Typical. Play dumb and pretend you don't understand the difference. Gay politicians are the same as indicted Chareidi politicians. Because Chareidim are the worst. Devil incarnate. Snot nosed boogie monster moochers. Unholy Chazal defyers.
Besides for the fact that homosexuality is an extraordinary sin, referred to by the Torah as a Toeiva and the final cause of the Mabul, for someone who is 'openly gay', it DEFINES him. It is a lifestyle of immorality. However even the most indicted politician who curiously has a new criminal investigation opened into him every time new elections are announced does not CONDONE or encourage theft and corruption and admits it's a crime.
It's possible that some politicians occasionally stumble in sin and most live a life of sin, but I don't recall you denouncing Lapid and all the other secularists even though they do not live a kosher lifestyle. But go after the politicians that at least attempt to follow the Torah.
Right around the same area in the Torah where homosexuality is called a toeiva, guess what else is called a toeiva? cheating in business! Some consistency please. Also take a look at what many of the later Nevim talk in terms of what caused the destruction and what Hashem hates. It is mostly types of social justice that are the ills of society. - Gil
INDEED. SO I WILL SPELL I OUT FOR YOU. FOR SOMEONE WHO IS OPENLY GAY, IT DEFINES HIM. IT IS LIKE SOMEONE PROUDLY ADVERTISING THAT HE IS A MURDERER OR A PAGAN. CONTRAST THAT TO SOMEONE WHO IS *ACCUSED* OF THEFT, ALTHOUGH HE DENIES IT. AND EVEN IF SOMEONE ADMITS TO SLIPPING IN THEFT, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE ADVERTISING THAT HE LIVES IT AS A LIFESTYLE!!!
The real underlying point is that certain groups have no trouble looking the other way when it's unzeereh (אונדזער "one of our own") that's sinning. Unfortunately corruption is probably prevalent across the religious and irreligious spectrum, and no one holds a monopoly. And different groups are nichshol in different aveiros. But other groups are definitely more honest about it.
My point is that even if in theory you're right, it's not a 'tzu shtel' here at all! Neither Deri nor any other politician promote theft and corruption as a platform. If someone would open a party that the platform is legalizing theft, then it would be comparable. Not if someone stumbles in it on occasion or is even a thoroughly corrupt kleptomaniac who can't keep his hands off other people's money, but admits it's wrong. It's the same reason why the Charedi parties don't walk out every time every other secular politicians gets up to speak, even though they are sinners. Do people really not get the difference?
They don't promote theft and corruption as a platform, but they make it very clear that they feel no shame about it and that it doesn't disqualify them from being public servants.
Uh, actually, Deri claims innocence. And Chareidi society in Israel sees themselves of victims of the 'justice' system which utilizes its power to persecute them. So in their eyes, Deri is squeeky clean and just cleverly managed to extricate himself from the Justice Department's clutches. I don't get how that is in anyway comparable to a guy who is proud of doing terrible aveiros. Do you?
I don’t see אוחנה as promoting homosexuality. While some openly gay people do promote that not everyone does. To many, being openly gay, is just a statement that they don’t want to be stigmatised by society as queer because of something they believe they were born as. And since they aren’t religious they don’t care about the sining part. I do find it odd the charadi parties differentiate between אוחנה and any other secular politician who’s lets say a מחלל שבת. Who are they to weigh the severity of a sin? IMO, אוחנה is even less guilty than a מחלל שבת, since in his mind he has no choice on this matter.
Jack, I don't know that much about Mr. Ohana and whether he is a proud PRIDE marcher or a back of the crowd one. What I do know is that the reason Netanyahu selected someone openly gay as speaker was specifically as a statement: to further corrode whatever vestiges are left of Judeo values remaining in secular society to try and placate the secular hysteria surrounding the creation of his government. Jews as well as the Umos Ha'olam were taught by G-d that homosexuality is immoral and punishable by death. The fact that he did it is a travesty and a massive Chilul Hashem. And the fact that so many MODOX commenters on this site just can't seem to see what's wrong here because they view the world through their secular lens is very, very disturbing.
"But other groups are definitely more honest about it."
I don't know all other groups, but the ones that I know about minimize their sins to virtually zero, after which they 'honestly' admit that they indeed did 'zero' wrong.
No idea what Rav Slifkin's position is - but my position is that I have absolutely no interest in what goes on in the bedrooms of my elected officials.
I have no idea whether all members of the Knesset are strict about Taharat Mishpacha, or are involved in the many other forbidden sexual activities. I also have no idea whether they are strict about Shabbat or Kashrut or other Halachot.
I have no idea whether Mr Ohana commits sexual acts that are forbidden. There is one very specific homosexual activity that is forbidden, and I have no idea whether he and his partner commit this type of act, or just have a loving relationship which includes only permitted activities - and frankly, it is none of my business.
I am much more interested in the honesty and ethics of elected officials, and the policies that they promote. Seems much more relevant than to know what does or does not happen in their bedroom.
No idea?? NO idea?? Really?? Are you that credulous with regard to anything else? And if you are, how would you be in a position to judge the honesty and ethics of elected officials?
Not sure why you are obsessed with what goes on in people's bedrooms.
If an elected official responsible for handling my tax dollars is a crook, that concerns me greatly. If his wife doesn't go to the Mikva, or he has an open marriage, or likes dressing up as women, or has a gay lover, or misses Kriyat Shema B'zman sometimes - doesn't interest me or effect me in the slightest (and I have no idea whether any members of Knesset commit any of these forbidden acts, but as I said - I do not care one way or the other)
And for the record - there are many people living in a Same-sex relationship who do not partake in forbidden sexual activities. There are also people in heterosexual relationships who do commit forbidden acts. If your only concern about an elected official is what does or does not happen in their bedroom, maybe the problem is not with them.
😂 You really are that credulous! If so, then you can also believe that Deri is totally innocent, clean as a whistle. After all, there are many people throughout history who have been falsely accused and even convicted. You can also believe Chareidim actually serve in the IDF... they just do it secretly.
But something tells me you are not really that gullible . You only say so because of your first paragraph - you just don't care. But you should. Unless you are as cynical as some of the Chareidi commenters here, politicians are viewed as leaders. They serve as examples, and their behavior affects many people, especially the youth. You should be very, VERY concerned that most of your leaders are open mechallelei Shabbos Torah transgressors. Unless, as I suspect, you just don't care much about them religious heebie-jeebies.
Which part of "I DON"T CARE WHAT PEOPLE DO IN THEIR BEDROOMS" wasn't clear?
My question to you is - do you always take such an interest in what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms? Do you think that type of obsession is healthy or compatible with Halacha?
Ok, so then stop pretending you don't know, like it's not completely obvious. It just dishonest and disingenuous.
The phrase "what people do in their bedrooms" is nonsensical and meaningless, since he is very publicly married, and it's completely obvious to everyone (but you) what a marriage is. Would you apply your same standard to somebody married to an 8-year old girl, since it's "what people do in their bedrooms"?
Honestly, I just noticed the article with the sources I mentioned and linked to it, I had no idea about the website/forum which produced it. And now I'm uncomfortable. But on the other hand, it's really the people who vote for corrupt frum politicians who should be ashamed, not me.
It very much depends on what is meant by Rabanan. One the one hand you can say it’s taking about the rabanan who were metaken all the mitsvot derabanan. On the other you could say it means anyone who has proper semicha (I.e not the semicha of nowadays) or it could mean the perceived ‘gedolim’ of nowadays, or it could mean anyone who calls himself a rabbi. I would lean toward the first definition, possibly accept the second. Definitely not the 3rd and Chas veshalom the 4th.
I could be very cynical and say that people expect politicians to be crooks. Simon Cameron, who himself was a politician, said "An honest politician is one who when he's bought stays bought". However, I agree that stealing is a very serious matter. False weights and measures are also designated as toeva. However, if we compare the halachic punishments, mishkav zachar is certainly much worse. Moreover, the hareidi politicians in question deny, or at least do not brag about it. Ohana thanked his "husband" for his support from the Knesset rostrum.
I also question if an official must be without sin. Chazal say that only four people in history reached that level. I also would remind you that being "under suspicion" is far from a conviction. The State Prosecutor's Office tried to convict both Yaakov Ne'eman and Avigdor Lieberman and wound up with egg on its collective face.
The Jewish Law Bureau of the State Prosecutor's Office has a discussion on the subject of whether an official can get his job back. From the synopsis of sources I saw, if he did teshuva, he goes back, except for killing someone. There Rabbi Meir allows him to go back but Rabbi Yehuda does not. In fact, Chazal say that an official should have a shady past. The commentators explain that he understands human weakness.
There are so many "Chilul Hashems" going on in society today (unfortunately from the frum too) that it has lost much of its import. But in my opinion, there is another factor that is more critical than "chillul Hashem", when it comes to the mishkav zachor issue. I said this years ago when Obama ym"sh pushed through the Iran Nuclear Deal. Netanyahu, to the dismay of Obama ym"sh, gave a worthy and convincing speech to Congress how terrible that "deal" would be. But, he made one HUGE mistake that I believe doomed his effort; he threw in the line, "and they hang gays." I tyna that one line is reason why Obama ym"sh was able to push it through. I'm not addressing whether hanging gays is the appropriate thing to do, albeit the evil Iranian regime has but one Zechus, they recognize the abomination of mishkav Zachor. It is a terrible indictment Klapei Shomya, to countenance m"z, defying Hashem Who characterized it as a toeva. Especially when it is obvious to any bar sechel that is the case (that it is abnormal and a toeva). So here the Iranian mullas are not duped by "the Emperor's New Clothes Syndrome" redefining m"z as normal and acceptable, yet the brilliant Netanyahu and many others are (or at least publicly say so)!
Then over the weekend I read the Anglo Chareidi paper's rundown of the new Knesset's first session. They mentioned Ohana being the speaker, said nothing about him or the silent Chareidi protests, and went on with the news.
It's interesting that the silent Chareidi protests should be more interesting than all the loud heckling that others did.
You are fundamentally misunderstanding the role and stature of Charedi politiicians. Charedi politicians are not leaders, they have no independent opinions, they are there to do whatever the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah tells them to do. They are not the best and the brightest of charedi society, they are actually people who couldn't fulfill the Charedi ideal of sitting and learning all day. Aryeh Deri is the head of Shas because he is a very good politician who faithfully executes the wishes of the Moetzes and gets things done. He is not a role model. Amir Ohana on the other hand is a leader, he answers to no one and therefore it is very different. Based on the above, no one in the Charedi community says Aryeh Deri evaded taxes so it must be right. The charedi community looks to the gedolim for guidance not politicians. Aryeh Deri is not pushing an agenda of tax evasion, bribery et. Amir Ohana on the hand is pushing the gay agenda. He supports gay marriage, gay people adopting/having kids etc. He is trying to normalize the gay lifestyle. That is much worse then Aryeh Deri.
Blah blah. At the end of the day they are looked up to as leaders (Uber askanim at worst) of their respective communities. Plus your statement isn’t true. Many of these people are chosen for their leadership abilities and many of them are ‘Rabbis’.
Aryeh Deri is ‘Shor muad’ for dishonesty. The fact that he promised as part of sentencing for his last crim in a bald faced to retire from the knesset and promptly enters the next knesset beggars belief. The fact that he represents a lot of the sefaradi community in Israel shames me.
They are chosen for their political acumen and are at best political leaders. But in the charedi world the real leaders are the gedolim and the politicians are subordinate to them. You can’t simply dismiss that.
Of course I don’t dismiss that. But you cannot dismiss that they are also seen as leaders and they definitely do wield power - do you think the ‘godol’ involves himself in every single ministerial decision/budget allocation? No, the godol sets the general direction and (hopefully) answers big questions. But all the details some smaller/some larger are left to the politicians. Everyone in Israel is extremely cognizant of this fact. Also important to note that these politicians also have the ‘ear’ of the gedolim.
Although he wasn’t a politician himself, who do you think the chiloni politicians needed to convince if they wanted something out of the charedi community? It was Yankie Kanievsky (whilst his grandfather was alive). So those having the ear of the godol also wield power.
Do not underestimate that combination and thus the power that these politicians wield.
So instead of voting for Deri, they should have voted for whom?
They took the best choice that they had. Of course politicians are terrible people. No ehrliche person goes into that business. But we need politicians.
This purist attitude that the Edah Charedis/Natan Slifkins of the world have towards advancing Torah will be the destruction of all of us if we do not repudiate it.
What a joke to compare political sins - which all politicians make, including the politicians you love - to an outspoken homosexual speaker! This ape, this reptile (sorry apes and reptiles) is speaker of a Jewish state? The State of Israel is anything but Israel. It's a state, that's all.
All decent people should vomit. And Netanyahu is a fake Jew. He cares about democracy, but the Torah is a joke to him.
The funny part is that his own daughter ran from him so fast...all the way to Meah Shearim. She couldn't handle him. He's great on issues such as stopping Iran from going nuclear, but the moment anything comes into contact with Halacha and Judaism, he is a snake in the grass like the rest of the 1% and 0% Jews.
He should have been too nauseated to elect that reptile, but he is so deep in the morass of non-Jewish wannabe-ism, it's a lost case.
I fail to see why this speaker is treated any different to other speakers who are mechalelei Shabbat befarhesia. So much so that you refer to him specifically as a reptile. They are either all reptiles or none of them are. In fact chillul Shabbat is arguably regarded as more severe sin..
FYI - You referral to ‘apes and reptiles’ is somewhat reminiscent of the Islamic Hadith referring to Jews as apes and pigs…
@Daniel, I'll respond to only one of your questions, because in the others you have some sort of point.
"I fail to see why this speaker is treated any different to other speakers who are mechalelei Shabbat befarhesia."
1- because he's at the cutting edge of public sin.
2- sexual sin is animalistic, as Chazal express regarding the Sotah, "היא עשתה מעשה בהמה לפיכך קרבנה מאכל בהמה." Sex is common to humans and animals. If animals are as dignified as humans—perhaps some wokists think so—there'd be nothing insulting in calling someone an animal. Rather we're assuming that human sex is more dignified. That dignity has certain limits beyond which the human performs an animal act. Again, the Sotah performs a מעשה בהמה. But there's no such idea of an animal keeping or violating Shabbos for itself.
You fail to see because you have no Jewish eyes. Shabbos desecration is terrible but the Torah insists that homosexual activity is toeva, a disgusting abominative thing.
It's easy to see why if you were not so secular. It's an unnatural act that can not produce offspring unlike normative attraction between sexes as Rambam discusses at length. Read the Torah commentators such as Iben Ezra on the verse discussing mishkav zachar.
Given that you regard "Netanyahu [as] a fake Jew", I hope that you voted for one of the political parties that campaigned to prevent him from returning to power - would be terrible if the government of Jewish State was headed by a "fake Jew"
You obviously don't know me. I have nothing personally against mistaken Jews, secular or MODOX. It's the "shita" of MODOX that's "fake". Most of its adherents are undereducated and just don't know any better. Even Natan is probably a good guy. He's quite obviously not too knowledgeable in Torah outside of maybe Zoology related topics and seems to have severe emotional damage so who can blame him? The only evil ones are the MODOX leaders who do know better and are OK with the status quo.
Well, to quote George Santos, there's Jewish and then there's Jew-ish. There is one Judaism. It's what the Torah, which is the Jewish lawbook, defines as Judaism. In the late 1700 - early 1800 an alternative 'Judaism' was created. So I guess if your Judaism is defined by eating potato latkes and saying 'oy vey!' and lame borscht belt jokes or allegiance to Zionism you might take umbrage with what I'm saying. The fact that unfortunately most Jews now practice their Judaism that way is sad. In fact, there's a religion with over two billion adherents which thinks it's practicing authentic Judaism! But Judaism is not about a numbers game. All Jew-ish subcategories that are not defined by the Torah are FAKE JUDAISM.
The funny thing is that even some of the secular realize that they are not practicing authentic Judaism. It's only to the MODOX that the lines are blurred. They profess to follow the Torah, yet on a practical level don't really do so and think that other fake streams of Judaism are also authentic, just different. Sad!
It is mindblowing to me, that a party that reveres Maran O. Yossef זצ"ל, does largely ignore what the opinion of Maran about the politician you mention was. He could not have been clearer.
The question you ask is interesting. While it is obvious that a supposedly ben Torah filled with yirat shamaim cam very easily cause a chillul Hashem, can a non-religious Jew that transgresses Torah really cause a chillul Hashem? Or are non-observant Jews rather a reflection of the state of our community at large?
Ezra, once you revere MROY ZTZL, you should somewhat revere his junior colleagues, for whom he had the highest regard. These are the living and past members of Moetzet Hachmei Hatorah. They made the decision, with their intimate knowledge of *how *he *thought, better than any of us could. The politicians weren't the movers and shakers for this.
My late rav pointed out that it's non-Jews who decide what constitutes a chillul Hashem or a kiddush Hashem, based on Devarim 4:6: And you shall keep [them] and do [them], for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the eyes of the peoples, who will hear all these statutes and say, "Only this great nation is a wise and understanding people. "
In short, a kiddush Hashem is whatever behavior non-Jews find admirable, and thus a chillul Hashem is whatever they find contemptible.
The only affect observance would have is that some observant Jews are more identifiably Jewish than either other observant Jews or non-observant Jews. I suppose hardly anyone aware of the crimes of Harvey Weinstein, Bernie Madoff, or Jeffrey Epstein is unaware of their Jewishness, which leaves an opening for chillul Hashem despite their lack of observance.
Guys, I think you have to be more specific. This isn't Kollel. On this forum you gotta present that massive gob of text from Maimonides in a dumbed down version. I'm not sure if Mr. Shevin has the same Yeshiva background that you do and is probably overwhelmed by all that verbiage.
Contrary to what Mr. Shevin's dear late rav said, Maimonides definition of a Chilul Hashem is one who performs Aveiros - whatever GOD finds contemptible - in the presence of other JEWS. Maimonides has a few different classifications there, but I don't want to confuse anyone with the details. So to sum it up, according to Maimonides, those crazy Charedim blocking streets in Rama Bet are not making a Chilul Hashem. It's the Tev Avivian high-earning hi-tech working Shabbat-violating Nidda-bo'elating guys that are!
Dude, are you reading the Rambam? Yid Poshut even provided the translation for you:
“And the specific part is when a man known for his virtue and goodness does a certain action that appears like a transgression in the eyes of the masses; such that it is not appropriate for someone esteemed to do this type of action, even though the action is permissible. And that is their saying (Yoma 86a), "What are the circumstances of the desecration of [God’s]name? [Rav said,] 'For example, [someone like] me, if I take meat from a butcher and do not give him money immediately.' ”
Note: “ in the eyes of the masses” - the masses refers to the whole community and when the sin is something that would be a sin for non-Jews as well, ‘the masses’ would include them.
Kal vachomer - where these politicians didn’t do something which just ‘appears as a transgression’.
I would also refer you to another definition of chillul hashem by the Rambam in hilcot talmud torah. Perek 3 Halacha 10: “Anyone who comes to conclusion that he should involve himself with Torah study without doing work and derive his livelihood from charity, *desecrates God’s name*, dishonours the Torah, extinguishes the light of the faith, brings evil upon himself, and forfeits the life of the world to come…’
This is what these chareidi politicians represent and also facilitate on behalf of their communities regardless of whether they have even committed a crime by law.
Wow, you must be a MODOX 'scholar'! The intellectual sloppiness is a dead giveaway: misquoting, taking things out of context and mischaracterizations. The Rambam says very clearly that Chilul Hashem is AVEIROS - not whatever secular society deems out-of-style as Mr Shevin claimed. The Rambam that you quote here supports that. And by the way, sorry to burst your bubble, but the 'masses' that the Rambam is referring to is 'the masses' of Jews. He quotes his source literally a line later which is the famous Gemara in Yuma that says that Chilul Hashem means one sinning openly in public, and for a Talmid Chochom whom 'the masses' look up to with extra reverence, even things that appear to be Aveiros or very minute Aveiros, such as buying on credit or walking around without learning Torah and wearing Tefilin. So I would advise you to look up the Rambam's sources or at least the Hebrew text inside before you start making 'diyukim' from Sefaria translations.
As far as politicians, I never said that a politician who stole is not a Chilul Hashem. It's just a much bigger Chilul Hashem if someone is openly gay - flaunting his aveiros - than someone who denies any wrongdoing to begin with. So in response to Natan's very profound question, the answer is DUH.
As far as the Rambam about Talmud Torah that you quote, see the comment section on this post https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/defying-chazal-is-not-holy for our takedown of Natan. I must say, it's really heartwarming to see how bent MODOX society is on being stringent on an exacting opinion of the Rambam that is by his own admission an outlier and rejected by all normative Poskim (see BY in YD 246, Tashbetz v.1 s 142 -147). Before you go to such spiritual heights, may I suggest making sure to say Birkat Hamazon after eating bread? I've noticed many in the MODOX community don't seem to know or care about the concept. Or if you're bent on Rambams, perhaps the 13 Ikarim? That is an opinion of the Rambam that has been accepted by almost all authorities over the ages (Shapiro's horrifically sloppy book notwithstanding) and the implications are a lot more serious than your other Rambam!!
Igros Moshe about that he would ride a car to shul on Friday afternoon after the time of candle lighting says that there's only Mar'is Ayin when people get the facts wrong. Where they get the Halacha wrong it's neither Mar'is Ayin nor Chillul Hashem.
I would refer you to some of the other comments on this blog which point out that the consensus of authorities disagrees with the Rambam you're citing.
If the politicians are guilty of those crimes, like the secular ones are, and that is known to *Jewish* masses, that's indeed a Chillul Hashem.
No doubt there are those who argue re learning for money. I don’t believe it’s the consensus. Definitely not amongst the rishonim or early acharonim. I was also using a ‘leshitascha’ argument.
Not sure what your point is re Igros Moshe? Is it that he argues with Rambams definition? Are you saying that Deri only looked like he was doing something wrong?
"Not sure what your point is re Igros Moshe? Is it that he argues with Rambams definition?"
No, he adds to it. Chillul Hashem is limited to what's known to Jewish masses, says Rambam. It's further limited to masses who know the Halacha; the remainder don't count, says Igros Moshe.
מכרכר, you're right--I don't. But even in translation, YidPoshut's citation was a lot of haystack containing some valuable but well-hidden needles.
Whether or not my rav's opinion fits a legalistic definition, if kiddush Hashem is what makes Jews look good, then it makes sense to me. As Hashem's representatives to the nations, what we do reflects on Him and on Torah. That's why behaving properly *sanctifies* His name and improper behavior *denigrates* it.
And such sanctification will fulfill the words of the pasuk I cited. As my rav said in the dvar Torah that presented this thesis, the pasuk is telling us that if we keep the Torah properly, other nations will admire us and WANT TO EMULATE US.
But Elliot, the pasuk is saying that if we keep the TORAH properly, the nations will admire us and want to emulate us. What your late rav said is that we should emulate the nations. So with all due respect to your late rav, but I'm not sure where he saw that in the pasuk. One can argue that for PR purposes, we should remain in vogue, but aside from the very obvious problems attempting to chase after a hedonistic secular society, it's entirely your late rav's marketing idea and not reflected in the pasuk at all.
מכרכר, isn't what you protest I failed to say is in fact what I DID say? But I think I left the impression that if the non-Jewish world thinks a particular behavior is good, we should do that to gain their admiration. What my rav said is that the non-Jewish world's reaction is a gauge of how we're doing; if they admire our adherence to Torah, we're getting it right.
By the way, I don't think my rav mentioned kiddush Hashem in his drasha. (It was around thirty years ago.) That's my own inference, but I think it makes sense.
"In short, a kiddush Hashem is whatever behavior non-Jews find admirable, and thus a chillul Hashem is whatever they find contemptible."
If I misunderstood and you're not saying that not being into environmentalism or LGBTQ rights or not getting a robust secular education or whatever else is a Chilul Hashem, then great! I guess we're on the same page.
Don, in case you're addressing me: He meant the first one, but not just mitzvot bein adam lemakom. Indeed, we can't expect the outside world to keep Shabbos--tradition actually says they're not PERMITTED to.
WADR Elliot, the point is their admiring us, not their imitating us. When we keep *for *example, Bein Adam L'Makom such as Shabbos, this, by some mysterious fashion, causes them to admire us. If we are looking for their admiration, we cannot limit our efforts to Bein Adam L'Chaveiro. Such limitation smacks of inconsistency and/or dishonesty.
And if one group limits themselves to BALM and another to BALC, is one group superior to the other?
I see you walked back on that this is connected to Chillul Hashem. That adds clarity. Ty.
Gracious! Ah do declayah I believe I've been insulted. Hold mah julep, Ashley; I feel an attack of the vapahs comin' on.
"my ahavas Yisrael isn't on the level it should be yet (as is clear from my comment)."
Recognition of the malady is the first step toward cure. 😁
It seems to me that if the Rambam's definition is the only valid one, then a kiddush Hashem must therefore also be what's done among Jews and tied to a mitzvah. Aaron Fuerstein continuing to pay his employees after his factory was destroyed by fire wouldn't count because there was no Torah obligation to do so. But did it not bring honor to Torah nonetheless?
Gracious! Ah do declah I believe I've been insulted. Hold me, Ashley; I feel an attack of the vapahs comin' on.
"my ahavas Yisrael isn't on the level it should be yet (as is clear from my comment)."
Recognition of the malady is the first step toward cure. 😁
It seems to me that if the Rambam's definition is the only valid one, then a kiddush Hashem must therefore also be what's done among Jews and tied to a mitzvah. Aaron Fuerstein continuing to pay his employees after his factory was destroyed by fire wouldn't count because there was no Torah obligation to do so. But did it not being honor to Torah nonetheless?
Because here we are in an unusual and bizarre situation where the am ha'aratzim and laymen think that they understand Judaism better than the ones learning Torah the whole day! Kid gloves aint gonna work!
"My late rav pointed out ... In short, a kiddush Hashem is whatever behavior non-Jews find admirable, and thus a chillul Hashem is whatever they find contemptible."
Here I thought the opposite was true, Chillul Hashem depends primarily if it's in front of *Jews*. Then YidPoshut brings a citation to that effect, with no special mention of non-Jews at all.
It is all relative. Within the religious community, a talmid chacham can cause a chillul Hashem bit an ordinary person, no. Within the general Jewish community, any identifiably observant Jew can cause it. In front of gentiles, any Jew can cause it. Moreover, Ohana spoke as Speaker of the Knesset, not as an individual.
בשו"ת דברי חיים (ח"א חו"מ סי' כה עמ' קכו) במכתב לבנו, כתב: ובעיני ראיתי גודל העושק הנעשה בעיר והכל לש"ש, וגם אם נמנה איזה נאמן מסתמא נוטה אחר הנגידים כידוע וגם אם לפעמים נושאים ונותנים שני אנשים או ג' משני הצדדים דרך שכמה יבואו לרצח אביונים ומי שיתמנה לעסק זה יקויים בו דברי בעל הטורים ז"ל אין אדם נעשה שוטר מלמטה אא"כ נעשה רשע מלמעלה. ולכן אהובי בני צריך להתיישב הרבה אם הוא לטובת השענקרס שרובם עניים כידוע ולא לטובת הנגידים המכוונים לש"ש.
The charedi paries are essentially kehiah organizations of the shtetl. Democracy is a fraud and the chilonim are no better. When were things different? This is human nature and the way of the world. Nothing will change.
Typical. Play dumb and pretend you don't understand the difference. Gay politicians are the same as indicted Chareidi politicians. Because Chareidim are the worst. Devil incarnate. Snot nosed boogie monster moochers. Unholy Chazal defyers.
Besides for the fact that homosexuality is an extraordinary sin, referred to by the Torah as a Toeiva and the final cause of the Mabul, for someone who is 'openly gay', it DEFINES him. It is a lifestyle of immorality. However even the most indicted politician who curiously has a new criminal investigation opened into him every time new elections are announced does not CONDONE or encourage theft and corruption and admits it's a crime.
It's possible that some politicians occasionally stumble in sin and most live a life of sin, but I don't recall you denouncing Lapid and all the other secularists even though they do not live a kosher lifestyle. But go after the politicians that at least attempt to follow the Torah.
To quote our old friend Shimson: Retarded!
Right around the same area in the Torah where homosexuality is called a toeiva, guess what else is called a toeiva? cheating in business! Some consistency please. Also take a look at what many of the later Nevim talk in terms of what caused the destruction and what Hashem hates. It is mostly types of social justice that are the ills of society. - Gil
If you would actually read my comment carefully maybe you wouldn't sound so dumb.
i guess I'm "dumb" too.
I think he basically demolished your Toeiva argument and all you can muster is name calling. can't you do any better?
INDEED. SO I WILL SPELL I OUT FOR YOU. FOR SOMEONE WHO IS OPENLY GAY, IT DEFINES HIM. IT IS LIKE SOMEONE PROUDLY ADVERTISING THAT HE IS A MURDERER OR A PAGAN. CONTRAST THAT TO SOMEONE WHO IS *ACCUSED* OF THEFT, ALTHOUGH HE DENIES IT. AND EVEN IF SOMEONE ADMITS TO SLIPPING IN THEFT, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE ADVERTISING THAT HE LIVES IT AS A LIFESTYLE!!!
The real underlying point is that certain groups have no trouble looking the other way when it's unzeereh (אונדזער "one of our own") that's sinning. Unfortunately corruption is probably prevalent across the religious and irreligious spectrum, and no one holds a monopoly. And different groups are nichshol in different aveiros. But other groups are definitely more honest about it.
My point is that even if in theory you're right, it's not a 'tzu shtel' here at all! Neither Deri nor any other politician promote theft and corruption as a platform. If someone would open a party that the platform is legalizing theft, then it would be comparable. Not if someone stumbles in it on occasion or is even a thoroughly corrupt kleptomaniac who can't keep his hands off other people's money, but admits it's wrong. It's the same reason why the Charedi parties don't walk out every time every other secular politicians gets up to speak, even though they are sinners. Do people really not get the difference?
They don't promote theft and corruption as a platform, but they make it very clear that they feel no shame about it and that it doesn't disqualify them from being public servants.
Uh, actually, Deri claims innocence. And Chareidi society in Israel sees themselves of victims of the 'justice' system which utilizes its power to persecute them. So in their eyes, Deri is squeeky clean and just cleverly managed to extricate himself from the Justice Department's clutches. I don't get how that is in anyway comparable to a guy who is proud of doing terrible aveiros. Do you?
I don’t see אוחנה as promoting homosexuality. While some openly gay people do promote that not everyone does. To many, being openly gay, is just a statement that they don’t want to be stigmatised by society as queer because of something they believe they were born as. And since they aren’t religious they don’t care about the sining part. I do find it odd the charadi parties differentiate between אוחנה and any other secular politician who’s lets say a מחלל שבת. Who are they to weigh the severity of a sin? IMO, אוחנה is even less guilty than a מחלל שבת, since in his mind he has no choice on this matter.
Jack, I don't know that much about Mr. Ohana and whether he is a proud PRIDE marcher or a back of the crowd one. What I do know is that the reason Netanyahu selected someone openly gay as speaker was specifically as a statement: to further corrode whatever vestiges are left of Judeo values remaining in secular society to try and placate the secular hysteria surrounding the creation of his government. Jews as well as the Umos Ha'olam were taught by G-d that homosexuality is immoral and punishable by death. The fact that he did it is a travesty and a massive Chilul Hashem. And the fact that so many MODOX commenters on this site just can't seem to see what's wrong here because they view the world through their secular lens is very, very disturbing.
"I do find it odd the charadi parties differentiate between אוחנה and any other secular politician who’s lets say a מחלל שבת."
@Jack, read through the pre-existing comments that responded to your question
"But other groups are definitely more honest about it."
I don't know all other groups, but the ones that I know about minimize their sins to virtually zero, after which they 'honestly' admit that they indeed did 'zero' wrong.
Better they should condone all sin than be hypocrites?
What is your own position on gay politicians according to "your own values"?
That a gay received this position gets fleeting attention, or none at all except as a springboard to focus on Hareidi problems?
No idea what Rav Slifkin's position is - but my position is that I have absolutely no interest in what goes on in the bedrooms of my elected officials.
I have no idea whether all members of the Knesset are strict about Taharat Mishpacha, or are involved in the many other forbidden sexual activities. I also have no idea whether they are strict about Shabbat or Kashrut or other Halachot.
I have no idea whether Mr Ohana commits sexual acts that are forbidden. There is one very specific homosexual activity that is forbidden, and I have no idea whether he and his partner commit this type of act, or just have a loving relationship which includes only permitted activities - and frankly, it is none of my business.
I am much more interested in the honesty and ethics of elected officials, and the policies that they promote. Seems much more relevant than to know what does or does not happen in their bedroom.
When someone’s bedroom life starts defining him as a person in an obsessive way, I’d question if we are dealing with a full deck of cards.
"- and frankly, it is none of my business."
IOW, you're wagging a finger at the concerned.
No idea?? NO idea?? Really?? Are you that credulous with regard to anything else? And if you are, how would you be in a position to judge the honesty and ethics of elected officials?
Not sure why you are obsessed with what goes on in people's bedrooms.
If an elected official responsible for handling my tax dollars is a crook, that concerns me greatly. If his wife doesn't go to the Mikva, or he has an open marriage, or likes dressing up as women, or has a gay lover, or misses Kriyat Shema B'zman sometimes - doesn't interest me or effect me in the slightest (and I have no idea whether any members of Knesset commit any of these forbidden acts, but as I said - I do not care one way or the other)
And for the record - there are many people living in a Same-sex relationship who do not partake in forbidden sexual activities. There are also people in heterosexual relationships who do commit forbidden acts. If your only concern about an elected official is what does or does not happen in their bedroom, maybe the problem is not with them.
😂 You really are that credulous! If so, then you can also believe that Deri is totally innocent, clean as a whistle. After all, there are many people throughout history who have been falsely accused and even convicted. You can also believe Chareidim actually serve in the IDF... they just do it secretly.
But something tells me you are not really that gullible . You only say so because of your first paragraph - you just don't care. But you should. Unless you are as cynical as some of the Chareidi commenters here, politicians are viewed as leaders. They serve as examples, and their behavior affects many people, especially the youth. You should be very, VERY concerned that most of your leaders are open mechallelei Shabbos Torah transgressors. Unless, as I suspect, you just don't care much about them religious heebie-jeebies.
What? Cynical Chareidi commenters? Where?
Which part of "I DON"T CARE WHAT PEOPLE DO IN THEIR BEDROOMS" wasn't clear?
My question to you is - do you always take such an interest in what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms? Do you think that type of obsession is healthy or compatible with Halacha?
Ok, so then stop pretending you don't know, like it's not completely obvious. It just dishonest and disingenuous.
The phrase "what people do in their bedrooms" is nonsensical and meaningless, since he is very publicly married, and it's completely obvious to everyone (but you) what a marriage is. Would you apply your same standard to somebody married to an 8-year old girl, since it's "what people do in their bedrooms"?
From the website that he learns his "halacha" from, quoted in this post ("countless statements")
https://avodah.net/judaism-can-uplift-queerness-qa-with-justice-fellowship-alum-emily-piff/
and many more wonderful "tikkun olam" things along those lines!
Honestly, I just noticed the article with the sources I mentioned and linked to it, I had no idea about the website/forum which produced it. And now I'm uncomfortable. But on the other hand, it's really the people who vote for corrupt frum politicians who should be ashamed, not me.
lol
Open challenge to the Dr Rabbi and anyone else here:
How do you explain the chazal of מאי אהנו לי לרבנן
It very much depends on what is meant by Rabanan. One the one hand you can say it’s taking about the rabanan who were metaken all the mitsvot derabanan. On the other you could say it means anyone who has proper semicha (I.e not the semicha of nowadays) or it could mean the perceived ‘gedolim’ of nowadays, or it could mean anyone who calls himself a rabbi. I would lean toward the first definition, possibly accept the second. Definitely not the 3rd and Chas veshalom the 4th.
I could be very cynical and say that people expect politicians to be crooks. Simon Cameron, who himself was a politician, said "An honest politician is one who when he's bought stays bought". However, I agree that stealing is a very serious matter. False weights and measures are also designated as toeva. However, if we compare the halachic punishments, mishkav zachar is certainly much worse. Moreover, the hareidi politicians in question deny, or at least do not brag about it. Ohana thanked his "husband" for his support from the Knesset rostrum.
I also question if an official must be without sin. Chazal say that only four people in history reached that level. I also would remind you that being "under suspicion" is far from a conviction. The State Prosecutor's Office tried to convict both Yaakov Ne'eman and Avigdor Lieberman and wound up with egg on its collective face.
The Jewish Law Bureau of the State Prosecutor's Office has a discussion on the subject of whether an official can get his job back. From the synopsis of sources I saw, if he did teshuva, he goes back, except for killing someone. There Rabbi Meir allows him to go back but Rabbi Yehuda does not. In fact, Chazal say that an official should have a shady past. The commentators explain that he understands human weakness.
There are so many "Chilul Hashems" going on in society today (unfortunately from the frum too) that it has lost much of its import. But in my opinion, there is another factor that is more critical than "chillul Hashem", when it comes to the mishkav zachor issue. I said this years ago when Obama ym"sh pushed through the Iran Nuclear Deal. Netanyahu, to the dismay of Obama ym"sh, gave a worthy and convincing speech to Congress how terrible that "deal" would be. But, he made one HUGE mistake that I believe doomed his effort; he threw in the line, "and they hang gays." I tyna that one line is reason why Obama ym"sh was able to push it through. I'm not addressing whether hanging gays is the appropriate thing to do, albeit the evil Iranian regime has but one Zechus, they recognize the abomination of mishkav Zachor. It is a terrible indictment Klapei Shomya, to countenance m"z, defying Hashem Who characterized it as a toeva. Especially when it is obvious to any bar sechel that is the case (that it is abnormal and a toeva). So here the Iranian mullas are not duped by "the Emperor's New Clothes Syndrome" redefining m"z as normal and acceptable, yet the brilliant Netanyahu and many others are (or at least publicly say so)!
Then over the weekend I read the Anglo Chareidi paper's rundown of the new Knesset's first session. They mentioned Ohana being the speaker, said nothing about him or the silent Chareidi protests, and went on with the news.
It's interesting that the silent Chareidi protests should be more interesting than all the loud heckling that others did.
Ich mein az s'iz do a andere siba farvos zei hoben nisht geshriben vegen di machoes!
You are fundamentally misunderstanding the role and stature of Charedi politiicians. Charedi politicians are not leaders, they have no independent opinions, they are there to do whatever the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah tells them to do. They are not the best and the brightest of charedi society, they are actually people who couldn't fulfill the Charedi ideal of sitting and learning all day. Aryeh Deri is the head of Shas because he is a very good politician who faithfully executes the wishes of the Moetzes and gets things done. He is not a role model. Amir Ohana on the other hand is a leader, he answers to no one and therefore it is very different. Based on the above, no one in the Charedi community says Aryeh Deri evaded taxes so it must be right. The charedi community looks to the gedolim for guidance not politicians. Aryeh Deri is not pushing an agenda of tax evasion, bribery et. Amir Ohana on the hand is pushing the gay agenda. He supports gay marriage, gay people adopting/having kids etc. He is trying to normalize the gay lifestyle. That is much worse then Aryeh Deri.
Blah blah. At the end of the day they are looked up to as leaders (Uber askanim at worst) of their respective communities. Plus your statement isn’t true. Many of these people are chosen for their leadership abilities and many of them are ‘Rabbis’.
Aryeh Deri is ‘Shor muad’ for dishonesty. The fact that he promised as part of sentencing for his last crim in a bald faced to retire from the knesset and promptly enters the next knesset beggars belief. The fact that he represents a lot of the sefaradi community in Israel shames me.
They are chosen for their political acumen and are at best political leaders. But in the charedi world the real leaders are the gedolim and the politicians are subordinate to them. You can’t simply dismiss that.
Of course I don’t dismiss that. But you cannot dismiss that they are also seen as leaders and they definitely do wield power - do you think the ‘godol’ involves himself in every single ministerial decision/budget allocation? No, the godol sets the general direction and (hopefully) answers big questions. But all the details some smaller/some larger are left to the politicians. Everyone in Israel is extremely cognizant of this fact. Also important to note that these politicians also have the ‘ear’ of the gedolim.
Although he wasn’t a politician himself, who do you think the chiloni politicians needed to convince if they wanted something out of the charedi community? It was Yankie Kanievsky (whilst his grandfather was alive). So those having the ear of the godol also wield power.
Do not underestimate that combination and thus the power that these politicians wield.
Both ? ACJA
So instead of voting for Deri, they should have voted for whom?
They took the best choice that they had. Of course politicians are terrible people. No ehrliche person goes into that business. But we need politicians.
This purist attitude that the Edah Charedis/Natan Slifkins of the world have towards advancing Torah will be the destruction of all of us if we do not repudiate it.
What a joke to compare political sins - which all politicians make, including the politicians you love - to an outspoken homosexual speaker! This ape, this reptile (sorry apes and reptiles) is speaker of a Jewish state? The State of Israel is anything but Israel. It's a state, that's all.
All decent people should vomit. And Netanyahu is a fake Jew. He cares about democracy, but the Torah is a joke to him.
The funny part is that his own daughter ran from him so fast...all the way to Meah Shearim. She couldn't handle him. He's great on issues such as stopping Iran from going nuclear, but the moment anything comes into contact with Halacha and Judaism, he is a snake in the grass like the rest of the 1% and 0% Jews.
He should have been too nauseated to elect that reptile, but he is so deep in the morass of non-Jewish wannabe-ism, it's a lost case.
I fail to see why this speaker is treated any different to other speakers who are mechalelei Shabbat befarhesia. So much so that you refer to him specifically as a reptile. They are either all reptiles or none of them are. In fact chillul Shabbat is arguably regarded as more severe sin..
FYI - You referral to ‘apes and reptiles’ is somewhat reminiscent of the Islamic Hadith referring to Jews as apes and pigs…
@Daniel, I'll respond to only one of your questions, because in the others you have some sort of point.
"I fail to see why this speaker is treated any different to other speakers who are mechalelei Shabbat befarhesia."
1- because he's at the cutting edge of public sin.
2- sexual sin is animalistic, as Chazal express regarding the Sotah, "היא עשתה מעשה בהמה לפיכך קרבנה מאכל בהמה." Sex is common to humans and animals. If animals are as dignified as humans—perhaps some wokists think so—there'd be nothing insulting in calling someone an animal. Rather we're assuming that human sex is more dignified. That dignity has certain limits beyond which the human performs an animal act. Again, the Sotah performs a מעשה בהמה. But there's no such idea of an animal keeping or violating Shabbos for itself.
You fail to see because you have no Jewish eyes. Shabbos desecration is terrible but the Torah insists that homosexual activity is toeva, a disgusting abominative thing.
It's easy to see why if you were not so secular. It's an unnatural act that can not produce offspring unlike normative attraction between sexes as Rambam discusses at length. Read the Torah commentators such as Iben Ezra on the verse discussing mishkav zachar.
The speaker is a diseased reptile.
Given that you regard "Netanyahu [as] a fake Jew", I hope that you voted for one of the political parties that campaigned to prevent him from returning to power - would be terrible if the government of Jewish State was headed by a "fake Jew"
The other side were even 'faker Jews'!
Was there a single "real Jew" running in the last election? Or were they all "Fake-Jews", "Faker-Jews" or "Supporters of Fake Jews".
I guess if everyone who doesn't daven in your minyan is a "Fake Jew", it is probably not such a bad insult.
You obviously don't know me. I have nothing personally against mistaken Jews, secular or MODOX. It's the "shita" of MODOX that's "fake". Most of its adherents are undereducated and just don't know any better. Even Natan is probably a good guy. He's quite obviously not too knowledgeable in Torah outside of maybe Zoology related topics and seems to have severe emotional damage so who can blame him? The only evil ones are the MODOX leaders who do know better and are OK with the status quo.
Gotcha - thank you for being absolutely clear how little tolerance or understanding you have of the majority of the Jewish world.
Well, to quote George Santos, there's Jewish and then there's Jew-ish. There is one Judaism. It's what the Torah, which is the Jewish lawbook, defines as Judaism. In the late 1700 - early 1800 an alternative 'Judaism' was created. So I guess if your Judaism is defined by eating potato latkes and saying 'oy vey!' and lame borscht belt jokes or allegiance to Zionism you might take umbrage with what I'm saying. The fact that unfortunately most Jews now practice their Judaism that way is sad. In fact, there's a religion with over two billion adherents which thinks it's practicing authentic Judaism! But Judaism is not about a numbers game. All Jew-ish subcategories that are not defined by the Torah are FAKE JUDAISM.
The funny thing is that even some of the secular realize that they are not practicing authentic Judaism. It's only to the MODOX that the lines are blurred. They profess to follow the Torah, yet on a practical level don't really do so and think that other fake streams of Judaism are also authentic, just different. Sad!
It is mindblowing to me, that a party that reveres Maran O. Yossef זצ"ל, does largely ignore what the opinion of Maran about the politician you mention was. He could not have been clearer.
The question you ask is interesting. While it is obvious that a supposedly ben Torah filled with yirat shamaim cam very easily cause a chillul Hashem, can a non-religious Jew that transgresses Torah really cause a chillul Hashem? Or are non-observant Jews rather a reflection of the state of our community at large?
In the eyes of the world they represent the Jews and in this sense they can.
Ezra, once you revere MROY ZTZL, you should somewhat revere his junior colleagues, for whom he had the highest regard. These are the living and past members of Moetzet Hachmei Hatorah. They made the decision, with their intimate knowledge of *how *he *thought, better than any of us could. The politicians weren't the movers and shakers for this.
As previous commenters have said, definitely yes.
My late rav pointed out that it's non-Jews who decide what constitutes a chillul Hashem or a kiddush Hashem, based on Devarim 4:6: And you shall keep [them] and do [them], for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the eyes of the peoples, who will hear all these statutes and say, "Only this great nation is a wise and understanding people. "
In short, a kiddush Hashem is whatever behavior non-Jews find admirable, and thus a chillul Hashem is whatever they find contemptible.
The only affect observance would have is that some observant Jews are more identifiably Jewish than either other observant Jews or non-observant Jews. I suppose hardly anyone aware of the crimes of Harvey Weinstein, Bernie Madoff, or Jeffrey Epstein is unaware of their Jewishness, which leaves an opening for chillul Hashem despite their lack of observance.
Guys, I think you have to be more specific. This isn't Kollel. On this forum you gotta present that massive gob of text from Maimonides in a dumbed down version. I'm not sure if Mr. Shevin has the same Yeshiva background that you do and is probably overwhelmed by all that verbiage.
Contrary to what Mr. Shevin's dear late rav said, Maimonides definition of a Chilul Hashem is one who performs Aveiros - whatever GOD finds contemptible - in the presence of other JEWS. Maimonides has a few different classifications there, but I don't want to confuse anyone with the details. So to sum it up, according to Maimonides, those crazy Charedim blocking streets in Rama Bet are not making a Chilul Hashem. It's the Tev Avivian high-earning hi-tech working Shabbat-violating Nidda-bo'elating guys that are!
Dude, are you reading the Rambam? Yid Poshut even provided the translation for you:
“And the specific part is when a man known for his virtue and goodness does a certain action that appears like a transgression in the eyes of the masses; such that it is not appropriate for someone esteemed to do this type of action, even though the action is permissible. And that is their saying (Yoma 86a), "What are the circumstances of the desecration of [God’s]name? [Rav said,] 'For example, [someone like] me, if I take meat from a butcher and do not give him money immediately.' ”
Note: “ in the eyes of the masses” - the masses refers to the whole community and when the sin is something that would be a sin for non-Jews as well, ‘the masses’ would include them.
Kal vachomer - where these politicians didn’t do something which just ‘appears as a transgression’.
I would also refer you to another definition of chillul hashem by the Rambam in hilcot talmud torah. Perek 3 Halacha 10: “Anyone who comes to conclusion that he should involve himself with Torah study without doing work and derive his livelihood from charity, *desecrates God’s name*, dishonours the Torah, extinguishes the light of the faith, brings evil upon himself, and forfeits the life of the world to come…’
This is what these chareidi politicians represent and also facilitate on behalf of their communities regardless of whether they have even committed a crime by law.
Wow, you must be a MODOX 'scholar'! The intellectual sloppiness is a dead giveaway: misquoting, taking things out of context and mischaracterizations. The Rambam says very clearly that Chilul Hashem is AVEIROS - not whatever secular society deems out-of-style as Mr Shevin claimed. The Rambam that you quote here supports that. And by the way, sorry to burst your bubble, but the 'masses' that the Rambam is referring to is 'the masses' of Jews. He quotes his source literally a line later which is the famous Gemara in Yuma that says that Chilul Hashem means one sinning openly in public, and for a Talmid Chochom whom 'the masses' look up to with extra reverence, even things that appear to be Aveiros or very minute Aveiros, such as buying on credit or walking around without learning Torah and wearing Tefilin. So I would advise you to look up the Rambam's sources or at least the Hebrew text inside before you start making 'diyukim' from Sefaria translations.
As far as politicians, I never said that a politician who stole is not a Chilul Hashem. It's just a much bigger Chilul Hashem if someone is openly gay - flaunting his aveiros - than someone who denies any wrongdoing to begin with. So in response to Natan's very profound question, the answer is DUH.
As far as the Rambam about Talmud Torah that you quote, see the comment section on this post https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/defying-chazal-is-not-holy for our takedown of Natan. I must say, it's really heartwarming to see how bent MODOX society is on being stringent on an exacting opinion of the Rambam that is by his own admission an outlier and rejected by all normative Poskim (see BY in YD 246, Tashbetz v.1 s 142 -147). Before you go to such spiritual heights, may I suggest making sure to say Birkat Hamazon after eating bread? I've noticed many in the MODOX community don't seem to know or care about the concept. Or if you're bent on Rambams, perhaps the 13 Ikarim? That is an opinion of the Rambam that has been accepted by almost all authorities over the ages (Shapiro's horrifically sloppy book notwithstanding) and the implications are a lot more serious than your other Rambam!!
Igros Moshe about that he would ride a car to shul on Friday afternoon after the time of candle lighting says that there's only Mar'is Ayin when people get the facts wrong. Where they get the Halacha wrong it's neither Mar'is Ayin nor Chillul Hashem.
I would refer you to some of the other comments on this blog which point out that the consensus of authorities disagrees with the Rambam you're citing.
If the politicians are guilty of those crimes, like the secular ones are, and that is known to *Jewish* masses, that's indeed a Chillul Hashem.
No doubt there are those who argue re learning for money. I don’t believe it’s the consensus. Definitely not amongst the rishonim or early acharonim. I was also using a ‘leshitascha’ argument.
"I don’t believe it’s the consensus."
WADR Daniel, please stop believing.
Open up and read the Tashbetz & the Biur Halacha.
Not sure what your point is re Igros Moshe? Is it that he argues with Rambams definition? Are you saying that Deri only looked like he was doing something wrong?
"Not sure what your point is re Igros Moshe? Is it that he argues with Rambams definition?"
No, he adds to it. Chillul Hashem is limited to what's known to Jewish masses, says Rambam. It's further limited to masses who know the Halacha; the remainder don't count, says Igros Moshe.
מכרכר, you're right--I don't. But even in translation, YidPoshut's citation was a lot of haystack containing some valuable but well-hidden needles.
Whether or not my rav's opinion fits a legalistic definition, if kiddush Hashem is what makes Jews look good, then it makes sense to me. As Hashem's representatives to the nations, what we do reflects on Him and on Torah. That's why behaving properly *sanctifies* His name and improper behavior *denigrates* it.
And such sanctification will fulfill the words of the pasuk I cited. As my rav said in the dvar Torah that presented this thesis, the pasuk is telling us that if we keep the Torah properly, other nations will admire us and WANT TO EMULATE US.
But Elliot, the pasuk is saying that if we keep the TORAH properly, the nations will admire us and want to emulate us. What your late rav said is that we should emulate the nations. So with all due respect to your late rav, but I'm not sure where he saw that in the pasuk. One can argue that for PR purposes, we should remain in vogue, but aside from the very obvious problems attempting to chase after a hedonistic secular society, it's entirely your late rav's marketing idea and not reflected in the pasuk at all.
מכרכר, isn't what you protest I failed to say is in fact what I DID say? But I think I left the impression that if the non-Jewish world thinks a particular behavior is good, we should do that to gain their admiration. What my rav said is that the non-Jewish world's reaction is a gauge of how we're doing; if they admire our adherence to Torah, we're getting it right.
By the way, I don't think my rav mentioned kiddush Hashem in his drasha. (It was around thirty years ago.) That's my own inference, but I think it makes sense.
Elliot, these were your words:
"In short, a kiddush Hashem is whatever behavior non-Jews find admirable, and thus a chillul Hashem is whatever they find contemptible."
If I misunderstood and you're not saying that not being into environmentalism or LGBTQ rights or not getting a robust secular education or whatever else is a Chilul Hashem, then great! I guess we're on the same page.
"the pasuk is telling us that if we keep the Torah properly, other nations will admire us and WANT TO EMULATE US"
-Keep the Torah properly, like observing Shabbos and marriage?
-Or limiting it to where Torah and secular ethics coincide?
-Or redefining Torah according to secular ethics?
Don, in case you're addressing me: He meant the first one, but not just mitzvot bein adam lemakom. Indeed, we can't expect the outside world to keep Shabbos--tradition actually says they're not PERMITTED to.
WADR Elliot, the point is their admiring us, not their imitating us. When we keep *for *example, Bein Adam L'Makom such as Shabbos, this, by some mysterious fashion, causes them to admire us. If we are looking for their admiration, we cannot limit our efforts to Bein Adam L'Chaveiro. Such limitation smacks of inconsistency and/or dishonesty.
And if one group limits themselves to BALM and another to BALC, is one group superior to the other?
I see you walked back on that this is connected to Chillul Hashem. That adds clarity. Ty.
Gracious! Ah do declayah I believe I've been insulted. Hold mah julep, Ashley; I feel an attack of the vapahs comin' on.
"my ahavas Yisrael isn't on the level it should be yet (as is clear from my comment)."
Recognition of the malady is the first step toward cure. 😁
It seems to me that if the Rambam's definition is the only valid one, then a kiddush Hashem must therefore also be what's done among Jews and tied to a mitzvah. Aaron Fuerstein continuing to pay his employees after his factory was destroyed by fire wouldn't count because there was no Torah obligation to do so. But did it not bring honor to Torah nonetheless?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Feuerstein
In Bava Metzia 83a, the final Gemara in the 6th Perek, the employer was obligated to pay his bungling workers who were hungry, as a form of piety.
Aaron Feuerstein engaged in this piety and performed a Kiddush Hashem
Gracious! Ah do declah I believe I've been insulted. Hold me, Ashley; I feel an attack of the vapahs comin' on.
"my ahavas Yisrael isn't on the level it should be yet (as is clear from my comment)."
Recognition of the malady is the first step toward cure. 😁
It seems to me that if the Rambam's definition is the only valid one, then a kiddush Hashem must therefore also be what's done among Jews and tied to a mitzvah. Aaron Fuerstein continuing to pay his employees after his factory was destroyed by fire wouldn't count because there was no Torah obligation to do so. But did it not being honor to Torah nonetheless?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Feuerstein
Because here we are in an unusual and bizarre situation where the am ha'aratzim and laymen think that they understand Judaism better than the ones learning Torah the whole day! Kid gloves aint gonna work!
"My late rav pointed out ... In short, a kiddush Hashem is whatever behavior non-Jews find admirable, and thus a chillul Hashem is whatever they find contemptible."
Here I thought the opposite was true, Chillul Hashem depends primarily if it's in front of *Jews*. Then YidPoshut brings a citation to that effect, with no special mention of non-Jews at all.
It is all relative. Within the religious community, a talmid chacham can cause a chillul Hashem bit an ordinary person, no. Within the general Jewish community, any identifiably observant Jew can cause it. In front of gentiles, any Jew can cause it. Moreover, Ohana spoke as Speaker of the Knesset, not as an individual.
Abraham, an excellent point! Who the actor is, and who the observers are, make a difference.
בשו"ת דברי חיים (ח"א חו"מ סי' כה עמ' קכו) במכתב לבנו, כתב: ובעיני ראיתי גודל העושק הנעשה בעיר והכל לש"ש, וגם אם נמנה איזה נאמן מסתמא נוטה אחר הנגידים כידוע וגם אם לפעמים נושאים ונותנים שני אנשים או ג' משני הצדדים דרך שכמה יבואו לרצח אביונים ומי שיתמנה לעסק זה יקויים בו דברי בעל הטורים ז"ל אין אדם נעשה שוטר מלמטה אא"כ נעשה רשע מלמעלה. ולכן אהובי בני צריך להתיישב הרבה אם הוא לטובת השענקרס שרובם עניים כידוע ולא לטובת הנגידים המכוונים לש"ש.
The charedi paries are essentially kehiah organizations of the shtetl. Democracy is a fraud and the chilonim are no better. When were things different? This is human nature and the way of the world. Nothing will change.