Even my second grader knows that Yaacov did three things to prepare to meet Eisav, at the start of Parshat Vayeshev: One was prayer, one was placate with gifts, and one was preparing for physical battle.
Dovid Hamelech was renown for both Torah learning and military prowess.
The generations of Moshe and Joshua had to be righteous and pray, but they also had to actually fight to conquer the land.
The Torah lists explicitly who was exempt from fighting, and it wasn’t those who learn Torah.
Except some prefer to identify with the galut Jew, week and relying on shtetl legends, rather than the strong Jew in its natural environment or eretz, sword in one hand and Torah in the other one.
Great that your second grader will likely identify with the latter.
He prepared for physical battle. All you're doing is to provide your description of his preparation for physical battle. Nothing you write negates JK's point. (But see also the Ramban's citation of קהלת רבה. See also משכיל לדוד.)
No. I'm showing that the preparation for battle was not a preparation for natural battle. He split the camp, and that's all. And with that strategy (pathetic by any natural standards) Yaakov Avinu traveled TOWARD Esav and not away from him.
But you can't look at the whole picture at once because it will contradict your non-Jewish narrative of Jewish history.
If you would read that whole chapter of Tehillim, you would know that that pasuk does not apply at every moment in time.
In verse 2 alone (and even without mefarshim) you would see that it is talking about when the "children of Tzion rejoice in their King" which means that this whole chapter is dealing with a time in which Am Yisroel has a king. If you wasn't to say otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.
In verse 7 "to take vengeance upon the nations and [make] reproof in the nations". This is not the situation today. The state of Israel is in no state of righteousness to be giving reproof.
Etc. etc. etc. And then there's the commentaries as well.
You should be listening and not talking. Perhaps you should sit down and learn something -lots of things- before you start proclaiming what you think the Torah is saying.
So you're the one who decides when is the proper moment? There are hundreds of Rabbis based on the sources who argue we have to prepare for battle. Is their opinion not valid?
Gdalya sez: "Yaakov's preparation for physical battle... "
Gdalya sez: "..The preparation for battle was not a preparation for natural battle..."
" And with that strategy (pathetic by any natural standards) "
See משכיל לדוד:
לפי שכיון ששמע שעשו בא לערוך מלחמה נגדו היה מתיירא מברכת אביו והידים ידי עשו שאם יעשה ינצח ומכח זה מה עשה חלק הכל לשני מחנות ואמר בודאי והיה המחנה הנשאר לפליטה שהרי אני אלחם עמו להציל המחנה הראשון ואם הוא יתגבר מכח ברכת יצחק והידים ידי עשו אז בהכרח צריך שיתקיים ג״כ על המחנה האחר
He was not relying on natural means; anybody in their right mind would flee Esav and four hundred men (and Chazal say 400 officers commanding who remembers how many under each).
2.
What was Yaakov fearing? In the words of Maskil LDovid that you brought:
"היה מתיירא מברכת אביו והידים ידי עשו"
First of all, the BRACHA that Esav received, which is by no means a natural thing. And secondly, Esavs hands, which, if not for the bracha, he may not have feared at all.
According to the Cult Education Institute, there are specific warning signs to look out for when considering whether a group might be a cult. Cults are characterized by:
Absolute authoritarianism without accountability
Zero tolerance for criticism or questions
Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget
Unreasonable fears about the outside world that often involve evil conspiracies and persecutions
A belief that former followers are always wrong for leaving and there is never a legitimate reason for anyone else to leave
Abuse of members
Records, books, articles, or programs documenting the abuses of the leader or group
Followers feeling they are never able to be “good enough”
A belief that the leader is right at all times
A belief that the leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or giving validation
I cannot speak to the expertise of the Cult Education Institute, but the above was cut and pasted from their website, with no modification. As for its applicability to the case at hand, feel free to judge for yourself.
It's disturbing that they won't participate in Israeli life and defense, won';t recognize the gov't construct, but want the gov't (that they don't accept) to give them handouts. And worst (in my mind) is the lying and deception. To me, if you lie to or deceive me, I may never be able to trust you again, and if I can, when.
And just how, in your mind, do you figure that this is Bibi's fault? You sound like many of the sufferers of Trump Derangement Syndrone who ERRONEOUSLY constructed false scenarios to blame everyone, especially Trump, for the follies and crimes of the leftists/socialists.
People act rational when it is in their interests to do so. It is the politics driving them to these silly statements, not their embrace of Rav Chaim Volozhiner. All religion is irrational at some level. I think that you have the causality reversed here.
One thing that struck me is something that is pointed out below as well: I don't think anyone- Right, Left, whatever- has assumed that the fall of Assad is a certain unalloyed good. Obviously Assad is a monster and Syria was a threat and we're better off without them, not to mention what this says about the whole Iran axis. But to start proclaiming this as the hand of God- whoops, the work of charedi yeshiva students- before we even know how it will pan out? The new guy in charge is a child-murderer, for God's sake. Israel isn't pulling out of the Syrian side of the border anytime soon, and a good thing too. But this genius knows everything ahead of time.
Your third comment is ridiculous. Those claiming Torah is defeating our enemies are involving Hashem in the picture much more than you ever do with all your talk of physical hishtadlus. Your whole theology is that Hashem isn't really in the picture, rather he lets us take things in our hands, whereas the Charedim believe that Hashem runs everything and responds based on our actions.
I see Dati communities very busy with fighting and with prayer (extra tehillim, avinu malkeinu, prayers for the hostages, for wounded soldiers). How do you see us leaving Hashem out of the picture?
It is only in (?many ?most) Haredi shuls and communities that the war is virtually ignored, both in terms of fighting and prayer. I don't know how that shows a greater acknowledgement of G-d.
He must have had some serious issues with Los Angeles, Pacific Palisades and southern Calif. — almost as much as he had with Sodom and Gemorrah. I think Angelinos have reported pillars of salt mysteriously popping up in the vicinity of Pico Blvd.
And don’t get me started on Iceland! All those volcanos threatening to incinerate Rejkjevic. What does he have against Iceland?
I'm sorry but I thought this was an Orthodox forum. We don't believe in a vengeful deity who throws lightning bolts at those who anger Him. That doesn't preclude controlling nature and determining who lives and who dies (see Unesaneh Tokef)
You don’t believe in a vengeful deity. TANACH is replete with Hashem’s promise of vengeance if his commands and prohibitions aren’t adhered to, from the smallest to the largest transgression. Sodom & Gemorrah and Noach’s deluge wasn’t Hashem’s vengeance? Those are very funny Havdallah Besomim that you’re smoking.
California and Iceland must have sinned exceedingly. I wonder what they did?
When you’re unprepared to respond to obvious contradictions in your perception of Hashem’s retribution, your only recourse is to accuse someone of trolling. Sounds like you could use a bit more insight than your insubstantial education provided.
"Those claiming Torah is defeating our enemies are involving Hashem in the picture much more than you ever do with all your talk of physical hishtadlus."
This claim is unclear. Are you comparing "those claiming Torah.." to "talk of physical hishtadlus"? Or Torah study and actual (not talking) "physical hishtadlus"?
"The Rosh Yeshiva quotes a lone aggadic teaching about Yaakov’s “sword and bow” referring to his wisdom and prayers. He takes this view as literal and definitive, extrapolates from it that military action never has any genuine significance. "
It's more than a lone aggada, it's Onkelos.
In any case, I don't think the פשט is that יעקב never took up arms.
Uncle Lewis’ is actually a compendium of translators and commentators. So you can’t really say with accuracy who’s opinion any particular statement it.
"without the IDF even having to make a pretense of doing anything."
"Third, as even some in the yeshiva world realized with shock, there is a striking downplaying of God. It’s all about the “power” of learning Torah, with barely a mention of Hashem. Torah simply becomes another type of weapon, a manifestation of “kochi v’otzem yadi.”
From דרש משה:
שדורו של דוד המלך שהיה דור צדיק והאמין בה', לכן יכל דוד לבקש מה' לנצח במלחמה בדרך הטבע משום ש"גם אם ילחם עמהם בנשק וכל עניני המלחמה וישיגם וינצחם, ידעו כל ישראל כי השי"ת עשה הישועה, אבל אסא בדורו שלא היו כל כך בעלי בטחון היה ירא שאם יעשה מלחמה דהיינו שירדוף וישיגם וינצחם יאמרו ח"ו שכחם עשה זה, לכן בקש מהשי"ת שהוא רק ירדוף ויעשה נס שיפלו חללים אף קודם שהשיגם, ויהושפט שהיה חושש מדורו שנתקטן באמונה אמר שגם לרדוף הוא ירא שמא יאמרו שהם נצחו מעצמם, ולכן התפלל שהקב"ה יכה והוא רק יאמר שירה, וחזקיה ירא גם לומר שירה שמא ח"ו יאמרו שזה עזר מעין סגולה, ולכן אמר שאין בו כח אף לומר שירה.."
When one has lived long enough, one gets more and more skeptical that world events are simple and can be boiled down to action A or item B caused world event C, whether spiritual or physical realms. It's more more complex than that and silly to think otherwise. E.G. this specific act of charity saved or will save a kid's life! ....... But the neighbor kid that then dies from cancer the next day? Hmm, well I don't know... Same with a war... We do our best but it is foolish to point to specific religious causations for success or failures. One who does so is kind of being a false prophet if you think about it IMHO.
That's not a conspiracy. It's an open crime on the one part and stupidity bordering on evil on the other, and it has been well-known to anyone who was interested for decades.
You never served, have no training in combat or intelligence, are actually lacking in intelligence and have more belief in conspiracies than RFK, better to stay silent and not give evidence of your foolishness
Individuals, both soldiers and volunteers demonstrated heroism beyond anything we can imagine. Remember, Hamas' plan was to cut Israel in half, and within 3-4 days, the fighting moved out of Israel's territory.
The army leadership, unfortunately, was caught horribly unprepared
That's the whole point, it wasn't caught unprepared, that is the whole goal of the leadership. It took them hours to react. That's not unpreparedness, that's premeditated. They don't believe in winning wars. That is why a very inferior army was able to do what they did.
"The Rosh Yeshiva quotes a lone aggadic teaching..."
Just pointing out, it's not a lone teaching. Yaakov's "preparation for war" (when Esav was approaching) that everybody likes to quote was nothing more than splitting the camp into two. And even that was not exactly what you think... but let's stick with the first point, he didn't exactly "prepare for war" even though that is what was said. There are more. But whatever.
The Torah does not describe Yaakov preparing for fighting. Eisav had hundreds of men, there wouldn't have been a point. In fact this further disproves the charedi approach, because if numbers don't matter, why didn't Yaakov prepare for actual fighting? After all, that's certainly what the Bnei Yisrael did in every situation.
Not in every situation. And even in the situations in which they did, many times they did so in ways that no natural army would (e.g., Gidon). You always ignore this. And when someone mentions it, you try to slither out of it.
So we have endless situations where the Bnie Yisrael actually physically fought, and a few cases of miracles. And you think that today we should follow the cases of miracles?
We should fight like a Jewish army. Start by sending away from the battle field every tamme keri, and also every soldier who has ANY aveyra (ast least as minor as talking between putting on hand and head tefillin let alone kfirah, chilul Shabbos, b'ilas nidah and other znus etc.). THAT is how the Torah says a Jewish army should fight.
Then see how many soldiers you have left.
(Of course, you'll come back with: "well then let the Charedim fight". But you'll be slithering away from the point, which is that the IDF is NOT a Jewish army.)
I think we should listen to the Chachmey HaTorah. And if they say this is not the time to fight (even if it is because we should now rely on a HaShem alone) then that is what we should do.
Interesting to note:
One Chacham that the "Torah uMada" camp uses as one of its poster-boys is R' Shamshon Rephael Hirsch. And here is something R' Hirsch says:
"... when, during the reign of Hadrian, the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for all times that Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its own power; it is to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine providence. Therefore ... the Sages ... added yet another blessing (the fourth blessing to the grace-after-meals) ... an acknowledgement that it has always been G-d and G-d alone Who has given us, and still gives us to this very day, that good in which we have cause to rejoice, and that for future good, too, we may look to non other but G-d, and none beside him."
Says R' S"R Hirsch, the reason that in the fourth blessing of every grace-after-meals, the miracle of the unburied bodies that didn't rot in Beitar is recalled and that we give thanks for being able to finally bury them all in the fourth bracha of bentching is to remind us that we should "never again attempt to restore its national independence by its own power".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the Rambam paskin that way? Implication from Hilchos Melachim 7:5-8 is that he doesn't.
Ironically, the case of Gidon seems to show the opposite of your point - if not for the explicit command to send away those who seemed to be accustomed to avoda zara, Gidon would otherwise have used thousands of soldiers who were clearly religiously suspect. Given that the command to use so few soldiers is an outlier in Tanach's record of Jewish wars, the implication is that sinful soldiers generally are used.
"... the implication is that sinful soldiers generally are used."
Not true. Gidon is not the place from which we learn that sinners are sent away. It even made its way from Chazal into Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 54:3), where it says that someone who speaks between "Yishtabach" and (the bracha of) "Yotzer (Or)" returns from the battle array. And that is not the only "small" avera about which this is said (another example: Sota 44b about speaking between putting on hand and head tfillin), kal vachomer that bigger averos will require one to leave the battle field.
2.
"does the Rambam paskin that way?"
Yes he does. In those halachos he is making qualifications about which of such cases are not exempt.
And don't forget about the tamey keri. You will probably lose almost the entire IDF to that one. Are you going to send all the girls to battle in their place (which is a different issur)?
3.
"the case of Gidon seems to show the opposite of your point - if not for the explicit command"
Gidon's is not an isolated case and others were not commanded by HaShem. Example: Chizkiyahu. Furthermore, the zionist camp loves to point at Tanach for a model for Jewish warfare today (which is the reason that I bring these examples). But the truth is that Yaakov Avinu and Chazal have taught us to behave differently in the time of galus (since the destruction of the FIRST Temple).
Also, Gidon asked the angel "וְאַיֵּה כָל נִפְלְאֹתָיו" "where are His wonders (i.e., miracles), i.e., where is HaShem's miraculous salvation. That was before HaShem commanded anything. But today they say, "We must do it by the might of our own hand" and some add "then HaShem will save us".
4.
"if not for the explicit command to send away those who seemed to be accustomed to avoda zara"
You are assuming that these people were still sinners who worship avoda zara. But they were not; they were accustomed to such bowing because they used to do avoda zara in the past, but they must have since done teshuva. How do we know? Because sinners are sent home frorm battle, as I will show in #5 below.
And even if they had not yet done teshuvah, Hashem told him how to sift out the idol worshippers as Gidon could not otherwise know who was and who was not an idol worshipper.
5.
"Given that the command to use so few soldiers is an outlier"
I'm going to listen to YOU explaining what the Torah wants us to do in a given situations instead of listening to people far greater than you in Torah and Yiras Shomayim and who have spent their entire lives immersed in Torah?
How wise of you to resort to the "When did you stop beating your wife" strategy. If this is your strategy, you clearly don't have much to stand on.
There is no Chacham haTorah in the world that denies that there is a Torah obligation to engage in a milchemes mitzvah and you know it. And to imply it in such a way that it should be accepted under-the-radar by your comment's readers is dishonest. SHAME ON YOU.
The disagreement between you and the Chachmey Hatorah on this issue of milchemes mitzvah is not if there is such a Torah obligation but whether or not this is a milchemes mitzvah (as shown in the meeting between Rav Lando and the soldier named Erez).
Don't be obtuse. You and Slifkin and co. do this all the time.
You say, well that's just one example (in fact, Slifkin did that in this very article referencing a "lone aggadic teaching" which is not so lone). The implication being that if there were more, then I would have a point. Then when I bring more and more and more examples, and also Torah directives that show that this is how Jews are instructed to fight a battle, then you all stammer and slither and start to do gymnastics to try and get out of it.
When I show (with mareh mkomos) that the State of Israel and the IDF way is not the way Jews are supposed to act in galus, you refer to the Tanach. So then I show that what is in Tanach is also not the way the state and the IDF is acting, and then you say it's a lone source. And then I bring lot's of sources. And you slither out of it with your invented pshetlach that have no source and contradict Chazal's explanations.
But you won't hear any of this. It will all go right over your head. I'm writing this in case I can prevent someone else from being perverted by your rhetoric.
You should really respect your readers more. Apparently you think they don't know much.
I've brought many examples in the comments section of many of your posts. You know that. If you want to ignore that, its your choice to be dishonest about it.
that I'm not even going to reply to this. they were good examples and you can misleadingly rename them whatever you want. In the article Slifkin even admitted to one which he called a "lone" example. But there are plenty of others which I have brought numerous times.
And in either case, since the destruction of the first Temple, we have never taken up arms without permission of the goyim unless it was to defend our right to keep the Torah. Another thing that you have not answered.
Except of course Bar Kochva. But to that we have R' S"R Hirsch to explain: "... when, during the reign of Hadrian, the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for all times that Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its own power; it is to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine providence."
While a religious Jew diligently fulfills all the commandments as prescribed by Jewish law, as found in texts such as the Shulchan Aruch and the Rambam, a Christian follows a different path, choosing to disregard Jewish law and instead adhere to the teachings of a prophet. On this divergence in approach "Rabbi Yoḥanan said: From the day that the Temple was destroyed, prophecy was taken from the prophets and given to imbeciles and children" (B. Bava Batra, 12 b).
Fourth, the downfall of Assad, while wonderful for the people he oppressed, is probably not such a positive development for Israel's security to begin with.
Not that all the rebel groups are good, but in the short and medium term it is a huge plus. The Russia Iran Syria Hezbollah Axis of Genocide has been severed. The influence of Russia and Iran in the region has been greatly diminished. The anti-Russia anti-Iran anti-Syria anti-Hezbollah candidate for President of Lebanon (supported by Biden and opposed by Trump) was just elected there. And given that the Assad regime was the single most murderous regime in the world today, propped up by the second worst, it is hard to imagine any of the rebel groups being worse. The Assad regime may have murdered more people than all Islamic terrorists put together.
"it is hard to imagine any of the rebel groups being worse."
Normal people like you don't have that kind of imagination. But basically a pragmatic non-fanatic murderer has been replace by a pragmatic fanatic who hasn't started mass murdering yet. All honeymoons must come to an end.
It reminds me of the (fictional) words of Henry VIII: "Six wives, and the best of them's the worst."
I am well aware that Lenin was worse than Czar Nicholas, Stalin was worse than Lenin, and Mao worse than Chiang. But the group that overthrew Assad only controls about 1/4 of the country, is not supported by Iran, has no influence in Lebanon, and seems to want Russia out. All those are pluses.
I am reading Winston Churchill's six volume narrative of World War 2. Churchill realized on June 22, 1941, that he had to go all in to support Stalin.
Assad was more like Hitler and Stalin. He would have swallowed up Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, and Israel had he been able to -- and he would have had the support of Russia and Iran. It isn't possible to eliminate Iran but the end of the Assad regime has set it back decades in its hegemony and resulted in someone who might be reasonable leading Lebanon at least for a while.
"And given that the Assad regime was the single most murderous regime in the world today, propped up by the second worst, it is hard to imagine any of the rebel groups being worse."
Two big problems with this. Islamist regimes are quite oppressive to those who don't hew to the religion. Women's rights eliminated. You may simply end up trading one kind of oppression for another.
The bigger issue, is that Assad's Syria, like the regimes in Egypt and Jordan, really have no beef with Israel remaining as a sovereign country. Syria wanted the Golan back and maybe cared a little about the Palestinian cause and then got involved with Hezbollah to remain propped up. Israel would have been much better off if there had never been a Syrian civil war.
The new regime is Islamist which means that Israel's existence is something that should not be in their worldview. It is the difference between Morsi and el-Sisi. Morsi had more popular support, but as an Islamist, he was headed to greater and greater conflicts with Israel. el-Sisi is a strongman, but he is fundamentally reconciled to peace and co-existence with Israel.
"Assad's Syria, like the regimes in Egypt and Jordan, really have no beef with Israel remaining as a sovereign country. "
That is a false statement. The Assad regime has long believed in "Greater Syria". That means the current Syria, plus Lebanon, plus Jordan, plus Palestine, plus Israel. Hezbollah was Assad's vehicle for eventually swallowing up Lebanon. Hezbollah was until just weeks ago the most powerful political party in Lebanon and the main party in the government. No more.
Too many Israel supporters are blind to the fact that the issue isn't just Islam vs. Judaism.
Hezbollah was Assad's vehicle for remaining in power and he was Hezbollah and Iran's pawn because he needed them to stay in power. No civil war and Hezbollah would not have been in Syria like that at all. You are just wrong about this and about the Islamist threat. Also, you are conflating Islam the religion with Islamist movements like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and HTS almost certainly is. No doubt Islam itself is not in conflict with the existence of Israel. Just as Judaism is not inherently in conflict with Palestinian rights even though the current version of political Religious Zionism currently in power in Israel is.
I agree that the side effect of removing Assad was lessening Hezbollah and Iran (a different set of Islamist) influence in Syria.
Houston, we have a problem. The statements made by this rabbi, claiming that yeshiva students are the ultimate winners who defeat terrorists and terror-sponsoring states, are rooted in the Talmud. While rabbinical Judaism, based on the Talmud and midrashim, differs significantly from the Mosaic religion, it emerged in the Diaspora and is filled with mystical beliefs, exaggerated claims, and simplistic proverbs often regarded as divine promises.
When reality contradicts the Talmud, especially in areas like medicine, the haredim prioritize reality, seeking out the best doctors and treatments. However, when reality aligns with the Talmud (as in the current war, where others fight for them), they attribute the IDF success to their Torah study.
Not only Hamas prior to Oct 7th, or arguably every terror attack led by small cells belonging to some of the murderous Iunatics around us.
I would add the following: in the pre-WW2 golden age of eastern European yeshivot, how come the cataclysm was avoided? We always talk about ירידת הדורות , but interestingly only the present generation of Charedi yeshivot in Israel have such mega super duper powers?
"Third, as even some in the yeshiva world realized with shock, there is a striking downplaying of God. It’s all about the “power” of learning Torah, with barely a mention of Hashem."
The helplessness bred by Kabbalistic "Torah super power" determinism is no better better the helplessness that results from scientific determinism.
“helplessness that results from scientific determinism”
Scientific determinism has not resulted in any helplessness on my part nor has resulted In overwhelming incapacity of clear methodical scientific discipline. Indeed, scientific determinism hasn’t been too keen a scientific notion. So, what are you talking about?
Can you explain further? Even if physics is deterministic in principle, in practice, it is not because none of us are Laplace’s demon. And the Born rule means the future is not deterministic even in principle.
I meant mainly the scientific determinism (such as it is) of the science vs religion free-will debates. If scientific determinism bothers people, mystical Torah-power determinism is little better. Just the mechanism is different.
"a religious worldview which is illogical, foolish, anti-traditional, and veering on idolatry. "
Um, well, yes, their view might be more illogical and foolish that some other worldviews, but consider where you're starting from. If you start from a position of believing crazy things without any evidence and building these up into metaphysical truths that cannot be questioned, as pretty much every religious body of thought does, then you really can't be surprised that people end up with illogical and foolish ideas. That's exactly what they started with. If you want to say to them, "Listen, let's be rational, let's evaluate the evidence" you're going to have to take more than a few steps back, I'm afraid.
Even my second grader knows that Yaacov did three things to prepare to meet Eisav, at the start of Parshat Vayeshev: One was prayer, one was placate with gifts, and one was preparing for physical battle.
Dovid Hamelech was renown for both Torah learning and military prowess.
The generations of Moshe and Joshua had to be righteous and pray, but they also had to actually fight to conquer the land.
The Torah lists explicitly who was exempt from fighting, and it wasn’t those who learn Torah.
It does however exempt cowards from fighting.
Except some prefer to identify with the galut Jew, week and relying on shtetl legends, rather than the strong Jew in its natural environment or eretz, sword in one hand and Torah in the other one.
Great that your second grader will likely identify with the latter.
Exactly let them at least be honest and admit they are cowards
Yaakov's preparation for physical battle was to divide the camps into two. That's all.
He prepared for physical battle. All you're doing is to provide your description of his preparation for physical battle. Nothing you write negates JK's point. (But see also the Ramban's citation of קהלת רבה. See also משכיל לדוד.)
No. I'm showing that the preparation for battle was not a preparation for natural battle. He split the camp, and that's all. And with that strategy (pathetic by any natural standards) Yaakov Avinu traveled TOWARD Esav and not away from him.
But you can't look at the whole picture at once because it will contradict your non-Jewish narrative of Jewish history.
רוֹמְמ֣וֹת אֵ֭ל בִּגְרוֹנָ֑ם וְחֶ֖רֶב פִּיפִיּ֣וֹת בְּיָדָֽם
With paeans to God in their throats
And two-edged swords in their hands
Psalm 149:6
The psalmist begs to differ.
If you would read that whole chapter of Tehillim, you would know that that pasuk does not apply at every moment in time.
In verse 2 alone (and even without mefarshim) you would see that it is talking about when the "children of Tzion rejoice in their King" which means that this whole chapter is dealing with a time in which Am Yisroel has a king. If you wasn't to say otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.
In verse 7 "to take vengeance upon the nations and [make] reproof in the nations". This is not the situation today. The state of Israel is in no state of righteousness to be giving reproof.
Etc. etc. etc. And then there's the commentaries as well.
You should be listening and not talking. Perhaps you should sit down and learn something -lots of things- before you start proclaiming what you think the Torah is saying.
So you're the one who decides when is the proper moment? There are hundreds of Rabbis based on the sources who argue we have to prepare for battle. Is their opinion not valid?
Gdalya sez: "Yaakov's preparation for physical battle... "
Gdalya sez: "..The preparation for battle was not a preparation for natural battle..."
" And with that strategy (pathetic by any natural standards) "
See משכיל לדוד:
לפי שכיון ששמע שעשו בא לערוך מלחמה נגדו היה מתיירא מברכת אביו והידים ידי עשו שאם יעשה ינצח ומכח זה מה עשה חלק הכל לשני מחנות ואמר בודאי והיה המחנה הנשאר לפליטה שהרי אני אלחם עמו להציל המחנה הראשון ואם הוא יתגבר מכח ברכת יצחק והידים ידי עשו אז בהכרח צריך שיתקיים ג״כ על המחנה האחר
1.
He was not relying on natural means; anybody in their right mind would flee Esav and four hundred men (and Chazal say 400 officers commanding who remembers how many under each).
2.
What was Yaakov fearing? In the words of Maskil LDovid that you brought:
"היה מתיירא מברכת אביו והידים ידי עשו"
First of all, the BRACHA that Esav received, which is by no means a natural thing. And secondly, Esavs hands, which, if not for the bracha, he may not have feared at all.
"First of all... And secondly..."
The "secondly" negates the "first of all". Hence as you said, ""Yaakov's preparation for physical battle... "
", Esavs hands, which, if not for the bracha, he may not have feared at all."
But he did fear Esav's hands and therefor he had to prepare "for physical battle... " as you've said.
"He was not relying on natural means"
That's not what משכיל לדוד writes.
What is a BERACHA according to you?
According to the Cult Education Institute, there are specific warning signs to look out for when considering whether a group might be a cult. Cults are characterized by:
Absolute authoritarianism without accountability
Zero tolerance for criticism or questions
Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget
Unreasonable fears about the outside world that often involve evil conspiracies and persecutions
A belief that former followers are always wrong for leaving and there is never a legitimate reason for anyone else to leave
Abuse of members
Records, books, articles, or programs documenting the abuses of the leader or group
Followers feeling they are never able to be “good enough”
A belief that the leader is right at all times
A belief that the leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or giving validation
I don't think any cult expert would agree with you.
I cannot speak to the expertise of the Cult Education Institute, but the above was cut and pasted from their website, with no modification. As for its applicability to the case at hand, feel free to judge for yourself.
" As for its applicability to the case at hand, feel free to judge for yourself. "
It's not applicable. There are cults in the Charedi world. But the Charedi world is not a cult.
You should do more than read a check list. Read up on victims of real cults.
It's disturbing that they won't participate in Israeli life and defense, won';t recognize the gov't construct, but want the gov't (that they don't accept) to give them handouts. And worst (in my mind) is the lying and deception. To me, if you lie to or deceive me, I may never be able to trust you again, and if I can, when.
Don't forget their enablers, i.e. Bibi.
And just how, in your mind, do you figure that this is Bibi's fault? You sound like many of the sufferers of Trump Derangement Syndrone who ERRONEOUSLY constructed false scenarios to blame everyone, especially Trump, for the follies and crimes of the leftists/socialists.
People act rational when it is in their interests to do so. It is the politics driving them to these silly statements, not their embrace of Rav Chaim Volozhiner. All religion is irrational at some level. I think that you have the causality reversed here.
One thing that struck me is something that is pointed out below as well: I don't think anyone- Right, Left, whatever- has assumed that the fall of Assad is a certain unalloyed good. Obviously Assad is a monster and Syria was a threat and we're better off without them, not to mention what this says about the whole Iran axis. But to start proclaiming this as the hand of God- whoops, the work of charedi yeshiva students- before we even know how it will pan out? The new guy in charge is a child-murderer, for God's sake. Israel isn't pulling out of the Syrian side of the border anytime soon, and a good thing too. But this genius knows everything ahead of time.
Your third comment is ridiculous. Those claiming Torah is defeating our enemies are involving Hashem in the picture much more than you ever do with all your talk of physical hishtadlus. Your whole theology is that Hashem isn't really in the picture, rather he lets us take things in our hands, whereas the Charedim believe that Hashem runs everything and responds based on our actions.
I see Dati communities very busy with fighting and with prayer (extra tehillim, avinu malkeinu, prayers for the hostages, for wounded soldiers). How do you see us leaving Hashem out of the picture?
It is only in (?many ?most) Haredi shuls and communities that the war is virtually ignored, both in terms of fighting and prayer. I don't know how that shows a greater acknowledgement of G-d.
I have no problem with Dati communities. My problem is with Slifkin's hypocritical approach
@Refoel Zev,
Hashem controls everything?
He must have had some serious issues with Los Angeles, Pacific Palisades and southern Calif. — almost as much as he had with Sodom and Gemorrah. I think Angelinos have reported pillars of salt mysteriously popping up in the vicinity of Pico Blvd.
And don’t get me started on Iceland! All those volcanos threatening to incinerate Rejkjevic. What does he have against Iceland?
I'm sorry but I thought this was an Orthodox forum. We don't believe in a vengeful deity who throws lightning bolts at those who anger Him. That doesn't preclude controlling nature and determining who lives and who dies (see Unesaneh Tokef)
@Refoel Zev,
You don’t believe in a vengeful deity. TANACH is replete with Hashem’s promise of vengeance if his commands and prohibitions aren’t adhered to, from the smallest to the largest transgression. Sodom & Gemorrah and Noach’s deluge wasn’t Hashem’s vengeance? Those are very funny Havdallah Besomim that you’re smoking.
California and Iceland must have sinned exceedingly. I wonder what they did?
I'm not interested in your trolling.
@Refoel Zev,
When you’re unprepared to respond to obvious contradictions in your perception of Hashem’s retribution, your only recourse is to accuse someone of trolling. Sounds like you could use a bit more insight than your insubstantial education provided.
"Those claiming Torah is defeating our enemies are involving Hashem in the picture much more than you ever do with all your talk of physical hishtadlus."
This claim is unclear. Are you comparing "those claiming Torah.." to "talk of physical hishtadlus"? Or Torah study and actual (not talking) "physical hishtadlus"?
I'm comparing the approach of the Charedim vs. what Slifkin believes to be the only proper approach.
"The Rosh Yeshiva quotes a lone aggadic teaching about Yaakov’s “sword and bow” referring to his wisdom and prayers. He takes this view as literal and definitive, extrapolates from it that military action never has any genuine significance. "
It's more than a lone aggada, it's Onkelos.
In any case, I don't think the פשט is that יעקב never took up arms.
It actually doesn't appear in many old manuscripts of Onkelos.
Interesting.
Uncle Lewis’ is actually a compendium of translators and commentators. So you can’t really say with accuracy who’s opinion any particular statement it.
Probably your corrector played a little game there, your onkelos became uncle Lewis
Nope. I did it on purpose…as per schlock rock
"without the IDF even having to make a pretense of doing anything."
"Third, as even some in the yeshiva world realized with shock, there is a striking downplaying of God. It’s all about the “power” of learning Torah, with barely a mention of Hashem. Torah simply becomes another type of weapon, a manifestation of “kochi v’otzem yadi.”
From דרש משה:
שדורו של דוד המלך שהיה דור צדיק והאמין בה', לכן יכל דוד לבקש מה' לנצח במלחמה בדרך הטבע משום ש"גם אם ילחם עמהם בנשק וכל עניני המלחמה וישיגם וינצחם, ידעו כל ישראל כי השי"ת עשה הישועה, אבל אסא בדורו שלא היו כל כך בעלי בטחון היה ירא שאם יעשה מלחמה דהיינו שירדוף וישיגם וינצחם יאמרו ח"ו שכחם עשה זה, לכן בקש מהשי"ת שהוא רק ירדוף ויעשה נס שיפלו חללים אף קודם שהשיגם, ויהושפט שהיה חושש מדורו שנתקטן באמונה אמר שגם לרדוף הוא ירא שמא יאמרו שהם נצחו מעצמם, ולכן התפלל שהקב"ה יכה והוא רק יאמר שירה, וחזקיה ירא גם לומר שירה שמא ח"ו יאמרו שזה עזר מעין סגולה, ולכן אמר שאין בו כח אף לומר שירה.."
So what kind of generation is ours?
I think I read something similar in a Zohar once. Not that surprising, considering Ramchal's sources.
To clarify דרש משה is by R. Moshe Feinstein.
Oh. Still probably not a coincidence.
Because they were totally negligent in their assessments of the risk. But I'm not interested in having conspiracy theorists in this forum.
When one has lived long enough, one gets more and more skeptical that world events are simple and can be boiled down to action A or item B caused world event C, whether spiritual or physical realms. It's more more complex than that and silly to think otherwise. E.G. this specific act of charity saved or will save a kid's life! ....... But the neighbor kid that then dies from cancer the next day? Hmm, well I don't know... Same with a war... We do our best but it is foolish to point to specific religious causations for success or failures. One who does so is kind of being a false prophet if you think about it IMHO.
Conspiracy theories are, ironically, an attempt to explain things in as simple a way as possible. (Usually "the Jews.")
It depends on the conspiracy: we now know that thousands of girls were abused in England, and there is one side who doesn't want to investigate.
That's not a conspiracy. It's an open crime on the one part and stupidity bordering on evil on the other, and it has been well-known to anyone who was interested for decades.
That's the point, IT IS a conspiracy according to the Labour party. The same way as saying something about the IDF is called a conspiracy here.
You never served, have no training in combat or intelligence, are actually lacking in intelligence and have more belief in conspiracies than RFK, better to stay silent and not give evidence of your foolishness
Are you saying that the IDF did a good job on Oct 7th?
Individuals, both soldiers and volunteers demonstrated heroism beyond anything we can imagine. Remember, Hamas' plan was to cut Israel in half, and within 3-4 days, the fighting moved out of Israel's territory.
The army leadership, unfortunately, was caught horribly unprepared
"was caught horribly unprepared".
That's the whole point, it wasn't caught unprepared, that is the whole goal of the leadership. It took them hours to react. That's not unpreparedness, that's premeditated. They don't believe in winning wars. That is why a very inferior army was able to do what they did.
When are you going to wake up and demand change?
"The Rosh Yeshiva quotes a lone aggadic teaching..."
Just pointing out, it's not a lone teaching. Yaakov's "preparation for war" (when Esav was approaching) that everybody likes to quote was nothing more than splitting the camp into two. And even that was not exactly what you think... but let's stick with the first point, he didn't exactly "prepare for war" even though that is what was said. There are more. But whatever.
The Torah does not describe Yaakov preparing for fighting. Eisav had hundreds of men, there wouldn't have been a point. In fact this further disproves the charedi approach, because if numbers don't matter, why didn't Yaakov prepare for actual fighting? After all, that's certainly what the Bnei Yisrael did in every situation.
Not in every situation. And even in the situations in which they did, many times they did so in ways that no natural army would (e.g., Gidon). You always ignore this. And when someone mentions it, you try to slither out of it.
So we have endless situations where the Bnie Yisrael actually physically fought, and a few cases of miracles. And you think that today we should follow the cases of miracles?
We should fight like a Jewish army. Start by sending away from the battle field every tamme keri, and also every soldier who has ANY aveyra (ast least as minor as talking between putting on hand and head tefillin let alone kfirah, chilul Shabbos, b'ilas nidah and other znus etc.). THAT is how the Torah says a Jewish army should fight.
Then see how many soldiers you have left.
(Of course, you'll come back with: "well then let the Charedim fight". But you'll be slithering away from the point, which is that the IDF is NOT a Jewish army.)
You didn't answer the question: "And you think that today we should follow the cases of miracles?". You changed the topic.
I think we should listen to the Chachmey HaTorah. And if they say this is not the time to fight (even if it is because we should now rely on a HaShem alone) then that is what we should do.
Interesting to note:
One Chacham that the "Torah uMada" camp uses as one of its poster-boys is R' Shamshon Rephael Hirsch. And here is something R' Hirsch says:
"... when, during the reign of Hadrian, the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for all times that Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its own power; it is to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine providence. Therefore ... the Sages ... added yet another blessing (the fourth blessing to the grace-after-meals) ... an acknowledgement that it has always been G-d and G-d alone Who has given us, and still gives us to this very day, that good in which we have cause to rejoice, and that for future good, too, we may look to non other but G-d, and none beside him."
Says R' S"R Hirsch, the reason that in the fourth blessing of every grace-after-meals, the miracle of the unburied bodies that didn't rot in Beitar is recalled and that we give thanks for being able to finally bury them all in the fourth bracha of bentching is to remind us that we should "never again attempt to restore its national independence by its own power".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the Rambam paskin that way? Implication from Hilchos Melachim 7:5-8 is that he doesn't.
Ironically, the case of Gidon seems to show the opposite of your point - if not for the explicit command to send away those who seemed to be accustomed to avoda zara, Gidon would otherwise have used thousands of soldiers who were clearly religiously suspect. Given that the command to use so few soldiers is an outlier in Tanach's record of Jewish wars, the implication is that sinful soldiers generally are used.
OK. I'll correct you.
1.
"... the implication is that sinful soldiers generally are used."
Not true. Gidon is not the place from which we learn that sinners are sent away. It even made its way from Chazal into Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 54:3), where it says that someone who speaks between "Yishtabach" and (the bracha of) "Yotzer (Or)" returns from the battle array. And that is not the only "small" avera about which this is said (another example: Sota 44b about speaking between putting on hand and head tfillin), kal vachomer that bigger averos will require one to leave the battle field.
2.
"does the Rambam paskin that way?"
Yes he does. In those halachos he is making qualifications about which of such cases are not exempt.
And don't forget about the tamey keri. You will probably lose almost the entire IDF to that one. Are you going to send all the girls to battle in their place (which is a different issur)?
3.
"the case of Gidon seems to show the opposite of your point - if not for the explicit command"
Gidon's is not an isolated case and others were not commanded by HaShem. Example: Chizkiyahu. Furthermore, the zionist camp loves to point at Tanach for a model for Jewish warfare today (which is the reason that I bring these examples). But the truth is that Yaakov Avinu and Chazal have taught us to behave differently in the time of galus (since the destruction of the FIRST Temple).
Also, Gidon asked the angel "וְאַיֵּה כָל נִפְלְאֹתָיו" "where are His wonders (i.e., miracles), i.e., where is HaShem's miraculous salvation. That was before HaShem commanded anything. But today they say, "We must do it by the might of our own hand" and some add "then HaShem will save us".
4.
"if not for the explicit command to send away those who seemed to be accustomed to avoda zara"
You are assuming that these people were still sinners who worship avoda zara. But they were not; they were accustomed to such bowing because they used to do avoda zara in the past, but they must have since done teshuva. How do we know? Because sinners are sent home frorm battle, as I will show in #5 below.
And even if they had not yet done teshuvah, Hashem told him how to sift out the idol worshippers as Gidon could not otherwise know who was and who was not an idol worshipper.
5.
"Given that the command to use so few soldiers is an outlier"
It is not a single outlier. See #2 above.
So then, following your logic, David HaMelech wasn't fighting like a Jew because he sinned. Is that correct?
Either you're an am haaretz (if you didn't know what I am about to write) or you are a leytz (if you did know what I'm about to write.
1. I did not make up that one who has sins is turned away from the battlefield.
2. There is nobody without sin as the pasuk (Koheles 7:20) says
אֵ֥ין צַדִּ֖יק בָּאָ֑רֶץ אֲשֶׁ֥ר יַֽעֲשֶׂה־טּ֖וֹב וְלֹ֥א יֶחֱטָֽא, "There is not a righteous person in the land that will do good and will not err/sin."
However, one who has sinned and does teshuva is cleaned of his sins and can go to battle.
Gidon received a prophecy. We received something greater that prophecy - a Torah obligation to engage in a מלחמת מצוה.
You're joking. Right?
I'm going to listen to YOU explaining what the Torah wants us to do in a given situations instead of listening to people far greater than you in Torah and Yiras Shomayim and who have spent their entire lives immersed in Torah?
So you're saying that you follow people who deny there's a Torah obligation to engage in a מלחמת מצוה?
How wise of you to resort to the "When did you stop beating your wife" strategy. If this is your strategy, you clearly don't have much to stand on.
There is no Chacham haTorah in the world that denies that there is a Torah obligation to engage in a milchemes mitzvah and you know it. And to imply it in such a way that it should be accepted under-the-radar by your comment's readers is dishonest. SHAME ON YOU.
The disagreement between you and the Chachmey Hatorah on this issue of milchemes mitzvah is not if there is such a Torah obligation but whether or not this is a milchemes mitzvah (as shown in the meeting between Rav Lando and the soldier named Erez).
So you found a distinction between Yaakov and us and therefore we can't learn anything from Yaakov. That's modernishe reform talk.
It's not the difference that should interest you, it's the צד השוה. He prepared for war, and so should we.
"was nothing more than splitting the camp into two."
But enough about Ponevezh.
Don't be obtuse. You and Slifkin and co. do this all the time.
You say, well that's just one example (in fact, Slifkin did that in this very article referencing a "lone aggadic teaching" which is not so lone). The implication being that if there were more, then I would have a point. Then when I bring more and more and more examples, and also Torah directives that show that this is how Jews are instructed to fight a battle, then you all stammer and slither and start to do gymnastics to try and get out of it.
When I show (with mareh mkomos) that the State of Israel and the IDF way is not the way Jews are supposed to act in galus, you refer to the Tanach. So then I show that what is in Tanach is also not the way the state and the IDF is acting, and then you say it's a lone source. And then I bring lot's of sources. And you slither out of it with your invented pshetlach that have no source and contradict Chazal's explanations.
But you won't hear any of this. It will all go right over your head. I'm writing this in case I can prevent someone else from being perverted by your rhetoric.
The only example you brought was the exception that proves the rule. The case of Gideon is exceptional.
You should really respect your readers more. Apparently you think they don't know much.
I've brought many examples in the comments section of many of your posts. You know that. If you want to ignore that, its your choice to be dishonest about it.
"Then when I bring more and more and more examples"
No. You brought more and more counter-examples.
You can say what you want. You've been dishonest in enough comments and responses to me
as for example here: https://open.substack.com/pub/rationalistjudaism/p/when-yeshivos-crushed-syria?r=2ce601&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=85966057
where I replied with this: https://open.substack.com/pub/rationalistjudaism/p/when-yeshivos-crushed-syria?r=2ce601&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=85980099
that I'm not even going to reply to this. they were good examples and you can misleadingly rename them whatever you want. In the article Slifkin even admitted to one which he called a "lone" example. But there are plenty of others which I have brought numerous times.
And in either case, since the destruction of the first Temple, we have never taken up arms without permission of the goyim unless it was to defend our right to keep the Torah. Another thing that you have not answered.
Except of course Bar Kochva. But to that we have R' S"R Hirsch to explain: "... when, during the reign of Hadrian, the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for all times that Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its own power; it is to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine providence."
" they were good examples"
I didn't say they weren't good. I said they were counter-examples. Meaning that you've presented them as having no bearing on the current situation.
While a religious Jew diligently fulfills all the commandments as prescribed by Jewish law, as found in texts such as the Shulchan Aruch and the Rambam, a Christian follows a different path, choosing to disregard Jewish law and instead adhere to the teachings of a prophet. On this divergence in approach "Rabbi Yoḥanan said: From the day that the Temple was destroyed, prophecy was taken from the prophets and given to imbeciles and children" (B. Bava Batra, 12 b).
What are you implying? Who in this discussion believes in prophecies of imbeciles?
Fourth, the downfall of Assad, while wonderful for the people he oppressed, is probably not such a positive development for Israel's security to begin with.
Not that all the rebel groups are good, but in the short and medium term it is a huge plus. The Russia Iran Syria Hezbollah Axis of Genocide has been severed. The influence of Russia and Iran in the region has been greatly diminished. The anti-Russia anti-Iran anti-Syria anti-Hezbollah candidate for President of Lebanon (supported by Biden and opposed by Trump) was just elected there. And given that the Assad regime was the single most murderous regime in the world today, propped up by the second worst, it is hard to imagine any of the rebel groups being worse. The Assad regime may have murdered more people than all Islamic terrorists put together.
"It is hard to imagine it being worse" sounds a bit like famous last words...
The definition of a Jewish optimist: "It couldn't get worse."
"it is hard to imagine any of the rebel groups being worse."
Normal people like you don't have that kind of imagination. But basically a pragmatic non-fanatic murderer has been replace by a pragmatic fanatic who hasn't started mass murdering yet. All honeymoons must come to an end.
It reminds me of the (fictional) words of Henry VIII: "Six wives, and the best of them's the worst."
I am well aware that Lenin was worse than Czar Nicholas, Stalin was worse than Lenin, and Mao worse than Chiang. But the group that overthrew Assad only controls about 1/4 of the country, is not supported by Iran, has no influence in Lebanon, and seems to want Russia out. All those are pluses.
I am reading Winston Churchill's six volume narrative of World War 2. Churchill realized on June 22, 1941, that he had to go all in to support Stalin.
Assad was more like Hitler and Stalin. He would have swallowed up Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, and Israel had he been able to -- and he would have had the support of Russia and Iran. It isn't possible to eliminate Iran but the end of the Assad regime has set it back decades in its hegemony and resulted in someone who might be reasonable leading Lebanon at least for a while.
"If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons."
"And given that the Assad regime was the single most murderous regime in the world today, propped up by the second worst, it is hard to imagine any of the rebel groups being worse."
Two big problems with this. Islamist regimes are quite oppressive to those who don't hew to the religion. Women's rights eliminated. You may simply end up trading one kind of oppression for another.
The bigger issue, is that Assad's Syria, like the regimes in Egypt and Jordan, really have no beef with Israel remaining as a sovereign country. Syria wanted the Golan back and maybe cared a little about the Palestinian cause and then got involved with Hezbollah to remain propped up. Israel would have been much better off if there had never been a Syrian civil war.
The new regime is Islamist which means that Israel's existence is something that should not be in their worldview. It is the difference between Morsi and el-Sisi. Morsi had more popular support, but as an Islamist, he was headed to greater and greater conflicts with Israel. el-Sisi is a strongman, but he is fundamentally reconciled to peace and co-existence with Israel.
"Assad's Syria, like the regimes in Egypt and Jordan, really have no beef with Israel remaining as a sovereign country. "
That is a false statement. The Assad regime has long believed in "Greater Syria". That means the current Syria, plus Lebanon, plus Jordan, plus Palestine, plus Israel. Hezbollah was Assad's vehicle for eventually swallowing up Lebanon. Hezbollah was until just weeks ago the most powerful political party in Lebanon and the main party in the government. No more.
Too many Israel supporters are blind to the fact that the issue isn't just Islam vs. Judaism.
Hezbollah was Assad's vehicle for remaining in power and he was Hezbollah and Iran's pawn because he needed them to stay in power. No civil war and Hezbollah would not have been in Syria like that at all. You are just wrong about this and about the Islamist threat. Also, you are conflating Islam the religion with Islamist movements like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and HTS almost certainly is. No doubt Islam itself is not in conflict with the existence of Israel. Just as Judaism is not inherently in conflict with Palestinian rights even though the current version of political Religious Zionism currently in power in Israel is.
I agree that the side effect of removing Assad was lessening Hezbollah and Iran (a different set of Islamist) influence in Syria.
"Just as Judaism is not inherently in conflict with Palestinian rights"
Of course it is. That you choose to neglect this basic fact of Judaism does not give you the right to "blame" it on icky right-wingers you dislike.
If Syria ends up aligned with turkey it's a disaster the US won't be able to help with
That's why you have "big weapons", in order that the enemy fears you. But if they know you fight soft no matter what, then it happens what it happens.
Houston, we have a problem. The statements made by this rabbi, claiming that yeshiva students are the ultimate winners who defeat terrorists and terror-sponsoring states, are rooted in the Talmud. While rabbinical Judaism, based on the Talmud and midrashim, differs significantly from the Mosaic religion, it emerged in the Diaspora and is filled with mystical beliefs, exaggerated claims, and simplistic proverbs often regarded as divine promises.
When reality contradicts the Talmud, especially in areas like medicine, the haredim prioritize reality, seeking out the best doctors and treatments. However, when reality aligns with the Talmud (as in the current war, where others fight for them), they attribute the IDF success to their Torah study.
Not only Hamas prior to Oct 7th, or arguably every terror attack led by small cells belonging to some of the murderous Iunatics around us.
I would add the following: in the pre-WW2 golden age of eastern European yeshivot, how come the cataclysm was avoided? We always talk about ירידת הדורות , but interestingly only the present generation of Charedi yeshivot in Israel have such mega super duper powers?
"Third, as even some in the yeshiva world realized with shock, there is a striking downplaying of God. It’s all about the “power” of learning Torah, with barely a mention of Hashem."
The helplessness bred by Kabbalistic "Torah super power" determinism is no better better the helplessness that results from scientific determinism.
@Weaver,
@Weaver
“helplessness that results from scientific determinism”
Scientific determinism has not resulted in any helplessness on my part nor has resulted In overwhelming incapacity of clear methodical scientific discipline. Indeed, scientific determinism hasn’t been too keen a scientific notion. So, what are you talking about?
Can you explain further? Even if physics is deterministic in principle, in practice, it is not because none of us are Laplace’s demon. And the Born rule means the future is not deterministic even in principle.
I meant mainly the scientific determinism (such as it is) of the science vs religion free-will debates. If scientific determinism bothers people, mystical Torah-power determinism is little better. Just the mechanism is different.
"a religious worldview which is illogical, foolish, anti-traditional, and veering on idolatry. "
Um, well, yes, their view might be more illogical and foolish that some other worldviews, but consider where you're starting from. If you start from a position of believing crazy things without any evidence and building these up into metaphysical truths that cannot be questioned, as pretty much every religious body of thought does, then you really can't be surprised that people end up with illogical and foolish ideas. That's exactly what they started with. If you want to say to them, "Listen, let's be rational, let's evaluate the evidence" you're going to have to take more than a few steps back, I'm afraid.