Hey! The link for the מצב חירום in Hebrew isn’t working. But thanks for your insights ;)
I recently received messages for a charity campaign from my seminary. I was amazed to see they want to get 1 million. I wonder why they didn’t bother teaching us valuable jobs if they rely on us to sustain them - and our potentially learning husbands.
There is a classic story about a couple who struggled to get their daughter into the prestigious Gateshead seminary, as they simply could not afford the extravagant fees (supporting numerous members of the families of the mechanchim in kollel, nice business if you can get it) and had no protekzia.
In any event, the story goes that the mother went crying to the management saying the reason we are poor is because I went to your seminary and was told to marry nothing less than a ben torah who would dedicate his life to torah etc etc. Apparently, the daughter was accepted.
True or not, I have no idea. But there is a pushback (in the UK anyway) now against these seminaries (especially the Israeli ones) which are basically successful businesses for their owners, as the next generation does not find itself as wealthy as their predecessors, not being able to afford the extravagant fees for learning torah (that should of course be free).
And yet despite knowing the bankruptcy (figurative and literal) and hypocrisy, she- and many others in similar situations- still beg to have their daughters admitted for more of the same.
". But there is a pushback (in the UK anyway) now against these seminaries (especially the Israeli ones) which are basically successful businesses for their owners, as the next generation does not find itself as wealthy as their predecessors"
Mostly true. But there are sem's that are not for profit. That being the case, wouldn't not sending a young woman to seminary save enough money to support a young frugal kollel couple for about a year?
God bless the Bnei Menashe, and I truly mean that, and God bless those who help them, and I mean *that*, but saying "2700 years" is not exactly "rationalist."
This מאי אהנו לן רבנן rhetoric has been around forever, so long that the Gemara talks about it. People who donate to yeshivas are not the type to be swayed by מאי אהנו לן רבנן. You'll have to try something else.
Some people get into all kinds of nitpicking about whether the bochurim qualify as רבנן. And there are two ways in which this reflects an inability to see the wood for the trees. First of all, if bochurim could be warriors, they could be רבנן. The other way in which the perspective is skewed is with regard to the perspective on the value of Torah. Even if they don't qualify as רבנן in a technical sense, the point of the Gemara is the לומדי תורה. And this is exactly how Rabbeinu Yonah says it- כגון האומר מה הועילו אצלנו לומדי התורה
"Even if they don't qualify as רבנן in a technical sense, the point of the Gemara is the לומדי תורה."
So yeshivish. When modox talk like that, chareidim are all over them. But when it suits chareidim, anything can be lav davka. When modox find a single rishon to support something controversial, its rejected. But here a single Rabbeinu Yonah, which can be interpreted easily as rabonon who are the lomdei torah in question*, is happily used as final pesak when it suits.
*Alternatively, you can believe RY just completely changed the meaning of a word. Doesn't say much for the accuracy of TSHBP if rishonim can change words like that, but I digress. What are 'londei torah'? How many hours a day? Learning what (chumsh rashi)? It's too vague to set hanhogo. On the other hand 'Rabbonon' in talmudic times was a much clearer defined role. Apologies if that is a bit to academic.
It's all nonsense anyway. Well over half of chareidim are not rabbonon anyway. By any definition.
It's such a silly rejoinder anyway. EVERYONE, including charedim, believes that there are times when guys need to leave the Beis HaMidrash, whether it's for electioneering or protesting.
I'm sure God is smiling watching you fix the world one post at a time. So now the four cubits of halacha will shrink into oblivion and God will rest His presence... where exactly? How about on those who abstain from hotzaas zera lvatala? Another option mentioned in chazal. - O right! We did away with those in a post years ago!
Actually, who am I kidding? God's presence needing a place to dwell?? That's Zohar hibbie-jibbie stuff! True Judaism is just about getting along with thy neighbor so long as they're not Charedi...
Also, do you really think the world didn't change in so many other ways since 100 years ago? Do you have another place safe for young adults to hide from the internet other than in the BM?
Your response is a bit of an non-sequiter. In fact, yeshivas are very dangerous places for some young adults. But keep your blinkers on and keep spouting the party line.
It is not a non sequitur at all, Einstein. I made the claim that yeshivos are basically the only good path to safety from the internet and we need them tremendously, and you said that they aren't safe there either. That is a problem that needs to be fixed. Some bachurim, especially the many with problems at home need more personal guidance and should go to smaller places with better supervision and personal role models.
The fact that there are people that go to a place not cut for them adds nothing of value to this conversation. At all.
Still in the four cubits of halacha. As he did since the destruction of His temple.
But now there is more of it, why are you complaining?
I also don't think everyone should be leading this life. But calling to not support our most important and fundamental institutions is downright damaging.
If you want to argue anything, argue for less kollelim. Meaning a more rigid acceptance processes for them. (Would love a debate on this point.) But less yeshivos??? Rl!
I can't speak for every yeshiva but the few I know collect on Purim exclusively for poor students in the yeshiva. The money collected is given to the poor students in a discrete manner so to not embarrass them
That would be the case if they are collecting for the עניים. But if the money is going into a general fund that goes to anything else but עניים, it's doesn't "perfectly fit with Matan it leevyonim" . (But other הלכות may be at play too.)
Generally, the beis hamidrash age yeshivas collect for a fund that goes specifically to poor students. You can always ask them if they are collecting for the yeshiva or for the ת"ת of the yeshiva. If the latter, it is for poor students. My son's former yeshiva uses the bulk of the money to pay for dental work and therapy for students whose families cannot afford it.
Hey! The link for the מצב חירום in Hebrew isn’t working. But thanks for your insights ;)
I recently received messages for a charity campaign from my seminary. I was amazed to see they want to get 1 million. I wonder why they didn’t bother teaching us valuable jobs if they rely on us to sustain them - and our potentially learning husbands.
There is a classic story about a couple who struggled to get their daughter into the prestigious Gateshead seminary, as they simply could not afford the extravagant fees (supporting numerous members of the families of the mechanchim in kollel, nice business if you can get it) and had no protekzia.
In any event, the story goes that the mother went crying to the management saying the reason we are poor is because I went to your seminary and was told to marry nothing less than a ben torah who would dedicate his life to torah etc etc. Apparently, the daughter was accepted.
True or not, I have no idea. But there is a pushback (in the UK anyway) now against these seminaries (especially the Israeli ones) which are basically successful businesses for their owners, as the next generation does not find itself as wealthy as their predecessors, not being able to afford the extravagant fees for learning torah (that should of course be free).
And yet despite knowing the bankruptcy (figurative and literal) and hypocrisy, she- and many others in similar situations- still beg to have their daughters admitted for more of the same.
These groups have a hold on people.
Seminaries are not 'groups', Nachum. They are enterprising people filling a demand.
By "groups" I was referring to charedi societies as a whole.
". But there is a pushback (in the UK anyway) now against these seminaries (especially the Israeli ones) which are basically successful businesses for their owners, as the next generation does not find itself as wealthy as their predecessors"
Mostly true. But there are sem's that are not for profit. That being the case, wouldn't not sending a young woman to seminary save enough money to support a young frugal kollel couple for about a year?
I don't quite follow. But never mind.
I fixed the link for the Hebrew PDF - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8qjw8nce4vo6dvowzx1vk/.pdf?rlkey=ua5gu629e05x08tjyh1j03von&dl=0
יישר כחך
God bless the Bnei Menashe, and I truly mean that, and God bless those who help them, and I mean *that*, but saying "2700 years" is not exactly "rationalist."
This מאי אהנו לן רבנן rhetoric has been around forever, so long that the Gemara talks about it. People who donate to yeshivas are not the type to be swayed by מאי אהנו לן רבנן. You'll have to try something else.
The question is whether people believe that 18 year old boys are all רבנן.
Some people get into all kinds of nitpicking about whether the bochurim qualify as רבנן. And there are two ways in which this reflects an inability to see the wood for the trees. First of all, if bochurim could be warriors, they could be רבנן. The other way in which the perspective is skewed is with regard to the perspective on the value of Torah. Even if they don't qualify as רבנן in a technical sense, the point of the Gemara is the לומדי תורה. And this is exactly how Rabbeinu Yonah says it- כגון האומר מה הועילו אצלנו לומדי התורה
"Even if they don't qualify as רבנן in a technical sense, the point of the Gemara is the לומדי תורה."
So yeshivish. When modox talk like that, chareidim are all over them. But when it suits chareidim, anything can be lav davka. When modox find a single rishon to support something controversial, its rejected. But here a single Rabbeinu Yonah, which can be interpreted easily as rabonon who are the lomdei torah in question*, is happily used as final pesak when it suits.
*Alternatively, you can believe RY just completely changed the meaning of a word. Doesn't say much for the accuracy of TSHBP if rishonim can change words like that, but I digress. What are 'londei torah'? How many hours a day? Learning what (chumsh rashi)? It's too vague to set hanhogo. On the other hand 'Rabbonon' in talmudic times was a much clearer defined role. Apologies if that is a bit to academic.
It's all nonsense anyway. Well over half of chareidim are not rabbonon anyway. By any definition.
Lol, you really didn't get it did you? But the Rabbeinu Yonah should be enough.
Its also rashi.
Where? Not in Sanhedrin.
I mean whats the point. The question here is if we believe chazal or not. Who gives which אמורא (besides for interesting trivia)
Hey, Testes, how are you. Glad you came out of the woodwork again when you smell Haredi blood.
It's such a silly rejoinder anyway. EVERYONE, including charedim, believes that there are times when guys need to leave the Beis HaMidrash, whether it's for electioneering or protesting.
Huh? This post was about the מאי אהנו לן רבנן position you were so accurately expressing. Please don't change the subject.
Tell me, who wrote the mimrah 'mei ahani leh rabonon'?
Who did?
The Rabbonon. Go figure!
What a hero, rabbi doctor, you are!
I'm sure God is smiling watching you fix the world one post at a time. So now the four cubits of halacha will shrink into oblivion and God will rest His presence... where exactly? How about on those who abstain from hotzaas zera lvatala? Another option mentioned in chazal. - O right! We did away with those in a post years ago!
Actually, who am I kidding? God's presence needing a place to dwell?? That's Zohar hibbie-jibbie stuff! True Judaism is just about getting along with thy neighbor so long as they're not Charedi...
Where did Hashem rest His presence before there were 100,000 people in yeshivah - like, one generation ago?
"God created man in his image and man returned the favor."
?
Also, do you really think the world didn't change in so many other ways since 100 years ago? Do you have another place safe for young adults to hide from the internet other than in the BM?
Come on. Do you know how many mirrer bochurim spend some of their time surfing the internet in their diros?
I do not. Do you?
If some do, we need to fix that problem, not close down the yeshivos on account of some delinquents.
Yes. I do.
Your response is a bit of an non-sequiter. In fact, yeshivas are very dangerous places for some young adults. But keep your blinkers on and keep spouting the party line.
It is not a non sequitur at all, Einstein. I made the claim that yeshivos are basically the only good path to safety from the internet and we need them tremendously, and you said that they aren't safe there either. That is a problem that needs to be fixed. Some bachurim, especially the many with problems at home need more personal guidance and should go to smaller places with better supervision and personal role models.
The fact that there are people that go to a place not cut for them adds nothing of value to this conversation. At all.
Thats why we learn in yeshivot? Whats wrong with saying ליכא דרכא אחרינא and thats it? You cant avoid it forever.
Still in the four cubits of halacha. As he did since the destruction of His temple.
But now there is more of it, why are you complaining?
I also don't think everyone should be leading this life. But calling to not support our most important and fundamental institutions is downright damaging.
If you want to argue anything, argue for less kollelim. Meaning a more rigid acceptance processes for them. (Would love a debate on this point.) But less yeshivos??? Rl!
I can't speak for every yeshiva but the few I know collect on Purim exclusively for poor students in the yeshiva. The money collected is given to the poor students in a discrete manner so to not embarrass them
The charedi Yeshivat collect money on purim to help the poor talmidim perfectly fits with Matan it leevyonim
That would be the case if they are collecting for the עניים. But if the money is going into a general fund that goes to anything else but עניים, it's doesn't "perfectly fit with Matan it leevyonim" . (But other הלכות may be at play too.)
Generally, the beis hamidrash age yeshivas collect for a fund that goes specifically to poor students. You can always ask them if they are collecting for the yeshiva or for the ת"ת of the yeshiva. If the latter, it is for poor students. My son's former yeshiva uses the bulk of the money to pay for dental work and therapy for students whose families cannot afford it.
What's the Hebrew font in the pdf, please?