In addition, there are other activities Haredim who are not serving could do:
- when there is a funeral of a fallen soldier (and please G-d there will be no more such funerals), take a flag and stand with hundreds of other Israelis to mark the route of the funeral (it is not difficult to get a list of such funerals in your area)
- Volunteer for programs that support soldiers, eve things like Grill for IDF.
- Volunteer at other services like Zaka or MDA
- Visit Hostage square or Shiva homes of fallen soldiers, to listen to people there, and cry with them
- Encourage your shul/Yeshiva to include a Mishaberech for Soldiers and Hostages, if your shul isn't prepared to make even a symbolic move like this, switch to a different shul
In this time of terrible division in the country which is threatening the future of the State, we need to find more ways to understand and interact with each other.
Ha'Shomer He'Chadash has implemented a mainly Haredi program throughout the country for local Haredim to do basic civil guard duty and even volunteer with the police and join armed Kitot Konenut when qualified.
They could use a lot more volunteers even for the most basic tasks.
Seems like your idea of "we need to find more ways to understand and interact with each other" is a one way street. Chareidim need to change and conform and understand us but we need to do no such thing or make the slightest effort to understand Chareidim
So why would you be so horribly angry at the fact that they have no interest in understanding you? Everyone must listen to you? Nobody is allowed a different opinion? Interesting
I don't think we're angry at the charedim having no interest in understanding us. We're angry at the charedim having no interest in sharing responsibility.
Except you want them to accept a responsibility that comes with certain problems that are rather problematic for people with a Chareidi outlook. So you absolutely can boil it down to something you want Chareidim to understand so they will comply with your set of beliefs
OK. Well, I understand charedim better than they understand themselves, then. Or at least than many of them are willing to admit. We all know what's at issue here. But just because I understand doesn't mean they're correct.
Oh, let's stop beating around the bush. Get past the PR excuse of "we're defending you by learning" (which no charedi really cares about in the first place) and the patently ridiculous self-excuse of "anything other than learning is bittul torah" and the self-defeating excuse of "our boys are so weak in background that they won't stay religious" (actual subtext: "Or, worse, will stay religious but no longer vote for us), and you get to the real reason, which we all know: Charedim have never made peace with modern Zionism (or any Zionism, even ancient), and especially not its success. (That's why their spokesman casually, and ridiculously, claim it is a failure.) That's the issue. That's the *only* issue. (In fact, in a broader sense it's the issue for well-nigh *everything* that defines charedim: If it's not from "unzerer," it's treif.)
So best to ignore the State of Israel as much as possible, because its very existence raises questions that are far too disturbing to the charedi worldview and view of history. Ignoring its existence, of course, *definitely* means not putting on a uniform issued by it. Of course, every charedi carries at least a couple of documents in his wallet with the seal of the State of Israel on them, but at least there's no risk to life in that.
If you don't understand that about yourself, I can't help you.
There must be more interaction between Haredim and other segments of society specifically so that we can understand and appreciate one-another.
When I moved to Israel over 30 years ago, there were many mixed neighborhoods with significant Haredi and non-Haredi populations. Bayit Vegan, Har Nof, and even places like Geula and Bnei Brak all had significant non Haredi populations, and the communities interacted with each other on busses, in stores, and public parks, and as a result got to know one-another and understand each other's values.
Unfortunately today the vast majority of Haredim live in neighborhoods that are close to 100% Haredi, and as a result, most non-Haredi Israelis do not interact with Haredim on a regular basis, and are missing out on seeing the many things which makes the Haredi community so beautiful, things like Hachnasat Orchim, Chessed, and family values.
When you say "today they live in..." you're leaving out the not-insignificant point that this is because the non-charedim *moved out*. (Obviously places *founded* to be 100% charedi are different.) I can't think of an example of a once-mixed neighborhood that no longer is that went the other way.
I think that non-Haredim moved out of Bayti Vegan and Har Nof as they were feeling increasingly unwelcome, and slowly non-Haredi schools, kindergartens, and shuls were being shut down.
This is a 2 way street, I was very sorry to hear people in my non-Haredi neighborhood say that they would be very worried if Haredim moved in as it would change the nature of the neighborhood.
I think that we need to re-learn to live with one another, and I see very little desire in either the Haredi or non-Haredi community to do that.
Do you not believe that neighborhoods can change for the worse because a certain demographic moves in? This isn't just a charedi thing, at least when you look to other countries.
Non chareidim feel pushed out. That is what is happening in RBS A. It's getting harder and harder to live here if you are not chareidi. There are no new non chareidi schools being opened in RBS A and the existing ones are bursting at the seams. If someone doesn't have school options for their children, of course they are going to move.
RBS is a great example of non-Haredim being pushed out.
When we moved to Modiin almost 20 years ago when both RBS and Modiin were new cities, we had several "refugees" from RBS who had been pressured to leave, even people who initially moved to RBS as they were looking for a religious environment to raise their kids. There were even people who had knocks on the door and being told that the way they dressed was not appropriate for the neighborhood and they should leave.
Yes they could have stayed and fought for the future of the neighborhood, but why would you want to raise your kids in an environment like that where they are made to feel unwelcome, especially when there are so many other options with warm welcoming communities and excellent Torani educational opportunities.
Here's another suggestion. Make an appointment with your religious leaders - your local shul rabbi, rosh yeshiva, or gadol hador - and tell them honestly your dilemma. At least the leadership should gain a sense of how their constituents are struggling with this way of life.
A haredi relative of mine in his mid-50s, a veteran oleh who spent some years in kollel, recently enlisted in the IDF's shlav bet, the shorter program for older candidates. Most of the others in his basic training were haredi men in their 20s and 30s. Obviously, such personal integrity is exceptional, but that's the kind of man he is. At the end of basic training, he was chosen Outstading Soldier.
I am in israel now and met a Chareidi young man (black hat et Al) told me he was an ex Talmud of itri and was doing sheirut Leumi volunteering in different placement by the organization such as Zaka government service army support etc for two or three years. He told me many others were doing the same ignoring the gedolim quietly leaving the noise making to the batlanim. I was very taken with this young man and of it is true that there many others quietly following this path there may be hope. Has anyone one else experienced this phenomenon?
(A little humility is always called for. My father, knowing where he came from and how his contemporaries ended up, cites the original version of that when talking about being frum, period.)
The voting advice is a good idea, but alas I fear it won't have much practical effect. Shas voters- who serve and work!- will keep voting for Shas out of ethnic and superstitious reasons until Ben-Gvir pulls them away, hopefully soon. (And even if your gorge rises at the thought, you should be praying Ben-Gvir succeeds.) Also, for the record, Bayit Yehudi doesn't exist anymore.
The problem is that most of the alternatives range from the corrupt to the hollow to the stupid to the insane. (The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to you.) Hope for Bennett, I suppose.
"Davenning does have value in Judaism, but not as a replacement for service"
Maybe take a look at Psalm 20:8. You may be too busy looking at your phone or thinking of new ways to trash Gedolim during that time of the morning prayers to notice what the Passuk says.
"Even if your boys are not going to join the army, there is no reason why they should not spend their vacation time volunteering, such as on farms"
Right, because there is nothing which screams "sharing in the national responsibility" like volunteering on a farm...
"their efforts to avoid drafting and to drain the economy are wrong and dangerous"
What is wrong and dangerous, pray tell? You believe there is no inherent value in Torah learning, and it definitely is not a merit for soldiers on the field. They disagree. Of course, history is clearly on their side, since the mere fact that the mortality rate in Gaza is in the hundreds, and not thousands (as one would expect after entering a dangerous and booby-trapped zone which had the benefit of years of preparation for just such an occasion), can only be attributed to the zechus of the sheer amount of Torah learning in Israel. The army hasn't shown itself to be particularly infallible (October 7th anyone?), and the secular people who don't observe anything (at best, due to lack of an authentic Jewish education, and at worst, due to hostility) are not particularly deserving of such divine protection.
"No more donations to charedi institutions"
That ought to solve it, no? Got news for you. There are enough wealthy Chareidim or even non-Chareidim (like Sefardim in Deal etc.) who have enough appreciation and respect for Torah learning to cover whatever shortfall the few "Chareidim" who would be obtuse enough to listen to your 'ideas" would cause by stopping their support.
"Davenning does have value in Judaism, but not as a replacement for service"
"Maybe take a look at Psalm 20:8."
It's statements like this that call the entirety of charedi yeshiva learning into question. You seriously think that Eleh v'rechev is saying that Jews should davven INSTEAD of fighting? Have you thought about whether David HaMelech actually did that? Have you thought about what the passuk could mean? Have you looked at the mefarshim?
Not instead. Some fight physically and some don't but participate in other ways. Davening and learning are other ways to increase merit. I mean, you guys are the ones who composed the Mi Shebeirach for the Chayalim, not us. Why do you bother saying it if you don't believe in its value? Why was a Tefilla which begins with the words "Acheinu Kol Beis Yisroel" created?
In ancient times when they had a Milchemes Mitzvah, not everyone fought. There were prerequisites to join the fight, like one who was in Shana Rishona, one who was "Yarei V'Rach Halevav", etc. Do you think they didn't Daven for the success of the war? Do you think they evaded the "national responsibility"?
In general, why would you want Chareidim in the army anyway? Do you really expect one who doesn't believe in a cause to give it all he's got?
Right, so in classical Judaism, you davven, but it's always an accompaniment to hishtadlus, not a replacement. Just like when someone is sick. Are you claiming that the passuk says otherwise?
When I daven for a sick man living in a foreign country who I know virtually nothing about besides his name for Tehillim, or even for someone I do know but can't directly help (i.e. I am not a doctor), is that a form of Hishtadlus? I can't do anything for him anyway. So what is it? There is Hishtadlus being done on the patient's behalf by doctors etc. and I am Davening that their efforts should bear the results I wish for. What is the difference between that scenario and the current war?
So what bothers you more, Chareidim learning Torah or Chareidim not getting killed in Gaza?
I would just point out that you're posting your venomous hatred of Chareidim on a public forum INSTEAD of fighting in the IDF, so I wouldn't exactly call you someone who "shares in the national burden" either. The difference is that at least Chareidim are doing something productive with their lives, and are providing merit for soldiers during a war to boot. I can't say the same for you..
"he mere fact that the mortality rate in Gaza is in the hundreds, and not thousands... can only be attributed to the zechus of the sheer amount of Torah learning in Israel."
Right, there is no other possible explanation whatsoever! There is no material explanation, and there are no spiritual zechuyot in Israel other than the sheer number of charedim in yeshiva.
It does beg the question, though, of how we won in 48 and 67.
Honestly, don't you realize that with comments like this, you just expose the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the charedi worldview? Maybe deep down you do, and that's why you don't sign your name.
I actually wrote "Torah learning" not "Charedim in Yeshiva". It might surprise you that there are DL who also learn Torah. Torah by itself creates merit. 1948 and 1967 had less people learning (and fighting), so what?
But I'll concede the "Kochi V'Otzem Yodi" attitude has clearly overtaken you, and you seem to think the IDF is infallible, all wars won (you left out 1973) are due to their extraordinary might, and the fact Iran and other countries who wish to wipe Israel off the map never did so is because they are terrified of Israel which is, you know, stronger than all of them combined. So why do you need Chareidim in the IDF? You're not strong enough?
Again: why on earth are you so certain that it's the merit of Torah by charedim that has helped. Maybe it's the Torah of soldiers? Maybe it's other merits?
As for your comments about my beliefs in the.might of thr IDF, I have no idea where you pulled that from.
Chazal said Torah Magna Umatzla, so we know Torah is a merit. The more the merrier. What other merits can you think of? Chesed? Chesed organizations are almost exclusively run by Chareidim in Israel. Why don't you tell me which merits are sustaining the IDF? It's not like the secular (Zionist) elite are worthy of, or providing any, merit. So whose merit is sustaining the IDF if not the Chareidim you despise?
Your belief in the might of the IDF is pretty clear from your references to '48 and '67, as well as your critique of Rav Feldman's common sense rationale for the current situation in Israel. You can take a look at what you wrote.
How about the Torah of those who learn under adverse circumstances instead of the comfort of a Beis Midrash? How about the chessed of everyone involved in the army, which is a far greater chessed than anything in the charedi world?
"How about the Torah of those who learn under adverse circumstances instead of the comfort of a Beis Midrash?"
I think cutting off funding and potentially all subsidies to men whose only crime is learning Torah qualifies as adverse circumstances. But that's something you wholeheartedly endorse even if it can bring actual harm to another Jew.
"How about the chessed of everyone involved in the army, which is a far greater chessed than anything in the charedi world?"
You are basically admitting you don't know what Chesed is. The army is an entity which engages in self-defense, whether due to their being the instigators or the victims of an assault. That has nothing to do with Chesed. Zaka, Hatzalah, organizations which provide for needy people (obviously run by Chareidim - DL may participate in some of their actions but are not the leaders), etc. are engaging in Chesed.
You speak with such confidence. Secualrs have no merit? Where'd ya pull that from?! Btw if you look into the sugya it refers to saving the one learning not the whole country. Whats the point in that? Furthermore, that gemara also distinguishes between מוות and פורענות. Btw isnt it a bit odd the rambam dosent bring such a poshut halacha in his הלכות מלכים? You sound like an overenthusiastic baal tshuva who just learned to read. Calm down and realize that there are those who are no less learned than Rav Feldman who completely disagree and theres a much deeper Torah than Chazaq and Artscroll.
I'm not familiar with that position, though I'm not sure how Hesder Yeshivos without learning would help non-learning Chareidim not have to serve. In any case, I don't claim to speak for UTJ.
Because there is a shortage of combat soldiers, Hesder students had to leave Yeshiva and draft sooner. If even some Chareidim serve (maybe even the ones not learning), there wouldn't be such a shortage of combat soldiers.
"If even some Chareidim serve (maybe even the ones not learning), there wouldn't be such a shortage of combat soldiers"
What's Nachal Chareidi? Besides, are you certain that they only want to draft Chareidim into combat roles and not other roles like intelligence, etc.? Do you think that if there was a serious attempt by the army to accommodate Chareidim's needs, that more Chareidim wouldn't enlist?
Nachal Charedi is heavily made up on non-charedim. And it's quite small.
You seem to have completely missed the point about the hesder yeshivot.
And yes, the army could try all sorts of accommodations (random example: Did you know that all meat in the IDF is now glatt?) and they still wouldn't enlist.
Nachal chareidi is tiny. There are many not learning who dont serve. The army needs to be more accomodating but so do the chareidim. Ita not a one way street.
Huh? You mean volunteering on a farm is a form of "sharing in the national responsibility"? As in anyone who doesn't is somehow deficient in that field?
What's the national responsibility anyway? Economy? Any time a Chareidi purchases something in Israel, he's pumping money into the economy. Army service? There's a draft. Without a draft, how many other than DL whose Yiddishkeit consists of Zionism and some Torah sprinkled on would join? The secular Israelis have no connection to the land (which is why you see multitudes of secular Israelis running away as far from Israel as they can after they finish their army service), and Chareidim have serious issues with the religious environment (or lack of it) in the IDF. So what is the national responsibility?
It's a good catch phrase for Slifkin, as he valiantly tries to shake off whatever sparks of authentic Yiddishkeit his Chareidi days ingrained in him, but the reality is that his hatred of Gedolim and Chareidim is so embedded in his being that even if the Gedolim wouldn't utter a word and Chareidim would serve in the IDF, he would still find issues with them.
Generally, there is someone at home working. Kollel wives work, by and large, you know..and if not, there's someone giving them money. It's impossible for anyone to survive on mere subsidies from the government.
Please stay focused. You wrote, " Any time a Chareidi purchases something in Israel, he's pumping money into the economy". The claim implicit there is that Charedim are pumping money into the economy.
So I responded "cherry picking"- that you've chosen undue focus on one particular economic point, and not the others- such as subsidies and tax breaks etc.
Then I noted that the money that same Charedi uses to make such purchases has to come from somewhere. It comes partially from the gov't.
So don't tell me that Charedim are pumping money into the economy. It's not true once you stop cherry picking and consider all the facts.
Yet when chareidim are crushed to death in Meron, or stabbed in a Har Nof shul, or drown going to toivel in a dangerous lake, or great chareidi rabbonim murders by Nazis/Ukranians/Cossacs etc, you wouldn't dare to say that shows how wrong chareidim are, would you in believing their torah protects.
Duhh, Testes, you fool. We believe in the Torah which spells out very clearly that life often doesn't work out in the peaceful way that we hoped for, and that trahedirs are part of our life. Did anyone ever tell you differently?
Wow, three childish insults, one of them obscene, in the first four words. How *old* are you? And did you learn to write like that from your extensive Torah study?
I disagree that the articles presented until now have been unconstructive. They shed light on right versus wrong - literally אמת versus שקר.
Personally I have been convinced whenever and as much as possible to cease giving money to Haredi causes and to respectfully answer back when hearing the tripe some of my haredi family and neighbors, both Israeli and overseas-born, espouse on the subject.
Here's the text with minor grammatical tweaks incorporated:
The original poster is objectively correct. Unfortunately, this post is an outlier for Slifkin. It is low on charedi-bashing and provides mostly actual constructive ideas. The fact that you or, as Slifkin often puts it, "MANY" people have changed their minds because of his other posts has zero objective value. A statistician would need CPR after reading that anecdotal evidence from within a biased group is proof enough to determine that empirically hateful and divisive rhetoric is "helpful", in other words, a toeles.
I actually hope that this post can be a turning point for Slifkin to, as I've said many times before, vociferously air his position, which I mostly agree with, while doing so without the gratuitous hate-mongering (actually counter-productive) and simultaneously offering concrete ideas on how to practically bring people to understanding each other better and then, hopefully, action will follow.
In that spirit, I will push back on this post too, somewhat. It's a good one but still sees things a bit too one-sided. I would add back the Charedim's increasing of prayers, learning and mitzvos on behalf of success on the battlefield. With prayer, even Slifkin concedes that there are many sources for praying on behalf of others. And for learning and mitzvos, while doing so on behalf of a specific living person or group may not really exist in classic Torah sources, it definitely DOES exist on behalf of the community as a whole. In the past 2 weeks, the Torah itself references us realizing as a nation that all of our being in the Land and any success is determined by our good deeds and learning Torah. The gemara in Shabbos 119 also lists bad deeds that destroyed Jerusalem, and, in some cases, good deeds that helped sustain Jerusalem. Believing that the IDF is the main component of how we will win this battle is in direct opposition to Hashem's warning not to believe that our success is due to our own power and strength. So while the soldiers are engaged in the dangerous task of actual fighting, it seems shortsighted not to ask a segment of the population, who apparently aren't willing (yet) to contribute on the battlefield, to increase their Torah and mitzvos so as a nation we are deemed more worthy. I would, however, recommend that there be more accountability and formal institution of these good deeds on behalf of the soldiers. For example, each yeshiva can add another half-hour seder called "the soldier seder" to study mussar and such. I think the informal "we're learning or davening for the soldiers" without any noticeable difference in the daily routine definitely minimizes the Charedi claim that they are doing their part. The same can be said of chessed projects. Many more can be instituted in these communities that specifically benefit the soldiers and their families. (To note, many already have been put in place in the Anglo-Charedi communities and even some in Israeli-Charedi ones.)
How about everyone who is sitting in learning and healthy giving blood - on a regular basis ? One can do this every 3 months or so (at least that was the case in my time.) I did it in practice every 5 months when I was in yeshiva in Israel because we were not near any town. At the time there was a war on at the Canal.
It only takes about an hour assuming no queues and obviously it saves lives. Every town I imagine has a place where this can be done; often MDA. One word of caution - the first time after I did it I stood up immediately - and fainted. Your body needs time to adjust - especially the first time.
I think giving blood is a wonderful thing. Costs nothing and yet it saves lives. Unfortunately, I can no longer give blood. I was rejected the last 3 times I tried (I never seem to have enough iron in my body no matter what I do).
Once again thanks for your posts and opening these important discussions.
It is clear that these posts are a one way street, unfortunately there is no meaningful dialogue between the two factions, leading to progress.
You have highlighted the theological debate, the practical need and the pure injustice. In order to move forward, I think it would be necessary to hold the charadi leadership to account. Perhaps they should be invited to a debate with DL leaders about these issues, or if they will not attend, then maybe an open letter written to charedi leadership and dropped and distributed in charedi areas etc.
An easier prey would be the chutznik charadim, especially those tapped up to give to the most recent campaign of $107m. People who have parted with hard earned cash, will be more likely to want answers…
Change will not happen unless it is forced and that can only happen, when the people start to realise that their own leaders do not have robust reasonings for the status quo.
Please can we try to use this momentum for real change and not just an echo chamber. Your readers are all in agreement, so let’s galvanise everyone into action. Each reader of this blog should be armed with leaflets and knowledge to stand up to our charadi brethren and demand answers.
I'm away from home somewhere in the country. While leaving the local Shas-supportive Eidot Mizrach shul I davened in this morning, I noticed a single copy of a glossy paper pamphlet on the table, titled:
שימני כחותם (מהדורה שניה מורחבת)
שאלות ותשובות בענין הכלא הצבאי, ודרכי ההתמודדות המעשיים מול המצב החמור
At first I thought it was addressed to soldiers being harassed by the left progressive office of the military prosecutor and her underlings (here I think Rabbi Slifkin needs to speak to people in the know about what's actually going on). Then I flipped over to the back cover where it reads that this was produced by:
Hi Pepe, I suspect that Rav Slifkin's biggest concern is those of us living in Israel, as citizens and participants in the society. As such, there is a huge amount of awareness that we experience day in, day out, that we are all in this war situation together, and every single person in Israel is affected directly. And then, we observe a tendency that some people choose to help the war effort only with symbolic gestures or metaphorical statements such as "I'm davenning for the soldiers and saying Tehillim [but doing absolutely nothing else]." Nobody actually says that last bit, but that's clear in the way the first part is said.
Hi Michael,thank you ,I understand what you saying !!!
Is it that we (at least me)are very confused about the subject here And what can we argue when speaking from a religious perspective? With other charedi and make them understand
As a religious Jew myself, what does my ethics and morals say about this subject?
In this war no just for glory and land but of good against evil
We ,the Jewish people, and not just in Israel but outside as well are fighting and we are more distanced than ever
As rabbi sacks ones said “Jewish unity exists as an idea.why then should it not exist as a fact”
In addition, there are other activities Haredim who are not serving could do:
- when there is a funeral of a fallen soldier (and please G-d there will be no more such funerals), take a flag and stand with hundreds of other Israelis to mark the route of the funeral (it is not difficult to get a list of such funerals in your area)
- Volunteer for programs that support soldiers, eve things like Grill for IDF.
- Volunteer at other services like Zaka or MDA
- Visit Hostage square or Shiva homes of fallen soldiers, to listen to people there, and cry with them
- Encourage your shul/Yeshiva to include a Mishaberech for Soldiers and Hostages, if your shul isn't prepared to make even a symbolic move like this, switch to a different shul
In this time of terrible division in the country which is threatening the future of the State, we need to find more ways to understand and interact with each other.
Ha'Shomer He'Chadash has implemented a mainly Haredi program throughout the country for local Haredim to do basic civil guard duty and even volunteer with the police and join armed Kitot Konenut when qualified.
They could use a lot more volunteers even for the most basic tasks.
Seems like your idea of "we need to find more ways to understand and interact with each other" is a one way street. Chareidim need to change and conform and understand us but we need to do no such thing or make the slightest effort to understand Chareidim
Nobody mentioned understanding. We're talking about actions.
Exactly. I really don't care *why* they want to do anything, nor do I particularly care if they "understand" me, like me, or approve of me.
So why would you be so horribly angry at the fact that they have no interest in understanding you? Everyone must listen to you? Nobody is allowed a different opinion? Interesting
I don't think we're angry at the charedim having no interest in understanding us. We're angry at the charedim having no interest in sharing responsibility.
Except you want them to accept a responsibility that comes with certain problems that are rather problematic for people with a Chareidi outlook. So you absolutely can boil it down to something you want Chareidim to understand so they will comply with your set of beliefs
He litteraly just write understanding each other
OK. Well, I understand charedim better than they understand themselves, then. Or at least than many of them are willing to admit. We all know what's at issue here. But just because I understand doesn't mean they're correct.
Really?!?! Wow that's amazing. Please pray tell what is it that you understand so much better about myself than I do? Would truly like to know!
Oh, let's stop beating around the bush. Get past the PR excuse of "we're defending you by learning" (which no charedi really cares about in the first place) and the patently ridiculous self-excuse of "anything other than learning is bittul torah" and the self-defeating excuse of "our boys are so weak in background that they won't stay religious" (actual subtext: "Or, worse, will stay religious but no longer vote for us), and you get to the real reason, which we all know: Charedim have never made peace with modern Zionism (or any Zionism, even ancient), and especially not its success. (That's why their spokesman casually, and ridiculously, claim it is a failure.) That's the issue. That's the *only* issue. (In fact, in a broader sense it's the issue for well-nigh *everything* that defines charedim: If it's not from "unzerer," it's treif.)
So best to ignore the State of Israel as much as possible, because its very existence raises questions that are far too disturbing to the charedi worldview and view of history. Ignoring its existence, of course, *definitely* means not putting on a uniform issued by it. Of course, every charedi carries at least a couple of documents in his wallet with the seal of the State of Israel on them, but at least there's no risk to life in that.
If you don't understand that about yourself, I can't help you.
No - I think that it must be a 2-way street
There must be more interaction between Haredim and other segments of society specifically so that we can understand and appreciate one-another.
When I moved to Israel over 30 years ago, there were many mixed neighborhoods with significant Haredi and non-Haredi populations. Bayit Vegan, Har Nof, and even places like Geula and Bnei Brak all had significant non Haredi populations, and the communities interacted with each other on busses, in stores, and public parks, and as a result got to know one-another and understand each other's values.
Unfortunately today the vast majority of Haredim live in neighborhoods that are close to 100% Haredi, and as a result, most non-Haredi Israelis do not interact with Haredim on a regular basis, and are missing out on seeing the many things which makes the Haredi community so beautiful, things like Hachnasat Orchim, Chessed, and family values.
When you say "today they live in..." you're leaving out the not-insignificant point that this is because the non-charedim *moved out*. (Obviously places *founded* to be 100% charedi are different.) I can't think of an example of a once-mixed neighborhood that no longer is that went the other way.
Why would they have moved out?
I think that non-Haredim moved out of Bayti Vegan and Har Nof as they were feeling increasingly unwelcome, and slowly non-Haredi schools, kindergartens, and shuls were being shut down.
This is a 2 way street, I was very sorry to hear people in my non-Haredi neighborhood say that they would be very worried if Haredim moved in as it would change the nature of the neighborhood.
I think that we need to re-learn to live with one another, and I see very little desire in either the Haredi or non-Haredi community to do that.
Do you not believe that neighborhoods can change for the worse because a certain demographic moves in? This isn't just a charedi thing, at least when you look to other countries.
Non chareidim feel pushed out. That is what is happening in RBS A. It's getting harder and harder to live here if you are not chareidi. There are no new non chareidi schools being opened in RBS A and the existing ones are bursting at the seams. If someone doesn't have school options for their children, of course they are going to move.
RBS is a great example of non-Haredim being pushed out.
When we moved to Modiin almost 20 years ago when both RBS and Modiin were new cities, we had several "refugees" from RBS who had been pressured to leave, even people who initially moved to RBS as they were looking for a religious environment to raise their kids. There were even people who had knocks on the door and being told that the way they dressed was not appropriate for the neighborhood and they should leave.
Yes they could have stayed and fought for the future of the neighborhood, but why would you want to raise your kids in an environment like that where they are made to feel unwelcome, especially when there are so many other options with warm welcoming communities and excellent Torani educational opportunities.
This was RBS א?
Gotta just dig in you heels.
When the iriya wants to send your child to the other side of the city for school, there's no digging in your heels.
Here's another suggestion. Make an appointment with your religious leaders - your local shul rabbi, rosh yeshiva, or gadol hador - and tell them honestly your dilemma. At least the leadership should gain a sense of how their constituents are struggling with this way of life.
A haredi relative of mine in his mid-50s, a veteran oleh who spent some years in kollel, recently enlisted in the IDF's shlav bet, the shorter program for older candidates. Most of the others in his basic training were haredi men in their 20s and 30s. Obviously, such personal integrity is exceptional, but that's the kind of man he is. At the end of basic training, he was chosen Outstading Soldier.
I am in israel now and met a Chareidi young man (black hat et Al) told me he was an ex Talmud of itri and was doing sheirut Leumi volunteering in different placement by the organization such as Zaka government service army support etc for two or three years. He told me many others were doing the same ignoring the gedolim quietly leaving the noise making to the batlanim. I was very taken with this young man and of it is true that there many others quietly following this path there may be hope. Has anyone one else experienced this phenomenon?
"There but for the grace of the Gedolim"- ha!
(A little humility is always called for. My father, knowing where he came from and how his contemporaries ended up, cites the original version of that when talking about being frum, period.)
The voting advice is a good idea, but alas I fear it won't have much practical effect. Shas voters- who serve and work!- will keep voting for Shas out of ethnic and superstitious reasons until Ben-Gvir pulls them away, hopefully soon. (And even if your gorge rises at the thought, you should be praying Ben-Gvir succeeds.) Also, for the record, Bayit Yehudi doesn't exist anymore.
The problem is that most of the alternatives range from the corrupt to the hollow to the stupid to the insane. (The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to you.) Hope for Bennett, I suppose.
"Hope for Bennett, I suppose."
And Mansour Abbas. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/an-underappreciated-wonder Maybe Ahmed Tibi will come along this time too...
I didn't see the Arabs worth mentioning. That you do says a lot about you, none of it good.
Bennet did.
We're talking about voting here. Bennett obviously didn't vote for Abbas.
(Dr Tibi can become health minister.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0_zWPKokzM )
"Davenning does have value in Judaism, but not as a replacement for service"
Maybe take a look at Psalm 20:8. You may be too busy looking at your phone or thinking of new ways to trash Gedolim during that time of the morning prayers to notice what the Passuk says.
"Even if your boys are not going to join the army, there is no reason why they should not spend their vacation time volunteering, such as on farms"
Right, because there is nothing which screams "sharing in the national responsibility" like volunteering on a farm...
"their efforts to avoid drafting and to drain the economy are wrong and dangerous"
What is wrong and dangerous, pray tell? You believe there is no inherent value in Torah learning, and it definitely is not a merit for soldiers on the field. They disagree. Of course, history is clearly on their side, since the mere fact that the mortality rate in Gaza is in the hundreds, and not thousands (as one would expect after entering a dangerous and booby-trapped zone which had the benefit of years of preparation for just such an occasion), can only be attributed to the zechus of the sheer amount of Torah learning in Israel. The army hasn't shown itself to be particularly infallible (October 7th anyone?), and the secular people who don't observe anything (at best, due to lack of an authentic Jewish education, and at worst, due to hostility) are not particularly deserving of such divine protection.
"No more donations to charedi institutions"
That ought to solve it, no? Got news for you. There are enough wealthy Chareidim or even non-Chareidim (like Sefardim in Deal etc.) who have enough appreciation and respect for Torah learning to cover whatever shortfall the few "Chareidim" who would be obtuse enough to listen to your 'ideas" would cause by stopping their support.
"Davenning does have value in Judaism, but not as a replacement for service"
"Maybe take a look at Psalm 20:8."
It's statements like this that call the entirety of charedi yeshiva learning into question. You seriously think that Eleh v'rechev is saying that Jews should davven INSTEAD of fighting? Have you thought about whether David HaMelech actually did that? Have you thought about what the passuk could mean? Have you looked at the mefarshim?
Not instead. Some fight physically and some don't but participate in other ways. Davening and learning are other ways to increase merit. I mean, you guys are the ones who composed the Mi Shebeirach for the Chayalim, not us. Why do you bother saying it if you don't believe in its value? Why was a Tefilla which begins with the words "Acheinu Kol Beis Yisroel" created?
In ancient times when they had a Milchemes Mitzvah, not everyone fought. There were prerequisites to join the fight, like one who was in Shana Rishona, one who was "Yarei V'Rach Halevav", etc. Do you think they didn't Daven for the success of the war? Do you think they evaded the "national responsibility"?
In general, why would you want Chareidim in the army anyway? Do you really expect one who doesn't believe in a cause to give it all he's got?
Right, so in classical Judaism, you davven, but it's always an accompaniment to hishtadlus, not a replacement. Just like when someone is sick. Are you claiming that the passuk says otherwise?
Just show the guy הלכות מלכים.
When I daven for a sick man living in a foreign country who I know virtually nothing about besides his name for Tehillim, or even for someone I do know but can't directly help (i.e. I am not a doctor), is that a form of Hishtadlus? I can't do anything for him anyway. So what is it? There is Hishtadlus being done on the patient's behalf by doctors etc. and I am Davening that their efforts should bear the results I wish for. What is the difference between that scenario and the current war?
The difference is that in the current war, the potential "doctors" are learning INSTEAD of being doctors!
So what bothers you more, Chareidim learning Torah or Chareidim not getting killed in Gaza?
I would just point out that you're posting your venomous hatred of Chareidim on a public forum INSTEAD of fighting in the IDF, so I wouldn't exactly call you someone who "shares in the national burden" either. The difference is that at least Chareidim are doing something productive with their lives, and are providing merit for soldiers during a war to boot. I can't say the same for you..
What does מלחמת מצווה have to do with ancient times?
Btw when theyd ask מי האיש.. thats מלחמת רשות.
"he mere fact that the mortality rate in Gaza is in the hundreds, and not thousands... can only be attributed to the zechus of the sheer amount of Torah learning in Israel."
Right, there is no other possible explanation whatsoever! There is no material explanation, and there are no spiritual zechuyot in Israel other than the sheer number of charedim in yeshiva.
It does beg the question, though, of how we won in 48 and 67.
Honestly, don't you realize that with comments like this, you just expose the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the charedi worldview? Maybe deep down you do, and that's why you don't sign your name.
I actually wrote "Torah learning" not "Charedim in Yeshiva". It might surprise you that there are DL who also learn Torah. Torah by itself creates merit. 1948 and 1967 had less people learning (and fighting), so what?
But I'll concede the "Kochi V'Otzem Yodi" attitude has clearly overtaken you, and you seem to think the IDF is infallible, all wars won (you left out 1973) are due to their extraordinary might, and the fact Iran and other countries who wish to wipe Israel off the map never did so is because they are terrified of Israel which is, you know, stronger than all of them combined. So why do you need Chareidim in the IDF? You're not strong enough?
Again: why on earth are you so certain that it's the merit of Torah by charedim that has helped. Maybe it's the Torah of soldiers? Maybe it's other merits?
As for your comments about my beliefs in the.might of thr IDF, I have no idea where you pulled that from.
Chazal said Torah Magna Umatzla, so we know Torah is a merit. The more the merrier. What other merits can you think of? Chesed? Chesed organizations are almost exclusively run by Chareidim in Israel. Why don't you tell me which merits are sustaining the IDF? It's not like the secular (Zionist) elite are worthy of, or providing any, merit. So whose merit is sustaining the IDF if not the Chareidim you despise?
Your belief in the might of the IDF is pretty clear from your references to '48 and '67, as well as your critique of Rav Feldman's common sense rationale for the current situation in Israel. You can take a look at what you wrote.
Have you ever actually looked up Torah Magna Umatzla and seen what it is referring to?
How about the merit of people being moser nefesh to protect the Jewish People? Ever heard of Papus and Lulianus?
I noticed you've had time to respond to the other comments, but you haven't responded to this.
How about the Torah of those who learn under adverse circumstances instead of the comfort of a Beis Midrash? How about the chessed of everyone involved in the army, which is a far greater chessed than anything in the charedi world?
"How about the Torah of those who learn under adverse circumstances instead of the comfort of a Beis Midrash?"
I think cutting off funding and potentially all subsidies to men whose only crime is learning Torah qualifies as adverse circumstances. But that's something you wholeheartedly endorse even if it can bring actual harm to another Jew.
"How about the chessed of everyone involved in the army, which is a far greater chessed than anything in the charedi world?"
You are basically admitting you don't know what Chesed is. The army is an entity which engages in self-defense, whether due to their being the instigators or the victims of an assault. That has nothing to do with Chesed. Zaka, Hatzalah, organizations which provide for needy people (obviously run by Chareidim - DL may participate in some of their actions but are not the leaders), etc. are engaging in Chesed.
You speak with such confidence. Secualrs have no merit? Where'd ya pull that from?! Btw if you look into the sugya it refers to saving the one learning not the whole country. Whats the point in that? Furthermore, that gemara also distinguishes between מוות and פורענות. Btw isnt it a bit odd the rambam dosent bring such a poshut halacha in his הלכות מלכים? You sound like an overenthusiastic baal tshuva who just learned to read. Calm down and realize that there are those who are no less learned than Rav Feldman who completely disagree and theres a much deeper Torah than Chazaq and Artscroll.
"Chazal said Torah Magna Umatzla,"
You forgot the rest of the sugyoh. Not when schechiach hezeikoh.
He doesn't care about the sugya, just about the soundbite.
" You believe there is no inherent value in Torah learning"
Neither does UTJ, as they insist that Torah learning in Hesder should be stopped in order that non-learning Charedim won't have to serve.
Wow, Ephraim, good point!!!
I'm not familiar with that position, though I'm not sure how Hesder Yeshivos without learning would help non-learning Chareidim not have to serve. In any case, I don't claim to speak for UTJ.
Because there is a shortage of combat soldiers, Hesder students had to leave Yeshiva and draft sooner. If even some Chareidim serve (maybe even the ones not learning), there wouldn't be such a shortage of combat soldiers.
"If even some Chareidim serve (maybe even the ones not learning), there wouldn't be such a shortage of combat soldiers"
What's Nachal Chareidi? Besides, are you certain that they only want to draft Chareidim into combat roles and not other roles like intelligence, etc.? Do you think that if there was a serious attempt by the army to accommodate Chareidim's needs, that more Chareidim wouldn't enlist?
Nachal Charedi is heavily made up on non-charedim. And it's quite small.
You seem to have completely missed the point about the hesder yeshivot.
And yes, the army could try all sorts of accommodations (random example: Did you know that all meat in the IDF is now glatt?) and they still wouldn't enlist.
Nachal chareidi is tiny. There are many not learning who dont serve. The army needs to be more accomodating but so do the chareidim. Ita not a one way street.
", can only be attributed to the zechus of the sheer amount of Torah learning in Israel"
Again with the כוחי ועוצם ידי!
Do you know where food comes from?
Huh? You mean volunteering on a farm is a form of "sharing in the national responsibility"? As in anyone who doesn't is somehow deficient in that field?
What's the national responsibility anyway? Economy? Any time a Chareidi purchases something in Israel, he's pumping money into the economy. Army service? There's a draft. Without a draft, how many other than DL whose Yiddishkeit consists of Zionism and some Torah sprinkled on would join? The secular Israelis have no connection to the land (which is why you see multitudes of secular Israelis running away as far from Israel as they can after they finish their army service), and Chareidim have serious issues with the religious environment (or lack of it) in the IDF. So what is the national responsibility?
It's a good catch phrase for Slifkin, as he valiantly tries to shake off whatever sparks of authentic Yiddishkeit his Chareidi days ingrained in him, but the reality is that his hatred of Gedolim and Chareidim is so embedded in his being that even if the Gedolim wouldn't utter a word and Chareidim would serve in the IDF, he would still find issues with them.
"Any time a Chareidi purchases something in Israel, he's pumping money into the economy."
Cherry picking.
And where do you think the money comes from?
Generally, there is someone at home working. Kollel wives work, by and large, you know..and if not, there's someone giving them money. It's impossible for anyone to survive on mere subsidies from the government.
Please stay focused. You wrote, " Any time a Chareidi purchases something in Israel, he's pumping money into the economy". The claim implicit there is that Charedim are pumping money into the economy.
So I responded "cherry picking"- that you've chosen undue focus on one particular economic point, and not the others- such as subsidies and tax breaks etc.
Then I noted that the money that same Charedi uses to make such purchases has to come from somewhere. It comes partially from the gov't.
So don't tell me that Charedim are pumping money into the economy. It's not true once you stop cherry picking and consider all the facts.
Yes, food comes from farms. Congratulations, you know that.
Ofc not. If they didnt utter a word and not humiliate him hed still be chareidi.
Some torah sprinkled on? I suggest you listen to a shiur klali from rav yonaton rozin. Its a bit humbling.
Yet when chareidim are crushed to death in Meron, or stabbed in a Har Nof shul, or drown going to toivel in a dangerous lake, or great chareidi rabbonim murders by Nazis/Ukranians/Cossacs etc, you wouldn't dare to say that shows how wrong chareidim are, would you in believing their torah protects.
Duhh, Testes, you fool. We believe in the Torah which spells out very clearly that life often doesn't work out in the peaceful way that we hoped for, and that trahedirs are part of our life. Did anyone ever tell you differently?
Wow, three childish insults, one of them obscene, in the first four words. How *old* are you? And did you learn to write like that from your extensive Torah study?
They keep telling me torah protects. Does it or doesn't it?
Like this post because instead of the non constructive and daily bashing, here the bashing is tempered by compassion and some constructive suggestions
I disagree that the articles presented until now have been unconstructive. They shed light on right versus wrong - literally אמת versus שקר.
Personally I have been convinced whenever and as much as possible to cease giving money to Haredi causes and to respectfully answer back when hearing the tripe some of my haredi family and neighbors, both Israeli and overseas-born, espouse on the subject.
(Edited for grammatical corrections.)
Here's the text with minor grammatical tweaks incorporated:
The original poster is objectively correct. Unfortunately, this post is an outlier for Slifkin. It is low on charedi-bashing and provides mostly actual constructive ideas. The fact that you or, as Slifkin often puts it, "MANY" people have changed their minds because of his other posts has zero objective value. A statistician would need CPR after reading that anecdotal evidence from within a biased group is proof enough to determine that empirically hateful and divisive rhetoric is "helpful", in other words, a toeles.
I actually hope that this post can be a turning point for Slifkin to, as I've said many times before, vociferously air his position, which I mostly agree with, while doing so without the gratuitous hate-mongering (actually counter-productive) and simultaneously offering concrete ideas on how to practically bring people to understanding each other better and then, hopefully, action will follow.
In that spirit, I will push back on this post too, somewhat. It's a good one but still sees things a bit too one-sided. I would add back the Charedim's increasing of prayers, learning and mitzvos on behalf of success on the battlefield. With prayer, even Slifkin concedes that there are many sources for praying on behalf of others. And for learning and mitzvos, while doing so on behalf of a specific living person or group may not really exist in classic Torah sources, it definitely DOES exist on behalf of the community as a whole. In the past 2 weeks, the Torah itself references us realizing as a nation that all of our being in the Land and any success is determined by our good deeds and learning Torah. The gemara in Shabbos 119 also lists bad deeds that destroyed Jerusalem, and, in some cases, good deeds that helped sustain Jerusalem. Believing that the IDF is the main component of how we will win this battle is in direct opposition to Hashem's warning not to believe that our success is due to our own power and strength. So while the soldiers are engaged in the dangerous task of actual fighting, it seems shortsighted not to ask a segment of the population, who apparently aren't willing (yet) to contribute on the battlefield, to increase their Torah and mitzvos so as a nation we are deemed more worthy. I would, however, recommend that there be more accountability and formal institution of these good deeds on behalf of the soldiers. For example, each yeshiva can add another half-hour seder called "the soldier seder" to study mussar and such. I think the informal "we're learning or davening for the soldiers" without any noticeable difference in the daily routine definitely minimizes the Charedi claim that they are doing their part. The same can be said of chessed projects. Many more can be instituted in these communities that specifically benefit the soldiers and their families. (To note, many already have been put in place in the Anglo-Charedi communities and even some in Israeli-Charedi ones.)
How about everyone who is sitting in learning and healthy giving blood - on a regular basis ? One can do this every 3 months or so (at least that was the case in my time.) I did it in practice every 5 months when I was in yeshiva in Israel because we were not near any town. At the time there was a war on at the Canal.
It only takes about an hour assuming no queues and obviously it saves lives. Every town I imagine has a place where this can be done; often MDA. One word of caution - the first time after I did it I stood up immediately - and fainted. Your body needs time to adjust - especially the first time.
I think giving blood is a wonderful thing. Costs nothing and yet it saves lives. Unfortunately, I can no longer give blood. I was rejected the last 3 times I tried (I never seem to have enough iron in my body no matter what I do).
If you cannot do it you cannot do it. No reason to feel bad at all. I am now to old to give - not my fault - I blame the passage of time.
Once again thanks for your posts and opening these important discussions.
It is clear that these posts are a one way street, unfortunately there is no meaningful dialogue between the two factions, leading to progress.
You have highlighted the theological debate, the practical need and the pure injustice. In order to move forward, I think it would be necessary to hold the charadi leadership to account. Perhaps they should be invited to a debate with DL leaders about these issues, or if they will not attend, then maybe an open letter written to charedi leadership and dropped and distributed in charedi areas etc.
An easier prey would be the chutznik charadim, especially those tapped up to give to the most recent campaign of $107m. People who have parted with hard earned cash, will be more likely to want answers…
Change will not happen unless it is forced and that can only happen, when the people start to realise that their own leaders do not have robust reasonings for the status quo.
Please can we try to use this momentum for real change and not just an echo chamber. Your readers are all in agreement, so let’s galvanise everyone into action. Each reader of this blog should be armed with leaflets and knowledge to stand up to our charadi brethren and demand answers.
Good luck
You believe that figure, I have a bridge to sell you. It's all in the marketing.
Don't forget Kahn Academy to help fill in those gaps in secular education children might need when leaving charedi school
I'm away from home somewhere in the country. While leaving the local Shas-supportive Eidot Mizrach shul I davened in this morning, I noticed a single copy of a glossy paper pamphlet on the table, titled:
שימני כחותם (מהדורה שניה מורחבת)
שאלות ותשובות בענין הכלא הצבאי, ודרכי ההתמודדות המעשיים מול המצב החמור
At first I thought it was addressed to soldiers being harassed by the left progressive office of the military prosecutor and her underlings (here I think Rabbi Slifkin needs to speak to people in the know about what's actually going on). Then I flipped over to the back cover where it reads that this was produced by:
ועד ההסברה כנגד גזירת הגיוס
בהכוונת גדולי התורה שליט"א
The pamphlet is about 20 pages long.
Hi Rabbi I love the way you write and your posts (I’ve read every single post) and agreed in most of them
And I’m sorry if it sounds disrespectful…
It’s easy for me to write you in my home (Mexico)far from war and even more far to understand the situation with IDF and Charedi world
It’s sad how the situation it’s going regarding the IDF GOD BLESS THEM
But I clearly don’t understand your position regrading tefilah and the Torah study as well
I understand is not the way you tell dati leumi how the charedi world is helping with it but to tell there is nothing on it is a mistake
(My position is not to challenge you but rather to understand how do you see tefilah and Torah and what role does it play in this war?)
And how stopping to support the yeshivah is helping to this matter
We need both and they have to agree to go to IDF as well but the point you propose here doesn’t help for it
Again I’m Sorry I just want to hear what do you think on this matters
Hi Pepe, I suspect that Rav Slifkin's biggest concern is those of us living in Israel, as citizens and participants in the society. As such, there is a huge amount of awareness that we experience day in, day out, that we are all in this war situation together, and every single person in Israel is affected directly. And then, we observe a tendency that some people choose to help the war effort only with symbolic gestures or metaphorical statements such as "I'm davenning for the soldiers and saying Tehillim [but doing absolutely nothing else]." Nobody actually says that last bit, but that's clear in the way the first part is said.
Hi Michael,thank you ,I understand what you saying !!!
Is it that we (at least me)are very confused about the subject here And what can we argue when speaking from a religious perspective? With other charedi and make them understand
As a religious Jew myself, what does my ethics and morals say about this subject?
In this war no just for glory and land but of good against evil
We ,the Jewish people, and not just in Israel but outside as well are fighting and we are more distanced than ever
As rabbi sacks ones said “Jewish unity exists as an idea.why then should it not exist as a fact”
If you don't vote for Likkud or Religious Zionism who do you propose to vote for, Swifkin?
Otzma Yehudit, the only right-wing anti-charedi party. :-) The charedim hate them too.
Well, Lieberman too, but he's pretty corrupt and not-so-secretly in league with Shas.
The rest of them range from blank slate tools to stupidly inane to lunatic to terrorist. I trust I don't have to tell you who's who.
Absent all that, you're left with hopes for Bennett and./or Sa'ar.
" but he's pretty corrupt and not-so-secretly in league with Shas.
The rest of them range from blank slate tools to stupidly inane to lunatic to terrorist. I trust I don't have to tell you who's who."
But enough about Deri.
"Well, Lieberman too, but he's pretty corrupt and not-so-secretly in league with Shas."
Can you expand on this please?
Please elaborate further.
I just have to make the sociological point that the way the Rashi script is written lets you know the demographic of the artist.
Likud isn't a charedi-enabler??
I think he said it *is*.
Oh, definitely. Like with a drug pusher, the first dose is free.