They have the same right to negotiate their participation in the government as any other party. Of course, Bibi can turn them down. There can be give and take. This is part of a multi-party system.
The haredim represent a significant sector. They have the right to give input.
I think the post misses the point of what's going on.
When you give a small group bargaining leverage, they can overreach, like in US politics where people want to decide who else can get married or who else can have abortions.
Of course they're being unreasonable -- isn't it clear that that's what leverage is used for? You usually don't need leverage to promote reasonable positions. And since they didn't arrive at their positions with reason, you can't reason them out of their positions.
So just like these kollel salaries that you're so against, everything else they ask for is also going to be unfortunate. But we already knew that -- isn't that why we call it politics?
And yes, Avraham, the title did ask this. But I think even Slifkin knows who decides (Netanyahu) and who should decide (the legitimate head of government, in this case, again, Netanyahu). So, to me, he must have been asking on a more philosophical level, perhaps more precisely constructed as 'who should we want to decide?'
The title asks who should decide. The final decision is Bbi's. (he already announced that he will not agree). The hareidim, though, have every right to bring it up in negotiations. One never knows if a party to negotiations is only bringing up something as a bargaining chip Give up something about which they do not really care to get something about which they do care.
They don't even have the right to participate in the elections. Because they do not recognize equal duties for all voters in elections, nor equal rights for all. What they are doing is election robbery and bribery: you will give it to us - and to us only - otherwise you will not have a country, which we loathe anyway and is as interesting to us as last year's snow. Those who surrender to them engage in electoral bribery.
Generating electricity is constantly happening. Once you turn on a hydroelectric dam or power plant, it keeps churning out electricity until you shut it down. And shutting it down is a big deal. It’s not like flicking a light switch on and off.
It seems to me (not a rabbi of any denomination) that since it was already flowing before Shabbat, it could and should be allowed to continue to flow during Shabbat.
If individuals choose not to use that electricity, that’s their choice. I wonder if these same individuals turn off their refrigerators before Shabbat? It’s drawing power and keeping the food from spoiling. Can you imagine every refrigerator in the country going down 18 minutes before Shabbat? It’s absurd.
From a halachic perspective, I think the poskim got electricity all wrong. They imagined it as a sort of fire going through the wires, ready to break out and start a “new flame” any time.
That might have been true in the early days of incandescent bulbs, which did in fact spontaneously burst into flame.
Electricity is more like water; it keeps flowing until it meets a switch that stops the flow. That’s more like your toilet, which fills with water until the “switch” (aka the float) turns it off.
Modern LED lighting does not generate heat, and cannot spontaneously burst into flame.
It’s time for a revision in our “understanding” of electricity, based on a 19th century misunderstanding, which resulted in Halacha that no longer makes sense in the 21st century.
There are different opinions regarding electricity. Rav Kook showed that the word אש has several meanings in Tanach. However, other poskim gave other reasons for the prohibition un different circumstances. Lighting an incandescent light is certainly starting a halachic fire as it gives off light and heat. It has nothing to do with bursting into flame.
We agree on the fact that incandescent bulbs give off light and heat is a byproduct. However, modern LED lights do not give off heat at all, and can be touched even while lit. Therefore, it is not in the same category as incandescent bulbs. A reappraisal is due, but we seem to be “stuck” with the argument of over a century ago.
You are correct. According to the Chazon Ish it is building a current. Rav Shlomo Zalman considers it to be a rabbinic prohibition. A case could be made for it to be completing a utensil as the bulb is useless as is.
The biggest decision facing PM Netanyahu will be facing comes January 1, is anointing a successor. (He's 74, don't expect an 83 year old President Biden situation. Won't work in Israel.)
And they want input, or rather control over him (her).
What is interesting to me is the request for the government to restrict the phone number transfer ability. Apparently they don't trust themselves to stay with their kosher phones. The amount of Torah available on the modern phone is breath taking: countless hours of shiurim, sefarim, responsa. There is shtuyot too but so is a walk down a modern street. I never leave home (except Shabbat) without my electronic Torah in my pocket. (halachteha ba derech...)
These are all issues that should not be decided by government in the fist place. Why does government decide how many kosher beaches there are or whether you should be allowed to change your phone service and keep the same number? Once you legitimize the concept of a paternalistic government you must accept the ridiculous outcomes that ensue.
Protect the freedom of the individual and allow the market to decide how much transportation costs or whether there is a demand for institutions to answer halachic questions.
This is socialism, if you like it, then accept it even when the people you don't like end up in charge.
What an ubelieveablly STUPID and LAZY post! If you "have no idea" then how can you say they are not qualified! Because Charedim are BAD BAD BAD so anything they suggest is BAD BAD BAD. At the very least do a minimal amount of research before mouthing off. My Goodness!
I don't know if the chareidi politicians are qualified to make halachic decisions about power plants on Shabbos (although I suspect they have qualified poskim who they listen to), but one thing I do know:
The secularists, mechallelei Shabbos, and kofrim, who represent the majority of the country, are most definitely not qualified to make any decisions that have anything to do with Judaism or the Jewish community at all. In fact, they have no right to be in the country in the first place, and it is only in the merit of the Shomrei Torah that they are able to exist there. Compared to them, the chareidi politicians are EMINENTLY qualified.
Why do the secularists, mechallelei shabbos and koform have no right to be in the country? Do you not accept we are still in golus, in which case the land formerly known as Eretz Yisroel can be occupied by anybody? Or are you saying we are not quite in golus any more, in which case there are restrictions who should be living in that land. I don't believe you hold of the latter.
The Torah says that people who don't observe the Torah have no right to be in the land, and that in fact Hashem will kick them out, and that is where the state of golus comes from in the first place. The fact that they return while continuing to sin does not automatically give them the right that the Torah took away from them. On the other hand, it is certainly possible that we are in a state of קיבוץ גליות right now, and the secularists, mechallelei shabbos, and kofrim will eventually do teshuva, they or their children.
Ein golus acher golus. Once we have been kicked out, that's it. Or are you suggesting that non Jews are free to live their committing all sorts of heinous aveiros, but Jews cannot. That is not logical. Irreligious Jews have as much right nowadays to live in Israel as anyone else.
You think the golus is completely over, Mashiach has arrived, and Hashem has decided to retract everything in the Torah and Neviim regarding Torah observance? Uh.... maybe you should rethink that. Even if we are in the process of קיבוץ גליות now, the secularists, mechallelei shabbos, and kofrim will not survive long-term, unless they do teshuva. וְיָצְא֣וּ וְרָא֔וּ בְּפִגְרֵי֙ הָאֲנָשִׁ֔ים הַפֹּשְׁעִ֖ים בִּ֑י כִּ֣י תוֹלַעְתָּ֞ם לֹ֣א תָמ֗וּת וְאִשָּׁם֙ לֹ֣א תִכְבֶּ֔ה וְהָי֥וּ דֵרָא֖וֹן לְכָל־בָּשָֽׂר׃. But I am optimistic they will eventually do teshuva.
Who said the non-Jews have a right to be in Israel? They don't. Neither goyim nor irreligious Jews have a right to live in Israel. Perish the thought.
Huh?? I was agreeing with your reasoning- "Or are you suggesting that non Jews are free to live their committing all sorts of heinous aveiros, but Jews cannot." Are you asking me to explain your reasoning to you??
"When asked about how the mass-kollel system is supposed to work on large and growing scale, they have no answer - they haven’t even thought about it."
But their answer is in your post! ("They got him to agree to doubling the payments given to people who choose not to work and instead register in kollel/yeshivah, and who raise their children to do the same.")
I picked up on that point, Amitai, but I figured that Slifkin meant a sustainable, long term solution. And sustainable in the sense that it won't be in danger of reversal with the next administration, which can easily be 4 months away if this government collapses.
Maybe they can figure out a way to prevent government collapses.
I agree with 99% of your positions and own all your books. That said, coming out against halachic innovations that won't impose on others is not a good look.
If the government can have only arabs run the power station on Shabbos, or figure out another way to generate electricity, what could be wrong?
My main gripe with UTJ is that they constantly put kollel funding in place of actually caring about other Jews. Here is the first time they are actively trying to improve the lot of the secular, with increased religious education. Why cant you agree with them?
Also, why point out the segregrated beaches and say you have what to say but not say it? do you agree or not? Any unbiased observer who has been reading you recently would probably conclude as I did that you are against it.
"If the government can have only arabs run the power station on Shabbos, or figure out another way to generate electricity, what could be wrong?" That is an ENORMOUS "if" which UTJ did NOT put in their demand.
"Also, why point out the segregrated beaches and say you have what to say but not say it? do you agree or not?" I was merely listing their demands.
They have the same right to negotiate their participation in the government as any other party. Of course, Bibi can turn them down. There can be give and take. This is part of a multi-party system.
The haredim represent a significant sector. They have the right to give input.
You seem to be missing the point of the post.
I think the post misses the point of what's going on.
When you give a small group bargaining leverage, they can overreach, like in US politics where people want to decide who else can get married or who else can have abortions.
Of course they're being unreasonable -- isn't it clear that that's what leverage is used for? You usually don't need leverage to promote reasonable positions. And since they didn't arrive at their positions with reason, you can't reason them out of their positions.
So just like these kollel salaries that you're so against, everything else they ask for is also going to be unfortunate. But we already knew that -- isn't that why we call it politics?
And yes, Avraham, the title did ask this. But I think even Slifkin knows who decides (Netanyahu) and who should decide (the legitimate head of government, in this case, again, Netanyahu). So, to me, he must have been asking on a more philosophical level, perhaps more precisely constructed as 'who should we want to decide?'
The title asks who should decide. The final decision is Bbi's. (he already announced that he will not agree). The hareidim, though, have every right to bring it up in negotiations. One never knows if a party to negotiations is only bringing up something as a bargaining chip Give up something about which they do not really care to get something about which they do care.
They don't even have the right to participate in the elections. Because they do not recognize equal duties for all voters in elections, nor equal rights for all. What they are doing is election robbery and bribery: you will give it to us - and to us only - otherwise you will not have a country, which we loathe anyway and is as interesting to us as last year's snow. Those who surrender to them engage in electoral bribery.
If I remember correctly, as each power station is connected to at least one hospital, all electricity production can be defined as pikuach nefesh.
Generating electricity is constantly happening. Once you turn on a hydroelectric dam or power plant, it keeps churning out electricity until you shut it down. And shutting it down is a big deal. It’s not like flicking a light switch on and off.
It seems to me (not a rabbi of any denomination) that since it was already flowing before Shabbat, it could and should be allowed to continue to flow during Shabbat.
If individuals choose not to use that electricity, that’s their choice. I wonder if these same individuals turn off their refrigerators before Shabbat? It’s drawing power and keeping the food from spoiling. Can you imagine every refrigerator in the country going down 18 minutes before Shabbat? It’s absurd.
From a halachic perspective, I think the poskim got electricity all wrong. They imagined it as a sort of fire going through the wires, ready to break out and start a “new flame” any time.
That might have been true in the early days of incandescent bulbs, which did in fact spontaneously burst into flame.
Electricity is more like water; it keeps flowing until it meets a switch that stops the flow. That’s more like your toilet, which fills with water until the “switch” (aka the float) turns it off.
Modern LED lighting does not generate heat, and cannot spontaneously burst into flame.
It’s time for a revision in our “understanding” of electricity, based on a 19th century misunderstanding, which resulted in Halacha that no longer makes sense in the 21st century.
Keep quiet.
They're going to call for banning plumbing fixtures next.
Don't even have to flick a switch on or off.
Just let the produced electricity go to . . .
There are different opinions regarding electricity. Rav Kook showed that the word אש has several meanings in Tanach. However, other poskim gave other reasons for the prohibition un different circumstances. Lighting an incandescent light is certainly starting a halachic fire as it gives off light and heat. It has nothing to do with bursting into flame.
We agree on the fact that incandescent bulbs give off light and heat is a byproduct. However, modern LED lights do not give off heat at all, and can be touched even while lit. Therefore, it is not in the same category as incandescent bulbs. A reappraisal is due, but we seem to be “stuck” with the argument of over a century ago.
You are correct. According to the Chazon Ish it is building a current. Rav Shlomo Zalman considers it to be a rabbinic prohibition. A case could be made for it to be completing a utensil as the bulb is useless as is.
This is obviously not about electric production.
The biggest decision facing PM Netanyahu will be facing comes January 1, is anointing a successor. (He's 74, don't expect an 83 year old President Biden situation. Won't work in Israel.)
And they want input, or rather control over him (her).
What is interesting to me is the request for the government to restrict the phone number transfer ability. Apparently they don't trust themselves to stay with their kosher phones. The amount of Torah available on the modern phone is breath taking: countless hours of shiurim, sefarim, responsa. There is shtuyot too but so is a walk down a modern street. I never leave home (except Shabbat) without my electronic Torah in my pocket. (halachteha ba derech...)
They're only interested in Torah from appropriate (their definition of appropriate) sources.
These are all issues that should not be decided by government in the fist place. Why does government decide how many kosher beaches there are or whether you should be allowed to change your phone service and keep the same number? Once you legitimize the concept of a paternalistic government you must accept the ridiculous outcomes that ensue.
Protect the freedom of the individual and allow the market to decide how much transportation costs or whether there is a demand for institutions to answer halachic questions.
This is socialism, if you like it, then accept it even when the people you don't like end up in charge.
And eventually, they always will.
How about FREE ISRAEL from socialism.
What an ubelieveablly STUPID and LAZY post! If you "have no idea" then how can you say they are not qualified! Because Charedim are BAD BAD BAD so anything they suggest is BAD BAD BAD. At the very least do a minimal amount of research before mouthing off. My Goodness!
I don't know if the chareidi politicians are qualified to make halachic decisions about power plants on Shabbos (although I suspect they have qualified poskim who they listen to), but one thing I do know:
The secularists, mechallelei Shabbos, and kofrim, who represent the majority of the country, are most definitely not qualified to make any decisions that have anything to do with Judaism or the Jewish community at all. In fact, they have no right to be in the country in the first place, and it is only in the merit of the Shomrei Torah that they are able to exist there. Compared to them, the chareidi politicians are EMINENTLY qualified.
Why do the secularists, mechallelei shabbos and koform have no right to be in the country? Do you not accept we are still in golus, in which case the land formerly known as Eretz Yisroel can be occupied by anybody? Or are you saying we are not quite in golus any more, in which case there are restrictions who should be living in that land. I don't believe you hold of the latter.
The Torah says that people who don't observe the Torah have no right to be in the land, and that in fact Hashem will kick them out, and that is where the state of golus comes from in the first place. The fact that they return while continuing to sin does not automatically give them the right that the Torah took away from them. On the other hand, it is certainly possible that we are in a state of קיבוץ גליות right now, and the secularists, mechallelei shabbos, and kofrim will eventually do teshuva, they or their children.
Ein golus acher golus. Once we have been kicked out, that's it. Or are you suggesting that non Jews are free to live their committing all sorts of heinous aveiros, but Jews cannot. That is not logical. Irreligious Jews have as much right nowadays to live in Israel as anyone else.
You think the golus is completely over, Mashiach has arrived, and Hashem has decided to retract everything in the Torah and Neviim regarding Torah observance? Uh.... maybe you should rethink that. Even if we are in the process of קיבוץ גליות now, the secularists, mechallelei shabbos, and kofrim will not survive long-term, unless they do teshuva. וְיָצְא֣וּ וְרָא֔וּ בְּפִגְרֵי֙ הָאֲנָשִׁ֔ים הַפֹּשְׁעִ֖ים בִּ֑י כִּ֣י תוֹלַעְתָּ֞ם לֹ֣א תָמ֗וּת וְאִשָּׁם֙ לֹ֣א תִכְבֶּ֔ה וְהָי֥וּ דֵרָא֖וֹן לְכָל־בָּשָֽׂר׃. But I am optimistic they will eventually do teshuva.
Who said the non-Jews have a right to be in Israel? They don't. Neither goyim nor irreligious Jews have a right to live in Israel. Perish the thought.
I don't think anything. I am trying to work out what you think.
What is your source that goyim have no right to live in Israel whilst we are in golus?
Huh?? I was agreeing with your reasoning- "Or are you suggesting that non Jews are free to live their committing all sorts of heinous aveiros, but Jews cannot." Are you asking me to explain your reasoning to you??
"When asked about how the mass-kollel system is supposed to work on large and growing scale, they have no answer - they haven’t even thought about it."
But their answer is in your post! ("They got him to agree to doubling the payments given to people who choose not to work and instead register in kollel/yeshivah, and who raise their children to do the same.")
I picked up on that point, Amitai, but I figured that Slifkin meant a sustainable, long term solution. And sustainable in the sense that it won't be in danger of reversal with the next administration, which can easily be 4 months away if this government collapses.
Maybe they can figure out a way to prevent government collapses.
Are you literally coming out against more segregated beaches? That's a new low.
Did you literally not read the post? That's a new low, even for you.
I agree with 99% of your positions and own all your books. That said, coming out against halachic innovations that won't impose on others is not a good look.
If the government can have only arabs run the power station on Shabbos, or figure out another way to generate electricity, what could be wrong?
My main gripe with UTJ is that they constantly put kollel funding in place of actually caring about other Jews. Here is the first time they are actively trying to improve the lot of the secular, with increased religious education. Why cant you agree with them?
Also, why point out the segregrated beaches and say you have what to say but not say it? do you agree or not? Any unbiased observer who has been reading you recently would probably conclude as I did that you are against it.
"If the government can have only arabs run the power station on Shabbos, or figure out another way to generate electricity, what could be wrong?" That is an ENORMOUS "if" which UTJ did NOT put in their demand.
"Also, why point out the segregrated beaches and say you have what to say but not say it? do you agree or not?" I was merely listing their demands.
Rav Yisrael Rosen wrote this in תחומין .
https://www.zomet.org.il/?CategoryID=394&ArticleID=1010
Here at least is an informed voice.