1. He makes a lot of true points, but this is not and was never the reason why chareidim don't serve. Which is why nobody else ever said that reason. Even if the bad security situation is the fault of the chilonim, that itself wouldn't be a reason to avoid service
2. Amaratzus from the Zvhil-Mezbuz Rebbe of Boston. Who is he, who are his chassidim? Does he fir tisch in Boston?
תדמיין תרחיש, שבו גולדקנופף רמטכ"ל, אלוף צפון מר גפני, ואלוף דרום מר ליצמן, וגם 95 אחוז מתתי האלופים הם פרוש ומקלב וכן הלאה,
הצבא "בגדול" חרדי ודמוקרטי ויש חופש למי שלא רוצה דת, אבל מפעם לפעם שומעים על שמחייבים בפקודה לחיילים החילונים להשתתף בשיעור תורה מהרב זילברשטיין, וגם יש חיוב על הנחת תפילין ותפילה לכה"פ פעם ביום,
בנוסף יש הרבה הורים שמתלוננים על כך שהילדים חזרו מהצבא ערבדקים ועם שטריימל ועושים להם את המוות להוציא את הטלוויזיה מהבית וגם שגעו אותם עם כשרויות בבית, עד שלא נשאר להם ברירה והעיפו את הבן שלהם מהבית,
במצב כזה, כמה חילונים היו שולחים את הילדים שלהם לצבא? ומה הם היו עושים כדי לא להכריח אותם לשלוח ?
זה המצב כיום אבל בדיוק הפוך, ע"ע שירת נשים בצבא, הורדת זקנים וכולי, ולא יעזור "פלוגות חרדיות" כל זמן שהמצב מכל הבחינות חילונית, אז מה שנשאר לחרדים הוא לנסות לעזור מבחוץ כמה שרק אפשר ובמה שרק אפשר ואין אפשרות יותר,
והשאלה הטיפשית מה יהיה אם החרדים יהיו רוב במדינה? אז באמת יהיה פלוס מינוס התרחיש שכתבתי, ואז לא תראו כמעט חילונים בצבא...
מניסיוני הקטן כל פעם שהצגתי תרחיש כזה לחילוני הוא מיד התקפל עם הבנה אמיתית למגזר, הלוואי שזה יעזור משהו, האנטישמיות היהודית ה"י בעקבות זה נורא ואיום.
I take issue with Rabbi Kornreich's belittling the present threat by Hamas. The Lubavitcher Rebbe used to cite הלכות שבת, סימן שכ"ט. Here is the treatment in Shulchan Aruch HaRav:
The following laws apply] when non-Jews take up arms against Jewish towns:24 If [the non-Jews] come [to attack the towns] for financial gain, the Shabbos may not be desecrated because of them.25 If, however, [the non-Jews] come to kill, and even if they come with no expressed intent, but there is concern that perhaps they come to kill, one should confront [the non-Jews] while armed and desecrate the Shabbos because of them.26 [Indeed, these steps may be taken] not only when their arrival is imminent, but even if [the non-Jews] are merely threatening to come.
In a town that is near the border, even if [the non-Jews] only seek to come for matters concerning hay and straw, the Shabbos may be desecrated because of them, lest they capture the town, and from there, the [entire] land will be easier for them to conquer.
The Rebbe used to say that giving any part of Israel over to Arab control constitutes a threat to the Jews in Israel. And not only in Israel: The halachah is derived from a Gemara which was dealing with a similar threat to the Jews in Neharde'ah, which is in Bavel!
Hamas most definitely hoped to continue further into Israel, even as far as Dimona or Tel Aviv. This is quite definitely an existential threat.
Note that he starts with a disclaimer that he's speaking his own opinion and that his thoughts do not necessarily reflect the official Charedi position. In other words, he is either rejecting דעת תורה for his own בעל הבתיש musings or divining דעת תורה by some inscrutable means. The latter being rather ineffective, we can safely reject what he writes. (But that's typical. In many cases, authentic דעת תורה is never actually provided but presented by non-spokesmen who argue the דעת תורה perspective with the disclaimer that they're not necessarily presenting the דעת תורה perspective. I'm not sure what to make of the recent video footage of Rav Landau reading a prepared statement from a piece of paper- who wrote it?)
As such, it should come as no surprise that one his central points is to ignore and reject the halacha of עסקי תבן וקש. That point also implies an indifference to the suffering of tens of thousands of Jews who have been made refugees and their livelihood destroyed or severely damaged. (Of course there are also the victims whose misfortune is of such a nature that I can't even begin to contemplate.)
I'm not a Chabadnik, but it seems to be that the Rebbe's unique anti-Zionist nationalism was manifested in the well being of ALL his fellow Jews. Hence the overlap with hawkish messianic Zionists whose eschatological vision is very distinct from the Rebbe's. That kind of concern for the well being of his fellow Jews is missing from DK's piece of trash.
But of course honesty is not in and of itself a virtue. It's just revealing.
Lest you say it's just him, Avi Shafran once made much the same comment: "It doesn't matter what flag flies over the Kotel." (It must really kill him that when he goes to the Kotel there's a large Israeli flag in the back.)
The funniest thing is that Kornreich goes on and on about how charedim "didn't ask for this" (which is not true; most charedim arrived in Israel after 1948) and yet *he himself made aliyah*. I'm sure he feels very guilty.
Also, in Siman 328, when it discusses violating Shabbat for a חולה שיש בו סכנה, it says that the learned people should be the ones to desecrate Shabbat to save a life, to demonstrate the severity of delaying treatment:
"Nevertheless, the optimum manner of performing the mitzvah is to endeavor that everything be performed by Jews who are great in knowledge63 and not by ordinary men or women, so that the Shabbos will not be viewed lightly in their eyes, and they [will not] come to adopt leniencies even when there is no threat to life. Also, this will be a public exposition of how the law should be practiced."
Rabbi Kornreich therefore can't be correct: If a Hamasnik shot a Jew, and that person can bleed to death if left unattended, a learned person is obligated to violate Shabbat to save the victim's life. But to stop the Hamasnik at the border, we should look for non-Jews or people who don't keep Shabbat to stop the Hamasnik from invading?!
As Hirsch's comment touches on this, something should be made clear about the terminology:
Whenever you see a "chok giyus" being mentioned, it is always a euphemism. Namely, charedim (and everyone else in Israel, including women and Arabs) are *already* obligated to serve by law. All of the exemptions are ad-hoc. The Supreme Court has ruled, not too wildly (and this is coming from someone who thinks the Supreme Court- actually Bagatz, which is not the same thing- rules way too wildly, way too often), that that legal situation is unacceptable, and have demanded a law be passed- a law *exempting* charedim, essentially. Theoretically, the government could pass a law saying "charedim are exempt" and the Court would be happy. Well, not that extreme, but you get the basic idea.
The *last* people who want such a law passed, though, are the charedim. Because no law passed will say that. Rather, it will probably define "Torah learning," limit exemptions, impose punishments, and so on. And the last thing the charedim want is to have their exemption *defined*, because it would be easy to find those who don't match the exemption and start drafting them, among other "problems" for them.
I'm oversimplifying, but that's essentially it. And so they kick the can down the road over and over again, until they can't any more.
The Supreme Court or acting as Bagatz is supposed to cancel every law or government action which doesn't affect or apply to all citizens equally.Sometimes there are rational exemptions. Exempting a whole fraction of society does not qualify especially for the reasons presented by the Chareidi leadership.
Ever heard of the Tal law? That is the current legal framework - even though it is a law passed by the knesset, it was declared illegal by the high court. The high court would not be happy with, your claim "Theoretically, the government could pass a law saying "charedim are exempt" and the Court would be happy" is incorrect.
Well, Chareidiphobia usually accompanies Bibiphobia and Smotrich-BenGvirophobia - and if he didn't live in Israel he, like the others, would also be shedding crocodile tears over the fate of the poor Palestinians......
Anyone catch this? Rav Moshe Hillel Hirsch seemed to blame the fact that torah did not protect from the court on bitul torah. He says that if they learn without bitul torah it will fix the problem. From the anount of times he said "zeh vadai" seems like he was trying to convince himself.
Chareidim who have internet also learn and daven (most of said chareidim work also, which is why they have internet.) Slifkin doesn't serve in the army at all. He's a flaming hypocrite.
Not quite. Rav Natan is too old to serve and has been for some time. I'm sure he would love to do so if he could. In any event, he is being moser nefesh because his children serve in the army. Any good father would rather risk his own life than that of his son or daughter, R"l.
Don't buy it for a second. The army of the Torah has no such age limit, yet "Rav" Natan has no problem constantly bringing up pesukim about the Torah army. The fact that he sends his children to serve while he won't makes it even worse. Excuses are a dime a dozen. Excuses are not the same thing as mesiras nefesh, you know.
Why is the חיוב dependent on the secular state? What happened to האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה?! What happened to אפילו כלה מחופתה?! Oh, all of the sudden that loses relevance when inconvenient?
That's not a valid tainah. A halachik milchama (which is how Natan views this war) is a chiyuv on all people under 50, and Natan is 48. He therefore has a chiyuv in milchama, irrespective of if the IDF accepts him or not.
In addition, he can help out in non combat roles, or in the role of a learner/davener. Instead, he runs a museum and posts inflammatory slander against another religious, God fearing group of Jews.
Ah so it possible to be involved with the outside world, still learn and daven, and still be Haredi. Even though the internet garnered a whole Asifa in Citi Field opposed to it.
Also, didn’t realize commenting on this blog was considered working and making an honest living.
I have two answers to this, based on the Dati Leumi understanding, and based on the charedi understanding.
For the Dati Leumi approach, you pasken that there is a milchemes mitzva going on, which is mechayev all Jews around the world to fight the Arabs (yes, even in America). However, I am a levi, and in the eternal words of the Rambam, I am seperated for avodah, and am therefore not mechayev in war (on the flipside, i cannot land in Eretz Yisrael). Hence me not in the army.
And according to one of the charedi approaches, there is no halachik war (see Rambam sefer hamitvos on milchama), so there is no problem with me not being in the army! (The fact that charedim who take this view learn and daven is more of a kind gesture and feeling of helping out those is danger, rather than due to a chiyuv of helping with the war).
1) you don’t need to answer for the DL approach. They are actually out there fighting and putting their beliefs into practice. Just look at what they are doing rather than be hypothetical.
2) if Haredim don’t think this is a Milchemes Mitzvah then they shouldn’t be upset that they won’t get any money from the wartime budget. Since their participation is only a “kind gesture”.
Its not a stiroh. Whilst the charedim are not mechayev in milchama, and the Torah learbing is nkt due to a chiyuv milchama, they are lema'aseh helping with the war effort, and therefore want Torah learning to be on the war budget.
Also, I applaud all the Dati Leumi who are consistent with their halachik world view. My main problem is with slifkin who claim to have the same worldview, yet doesn't act on it.
As with everything in Jewish law, it is subject to machlokes. I am ware that it may seems weird.
However, the Rambam paskens it as halacha lemaisah, making it a valid psak din. Very few, if any subsequent halacha sefer mefurash argue with it (they do question it, but leave it as a valid psak).
The Rambam in the hakdama minyan hamitzvos clearly states that a milchama can only be done with a king, sanhedrin and Cohen gadol (page 202 in the shabsie frenkel sefer hamitzvos).
The Rambam seems to make it very clear that a levi is patur from milchama. He isn't mechalek between reshus or mitzva. He also gives a reason for this exemption; because a levi is set aside from the rest of clal Yisrael for avodas hashem, and is therefore not allowed to be used for other matters, e.g. fighting wars.
Based on this reasoning, there shouldn't be a reason to be mechalek between milchamos.
On the flipside, it's the same reason why levi'im are unable to inherit land in Israel, because they are speretaed for service to God, and not for landownership (see rambam hilchos shmita veyovel 13:12).
Because, if I might characterize most pious unwilling-to-serve Chareidim, I wouldn’t label them as religious, rather more like gutless wimps.
What’s wrong with criticising a large fraction of the citizenry who refuse to defend their country with their lives in contrast to chilonim, Druze and a few thousand truly religious Jews?
It's more than a few thousand truly religious Jews: I've seen an estimate that 45% of the casualties in the current conflict are from the religious Zionist community.
I would like to remind you that firstly, Arabs and University students also have such exemptions, why aren't you calling on them tl joom the army?
Secondly, there is nothing innately religious or unreligous about currently serving in the army. There is no halachik milchama going on (see Rambam in sefer hamitzvos on milchama), and it is therefore unnecessarily risking your life, which is assur (and don't bring in rodef because its something which is currently able to be done by other people). Therefore, the charedi rabbis have pskened that one should not join the army.
I understand that the Dati Leumi poskim argue on this (with some even straight out saying that the Israeli government can somehow take the place of a sanhedrin???), but at the end of the day, the charedi position is well founded in halacha, and is therefore slanderous to call it 'unreligious'.
The charedim, however, recognise that learning Torah and tefilah, based on numerous ma'morie chazal, can save Jewish lives, irrespective of an official classification of milchama. They therefore do what they can to help, without physically or spiritually putting themselves in danger.
Finally, I'd like to remind you that in 1948, when the Arabs were a legitimate risk to life in the charedi yishuvim, the Frum people took up arms and fought to protect themselves (famously, R Chaim Kanievsky took up a firearm to force the Arabs out of the yishiv). But this seemed to only occur once there was legitimate din Rodef on the Arabs.
That's not the point. I understand that people don't want Arabs in the IDF, but if the problem is lack of manpower, surely we should get Arabs to fight as well? Why are you only preying on the charedim?
Charedim are Jews and don’t have the problem that Arabs have. The Druze Arabs who don’t have this problem are already have mandatory service. So this is already done.
תדמיין תרחיש, שבו גולדקנופף רמטכ"ל, אלוף צפון מר גפני, ואלוף דרום מר ליצמן, וגם 95 אחוז מתתי האלופים הם פרוש ומקלב וכן הלאה,
הצבא "בגדול" חרדי ודמוקרטי ויש חופש למי שלא רוצה דת, אבל מפעם לפעם שומעים על שמחייבים בפקודה לחיילים החילונים להשתתף בשיעור תורה מהרב זילברשטיין, וגם יש חיוב על הנחת תפילין ותפילה לכה"פ פעם ביום,
בנוסף יש הרבה הורים שמתלוננים על כך שהילדים חזרו מהצבא ערבדקים ועם שטריימל ועושים להם את המוות להוציא את הטלוויזיה מהבית וגם שגעו אותם עם כשרויות בבית, עד שלא נשאר להם ברירה והעיפו את הבן שלהם מהבית,
במצב כזה, כמה חילונים היו שולחים את הילדים שלהם לצבא? ומה הם היו עושים כדי לא להכריח אותם לשלוח ?
זה המצב כיום אבל בדיוק הפוך, ע"ע שירת נשים בצבא, הורדת זקנים וכולי, ולא יעזור "פלוגות חרדיות" כל זמן שהמצב מכל הבחינות חילונית, אז מה שנשאר לחרדים הוא לנסות לעזור מבחוץ כמה שרק אפשר ובמה שרק אפשר ואין אפשרות יותר,
והשאלה הטיפשית מה יהיה אם החרדים יהיו רוב במדינה? אז באמת יהיה פלוס מינוס התרחיש שכתבתי, ואז לא תראו כמעט חילונים בצבא...
מניסיוני הקטן כל פעם שהצגתי תרחיש כזה לחילוני הוא מיד התקפל עם הבנה אמיתית למגזר, הלוואי שזה יעזור משהו, האנטישמיות היהודית ה"י בעקבות זה נורא ואיום.
Well, the poster clearly says that the mother can't sleep because her Moishe may become a chiloni in the army, not because he may die. Slifkin continues with his incitement.
You may also be intrigued by the fact that he's lived here for around 56 years but has not taken up Israeli citizenship... Unfortunately being American doesn't appear to mean more moderate here...
Although perhaps it's better not to post it here, Times of Israel has just put up two blogposts:
1. Rabbi Dovid Kornreich, a long-time opponent of Rabbi Slifkin, against drafting Charedi yeshiva students (https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/one-haredi-mans-view-on-drafting-yeshiva-boys/)
2. Rabbi Yizchak Aharon Korff, who says that there is no justification for a blanket exemption for Torah learners (https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/idf-army-service-is-a-halachic-obligation/)
1. He makes a lot of true points, but this is not and was never the reason why chareidim don't serve. Which is why nobody else ever said that reason. Even if the bad security situation is the fault of the chilonim, that itself wouldn't be a reason to avoid service
2. Amaratzus from the Zvhil-Mezbuz Rebbe of Boston. Who is he, who are his chassidim? Does he fir tisch in Boston?
תדמיין תרחיש, שבו גולדקנופף רמטכ"ל, אלוף צפון מר גפני, ואלוף דרום מר ליצמן, וגם 95 אחוז מתתי האלופים הם פרוש ומקלב וכן הלאה,
הצבא "בגדול" חרדי ודמוקרטי ויש חופש למי שלא רוצה דת, אבל מפעם לפעם שומעים על שמחייבים בפקודה לחיילים החילונים להשתתף בשיעור תורה מהרב זילברשטיין, וגם יש חיוב על הנחת תפילין ותפילה לכה"פ פעם ביום,
בנוסף יש הרבה הורים שמתלוננים על כך שהילדים חזרו מהצבא ערבדקים ועם שטריימל ועושים להם את המוות להוציא את הטלוויזיה מהבית וגם שגעו אותם עם כשרויות בבית, עד שלא נשאר להם ברירה והעיפו את הבן שלהם מהבית,
במצב כזה, כמה חילונים היו שולחים את הילדים שלהם לצבא? ומה הם היו עושים כדי לא להכריח אותם לשלוח ?
זה המצב כיום אבל בדיוק הפוך, ע"ע שירת נשים בצבא, הורדת זקנים וכולי, ולא יעזור "פלוגות חרדיות" כל זמן שהמצב מכל הבחינות חילונית, אז מה שנשאר לחרדים הוא לנסות לעזור מבחוץ כמה שרק אפשר ובמה שרק אפשר ואין אפשרות יותר,
והשאלה הטיפשית מה יהיה אם החרדים יהיו רוב במדינה? אז באמת יהיה פלוס מינוס התרחיש שכתבתי, ואז לא תראו כמעט חילונים בצבא...
מניסיוני הקטן כל פעם שהצגתי תרחיש כזה לחילוני הוא מיד התקפל עם הבנה אמיתית למגזר, הלוואי שזה יעזור משהו, האנטישמיות היהודית ה"י בעקבות זה נורא ואיום.
I take issue with Rabbi Kornreich's belittling the present threat by Hamas. The Lubavitcher Rebbe used to cite הלכות שבת, סימן שכ"ט. Here is the treatment in Shulchan Aruch HaRav:
The following laws apply] when non-Jews take up arms against Jewish towns:24 If [the non-Jews] come [to attack the towns] for financial gain, the Shabbos may not be desecrated because of them.25 If, however, [the non-Jews] come to kill, and even if they come with no expressed intent, but there is concern that perhaps they come to kill, one should confront [the non-Jews] while armed and desecrate the Shabbos because of them.26 [Indeed, these steps may be taken] not only when their arrival is imminent, but even if [the non-Jews] are merely threatening to come.
In a town that is near the border, even if [the non-Jews] only seek to come for matters concerning hay and straw, the Shabbos may be desecrated because of them, lest they capture the town, and from there, the [entire] land will be easier for them to conquer.
The Rebbe used to say that giving any part of Israel over to Arab control constitutes a threat to the Jews in Israel. And not only in Israel: The halachah is derived from a Gemara which was dealing with a similar threat to the Jews in Neharde'ah, which is in Bavel!
Hamas most definitely hoped to continue further into Israel, even as far as Dimona or Tel Aviv. This is quite definitely an existential threat.
Note that he starts with a disclaimer that he's speaking his own opinion and that his thoughts do not necessarily reflect the official Charedi position. In other words, he is either rejecting דעת תורה for his own בעל הבתיש musings or divining דעת תורה by some inscrutable means. The latter being rather ineffective, we can safely reject what he writes. (But that's typical. In many cases, authentic דעת תורה is never actually provided but presented by non-spokesmen who argue the דעת תורה perspective with the disclaimer that they're not necessarily presenting the דעת תורה perspective. I'm not sure what to make of the recent video footage of Rav Landau reading a prepared statement from a piece of paper- who wrote it?)
As such, it should come as no surprise that one his central points is to ignore and reject the halacha of עסקי תבן וקש. That point also implies an indifference to the suffering of tens of thousands of Jews who have been made refugees and their livelihood destroyed or severely damaged. (Of course there are also the victims whose misfortune is of such a nature that I can't even begin to contemplate.)
I'm not a Chabadnik, but it seems to be that the Rebbe's unique anti-Zionist nationalism was manifested in the well being of ALL his fellow Jews. Hence the overlap with hawkish messianic Zionists whose eschatological vision is very distinct from the Rebbe's. That kind of concern for the well being of his fellow Jews is missing from DK's piece of trash.
Ah, Kornreich, ugly and truthful as ever.
But of course honesty is not in and of itself a virtue. It's just revealing.
Lest you say it's just him, Avi Shafran once made much the same comment: "It doesn't matter what flag flies over the Kotel." (It must really kill him that when he goes to the Kotel there's a large Israeli flag in the back.)
The funniest thing is that Kornreich goes on and on about how charedim "didn't ask for this" (which is not true; most charedim arrived in Israel after 1948) and yet *he himself made aliyah*. I'm sure he feels very guilty.
Also, in Siman 328, when it discusses violating Shabbat for a חולה שיש בו סכנה, it says that the learned people should be the ones to desecrate Shabbat to save a life, to demonstrate the severity of delaying treatment:
"Nevertheless, the optimum manner of performing the mitzvah is to endeavor that everything be performed by Jews who are great in knowledge63 and not by ordinary men or women, so that the Shabbos will not be viewed lightly in their eyes, and they [will not] come to adopt leniencies even when there is no threat to life. Also, this will be a public exposition of how the law should be practiced."
Rabbi Kornreich therefore can't be correct: If a Hamasnik shot a Jew, and that person can bleed to death if left unattended, a learned person is obligated to violate Shabbat to save the victim's life. But to stop the Hamasnik at the border, we should look for non-Jews or people who don't keep Shabbat to stop the Hamasnik from invading?!
As Hirsch's comment touches on this, something should be made clear about the terminology:
Whenever you see a "chok giyus" being mentioned, it is always a euphemism. Namely, charedim (and everyone else in Israel, including women and Arabs) are *already* obligated to serve by law. All of the exemptions are ad-hoc. The Supreme Court has ruled, not too wildly (and this is coming from someone who thinks the Supreme Court- actually Bagatz, which is not the same thing- rules way too wildly, way too often), that that legal situation is unacceptable, and have demanded a law be passed- a law *exempting* charedim, essentially. Theoretically, the government could pass a law saying "charedim are exempt" and the Court would be happy. Well, not that extreme, but you get the basic idea.
The *last* people who want such a law passed, though, are the charedim. Because no law passed will say that. Rather, it will probably define "Torah learning," limit exemptions, impose punishments, and so on. And the last thing the charedim want is to have their exemption *defined*, because it would be easy to find those who don't match the exemption and start drafting them, among other "problems" for them.
I'm oversimplifying, but that's essentially it. And so they kick the can down the road over and over again, until they can't any more.
The Supreme Court or acting as Bagatz is supposed to cancel every law or government action which doesn't affect or apply to all citizens equally.Sometimes there are rational exemptions. Exempting a whole fraction of society does not qualify especially for the reasons presented by the Chareidi leadership.
Note that I said "not too wildly."
I can see a rational reluctance to conscript many Arabs. If charedim have no problem being put in the same boat as them...well, that's on them.
Nonsense. The exemptions are set out in law and are not ad-hoc.
Do cite said law to me.
Ever heard of the Tal law? That is the current legal framework - even though it is a law passed by the knesset, it was declared illegal by the high court. The high court would not be happy with, your claim "Theoretically, the government could pass a law saying "charedim are exempt" and the Court would be happy" is incorrect.
Well, then, it's not the law.
Note my word "theoretically" there.
Thats very old. Struck down a while ago.
Well all I can say is times up. The current situation is unsustainable. And everyone knows it.
Interesting take on this:
https://bshch.blogspot.com/2024/03/blog-post_4208.html
Our enemies are already rubbing their hands in glee.
Naor Narkis has made many Lechaims over this.
Well, Chareidiphobia usually accompanies Bibiphobia and Smotrich-BenGvirophobia - and if he didn't live in Israel he, like the others, would also be shedding crocodile tears over the fate of the poor Palestinians......
What a spoiled, infantile, welfare mentality. A lifetime of free handouts will do that to you I guess . . . coming from our "elites", no less.
Anyone catch this? Rav Moshe Hillel Hirsch seemed to blame the fact that torah did not protect from the court on bitul torah. He says that if they learn without bitul torah it will fix the problem. From the anount of times he said "zeh vadai" seems like he was trying to convince himself.
Natan, why aren't you doing your part for the supposed milchemes mitzva, instead of writing articles agaisnt other religious Jews?
Why don’t Haredim who have internet and comment on this blog do their part and learn and daven instead of commenting?
Chareidim who have internet also learn and daven (most of said chareidim work also, which is why they have internet.) Slifkin doesn't serve in the army at all. He's a flaming hypocrite.
Not quite. Rav Natan is too old to serve and has been for some time. I'm sure he would love to do so if he could. In any event, he is being moser nefesh because his children serve in the army. Any good father would rather risk his own life than that of his son or daughter, R"l.
Don't buy it for a second. The army of the Torah has no such age limit, yet "Rav" Natan has no problem constantly bringing up pesukim about the Torah army. The fact that he sends his children to serve while he won't makes it even worse. Excuses are a dime a dozen. Excuses are not the same thing as mesiras nefesh, you know.
"The army of the Torah has no such age limit"
Maybe you should crack open a Chumash every now and then.
What does the Chumash say about 50 yr olds, Nachum?
If the state wont draft him theres no חיוב.
Why is the חיוב dependent on the secular state? What happened to האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה?! What happened to אפילו כלה מחופתה?! Oh, all of the sudden that loses relevance when inconvenient?
Bandana frantically searching otzar hachochmo for q shittoh that the age limit is lav davka.
That's not a valid tainah. A halachik milchama (which is how Natan views this war) is a chiyuv on all people under 50, and Natan is 48. He therefore has a chiyuv in milchama, irrespective of if the IDF accepts him or not.
In addition, he can help out in non combat roles, or in the role of a learner/davener. Instead, he runs a museum and posts inflammatory slander against another religious, God fearing group of Jews.
Why isn't he helping with this milchama?
Ah so it possible to be involved with the outside world, still learn and daven, and still be Haredi. Even though the internet garnered a whole Asifa in Citi Field opposed to it.
Also, didn’t realize commenting on this blog was considered working and making an honest living.
I have two answers to this, based on the Dati Leumi understanding, and based on the charedi understanding.
For the Dati Leumi approach, you pasken that there is a milchemes mitzva going on, which is mechayev all Jews around the world to fight the Arabs (yes, even in America). However, I am a levi, and in the eternal words of the Rambam, I am seperated for avodah, and am therefore not mechayev in war (on the flipside, i cannot land in Eretz Yisrael). Hence me not in the army.
And according to one of the charedi approaches, there is no halachik war (see Rambam sefer hamitvos on milchama), so there is no problem with me not being in the army! (The fact that charedim who take this view learn and daven is more of a kind gesture and feeling of helping out those is danger, rather than due to a chiyuv of helping with the war).
1) you don’t need to answer for the DL approach. They are actually out there fighting and putting their beliefs into practice. Just look at what they are doing rather than be hypothetical.
2) if Haredim don’t think this is a Milchemes Mitzvah then they shouldn’t be upset that they won’t get any money from the wartime budget. Since their participation is only a “kind gesture”.
Bingo.
Its not a stiroh. Whilst the charedim are not mechayev in milchama, and the Torah learbing is nkt due to a chiyuv milchama, they are lema'aseh helping with the war effort, and therefore want Torah learning to be on the war budget.
Also, I applaud all the Dati Leumi who are consistent with their halachik world view. My main problem is with slifkin who claim to have the same worldview, yet doesn't act on it.
Whether shevet Levi is drafted is a major machlokes, see the discussion about a kohen and a yefas toar.
As with everything in Jewish law, it is subject to machlokes. I am ware that it may seems weird.
However, the Rambam paskens it as halacha lemaisah, making it a valid psak din. Very few, if any subsequent halacha sefer mefurash argue with it (they do question it, but leave it as a valid psak).
The Rambam does NOT pasken that you need a king.
What Halacha Sefer that came after the Rambam discussed the galoshes of war? What are you talking about?
The Rambam in the hakdama minyan hamitzvos clearly states that a milchama can only be done with a king, sanhedrin and Cohen gadol (page 202 in the shabsie frenkel sefer hamitzvos).
לוי is not exempt from מלחמת מצווה. Maybe רשות.
The Rambam seems to make it very clear that a levi is patur from milchama. He isn't mechalek between reshus or mitzva. He also gives a reason for this exemption; because a levi is set aside from the rest of clal Yisrael for avodas hashem, and is therefore not allowed to be used for other matters, e.g. fighting wars.
Based on this reasoning, there shouldn't be a reason to be mechalek between milchamos.
On the flipside, it's the same reason why levi'im are unable to inherit land in Israel, because they are speretaed for service to God, and not for landownership (see rambam hilchos shmita veyovel 13:12).
@Uri,
Because, if I might characterize most pious unwilling-to-serve Chareidim, I wouldn’t label them as religious, rather more like gutless wimps.
What’s wrong with criticising a large fraction of the citizenry who refuse to defend their country with their lives in contrast to chilonim, Druze and a few thousand truly religious Jews?
It's more than a few thousand truly religious Jews: I've seen an estimate that 45% of the casualties in the current conflict are from the religious Zionist community.
I would like to remind you that firstly, Arabs and University students also have such exemptions, why aren't you calling on them tl joom the army?
Secondly, there is nothing innately religious or unreligous about currently serving in the army. There is no halachik milchama going on (see Rambam in sefer hamitzvos on milchama), and it is therefore unnecessarily risking your life, which is assur (and don't bring in rodef because its something which is currently able to be done by other people). Therefore, the charedi rabbis have pskened that one should not join the army.
I understand that the Dati Leumi poskim argue on this (with some even straight out saying that the Israeli government can somehow take the place of a sanhedrin???), but at the end of the day, the charedi position is well founded in halacha, and is therefore slanderous to call it 'unreligious'.
The charedim, however, recognise that learning Torah and tefilah, based on numerous ma'morie chazal, can save Jewish lives, irrespective of an official classification of milchama. They therefore do what they can to help, without physically or spiritually putting themselves in danger.
Finally, I'd like to remind you that in 1948, when the Arabs were a legitimate risk to life in the charedi yishuvim, the Frum people took up arms and fought to protect themselves (famously, R Chaim Kanievsky took up a firearm to force the Arabs out of the yishiv). But this seemed to only occur once there was legitimate din Rodef on the Arabs.
What university exemption? The start of the semester was delayed for the war. Most of the Arab sector is exempt for obvious reasons and no one including the IDF wants to change that. https://www.timesofisrael.com/universities-still-set-to-start-december-31-but-reservists-to-have-staggered-return/
That's not the point. I understand that people don't want Arabs in the IDF, but if the problem is lack of manpower, surely we should get Arabs to fight as well? Why are you only preying on the charedim?
Charedim are Jews and don’t have the problem that Arabs have. The Druze Arabs who don’t have this problem are already have mandatory service. So this is already done.
You haven't explained to me why this supposed disposition Arab have should exempt them from the army, especially with a manpower shortage.
Did your rosh yeshiva get back to you?
תדמיין תרחיש, שבו גולדקנופף רמטכ"ל, אלוף צפון מר גפני, ואלוף דרום מר ליצמן, וגם 95 אחוז מתתי האלופים הם פרוש ומקלב וכן הלאה,
הצבא "בגדול" חרדי ודמוקרטי ויש חופש למי שלא רוצה דת, אבל מפעם לפעם שומעים על שמחייבים בפקודה לחיילים החילונים להשתתף בשיעור תורה מהרב זילברשטיין, וגם יש חיוב על הנחת תפילין ותפילה לכה"פ פעם ביום,
בנוסף יש הרבה הורים שמתלוננים על כך שהילדים חזרו מהצבא ערבדקים ועם שטריימל ועושים להם את המוות להוציא את הטלוויזיה מהבית וגם שגעו אותם עם כשרויות בבית, עד שלא נשאר להם ברירה והעיפו את הבן שלהם מהבית,
במצב כזה, כמה חילונים היו שולחים את הילדים שלהם לצבא? ומה הם היו עושים כדי לא להכריח אותם לשלוח ?
זה המצב כיום אבל בדיוק הפוך, ע"ע שירת נשים בצבא, הורדת זקנים וכולי, ולא יעזור "פלוגות חרדיות" כל זמן שהמצב מכל הבחינות חילונית, אז מה שנשאר לחרדים הוא לנסות לעזור מבחוץ כמה שרק אפשר ובמה שרק אפשר ואין אפשרות יותר,
והשאלה הטיפשית מה יהיה אם החרדים יהיו רוב במדינה? אז באמת יהיה פלוס מינוס התרחיש שכתבתי, ואז לא תראו כמעט חילונים בצבא...
מניסיוני הקטן כל פעם שהצגתי תרחיש כזה לחילוני הוא מיד התקפל עם הבנה אמיתית למגזר, הלוואי שזה יעזור משהו, האנטישמיות היהודית ה"י בעקבות זה נורא ואיום.
Natan, do you have that gun license yet? Because I'd be wary of organizing your phalange online.
Well, the poster clearly says that the mother can't sleep because her Moishe may become a chiloni in the army, not because he may die. Slifkin continues with his incitement.
Yakov, that was my whole point.
"Incitement"? That's a gross exaggeration.
In his speech, he actually uses the term in both ways, both the literal and the metaphorical:
ויהיה מסירות נפש. מקווה שלא נגיע לזה. אבל יכול להיות מאוד שנגיע למסירות נפש שנצטרך לעמוד נגדם. וזה עכשיו לא הזמן לפרט".
[...]
: "אבל דבר אחד ברור, שהדבר הראשון שצריך בזמן הזה שיהיה מסירות נפש ביחס לתורה עצמה
ללמוד תורה במסירות נפש
The drush use of "killing yourself" for Torah is already found explicitly in the Talmud:
אדם כי ימות באוהל, עד שממית עצמו עליה
As an aside, I was intrigued by his chareidi Hebrew with an American accent
You may also be intrigued by the fact that he's lived here for around 56 years but has not taken up Israeli citizenship... Unfortunately being American doesn't appear to mean more moderate here...
@KC,
This format is awful.
Who are you responding to and who is not an Israeli citizen?
Often quite the opposite....