I'm not really getting involved in the actual bill right now, but being that Tisha B'Av we mourn the loss of השראת השכינה in this world, and מיום שחרב כו' אין להקב"ה בעולמו אלא ד"א של הלכה because that is where the שכינה rests now, it is quite the time of year to appreciate לימוד התורה באמת! Just saying...
"They want only charedi young men to receive these exemptions and benefits (and they prefer not to address how the growing numbers of such people will indeed threaten the economy and national security)."
Your arguments aren't new, and neither are the responses.
"To be more accurate and less slanted I would rephrase this as follows:
"They want an army, but they demand that it not be used as a cynical tool for breaking down the basic values of their community and that the government/army show a genuine willingness to fully accept their religious standards and norms."
If these demands and norms (even when factoring out full-time learning) makes army service impractical, whose fault is that?
The only reason they are demanding financial support and encouraging mass long-term kollel is because you cannot legally work without first serving in the army--an army which is designed to make you conform to IDF mentality, obey the whims of secular commanding officers, and break down your religious values and sensitivities.
The fact that the Dati-Leumi community has made peace with such an environment is not a source of pride to them. That is the true chillul Hashem--sacrificing religious standards and values under pressure. To the extent that Dati-Leumi solders are jailed or discharged [without benefits] for insisting on serious commitment to halacha is where they make a genuine kiddush Hashem. The Chareidim are doing the same thing--only before entering the army.
It is the height of intolerance to fault the chareidim for insisting on remaining chareidim. Chareidim are more than willing to go to work and make a financial, military, etc. contribution to society--but on their terms and in ways that do not undermine their identity."
It's a culture war; if they would come to any sort of middle, even a little bit, the left will push for a bit more moderation and a bit more and a bit more. The only way to keep the system as is is to keep the system as is. And so the fight continues...
As Rabbi Berel Wien says, "If the Israeli government would understand the history of all those who attacked religion, they'd understand the Chareidi reaction. (This was in regard to pushing secular curriculum) They should learn from other's mistakes that when you force Chareidim one way, they force back - But they didn't come to hear my lecture..."
Change the word supportive to tolerant and all modern (in spirit, not in chronology) countries are.
Or keep the word supportive and name another modern (again in spirit, not in chronology) country with as much antagonism (alongside the supportiveness) as it .
It took me time to even understand what you were asking. I don't know why you are bringing in other countries since in other countries there is no struggle of "mi hu yehudi". I was not complaining about how the state is, but when things started it was head on war. While things have calmed down, the people trying to acculturate chareidim with things such as army quota and educational standards are individuals that do not have the religious best intentions and are not doing it properly. In America no-one was down anyone's back and therefore the frum contributes to the economy on a much higher level.
Your tenacity is an inspiration to me. You've been regurgitating the same things over and over again for many years, without tire. I've been following you for just around a year now, and am completely fed up and bored of seeing the same topics over and over again, just taking on slightly different forms. I can't even bring myself to get involved and fight about the same topics ad nauseum anymore. At least for now.
Anyhow, you're wrong about this. See the Gemara in Bava Basra daf 8-9, and that's how is paskened in Shulchan Aruch.
The Gemara there is not applicable. Those who detest and want to overthrow a city’s wealth, safety and organization, leaving it exposed to murderous outsiders, are hardly like those who disburse charity.
Irrelevant to *what?* What's your argument exactly? That all populations need to serve equally? In combat units? That's not remotely the case anyhow, even putting aside charedim.
Correct! We don't want to give in at all! Because you will always ask for more. As always, the liberals are all too happy to demolish the metsys (backwards system) entirely, piece by piece, because the system is something they absolutely don't care for (or get). Actually they *hate* the system (more than anything else) and have a mission to tear down the evil patriarchy.
Despite the issues, the conservatives care about the system (more than anything else) and will work mighty hard to preserve it, even it means being a bit extreme. If there were no liberals trying to tear things down, perhaps we could be more moderate, but in the current climate - absolutely not!
I gotta say, making such a fuss over this - you're a political strategist's dream. When a party proposes a bill for the first time, they deliberately inflate it, hoping to provoke outrage and panic from the party out of power. Lawyers write scary write-ups, hoping to lure clients. Lobbyists use it for fund-raising letters. Politicians use it for stump speeches. And when the party itself eventually cuts a few items, and modifies a few others, the bill looks palatable by comparison, and they can claim to be conciliatory and centrist. I mean - don't you know how politics works?
If that's the argument, it's a ridiculous one. The only ones who are going to hate charedim for a proposed law which doesn't go anywhere are people who hate them already.
Those who can't stand us hate us already anyways. And we are doing what we are doing and believe what we believe anyways - why not just make it official!
I can't imagine this proposal getting too far, but pushing for the extreme and backpedaling is a great political tactic...
I want more true עבודת השם in this world, nothing else. This bill will probably get more of that. If things are too complicated politically, or if this will cause some civil war or something like that and it will such lead to less עבודת השם, I don't want it. I'm also not so sure that we should do this without making certain learning bars mandatory which will bring more true עבודת השם as well. But I'll leave it to the גדולים to decide what will bring more עבודת השם - they are on the same mission as me and are more politically and communally aware than me.
Noson stated, "Learning Torah (by which they actually mean learning Gemara) is not automatically a service to either the state or the nation. It is a service to oneself, not to society." Sounds identical to Chazal Sanhedrin 99b, אפיקורוס כגון מאן? ־ אמר רב יוסף: כגון הני דאמרי מאי אהנו לן רבנן? לדידהו קרו, לדידהו תנו.
Would that be the same Rabbeinu Yona who says that while Torah scholars are exempt from certain taxes, nevertheless if they are physically capable of work then it is prohibited for them to reap financial gain from Torah? (Commentary to Avos 4:7)
Indeed the same R'Yonah, and this does nothing to refute my point, because
as you must know, Kesef Mishna- written by Rav Yosef Karo- author of Shulchan Oruch- explicitly writes than NOWADAYS even Rambam (And hence R'Yonah as well) AGREES it's permitted for all Torah learners to receive payment.
But YOU have no source WHATSOEVER to defend the apikorsus of saying 'Torah learners do not contribute to society'.......
Again: The Gemara says Rabbanan. The fact that some scholars may interpret it differently does not remove the straightforward meaning.
Meanwhile, has it occurred to you that Rambam might well disagree with what R. Karo claimed he would have later changed his mind about?
Has it occurred to you that by same logic you are employing, it is actually even more likely that NOWADAYS even R. Karo would say that mass kollel is wrong?
Has it occurred to you that you are Ashkenazi, and Rema presents accepting money for learning as a minority yesh omrim?
David Oshie, while in general I want people to use their real names, in your case I'm going to have to insist that you use a pseudonym, it's just too confusing to have a David Ohsie and a David Oshie.
Aside from the fact that the word used is Rabbanan, it does not make sense to interpret the Gemara otherwise. How does someone who just learns benefit society? The only way to explain it is to invoke mystical benefits. But the Rishonim all describe the goals and benefits of Torah study in terms of its instructional and educational value. They make no mention of mystical energies created by Torah study. And the Gemara brings a proof based on the idea of these people having personal merit, not based on mystical energies.
The part that bothered me was seeing this proposal the morning after the knesset bill passed. That was a really bad tactic.
On the other hand, people seem to be disgusting to each other all year round, and suddenly, the week of tisha baav, people complain about it because of tisha baav, as if to ignore the behaviour all year round and to expect normal behaviour that week. I say leave tisha baav out of these discussions
True - we should always want to he tzadikim. But that’s easier said than done… so, in Elul and aseret yimei teshuva we try to improve ourselves. On Tisha B’Av we try to incorporate the lessons of this z’man into our lives as well. If not now, when will we?
Not many have noticed that the latest actions of UTJ are not a continuation of old policies, but is in a fact a silent revolution. UTJ's participation in the illegitimate Zionist gov't has always been limited. By passing a basic laws, i.e. constitutional acts that define the ממשלת הזדון which is forbidden to exist before the messianic era, they have transformed themselves into Zionists.
Such actions may appear to serve short-term narrow expedient interests and no doubt the Charedi press will soon be filled with all sorts of double talk, denying that participating in defining a country's constitution is a nationalist act. But it will be too late. No amount of denials will negate the fact that UTJ have become full participants in Zionist governance.
There are implications of becoming willing participants of the State. Like defending it.
As I wrote, "UTJ's participation in the illegitimate Zionist gov't has always been limited". Satmar, on the other hand won't even vote.
Hence the whole "deputy minister" nonsense. Hence J. Rosenblum's claim that UTJ won't cast a decisive vote on matters of security. UTJ's participation in the gov't was always about defending certain interests, and not about providing legitimacy for the Jewish State. By passing a basic law, one that defines the State- they have moved away from the policy of limited participation.
I largely agree, though it really depends which faction of UTJ. But the trend does seem to be towards a sort of détente, and possibly a partial embrace.
This is an incredibly prescient article from 2000. Written by Moshe Koppel, who as it happens, is the founder of Kohelet think tank, which is the brains behind the judicial overhaul....
I was referring to the statement that a state is forbidden before Moshiach. UTJ do not follow authorities that held so. I know about the 3 oaths but its not in Shulchan Aruch and there are 10 answers to that. The Chareidi position is not to sacrifice torah for it but not that it is essentially assur. I am not interested in going down this rabbit hole but I don't like when people make it sound like Satmar is mainstream on this issue.
"אני שרתתי במחנה, שלוש שנים בצה"ל. כל מי שרוצה לדעת מה עשיתי בצבא שייסע לארכיון במחנה, יסתכל מה עשיתי בצה"ל ואחרי זה עשיתי מילואים - שם פגשתי את אשתי", אמר לפיד.
Everything you said is true of course. But at the end of the day best to just accept it, be thankful you are not like them, and be proud of your own community. They were never going to and will never go to the army. Any pathway to an exemption leads to faster integration into the workforce which is the real need.
Rambam had a very extreme view, being against even those who teach Torah from taking a salary. But certainly the normative view among Chazal and the Rishonim was very far from charedi norms today.
Would you kindly change to using either your real name or a pseudonym that doesn’t get confused with my real name. Or some combination thereof? I’d really appreciate it and probably you don’t want my statements confused for yours either.
And Kesef Mishnah (R' Y' Karo author of Shulchan Oruch) on that Rambam- SPELLS IT ALL OUT- that even Rambam would agree nowadays it's prefectly permissable for Torah learners to pe paid. Yawn.... The amhoratzus of some people on this blog is astounding......
Rabbi Slifkin writes: "Learning Torah (by which they actually mean learning Gemara) is not automatically a service to either the state or the nation. It is a service to oneself, not to society."
I would urge the author (and all readers) to see Shaarey Teshuvah of Rabeynu Yonah 145 where he states that 'anyone who says Torah learners are not benefitting society are 'megaleh ponim B'Torah' and have no portion in the world to come'......
The comments on this group are exactly the reason why Jewish American youth’s indifference towards Israel is large and growing. You ultra orthodox and religious Zionists are racist, misogynistic, fundamentalist anti-science, anti-liberal democratic autocrats. You side with so called Jews who wish the Holocaust killed all the Ashkenazi. Keep it up and only the evangelicals will support you and not even your own people. You are all just repeating the baseless hatred of what destroyed Jerusalem and the temple the last time. בושה
That's a whole lot you're saying. But to address only Jewish American youth’s indifference towards Israel, it is a very different type of creature, virtually an opposite one, than Chareidi anti-zionism. Chareidi anti-zionism rails that Israel and zionism aren't Jewish/parochial enough; while unaffiliated Jews indifferent to Israel and zionism think that they are too parochial.
A practical difference is when secular Israelis experience pain. Chareidim relate to it as if it happened to their own brother (such as Rav Shach's reaction to the deadly collision of two helicopters over a north Israeli cemetery which killed dozens, as witnessed and reported by Rabbi Aryeh Zev Ginzberg, rabbi of Chofetz Chaim Torah Center) whereas for the unaffiliated they'd more closely associate it as happening to absolute strangers or worse.
If those American youth would somehow come under the influence of those Chareidim, with other things going on their lives besides a negativity to the Medina, their hearts would come closer to their brothers in Israel.
Pass a UBI and have the government take over direct payments of all welfare benefits to the students. When they don't have to be in fear of the Roshei Yeshivot and Rosh Kollelim cutting off support; I think many will vote with their feet and leave a lifestyle which is unfulfilling for many of them.
You obviously are unaware of how and why people vote for UTJ. Such a plan will not work on even one person. They vote with their beliefs, right or wrong. Anyone who disagrees does what he wants.
Rami, you have no idea of what you are talking about. Furthermore, when the Rambam decried people who shnorr in order to learn instead of getting a parnasa, he wasn't referring to our Kollel system in which the Kollel collects from people who want to support Torah learning and then the members of the Kollel are paid by the Kollel. The Kollel system is an expansion of the Yissachar-Zevulon paradigm that everyone agrees is highly praiseworthy. the Rambam is talking about people who spend their time going door to door to collect instead of using that same time and effort to engage in a parnasa. Baba Basra 110a לעולם ישכיר אדם עצמו לע״ז ואל יצטרך לבריות. והוא סבר: לע״ז ממשֹ ולא היא, אלא ע״ז ־ עבודה שזרה לו, כדאמר ליה רב לרב כהנא: נטוש נבילתא בשוקא ושקול אגרא, ולא תימא גברא רבא אנא וזילא בי מילתא
The modern kollel system is fundamentally different from the Yissachar/Zevulun paradigm as presented by Chazal and the Rishonim. The tribe of Yissachar WORKED. And they weren't just learning Torah - they were TEACHING Torah. See https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-they-didnt-teach-you-in-yeshiva
You speak narishkeit, what are "government funds"? Taxes paid by the people. The government is only the gabbai to distribute it. Indeed, there are secular Israelis who would never want a grush of their money supporting Torah (any form of Torah education). But B"H due to politics, at least some of the taxes goes toward beneficial Torah programs, despite the stupidity and reticence of some Israelis. ALL Klal Yisroel benefits, and I would posit that without the plethora of Torah learning in Israel, it would have collapsed as a country a long time ago (despite what Jesus Slifkin claims).
What about the Arabs? And the non-Jewish Russians? Are they part of this too? Yissochor-Vladimir-Mansour-Zevulon arrangement. Sounds like a plot for a book....
The US didn't draft Japanese Americans to go to the pacific to fight other Japanese. You don't draft Arabs to go fight their own people. But maybe they could do public service instead. Why don't Charedi do pubic service? Why do they get to do nothing but read books all day and get paid by other Israelis who make real sacrifices?
Actually there was a company of Japanese-American soldiers that fought the Nazis in Europe.
I don’t know. If y’all don’t want to contribute to the military, why doesn’t your government create a program like Vista here is the US that y’all can serve your country in. Help the poor, plant trees, volunteer for stuff for the same amount of time that secular kids serve in the armed forces??
If ultra orthodox get to get paid for studying Torah all day and be exempt from public service, why not Jews of liberal branches? I’m sure many would take advantage of that. What about paying Arab citizens for studying the Quran all day? Let’s pay them too. Bunch of entitled Karens
I don't think that fits with the Rambam at all, that is still called מטיל עצמו על הציבור. There are many views other than the Rambam who we can follow in this. Rav Moshe Feinstein clearly said we don't follow the Rambam in this, and rely on others since it is necessary for the survival of our nation. (I agree that the numbers are much greater today and things may be different) For the main talk on this, se back and forth between מכרכר and Rabbi Slifkin from about six months ago.
You clearly don't know what you are talking about. I assume you never learned the Rambam at the end of Hilchos Shmita V'yovel. Those who argued on the Rambam ad locum like the Kesef Mishne (Bais Yosef) probably did so with the understanding that some ignorant people learning the Rambam may misconstrue the Rambam's intentions as you have.
I learnt that Rambam 200 times and that has nothing to do with anything. יזכה לדבר המספיק לו does not mean you can get everything from being supported by the community. Case in point, the Rambam himself was supported by his brother but when that fell through he did not accept support from the community and worked. Rav Moshe knew what he was talking about, and he said we do not follow the Rambam. To try Kvetching the Rambam in avos to what he says in Shmitta veyovel needs a lot more work than what you wrote above.
Left wingers in Israel spent the past five months blocking traffic and disrupting society over a simple adjustment necessary to bring the judiciary in line with the rest of the civilized world. Unwilling to accept the reality that their sun has set, this segment of Israel hasn't won an election in more than a generation, and even then they could only squeak in with Arab support. And when they were in, they passed reckless, irreversible legislation over the passionate screams of hundreds of thousands of protesters (dwarfing anything we've seen recently) and they couldn't have cared less. This is, today, a minority cohort that did some good things (along with some terrible things) a hundred years ago in laying the infrastructure of the state, but have been in slow decline since the 1980s, till reaching their present critically endangered status. Their attitude toward their own religion has ranged from outright hostility to a begrudging and insincere "tolerance" when it proved expedient.
So you can see why the right isn't all that concerned about a shrinking group of irresponsible hypocrites who already hate them anyway.
Wow there's so much that horrendous in what you just said that I hardly know where to start. "Squeak in with Arab support?" You obviously don't think that Arabs are citizens whose votes should mean anything. Only Jews can be citizens, right. Most human beings would find that abhorrent. Next, let’s compare how Israel chooses its judges compared to the US. In the US, the president chooses the judges but the judges have to be approved by the senate. The senate majority may or may not be the same party as the president and when it’s not,, the president has to compromise with the other party (theoretically) to fill that vacancy. In Israel, the prime minister picks the judges and the Knesset is ALWAYS the party (coalition) of the prime minister, so if Israel didn't have the system it has, there would be no check on who the PM could pick, ever. In Israel, the professional org (Bar Association) and other judges are part of a non-partisan selection committee that selects qualified ethically and morally (usually) upstanding people who the PM can select from. Often times here in the US we get people whom our Bar Association say are unqualified get selected because they are political favors or for ideological reasons. I'd take some measure of Israel's process here in a minute.
"In Israel, the professional org (Bar Association) and other judges are part of a non-partisan selection committee that selects qualified ethically and morally (usually) upstanding people who the PM can select from."
LOL, Mr Edelstein. As Minister Dudi Amsalem sarcastically suggested, why bother having laws at all, when the enlightened and ethical sages on the Supreme Court can simply hand down their oracular pronouncements.
It turns out that the benighted voters keep voting for the wrong parties. The nerve of them!
"I'd take some measure of Israel's process here in a minute."
If John Roberts suggested that he and Clarence Thomas should get a say over whom Biden nominated to replace Stephen Breyer, he'd be laughed out of the building.
By the way, Justice Minister Yariv Levin actually quoted Bernie Sanders.
"In my view, if right-wing Supreme Court justices want to make public policy they should quit the Supreme Court and run for political office. Frankly, I do not think their extremist views will gain much traction with the average American voter."
Levin then joked that he was waiting for all the condemnation to pour in about the horrors of Bernie Sanders attacking the sacred court, the way there is in Israel when Levin has the temerity to speak out against the High Court's self granted powers.
A country that has no checks and balances to protect minorities civil and human rights from the excesses of the majority, is not a modern democracy, it’s an authoritarian state.
Our country has a legislature that separate from the executive branch. Your country has no such thing. The only check on government power is the court.
“All too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will must be REASONABLE; that the minority possess their equal rights, which EQUAL law MUST protect, and to violate would be oppression.”
You're just making stuff up. Israel is a parliamentary democracy. It was before 1992, is now, and will remain so after these reforms, G-d willing, pass. The courts don't get to foist their best practices for democracy on the branches which are actually accountable to the public.
"The constitution, on this hypothesis, is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please. It should be remembered, as an axiom of eternal truth in politics, that whatever power in any government is independent, is absolute also; in theory only, at first, while the spirit of the people is up, but in practice, as fast as that relaxes. Independence can be trusted nowhere but with the people in mass. They are inherently independent of all but moral law."
And to think, Israel may devolve into civil war because some lazy assed unpatriotic men who want to shirk their responsibilities to their families and their country want to keep having big government support their families and other real MEN protect their cowardly asses from armies and terrorists. I’ve never taken welfare on my worst day nor did I shirk my responsibility to serve in my country’s armed forces. I don’t know how you fkers can look at yourselves in the mirror.
My Jefferson quote demonstrated that even TJ knew that the majority can be unjust towards minorities even as he was angry at Marshall for Madison vs Marbury. That’s way it was included. If you’d like a quote regarding the judiciary from the founding fathers of MY country…
“There is no Liberty if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers. And it proves in the last place, that as Liberty can have nothing to fear from the judiciary alone, but would have everything to fear from its union with either of the other departments.”
Alexander Hamilton
“The interpretation of the law is the proper and peculiar Provence of the courts.”
Alexander Hamilton
I’ve personally always loved and defended Israel from the haters. This latest theocratic and fascist government has made that much harder to do. And after having such wonderful conversations with people like you here, it’s no wonder such a large and growing percentage of young American Jews just don’t give a shit about it anymore. The only American allies you’ll soon have are evangelicals but you’ll push them away because you want to pass laws stoping them from proselytizing, plus all the hatred and spitting they experience on the streets of Israel from right wing religious fanatics such as you.
What gives me hope is all the people in Israel protesting against you.
May your country soon overcome you bigots, and soon
"And to think, Israel may devolve into civil war because some lazy assed unpatriotic men who want to shirk their responsibilities to their families and their country"
You really really don't have a clue. Once again, the push to overhaul the judiciary isn't being led by the charedim.
"other real MEN protect their cowardly asses"
Tell me more about your MANHOOD, you testosterone fueled macho superhero.
“The interpretation of the law is the proper and peculiar Provence of the courts.”
Alexander Hamilton"
Yeah, least dangerous branch and all that. Except that in Israel, the judges have unilaterally decided that there's a constitution and it means whatever they say it does.
I'm not really getting involved in the actual bill right now, but being that Tisha B'Av we mourn the loss of השראת השכינה in this world, and מיום שחרב כו' אין להקב"ה בעולמו אלא ד"א של הלכה because that is where the שכינה rests now, it is quite the time of year to appreciate לימוד התורה באמת! Just saying...
You inspired my latest post. Thank you.
Always ready to inspire others!
"They want only charedi young men to receive these exemptions and benefits (and they prefer not to address how the growing numbers of such people will indeed threaten the economy and national security)."
Your arguments aren't new, and neither are the responses.
http://slifkinchallenge.blogspot.com/2014/03/refusing-to-serve-in-ideologically.html
"To be more accurate and less slanted I would rephrase this as follows:
"They want an army, but they demand that it not be used as a cynical tool for breaking down the basic values of their community and that the government/army show a genuine willingness to fully accept their religious standards and norms."
If these demands and norms (even when factoring out full-time learning) makes army service impractical, whose fault is that?
The only reason they are demanding financial support and encouraging mass long-term kollel is because you cannot legally work without first serving in the army--an army which is designed to make you conform to IDF mentality, obey the whims of secular commanding officers, and break down your religious values and sensitivities.
The fact that the Dati-Leumi community has made peace with such an environment is not a source of pride to them. That is the true chillul Hashem--sacrificing religious standards and values under pressure. To the extent that Dati-Leumi solders are jailed or discharged [without benefits] for insisting on serious commitment to halacha is where they make a genuine kiddush Hashem. The Chareidim are doing the same thing--only before entering the army.
It is the height of intolerance to fault the chareidim for insisting on remaining chareidim. Chareidim are more than willing to go to work and make a financial, military, etc. contribution to society--but on their terms and in ways that do not undermine their identity."
What a bunch of hooey. They've never shown the slightest interest in working out such a thing.
It's a culture war; if they would come to any sort of middle, even a little bit, the left will push for a bit more moderation and a bit more and a bit more. The only way to keep the system as is is to keep the system as is. And so the fight continues...
As Rabbi Berel Wien says, "If the Israeli government would understand the history of all those who attacked religion, they'd understand the Chareidi reaction. (This was in regard to pushing secular curriculum) They should learn from other's mistakes that when you force Chareidim one way, they force back - But they didn't come to hear my lecture..."
Name another country in history that's been as supportive of the Charedi lifestyle. Where do you people come up with this nonsense
Change the word supportive to tolerant and all modern (in spirit, not in chronology) countries are.
Or keep the word supportive and name another modern (again in spirit, not in chronology) country with as much antagonism (alongside the supportiveness) as it .
See also here
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/pure-gold/comment/18541418
It took me time to even understand what you were asking. I don't know why you are bringing in other countries since in other countries there is no struggle of "mi hu yehudi". I was not complaining about how the state is, but when things started it was head on war. While things have calmed down, the people trying to acculturate chareidim with things such as army quota and educational standards are individuals that do not have the religious best intentions and are not doing it properly. In America no-one was down anyone's back and therefore the frum contributes to the economy on a much higher level.
America does not confront existential threats of total annihilation.
Your tenacity is an inspiration to me. You've been regurgitating the same things over and over again for many years, without tire. I've been following you for just around a year now, and am completely fed up and bored of seeing the same topics over and over again, just taking on slightly different forms. I can't even bring myself to get involved and fight about the same topics ad nauseum anymore. At least for now.
Anyhow, you're wrong about this. See the Gemara in Bava Basra daf 8-9, and that's how is paskened in Shulchan Aruch.
The Gemara there is not applicable. Those who detest and want to overthrow a city’s wealth, safety and organization, leaving it exposed to murderous outsiders, are hardly like those who disburse charity.
Find out if there's anyone for them to talk to.
Not sure who 'they' are exactly.
https://www.kikar.co.il/haredim-news/201372
Nachal Charedi is for a small number of charedi total drop-outs.
Your problem is that charedim don't serve? Or that that the non-dropouts don't?
Charedim don't serve, as a matter of policy and as a matter of practice. A tiny number of dropouts is irrelevant.
Irrelevant to *what?* What's your argument exactly? That all populations need to serve equally? In combat units? That's not remotely the case anyhow, even putting aside charedim.
One big non-sequitor. The argument here was that UTJ's proposal would increase hatred towards 'all religious Jews and to Torah itself,".
You have defending the law, but you haven't addressed the issue of hatred.
He hasn't defended the law. His claim that charedim actually want to work out an arrangement whereby they contribute is just utter nonsense.
Correct! We don't want to give in at all! Because you will always ask for more. As always, the liberals are all too happy to demolish the metsys (backwards system) entirely, piece by piece, because the system is something they absolutely don't care for (or get). Actually they *hate* the system (more than anything else) and have a mission to tear down the evil patriarchy.
Despite the issues, the conservatives care about the system (more than anything else) and will work mighty hard to preserve it, even it means being a bit extreme. If there were no liberals trying to tear things down, perhaps we could be more moderate, but in the current climate - absolutely not!
I gotta say, making such a fuss over this - you're a political strategist's dream. When a party proposes a bill for the first time, they deliberately inflate it, hoping to provoke outrage and panic from the party out of power. Lawyers write scary write-ups, hoping to lure clients. Lobbyists use it for fund-raising letters. Politicians use it for stump speeches. And when the party itself eventually cuts a few items, and modifies a few others, the bill looks palatable by comparison, and they can claim to be conciliatory and centrist. I mean - don't you know how politics works?
If that's the argument, it's a ridiculous one. The only ones who are going to hate charedim for a proposed law which doesn't go anywhere are people who hate them already.
The big problem with the ensuing hatred is that it is not חינם.
You're right it's worse than חנם, it's hating the people who stand for God
Any chance you could use your real name to avoid confusion?
If that is how you define חינם there was never such a case. People always had a reason to hate, just not a good enough one.
Very well said, Rabbi. Thank you for clarifying this issue that is so vital to Israel and the diaspora.
Those who can't stand us hate us already anyways. And we are doing what we are doing and believe what we believe anyways - why not just make it official!
I can't imagine this proposal getting too far, but pushing for the extreme and backpedaling is a great political tactic...
Wait. Do you believe in this proposal or not?
I want more true עבודת השם in this world, nothing else. This bill will probably get more of that. If things are too complicated politically, or if this will cause some civil war or something like that and it will such lead to less עבודת השם, I don't want it. I'm also not so sure that we should do this without making certain learning bars mandatory which will bring more true עבודת השם as well. But I'll leave it to the גדולים to decide what will bring more עבודת השם - they are on the same mission as me and are more politically and communally aware than me.
Noson stated, "Learning Torah (by which they actually mean learning Gemara) is not automatically a service to either the state or the nation. It is a service to oneself, not to society." Sounds identical to Chazal Sanhedrin 99b, אפיקורוס כגון מאן? ־ אמר רב יוסף: כגון הני דאמרי מאי אהנו לן רבנן? לדידהו קרו, לדידהו תנו.
You missed the crucial word in that Gemara - רבנן
Actually you are wrong. Rabeynu Yona 145 states explicitly this refers to Torah LEARNERS- NOT rabbis.
Not worth losing your olam haboh for........
Would that be the same Rabbeinu Yona who says that while Torah scholars are exempt from certain taxes, nevertheless if they are physically capable of work then it is prohibited for them to reap financial gain from Torah? (Commentary to Avos 4:7)
Indeed the same R'Yonah, and this does nothing to refute my point, because
as you must know, Kesef Mishna- written by Rav Yosef Karo- author of Shulchan Oruch- explicitly writes than NOWADAYS even Rambam (And hence R'Yonah as well) AGREES it's permitted for all Torah learners to receive payment.
But YOU have no source WHATSOEVER to defend the apikorsus of saying 'Torah learners do not contribute to society'.......
Again: The Gemara says Rabbanan. The fact that some scholars may interpret it differently does not remove the straightforward meaning.
Meanwhile, has it occurred to you that Rambam might well disagree with what R. Karo claimed he would have later changed his mind about?
Has it occurred to you that by same logic you are employing, it is actually even more likely that NOWADAYS even R. Karo would say that mass kollel is wrong?
Has it occurred to you that you are Ashkenazi, and Rema presents accepting money for learning as a minority yesh omrim?
No sender zeyv, you just don't get it, that gemara is 'irrational' - this blog is about *rationalist* Judaism.
A gemara irrational? Have you lost your mind? That gemara is perfectly rational, except if you are a karai, a tzeduki or a Kusi.
I am being sarcastic and making fun of this blog
David Oshie, while in general I want people to use their real names, in your case I'm going to have to insist that you use a pseudonym, it's just too confusing to have a David Ohsie and a David Oshie.
K sorry
Yashar koach. You had me worried
The distinction is drawn be tween those who teach Torah, and those who just stam learn Torah.
Please read it again--or in English, "How do the rabbis help us? They learn for themselves..."
I.e., an Apikorus is one who makes such comments about people who, to use your words, just stam learn Torah.
"rabbis." not stam people who learn.
Where did you get the definition of רבנן as implied in your comment?
In the word "rabanan."
Where did you pull that from? I can understand that not everyone in the beis midrash is included but where is that distinction drawn from?
Aside from the fact that the word used is Rabbanan, it does not make sense to interpret the Gemara otherwise. How does someone who just learns benefit society? The only way to explain it is to invoke mystical benefits. But the Rishonim all describe the goals and benefits of Torah study in terms of its instructional and educational value. They make no mention of mystical energies created by Torah study. And the Gemara brings a proof based on the idea of these people having personal merit, not based on mystical energies.
The Gemara could have said, "Taldmei Chachomim." Instead, the Gemara said Rabanon, reserved for the gedolim.
"Rabanon" is *not* reserved for the gedolim. IIRC, it's reserved for the students.
Rubbish! See Shaarey Teshuvah 145- this gemoroh specifically refers to stam Torah learners- NOT rabbis.......
I looked at Shaarei Teshuva and he says nothing of the sort.
The part that bothered me was seeing this proposal the morning after the knesset bill passed. That was a really bad tactic.
On the other hand, people seem to be disgusting to each other all year round, and suddenly, the week of tisha baav, people complain about it because of tisha baav, as if to ignore the behaviour all year round and to expect normal behaviour that week. I say leave tisha baav out of these discussions
True - we should always want to he tzadikim. But that’s easier said than done… so, in Elul and aseret yimei teshuva we try to improve ourselves. On Tisha B’Av we try to incorporate the lessons of this z’man into our lives as well. If not now, when will we?
"That was a really bad tactic."
The Russians did it regularly and successfully. Read Truman's memoirs.
Not many have noticed that the latest actions of UTJ are not a continuation of old policies, but is in a fact a silent revolution. UTJ's participation in the illegitimate Zionist gov't has always been limited. By passing a basic laws, i.e. constitutional acts that define the ממשלת הזדון which is forbidden to exist before the messianic era, they have transformed themselves into Zionists.
Such actions may appear to serve short-term narrow expedient interests and no doubt the Charedi press will soon be filled with all sorts of double talk, denying that participating in defining a country's constitution is a nationalist act. But it will be too late. No amount of denials will negate the fact that UTJ have become full participants in Zionist governance.
There are implications of becoming willing participants of the State. Like defending it.
Are you Satmar? UTJ isn't.
As I wrote, "UTJ's participation in the illegitimate Zionist gov't has always been limited". Satmar, on the other hand won't even vote.
Hence the whole "deputy minister" nonsense. Hence J. Rosenblum's claim that UTJ won't cast a decisive vote on matters of security. UTJ's participation in the gov't was always about defending certain interests, and not about providing legitimacy for the Jewish State. By passing a basic law, one that defines the State- they have moved away from the policy of limited participation.
I largely agree, though it really depends which faction of UTJ. But the trend does seem to be towards a sort of détente, and possibly a partial embrace.
https://www.makorrishon.co.il/opinion/646641/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.19.2.264
This book from Benny Brown is a general overview of Charedi society.
https://www.amazon.com/Madrich-Hevra-ha-Haredit-Emunot-u-zramim/dp/9651326395
This is an incredibly prescient article from 2000. Written by Moshe Koppel, who as it happens, is the founder of Kohelet think tank, which is the brains behind the judicial overhaul....
https://u.cs.biu.ac.il/~koppel/mamlachtiut-english.pdf
I was referring to the statement that a state is forbidden before Moshiach. UTJ do not follow authorities that held so. I know about the 3 oaths but its not in Shulchan Aruch and there are 10 answers to that. The Chareidi position is not to sacrifice torah for it but not that it is essentially assur. I am not interested in going down this rabbit hole but I don't like when people make it sound like Satmar is mainstream on this issue.
Get back to us when Israel starts drafting ISRAELI Arabs.
Get back to us when Israel starts subsidizing (giving welfare checks) to Arabs for reading the Quran.
Yair Lapid got to be PM. His 'defense' of his country involved writing for a newspaper.
https://www.kipa.co.il/%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%98%D7%99/1144178-0/
"אני שרתתי במחנה, שלוש שנים בצה"ל. כל מי שרוצה לדעת מה עשיתי בצבא שייסע לארכיון במחנה, יסתכל מה עשיתי בצה"ל ואחרי זה עשיתי מילואים - שם פגשתי את אשתי", אמר לפיד.
Your are confusing mainstream Charedim with the Eidah Charedis.
You held of those implications before this development.
Everything you said is true of course. But at the end of the day best to just accept it, be thankful you are not like them, and be proud of your own community. They were never going to and will never go to the army. Any pathway to an exemption leads to faster integration into the workforce which is the real need.
Rambam (talmud torah 3:10) spells it all out
כָּל הַמֵּשִׂים עַל לִבּוֹ שֶׁיַּעֲסֹק בַּתּוֹרָה וְלֹא יַעֲשֶׂה מְלָאכָה, וְיִתְפַּרְנֵס מִן הַצְּדָקָה - הֲרֵי זֶה חִלֵּל אֶת הַשֵּׁם, וּבִזָּה אֶת הַתּוֹרָה, וְכִבָּה מְאוֹר הַדָּת, וְגָרַם רָעָה לְעַצְמוֹ, וְנָטַל חַיָּיו מִן הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, לְפִי שֶׁאָסוּר לֵהָנוֹת בְּדִבְרֵי תּוֹרָה בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה.
אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים: כָּל הַנֶּהֱנֶה מִדִּבְרֵי תּוֹרָה, נָטַל חַיָּיו מִן הָעוֹלָם. וְעוֹד צִוּוּ וְאָמְרוּ: לֹא תַּעֲשֵׂם עֲטָרָה לְהִתְגַּדֵּל בָּהֶן, וְלֹא קַרְדֹּם לַחְפֹּר בָּהֶן. וְעוֹד צִוּוּ וְאָמְרוּ: אֱהֹב אֶת הַמְּלָאכָה, וּשְׂנָא אֶת הָרַבָּנוּת; וְכָל תּוֹרָה שֶׁאֵין עִמָּהּ מְלָאכָה - סוֹפָהּ בְּטֵלָה. וְסוֹף אָדָם זֶה שֶׁיְּהֵא מְלַסְטֵס אֶת הַבְּרִיּוֹת.
Rambam had a very extreme view, being against even those who teach Torah from taking a salary. But certainly the normative view among Chazal and the Rishonim was very far from charedi norms today.
Rambam says the same in avos.
To be fair there are other views.
See Sh"t Rivush
More than that, there are those who explain the Rambam as allowing certain exceptions.
Right, and to quote one Rambam out of context is also not so acceptable. See for example Rambam Talmud Torah 1:12
? You talking to me?
No I'm agreeing with you.
To be clear, my name is Dovid Osher, my friends call me Oshie, not to be confused with kofer David Ohsie (notice the spelling difference)
Would you kindly change to using either your real name or a pseudonym that doesn’t get confused with my real name. Or some combination thereof? I’d really appreciate it and probably you don’t want my statements confused for yours either.
Fair, sorry.
You are addressing Yosef Hirsh?
And Kesef Mishnah (R' Y' Karo author of Shulchan Oruch) on that Rambam- SPELLS IT ALL OUT- that even Rambam would agree nowadays it's prefectly permissable for Torah learners to pe paid. Yawn.... The amhoratzus of some people on this blog is astounding......
Rabbi Slifkin writes: "Learning Torah (by which they actually mean learning Gemara) is not automatically a service to either the state or the nation. It is a service to oneself, not to society."
I would urge the author (and all readers) to see Shaarey Teshuvah of Rabeynu Yonah 145 where he states that 'anyone who says Torah learners are not benefitting society are 'megaleh ponim B'Torah' and have no portion in the world to come'......
You don't believe in Torah so you don't warrant a response.
The comments on this group are exactly the reason why Jewish American youth’s indifference towards Israel is large and growing. You ultra orthodox and religious Zionists are racist, misogynistic, fundamentalist anti-science, anti-liberal democratic autocrats. You side with so called Jews who wish the Holocaust killed all the Ashkenazi. Keep it up and only the evangelicals will support you and not even your own people. You are all just repeating the baseless hatred of what destroyed Jerusalem and the temple the last time. בושה
That's a whole lot you're saying. But to address only Jewish American youth’s indifference towards Israel, it is a very different type of creature, virtually an opposite one, than Chareidi anti-zionism. Chareidi anti-zionism rails that Israel and zionism aren't Jewish/parochial enough; while unaffiliated Jews indifferent to Israel and zionism think that they are too parochial.
A practical difference is when secular Israelis experience pain. Chareidim relate to it as if it happened to their own brother (such as Rav Shach's reaction to the deadly collision of two helicopters over a north Israeli cemetery which killed dozens, as witnessed and reported by Rabbi Aryeh Zev Ginzberg, rabbi of Chofetz Chaim Torah Center) whereas for the unaffiliated they'd more closely associate it as happening to absolute strangers or worse.
If those American youth would somehow come under the influence of those Chareidim, with other things going on their lives besides a negativity to the Medina, their hearts would come closer to their brothers in Israel.
===
EDIT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Israeli_helicopter_disaster
(Hat tip to S Shapiro for citing this below.)
Pass a UBI and have the government take over direct payments of all welfare benefits to the students. When they don't have to be in fear of the Roshei Yeshivot and Rosh Kollelim cutting off support; I think many will vote with their feet and leave a lifestyle which is unfulfilling for many of them.
You obviously are unaware of how and why people vote for UTJ. Such a plan will not work on even one person. They vote with their beliefs, right or wrong. Anyone who disagrees does what he wants.
Unfulfilling for many of them?
What have you been reading? (Smoking?)
Why not find out for yourself first hand if that's anywhere near the truth?
Rami, you have no idea of what you are talking about. Furthermore, when the Rambam decried people who shnorr in order to learn instead of getting a parnasa, he wasn't referring to our Kollel system in which the Kollel collects from people who want to support Torah learning and then the members of the Kollel are paid by the Kollel. The Kollel system is an expansion of the Yissachar-Zevulon paradigm that everyone agrees is highly praiseworthy. the Rambam is talking about people who spend their time going door to door to collect instead of using that same time and effort to engage in a parnasa. Baba Basra 110a לעולם ישכיר אדם עצמו לע״ז ואל יצטרך לבריות. והוא סבר: לע״ז ממשֹ ולא היא, אלא ע״ז ־ עבודה שזרה לו, כדאמר ליה רב לרב כהנא: נטוש נבילתא בשוקא ושקול אגרא, ולא תימא גברא רבא אנא וזילא בי מילתא
The modern kollel system is fundamentally different from the Yissachar/Zevulun paradigm as presented by Chazal and the Rishonim. The tribe of Yissachar WORKED. And they weren't just learning Torah - they were TEACHING Torah. See https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-they-didnt-teach-you-in-yeshiva
"The Kollel system is an expansion of the Yissachar-Zevulon paradigm"
Not if they take government funds.
You speak narishkeit, what are "government funds"? Taxes paid by the people. The government is only the gabbai to distribute it. Indeed, there are secular Israelis who would never want a grush of their money supporting Torah (any form of Torah education). But B"H due to politics, at least some of the taxes goes toward beneficial Torah programs, despite the stupidity and reticence of some Israelis. ALL Klal Yisroel benefits, and I would posit that without the plethora of Torah learning in Israel, it would have collapsed as a country a long time ago (despite what Jesus Slifkin claims).
What about the Arabs? And the non-Jewish Russians? Are they part of this too? Yissochor-Vladimir-Mansour-Zevulon arrangement. Sounds like a plot for a book....
The US didn't draft Japanese Americans to go to the pacific to fight other Japanese. You don't draft Arabs to go fight their own people. But maybe they could do public service instead. Why don't Charedi do pubic service? Why do they get to do nothing but read books all day and get paid by other Israelis who make real sacrifices?
"The US didn't draft Japanese Americans to go to the pacific to fight other Japanese. "
Right. They incarcerated them en masse.
"Why don't Charedi do pubic [sic, LOL] service?"
Such as?
Actually there was a company of Japanese-American soldiers that fought the Nazis in Europe.
I don’t know. If y’all don’t want to contribute to the military, why doesn’t your government create a program like Vista here is the US that y’all can serve your country in. Help the poor, plant trees, volunteer for stuff for the same amount of time that secular kids serve in the armed forces??
If ultra orthodox get to get paid for studying Torah all day and be exempt from public service, why not Jews of liberal branches? I’m sure many would take advantage of that. What about paying Arab citizens for studying the Quran all day? Let’s pay them too. Bunch of entitled Karens
I don't think that fits with the Rambam at all, that is still called מטיל עצמו על הציבור. There are many views other than the Rambam who we can follow in this. Rav Moshe Feinstein clearly said we don't follow the Rambam in this, and rely on others since it is necessary for the survival of our nation. (I agree that the numbers are much greater today and things may be different) For the main talk on this, se back and forth between מכרכר and Rabbi Slifkin from about six months ago.
You clearly don't know what you are talking about. I assume you never learned the Rambam at the end of Hilchos Shmita V'yovel. Those who argued on the Rambam ad locum like the Kesef Mishne (Bais Yosef) probably did so with the understanding that some ignorant people learning the Rambam may misconstrue the Rambam's intentions as you have.
I learnt that Rambam 200 times and that has nothing to do with anything. יזכה לדבר המספיק לו does not mean you can get everything from being supported by the community. Case in point, the Rambam himself was supported by his brother but when that fell through he did not accept support from the community and worked. Rav Moshe knew what he was talking about, and he said we do not follow the Rambam. To try Kvetching the Rambam in avos to what he says in Shmitta veyovel needs a lot more work than what you wrote above.
Left wingers in Israel spent the past five months blocking traffic and disrupting society over a simple adjustment necessary to bring the judiciary in line with the rest of the civilized world. Unwilling to accept the reality that their sun has set, this segment of Israel hasn't won an election in more than a generation, and even then they could only squeak in with Arab support. And when they were in, they passed reckless, irreversible legislation over the passionate screams of hundreds of thousands of protesters (dwarfing anything we've seen recently) and they couldn't have cared less. This is, today, a minority cohort that did some good things (along with some terrible things) a hundred years ago in laying the infrastructure of the state, but have been in slow decline since the 1980s, till reaching their present critically endangered status. Their attitude toward their own religion has ranged from outright hostility to a begrudging and insincere "tolerance" when it proved expedient.
So you can see why the right isn't all that concerned about a shrinking group of irresponsible hypocrites who already hate them anyway.
Wow there's so much that horrendous in what you just said that I hardly know where to start. "Squeak in with Arab support?" You obviously don't think that Arabs are citizens whose votes should mean anything. Only Jews can be citizens, right. Most human beings would find that abhorrent. Next, let’s compare how Israel chooses its judges compared to the US. In the US, the president chooses the judges but the judges have to be approved by the senate. The senate majority may or may not be the same party as the president and when it’s not,, the president has to compromise with the other party (theoretically) to fill that vacancy. In Israel, the prime minister picks the judges and the Knesset is ALWAYS the party (coalition) of the prime minister, so if Israel didn't have the system it has, there would be no check on who the PM could pick, ever. In Israel, the professional org (Bar Association) and other judges are part of a non-partisan selection committee that selects qualified ethically and morally (usually) upstanding people who the PM can select from. Often times here in the US we get people whom our Bar Association say are unqualified get selected because they are political favors or for ideological reasons. I'd take some measure of Israel's process here in a minute.
"In Israel, the professional org (Bar Association) and other judges are part of a non-partisan selection committee that selects qualified ethically and morally (usually) upstanding people who the PM can select from."
LOL, Mr Edelstein. As Minister Dudi Amsalem sarcastically suggested, why bother having laws at all, when the enlightened and ethical sages on the Supreme Court can simply hand down their oracular pronouncements.
It turns out that the benighted voters keep voting for the wrong parties. The nerve of them!
"I'd take some measure of Israel's process here in a minute."
If John Roberts suggested that he and Clarence Thomas should get a say over whom Biden nominated to replace Stephen Breyer, he'd be laughed out of the building.
By the way, Justice Minister Yariv Levin actually quoted Bernie Sanders.
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-statement-on-supreme-court-overturning-student-debt-cancellation/
"In my view, if right-wing Supreme Court justices want to make public policy they should quit the Supreme Court and run for political office. Frankly, I do not think their extremist views will gain much traction with the average American voter."
Levin then joked that he was waiting for all the condemnation to pour in about the horrors of Bernie Sanders attacking the sacred court, the way there is in Israel when Levin has the temerity to speak out against the High Court's self granted powers.
A country that has no checks and balances to protect minorities civil and human rights from the excesses of the majority, is not a modern democracy, it’s an authoritarian state.
Our country has a legislature that separate from the executive branch. Your country has no such thing. The only check on government power is the court.
“All too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will must be REASONABLE; that the minority possess their equal rights, which EQUAL law MUST protect, and to violate would be oppression.”
Thomas Jefferson
You're just making stuff up. Israel is a parliamentary democracy. It was before 1992, is now, and will remain so after these reforms, G-d willing, pass. The courts don't get to foist their best practices for democracy on the branches which are actually accountable to the public.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-fox-the-skeptic-and-the-politics/comment/21472877
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-fox-the-skeptic-and-the-politics/comment/21472462
But as long as you're quoting Jefferson....
https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/letter-to-judge-spencer-roane/
"The constitution, on this hypothesis, is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please. It should be remembered, as an axiom of eternal truth in politics, that whatever power in any government is independent, is absolute also; in theory only, at first, while the spirit of the people is up, but in practice, as fast as that relaxes. Independence can be trusted nowhere but with the people in mass. They are inherently independent of all but moral law."
And to think, Israel may devolve into civil war because some lazy assed unpatriotic men who want to shirk their responsibilities to their families and their country want to keep having big government support their families and other real MEN protect their cowardly asses from armies and terrorists. I’ve never taken welfare on my worst day nor did I shirk my responsibility to serve in my country’s armed forces. I don’t know how you fkers can look at yourselves in the mirror.
My Jefferson quote demonstrated that even TJ knew that the majority can be unjust towards minorities even as he was angry at Marshall for Madison vs Marbury. That’s way it was included. If you’d like a quote regarding the judiciary from the founding fathers of MY country…
“There is no Liberty if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers. And it proves in the last place, that as Liberty can have nothing to fear from the judiciary alone, but would have everything to fear from its union with either of the other departments.”
Alexander Hamilton
“The interpretation of the law is the proper and peculiar Provence of the courts.”
Alexander Hamilton
I’ve personally always loved and defended Israel from the haters. This latest theocratic and fascist government has made that much harder to do. And after having such wonderful conversations with people like you here, it’s no wonder such a large and growing percentage of young American Jews just don’t give a shit about it anymore. The only American allies you’ll soon have are evangelicals but you’ll push them away because you want to pass laws stoping them from proselytizing, plus all the hatred and spitting they experience on the streets of Israel from right wing religious fanatics such as you.
What gives me hope is all the people in Israel protesting against you.
May your country soon overcome you bigots, and soon
Charedim are a minority. Stop trashing them, you bigot. (see how easy that was?)
"And to think, Israel may devolve into civil war because some lazy assed unpatriotic men who want to shirk their responsibilities to their families and their country"
You really really don't have a clue. Once again, the push to overhaul the judiciary isn't being led by the charedim.
"other real MEN protect their cowardly asses"
Tell me more about your MANHOOD, you testosterone fueled macho superhero.
“The interpretation of the law is the proper and peculiar Provence of the courts.”
Alexander Hamilton"
Yeah, least dangerous branch and all that. Except that in Israel, the judges have unilaterally decided that there's a constitution and it means whatever they say it does.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%A7_%D7%95%D7%94%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%91
What do you mean “the exemptions for artists and athletes are equal for anyone”?