DL isn't just serving in the army. I say that Slifkin should make his own decisions, leave the charedim alone and focus on the problems of his own community, which are not insignificant.
His taxes pay for their lifestyle and his children are risking their lives to protect them, so he is talking about problems affecting 'his own community'
That is their choice, he had made his own. He has not suggested anything practical, nor does he have the ability to change anything. The Doctor should be healing himself first. Currently he is a muck slinging blogger with obvious personal issues.
I don't have personal issues, just the exact issues with charedi society that millions of other people have.
Millions of others don't write hundreds and thousands of blog posts about chareidi society and have a blog dedicated to attacking them on a daily basis. It's your personal problems. You're psycho. Get help man.
Can you please ban rationalist troll? His picture is highly offensive. Gotta keep on weeding the garden.
Wow. That really is gross.
The term is "mud slinging." Muckraking is an honorable occupation.
I'd argue that someone that belongs to the weird opressive Hareidi society, that is led by charletans masquerading as rabbis and religious leaders who keep their followers poor and uneducated, entirely for their own material and power-hungry obsessions, have far greater personal problems than anyone in the DL community. Cult much?
Perhaps you should see the recent photos of what the house of R. Dov Landau looks like from the inside. That is much nicer than the hovels of R Steinman and R Eliashiv. I don't need to tell you how Slifkin and his relatives live.
They're not the leaders of charedi society, just the puppets. Check out Yanky Kanievsky's house.
Did he invest all that money from the shtender and the hoizen in real estate?
English-speaking charedi spokesmen sometimes speak of how great hesder and other dati leumi yeshiva students are, but there's almost always a whiff of condescension and box-ticking when they say it. So not-so-deep-down, the answer from them is no.
I doubt it even registers to Israeli charedim. Anything that's not "unzerer" doesn't even register, let alone rate. Why do you think Artscroll just published a book about Hatzala's efforts on Shmini Atzeret but would never do so for Magen David Adom- or the Police, or the IDF? Because Hatzala is viewed (incorrectly) as "unzerer."
Exactly, it doesn't register, we don't exist for them. That's why the question needs to be asked.
I get the sense that you have a bit of an inferiority complex, which explains why it is so hard for you to give credit to the positive aspects of chareidi society and why you feel the need to constantly lower their stature.
I know there are other reasonable justifications for why you do what you do, but my money's on IC.
I hope whatever it is doesn't stop you from leading a fully, happy life
what is unzerer?
Yiddish for "ours". Unzerer is anything in a black hat, nisht fun unzerer is anything that's not.
Lets honest about this, the majority of Charedim don't believe the Torah learning of the Dati-Leumi world is on par with the "true" learning of the Charedim - hence it doesn't offer protection.
I asked my Rav about the chareidi lack of service in the IDF and he admits that it is a difficult issue. On the one hand, we cannot send our young men away from yeshiva to the IDF. On the other hand, it's not fair for those who are serving. But fairness has to take a back seat to the spiritual future of the Torah world. I did not yet have opportunity to ask if dati-leumi (National Religious) yeshiva students should also not serve in the IDF, but based on our philosophy, I believe the answer would be that they should become chareidi and learn in a chareidi yeshiva. We do not believe in the approach of the dati-leumi community, and chareidi yeshivos entusiastically take dati-leumi students who want to "convert".
I want to add that your question can equally be asked about chilonim (secular). Does he also believe that chilonim (secular) boys should also not serve in the IDF, and should instead become religious and go to learn in yeshiva? This is an even stronger theoretical question, since it would involve reducing the size of the army even more.
But then ... wouldn't there be no army if every single young man wasn't serving?
Yes, it's a a good theoretical question what changes would be made in that theoretical case.
The answer is very simple. Hareidim will make every excuse and lie not to serve in the army because they are cowards and because they are selfish.
This comment is just an insult for the sake of insult and contributes nothing to the discussion. This disgusting comment doesn't deserve a reply. Nevertheless, these are not the reasons why chareidim don't serve. But I digress.
They call themselves Chareidim “tremblers” for a very good reason, ironically so…
Rabbi Slifkin, on his way out of Egypt: You think a band of freed slaves is going to get the Torah and then conquer the land! You live in a dream world. Why do you think G-d will take care of you for 40 years in the desert?
They sure did not conquer the land behind a shtender.
They spent 40 years learning Torah. And they never did conquer the land fully.
"Why do you think G-d will take care of you for 40 years in the desert?"
Nonsense. The גזירה to remain in the desert for 40 years had not yet been decreed.
Furthermore, the miracles of the desert were due to the מרגלים and their followers who refused to enter the land and live a normal life. Hence the miracles were only a contingency outside of the general scheme of creation בין השמשות. (I think I'm referring to יעקב עמדין here)
40 years expired in 1988. Time to get a job and weapon.
If Chareidi rabbis valued non Chareidi Torah learning as much as they value Chareidi Torah learning, wouldn't they be fighting for ALL those who are learning Torah not to be drafted?
What makes Chareidi learning special? I'd really love for a Rabbi to answer that.
Haredi learning is special because their headdresses are more expensive. That's the key.
Not at all - if that was the case, then we Litvaks would consider the learning of the Chassidim as better than ours - which we certainly do not.
גוט געזאגט!
Oh....of course.
Forget about the carpets that you wear on your head. I guess they were cheap and recycled.
I did ask this very question to two Charedi rabbi's last night, and the response was that nobody's Torah is worth more or less then anyone else, and if they want to learn instead of serving then they should do so. When I asked about the lack of men serving and how the army will not be sustainable, the answer: "if it was a true Torah state, and everyone would be learning, then we wouldn't need an army at all"
My feelings are, that it is impossible to debate honestly with people that live in dreamland.
On a side note, I do enjoy your posts, however I was offended by your alien post, I don't think it is respectful, dignified or correct to vilify other Jews, using language like that is derogatory. Have an academic/theological debate by all means but keep it civil.
Thanks and happy Pesach.
Such an absurd response. First of all, if it was a true Torah state, we will still need an army - or does he think that Am Yisrael in Biblical times was not a Torah state? Second, what if we're only 3/4 or 1/2 a Torah state? Do we need only 3/4 or 1/2 size army?
Regarding the alien analogy, I didn't think that it was derogatory at all - aliens are not necessarily superior or inferior, they just live in a different world.
There is nothing derogatory about comparing Natan Slifkin to a rat and pig. Because there are many nice rats and pigs in fiction. And Natan Slifkin is very close to a rat and pig personality, which as a zoologist, I'm sure he knows intimately well.
"Aliens are not necessarily superior or inferior" The ones you met, I guess?
Either way, your analogy makes charedim non-human (the "other"/ "those people") which is grotesque. It's also exactly the way antisemites talk. Not calling you an antisemite - just saying. You're quick to point out how certain statements by R Yaron & Mizrachi are picked up by antisemites, well how is this different? Just because its targeted exclusively at charedim doesn't make it ok. Yaron & Mizrachi were also only attacking a specific group - the irreligious.
"Second, what if we're only 3/4 or 1/2 a Torah state? Do we need only 3/4 or 1/2 size army?"
Who told you to make a state??? As Moshe Rabeinu said: ויאמר משה למה זה אתם
???? עברים את פי י-הוה
!!!והוא לא תצלח
See how easy that is?
"Who told you to make a state?"
Irrelevant. We have a state and we need to defend it.
Better yet, we have a society and civilization here, and we need to defend it. Note that we had an army before we entered the land, and before we had a king.
"Irrelevant. We have a state and we need to defend it."
It's not irrelevant. If you believe that the state is a holy entity with intrinsic value, it makes sense to make certain sacrifices in defending it that you wouldn't make if you see it as an after the fact thing which is a headache and a source of a large amount of misery. (This isn't so much an ideological point as a behavioral-economic one. You would probably put more on the line to prevent someone from evicting you from your home than you would if someone tried to steal your seat on a bus.)
"Better yet, we have a society and civilization here, and we need to defend it."
You'll need to spell out who the 'we' in that sentence is referring to. Both of them.
"Note that we had an army before we entered the land, and before we had a king."
True. And before all *that* we got the Torah in the wilderness.
"it makes sense to make certain sacrifices in defending it"
Defending what? The State? Are you so isolated to believe it's only the State that's in peril? People are in captivity. > tens of thousands are evacuated from their homes. Thousands of soldiers are in harm's way, and many more are separated from their families. The economy is under threat. And you're talking about defending the State? This is about defending כלל ישראל.
"You'll need to spell out who the 'we' in that sentence is referring to. "
I'm talking about us.
הפורש מדרכי צבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללן ולא נכנס בצרתן ולא מתענה בתעניתן אלא הולך בדרכו כאחד מגויי הארץ וכאילו אינו מהן אין לו חלק לעולם הבא.
"And before all *that* we got the Torah in the wilderness. "
You've lost the plot. We're not about sacred chronology. We're talking about the need to defend Jewish lives.
You're responding to a bunch of comments which I never made. I *don't* believe 'it's only the State that's in peril' or deny that 'People are in captivity' or 'tens of thousands are evacuated from their homes.' Quite the opposite.
None of this has the slightest to do with my actual argument, which is that one's value judgement *regarding the state as an entity* also plays a role in how much one is willing to sacrifice for it. That shouldn't come as any sort of a shock to anyone. One way to isolate the 2 is by asking the (completely hypothetical and unrealistic, so don't freak out,) question whether you would agree that it might be a good idea to dismantle the state ***ifffffffffffff*** it would actually make Jews safer by a little bit.
=====
You then compounded your misreading of my comments quoting a rambam about poreish min ha'tzibbur.
Charedim aren't yechidm being poreish min hatzibbur. They *are* a tzibbur. Even Dr Slifkin is at pains to claim (wrongly) that their status *as a tzibbur* in their own right somehow is 'crucial' to the whole analysis about their obligation to serve in the army.
"One has to understand the difference between individuals and communities."
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/idf-exemptions-the-crucial-distinction
Then dont benefit from it!
Answer: "We don't benefit from it. It benefits from us".
Better let Bialik say it....
https://benyehuda.org/read/7361
פֶּתַע פִּתְאֹם יִתְנַעֵר דּוֹר עִזּוּז וְגִבּוֹר, דּוֹר גִּבּוֹר מִלְחָמָה
וְעֵינֵיהֶם בְּרָקִים וּפְנֵיהֶם לְהָבִים –
וִידֵיהֶם לַחֲרָבוֹת!
וְהִרְעִימוּ אַדִּירִים בְּקוֹלָם, קוֹל שִׁשִּׁים רְבָבָה,
קוֹל קוֹרֵעַ הַסְּעָרָה וּבְנַהֲמַת הַמִּדְבָּר הַזּוֹעֵף יְתַחֲרֶה,
וּסְבִיבָם נִשְׂעָרָה, וּסְבִיבָם נִזְעָמָה.
הֵם קֹרְאִים:
"אֲנַחְנוּ גִּבּוֹרִים!
דּוֹר אַחֲרוֹן לְשִׁעְבּוּד וְרִאשׁוֹן לִגְאֻלָּה אֲנָחְנוּ!
יָדֵנוּ לְבַדָּהּ, יָדֵנוּ הַחֲזָקָה
אֶת־כֹּבֶד הָעֹל מֵעַל גְּאוֹן צַוָּארֵנוּ פָּרָקָה.
וַנִּזְקֹף רֹאשֵׁנוּ שָׁמָיְמָה וַיֵּצְרוּ בְעֵינֵינוּ –
וַנַּעֲרֹק לַמִּדְבָּר וַנֹּאמַר לַצִּיָּה “אִמֵּנוּ!”
עַל־רָאשֵׁי הַצּוּרִים בֵּין מִפְלְשֵׁי עָבִים
שָׁתִינוּ מִמְּקוֹרוֹ הַדְּרוֹר עִם כָּל־נִשְׁרֵי שָׁמַיִם –
וּמִי אָדוֹן לָנוּ?!
גַּם־עַתָּה – אִם־סָגַר עָלֵינוּ מִדְבָּרוֹ אֵל נָקָם,
כִּמְעַט נָגַע בָּנוּ שִׁיר עִזּוּז וָמֶרִי – וַנָּקָם!
לַחֲרָבוֹת! לָרְמָחִים! הִתְאַחֲדוּ! הֵימִינוּ!
עַל־אַף הַשָּׁמַיִם וַחֲמָתָם –
הִנְנוּ וְעָלִינוּ –
בִּסְעָרָה!"
"הִנְנוּ וְעָלִינוּ!
אִם־אָסַף הָאֵל מֵעִמָּנוּ אֶת־יָדָיו
וַאֲרוֹנוֹ מִמְּקוֹמוֹ לֹא־יָמוּשׁ –
נַעַל־נָא אֵפוֹא בִּלְעָדָיו!
וְתַחַת עֵין זַעְמוֹ, לִבְרַק חֲמַת מַבָּטוֹ,
נֵרְדְּ לְפָנֵינוּ תּוֹעֲפוֹת הֶהָרִים הָאֵלֶּה,
וּפָנִים נִתְרָאֶה בָאוֹיֵב הֶחָמוּשׁ!
הַאֲזִינוּ!
הַסְּעָרָה גַּם־הִיא קוֹרֵאת לָנוּ: “הָהִינוּ!”
לַחֲרָבוֹת! לָרְמָחִים! יִתְפָּרְקוּ הֶהָרִים, יִשְׁתַּבְּרוּ הַגְּבָעוֹת
אוֹ יִפְּלוּ פְגָרֵינוּ חֳמָרִים חֳמָרִים –
הִנְנוּ וְעָלִינוּ
הֶהָרָה!" – – – –
– – – –
וְהָיָה הַמִּדְבָּר בְּרֶגַע הַהוּא עָרִיץ אָיֹם מְאֹד –
וּמִי יִכְבְּשֶׁנוּ?
וְעָלָה בַסְּעָרָה קוֹל פְּחָדִים וְנַהֲקַת עֲנוֹת –
אֵין זֹאת
כִּי אִם־יִיצֶר הַמִּדְבָּר בְּקִרְבּוֹ הַוֹּת,
דָּבָר מָר, דָּבָר אַכְזָר וְנוֹרָא מְאֹד.
וְעָבַר הַסַּעַר. נִשְׁתַּתֵּק הַמִּדְבָּר מִזַּעְפּוֹ וְטָהַר.
וּבְהִירִים מַזְהִירִים מְאֹד הַשָּׁמַיִם וּגְדוֹלָה הַדְּמָמָה.
וְאֹרְחוֹת, אֲשֶׁר הִדְבִּיקָתָן הַסּוּפָה בְּאַחַד הַמְּקוֹמוֹת,
תָּקֹמְנָה מִכְּרֹעַ עַל־פְּנֵיהֶן וּבֵרְכוּ אֶת־שֵׁם אֱלֹהֵיהֶן –
וּפֹה כְבַתְּחִלָּה נְטוּשִׁים בַּחוֹל שִׁשִּׁים רִבּוֹא פְגָרִים
וְעַל־פְּנֵיהֶם כְּעֵין אוֹר: הִשְׁלִים אוֹתָם הַמָּוֶת גַּם עִם־אֱלֹהֵיהֶם.
וְאִישׁ אֵין בָּאָרֶץ שֶׁיֵּדַע מְקוֹמָם וּבְנָפְלָם וּבְקוּמָם –
צָבְרָה הַסְּעָרָה הֲרָרִים סְבִיבָם וַתִּסְגֹּר עֲלֵיהֶם.
There's nothing derogatory about aliens. Some of the most beloved characters in modern fiction are aliens- Mr. Spock, ET, Chewbacca, Superman, Dr. Who...I could go on and on.
So the entire Tenach that had an army were simply not "learning" enough. It's a new religion. Vanity project.
Actually, Moish, the assumption that we are living in Biblical times is the new religion (unless you meant that we are in midst of the Tochacha).
It's a scary though to have. If the majority of Orthodox rabbi are taking a position that is so obviously immoral, wrong, and against God's will in my eyes, what does it say about the state of Orthodox judism today?
That it is in big trouble and as bad as the meraglim who wanted to stay in the desert and learn and not conquer the Land.
I think they would say something like this:
https://www.chareidi.org/archives5778/acharei/achaznishach78.htm
"The first prime minister, David Ben Gurion, asked the Chazon Ish in a famous encounter, as follows: "Let us speak theoretically that it is decided that the Chazon Ish become Prime Minister. What would you promulgate? Would you give gemoras to all soldiers or would you provide them with sophisticated weaponry?"
The Chazon Ish replied by way of a parable which should serve as a road mark for us, a spotlight on the situation in which we find ourselves.
There was once a Jew who, in the bitter east European winters, felt his fingers about to become frostbitten. What did he do? Exactly what people there do in such a situation: he took some snow and rubbed it on his fingers. The warmth created by rubbing the water helped to thaw out his fingers. He was surprised at the efficacy of this act and announced very movingly, "Hashem, Creator of the world, thank You for having created the winter and the snow, for without them, how would I have been able to warm my limbs?"
And the Chazon Ish explained, "You established a state through the disillusion that it would protect you, but as a result, you are precisely in need of those arms to defend yourselves. We rebuff this disillusion. According to our beliefs, we have no need for weapons; we suffice with gemoras alone."
"The warmth created by rubbing the water helped to thaw out his fingers."
Tell you what. This winter, venture out to eastern Europe and try this out. And then come back and tell us the outcome. You must type and not phone in your report.
" we have no need for weapons; we suffice with gemoras alone."
We doesn't pasken this way.
I have no idea you're trying to say.
1) You don't treat frostbite with snow.
2) There's no accepted psak that we fight wars with gemoras alone.
1) I googled around. Seems that at the time of the mashal that was standard medical advice. (conceptzia) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093920/ Not that it really matters to the point of the nimshal.
2) Right. That was the chazon ish's point. Why are they fighting so many wars to begin with? More mivtzaim than chabad. https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A6%D7%A2%D7%99_%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90_%D7%94%D7%92%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C
I don’t think I know anyone like this! I have asked several people I thought were Haredi and haven’t found anyone who says it is not important to serve. Does this mean they are not actually Haredi? How are you defining “Haredi?” Is it by certain groups? I have an Israeli daughter who served in the IDF in a certain capacity training soldiers (I don’t feel comfortable saying what it is for security reasons). She sent me a pic of an entire battalion of Haredi soldiers she trained (which I also won’t post for security reasons). I think it’s important to have a definition of “Haredi” or your answers won’t be accurate.
The litvish, chasidish, shas rabbis and their students
You make excellent points. Thanks for posting.
How about the DL follow the psak of their rabbis (it's milchemes mitzvah and they are obligated to serve) and the charedim follow he psak of theirs (it's not). This is like asking for a survey of Askenazi rabbis asking if kitniyot are assur on Pesach then why can sefardim eat them.
I don't know what Charedi would say to non-charedim, but I think I know what they would say to each other, were they to discuss it. I don't think that they place any value on the Torah learned and produced by non-haredim. And I think they would say that it's the Tzionim's war, not ours. So, yes the tzionim do have to fight in a war that they are responsible for.
"I don't know....."
"I think I know....."
"I don't think...."
"I think...."
Very rationalist arguments I must say.
Most wouldnt say that
Let's start with this journalistic scoop: The IDF reportedly reduced its reservist numbers by hundreds of thousands to secure extra funds from the Ministry of Finance.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/635184?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
How is that relevant?
When the army releases 170 thousand reservists on a highly questionable pretext, yet goes to great lengths to mobilize 60 thousand ultra-orthodox individuals with obesity and myopia, I personally start questioning the integrity of this army's motives.
When you claim that the army doesn't need so many people and that therefore only non-charedim should be in it, and you're not interested in everyone equally sharing whatever responsibility exists, I personally start questioning the integrity of your motives.
I approach the issue comprehensively, considering it beyond mere populist slogans. While it's true that the ultra-orthodox ideology, which allows yeshiva students to avoid military service, lacks substantial basis, I also have doubts about the military's genuine interest in incorporating 60,000 unprepared yeshiva students lacking secondary education.
Furthermore, there's uncertainty about whether the military is prepared to accommodate their specific requirements, such as Mehadrin kosher food and gender segregation. If the army urgently needs trained soldiers, it should consider drafting these reservists, but IDF seems to be reluctant to do so.
"I approach the issue comprehensively"
No you don't. You found one lone article and have dreamed up a plot that makes no sense. Just because you don't understand the army, doesn't mean that something nefarious is going. Consider the following to help clear up you paranoia. In parallel with the draft issue, there's also the question of increasing Charedim in the workforce. Now suppose you read an article how in the past decade there's been a decline of employment in certain industries. Would you then question the motives of such industries would not want to hire Charedim? Would you insist that those companies have no interest in making profit for their shareholders?
"requirements... such as Mehadrin kosher food"
There is Mehadrin food available in the army.
Also, Dr Slifkin ran a rather screechy over the top post https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/charedim-are-forcing-yeshiva-students about the gigantic crisis which lack of charedim serving allegedly causes. Now it turns out that they aren't actually needed all that badly, so it magically becomes irrelevant.
This was done over a period of more than a decade, before the current war. And they were released because the army felt that the military value of these specific low-performers was less than the military value of other things that were needed. No reason to think that all haredim would also be of limited military value, nor is there reason to believe th
at the current situation is identical to the previous decade. As for the myopic and obese, if they're also intelligent, there's plenty for them to do. And if not, there's also plenty for them to do. And I don't think that they are a majority of haredim anyway.
Alright, suppose the army erred a decade ago. That mistake could easily be rectified now with a single decision, summoning hundreds of thousands of trained soldiers. Yet, rather than taking this straightforward route, both the military and politicians are targeting untrained Yeshiva students. They're fully aware that, instead of undergoing basic training, the majority of ultra-Orthodox individuals will end up in military prisons and subsequently be discharged from service.
They did exactly that on Simchat Torah.. a total of 700,000 soldiers were called to active service (not all reservists)
But these reservists have families / jobs / or are students. So they tried to send them home "as soon as possible'' which translated to 4-5 months, for most. Many have been called back in, or have dates to go back sometime this spring.
How long do you think it is reasonable to keep a 35 year old reservist with a wife, 5 kids and a job on duty?
One second, are you claiming they sent home the reservists?
So they do have a Bain Hazmanim. And all of those complaints about bochurim having Bain Hazmanim were based on just plain kvetching.
"How long do you think it is reasonable to keep a 35 year old reservist with a wife, 5 kids and a job on duty?"
This is a problem generally, regardless of military size. You're surely more aware that I am that going into Gaza isn't something you casually do over a weekend. It requires a sustained tour of duty. But Israeli military doctrine is built on Hatraah, Hartaah, and Hachraah. https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%91%D7%99%D7%98%D7%97%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%A9%D7%9C_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C#%D7%A2%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%91%D7%99%D7%98%D7%97%D7%95%D7%9F It's not designed to accommodate long term hot wars.
I mean the other reservists - the ones described in this article. https://www.inn.co.il/news/635184
It's not the army but the politicians and the bussy bodies like Slifkin that are haranging for the charedi draft.
And, of course, the dati leumi roshei yeshivos and mothers and others. I guess you don't read Mekor Rishon.
Look at this
https://mobile.srugim.co.il/article/923412
If the IDF has to keep most of the productive citizenry mobilized indefinitely, the economy collapses and the charedim can't get their subsidies.
You may strongly disagree with the Chareidi Rabbis. But to write "I’m also interested to hear whether the question catches them by surprise, because they’ve never even thought about it." - That's just belligerence. Sneering belligerence, frankly, isn't rationalism at all.
https://www.amimagazine.org/2024/04/03/the-deepening-crisis-over-drafting-the-talmidei-hayeshivos/ somewhere in there (you probably need to subscribe, but I think it’s free) he mentions that the exemption isn’t for chareidim, but for those learning in Yeshiva. He’s saying there’s no difference what community the bochur comes from and all learning is equally important.