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Michael Sedley's avatar

In addition, there are other activities Haredim who are not serving could do:

- when there is a funeral of a fallen soldier (and please G-d there will be no more such funerals), take a flag and stand with hundreds of other Israelis to mark the route of the funeral (it is not difficult to get a list of such funerals in your area)

- Volunteer for programs that support soldiers, eve things like Grill for IDF.

- Volunteer at other services like Zaka or MDA

- Visit Hostage square or Shiva homes of fallen soldiers, to listen to people there, and cry with them

- Encourage your shul/Yeshiva to include a Mishaberech for Soldiers and Hostages, if your shul isn't prepared to make even a symbolic move like this, switch to a different shul

In this time of terrible division in the country which is threatening the future of the State, we need to find more ways to understand and interact with each other.

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Shy Guy's avatar

Ha'Shomer He'Chadash has implemented a mainly Haredi program throughout the country for local Haredim to do basic civil guard duty and even volunteer with the police and join armed Kitot Konenut when qualified.

They could use a lot more volunteers even for the most basic tasks.

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Dov Kagan's avatar

Seems like your idea of "we need to find more ways to understand and interact with each other" is a one way street. Chareidim need to change and conform and understand us but we need to do no such thing or make the slightest effort to understand Chareidim

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Nachum's avatar

Nobody mentioned understanding. We're talking about actions.

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Chana Siegel's avatar

Exactly. I really don't care *why* they want to do anything, nor do I particularly care if they "understand" me, like me, or approve of me.

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Dov Kagan's avatar

So why would you be so horribly angry at the fact that they have no interest in understanding you? Everyone must listen to you? Nobody is allowed a different opinion? Interesting

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Natan Slifkin's avatar

I don't think we're angry at the charedim having no interest in understanding us. We're angry at the charedim having no interest in sharing responsibility.

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Dov Kagan's avatar

Except you want them to accept a responsibility that comes with certain problems that are rather problematic for people with a Chareidi outlook. So you absolutely can boil it down to something you want Chareidim to understand so they will comply with your set of beliefs

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Dov Kagan's avatar

He litteraly just write understanding each other

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Nachum's avatar

OK. Well, I understand charedim better than they understand themselves, then. Or at least than many of them are willing to admit. We all know what's at issue here. But just because I understand doesn't mean they're correct.

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Dov Kagan's avatar

Really?!?! Wow that's amazing. Please pray tell what is it that you understand so much better about myself than I do? Would truly like to know!

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Nachum's avatar

Oh, let's stop beating around the bush. Get past the PR excuse of "we're defending you by learning" (which no charedi really cares about in the first place) and the patently ridiculous self-excuse of "anything other than learning is bittul torah" and the self-defeating excuse of "our boys are so weak in background that they won't stay religious" (actual subtext: "Or, worse, will stay religious but no longer vote for us), and you get to the real reason, which we all know: Charedim have never made peace with modern Zionism (or any Zionism, even ancient), and especially not its success. (That's why their spokesman casually, and ridiculously, claim it is a failure.) That's the issue. That's the *only* issue. (In fact, in a broader sense it's the issue for well-nigh *everything* that defines charedim: If it's not from "unzerer," it's treif.)

So best to ignore the State of Israel as much as possible, because its very existence raises questions that are far too disturbing to the charedi worldview and view of history. Ignoring its existence, of course, *definitely* means not putting on a uniform issued by it. Of course, every charedi carries at least a couple of documents in his wallet with the seal of the State of Israel on them, but at least there's no risk to life in that.

If you don't understand that about yourself, I can't help you.

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Michael Sedley's avatar

No - I think that it must be a 2-way street

There must be more interaction between Haredim and other segments of society specifically so that we can understand and appreciate one-another.

When I moved to Israel over 30 years ago, there were many mixed neighborhoods with significant Haredi and non-Haredi populations. Bayit Vegan, Har Nof, and even places like Geula and Bnei Brak all had significant non Haredi populations, and the communities interacted with each other on busses, in stores, and public parks, and as a result got to know one-another and understand each other's values.

Unfortunately today the vast majority of Haredim live in neighborhoods that are close to 100% Haredi, and as a result, most non-Haredi Israelis do not interact with Haredim on a regular basis, and are missing out on seeing the many things which makes the Haredi community so beautiful, things like Hachnasat Orchim, Chessed, and family values.

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Nachum's avatar

When you say "today they live in..." you're leaving out the not-insignificant point that this is because the non-charedim *moved out*. (Obviously places *founded* to be 100% charedi are different.) I can't think of an example of a once-mixed neighborhood that no longer is that went the other way.

Why would they have moved out?

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Michael Sedley's avatar

I think that non-Haredim moved out of Bayti Vegan and Har Nof as they were feeling increasingly unwelcome, and slowly non-Haredi schools, kindergartens, and shuls were being shut down.

This is a 2 way street, I was very sorry to hear people in my non-Haredi neighborhood say that they would be very worried if Haredim moved in as it would change the nature of the neighborhood.

I think that we need to re-learn to live with one another, and I see very little desire in either the Haredi or non-Haredi community to do that.

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Nachum's avatar

Do you not believe that neighborhoods can change for the worse because a certain demographic moves in? This isn't just a charedi thing, at least when you look to other countries.

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Sara Schwartz's avatar

Non chareidim feel pushed out. That is what is happening in RBS A. It's getting harder and harder to live here if you are not chareidi. There are no new non chareidi schools being opened in RBS A and the existing ones are bursting at the seams. If someone doesn't have school options for their children, of course they are going to move.

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Michael Sedley's avatar

RBS is a great example of non-Haredim being pushed out.

When we moved to Modiin almost 20 years ago when both RBS and Modiin were new cities, we had several "refugees" from RBS who had been pressured to leave, even people who initially moved to RBS as they were looking for a religious environment to raise their kids. There were even people who had knocks on the door and being told that the way they dressed was not appropriate for the neighborhood and they should leave.

Yes they could have stayed and fought for the future of the neighborhood, but why would you want to raise your kids in an environment like that where they are made to feel unwelcome, especially when there are so many other options with warm welcoming communities and excellent Torani educational opportunities.

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Avraham marcus's avatar

Gotta just dig in you heels.

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Sara Schwartz's avatar

When the iriya wants to send your child to the other side of the city for school, there's no digging in your heels.

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Mark Smilowitz's avatar

Here's another suggestion. Make an appointment with your religious leaders - your local shul rabbi, rosh yeshiva, or gadol hador - and tell them honestly your dilemma. At least the leadership should gain a sense of how their constituents are struggling with this way of life.

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Chana Siegel's avatar

A haredi relative of mine in his mid-50s, a veteran oleh who spent some years in kollel, recently enlisted in the IDF's shlav bet, the shorter program for older candidates. Most of the others in his basic training were haredi men in their 20s and 30s. Obviously, such personal integrity is exceptional, but that's the kind of man he is. At the end of basic training, he was chosen Outstading Soldier.

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David Guttmann's avatar

I am in israel now and met a Chareidi young man (black hat et Al) told me he was an ex Talmud of itri and was doing sheirut Leumi volunteering in different placement by the organization such as Zaka government service army support etc for two or three years. He told me many others were doing the same ignoring the gedolim quietly leaving the noise making to the batlanim. I was very taken with this young man and of it is true that there many others quietly following this path there may be hope. Has anyone one else experienced this phenomenon?

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Nachum's avatar

"There but for the grace of the Gedolim"- ha!

(A little humility is always called for. My father, knowing where he came from and how his contemporaries ended up, cites the original version of that when talking about being frum, period.)

The voting advice is a good idea, but alas I fear it won't have much practical effect. Shas voters- who serve and work!- will keep voting for Shas out of ethnic and superstitious reasons until Ben-Gvir pulls them away, hopefully soon. (And even if your gorge rises at the thought, you should be praying Ben-Gvir succeeds.) Also, for the record, Bayit Yehudi doesn't exist anymore.

The problem is that most of the alternatives range from the corrupt to the hollow to the stupid to the insane. (The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to you.) Hope for Bennett, I suppose.

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Aug 27, 2024
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Nachum's avatar

I didn't see the Arabs worth mentioning. That you do says a lot about you, none of it good.

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Aug 28, 2024
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Nachum's avatar

We're talking about voting here. Bennett obviously didn't vote for Abbas.

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Charles's avatar

Like this post because instead of the non constructive and daily bashing, here the bashing is tempered by compassion and some constructive suggestions

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Shy Guy's avatar

I disagree that the articles presented until now have been unconstructive. They shed light on right versus wrong - literally אמת versus שקר.

Personally I have been convinced whenever and as much as possible to cease giving money to Haredi causes and to respectfully answer back when hearing the tripe some of my haredi family and neighbors, both Israeli and overseas-born, espouse on the subject.

(Edited for grammatical corrections.)

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Michael Lieber's avatar

Here's the text with minor grammatical tweaks incorporated:

The original poster is objectively correct. Unfortunately, this post is an outlier for Slifkin. It is low on charedi-bashing and provides mostly actual constructive ideas. The fact that you or, as Slifkin often puts it, "MANY" people have changed their minds because of his other posts has zero objective value. A statistician would need CPR after reading that anecdotal evidence from within a biased group is proof enough to determine that empirically hateful and divisive rhetoric is "helpful", in other words, a toeles.

I actually hope that this post can be a turning point for Slifkin to, as I've said many times before, vociferously air his position, which I mostly agree with, while doing so without the gratuitous hate-mongering (actually counter-productive) and simultaneously offering concrete ideas on how to practically bring people to understanding each other better and then, hopefully, action will follow.

In that spirit, I will push back on this post too, somewhat. It's a good one but still sees things a bit too one-sided. I would add back the Charedim's increasing of prayers, learning and mitzvos on behalf of success on the battlefield. With prayer, even Slifkin concedes that there are many sources for praying on behalf of others. And for learning and mitzvos, while doing so on behalf of a specific living person or group may not really exist in classic Torah sources, it definitely DOES exist on behalf of the community as a whole. In the past 2 weeks, the Torah itself references us realizing as a nation that all of our being in the Land and any success is determined by our good deeds and learning Torah. The gemara in Shabbos 119 also lists bad deeds that destroyed Jerusalem, and, in some cases, good deeds that helped sustain Jerusalem. Believing that the IDF is the main component of how we will win this battle is in direct opposition to Hashem's warning not to believe that our success is due to our own power and strength. So while the soldiers are engaged in the dangerous task of actual fighting, it seems shortsighted not to ask a segment of the population, who apparently aren't willing (yet) to contribute on the battlefield, to increase their Torah and mitzvos so as a nation we are deemed more worthy. I would, however, recommend that there be more accountability and formal institution of these good deeds on behalf of the soldiers. For example, each yeshiva can add another half-hour seder called "the soldier seder" to study mussar and such. I think the informal "we're learning or davening for the soldiers" without any noticeable difference in the daily routine definitely minimizes the Charedi claim that they are doing their part. The same can be said of chessed projects. Many more can be instituted in these communities that specifically benefit the soldiers and their families. (To note, many already have been put in place in the Anglo-Charedi communities and even some in Israeli-Charedi ones.)

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michael stern's avatar

How about everyone who is sitting in learning and healthy giving blood - on a regular basis ? One can do this every 3 months or so (at least that was the case in my time.) I did it in practice every 5 months when I was in yeshiva in Israel because we were not near any town. At the time there was a war on at the Canal.

It only takes about an hour assuming no queues and obviously it saves lives. Every town I imagine has a place where this can be done; often MDA. One word of caution - the first time after I did it I stood up immediately - and fainted. Your body needs time to adjust - especially the first time.

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Joe Berry's avatar

I think giving blood is a wonderful thing. Costs nothing and yet it saves lives. Unfortunately, I can no longer give blood. I was rejected the last 3 times I tried (I never seem to have enough iron in my body no matter what I do).

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michael stern's avatar

If you cannot do it you cannot do it. No reason to feel bad at all. I am now to old to give - not my fault - I blame the passage of time.

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Martin Spitzer's avatar

Once again thanks for your posts and opening these important discussions.

It is clear that these posts are a one way street, unfortunately there is no meaningful dialogue between the two factions, leading to progress.

You have highlighted the theological debate, the practical need and the pure injustice. In order to move forward, I think it would be necessary to hold the charadi leadership to account. Perhaps they should be invited to a debate with DL leaders about these issues, or if they will not attend, then maybe an open letter written to charedi leadership and dropped and distributed in charedi areas etc.

An easier prey would be the chutznik charadim, especially those tapped up to give to the most recent campaign of $107m. People who have parted with hard earned cash, will be more likely to want answers…

Change will not happen unless it is forced and that can only happen, when the people start to realise that their own leaders do not have robust reasonings for the status quo.

Please can we try to use this momentum for real change and not just an echo chamber. Your readers are all in agreement, so let’s galvanise everyone into action. Each reader of this blog should be armed with leaflets and knowledge to stand up to our charadi brethren and demand answers.

Good luck

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test's avatar

You believe that figure, I have a bridge to sell you. It's all in the marketing.

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Justin Alexander's avatar

Don't forget Kahn Academy to help fill in those gaps in secular education children might need when leaving charedi school

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Shy Guy's avatar

I'm away from home somewhere in the country. While leaving the local Shas-supportive Eidot Mizrach shul I davened in this morning, I noticed a single copy of a glossy paper pamphlet on the table, titled:

שימני כחותם (מהדורה שניה מורחבת)

שאלות ותשובות בענין הכלא הצבאי, ודרכי ההתמודדות המעשיים מול המצב החמור

At first I thought it was addressed to soldiers being harassed by the left progressive office of the military prosecutor and her underlings (here I think Rabbi Slifkin needs to speak to people in the know about what's actually going on). Then I flipped over to the back cover where it reads that this was produced by:

ועד ההסברה כנגד גזירת הגיוס

בהכוונת גדולי התורה שליט"א

The pamphlet is about 20 pages long.

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Pepe Cattan's avatar

Hi Rabbi I love the way you write and your posts (I’ve read every single post) and agreed in most of them

And I’m sorry if it sounds disrespectful…

It’s easy for me to write you in my home (Mexico)far from war and even more far to understand the situation with IDF and Charedi world

It’s sad how the situation it’s going regarding the IDF GOD BLESS THEM

But I clearly don’t understand your position regrading tefilah and the Torah study as well

I understand is not the way you tell dati leumi how the charedi world is helping with it but to tell there is nothing on it is a mistake

(My position is not to challenge you but rather to understand how do you see tefilah and Torah and what role does it play in this war?)

And how stopping to support the yeshivah is helping to this matter

We need both and they have to agree to go to IDF as well but the point you propose here doesn’t help for it

Again I’m Sorry I just want to hear what do you think on this matters

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Michael Eliyahou's avatar

Hi Pepe, I suspect that Rav Slifkin's biggest concern is those of us living in Israel, as citizens and participants in the society. As such, there is a huge amount of awareness that we experience day in, day out, that we are all in this war situation together, and every single person in Israel is affected directly. And then, we observe a tendency that some people choose to help the war effort only with symbolic gestures or metaphorical statements such as "I'm davenning for the soldiers and saying Tehillim [but doing absolutely nothing else]." Nobody actually says that last bit, but that's clear in the way the first part is said.

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Pepe Cattan's avatar

Hi Michael,thank you ,I understand what you saying !!!

Is it that we (at least me)are very confused about the subject here And what can we argue when speaking from a religious perspective? With other charedi and make them understand

As a religious Jew myself, what does my ethics and morals say about this subject?

In this war no just for glory and land but of good against evil

We ,the Jewish people, and not just in Israel but outside as well are fighting and we are more distanced than ever

As rabbi sacks ones said “Jewish unity exists as an idea.why then should it not exist as a fact”

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PerthJew's avatar

If you don't vote for Likkud or Religious Zionism who do you propose to vote for, Swifkin?

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Nachum's avatar

Otzma Yehudit, the only right-wing anti-charedi party. :-) The charedim hate them too.

Well, Lieberman too, but he's pretty corrupt and not-so-secretly in league with Shas.

The rest of them range from blank slate tools to stupidly inane to lunatic to terrorist. I trust I don't have to tell you who's who.

Absent all that, you're left with hopes for Bennett and./or Sa'ar.

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Ephraim's avatar

" but he's pretty corrupt and not-so-secretly in league with Shas.

The rest of them range from blank slate tools to stupidly inane to lunatic to terrorist. I trust I don't have to tell you who's who."

But enough about Deri.

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James Nicholson's avatar

"Well, Lieberman too, but he's pretty corrupt and not-so-secretly in league with Shas."

Can you expand on this please?

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Chana Siegel's avatar

Please elaborate further.

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Nachum's avatar

I just have to make the sociological point that the way the Rashi script is written lets you know the demographic of the artist.

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David Zalkin's avatar

Likud isn't a charedi-enabler??

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Nachum's avatar

I think he said it *is*.

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Chana Siegel's avatar

Oh, definitely. Like with a drug pusher, the first dose is free.

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Cary  Hillebrand's avatar

In New York City there is a wonderful organization called Footsteps (https://www.footstepsorg.org/) to act as a support system for individuals and families that choose to leave the Charedim world. I don't know if there is a similar resource in Israel. If not, it is sorely needed.

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Nachum's avatar

There's also Jew in the City's program, which tries to keep people frum when they leave the velt.

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