I'm not really getting involved in the actual bill right now, but being that Tisha B'Av we mourn the loss of השראת השכינה in this world, and מיום שחרב כו' אין להקב"ה בעולמו אלא ד"א של הלכה because that is where the שכינה rests now, it is quite the time of year to appreciate לימוד התורה באמת! Just saying...
Those who can't stand us hate us already anyways. And we are doing what we are doing and believe what we believe anyways - why not just make it official!
I can't imagine this proposal getting too far, but pushing for the extreme and backpedaling is a great political tactic...
I want more true עבודת השם in this world, nothing else. This bill will probably get more of that. If things are too complicated politically, or if this will cause some civil war or something like that and it will such lead to less עבודת השם, I don't want it. I'm also not so sure that we should do this without making certain learning bars mandatory which will bring more true עבודת השם as well. But I'll leave it to the גדולים to decide what will bring more עבודת השם - they are on the same mission as me and are more politically and communally aware than me.
The part that bothered me was seeing this proposal the morning after the knesset bill passed. That was a really bad tactic.
On the other hand, people seem to be disgusting to each other all year round, and suddenly, the week of tisha baav, people complain about it because of tisha baav, as if to ignore the behaviour all year round and to expect normal behaviour that week. I say leave tisha baav out of these discussions
True - we should always want to he tzadikim. But that’s easier said than done… so, in Elul and aseret yimei teshuva we try to improve ourselves. On Tisha B’Av we try to incorporate the lessons of this z’man into our lives as well. If not now, when will we?
Not many have noticed that the latest actions of UTJ are not a continuation of old policies, but is in a fact a silent revolution. UTJ's participation in the illegitimate Zionist gov't has always been limited. By passing a basic laws, i.e. constitutional acts that define the ממשלת הזדון which is forbidden to exist before the messianic era, they have transformed themselves into Zionists.
Such actions may appear to serve short-term narrow expedient interests and no doubt the Charedi press will soon be filled with all sorts of double talk, denying that participating in defining a country's constitution is a nationalist act. But it will be too late. No amount of denials will negate the fact that UTJ have become full participants in Zionist governance.
There are implications of becoming willing participants of the State. Like defending it.
As I wrote, "UTJ's participation in the illegitimate Zionist gov't has always been limited". Satmar, on the other hand won't even vote.
Hence the whole "deputy minister" nonsense. Hence J. Rosenblum's claim that UTJ won't cast a decisive vote on matters of security. UTJ's participation in the gov't was always about defending certain interests, and not about providing legitimacy for the Jewish State. By passing a basic law, one that defines the State- they have moved away from the policy of limited participation.
I was referring to the statement that a state is forbidden before Moshiach. UTJ do not follow authorities that held so. I know about the 3 oaths but its not in Shulchan Aruch and there are 10 answers to that. The Chareidi position is not to sacrifice torah for it but not that it is essentially assur. I am not interested in going down this rabbit hole but I don't like when people make it sound like Satmar is mainstream on this issue.
Everything you said is true of course. But at the end of the day best to just accept it, be thankful you are not like them, and be proud of your own community. They were never going to and will never go to the army. Any pathway to an exemption leads to faster integration into the workforce which is the real need.
Rambam had a very extreme view, being against even those who teach Torah from taking a salary. But certainly the normative view among Chazal and the Rishonim was very far from charedi norms today.
Would you kindly change to using either your real name or a pseudonym that doesn’t get confused with my real name. Or some combination thereof? I’d really appreciate it and probably you don’t want my statements confused for yours either.
And Kesef Mishnah (R' Y' Karo author of Shulchan Oruch) on that Rambam- SPELLS IT ALL OUT- that even Rambam would agree nowadays it's prefectly permissable for Torah learners to pe paid. Yawn.... The amhoratzus of some people on this blog is astounding......
Rabbi Slifkin writes: "Learning Torah (by which they actually mean learning Gemara) is not automatically a service to either the state or the nation. It is a service to oneself, not to society."
I would urge the author (and all readers) to see Shaarey Teshuvah of Rabeynu Yonah 145 where he states that 'anyone who says Torah learners are not benefitting society are 'megaleh ponim B'Torah' and have no portion in the world to come'......
Pass a UBI and have the government take over direct payments of all welfare benefits to the students. When they don't have to be in fear of the Roshei Yeshivot and Rosh Kollelim cutting off support; I think many will vote with their feet and leave a lifestyle which is unfulfilling for many of them.
You obviously are unaware of how and why people vote for UTJ. Such a plan will not work on even one person. They vote with their beliefs, right or wrong. Anyone who disagrees does what he wants.
Left wingers in Israel spent the past five months blocking traffic and disrupting society over a simple adjustment necessary to bring the judiciary in line with the rest of the civilized world. Unwilling to accept the reality that their sun has set, this segment of Israel hasn't won an election in more than a generation, and even then they could only squeak in with Arab support. And when they were in, they passed reckless, irreversible legislation over the passionate screams of hundreds of thousands of protesters (dwarfing anything we've seen recently) and they couldn't have cared less. This is, today, a minority cohort that did some good things (along with some terrible things) a hundred years ago in laying the infrastructure of the state, but have been in slow decline since the 1980s, till reaching their present critically endangered status. Their attitude toward their own religion has ranged from outright hostility to a begrudging and insincere "tolerance" when it proved expedient.
So you can see why the right isn't all that concerned about a shrinking group of irresponsible hypocrites who already hate them anyway.
That's a whole lot you're saying. But to address only Jewish American youth’s indifference towards Israel, it is a very different type of creature, virtually an opposite one, than Chareidi anti-zionism. Chareidi anti-zionism rails that Israel and zionism aren't Jewish/parochial enough; while unaffiliated Jews indifferent to Israel and zionism think that they are too parochial.
A practical difference is when secular Israelis experience pain. Chareidim relate to it as if it happened to their own brother (such as Rav Shach's reaction to the deadly collision of two helicopters over a north Israeli cemetery which killed dozens, as witnessed and reported by Rabbi Aryeh Zev Ginzberg, rabbi of Chofetz Chaim Torah Center) whereas for the unaffiliated they'd more closely associate it as happening to absolute strangers or worse.
If those American youth would somehow come under the influence of those Chareidim, with other things going on their lives besides a negativity to the Medina, their hearts would come closer to their brothers in Israel.
The modern kollel system is fundamentally different from the Yissachar/Zevulun paradigm as presented by Chazal and the Rishonim. The tribe of Yissachar WORKED. And they weren't just learning Torah - they were TEACHING Torah. See https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-they-didnt-teach-you-in-yeshiva
I don't think that fits with the Rambam at all, that is still called מטיל עצמו על הציבור. There are many views other than the Rambam who we can follow in this. Rav Moshe Feinstein clearly said we don't follow the Rambam in this, and rely on others since it is necessary for the survival of our nation. (I agree that the numbers are much greater today and things may be different) For the main talk on this, se back and forth between מכרכר and Rabbi Slifkin from about six months ago.
I learnt that Rambam 200 times and that has nothing to do with anything. יזכה לדבר המספיק לו does not mean you can get everything from being supported by the community. Case in point, the Rambam himself was supported by his brother but when that fell through he did not accept support from the community and worked. Rav Moshe knew what he was talking about, and he said we do not follow the Rambam. To try Kvetching the Rambam in avos to what he says in Shmitta veyovel needs a lot more work than what you wrote above.
Would that be the same Rabbeinu Yona who says that while Torah scholars are exempt from certain taxes, nevertheless if they are physically capable of work then it is prohibited for them to reap financial gain from Torah? (Commentary to Avos 4:7)
Indeed the same R'Yonah, and this does nothing to refute my point, because
as you must know, Kesef Mishna- written by Rav Yosef Karo- author of Shulchan Oruch- explicitly writes than NOWADAYS even Rambam (And hence R'Yonah as well) AGREES it's permitted for all Torah learners to receive payment.
But YOU have no source WHATSOEVER to defend the apikorsus of saying 'Torah learners do not contribute to society'.......
Again: The Gemara says Rabbanan. The fact that some scholars may interpret it differently does not remove the straightforward meaning.
Meanwhile, has it occurred to you that Rambam might well disagree with what R. Karo claimed he would have later changed his mind about?
Has it occurred to you that by same logic you are employing, it is actually even more likely that NOWADAYS even R. Karo would say that mass kollel is wrong?
Has it occurred to you that you are Ashkenazi, and Rema presents accepting money for learning as a minority yesh omrim?
David Oshie, while in general I want people to use their real names, in your case I'm going to have to insist that you use a pseudonym, it's just too confusing to have a David Ohsie and a David Oshie.
Aside from the fact that the word used is Rabbanan, it does not make sense to interpret the Gemara otherwise. How does someone who just learns benefit society? The only way to explain it is to invoke mystical benefits. But the Rishonim all describe the goals and benefits of Torah study in terms of its instructional and educational value. They make no mention of mystical energies created by Torah study. And the Gemara brings a proof based on the idea of these people having personal merit, not based on mystical energies.
It's a culture war; if they would come to any sort of middle, even a little bit, the left will push for a bit more moderation and a bit more and a bit more. The only way to keep the system as is is to keep the system as is. And so the fight continues...
As Rabbi Berel Wien says, "If the Israeli government would understand the history of all those who attacked religion, they'd understand the Chareidi reaction. (This was in regard to pushing secular curriculum) They should learn from other's mistakes that when you force Chareidim one way, they force back - But they didn't come to hear my lecture..."
Change the word supportive to tolerant and all modern (in spirit, not in chronology) countries are.
Or keep the word supportive and name another modern (again in spirit, not in chronology) country with as much antagonism (alongside the supportiveness) as it .
It took me time to even understand what you were asking. I don't know why you are bringing in other countries since in other countries there is no struggle of "mi hu yehudi". I was not complaining about how the state is, but when things started it was head on war. While things have calmed down, the people trying to acculturate chareidim with things such as army quota and educational standards are individuals that do not have the religious best intentions and are not doing it properly. In America no-one was down anyone's back and therefore the frum contributes to the economy on a much higher level.
Your tenacity is an inspiration to me. You've been regurgitating the same things over and over again for many years, without tire. I've been following you for just around a year now, and am completely fed up and bored of seeing the same topics over and over again, just taking on slightly different forms. I can't even bring myself to get involved and fight about the same topics ad nauseum anymore. At least for now.
Anyhow, you're wrong about this. See the Gemara in Bava Basra daf 8-9, and that's how is paskened in Shulchan Aruch.
The Gemara there is not applicable. Those who detest and want to overthrow a city’s wealth, safety and organization, leaving it exposed to murderous outsiders, are hardly like those who disburse charity.
Correct! We don't want to give in at all! Because you will always ask for more. As always, the liberals are all too happy to demolish the metsys (backwards system) entirely, piece by piece, because the system is something they absolutely don't care for (or get). Actually they *hate* the system (more than anything else) and have a mission to tear down the evil patriarchy.
Despite the issues, the conservatives care about the system (more than anything else) and will work mighty hard to preserve it, even it means being a bit extreme. If there were no liberals trying to tear things down, perhaps we could be more moderate, but in the current climate - absolutely not!
I gotta say, making such a fuss over this - you're a political strategist's dream. When a party proposes a bill for the first time, they deliberately inflate it, hoping to provoke outrage and panic from the party out of power. Lawyers write scary write-ups, hoping to lure clients. Lobbyists use it for fund-raising letters. Politicians use it for stump speeches. And when the party itself eventually cuts a few items, and modifies a few others, the bill looks palatable by comparison, and they can claim to be conciliatory and centrist. I mean - don't you know how politics works?
I'm not really getting involved in the actual bill right now, but being that Tisha B'Av we mourn the loss of השראת השכינה in this world, and מיום שחרב כו' אין להקב"ה בעולמו אלא ד"א של הלכה because that is where the שכינה rests now, it is quite the time of year to appreciate לימוד התורה באמת! Just saying...
You inspired my latest post. Thank you.
Always ready to inspire others!
Very well said, Rabbi. Thank you for clarifying this issue that is so vital to Israel and the diaspora.
Those who can't stand us hate us already anyways. And we are doing what we are doing and believe what we believe anyways - why not just make it official!
I can't imagine this proposal getting too far, but pushing for the extreme and backpedaling is a great political tactic...
Wait. Do you believe in this proposal or not?
I want more true עבודת השם in this world, nothing else. This bill will probably get more of that. If things are too complicated politically, or if this will cause some civil war or something like that and it will such lead to less עבודת השם, I don't want it. I'm also not so sure that we should do this without making certain learning bars mandatory which will bring more true עבודת השם as well. But I'll leave it to the גדולים to decide what will bring more עבודת השם - they are on the same mission as me and are more politically and communally aware than me.
The part that bothered me was seeing this proposal the morning after the knesset bill passed. That was a really bad tactic.
On the other hand, people seem to be disgusting to each other all year round, and suddenly, the week of tisha baav, people complain about it because of tisha baav, as if to ignore the behaviour all year round and to expect normal behaviour that week. I say leave tisha baav out of these discussions
True - we should always want to he tzadikim. But that’s easier said than done… so, in Elul and aseret yimei teshuva we try to improve ourselves. On Tisha B’Av we try to incorporate the lessons of this z’man into our lives as well. If not now, when will we?
"That was a really bad tactic."
The Russians did it regularly and successfully. Read Truman's memoirs.
Not many have noticed that the latest actions of UTJ are not a continuation of old policies, but is in a fact a silent revolution. UTJ's participation in the illegitimate Zionist gov't has always been limited. By passing a basic laws, i.e. constitutional acts that define the ממשלת הזדון which is forbidden to exist before the messianic era, they have transformed themselves into Zionists.
Such actions may appear to serve short-term narrow expedient interests and no doubt the Charedi press will soon be filled with all sorts of double talk, denying that participating in defining a country's constitution is a nationalist act. But it will be too late. No amount of denials will negate the fact that UTJ have become full participants in Zionist governance.
There are implications of becoming willing participants of the State. Like defending it.
Are you Satmar? UTJ isn't.
As I wrote, "UTJ's participation in the illegitimate Zionist gov't has always been limited". Satmar, on the other hand won't even vote.
Hence the whole "deputy minister" nonsense. Hence J. Rosenblum's claim that UTJ won't cast a decisive vote on matters of security. UTJ's participation in the gov't was always about defending certain interests, and not about providing legitimacy for the Jewish State. By passing a basic law, one that defines the State- they have moved away from the policy of limited participation.
I was referring to the statement that a state is forbidden before Moshiach. UTJ do not follow authorities that held so. I know about the 3 oaths but its not in Shulchan Aruch and there are 10 answers to that. The Chareidi position is not to sacrifice torah for it but not that it is essentially assur. I am not interested in going down this rabbit hole but I don't like when people make it sound like Satmar is mainstream on this issue.
Get back to us when Israel starts drafting ISRAELI Arabs.
Your are confusing mainstream Charedim with the Eidah Charedis.
You held of those implications before this development.
Everything you said is true of course. But at the end of the day best to just accept it, be thankful you are not like them, and be proud of your own community. They were never going to and will never go to the army. Any pathway to an exemption leads to faster integration into the workforce which is the real need.
Rambam (talmud torah 3:10) spells it all out
כָּל הַמֵּשִׂים עַל לִבּוֹ שֶׁיַּעֲסֹק בַּתּוֹרָה וְלֹא יַעֲשֶׂה מְלָאכָה, וְיִתְפַּרְנֵס מִן הַצְּדָקָה - הֲרֵי זֶה חִלֵּל אֶת הַשֵּׁם, וּבִזָּה אֶת הַתּוֹרָה, וְכִבָּה מְאוֹר הַדָּת, וְגָרַם רָעָה לְעַצְמוֹ, וְנָטַל חַיָּיו מִן הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, לְפִי שֶׁאָסוּר לֵהָנוֹת בְּדִבְרֵי תּוֹרָה בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה.
אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים: כָּל הַנֶּהֱנֶה מִדִּבְרֵי תּוֹרָה, נָטַל חַיָּיו מִן הָעוֹלָם. וְעוֹד צִוּוּ וְאָמְרוּ: לֹא תַּעֲשֵׂם עֲטָרָה לְהִתְגַּדֵּל בָּהֶן, וְלֹא קַרְדֹּם לַחְפֹּר בָּהֶן. וְעוֹד צִוּוּ וְאָמְרוּ: אֱהֹב אֶת הַמְּלָאכָה, וּשְׂנָא אֶת הָרַבָּנוּת; וְכָל תּוֹרָה שֶׁאֵין עִמָּהּ מְלָאכָה - סוֹפָהּ בְּטֵלָה. וְסוֹף אָדָם זֶה שֶׁיְּהֵא מְלַסְטֵס אֶת הַבְּרִיּוֹת.
Rambam had a very extreme view, being against even those who teach Torah from taking a salary. But certainly the normative view among Chazal and the Rishonim was very far from charedi norms today.
Rambam says the same in avos.
To be fair there are other views.
See Sh"t Rivush
More than that, there are those who explain the Rambam as allowing certain exceptions.
Right, and to quote one Rambam out of context is also not so acceptable. See for example Rambam Talmud Torah 1:12
? You talking to me?
No I'm agreeing with you.
To be clear, my name is Dovid Osher, my friends call me Oshie, not to be confused with kofer David Ohsie (notice the spelling difference)
Would you kindly change to using either your real name or a pseudonym that doesn’t get confused with my real name. Or some combination thereof? I’d really appreciate it and probably you don’t want my statements confused for yours either.
Fair, sorry.
You are addressing Yosef Hirsh?
And Kesef Mishnah (R' Y' Karo author of Shulchan Oruch) on that Rambam- SPELLS IT ALL OUT- that even Rambam would agree nowadays it's prefectly permissable for Torah learners to pe paid. Yawn.... The amhoratzus of some people on this blog is astounding......
Rabbi Slifkin writes: "Learning Torah (by which they actually mean learning Gemara) is not automatically a service to either the state or the nation. It is a service to oneself, not to society."
I would urge the author (and all readers) to see Shaarey Teshuvah of Rabeynu Yonah 145 where he states that 'anyone who says Torah learners are not benefitting society are 'megaleh ponim B'Torah' and have no portion in the world to come'......
Pass a UBI and have the government take over direct payments of all welfare benefits to the students. When they don't have to be in fear of the Roshei Yeshivot and Rosh Kollelim cutting off support; I think many will vote with their feet and leave a lifestyle which is unfulfilling for many of them.
You obviously are unaware of how and why people vote for UTJ. Such a plan will not work on even one person. They vote with their beliefs, right or wrong. Anyone who disagrees does what he wants.
Unfulfilling for many of them?
What have you been reading? (Smoking?)
Why not find out for yourself first hand if that's anywhere near the truth?
Left wingers in Israel spent the past five months blocking traffic and disrupting society over a simple adjustment necessary to bring the judiciary in line with the rest of the civilized world. Unwilling to accept the reality that their sun has set, this segment of Israel hasn't won an election in more than a generation, and even then they could only squeak in with Arab support. And when they were in, they passed reckless, irreversible legislation over the passionate screams of hundreds of thousands of protesters (dwarfing anything we've seen recently) and they couldn't have cared less. This is, today, a minority cohort that did some good things (along with some terrible things) a hundred years ago in laying the infrastructure of the state, but have been in slow decline since the 1980s, till reaching their present critically endangered status. Their attitude toward their own religion has ranged from outright hostility to a begrudging and insincere "tolerance" when it proved expedient.
So you can see why the right isn't all that concerned about a shrinking group of irresponsible hypocrites who already hate them anyway.
What do you mean “the exemptions for artists and athletes are equal for anyone”?
Excellent. Yiyasher kochecha.
That's a whole lot you're saying. But to address only Jewish American youth’s indifference towards Israel, it is a very different type of creature, virtually an opposite one, than Chareidi anti-zionism. Chareidi anti-zionism rails that Israel and zionism aren't Jewish/parochial enough; while unaffiliated Jews indifferent to Israel and zionism think that they are too parochial.
A practical difference is when secular Israelis experience pain. Chareidim relate to it as if it happened to their own brother (such as Rav Shach's reaction to the deadly collision of two helicopters over a north Israeli cemetery which killed dozens, as witnessed and reported by Rabbi Aryeh Zev Ginzberg, rabbi of Chofetz Chaim Torah Center) whereas for the unaffiliated they'd more closely associate it as happening to absolute strangers or worse.
If those American youth would somehow come under the influence of those Chareidim, with other things going on their lives besides a negativity to the Medina, their hearts would come closer to their brothers in Israel.
===
EDIT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Israeli_helicopter_disaster
(Hat tip to S Shapiro for citing this below.)
The modern kollel system is fundamentally different from the Yissachar/Zevulun paradigm as presented by Chazal and the Rishonim. The tribe of Yissachar WORKED. And they weren't just learning Torah - they were TEACHING Torah. See https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-they-didnt-teach-you-in-yeshiva
"The Kollel system is an expansion of the Yissachar-Zevulon paradigm"
Not if they take government funds.
I don't think that fits with the Rambam at all, that is still called מטיל עצמו על הציבור. There are many views other than the Rambam who we can follow in this. Rav Moshe Feinstein clearly said we don't follow the Rambam in this, and rely on others since it is necessary for the survival of our nation. (I agree that the numbers are much greater today and things may be different) For the main talk on this, se back and forth between מכרכר and Rabbi Slifkin from about six months ago.
I learnt that Rambam 200 times and that has nothing to do with anything. יזכה לדבר המספיק לו does not mean you can get everything from being supported by the community. Case in point, the Rambam himself was supported by his brother but when that fell through he did not accept support from the community and worked. Rav Moshe knew what he was talking about, and he said we do not follow the Rambam. To try Kvetching the Rambam in avos to what he says in Shmitta veyovel needs a lot more work than what you wrote above.
You missed the crucial word in that Gemara - רבנן
Actually you are wrong. Rabeynu Yona 145 states explicitly this refers to Torah LEARNERS- NOT rabbis.
Not worth losing your olam haboh for........
Would that be the same Rabbeinu Yona who says that while Torah scholars are exempt from certain taxes, nevertheless if they are physically capable of work then it is prohibited for them to reap financial gain from Torah? (Commentary to Avos 4:7)
Indeed the same R'Yonah, and this does nothing to refute my point, because
as you must know, Kesef Mishna- written by Rav Yosef Karo- author of Shulchan Oruch- explicitly writes than NOWADAYS even Rambam (And hence R'Yonah as well) AGREES it's permitted for all Torah learners to receive payment.
But YOU have no source WHATSOEVER to defend the apikorsus of saying 'Torah learners do not contribute to society'.......
Again: The Gemara says Rabbanan. The fact that some scholars may interpret it differently does not remove the straightforward meaning.
Meanwhile, has it occurred to you that Rambam might well disagree with what R. Karo claimed he would have later changed his mind about?
Has it occurred to you that by same logic you are employing, it is actually even more likely that NOWADAYS even R. Karo would say that mass kollel is wrong?
Has it occurred to you that you are Ashkenazi, and Rema presents accepting money for learning as a minority yesh omrim?
No sender zeyv, you just don't get it, that gemara is 'irrational' - this blog is about *rationalist* Judaism.
I am being sarcastic and making fun of this blog
David Oshie, while in general I want people to use their real names, in your case I'm going to have to insist that you use a pseudonym, it's just too confusing to have a David Ohsie and a David Oshie.
K sorry
The distinction is drawn be tween those who teach Torah, and those who just stam learn Torah.
Please read it again--or in English, "How do the rabbis help us? They learn for themselves..."
I.e., an Apikorus is one who makes such comments about people who, to use your words, just stam learn Torah.
"rabbis." not stam people who learn.
Where did you get the definition of רבנן as implied in your comment?
In the word "rabanan."
Where did you pull that from? I can understand that not everyone in the beis midrash is included but where is that distinction drawn from?
Aside from the fact that the word used is Rabbanan, it does not make sense to interpret the Gemara otherwise. How does someone who just learns benefit society? The only way to explain it is to invoke mystical benefits. But the Rishonim all describe the goals and benefits of Torah study in terms of its instructional and educational value. They make no mention of mystical energies created by Torah study. And the Gemara brings a proof based on the idea of these people having personal merit, not based on mystical energies.
The Gemara could have said, "Taldmei Chachomim." Instead, the Gemara said Rabanon, reserved for the gedolim.
"Rabanon" is *not* reserved for the gedolim. IIRC, it's reserved for the students.
Rubbish! See Shaarey Teshuvah 145- this gemoroh specifically refers to stam Torah learners- NOT rabbis.......
I looked at Shaarei Teshuva and he says nothing of the sort.
What a bunch of hooey. They've never shown the slightest interest in working out such a thing.
It's a culture war; if they would come to any sort of middle, even a little bit, the left will push for a bit more moderation and a bit more and a bit more. The only way to keep the system as is is to keep the system as is. And so the fight continues...
As Rabbi Berel Wien says, "If the Israeli government would understand the history of all those who attacked religion, they'd understand the Chareidi reaction. (This was in regard to pushing secular curriculum) They should learn from other's mistakes that when you force Chareidim one way, they force back - But they didn't come to hear my lecture..."
Name another country in history that's been as supportive of the Charedi lifestyle. Where do you people come up with this nonsense
Change the word supportive to tolerant and all modern (in spirit, not in chronology) countries are.
Or keep the word supportive and name another modern (again in spirit, not in chronology) country with as much antagonism (alongside the supportiveness) as it .
See also here
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/pure-gold/comment/18541418
It took me time to even understand what you were asking. I don't know why you are bringing in other countries since in other countries there is no struggle of "mi hu yehudi". I was not complaining about how the state is, but when things started it was head on war. While things have calmed down, the people trying to acculturate chareidim with things such as army quota and educational standards are individuals that do not have the religious best intentions and are not doing it properly. In America no-one was down anyone's back and therefore the frum contributes to the economy on a much higher level.
America does not confront existential threats of total annihilation.
Your tenacity is an inspiration to me. You've been regurgitating the same things over and over again for many years, without tire. I've been following you for just around a year now, and am completely fed up and bored of seeing the same topics over and over again, just taking on slightly different forms. I can't even bring myself to get involved and fight about the same topics ad nauseum anymore. At least for now.
Anyhow, you're wrong about this. See the Gemara in Bava Basra daf 8-9, and that's how is paskened in Shulchan Aruch.
The Gemara there is not applicable. Those who detest and want to overthrow a city’s wealth, safety and organization, leaving it exposed to murderous outsiders, are hardly like those who disburse charity.
Find out if there's anyone for them to talk to.
Nachal Charedi is for a small number of charedi total drop-outs.
Charedim don't serve, as a matter of policy and as a matter of practice. A tiny number of dropouts is irrelevant.
One big non-sequitor. The argument here was that UTJ's proposal would increase hatred towards 'all religious Jews and to Torah itself,".
You have defending the law, but you haven't addressed the issue of hatred.
He hasn't defended the law. His claim that charedim actually want to work out an arrangement whereby they contribute is just utter nonsense.
Correct! We don't want to give in at all! Because you will always ask for more. As always, the liberals are all too happy to demolish the metsys (backwards system) entirely, piece by piece, because the system is something they absolutely don't care for (or get). Actually they *hate* the system (more than anything else) and have a mission to tear down the evil patriarchy.
Despite the issues, the conservatives care about the system (more than anything else) and will work mighty hard to preserve it, even it means being a bit extreme. If there were no liberals trying to tear things down, perhaps we could be more moderate, but in the current climate - absolutely not!
I gotta say, making such a fuss over this - you're a political strategist's dream. When a party proposes a bill for the first time, they deliberately inflate it, hoping to provoke outrage and panic from the party out of power. Lawyers write scary write-ups, hoping to lure clients. Lobbyists use it for fund-raising letters. Politicians use it for stump speeches. And when the party itself eventually cuts a few items, and modifies a few others, the bill looks palatable by comparison, and they can claim to be conciliatory and centrist. I mean - don't you know how politics works?
The big problem with the ensuing hatred is that it is not חינם.
You're right it's worse than חנם, it's hating the people who stand for God
Any chance you could use your real name to avoid confusion?
If that is how you define חינם there was never such a case. People always had a reason to hate, just not a good enough one.