Maybe stopping the non stop trashing of them as if it's a personal grudge would be more conducive to achdus. You be the bigger man, celebrate those of them that come and stop with the neo anti semitic Jew bashing. Your hatred is showing.
I dont have a personal grudge against the charedi world, but i have the moral honesty to say that I agree with RNS on this, - the Charedi world disinterest towards the hostages and general apathy about the Matzva in EY is most disappointing
To those who claim their learning is more valuable than anything else, where is the evidence of an uplift in their learning efforts? Are they organising new Sedorim? Are they opening new Shiurim?
Are they Davening with more Kavonoh? In the Charedi shuls I daven in, often people dont bother to say Tehillim after Mincha/Maariv, or if they do, they mumble their way through. And the same puerile elements who engage in Letzonus throughout Davening still do so, even while the Rabbi's Deroshoh refers to the tragedies in EY.
I think it's a result of ghettoisation that Charedim generally dont give a fig about anyone outside their own community. Even other Jews.
The more Charedi/Yeshivish/Chasidish, the more fragmented the community, so the more people to ignore.
This is just incredibly harsh , they started their zman early , there have been attzers tefillah (multiple times) in almost all kehillas. Tehillim for woman + special shiurim. I know for example a shul that every Monday and Thursday evening host extra tehillim and selichos. (Including yesterday a "Chareidi wide" Tefillah was called ) I know people (Charedim) that have cancelled vacations to be more sensitive to the situation. Yes they may not feel it as harshly as everyone else because they are less directly involved but they are certainly don't not care.
Shim, charedim go on vacations? I thought that bnei Torah spend all of their time learning. What right do they have to even consider going on a vacation?
It should be pretty obvious, no? Or are charedim so stick in their own bubble that they’ve lost the ability to even discern when something is inconsistent in their own ideology? 🤔
Oh so you are just being unnecessary condescending, sorry for giving you the benefit of the doubt. From that whole comment that's what you took? Why take my comment and twist it to be an anti chareidi insult? Its like a subset of antisemitism
Do you daven in other shuls, to have a proper point of comparison? A good davening can only be judged - if mortal man can judge it all - by how it looks compared to peers, not against what one imagines to be the proper "standard" of kavanah. And my friend, if you expect crowds of people to be saying tehillim, night after night and night, and with perfect concentration to boot, you are bound to be disappointed. You don't do that yourself either, and let us not pretend otherwise. לא ניתנה תורה למלאכי השרת
Ultimately everyone will have their own reason to come or not come.
These Jews who didn’t come simply decided standing up as being part of the Jewish during its hour of need is just not as important as whatever other considerations there were.
Actually, it really is that simple. You just decided to assume the worst of your fellow Jews. You made a decision to be terrible person today, which is far worse than those you are putting down.
Actually you’re the only one in this conversation putting anyone down. You’re the one calling someone “a terrible person” you’ve actually said that to me here, and in your other comment to me you said “shame on [my] mother” (not even sure what my righteous mother z”l has anything to do with this).
I never insulted anyone. I never put anyone down. I simply recognized that the people I described had other concerns that prevented them from coming.
In my other comments, I specified that for some those other concerns might be unavailable PTO from work, for others it might be Dr appointments that can’t be missed. And others.
These Jews had their own concerns. They are wrong. Full stop.
I’m not assuming the worst. I listened to what they said. They told me why.
They said: “its organizers and participants are not משלומי אמוני ישראל. And as is known, the opinion of our Rabbanim, z’tl whose mesorah we hold, warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah and Mesorah. And especially after the speakers’ schedule of the rally was published, and it is known to all that the main speakers are a mixture of people whose entire essence is the opposite of Torah and yirah and tzninus, r’l. Since then, the matter is simple – we must distance ourselves from them and the masses.” (Yeshiva world news). And they are wrong.
You never explained why they were wrong. You just brushed aside their concerns like they were nothing, while fully validating the concerns of those who don't have PTO or who have appointments. That seems extremely unfair...and wrong.
The **REAL** reason we are not going is simple. It's not the reason that you claim we profess, neither is it the reason that you suggest to be the real reason. Rather, the outlook of Chareidi Jewry vis-a-vis the state of Israel for the last 80 years has always been that we acknowledge that it serves a role in allowing us to live in Eretz Yisroel and work with the situation on the ground (unlike Satmar), yet we in no way endorse Zionism or feel that the actual State of Israel is a good thing or facilitating the Geulah. Yes, the fact that Jews are able to live in Eretz Yisroel and practice Judaism freely is a good thing and possibly the initial stages of the Geula, but the actual Zionist entity was founded as another cynical way to uproot Judaism, and secular Zionism still tries to do that until this very day.
Therefore, situations such as these put us into a real quandary. On the one hand, we are very much concerned about the situation in Eretz Yisroel, and daven a lot and send financial assistance (as well as check the news compulsively), but on the other hand, our Gedolim feel that it would be a massive chilul Hashem to have thousands of Chareidi Jews showing up to support a Zionistic function. Anyone capable of understanding nuance will have no trouble understanding this, but apparently, many of those who frequent this site do not.
Don’t get me wrong; most frum Jews are very dedicated to the Jewish people. And they live it and show it in their own ways. But they are 100% dead wrong on this issue.
They simply choose to not stand up and be counted when it counts. Jews are dying, the world is against us, and they choose to ignore the basic of the basic…. “Im ayn ani li, mi li?”
Everyone has concerns, there’s a big tent, and we are a dysfunctional family. But you either show up, or you don’t. They chose the “don’t.” They are wrong.
There is nothing complex about it. No nuance. Just wrong.
What incredibly reductionist thinking. These people, who care deeply about their fellow Jews, who organized countless hours of prayer gatherings and limud Torah in the merit of EY, who donated millions of dollars to help, had legitimate concerns which they voiced. And you simply assumed the worst in your fellow jews, showing that you are infinitely worse than those Jews who you come to denigrate. Shame on you and shame on your mother.
Well, no. I actually conceded that most frum Jews are dedicated to the Jewish people and do live it and show it in their own ways.
They are wrong on THIS issue. The “Gedolim” are wrong on THIS issue.
Standing up and being counted has immeasurable value.
They ignored “if I am not me for me, then who will be? If not now, when?”
THAT horrible mistake is on them.
Without doubt, other Jews have their own faults. But this one is squarely on a certain segment of the Jewish world.
I’m not assuming the worst in anyone. I’m simply recognizing the obvious fact that the “Gedolim” and many other Jews might be right sometimes and wrong sometimes. And in THIS particular issue, these were dead wrong.
" but the actual Zionist entity was founded as another cynical way to uproot Judaism"
This is ignorance. The State was founded by many different groups of Jews, each with their own agenda and vision. As such, the State's vision is a hybrid, reflecting both Torah and secular ideals. The extent that Torah Jewry failed to participate in ישוב ארץ ישראל, is reflected in the realities of the State today.
You don't like the מדינה? The go back in time and tell the Torah leadership that they shouldn't leave Zionism to the secular. More practically, change the State! Immigrate and vote for a party who's interest in forming policy is driven by a Torah vision rather than a narrow vision of army exemptions, money and jobs.
The same generalization that you make about chareidim's "narrow vision" (despite the fact that chareidim many different groups each with their own agendas and vision) can easily be applied to the early Zionists who founded the state, who were mostly secular, and so Oiberchochom is correct.
You mean why didn't frum Jews try to establish a Jewish state on their own, without the secularists? Apparently the Talmidei HaGra made some sort of attempt. Are you asking why they weren't successful?
The answer is they needed money, so they appealed to the non-religious community. And it was one decade that Chovavei Tzion flipped to being secular. Many religious completely bailed out, while the others founded Mizrachi.
And Mizrachi i.e. today national religious developed into a major religious movement with it's thrving school system , kollels, and leading Talmudei Chachamim. Not that they didn't have major Talmudei Chachamim to begin with.
They are already changing the state (perhaps not exactly the way you like, but I think there is already more achdus between the chareidim and the "serious" DLs and that is likely to increase), but I agree more chareidim should immigrate and further change it.
1) That is the current zeitgeist, but that is not in any way inherent in Charedi philosophy. Many of the intellectual forebears the mainstream non-eidah Ashkenazi Charedim were much more pro-Zionist to say nothing of the Sephardim who were simply Zionist; the notion of calling the state the "Zionist Enitity" would be completely foreign to them (BTW you should change terminology because that is the terminology of the Islamists). And of course the Agudah reversed course and supported the creation of the state.
2) Lots of frum Jews went, and the "massive Chillul Hashem" somehow did not materialize. So I guess you are saying the Gedolim were wrong.
3) The Agudah endorsed going to this supposedly "massive Chilllul Hashem".
4) This was not the reason given R Brudny for opposing the rally. He said that he didn't like the program. He did not oppose the cause.
Overall, I'd say that there is little evidence supporting your explanation.
David you are saying good about the reason why those particular Gedolim opposed going, not like Oiberchochom. But by the same token, it was not for Slifkin's reasons either.
"“However, despite the fact that all our hearts are pained and mourn the tzarah of the klal, we are conveying our opinion that no one who is ‘חרד לדבר ה’ should participate in the general rally that is being held, as its organizers and participants are not משלומי אמוני ישראל. And as is known, the opinion of our Rabbanim, z’tl whose mesorah we hold, warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah and Mesorah. And especially after the speakers’ schedule of the rally was published, and it is known to all that the main speakers are a mixture of people whose entire essence is the opposite of Torah and yirah and tzninus, r’l. Since then, the matter is simple – we must distance ourselves from them and the masses.”
Comparing that to A and B
"(A) they don’t want to validate an initiative that came from outside their community, (B) they don’t want to be part of a larger mission that stresses the achdus of a general Jewish identity rather than reinforcing a separate charedi identity"
It doesn't seem quite accurate at all, if anything the kol korei aligns better (but still not accurately) with Oiberchochom who says "our Gedolim feel that it would be a massive chilul Hashem to have thousands of Chareidi Jews showing up to support a Zionistic function" which roughly maps to "warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah and Mesorah."
(A) is not something that they are going to say directly so what they wrote is not by itself a proof, but when you attack something because of the people involved rather than because of what they are actually doing, this is fully consistent with A. The evidence for A comes from this being repeated over and over. So I don't think you can prove that A was part of it just from this case, but A was part of it.
(B) is spot on aligned. If you are going to join together with other Jews and you represent something less than 10% of the Jewish population (probably more like 5% or less) and you are on one extreme end of the Jewish spectrum, then you have two choices: join together with the other 90-95% of Jews who view things differently to support the continued existence of Israel, or else say that is more important to stay separate. The other groups put their differences aside to join together for this important mission, but this subset of Charedi Rabbis made staying separate from the others a more important value. I certainly was not happy with John Hagee being one of the speakers, but the joint support for Israel way overrides the presence of an objectionable person.
But A is completely his and your conjecture. The fact that it is repeated over and over is also consistent with the fact that "outside their community" over and over act in ways that are inconsistent with chareidim's perceived Torah values. You can call that being equivalent to A, but it's not. And if you are going by your own conjecture rather than what they actually say, that totally negates your objection to Oiberchochom, whose conjecture, which I think is inaccurate as well, is also consistent with what they do over and over.
B is still inaccurate. It's not that they don't inherently want to be part of a larger mission, it's that they have overriding objections. B is not the reason for why they don't want to go, it's the outcome of why they don't want to go.
Agudah did NOT change course and supported the creation of the secular state, revisionist history. They supported a Jewish Homeland, not a secular state.
I think that you are incorrect. They question before them whether they supported the creation of a Jewish state. They had opposed this prior and there were still a few stragglers like R Aharon Kotler.
The only historical evidence I am aware off that is used for this oft-made claim that Agudah changed their view on a secular zionist state is a letter sent by them following the Balfour declaration. That letter refers to a Jewish homeland only.
But if you have historical evidence for support for the sate, please link.
Fair enough, I will try to find more backing. But obviously their joining into the first government, even under pressure, indicates a level of support which was different from the complete opposition in Europe. You can interpret that in multiple ways, but certainly that is some evidence that they realized circumstances had changed and complete opposition was not longer feasible.
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
BREAKING: Angry British-Israeli guy ranting on substack declares that the people he's spent the last decade and a half trashing, mocking, and calling murderers, are perpetrating 'a tragedy and disgrace.' during the 'important time for achdus in Klal Yisrael.'
This is a developing story. Check back for further unhinged updates about the existential crisis chareidim represent to the state of Israel.
It's like the guys who used to scream "tolerance" (a word quietly dropped from the left-wing vocabulary during Covid/BLM riots) were the most intolerant of all. Here too - the guy talks "achdus" from one side of the mouth, while bashing entire communities with the other.
(I used to think this was tactical. Like counter-accusing to deflect from from the charges against you. And in many cases I think that's really why its done. But with NS I do believe its genuine cluelessness. He actually thinks he's doing Gods work. Verily I think, like so many anti-semites throughout history, he simply does not realize how he appears to others.)
Practical Divrei Chizuk for the Ben Aliyah in the Workplace, by Rav Yosef Simcha Klein, author of Ben Aliyah B'Olam HaParnassah.
Q: There is much talk in my workplace about the upcoming pro-Israel march scheduled for Tuesday in Washington. I don't know much of the details but I am under the impression that the frum oilam is not being encouraged to go. I would appreciate some clarity on this issue and da ma shetashuv to my non-Jewish and non-Orthodox co-workers who can't figure out why I am not participating.
A: Ultimately, this is a daas Torah shailah which needs to be decided by gedolei u'manhigei Yisroel. Let me preface my words by stating the obvious- that I am not a spokesman of the gedolei Yisroel. All the ideas mentioned below are based on my own understanding of the Torah perspective on this sensitive issue.
Rather than discuss what to tell your secular co-workers, I think it’s important to first gain clarity ourselves. There seems to be much confusion on this topic, as many have compared it to the Rabbi’s March attended by gedolei Yisroel to pressure the government to save Yidden during the Holocaust. It is my goal to explain why this march is not comparable to past events and the many pitfalls that can arise for frum bnei Torah attending and partaking in this event.
Organizers: Unlike previous events arranged by, or under the guidance of gedolei Yisroel, the organizers of this march are major secular Jewish coalitions.
A decision for frum Yidden to join together with Jewish coalitions who are openly uncommitted to Hashem and His Torah, and also contain member organizations that openly defy and flaunt Torah morals and values, is extremely complex and cannot be taken lightly. There are clear halachic issues relevant to such collaboration, as well as the risk of negative consequences and public chillul Hashem that can result from even temporary associations with such organizations.
Content: As of yet, no one is clear about the exact contents of the messages that will be broadcasted by the speakers and the anticipated ‘entertainers’ at the rally. It is quite likely that at least some of the messaging will not be in line with Torah thinking. How can a visibly frum ben aliyah attend such an event and place himself in a position that he might be viewed publicly as agreeing with ideas that are antithetical to Torah?
Anti-Semitism: The organizers of this gathering are claiming that one of its goals is to combat the virulent anti-Semitism that has reared its ugly head in America and all over the world in the wake of the barbaric events of October 7th. If history is any barometer, high profile public displays of Jewish presence and power directed at the nations of the world, more often than not only serve to fan the flames of sinas yisreol chas v’shalom as opposed to minimizing it.
Pikuach Nefesh: One may counter that while all of the above points mentioned are true, perhaps in this instance the frum world should make an exemption, since it is a matter of pikuach nefashos כל המצות שבתורה. A large turnout at the event will help garner US government support for more financial and military aid towards the Israeli army and will result in more lives saved.
Furthermore, it can be argued that a major turnout might invoke more sympathy for the Jewish hostages which can pressure the Hamas to release the captives.
Unclear Hishtadlus: We have a tradition from the Chazon Ish that when there are direct and clear cut steps of practical hishtadlus, a person is obligated to take action and not rely solely on spiritual activity and zechusim. However, when there is considerable doubt if those practical steps are indeed legitimate forms of hishtadlus, and if those practical actions seem far-fetched from producing results, then even in matters of pikuach nefesh one is not obligated to do that hishtadlus and can rely on spiritual zechusim.
[See תשובות וכתבים ממרן החזון איש (סימן מ"ח), ופאר הדור (ח"ג עמ' קפ"ג ועוד שם)]
The idea that this march will impact congress, the president, and his advisers to be positively disposed to Israel is a far shot given their past track record vis-a-vis Israel. In regards to the hostages, the situation is so volatile, Hamas is so cruel and unpredictable, that it is unrealistic to think that marches will have any influence in bringing them home.
It’s clear from the varied reasons given by the very organizers of this march, that they themselves realize that it is far from a given that the gathering will actually cause congress and the government to provide more assistance to Israel, and also pressure Hamas to free the hostages. Their primary goal seems to be a display of solidarity with the State of Israel and to show the world and all the pro-Palestinian demonstrators that Jews also have a voice and can also demonstrate in great numbers. That, in and of itself, is not an act of hatzalas nefashos.
The truth is that even if it is a fact that the march in Washington will impact the US government to help Israel, will that necessarily translate into lives saved? In the current volatile situation in the Middle East, increase of aid is in no way a guarantee that Iran and the Arabs won’t be able to harm more Jews.
According to the guidelines of Chazon Ish mentioned above, the cardinal rule of פקוח נפש דוחה כל המצות שבתורה does not apply to this particular form of hishtadlus. As such, we fall back on the general Torah rule that discourages public associations with those secular organizations and we rely on our increased spiritual zechusim of our daily learning and tefillos to protect Klal Yisroel in the time tested spirit of הקול קול יעקב.
The Need to do Something:
Jews all across the spectrum feel helpless and traumatized by the events of the past few weeks. It is a basic psychological need for people to feel they are doing something concrete in the face of such adversity and challenge. How fortunate we are as Torah Jews that we have solid methods given to us by Hashem Himself for such a situation, such as increased tefillah and limud haTorah. We don’t have to resort to marches in Washington, whose benefit is doubtful at best, and at worst can even develop into a massive chillul Hashem chas V’shalom.
May we all be zocheh to hear only yeshuos and nechamos for Klal Yisroel!
"Ultimately, this is a daas Torah shailah which needs to be decided by gedolei u'manhigei Yisroel."
Disclaimer.
Let me preface my words by stating the obvious- that I am not a spokesman of the gedolei Yisroel."
Disclaimer.
What follows then is just unsubstantiated speculations on what he thinks gedolei Yisroel, whom he implies are way above his head, think on the issue. Why should I care?
But that's דעת תורה, isn't it? Opaque decisions which are not really accepted on faith, but on guesswork pronounced by people who claim fidelity to דעת תורה, but instead pretentiously put words in the mouths of their leaders.
I'll also note, that for a long discourse on דעת תורה, there's not much תורה cited. Citing a single non-contemporary גדול without any insight on its relevancy on this particular issue, is far from impressive.
"What follows then is just unsubstantiated speculations on what he thinks gedolei Yisroel,"
False. He says " All the ideas mentioned below are based on my own understanding of the Torah perspective on this sensitive issue." The rest of your comment is based on this (intentional?) misreading.
Again: "what follows then is just unsubstantiated speculations".
That you've confirmed this by citing another one of his disclaimers doesn't change the fact that he's just speculating. So why should I care? It's just his made up opinion and doesn't reflect the leadership.
The problem is that at the same time he defers to the leadership, he expounds his own opinions to justify their decision. Now, if he thinks that his own opinions on the matter don't reflect דעת תורה, why discuss them?
He writes, "Ultimately, this is a daas Torah shailah which needs to be decided by gedolei u'manhigei Yisroel. "
Anything he writes after that statement, which does not defer to דעת תורה, but is his own opinion is a glaring inconsistency. Either he holds by דעת תורה, in which case he should present דעת תורה, or he should defer and not offer his own opinion. By offering his own opinion, it shows that he really doesn't believe in דעת תורה. So, tell me, what am I to make of what he writes? He's being inconsistent. Don't blame me for "misinterpreting" incoherency.
"Anything he writes after that statement, which does not defer to דעת תורה, but is his own opinion is a glaring inconsistency"
Non sequitur. He is saying that ultimately, Daas Torah needs to decide this, but in the interim, he can give his own opinion. If you are familiar with any Bais Medrash where they learn halacha, this is what goes on literally all the time.
"Either he holds by דעת תורה, in which case he should present דעת תורה, or he should defer and not offer his own opinion."
Again, non sequitur. He can initially offer his opinion, and then defer if they contradict him
" By offering his own opinion, it shows that he really doesn't believe in דעת תורה."
For a third time, non sequitur. How many times must I tell you?
"So, tell me, what am I to make of what he writes?"
If you chose to be there today, good. If not, too bad. You chose not to stand up with Klal Yisroel in its hour of need.
Almost 300,000 came to show strength, it included Jews from all walks of life. And it included Non-Jews who care to be counted and say “no” to antisemitism.
Not every Jew came. Some couldn’t take a PTO from work or whatever, some had Drs. Appointments that couldn’t be missed, and others had their own various reasons.
Ultimately, it’s all the same, either you want to stand arm-in-arm, shoulder to shoulder with other Jews and declare that we are good and right and Hamas and their supporters are evil, or you’d rather do something else today.
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
lol. to be clear i disagree with a lot of those reasons given and i think people should go and i'm not clear on why the olam haTorah is not going. i mean i know what some of them are saying but they're silly tainas. unless it's not hishtadlus because it won't help anyways, that's the only taina that may mean something, but that's unlikely. that's why i'm here in washington. while the performances i'm not too keen about play i'll be schmoozing in learning with my chavrusa hopefully or i have my headphones ready to plug in and hope there will be no picture of david shulman ignoring the program (there wont be). the point is, i showed up, and us showing up gives the white house chizuk to keep supporting israel which seems like proper hishtadlus.
Disgusting. It's one thing to not go to the event at all, which is bad. It's much worse to go and purposefully ignoring the event in public, by "shmoozing with your chavrusa". Sheesh? What is wrong with you guys?
So there you have it folks, from Mr Achdus himself.
"A certain community within klal Yisroel has a worldview that differs from mine. But they're stupid and selfish, so they should ignore their own hashkafos and follow mine. After all, isn't that what Jewish unity is all about?
Sigh, when will we finally be able to put aside our differences and all just listen to me? And we wonder why we're still in galus..."
Only if you can show the rally will actually help, of which there is zero evidence, certainly of the type of evidence that he demanded to show that learning Torah helps.
If you follow the news you should know that the public and the politicians are influenced by the various media sources.Today is not the age of the Chazon Ish. Failure to show massive support for Israel through the media. has tragic consequences. What bubble are you living in .Israeli soldiers are sacrificing their lives and you downgrade a support rally.You won't have a state whose letting you in to escape the Nazis.Remember!
Thanks. That shows that rallies influence politicians and election outcomes, not that they save lives. We already have a White House and Congress that is largely pro-Israel, you would have to show the incremental effect of possibly (or likely, if we can extrapolate from your study) making them more pro-Israel will save additional lives. I don't think there is any evidence of that, unless you can point me to another study.
You are so wrong. Listen to the speech that Natan Sharansky gave at the rally. Or read one of his books about his life in the Gulag. The rallies to free the Russian Jews gave Sharansky the chizik to continue living and he states unequivocally that the rallies helped pressure the USSR to free the Jews.
Seriously ? You are attacking the Chareidim again? its like the left wing media Bashing Israel ! Literally in the same article you call for unity you bash
(Eye roll emoji.) You're so clueless. Do yourself a favor and stick to commenting on Ramat Beit Shemesh, where you might actually know something.
UPDATE - And I just realized, you actually wrote all this BEFORE THE RALLY EVEN STARTED. The time stamp shows you wrote this at about midnight or so Washington time, six hours or so before the pre-rally daf yomi and minyanim started. You not only knew the participation numbers of the American yeshivah community - a community you know literally nothing about - but amazingly, you knew it all before it even happened. NS, you take the cake, lol!
FYI, our Agudah shul is encouraging people to go. Also, the Bais Yaakov type schools in our city (near DC) are bussing in students between 7th and 12th grades.
You're complaining that the yeshivas aren't going? Chareidi schools aren't flying people in from all over the country? Are you offering to pay for it?
And I'm sorry, though I do see some of your points about hishtadlus vs tefilla alone, your assertion that not going = not caring is wrong in the extreme. I assure you, every Jew in every community is doing extra davening and chessed for the zechus of the hostages, according to his or her ability. These people believe "lev melachim vesarim beyad Hashem" and therefore choose other avenues of support. You go too far to accuse them of not caring or not having achdus.
Getzel asked if there's anything regarding the war effort that would be secondary to Torah or do we have to empty out our yeshivos for every issue.
I think the answer is simple. Torah is not a replacement for hishtadlus. Hishtadlus is only secondary to Torah when you dont want the results of thay hishtadlus. But Torah will not get you those results in place of hishtadlus.
For example, is Torah secondary to working ? Only if you think earning is parnassah is important and work is that hishtadlus. If Torah is more important, then don't go work, but then you won't get that parnassah.
Is Torah secondary to voting in elections? Only if you want your vote to count. If you don't value your vote, then learn instead of putting in that hishtadlus, but your party will have one less vote.
When NYS wants to impose certain core requirements on yeshivos... Is Torah secondary to protesting and lobbying? Only if you value having more voices on the issues. If you don't think that secular study imposition is a big deal, then learn instead.
Is Torah secondary to the Israel rally? Only if you value a strong showing that Israel has support and that we won't stand for Hamas terror. If that isn't a value, then learning Torah is primary. But don't pretend that learning Torah will get the same benefits as doing the hishtadlus of going to the rally.
The quote from the article was "In Monsey, it’s business as usual, with most people feeling no emotional connection. The number of people going, as one friend in Monsey put it, is less than the number of people who would go to Montreal to attend a wedding."
You changed it to "You're saying that many buses have been chartered for members of the yeshivishe and hassidic community by yeshivishe and hassidic institutions?"
I'm not going to argue with an absurd strawman. If R' Slifkin meant "yeshivishe and hassidic community" then he shouldn't have said "Monsey." The line in the article was plainly inaccurate. In my immediate family, there are more people in DC than "would go to Montreal to attend a wedding." I'd be there too but I'm Israel.
Ok, thanks for the explanation. Not being from Monsey, I wasn't aware of these nuances. You are telling me these are all modern orthodox rabbis and congregations similar to, say, Rinat Yisrael? They are not black hat shuls? They don't send their kids to black hat yeshivos? Of course, you would know, being in Monsey yourself.
I can independently confirm from speaking with family members in the Charedi world that, unfortunately, everything written here is on target and true.
It is very very sad.
And kudos to Rabbi Slifkin for consistently calling a spade a spade, for writing factually and honestly about this- and for enduring the abuse that ensues in these comments from those who are unwilling/unable to face the truth.
Not sure why the heck the event is chazer treif? But don't be an idiot and say they're not going because "they don't want to be part of an initiative that came from the outside" or that "they don't care." The first one is garbage and you should delete it. That's your hate talking. The second reason is just backwards.
The two reasons they are giving is that (a) Torah is most important and they are serious about that, and (b) is the horrific Hamas videos didn't help, will this help? For real, this is a frightening time but what is this march? (See below.) Another idea flying around is that the chafetz chaim famously said we fight the threat of violence and physical death with teshuva (purim story) and spiritual threats with fights (chanukah story). There have been major pushes in the yeshivos to step up the learning and davening to a large degree.
All that said I more of less agree with the article that despite the good intentions there is yet another reason to go: to be a part of klal yisroel at large and not be the only ones not going. (I also great the chilul Hashem appreciate if the actual outside world hears about it and, like slifkin draws the wind conclusion that we don't care...) I am going obviously but choke that up to me being more "open minded."
One last point, you should just know they almost every bachur and yungerman would rather go on this 'interesting' trip rather than stay on the "boring" bm, and I am going with my chavrusa all we can learn on the way but it's not like we're doing it because this is the easy way out. I think that should be put out there as well because the life in the beis medrash is not "fun and selfish."
And yes you are right, they don't feel it because it's not "unzer". I guarantee if a bunch of yeshiva bochurim, or a rosh yeshiva, were among the hostages, they would demonstrate every day.
It's a disgrace and it makes me embarrassed to be part of this wider Jewish family.
I know someone who tried to organise a cross schools tehillim event for girls in London. The event was to daven. Not to have mixed dancing or disuxss apikorsus. Just to daven. And yet the Stamford Hill schools made the most difficulties about participating. Believe it ot not, some schools refused to attend because their policy is to keep their students (teenage girls) completely unawares what's going on in Israel
Actually they are most likely to try separate lines of activism. You know how I know? Because it’s happened before. When Rav Hutner and some of his family and students were on the plane hijacked to Transjordan in the early 70s, they insisted on being separated from the other Jewish hostages and having their own lines of communication and negotiation.
During WWII the Mir and other Yeshiva students in Shanghai insisted on being treated separately from the other Jewish refugees. Not only that - but they took double portions of everything as they received the aguda relief effort materials and funds yet still insisted that they receive their portions of the Joint relief efforts.
I was responding to your last point which was much more severe than the rest. As far as separate lines of activism, that doesn't bother me since every group has different interests and there is less machlokes this way. Yes, some groups prevail in their efforts before others, and that works both ways, its ok.
BTW I wonder if Aguda was making the demonstration with 100,000 black-hatters with slichos and tehillim, and let's see the irreligious show up, all though the Modern would. It's fine if some won't, most people have their comfort-zone-limits.
The yeshivish leaders are not in agreement because their stance is not to show support for or collaborate with the reform and conservative movements that are running the show.
(I'm not 100% certain but it seems like the program might include kol isha.)
That really helped the charedim when the petliura pogroms and later the Nazis came for everyone. They shorted “we aren’t Zionists! We aren’t reform or conservative or secular. Don’t burn down our shuls together with their temples and community centers. We demand a separate bunk in the concentration camp.”
and same for everyone he choose to follow their leaders. It is understandable that some will be irked by this but there is no place for saying they are wrong.
Maybe stopping the non stop trashing of them as if it's a personal grudge would be more conducive to achdus. You be the bigger man, celebrate those of them that come and stop with the neo anti semitic Jew bashing. Your hatred is showing.
I dont have a personal grudge against the charedi world, but i have the moral honesty to say that I agree with RNS on this, - the Charedi world disinterest towards the hostages and general apathy about the Matzva in EY is most disappointing
To those who claim their learning is more valuable than anything else, where is the evidence of an uplift in their learning efforts? Are they organising new Sedorim? Are they opening new Shiurim?
Are they Davening with more Kavonoh? In the Charedi shuls I daven in, often people dont bother to say Tehillim after Mincha/Maariv, or if they do, they mumble their way through. And the same puerile elements who engage in Letzonus throughout Davening still do so, even while the Rabbi's Deroshoh refers to the tragedies in EY.
I think it's a result of ghettoisation that Charedim generally dont give a fig about anyone outside their own community. Even other Jews.
The more Charedi/Yeshivish/Chasidish, the more fragmented the community, so the more people to ignore.
This is just incredibly harsh , they started their zman early , there have been attzers tefillah (multiple times) in almost all kehillas. Tehillim for woman + special shiurim. I know for example a shul that every Monday and Thursday evening host extra tehillim and selichos. (Including yesterday a "Chareidi wide" Tefillah was called ) I know people (Charedim) that have cancelled vacations to be more sensitive to the situation. Yes they may not feel it as harshly as everyone else because they are less directly involved but they are certainly don't not care.
Ok I backtrack. It is harsh on some charedi communities. Although not on others.
Shim, charedim go on vacations? I thought that bnei Torah spend all of their time learning. What right do they have to even consider going on a vacation?
Im not sure which way you are trying to go?
It should be pretty obvious, no? Or are charedim so stick in their own bubble that they’ve lost the ability to even discern when something is inconsistent in their own ideology? 🤔
Oh so you are just being unnecessary condescending, sorry for giving you the benefit of the doubt. From that whole comment that's what you took? Why take my comment and twist it to be an anti chareidi insult? Its like a subset of antisemitism
Keep it private. This is an open source and why show any lack of unity. That's what they are trying to achieve.
Do you daven in other shuls, to have a proper point of comparison? A good davening can only be judged - if mortal man can judge it all - by how it looks compared to peers, not against what one imagines to be the proper "standard" of kavanah. And my friend, if you expect crowds of people to be saying tehillim, night after night and night, and with perfect concentration to boot, you are bound to be disappointed. You don't do that yourself either, and let us not pretend otherwise. לא ניתנה תורה למלאכי השרת
Maybe they would increase achdus by going.
I dont see how this refutes his point?
Are you Saul Or Ben ?!
Saul
I think this being the top comment says alot . R Slifkin please stop , the Jews are hated enough as is
Ultimately everyone will have their own reason to come or not come.
These Jews who didn’t come simply decided standing up as being part of the Jewish during its hour of need is just not as important as whatever other considerations there were.
It’s that simple.
It's really not that simple, you just decided to assume the worst of your fellow Jews. That was your decision.
Actually it is that simple. These Jews decided that their other concerns were more important than
standing arm-in-arm and shoulder-to-shoulder with other Jews to say “Antisemitism is wrong”.
Because of their other concerns, These Jews decided to NOT stand up and be counted specifically when the world is counting.
It actually is that simple.
Actually, it really is that simple. You just decided to assume the worst of your fellow Jews. You made a decision to be terrible person today, which is far worse than those you are putting down.
Actually you’re the only one in this conversation putting anyone down. You’re the one calling someone “a terrible person” you’ve actually said that to me here, and in your other comment to me you said “shame on [my] mother” (not even sure what my righteous mother z”l has anything to do with this).
I never insulted anyone. I never put anyone down. I simply recognized that the people I described had other concerns that prevented them from coming.
In my other comments, I specified that for some those other concerns might be unavailable PTO from work, for others it might be Dr appointments that can’t be missed. And others.
These Jews had their own concerns. They are wrong. Full stop.
I’m not assuming the worst. I listened to what they said. They told me why.
They said: “its organizers and participants are not משלומי אמוני ישראל. And as is known, the opinion of our Rabbanim, z’tl whose mesorah we hold, warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah and Mesorah. And especially after the speakers’ schedule of the rally was published, and it is known to all that the main speakers are a mixture of people whose entire essence is the opposite of Torah and yirah and tzninus, r’l. Since then, the matter is simple – we must distance ourselves from them and the masses.” (Yeshiva world news). And they are wrong.
You never explained why they were wrong. You just brushed aside their concerns like they were nothing, while fully validating the concerns of those who don't have PTO or who have appointments. That seems extremely unfair...and wrong.
The **REAL** reason we are not going is simple. It's not the reason that you claim we profess, neither is it the reason that you suggest to be the real reason. Rather, the outlook of Chareidi Jewry vis-a-vis the state of Israel for the last 80 years has always been that we acknowledge that it serves a role in allowing us to live in Eretz Yisroel and work with the situation on the ground (unlike Satmar), yet we in no way endorse Zionism or feel that the actual State of Israel is a good thing or facilitating the Geulah. Yes, the fact that Jews are able to live in Eretz Yisroel and practice Judaism freely is a good thing and possibly the initial stages of the Geula, but the actual Zionist entity was founded as another cynical way to uproot Judaism, and secular Zionism still tries to do that until this very day.
Therefore, situations such as these put us into a real quandary. On the one hand, we are very much concerned about the situation in Eretz Yisroel, and daven a lot and send financial assistance (as well as check the news compulsively), but on the other hand, our Gedolim feel that it would be a massive chilul Hashem to have thousands of Chareidi Jews showing up to support a Zionistic function. Anyone capable of understanding nuance will have no trouble understanding this, but apparently, many of those who frequent this site do not.
The “Gedolim” are wrong.
Don’t get me wrong; most frum Jews are very dedicated to the Jewish people. And they live it and show it in their own ways. But they are 100% dead wrong on this issue.
They simply choose to not stand up and be counted when it counts. Jews are dying, the world is against us, and they choose to ignore the basic of the basic…. “Im ayn ani li, mi li?”
Everyone has concerns, there’s a big tent, and we are a dysfunctional family. But you either show up, or you don’t. They chose the “don’t.” They are wrong.
There is nothing complex about it. No nuance. Just wrong.
What incredibly reductionist thinking. These people, who care deeply about their fellow Jews, who organized countless hours of prayer gatherings and limud Torah in the merit of EY, who donated millions of dollars to help, had legitimate concerns which they voiced. And you simply assumed the worst in your fellow jews, showing that you are infinitely worse than those Jews who you come to denigrate. Shame on you and shame on your mother.
Well, no. I actually conceded that most frum Jews are dedicated to the Jewish people and do live it and show it in their own ways.
They are wrong on THIS issue. The “Gedolim” are wrong on THIS issue.
Standing up and being counted has immeasurable value.
They ignored “if I am not me for me, then who will be? If not now, when?”
THAT horrible mistake is on them.
Without doubt, other Jews have their own faults. But this one is squarely on a certain segment of the Jewish world.
I’m not assuming the worst in anyone. I’m simply recognizing the obvious fact that the “Gedolim” and many other Jews might be right sometimes and wrong sometimes. And in THIS particular issue, these were dead wrong.
Ok, and on this issue, you happen to be 100% wrong.
" but the actual Zionist entity was founded as another cynical way to uproot Judaism"
This is ignorance. The State was founded by many different groups of Jews, each with their own agenda and vision. As such, the State's vision is a hybrid, reflecting both Torah and secular ideals. The extent that Torah Jewry failed to participate in ישוב ארץ ישראל, is reflected in the realities of the State today.
You don't like the מדינה? The go back in time and tell the Torah leadership that they shouldn't leave Zionism to the secular. More practically, change the State! Immigrate and vote for a party who's interest in forming policy is driven by a Torah vision rather than a narrow vision of army exemptions, money and jobs.
The same generalization that you make about chareidim's "narrow vision" (despite the fact that chareidim many different groups each with their own agendas and vision) can easily be applied to the early Zionists who founded the state, who were mostly secular, and so Oiberchochom is correct.
Why weren't charedim the early Zionists? Why were the secular?
You mean why didn't frum Jews try to establish a Jewish state on their own, without the secularists? Apparently the Talmidei HaGra made some sort of attempt. Are you asking why they weren't successful?
The answer is they needed money, so they appealed to the non-religious community. And it was one decade that Chovavei Tzion flipped to being secular. Many religious completely bailed out, while the others founded Mizrachi.
And Mizrachi i.e. today national religious developed into a major religious movement with it's thrving school system , kollels, and leading Talmudei Chachamim. Not that they didn't have major Talmudei Chachamim to begin with.
They are already changing the state (perhaps not exactly the way you like, but I think there is already more achdus between the chareidim and the "serious" DLs and that is likely to increase), but I agree more chareidim should immigrate and further change it.
"They are already changing the state"
How?
"perhaps not exactly the way you like"
What way is that?
If the State is changing, doesn't that negate Oiberchochom's reason for not going?
They are making it more religious. But I think he means it currently retains too much of its original secular character.
1) That is the current zeitgeist, but that is not in any way inherent in Charedi philosophy. Many of the intellectual forebears the mainstream non-eidah Ashkenazi Charedim were much more pro-Zionist to say nothing of the Sephardim who were simply Zionist; the notion of calling the state the "Zionist Enitity" would be completely foreign to them (BTW you should change terminology because that is the terminology of the Islamists). And of course the Agudah reversed course and supported the creation of the state.
2) Lots of frum Jews went, and the "massive Chillul Hashem" somehow did not materialize. So I guess you are saying the Gedolim were wrong.
3) The Agudah endorsed going to this supposedly "massive Chilllul Hashem".
4) This was not the reason given R Brudny for opposing the rally. He said that he didn't like the program. He did not oppose the cause.
Overall, I'd say that there is little evidence supporting your explanation.
David you are saying good about the reason why those particular Gedolim opposed going, not like Oiberchochom. But by the same token, it was not for Slifkin's reasons either.
His first two reasons are correct and aligned with what was proffered as a reason.
It's also pretty clear that there was a disagreement of some sort. I don't agree with the third reason listed in this post.
Well, in the kol korei it says
"“However, despite the fact that all our hearts are pained and mourn the tzarah of the klal, we are conveying our opinion that no one who is ‘חרד לדבר ה’ should participate in the general rally that is being held, as its organizers and participants are not משלומי אמוני ישראל. And as is known, the opinion of our Rabbanim, z’tl whose mesorah we hold, warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah and Mesorah. And especially after the speakers’ schedule of the rally was published, and it is known to all that the main speakers are a mixture of people whose entire essence is the opposite of Torah and yirah and tzninus, r’l. Since then, the matter is simple – we must distance ourselves from them and the masses.”
Comparing that to A and B
"(A) they don’t want to validate an initiative that came from outside their community, (B) they don’t want to be part of a larger mission that stresses the achdus of a general Jewish identity rather than reinforcing a separate charedi identity"
It doesn't seem quite accurate at all, if anything the kol korei aligns better (but still not accurately) with Oiberchochom who says "our Gedolim feel that it would be a massive chilul Hashem to have thousands of Chareidi Jews showing up to support a Zionistic function" which roughly maps to "warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah and Mesorah."
(A) is not something that they are going to say directly so what they wrote is not by itself a proof, but when you attack something because of the people involved rather than because of what they are actually doing, this is fully consistent with A. The evidence for A comes from this being repeated over and over. So I don't think you can prove that A was part of it just from this case, but A was part of it.
(B) is spot on aligned. If you are going to join together with other Jews and you represent something less than 10% of the Jewish population (probably more like 5% or less) and you are on one extreme end of the Jewish spectrum, then you have two choices: join together with the other 90-95% of Jews who view things differently to support the continued existence of Israel, or else say that is more important to stay separate. The other groups put their differences aside to join together for this important mission, but this subset of Charedi Rabbis made staying separate from the others a more important value. I certainly was not happy with John Hagee being one of the speakers, but the joint support for Israel way overrides the presence of an objectionable person.
But A is completely his and your conjecture. The fact that it is repeated over and over is also consistent with the fact that "outside their community" over and over act in ways that are inconsistent with chareidim's perceived Torah values. You can call that being equivalent to A, but it's not. And if you are going by your own conjecture rather than what they actually say, that totally negates your objection to Oiberchochom, whose conjecture, which I think is inaccurate as well, is also consistent with what they do over and over.
B is still inaccurate. It's not that they don't inherently want to be part of a larger mission, it's that they have overriding objections. B is not the reason for why they don't want to go, it's the outcome of why they don't want to go.
Agudah did NOT change course and supported the creation of the secular state, revisionist history. They supported a Jewish Homeland, not a secular state.
I think that you are incorrect. They question before them whether they supported the creation of a Jewish state. They had opposed this prior and there were still a few stragglers like R Aharon Kotler.
The only historical evidence I am aware off that is used for this oft-made claim that Agudah changed their view on a secular zionist state is a letter sent by them following the Balfour declaration. That letter refers to a Jewish homeland only.
But if you have historical evidence for support for the sate, please link.
Fair enough, I will try to find more backing. But obviously their joining into the first government, even under pressure, indicates a level of support which was different from the complete opposition in Europe. You can interpret that in multiple ways, but certainly that is some evidence that they realized circumstances had changed and complete opposition was not longer feasible.
It doesn't indicate support. It indicates that it is here now, we need to work with it (and ensure we get funding).
Sorry but you come across as a gigantic כפוי טובה
״מכאן אמרו חכמים ״יפה שתיקה לחכמים קל וחומר לטפשים״ שנאמר (משלי יז) ״אויל מחריש חכם יחשב" ״ (מסכת פסחים פרק ט, דף צ"ט ע"א)
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
״אַבְטַלְיוֹן אוֹמֵר:
חֲכָמִים,
הִזָּהֲרוּ בְּדִבְרֵיכֶם;
שֶׁמָּא תָּחוֹבוּ חוֹבַת גָּלוּת,
וְתִגְלוּ לִמְקוֹם מַיִם הָרָעִים,
וְיִשְׁתּוּ הַתַּלְמִידִים הַבָּאִים אַחֲרֵיכֶם וְיָמוּתוּ,
וְנִמְצָא שֵׁם שָׁמַיִם מִתְחַלֵּל״ (משנה אבות א יא)
BREAKING: Angry British-Israeli guy ranting on substack declares that the people he's spent the last decade and a half trashing, mocking, and calling murderers, are perpetrating 'a tragedy and disgrace.' during the 'important time for achdus in Klal Yisrael.'
This is a developing story. Check back for further unhinged updates about the existential crisis chareidim represent to the state of Israel.
It's like the guys who used to scream "tolerance" (a word quietly dropped from the left-wing vocabulary during Covid/BLM riots) were the most intolerant of all. Here too - the guy talks "achdus" from one side of the mouth, while bashing entire communities with the other.
(I used to think this was tactical. Like counter-accusing to deflect from from the charges against you. And in many cases I think that's really why its done. But with NS I do believe its genuine cluelessness. He actually thinks he's doing Gods work. Verily I think, like so many anti-semites throughout history, he simply does not realize how he appears to others.)
A few relevant links to my previous comment.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/an-unnatural-fixation-with-charedim
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/mazeltov-murder-tonight
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/gevalt-jerusalem-post
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rav-chaims-pants
March on Washington?
Practical Divrei Chizuk for the Ben Aliyah in the Workplace, by Rav Yosef Simcha Klein, author of Ben Aliyah B'Olam HaParnassah.
Q: There is much talk in my workplace about the upcoming pro-Israel march scheduled for Tuesday in Washington. I don't know much of the details but I am under the impression that the frum oilam is not being encouraged to go. I would appreciate some clarity on this issue and da ma shetashuv to my non-Jewish and non-Orthodox co-workers who can't figure out why I am not participating.
A: Ultimately, this is a daas Torah shailah which needs to be decided by gedolei u'manhigei Yisroel. Let me preface my words by stating the obvious- that I am not a spokesman of the gedolei Yisroel. All the ideas mentioned below are based on my own understanding of the Torah perspective on this sensitive issue.
Rather than discuss what to tell your secular co-workers, I think it’s important to first gain clarity ourselves. There seems to be much confusion on this topic, as many have compared it to the Rabbi’s March attended by gedolei Yisroel to pressure the government to save Yidden during the Holocaust. It is my goal to explain why this march is not comparable to past events and the many pitfalls that can arise for frum bnei Torah attending and partaking in this event.
Organizers: Unlike previous events arranged by, or under the guidance of gedolei Yisroel, the organizers of this march are major secular Jewish coalitions.
A decision for frum Yidden to join together with Jewish coalitions who are openly uncommitted to Hashem and His Torah, and also contain member organizations that openly defy and flaunt Torah morals and values, is extremely complex and cannot be taken lightly. There are clear halachic issues relevant to such collaboration, as well as the risk of negative consequences and public chillul Hashem that can result from even temporary associations with such organizations.
Content: As of yet, no one is clear about the exact contents of the messages that will be broadcasted by the speakers and the anticipated ‘entertainers’ at the rally. It is quite likely that at least some of the messaging will not be in line with Torah thinking. How can a visibly frum ben aliyah attend such an event and place himself in a position that he might be viewed publicly as agreeing with ideas that are antithetical to Torah?
Anti-Semitism: The organizers of this gathering are claiming that one of its goals is to combat the virulent anti-Semitism that has reared its ugly head in America and all over the world in the wake of the barbaric events of October 7th. If history is any barometer, high profile public displays of Jewish presence and power directed at the nations of the world, more often than not only serve to fan the flames of sinas yisreol chas v’shalom as opposed to minimizing it.
Pikuach Nefesh: One may counter that while all of the above points mentioned are true, perhaps in this instance the frum world should make an exemption, since it is a matter of pikuach nefashos כל המצות שבתורה. A large turnout at the event will help garner US government support for more financial and military aid towards the Israeli army and will result in more lives saved.
Furthermore, it can be argued that a major turnout might invoke more sympathy for the Jewish hostages which can pressure the Hamas to release the captives.
Unclear Hishtadlus: We have a tradition from the Chazon Ish that when there are direct and clear cut steps of practical hishtadlus, a person is obligated to take action and not rely solely on spiritual activity and zechusim. However, when there is considerable doubt if those practical steps are indeed legitimate forms of hishtadlus, and if those practical actions seem far-fetched from producing results, then even in matters of pikuach nefesh one is not obligated to do that hishtadlus and can rely on spiritual zechusim.
[See תשובות וכתבים ממרן החזון איש (סימן מ"ח), ופאר הדור (ח"ג עמ' קפ"ג ועוד שם)]
The idea that this march will impact congress, the president, and his advisers to be positively disposed to Israel is a far shot given their past track record vis-a-vis Israel. In regards to the hostages, the situation is so volatile, Hamas is so cruel and unpredictable, that it is unrealistic to think that marches will have any influence in bringing them home.
It’s clear from the varied reasons given by the very organizers of this march, that they themselves realize that it is far from a given that the gathering will actually cause congress and the government to provide more assistance to Israel, and also pressure Hamas to free the hostages. Their primary goal seems to be a display of solidarity with the State of Israel and to show the world and all the pro-Palestinian demonstrators that Jews also have a voice and can also demonstrate in great numbers. That, in and of itself, is not an act of hatzalas nefashos.
The truth is that even if it is a fact that the march in Washington will impact the US government to help Israel, will that necessarily translate into lives saved? In the current volatile situation in the Middle East, increase of aid is in no way a guarantee that Iran and the Arabs won’t be able to harm more Jews.
According to the guidelines of Chazon Ish mentioned above, the cardinal rule of פקוח נפש דוחה כל המצות שבתורה does not apply to this particular form of hishtadlus. As such, we fall back on the general Torah rule that discourages public associations with those secular organizations and we rely on our increased spiritual zechusim of our daily learning and tefillos to protect Klal Yisroel in the time tested spirit of הקול קול יעקב.
The Need to do Something:
Jews all across the spectrum feel helpless and traumatized by the events of the past few weeks. It is a basic psychological need for people to feel they are doing something concrete in the face of such adversity and challenge. How fortunate we are as Torah Jews that we have solid methods given to us by Hashem Himself for such a situation, such as increased tefillah and limud haTorah. We don’t have to resort to marches in Washington, whose benefit is doubtful at best, and at worst can even develop into a massive chillul Hashem chas V’shalom.
May we all be zocheh to hear only yeshuos and nechamos for Klal Yisroel!
"Ultimately, this is a daas Torah shailah which needs to be decided by gedolei u'manhigei Yisroel."
Disclaimer.
Let me preface my words by stating the obvious- that I am not a spokesman of the gedolei Yisroel."
Disclaimer.
What follows then is just unsubstantiated speculations on what he thinks gedolei Yisroel, whom he implies are way above his head, think on the issue. Why should I care?
But that's דעת תורה, isn't it? Opaque decisions which are not really accepted on faith, but on guesswork pronounced by people who claim fidelity to דעת תורה, but instead pretentiously put words in the mouths of their leaders.
I'll also note, that for a long discourse on דעת תורה, there's not much תורה cited. Citing a single non-contemporary גדול without any insight on its relevancy on this particular issue, is far from impressive.
"What follows then is just unsubstantiated speculations on what he thinks gedolei Yisroel,"
False. He says " All the ideas mentioned below are based on my own understanding of the Torah perspective on this sensitive issue." The rest of your comment is based on this (intentional?) misreading.
Again: "what follows then is just unsubstantiated speculations".
That you've confirmed this by citing another one of his disclaimers doesn't change the fact that he's just speculating. So why should I care? It's just his made up opinion and doesn't reflect the leadership.
The problem is that at the same time he defers to the leadership, he expounds his own opinions to justify their decision. Now, if he thinks that his own opinions on the matter don't reflect דעת תורה, why discuss them?
"Again"
No. You shamelessly changed what you were saying, which was an intentional misreading, without an apology. Fraud.
"he's just speculating."
No, he's giving his opinion just like you are giving yours.
"So why should I care? It's just his made up opinion "
Why should we care about your made up opinion?
He writes, "Ultimately, this is a daas Torah shailah which needs to be decided by gedolei u'manhigei Yisroel. "
Anything he writes after that statement, which does not defer to דעת תורה, but is his own opinion is a glaring inconsistency. Either he holds by דעת תורה, in which case he should present דעת תורה, or he should defer and not offer his own opinion. By offering his own opinion, it shows that he really doesn't believe in דעת תורה. So, tell me, what am I to make of what he writes? He's being inconsistent. Don't blame me for "misinterpreting" incoherency.
"Why should we care about your made up opinion?"
You shouldn't.
"Anything he writes after that statement, which does not defer to דעת תורה, but is his own opinion is a glaring inconsistency"
Non sequitur. He is saying that ultimately, Daas Torah needs to decide this, but in the interim, he can give his own opinion. If you are familiar with any Bais Medrash where they learn halacha, this is what goes on literally all the time.
"Either he holds by דעת תורה, in which case he should present דעת תורה, or he should defer and not offer his own opinion."
Again, non sequitur. He can initially offer his opinion, and then defer if they contradict him
" By offering his own opinion, it shows that he really doesn't believe in דעת תורה."
For a third time, non sequitur. How many times must I tell you?
"So, tell me, what am I to make of what he writes?"
You shouldn't grossly misinterpret it.
"He's being inconsistent."
Your convoluted musings isn't his inconsistency.
"You shouldn't"
Then why write it?
This is all too complex.
If you chose to be there today, good. If not, too bad. You chose not to stand up with Klal Yisroel in its hour of need.
Almost 300,000 came to show strength, it included Jews from all walks of life. And it included Non-Jews who care to be counted and say “no” to antisemitism.
Not every Jew came. Some couldn’t take a PTO from work or whatever, some had Drs. Appointments that couldn’t be missed, and others had their own various reasons.
Ultimately, it’s all the same, either you want to stand arm-in-arm, shoulder to shoulder with other Jews and declare that we are good and right and Hamas and their supporters are evil, or you’d rather do something else today.
I like how he snuck a plug for his book in there. That's called hishtadlus.
On second thought, no, I like nothing about this.
So counter
Here’s the counter:
״מכאן אמרו חכמים ״יפה שתיקה לחכמים קל וחומר לטפשים״ שנאמר (משלי יז) ״אויל מחריש חכם יחשב" ״ (מסכת פסחים פרק ט, דף צ"ט ע"א)
״וכדי להפליג במעלת הדעת, אבאר מדרש רבה פרשת ויקרא (פ"א סט"ו), וזה לשונו: מכאן אמרו, ״כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו״, עיין שם. ובמתנות כהונה מביא גירסא אחרת: ״אמר רבי עקיבא, כל תלמיד חכם המגביה עצמו דומה לנבלה המושלכת בדרך, כל עובר ושב מניח ידו על חוטמו ומתרחק עצמו ממנה והולך.״ אבל לקיים הגירסא דידן, יש לפרש, וכדומה ששמעתי קצת מזה מחכם אחד בק"ק פרנקפורט, בהיותי ריש מתיבתא ואב בית דין שמה ... כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו, כי הנבלה סופה תבוא לידי טהרה כשמסרחת, וזה שאין בו דעת לא בא למעלתו ועומד בטפשותו. (ספר ווי העמודים, רבי שבתי שפטל הלוי הורוביץ בן רבי ישעיה הלוי הורוביץ (השל״ה הקדוש) עמוד השלום פרק כו )
״אַבְטַלְיוֹן אוֹמֵר:
חֲכָמִים,
הִזָּהֲרוּ בְּדִבְרֵיכֶם;
שֶׁמָּא תָּחוֹבוּ חוֹבַת גָּלוּת,
וְתִגְלוּ לִמְקוֹם מַיִם הָרָעִים,
וְיִשְׁתּוּ הַתַּלְמִידִים הַבָּאִים אַחֲרֵיכֶם וְיָמוּתוּ,
וְנִמְצָא שֵׁם שָׁמַיִם מִתְחַלֵּל״ (משנה אבות א יא)
lol. to be clear i disagree with a lot of those reasons given and i think people should go and i'm not clear on why the olam haTorah is not going. i mean i know what some of them are saying but they're silly tainas. unless it's not hishtadlus because it won't help anyways, that's the only taina that may mean something, but that's unlikely. that's why i'm here in washington. while the performances i'm not too keen about play i'll be schmoozing in learning with my chavrusa hopefully or i have my headphones ready to plug in and hope there will be no picture of david shulman ignoring the program (there wont be). the point is, i showed up, and us showing up gives the white house chizuk to keep supporting israel which seems like proper hishtadlus.
Disgusting. It's one thing to not go to the event at all, which is bad. It's much worse to go and purposefully ignoring the event in public, by "shmoozing with your chavrusa". Sheesh? What is wrong with you guys?
Btw it's very loud here and I did not end up schmoozing;)
really? you think someone is looking?
So there you have it folks, from Mr Achdus himself.
"A certain community within klal Yisroel has a worldview that differs from mine. But they're stupid and selfish, so they should ignore their own hashkafos and follow mine. After all, isn't that what Jewish unity is all about?
Sigh, when will we finally be able to put aside our differences and all just listen to me? And we wonder why we're still in galus..."
They are putting lives in danger by not joining the rally. Last I check we are doche shabbos when lives are in danger.
Only if you can show the rally will actually help, of which there is zero evidence, certainly of the type of evidence that he demanded to show that learning Torah helps.
If you follow the news you should know that the public and the politicians are influenced by the various media sources.Today is not the age of the Chazon Ish. Failure to show massive support for Israel through the media. has tragic consequences. What bubble are you living in .Israeli soldiers are sacrificing their lives and you downgrade a support rally.You won't have a state whose letting you in to escape the Nazis.Remember!
You should be serving in Tzahal.
If I knew what language that was in, I would use google translate
I disagree with your assumption that there is 0 evidence that the rally will help. There is plenty of evidence that rallies influence outcomes. https://www.aei.org/politics-and-public-opinion/study-political-rallies-have-significant-and-long-term-effects/
Furthermore, the halacha is that your are doche shabbos even if there is a POSSIBILITY of saving lives.
Thanks. That shows that rallies influence politicians and election outcomes, not that they save lives. We already have a White House and Congress that is largely pro-Israel, you would have to show the incremental effect of possibly (or likely, if we can extrapolate from your study) making them more pro-Israel will save additional lives. I don't think there is any evidence of that, unless you can point me to another study.
You are so wrong. Listen to the speech that Natan Sharansky gave at the rally. Or read one of his books about his life in the Gulag. The rallies to free the Russian Jews gave Sharansky the chizik to continue living and he states unequivocally that the rallies helped pressure the USSR to free the Jews.
Seriously ? You are attacking the Chareidim again? its like the left wing media Bashing Israel ! Literally in the same article you call for unity you bash
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/of-assemblies-and-evasions
(Eye roll emoji.) You're so clueless. Do yourself a favor and stick to commenting on Ramat Beit Shemesh, where you might actually know something.
UPDATE - And I just realized, you actually wrote all this BEFORE THE RALLY EVEN STARTED. The time stamp shows you wrote this at about midnight or so Washington time, six hours or so before the pre-rally daf yomi and minyanim started. You not only knew the participation numbers of the American yeshivah community - a community you know literally nothing about - but amazingly, you knew it all before it even happened. NS, you take the cake, lol!
FYI, our Agudah shul is encouraging people to go. Also, the Bais Yaakov type schools in our city (near DC) are bussing in students between 7th and 12th grades.
You're complaining that the yeshivas aren't going? Chareidi schools aren't flying people in from all over the country? Are you offering to pay for it?
And I'm sorry, though I do see some of your points about hishtadlus vs tefilla alone, your assertion that not going = not caring is wrong in the extreme. I assure you, every Jew in every community is doing extra davening and chessed for the zechus of the hostages, according to his or her ability. These people believe "lev melachim vesarim beyad Hashem" and therefore choose other avenues of support. You go too far to accuse them of not caring or not having achdus.
Getzel asked if there's anything regarding the war effort that would be secondary to Torah or do we have to empty out our yeshivos for every issue.
I think the answer is simple. Torah is not a replacement for hishtadlus. Hishtadlus is only secondary to Torah when you dont want the results of thay hishtadlus. But Torah will not get you those results in place of hishtadlus.
For example, is Torah secondary to working ? Only if you think earning is parnassah is important and work is that hishtadlus. If Torah is more important, then don't go work, but then you won't get that parnassah.
Is Torah secondary to voting in elections? Only if you want your vote to count. If you don't value your vote, then learn instead of putting in that hishtadlus, but your party will have one less vote.
When NYS wants to impose certain core requirements on yeshivos... Is Torah secondary to protesting and lobbying? Only if you value having more voices on the issues. If you don't think that secular study imposition is a big deal, then learn instead.
Is Torah secondary to the Israel rally? Only if you value a strong showing that Israel has support and that we won't stand for Hamas terror. If that isn't a value, then learning Torah is primary. But don't pretend that learning Torah will get the same benefits as doing the hishtadlus of going to the rally.
You're wrong about Monsey. I don't know who your friend is, but many hundreds or thousands are going from Monsey. Many busses have been chartered.
I would like to hear more about this.
You're saying that many buses have been chartered for members of the yeshivishe and hassidic community by yeshivishe and hassidic institutions?
All I can say is that I had not heard ANYTHING about such a phenomenon and am not aware of it.
From which yeshivas?
From which shuls?
The quote from the article was "In Monsey, it’s business as usual, with most people feeling no emotional connection. The number of people going, as one friend in Monsey put it, is less than the number of people who would go to Montreal to attend a wedding."
You changed it to "You're saying that many buses have been chartered for members of the yeshivishe and hassidic community by yeshivishe and hassidic institutions?"
I'm not going to argue with an absurd strawman. If R' Slifkin meant "yeshivishe and hassidic community" then he shouldn't have said "Monsey." The line in the article was plainly inaccurate. In my immediate family, there are more people in DC than "would go to Montreal to attend a wedding." I'd be there too but I'm Israel.
An apology is in order.
I'm not his lawyer and I did not write his post, but I agree that the modification to "yeshivishe and hassidic community" is in order.
Hi, don't live in Monsey but surely this doesn't sound like "not ANYTHING"?
https://rocklanddaily.com/news/monsey-rabbonim-strongly-encourage-community-to-attend-tomorrow-s-historic-washington-d-c-march-for-israel-rally
Thank you.
It's very heartening to see that Wesley Hills and Forshay, Monsey's equivalent of The Five Towns, have voiced this support.
Ok, so it would be great if Slifkin would retract and say that there are many chareidi Rabbonim in Monsey encouraging it, and many who are not. But accuracy was never his goal. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/who-is-marching-for-israel/comment/43619351
These are wonderful shuls and wonderful Rabbonim.
However, they represent "modern" Monsey, not the mainstream yeshivishe, who were the subject of his post.
I tried to say that somewhat delicately, but perhaps that nuance was lost on some who are unfamiliar.
And even in that neighborhood, "modern" by Monsey standards, the more yeshivishe Rabbonim in the more yeshivishe shuls did not sign.
Ok, thanks for the explanation. Not being from Monsey, I wasn't aware of these nuances. You are telling me these are all modern orthodox rabbis and congregations similar to, say, Rinat Yisrael? They are not black hat shuls? They don't send their kids to black hat yeshivos? Of course, you would know, being in Monsey yourself.
And CanadianJews are also being bused in!
I can independently confirm from speaking with family members in the Charedi world that, unfortunately, everything written here is on target and true.
It is very very sad.
And kudos to Rabbi Slifkin for consistently calling a spade a spade, for writing factually and honestly about this- and for enduring the abuse that ensues in these comments from those who are unwilling/unable to face the truth.
Not sure why the heck the event is chazer treif? But don't be an idiot and say they're not going because "they don't want to be part of an initiative that came from the outside" or that "they don't care." The first one is garbage and you should delete it. That's your hate talking. The second reason is just backwards.
The two reasons they are giving is that (a) Torah is most important and they are serious about that, and (b) is the horrific Hamas videos didn't help, will this help? For real, this is a frightening time but what is this march? (See below.) Another idea flying around is that the chafetz chaim famously said we fight the threat of violence and physical death with teshuva (purim story) and spiritual threats with fights (chanukah story). There have been major pushes in the yeshivos to step up the learning and davening to a large degree.
All that said I more of less agree with the article that despite the good intentions there is yet another reason to go: to be a part of klal yisroel at large and not be the only ones not going. (I also great the chilul Hashem appreciate if the actual outside world hears about it and, like slifkin draws the wind conclusion that we don't care...) I am going obviously but choke that up to me being more "open minded."
One last point, you should just know they almost every bachur and yungerman would rather go on this 'interesting' trip rather than stay on the "boring" bm, and I am going with my chavrusa all we can learn on the way but it's not like we're doing it because this is the easy way out. I think that should be put out there as well because the life in the beis medrash is not "fun and selfish."
Their inaction makes my blood boil.
And yes you are right, they don't feel it because it's not "unzer". I guarantee if a bunch of yeshiva bochurim, or a rosh yeshiva, were among the hostages, they would demonstrate every day.
It's a disgrace and it makes me embarrassed to be part of this wider Jewish family.
I know someone who tried to organise a cross schools tehillim event for girls in London. The event was to daven. Not to have mixed dancing or disuxss apikorsus. Just to daven. And yet the Stamford Hill schools made the most difficulties about participating. Believe it ot not, some schools refused to attend because their policy is to keep their students (teenage girls) completely unawares what's going on in Israel
עמו אנכי בצרה?
Nah, that's for the modern Jews.
בושה וחרםה
Actually they are most likely to try separate lines of activism. You know how I know? Because it’s happened before. When Rav Hutner and some of his family and students were on the plane hijacked to Transjordan in the early 70s, they insisted on being separated from the other Jewish hostages and having their own lines of communication and negotiation.
During WWII the Mir and other Yeshiva students in Shanghai insisted on being treated separately from the other Jewish refugees. Not only that - but they took double portions of everything as they received the aguda relief effort materials and funds yet still insisted that they receive their portions of the Joint relief efforts.
That double portion was sponsored separately by Ezras Torah.
You just don’t get it, do you?
I was responding to your last point which was much more severe than the rest. As far as separate lines of activism, that doesn't bother me since every group has different interests and there is less machlokes this way. Yes, some groups prevail in their efforts before others, and that works both ways, its ok.
BTW I wonder if Aguda was making the demonstration with 100,000 black-hatters with slichos and tehillim, and let's see the irreligious show up, all though the Modern would. It's fine if some won't, most people have their comfort-zone-limits.
The yeshivish leaders are not in agreement because their stance is not to show support for or collaborate with the reform and conservative movements that are running the show.
(I'm not 100% certain but it seems like the program might include kol isha.)
That really helped the charedim when the petliura pogroms and later the Nazis came for everyone. They shorted “we aren’t Zionists! We aren’t reform or conservative or secular. Don’t burn down our shuls together with their temples and community centers. We demand a separate bunk in the concentration camp.”
you're entitled to your view.
and same for everyone he choose to follow their leaders. It is understandable that some will be irked by this but there is no place for saying they are wrong.
Why? Have you never ever said that a position or a statement is simply wrong?
I have. when I was young and foolish. i expect more from adults with bully pulpits.
It's not