If someone walks into a group and sees the tremendous dedication to their values, an altruistic attitude that transcends tribalism and personal ambition, self-negation and personal growth, along with strong families and a value system that is not open to the winds of the day, he can easily ignore these complaints. When someone mentions them, he will not be disturbed by them.
However, if a person has 'spoiled milk in his glasses', all he will see is spoiled milk. If your starting point is politics and other such filth, then of course your view of every person with a dusty black hat will be associated with gender-separate beaches.
Rabbi Pesach Krohn spoke about this years ago when Lapid first started campaigning. He asked why is Lapid becoming popular? Why is there this hate? R. Krohn responded that its because Charedim arent teaching the klal about the beauty of the Torah. Instead of focusing on things that bring klal yisrael together they focus on pushing everyone apart.
Rabbi Slifkin, I'm continually amazed at the number of people who seem to read your blog so that they can immediately find a reason to disagree with it, logically or otherwise.
Here you've given an example of a resource that is available in a finite number (beaches in Israel). And you've pointed out that people who've used those beaches for years would be highly resentful if access were taken away from them and given to another group of people.
And yet at least half-a-dozen posters have used your point as a pretext to write about something completely different.
In general, hatred of the other, however the term is defined, is based on competition. Antisemites, for example, resent the fact that Jews are over-represented in professions.
What irks me is that
1. You concede that the hareidim might have a just claim
2. You ignore the fact that almost all religious Zionists also want separate beaches.
3. You seem to be justifying hatred. It is only a short step to acting on it in an illegal manner.
Ironically, in this week's parsha we learn about the consequences of such hatred. Rivka said that if there would be curse, it would be עלי. The Gra says that they are rashei teivot:
עשו, who wanted to kill the body, לבן, who wanted to kill the soul, and the worst of all, יוסף, hatred between brothers.
The Gra only applies to people that are brothers. That would include within chareidim and other populations that are Shomrei Torah. With them, you have a ta'anah, for example the hatred between different chasidic groups, or the hatred between the actual religious DL population and the chareidim. But the group Slifkin belongs to are not our brothers, they are not אחיך במצוות. They are secularists, they don't value what we value, of course they would hate people whose main value is religion, and who wield political power.
This is besides the point, but of course you can find plenty of answers to the question of "Why do people hate Jews?" as well. "Is there no possible reason why people hate Jews? You can't conceive of ANY possible reason?" Just look on any antisemitic/pro-Palestinian website, or read any of the hundreds of books of antisemitic literature. You will find plenty of reasons for resentment against Jews. And many of the reasons have some validity. We don't like talking about it, but our enemies have no problem talking about it.
I think hate is a strong and probably misplaced word. I feel that resentment and perhaps antipathy are probably more accurate. I think people feel that chareidim* act as bullies and gaslighters
I think that what @Happy said above is a good example: “Gra only applies to people that are brothers. That would include within chareidim and other populations that are Shomrei Torah…But the group Slifkin belongs to are not our brothers.”
Suddenly millions of Jews are no longer “brothers” as they have been believed to be for thousands of years.
The chief rabbinate and chareidim don’t recognize reform and conservative and many Orthodox Jews as even being Jewish and practicing Judaism. Intentionally driving a wedge between the (relatively) small group of Chareidim
and the much larger group of non-Orthodox and non-chareidi Jews; though these other brothers of ours have the same blood in their veins from the same lines of Jews going back for many many generations. Instead of just practicing Judaism how they feel most appropriate and letting others practice those other feels most appropriate (as Rav JB Soloveitchik describes religion in “Confrontation” as an immensely personal experience - my paraphrasing) what they are doing is saying “my way is right, and yours is wrong, yours is not even Jewish” More gaslighting and bullying.
They ignore the truth of a pluralistic world and the self-truths of millions of of brother and sister Jews.
*disclaimer - lots of generalizations; not universally applicable.
"I think hate is a strong and probably misplaced word. I feel that resentment and perhaps antipathy are probably more accurate."
Valuable! Cheers!
"The chief rabbinate and chareidim don’t recognize reform and conservative and many Orthodox Jews as even being Jewish and practicing Judaism."
"...as ... practicing Judaism." Correct. They don't recognize them as practicing Judaism.
"...as even being Jewish". Wrong. They DO recognize them as being Jewish, but of course! their mothers are Jewish and so are they. The chief rabbis and the Chareidim are Jewish for that reason too.
@Jeffrey, it's only suddenly if you haven't read the words of Rambam's comm. on the Mishna Sanhedrin 10:1 recently (translated by Sefaria, capitalization added).
"And when a person believes in all of these principles and his faith in them is clarified, he enters into the category of Israel; and it is [then] a commandment to love him and to have mercy upon him and to act with him according to everything which God, may He be blessed, commanded about the a man towards his fellow, regarding love and brotherhood. And even if he does what is in his ability from the sins, because of desire and the overpowering of his base nature (=corrupted chareidim & others...), he is punished according to his sins, but he [still] has a share in the world to come, and is [only considered to be] from the sinners of Israel. But if one of these principles becomes compromised for a person, behold, HE EXITS THE CATEGORY OF ISRAEL and denies a fundamental [dogma] and is called an apostate, a heretic and 'someone who cuts the plantings.' And it is a commandment to hate him and to destroy him, and about him it is stated (Psalms 139:21), "Do I not hate those that You hate, O Lord."
We should recall that when the Rambam was writing some 800+ years ago, if a person decided to do things which Rambam branded as being heretical (and not everyone in his generation, or other earlier / later generations agreed with him about what (or even whether) beliefs or certain actions make someone a heretic) that person was essentially stepping away from mainstream Jewish society.
Today, that does not apply to reform or conservative Jews; there are in fact millions of them - a community larger in fact than the Orthodox. (That was one of the main points of my comment above: that there are “millions of Jews” who identify that way). So they are specifically NOT stepping away from the Jewish community; they are firmly within it.
Those comments from the Rambam are simply inapplicable to today’s reality.
You also repeat a central or <i>the</i> central idea of reform ideology, that Halacha can't coexist with current "reality".
For the benefit of those who consider the words of our authorities timeless, let me cite the following:
וגם כי בענין האהבה לכל אדם שהובאה בספרים, ידוע מאמר חז״ל באבות דר׳ נתן פט״ז: אהוב את כל אדם ושנא את האפיקורסין ואת המינים, וכמו שכתב הרמב״ם בפירוש המשניות פ׳ חלק שכל שנתבררה אמונתו בהי״ג עיקרים הוא נכנס בכלל ישראל ומצוה לאהבו ולרחם עליו ולנהוג עמו בכל מה שצוה השם יתברך איש לחברו מן האהבה והאחוה ואפילו עשה מה שיכול מן העברות מחמת התאוה והתגברות הטבע הגרוע הוא נענש כפי חטאו, אבל יש לו חלק לעולם הבא והוא מפושעי ישראל, וכשנתקלקל לאדם יסוד מאלה היסודות, הרי יצא מן הכלל וכפר בעיקר ונקרא מין ואפיקורוס וקוצץ בנטיעות ומצוה לשונאו ולאבדו, ועליו נאמר: הלא משנאיך ה׳ אשנא. וכן במורה נבוכים ח״א פל״ו כתב, שנקרא אויב ושונא וצר וק״ו מעובד עבודה זרה שנאמר בם לא תחיה כל נשמה. וכן בפרק י״א מהלכות עדות כתב, שהם גרועים מהעכו״ם, וכמו שכתב האבן עזרא בפ׳ יתרו והספורנו בפ׳ ויקרא והעקרים מאמר א׳ פי״ד. (וצ״ל שמה שהביא הסמ״ג סוף מצוה פא מקרא דירמיהו שאפילו אלו שמותר לשנאותם הזהירה תורה לרחם עליהם ולעזרם בעת הצורך, כמפורש בחמור שונאך, נמי לא מיירי במינים, ואף על גב שהביא מירמיהו לא—לו אם ימדו שמים וגו' גם אני אמאס בכל זרע ישראל על כל אשר עשו לי, צ״ל דאפיקורסים יצאו גם מכלל זרע ישראל). וברמב״ם
וברמב״ם פ״ב מהלכות עכו״ם ה״ה כתב, שהאפיקורסים אינם כישראל לדבר מן הדברים. ומה שמצינו שמוסר כישראל הוא לענין שגיטו גט וקידושיו קידושין וקונה בישראל, ולענין לפני עור לא תתן מכשול, כבר חילק הטור ביורה־דעה סוף סי׳ רסח בין עניני הרחקה וחבורו עם ישראל ובין דיניו וחיוביו הוא עצמו. ואף על גב שבעצם ודאי ישראל הוא ובניו שיולדו ממנו כל קדושת ישראל עליהם, אבל בהנהגתו וההנהגה עמו גרוע הוא מהעכו״ם, וכמו אדם שנטרפה דעתו שבעצם הוא אדם בעל שכל והבנים שיולדו ממנו יכולים להיות בעלי שכל ומכל מקום בהנהגה עמו הוא גרוע מבעל חי והוא מועד להזיק בין את עצמו בין את האחרים יותר מבעל חי. אלא שמו״ח זצ״ל באר שגם גודל השנאה מרוב אהבה ואחוה היא, ומגודל הצער על שאחיו בן ישראל מטמא את נשמתו הקדושה. וזהו שהכתוב מתפלא: תכלית שנאה שנאתים, שזה מראה על גודל אחוותי, והם לאויבים היו לי. וידוע מאמרו של הגרח״ס זצ״ל, שהשנאה והמחלוקת עם רשעים צריכה להיות כשנאת הבעלים להעכברים שמצטער על שישנם וצריך לבערם, ולא כהחתול הנהנה ממה שיש לו מה לבער ולאכול, שזהו כרוצה בקיומו. ונראה שזהו מה שכתב כתומר דבורה סוף פרק ב׳: ואפילו הרשעים יאהב אותם בלבו ויאמר מי יתן ויהיו אלו צדיקים שבים בתשובה.
Ummm, no. I did not say "Halacha can't coexist with current 'reality'." I never suggested such a thing. I think you just made that up out of whole cloth.
what I said was simply (I mean you can scroll up to see what I wrote) but essentially that at a time in history being "heretical" (for example from Rambam's perspective as mentioned in your quote (which you did not provide a source for) not believing in the 13 Ikarim) meant a conscious decision to leave the fold of the Jewish people (per your quote "Yatza Min HaKlal"). That simply is not the case today.
The views and beliefs within Judaism are extremely diverse. This is why numbers are not meaningless - the fact that millions of Jews don't agree with you, means that there is a huge population of Jews who remain Jewish and do not jettison their Judaism simply by doing things which you (or perhaps the Rambam) deem heretical). (almost) no one leaves the fold of the Jewish people due to one belief or another. Admittedly, there are very few Jews - often ex-Chareidim - who find that their new beliefs and world views are incompatible with their Judaism and do still intentionally leave the fold. Most however remain strongly tied to the Jewish people and intentionally so.
It's not a knock on the Rambam; society has simply evolved so that his "givens" have changed and therefore his deductions are simply no longer accurate.
Since you decided to post the above, please provide the source citation; also who are the people quoted that I am not familiar with the abbreviations: שמו״ח, הגרח״ס ? thanks
Let me modify what I wrote: You also repeat a central or <i>the</i> central idea of reform ideology, that [SOMETIMES] Halacha can't coexist with current "reality".
There's a Halacha to love people. Rambam rules that with regard to heretics etc. you are exempt. Are Jewish heretics our brothers? Yes and no, but predominantly no. For love--no. As expressed by Tur Y. D. the end of #268 he is no longer Jewish in the sense that we distance him. For example, his bread is Pas Akum. The Tur gives examples of how OTOH he remains Jewish.
The rest of your comment has much equivocation. You might mean that heretics are absolutely wrong despite that they are the majority. But being they are in the majority we must relate to them kindly, as their attitudes are irresistibly produced by the herd. And we must find pleasant ways, where available, to bring them back. That would be Halachicly sound.
I am much more comfortable with the term resentment. I have no problem with people resenting Israel/Jews either, to the extent that their complaints have validity (which many of them do).
It is not "suddenly" that millions of Jews are no longer brothers, they have abandoned the Torah, so on a very important level, they are not our brothers. The same has been true for thousands of years, whether with Sadducees, Karaites, willing converts to Christianity, and now with Reform/Conservative/secular. Perhaps they are תנוקות שנשבו, and it is their corrupt leaders who are to blame. And yes, on another level, those who are halachically Jewish are still our brothers, albeit our very, very estranged brothers.
Your comment, like Don’s, misses the point. These millions of Jews have NOT “abandoned the Torah,” they simply view it differently than you do.
Your comments about “tinokot
SheNishbu” and “corrupt leaders” and comparisons to “sadducees” or “Karaites” all just continue the same problem which leads to the resentment I was highlighting above.
Certain Chareidim (and potentially other Orthodox; and probably billions of people around the world) harbor feelings of elitism, superiority, triumphalism, however you want to label it. “We are the only ones who do Jewish correctly… the others on my left are all wrong …they are babies … tinokot… corrupt…etc.”.
Really they’re just as Jewish as the rest of us. They might just be trying to connect with Judaism in the way they believe to be most authentic just as we all are. You could just as easily compare them to the Chasidic movement in the time of the Gra as you could to the Karraites. It’s just different from how you do it; not necessarily intrinsically better or worse than what you do.
Time will tell. In 500 years, they’ll either still be part of the Jewish story or not; same can be said of you; of me; of all of us.
The finger pointing ; the we’re right, you’re wrong; the using the power of the state to enforce that argument today… those things lead to resentment.
Sorry, the Helenists, Sadducees, Karaites, and Christians said the EXACT same thing as you- "We didn't abandon the Torah, we simply view it differently than you". They are just as Jewish as you are, right? Would you listen to anti-vaxxers who say "We aren't anti-science, we just view it differently"?
You can justify yourselves however you want, you can tell yourselves whatever stories you want, you can make up new terms and change the definition of old ones, but...but...reality comes calling. You abandoned the Torah. Calling you guys babies is the biggest compliment, you are not truly wicked, you are just hopelessly ignorant about the most important things. And it is your wicked leaders, both political and intellectual leaders, who should know better, who are to blame. And perhaps we share the blame as well.
The comparison to the Chasidic movement is laughable and just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Now, there are many Jewish groups that I have profound disagreements with, but I don't view them this way. For example, I profoundly disagree with Chasidim on many matters. I profoundly disagree with the Israeli Chareidi approach to education and (not) working for a living. I profoundly disagree with Religious Zionist's tolerance of secularism. To me, a particular strand of the American Yeshivish path is "best" (although I recognize that different approaches may work for different people). But I consider all the above mentioned groups to be my brothers.
However, there comes a point where it is not just a matter of profound disagreement over this matter or that, but a fundamental, unbridgeable divide in values. This is what happened with the Helenists, Sadducees, Karaites, Christians, and now the Reform, Conservative, and Secularists. We fundamentally do not share the same values (at least any more than those we share with non-Jews). These people are my brothers only by blood, by distant blood, in the same way a seventh-generation American descended from German immigrants in 1869 is a "brother" of modern Germans in Germany.
Of course you are correct that this drives resentment, just like we were resented by the Christians all these years. Just don't pretend that your primitive feeling of resentment is any more "enlightened" than plain old-fashioned anti-semitism.
No need to apologize. Listen, it is what it is. It’s human nature to have a need to be “right” and those you disagree with to be “wrong”.
It’s not just you. You don’t need to apologize of feel bad about it. As I specifically said above: “probably billions of people around the world[] harbor feelings of elitism, superiority, triumphalism, however you want to label it”
You’re just like almost everyone else in the world (myself included, unfortunately; though
It is something - personal character flaw maybe, innate defense mechanism from millions of years of evolution perhaps - that I try to work on and improve).
As long as you ( & me, all of us ) understand that such heavy handed perspectives breed resentment, indignation, etc.
It’s different than anti-Semitism; however. Antisemitism has been historically aimed at the smallest of nations with the least power in all societies where they lived. Jews who had little if anything to do with the majority populations who they lived near. Chareidim (along with many other orthodox and yes some reform and conservative Jews too) however can’t seem to just live and let live. They all want to be the ones to decide who can be Jewish and who can’t. Who’s in and who’s out. Who’s right and who’s wrong. And that’s part of the problem. Everyone thinks they have the right to define the other.
And then chareidim take it an additional step - beyond their own personal opinions in their own Shuls: with the power of the chief rabbinate and coalitions in the Knesset, they try to make laws impacting on others. (Just like the popes of old).
Jeff, I gotta hand it to you. You are seriously the most confused and ignorant commenter on RJ. Quite an accomplishment indeed! Judaism is clearly defined by its laws (think Torah, Talmud, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch etc...). As happy pointed out earlier in the thread, this is not the 'Chareidi' position. This is what DEFINES Jews as Jews. The same way H2O is what DEFINES water. And the same way night is night and day is day. Now if someone wants to create a new religion where they refer to day as night or sand as water, kol hakavod. But objectively, it's simply NOT TRUE.
I guess being that you are a product of modern secular society where men can 'identify' as women and vice versa, you have difficulty with this concept. You can 'identify' as Jewish or trans or whatever the heck you want. But don't be surprised if sane people just cluck their tongues sympathetically and don't share your delusions!
It’s human nature to have a need for those who you DISAGREE with to be “right”. That way, hopefully, you take away THEIR right to consider YOU "wrong".
וכעין שצוה כנען את בניו אהבו זה את זה וכו' בפסחים קיג: כידוע
Thanks, I appreciate your understanding. As I indicated before, I agree that such a perspective inevitably breeds resentment. It is a burden we carry.
I don't agree about anti-Semitism, however. Jews historically had a lot to do with the majority population, they were inextricably entangled with them economically. They had significant commercial power which bred much resentment. A good deal of this power was that Jews coordinated amongst themselves much more effectively than the majority, and did this to their maximum advantage, similar to the "power" the Israeli chareidi minority has today. And if you read Christian anti-Semitic literature, one recurring complaint is that Jews think they're so much better than Christians and view them as lower than dogs (and this complaint was not that inaccurate). Some things never change. I am not justifying anitsemitism, however, we should not lie to ourselves and think it was simply irrational hatred.
And of course the same is with hating Israel/Zionists. "Why do people hate Israel? You can't conceive of ANY possible reason?" And we all know the answer to that, unfortunately.
So this is the author's explanation explaining why it is logical to hate Haredim? Replace the word 'Haredim' with the word 'Jew' in this article and you have a pefect article written by Goebles in DeSturmer.......
In Ashdod, the chareidim make up a third of the population, and the separate beach is less than 10% , and let’s not forget how many people come to Ashdod beach in the summer from bnei brak, yerushalayim etc., so I don’t see much of an issue with them asking for more beach space.
I think that you honestly have a mental block on anything chareidi…..
<<doubling the payments to people in yeshivah and kollel...>>
The word doubling sounds scary, but what's the actual amount? A whopping 750 shekels a month? What's about pensioners who come to Israel from former Soviet republics (half of which are not even Jewish) and get 6,000/month per person?
If the black population in the US will receive $350,000 a head for "slavery reparations", and the Arabs receive billions curtesy of Benett/Lapid, do you blame the Chareidi population for rioting too?
How dare the Chareidim ask for something that they deserve by law in proportion to their population!
Let me get this straight- you want Chareidim to go to the army, pay full taxes, and not receive any governmental benefits that rightfully belong to then based on their proportion to the population because ot might cause resentment! Chareidim are not people, so their rights don't matter.
If this was a gay beach, of course the beach would be approved, despite there being less of a reason for gays to receive their own beach than the chareidim.
Only the chareidim are expected to participate in Israeli society and not receive the benefits they deserve due to resentment.
Who's saying they're to participate and get no benefits? R. Slifkin is saying that the fact they expect benefits despite lack of participation causes resentment--as does their desire to impose their values on the rest of the society.
@Rami, your parameters of contribution/participation are limited by what's natural. Indeed, those who entire picture consists only of nature will be upset with the Chareidim for their lack of this contribution/participation. But in their view they contribute to the national weal by learning Torah & observing Halacha and are entitled to any spoils any other winning party would take. Having said that, I don't see the wisdom of some of their requests. Since there are those upset with them, why not ask for less so as not to upset them more?
(Can you put all the comments on the same page as the post? It's inconvenient to have to switch pages when having to compare the comments & the post. Either way, Cheers!)
Not nearly rude, thanks. I gather from what you say that even without a public pronouncement, it's safe to assume the sentiment exists and likely is prevalent.
It all depends on the starting point.
If someone walks into a group and sees the tremendous dedication to their values, an altruistic attitude that transcends tribalism and personal ambition, self-negation and personal growth, along with strong families and a value system that is not open to the winds of the day, he can easily ignore these complaints. When someone mentions them, he will not be disturbed by them.
However, if a person has 'spoiled milk in his glasses', all he will see is spoiled milk. If your starting point is politics and other such filth, then of course your view of every person with a dusty black hat will be associated with gender-separate beaches.
Rabbi Pesach Krohn spoke about this years ago when Lapid first started campaigning. He asked why is Lapid becoming popular? Why is there this hate? R. Krohn responded that its because Charedim arent teaching the klal about the beauty of the Torah. Instead of focusing on things that bring klal yisrael together they focus on pushing everyone apart.
WADR to RPK, you found someone who confirms your view.
Rabbi Slifkin, I'm continually amazed at the number of people who seem to read your blog so that they can immediately find a reason to disagree with it, logically or otherwise.
Here you've given an example of a resource that is available in a finite number (beaches in Israel). And you've pointed out that people who've used those beaches for years would be highly resentful if access were taken away from them and given to another group of people.
And yet at least half-a-dozen posters have used your point as a pretext to write about something completely different.
(Sigh.)
They have no right to feel resentfull. Religious people make up 25% of the population yet we only have a handful of small beaches. How is that fair?
In general, hatred of the other, however the term is defined, is based on competition. Antisemites, for example, resent the fact that Jews are over-represented in professions.
What irks me is that
1. You concede that the hareidim might have a just claim
2. You ignore the fact that almost all religious Zionists also want separate beaches.
3. You seem to be justifying hatred. It is only a short step to acting on it in an illegal manner.
Ironically, in this week's parsha we learn about the consequences of such hatred. Rivka said that if there would be curse, it would be עלי. The Gra says that they are rashei teivot:
עשו, who wanted to kill the body, לבן, who wanted to kill the soul, and the worst of all, יוסף, hatred between brothers.
The Gra only applies to people that are brothers. That would include within chareidim and other populations that are Shomrei Torah. With them, you have a ta'anah, for example the hatred between different chasidic groups, or the hatred between the actual religious DL population and the chareidim. But the group Slifkin belongs to are not our brothers, they are not אחיך במצוות. They are secularists, they don't value what we value, of course they would hate people whose main value is religion, and who wield political power.
This is besides the point, but of course you can find plenty of answers to the question of "Why do people hate Jews?" as well. "Is there no possible reason why people hate Jews? You can't conceive of ANY possible reason?" Just look on any antisemitic/pro-Palestinian website, or read any of the hundreds of books of antisemitic literature. You will find plenty of reasons for resentment against Jews. And many of the reasons have some validity. We don't like talking about it, but our enemies have no problem talking about it.
I think hate is a strong and probably misplaced word. I feel that resentment and perhaps antipathy are probably more accurate. I think people feel that chareidim* act as bullies and gaslighters
I think that what @Happy said above is a good example: “Gra only applies to people that are brothers. That would include within chareidim and other populations that are Shomrei Torah…But the group Slifkin belongs to are not our brothers.”
Suddenly millions of Jews are no longer “brothers” as they have been believed to be for thousands of years.
The chief rabbinate and chareidim don’t recognize reform and conservative and many Orthodox Jews as even being Jewish and practicing Judaism. Intentionally driving a wedge between the (relatively) small group of Chareidim
and the much larger group of non-Orthodox and non-chareidi Jews; though these other brothers of ours have the same blood in their veins from the same lines of Jews going back for many many generations. Instead of just practicing Judaism how they feel most appropriate and letting others practice those other feels most appropriate (as Rav JB Soloveitchik describes religion in “Confrontation” as an immensely personal experience - my paraphrasing) what they are doing is saying “my way is right, and yours is wrong, yours is not even Jewish” More gaslighting and bullying.
They ignore the truth of a pluralistic world and the self-truths of millions of of brother and sister Jews.
*disclaimer - lots of generalizations; not universally applicable.
"I think hate is a strong and probably misplaced word. I feel that resentment and perhaps antipathy are probably more accurate."
Valuable! Cheers!
"The chief rabbinate and chareidim don’t recognize reform and conservative and many Orthodox Jews as even being Jewish and practicing Judaism."
"...as ... practicing Judaism." Correct. They don't recognize them as practicing Judaism.
"...as even being Jewish". Wrong. They DO recognize them as being Jewish, but of course! their mothers are Jewish and so are they. The chief rabbis and the Chareidim are Jewish for that reason too.
@Jeffrey, it's only suddenly if you haven't read the words of Rambam's comm. on the Mishna Sanhedrin 10:1 recently (translated by Sefaria, capitalization added).
"And when a person believes in all of these principles and his faith in them is clarified, he enters into the category of Israel; and it is [then] a commandment to love him and to have mercy upon him and to act with him according to everything which God, may He be blessed, commanded about the a man towards his fellow, regarding love and brotherhood. And even if he does what is in his ability from the sins, because of desire and the overpowering of his base nature (=corrupted chareidim & others...), he is punished according to his sins, but he [still] has a share in the world to come, and is [only considered to be] from the sinners of Israel. But if one of these principles becomes compromised for a person, behold, HE EXITS THE CATEGORY OF ISRAEL and denies a fundamental [dogma] and is called an apostate, a heretic and 'someone who cuts the plantings.' And it is a commandment to hate him and to destroy him, and about him it is stated (Psalms 139:21), "Do I not hate those that You hate, O Lord."
https://www.sefaria.org/Rambam_on_Mishnah_Sanhedrin.10.1.30?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en
There's some important nuance to add, but it doesn't mitigate the thrust of his message; perhaps for another time.
@Don,
We should recall that when the Rambam was writing some 800+ years ago, if a person decided to do things which Rambam branded as being heretical (and not everyone in his generation, or other earlier / later generations agreed with him about what (or even whether) beliefs or certain actions make someone a heretic) that person was essentially stepping away from mainstream Jewish society.
Today, that does not apply to reform or conservative Jews; there are in fact millions of them - a community larger in fact than the Orthodox. (That was one of the main points of my comment above: that there are “millions of Jews” who identify that way). So they are specifically NOT stepping away from the Jewish community; they are firmly within it.
Those comments from the Rambam are simply inapplicable to today’s reality.
@Jeffrey, numbers are meaningless.
You also repeat a central or <i>the</i> central idea of reform ideology, that Halacha can't coexist with current "reality".
For the benefit of those who consider the words of our authorities timeless, let me cite the following:
וגם כי בענין האהבה לכל אדם שהובאה בספרים, ידוע מאמר חז״ל באבות דר׳ נתן פט״ז: אהוב את כל אדם ושנא את האפיקורסין ואת המינים, וכמו שכתב הרמב״ם בפירוש המשניות פ׳ חלק שכל שנתבררה אמונתו בהי״ג עיקרים הוא נכנס בכלל ישראל ומצוה לאהבו ולרחם עליו ולנהוג עמו בכל מה שצוה השם יתברך איש לחברו מן האהבה והאחוה ואפילו עשה מה שיכול מן העברות מחמת התאוה והתגברות הטבע הגרוע הוא נענש כפי חטאו, אבל יש לו חלק לעולם הבא והוא מפושעי ישראל, וכשנתקלקל לאדם יסוד מאלה היסודות, הרי יצא מן הכלל וכפר בעיקר ונקרא מין ואפיקורוס וקוצץ בנטיעות ומצוה לשונאו ולאבדו, ועליו נאמר: הלא משנאיך ה׳ אשנא. וכן במורה נבוכים ח״א פל״ו כתב, שנקרא אויב ושונא וצר וק״ו מעובד עבודה זרה שנאמר בם לא תחיה כל נשמה. וכן בפרק י״א מהלכות עדות כתב, שהם גרועים מהעכו״ם, וכמו שכתב האבן עזרא בפ׳ יתרו והספורנו בפ׳ ויקרא והעקרים מאמר א׳ פי״ד. (וצ״ל שמה שהביא הסמ״ג סוף מצוה פא מקרא דירמיהו שאפילו אלו שמותר לשנאותם הזהירה תורה לרחם עליהם ולעזרם בעת הצורך, כמפורש בחמור שונאך, נמי לא מיירי במינים, ואף על גב שהביא מירמיהו לא—לו אם ימדו שמים וגו' גם אני אמאס בכל זרע ישראל על כל אשר עשו לי, צ״ל דאפיקורסים יצאו גם מכלל זרע ישראל). וברמב״ם
וברמב״ם פ״ב מהלכות עכו״ם ה״ה כתב, שהאפיקורסים אינם כישראל לדבר מן הדברים. ומה שמצינו שמוסר כישראל הוא לענין שגיטו גט וקידושיו קידושין וקונה בישראל, ולענין לפני עור לא תתן מכשול, כבר חילק הטור ביורה־דעה סוף סי׳ רסח בין עניני הרחקה וחבורו עם ישראל ובין דיניו וחיוביו הוא עצמו. ואף על גב שבעצם ודאי ישראל הוא ובניו שיולדו ממנו כל קדושת ישראל עליהם, אבל בהנהגתו וההנהגה עמו גרוע הוא מהעכו״ם, וכמו אדם שנטרפה דעתו שבעצם הוא אדם בעל שכל והבנים שיולדו ממנו יכולים להיות בעלי שכל ומכל מקום בהנהגה עמו הוא גרוע מבעל חי והוא מועד להזיק בין את עצמו בין את האחרים יותר מבעל חי. אלא שמו״ח זצ״ל באר שגם גודל השנאה מרוב אהבה ואחוה היא, ומגודל הצער על שאחיו בן ישראל מטמא את נשמתו הקדושה. וזהו שהכתוב מתפלא: תכלית שנאה שנאתים, שזה מראה על גודל אחוותי, והם לאויבים היו לי. וידוע מאמרו של הגרח״ס זצ״ל, שהשנאה והמחלוקת עם רשעים צריכה להיות כשנאת הבעלים להעכברים שמצטער על שישנם וצריך לבערם, ולא כהחתול הנהנה ממה שיש לו מה לבער ולאכול, שזהו כרוצה בקיומו. ונראה שזהו מה שכתב כתומר דבורה סוף פרק ב׳: ואפילו הרשעים יאהב אותם בלבו ויאמר מי יתן ויהיו אלו צדיקים שבים בתשובה.
@Don,
Ummm, no. I did not say "Halacha can't coexist with current 'reality'." I never suggested such a thing. I think you just made that up out of whole cloth.
what I said was simply (I mean you can scroll up to see what I wrote) but essentially that at a time in history being "heretical" (for example from Rambam's perspective as mentioned in your quote (which you did not provide a source for) not believing in the 13 Ikarim) meant a conscious decision to leave the fold of the Jewish people (per your quote "Yatza Min HaKlal"). That simply is not the case today.
The views and beliefs within Judaism are extremely diverse. This is why numbers are not meaningless - the fact that millions of Jews don't agree with you, means that there is a huge population of Jews who remain Jewish and do not jettison their Judaism simply by doing things which you (or perhaps the Rambam) deem heretical). (almost) no one leaves the fold of the Jewish people due to one belief or another. Admittedly, there are very few Jews - often ex-Chareidim - who find that their new beliefs and world views are incompatible with their Judaism and do still intentionally leave the fold. Most however remain strongly tied to the Jewish people and intentionally so.
It's not a knock on the Rambam; society has simply evolved so that his "givens" have changed and therefore his deductions are simply no longer accurate.
Since you decided to post the above, please provide the source citation; also who are the people quoted that I am not familiar with the abbreviations: שמו״ח, הגרח״ס ? thanks
Let me modify what I wrote: You also repeat a central or <i>the</i> central idea of reform ideology, that [SOMETIMES] Halacha can't coexist with current "reality".
There's a Halacha to love people. Rambam rules that with regard to heretics etc. you are exempt. Are Jewish heretics our brothers? Yes and no, but predominantly no. For love--no. As expressed by Tur Y. D. the end of #268 he is no longer Jewish in the sense that we distance him. For example, his bread is Pas Akum. The Tur gives examples of how OTOH he remains Jewish.
The rest of your comment has much equivocation. You might mean that heretics are absolutely wrong despite that they are the majority. But being they are in the majority we must relate to them kindly, as their attitudes are irresistibly produced by the herd. And we must find pleasant ways, where available, to bring them back. That would be Halachicly sound.
I am much more comfortable with the term resentment. I have no problem with people resenting Israel/Jews either, to the extent that their complaints have validity (which many of them do).
It is not "suddenly" that millions of Jews are no longer brothers, they have abandoned the Torah, so on a very important level, they are not our brothers. The same has been true for thousands of years, whether with Sadducees, Karaites, willing converts to Christianity, and now with Reform/Conservative/secular. Perhaps they are תנוקות שנשבו, and it is their corrupt leaders who are to blame. And yes, on another level, those who are halachically Jewish are still our brothers, albeit our very, very estranged brothers.
@Happy,
Your comment, like Don’s, misses the point. These millions of Jews have NOT “abandoned the Torah,” they simply view it differently than you do.
Your comments about “tinokot
SheNishbu” and “corrupt leaders” and comparisons to “sadducees” or “Karaites” all just continue the same problem which leads to the resentment I was highlighting above.
Certain Chareidim (and potentially other Orthodox; and probably billions of people around the world) harbor feelings of elitism, superiority, triumphalism, however you want to label it. “We are the only ones who do Jewish correctly… the others on my left are all wrong …they are babies … tinokot… corrupt…etc.”.
Really they’re just as Jewish as the rest of us. They might just be trying to connect with Judaism in the way they believe to be most authentic just as we all are. You could just as easily compare them to the Chasidic movement in the time of the Gra as you could to the Karraites. It’s just different from how you do it; not necessarily intrinsically better or worse than what you do.
Time will tell. In 500 years, they’ll either still be part of the Jewish story or not; same can be said of you; of me; of all of us.
The finger pointing ; the we’re right, you’re wrong; the using the power of the state to enforce that argument today… those things lead to resentment.
Sorry, the Helenists, Sadducees, Karaites, and Christians said the EXACT same thing as you- "We didn't abandon the Torah, we simply view it differently than you". They are just as Jewish as you are, right? Would you listen to anti-vaxxers who say "We aren't anti-science, we just view it differently"?
You can justify yourselves however you want, you can tell yourselves whatever stories you want, you can make up new terms and change the definition of old ones, but...but...reality comes calling. You abandoned the Torah. Calling you guys babies is the biggest compliment, you are not truly wicked, you are just hopelessly ignorant about the most important things. And it is your wicked leaders, both political and intellectual leaders, who should know better, who are to blame. And perhaps we share the blame as well.
The comparison to the Chasidic movement is laughable and just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Now, there are many Jewish groups that I have profound disagreements with, but I don't view them this way. For example, I profoundly disagree with Chasidim on many matters. I profoundly disagree with the Israeli Chareidi approach to education and (not) working for a living. I profoundly disagree with Religious Zionist's tolerance of secularism. To me, a particular strand of the American Yeshivish path is "best" (although I recognize that different approaches may work for different people). But I consider all the above mentioned groups to be my brothers.
However, there comes a point where it is not just a matter of profound disagreement over this matter or that, but a fundamental, unbridgeable divide in values. This is what happened with the Helenists, Sadducees, Karaites, Christians, and now the Reform, Conservative, and Secularists. We fundamentally do not share the same values (at least any more than those we share with non-Jews). These people are my brothers only by blood, by distant blood, in the same way a seventh-generation American descended from German immigrants in 1869 is a "brother" of modern Germans in Germany.
Of course you are correct that this drives resentment, just like we were resented by the Christians all these years. Just don't pretend that your primitive feeling of resentment is any more "enlightened" than plain old-fashioned anti-semitism.
@Happy,
No need to apologize. Listen, it is what it is. It’s human nature to have a need to be “right” and those you disagree with to be “wrong”.
It’s not just you. You don’t need to apologize of feel bad about it. As I specifically said above: “probably billions of people around the world[] harbor feelings of elitism, superiority, triumphalism, however you want to label it”
You’re just like almost everyone else in the world (myself included, unfortunately; though
It is something - personal character flaw maybe, innate defense mechanism from millions of years of evolution perhaps - that I try to work on and improve).
As long as you ( & me, all of us ) understand that such heavy handed perspectives breed resentment, indignation, etc.
It’s different than anti-Semitism; however. Antisemitism has been historically aimed at the smallest of nations with the least power in all societies where they lived. Jews who had little if anything to do with the majority populations who they lived near. Chareidim (along with many other orthodox and yes some reform and conservative Jews too) however can’t seem to just live and let live. They all want to be the ones to decide who can be Jewish and who can’t. Who’s in and who’s out. Who’s right and who’s wrong. And that’s part of the problem. Everyone thinks they have the right to define the other.
And then chareidim take it an additional step - beyond their own personal opinions in their own Shuls: with the power of the chief rabbinate and coalitions in the Knesset, they try to make laws impacting on others. (Just like the popes of old).
Jeff, I gotta hand it to you. You are seriously the most confused and ignorant commenter on RJ. Quite an accomplishment indeed! Judaism is clearly defined by its laws (think Torah, Talmud, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch etc...). As happy pointed out earlier in the thread, this is not the 'Chareidi' position. This is what DEFINES Jews as Jews. The same way H2O is what DEFINES water. And the same way night is night and day is day. Now if someone wants to create a new religion where they refer to day as night or sand as water, kol hakavod. But objectively, it's simply NOT TRUE.
I guess being that you are a product of modern secular society where men can 'identify' as women and vice versa, you have difficulty with this concept. You can 'identify' as Jewish or trans or whatever the heck you want. But don't be surprised if sane people just cluck their tongues sympathetically and don't share your delusions!
It’s human nature to have a need for those who you DISAGREE with to be “right”. That way, hopefully, you take away THEIR right to consider YOU "wrong".
וכעין שצוה כנען את בניו אהבו זה את זה וכו' בפסחים קיג: כידוע
Thanks, I appreciate your understanding. As I indicated before, I agree that such a perspective inevitably breeds resentment. It is a burden we carry.
I don't agree about anti-Semitism, however. Jews historically had a lot to do with the majority population, they were inextricably entangled with them economically. They had significant commercial power which bred much resentment. A good deal of this power was that Jews coordinated amongst themselves much more effectively than the majority, and did this to their maximum advantage, similar to the "power" the Israeli chareidi minority has today. And if you read Christian anti-Semitic literature, one recurring complaint is that Jews think they're so much better than Christians and view them as lower than dogs (and this complaint was not that inaccurate). Some things never change. I am not justifying anitsemitism, however, we should not lie to ourselves and think it was simply irrational hatred.
And of course the same is with hating Israel/Zionists. "Why do people hate Israel? You can't conceive of ANY possible reason?" And we all know the answer to that, unfortunately.
So this is the author's explanation explaining why it is logical to hate Haredim? Replace the word 'Haredim' with the word 'Jew' in this article and you have a pefect article written by Goebles in DeSturmer.......
But how is what is written here characteristic of Jews?
In Ashdod, the chareidim make up a third of the population, and the separate beach is less than 10% , and let’s not forget how many people come to Ashdod beach in the summer from bnei brak, yerushalayim etc., so I don’t see much of an issue with them asking for more beach space.
I think that you honestly have a mental block on anything chareidi…..
<<doubling the payments to people in yeshivah and kollel...>>
The word doubling sounds scary, but what's the actual amount? A whopping 750 shekels a month? What's about pensioners who come to Israel from former Soviet republics (half of which are not even Jewish) and get 6,000/month per person?
If the black population in the US will receive $350,000 a head for "slavery reparations", and the Arabs receive billions curtesy of Benett/Lapid, do you blame the Chareidi population for rioting too?
How dare the Chareidim ask for something that they deserve by law in proportion to their population!
Let me get this straight- you want Chareidim to go to the army, pay full taxes, and not receive any governmental benefits that rightfully belong to then based on their proportion to the population because ot might cause resentment! Chareidim are not people, so their rights don't matter.
If this was a gay beach, of course the beach would be approved, despite there being less of a reason for gays to receive their own beach than the chareidim.
Only the chareidim are expected to participate in Israeli society and not receive the benefits they deserve due to resentment.
Who's saying they're to participate and get no benefits? R. Slifkin is saying that the fact they expect benefits despite lack of participation causes resentment--as does their desire to impose their values on the rest of the society.
This is missing the point. If charedim were to join the military, that would significantly change the entire calculus.
@Rami, your parameters of contribution/participation are limited by what's natural. Indeed, those who entire picture consists only of nature will be upset with the Chareidim for their lack of this contribution/participation. But in their view they contribute to the national weal by learning Torah & observing Halacha and are entitled to any spoils any other winning party would take. Having said that, I don't see the wisdom of some of their requests. Since there are those upset with them, why not ask for less so as not to upset them more?
Rabbi, I love the Sufgania next to my name! Cheers!
(Can you put all the comments on the same page as the post? It's inconvenient to have to switch pages when having to compare the comments & the post. Either way, Cheers!)
Yes, please!!
Is this post a straw man, or have you examples of figures in the chareidi world expressing bewilderment at the fact that others resent them?
Look at the comment from Asher Linsky.
Is Asher Linsky chareidi?
Not nearly rude, thanks. I gather from what you say that even without a public pronouncement, it's safe to assume the sentiment exists and likely is prevalent.