But before I begin, I hope its clear that even though I completely disagree with you, I have zero hate in my heart. I love you Natan - you are a fellow Jew. So despite our disagreements, let's agree that since we both believe in Hashem and His Torah, we are brothers and agree about the absolutely most fundamental stuff. We are arguing only in details. Maybe even important details, but details. (You can check out my post https://rationalistjudaism2.substack.com/p/dear-atheist to see where I stand and where I think you stand.)
That being said, at least you are consistent Natan. God is not prevalent in nature, but *we* believe that He is controlling every single aspect. God is technically absent from history, but we believe He is painting a grand picture through every single aspect. Honestly, God is pretty absent from the Shulchan Aruch, which is just a book of laws, but we believe that it is His will that are these laws. That is how a good Torah Jew learns the words of the SA. As the will of the Living God, leaning abotu Him, what He likes and doesn't like כביכול.
We believe God is everywhere and everything, and as we say in this week's parsha, "אין עוד מלבדו," read that in its most literal sense possible. That is what everything in Judaism is about according to the Rambam and mekubalim, take your pick - this is where they truly agree.
Including the churban and פסוקים וקינות about it. Even if it's not explicit, it's the deeper message behind every word.
If you need to understand how, it's because the beis hamikdash wasn't just some building, it was the מקום of השראת השכינה. Same exact reason why we are not just 'some people' and today is not just 'some day' - we being a people is because we follow Hashem's will through the Torah. (What does being a Jew mean to you?) When we are worthy, meaning we are representing Him in our lives, we get to represent Him outwardly as well. We get to be a superpower who stands for Him. But being a superpower without standing for Him is meaningless. We have nothing to us - as Yisroel - but the fact that we represent and follow Him.
So when we mourn, we are mourning that building, that loss of Him being the center of our lives, and incidentally, through the חורבן, the loss of the physical manifestation of that connection.
Can I prove to you God is in nature? Can I prove to you that God is running our history? Not so immediately, but that is the נשמה of nature and history. It is the main point, the center, the complete explanation of history and nature. So too, that is the נשמה of today, the main point and complete explanation. If you don't see it, I'm not sure how to 'prove' it to you other than my advice to learn these things according to the מסורה, including our favorite Maimonides.
Alright, it doesn't look like Rabbi Slifikin will be coming back to this. So to summarize some of the comment section there are 3 unanswered (as of now) fatal flaws that completely undermine this post:
The first 2 relate to the point that as followers of rabbinic judaism we don't draw conclusions directly from the bible and prophets but rather from the teachings and interpretations of Chazal
1. The user d g pointed out that the post goes directly against the list of the Mishna in Taanis 4:6. In rabbinic Judaism you can't get much more authoritative than a Mishna. The date of 9 Av was chosen specifically because it was the day of the destruction of the 2 temples. Clearly the destruction of the temple specifically is meant to embody what we are supposed to be mourning. And obviously that is not just a building of sticks and stones, but rather what that building represented - our connection to and serving of God.
2. The Rambam in Hilchos Teshuva (chapter 9) goes directly against the premise of the post that if an idea is not mentioned in the bible text that means its not relevant/important. We see that there may be other reasons why the bible left out the most lofty idea. And in fact, the exact same reasoning for the omission used by the Rambam there can be paralleled here as explained in my comment (https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-are-we-sad-about/comment/21465542).
3. Even accepting the assumptions of the post it leads you to have to say one of 2 absurdities:
a. We should be mourning the loss of tools without focusing on what the purpose of the tools was.
b. A Jewish national identity, national homeland, Jerusalem etc. are not tools given to us and designed by God in order to facilitate and further his overarching plan rather they are ends in of themselves. If God gave them to us as tools for a higher purpose, common sense would say that we should include a focus on that higher purpose in our mourning.
You see guys? This is how you calmly dismantle a rationalist judaism post without resorting to silly name-calling and the like. I don't think its any less effective, aderaba its more effective.
EDIT:
2 important additions:
1. The Rambam in hilchos taanis (5,1) says explicitly that the purpose of Tisha B'av (and other fasts) is to motivate the people to repent and fix their ways. Using the reasoning behind the rambam in hilchos teshuva, the best way to do so would be to talk about the material destruction despite the real tragedy being the loftier/higher idea.
2. The Meiri on that Mishna in Taanis makes the point that the main part of the list is the 2 temples and the other 3 on the list are just addons (see there for elaboration).
Does i not perhaps enter everyone heads that connection to Hashem and moral and ethical decay are opposites. That dishonesty ( mishkalos) is called a toeiva. In whkch case there is really little machkojest here. We lost our closer connection to Hashem due to our moral decay and thst is thus the focus of the text prescribed for that day. Thr physical destruction was just am outer symbol of the internal destruction. The "bleeding paroches" of Chazal. It is cleqr that this is how Chazal ( "rabbinic judaism") saw it, just like the prophets had. We often just dont like to admit it. We dont like to discuss our dirty laundry and uses ahavas yisroel and loshon horah as excuses , exactly the way the people did against the prophets. Kudos to Rabbi Slifkin and others who point this out . Dont destroy the message, the mussar, with hair splitting and pilpulim.
It seems that you completely missed the point of the discussion here. We are not discussing the CAUSE of the destruction. Everyone (i think) would agree that it was a combination of sins between man and his fellow as well as man and God, which as you said are very much 2 sides of the same coin. The issue at hand is what are we mourning over on Tisha b'av (Hence the title "What are we sad about"). When Rabbi slifikin in number 7 lised "the moral corruption of our people" he was referring to moral corruption the churban caused (such as starvation leading to eating ones own children etc.) not moral corruption that led to the churban.
You made the same mistake last year. You are forgetting the mishna in Taanis 4:6 that identifies the source for the fast day/day of mourning. It was the five things that happened on that day, three of which were the destruction of the two batei mikdash and the plowing over of the area (the first was not addressed at all in Eicha and beitar followed it by centuries). The kinos address beitar minimally so isn’t it rather obvious that the central theme of the day is the Bais Hamikdash? It should also be understood that we relate more to the second more recent destruction - not addressed by Eicha, obviously - than the first. Additionally, Eicha is not the “founding document” of the day - it is a stand-alone Megillah that Chazal instituted should be read on this day so discovering a different focus there is fascinating but does not affect what the day is about any more than noticing that Rus does not mention Shavuos (ok, a little more). Your point is an excellent one and much of what you want to take from it is valid. But challenging the overwhelmingly obvious fact that the day is primarily about mourning the destructions is futile. And so is challenging the equally obvious fact that the purpose of the Mikdash, as it says in the pasuk, is v’shachanti bsocham - G-d’s presence among us = being close to Him.
I think you are missing a key idea here. I will start with a parallel: In the Shema prayer (as well as the tochacha, the brachos u'klalos etc.) we are told about the material bounty that we will be rewarded with if we follow the commandments, and the physically calamity if we don't. No mention anywhere of spiritual goals or the like. Despite this, the Rambam in Hilchos Teshuva (Chapter 9) makes what should be the obvious point, that these things are not the ikar at all, rather they are just the means to give us the time and ability to focus on the true goal of attaining spiritual pursuits of connecting to God, studying his word and fulfilling his will. That is where the true focus should be.
Similarly, in Eicha and kinnos a big emphasis is put on the physical destruction, loss of national pride and our homeland etc. But what is the real focus? those things are important only as a means to an end - the fulfillment of our covenantal relationship with God as individuals and as a collective. Why is a national homeland so important? why is a national identity so important? Because if done correctly these things facilitate the best fulfillment of God's covenant with us. When we have a national identity defined by our collective commitment to God and his will, and when we have a homeland with institutions geared towards developing and fulfilling our national goals, this allows us to attain our ultimate goal - serving God in the best way possible.
We don't just mourn the loss of the tools. that would be missing the point. We mourn losing what the tools were supposed to provide us with and help us attain. Your list of 7 completely ignores this very key idea.
The idea that someone can count the amount of times an idea is mentioned in the pesukim and through that know its relative importance is pretty silly, and betrays a shallow and superficial understanding of Torah. The example of the Rambam and Shema is just one of many to show this.
I disagree. Yeshivat Eretz Yisrael and Am Yisrael as a nation is an integral part of fulfilling the Mitzvot.Eretz Yisrael is a special place for performing the Mitzvot. That is why the Medrash and the Rambam think of performance of the Mitzvot outside of Eretz Yisrael as " practice".The State is an expression of Am Yisrael as a whole. Your mental approach is that of an individual in Galut who thinks the Torah is fulfilled in its entirety and essence outside of Eretz Yisrael.
It seems that you completely ignored everything I wrote.
Let me be more explicit. A national homeland and national identity are integral parts of our religion. This is obvious to anyone with a basic connection to judaism. But why are they integral? Why is it such an important part of Gods plan? The answer is because they are vehicles through which we can best fulfill our God given mandate in this world.
We mourn the loss of the vehicles, but only because we can no longer fulfill the overarching goal because of their loss.
There is a central theme that may indeed answer your question. This destruction resulted from sin. Throughout the Kinnos and Eicha, we tell God that we deserve it. This would mean we must examine our own actions, are we living correctly, and perhaps our sanctuary in Israel is temporary and pending a teshuvah, perhaps if we fall short of what we can achieve, this gift may be removed once again. That's a scary thought. It may give you a bit more respect for this scary day once you understand this. Today, we see that God doesn't play games. We will suffer catastrophe if we do evil. As a result of turning away from Hashem, severe retribution is meted out.
Well thank God that as followers of rabbinic Judaism we have teachings of chaza"l that make it clear that what really matters is the loss of our connection to God. the others are just shells, the means to achieve what really matters.
I'm curious, what do you believe? why is having a nation (and national pride) important? why is Jerusalem important? Why does the Jewish nation exist? Is it for the same reasons that members of other nations would give?
I'm curious, how do you account for Yirmiyah and the authors of the Kinnos not focusing on what "really matters"? Were they not followers of rabbinic Judaism? Is it not possible that you are misunderstanding rabbinic Judaism?
I would redirect your question to Rambam in hilchos teshuva. He says that despite the fact that the Bible goes on and on about our reward being physical material bounty, that is not what really matters. They are a means to an end not mentioned! How do you respond to that?
Will you be responding to this? I really thought we were getting somewhere here. this is a pretty critical point relating to your entire thesis that the fact that something is not emphasized in the pesukim proves its lack of importance/relevance. I would love to know if you have a compelling response - I'm here for the truth, and if you can explain why I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it.
It could be that you really do have what to say but just don't have the time to respond. If so, at least say that and it won't give off the impression that you just abandoned the discussion.
Meaning, although the highest/loftiest/real goal is the ultimate spiritual pursuit, the torah incentivizes by talking about material reward as it will be most effective for the masses who aren't holding on the higher level.
Similarly it would make sense to say that when the prophets discuss the terrible tragedies that have befallen our people, there was a purpose. the prophets didn't prophesize just for the fun of it. they did so in order to influence the people to fix there ways (This is explicit in rambam hilchos taanis (5,1) with regard to the fast of tisha b'av). So the most effective method to influence the masses would be to emphasis the physical destruction. But we would like to hold ourselves to the higher standard. we know that the physical wellbeing of our nation is really just a means to the spiritual ends. therefor it would be only natural to focus on the spiritual ends.
Do you not agree that it is very reasonable to assume that this is how rambam would explain it?
Thanks for the list of all things to mourn, but I think the Bais Hamikdash is focused on in at least 10 of the Kinnos, all at the end starting with the word ציון. (some call them ציונים.) That is obviously referring to the BH and EY. Hakalir also has one explicitly titled על חורבן בית המקדש. However, you are right that still most of Hakalir don't, but I think the reason is because when someone mourns a tragedy, the more stirring way is to focus on the state of things and demoralization than what was actually lost. For example, אם תאכלנה נשים פרים is stressed a lot but I doubt it was as common as it sounds. Rather these few examples show how low we fell as a result of what we have been through. I think for this reason Hakalir's focus is on the BH the least, as opposed to R Yehuda Halevi, since Hakalir is focused on moving poetry in a very high-fluting way to describe the oppressed. I believe the same goes for Eicha. It is the nation as a whole feeling completely demoralized, obviously a result of all other things discussed on Tisha Biav.
Yes,in this physical world of human beings everything has connection to Torah and Mitzvot.A nation like other nations? Yes but as a special nation fulfilling on Earth His Torah.
Exactly. So when we mourn the loss of our national identity, what we are really mourning is our no longer being able to fulfill our role as a special nation of keeping his Torah in the way it was meant to be.
Yes, but still as a regular nation,with, commerce,national policies, proper interpersonal international relations, serving the people's physical material needs as well as their spiritual needs etc..
Agreed. It is far more than the first two you mentioned, and in fact, I would say those are way down the list. Importantly, unlike other posts in which you simply advocate reading the words of Tanach alone without Mesorah (a totally untenable posture), here you are actually on firm ground. The concept of "spirituality" is late, and not the focus of either Eicha, Chazal, or the Kinos. The tragedy of the day is first and foremost human suffering, followed closely by loss of national pride (of which the loss of the Temple is a symbol.) "Spirituality" per se, except insofar as its decline can be attributed to the loss of national pride and the Temple, barely registers.
Maybe a historical answer: immediately after the destruction, it would have been very inappropriate to focus on the Beis Hamikdash and ignore the human tragedy that has just unfolded. Eicha and kinnos are works of lamentation, not philosophy. That's why the kinnos for the Holocaust focus on the human suffering, not say, the closing of all the European yeshivos.
Undoubtedly though, the cause of the human tragedy was Israel's sinfullness, which resulted in God distancing Himself from us, the personification of which was the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash.
Did you ever notice, the farther one progresses in time through the Kinnos, the more the authors focus on Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivas? Such figures are barely mentioned in the Kalir Kinnos, they are mentioned more prominently in the Medieval Kinnos, and then they are clearly singled out in the modern Holocaust ones.
The point of every Kinnos is to convey feelings of tragedy inside. The takeover of Yeshiva to be a major part of life as opposed to just learning Torah happened later.
For example, in the kinnah שאלי שרופה באש we mourn the tremendous amount of manuscripts that were burned in 1242, but not a single mention of Torah being burned during the first century. You know why? Well first of all because there was no such thing as Talmudic manuscripts then, but even the many torah scrolls that were lost then was only a drop in the bucket to what was going on then. When in the 13th century, their main claim to fame was destroyed, it was understood to be a calamity of a century. Indeed, much torah was forgotten as many books were lost forever, and most people in France did not study Gemara for the next 50 years as a result.
שאלי שרופה באש is a unique kinnah. So is ארזי לבנון. However, the vast bulk of stam kinnos do not distinguish between types of Jews, as though the loss of one type is any more tragic than the loss of another.
They dont use the term "RY" per se, but all the Holocaust kinos speak about Rabbonim and students of Torah, as though they were in a separate class from the hamon am.
Now, you can tell me that the mishna and gemara does the same thing, with different laws for talmidei chachamaim, and different laws for amei haaretz, and for the general public. And you know what? I dont like that either.
There are plenty of מאמרי חז"ל that specifically discuss the loss of ת"ח exclusively... I think the חפץ חיים does a great job explaining why in אהבת חסד ג:ה
עוד אמרו (שם): כל המוריד דמעות על אדם כשר שמת, הקב"ה סופרן ומניחן בבית גנזיו. וענינו, כי כל זה הוא מורה על הבוכה שהוא אדם כשר, ומתאונן על שנחסר עבודת ה' מן העולם, לכך חשוב בעיני השם יתברך כל דמע ודמע
We've had this conversation already - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-ignoring-and-ignorance-of-tisha-bav?utm_source=substack&utm_campaign=post_embed&utm_medium=web - but:
But before I begin, I hope its clear that even though I completely disagree with you, I have zero hate in my heart. I love you Natan - you are a fellow Jew. So despite our disagreements, let's agree that since we both believe in Hashem and His Torah, we are brothers and agree about the absolutely most fundamental stuff. We are arguing only in details. Maybe even important details, but details. (You can check out my post https://rationalistjudaism2.substack.com/p/dear-atheist to see where I stand and where I think you stand.)
That being said, at least you are consistent Natan. God is not prevalent in nature, but *we* believe that He is controlling every single aspect. God is technically absent from history, but we believe He is painting a grand picture through every single aspect. Honestly, God is pretty absent from the Shulchan Aruch, which is just a book of laws, but we believe that it is His will that are these laws. That is how a good Torah Jew learns the words of the SA. As the will of the Living God, leaning abotu Him, what He likes and doesn't like כביכול.
We believe God is everywhere and everything, and as we say in this week's parsha, "אין עוד מלבדו," read that in its most literal sense possible. That is what everything in Judaism is about according to the Rambam and mekubalim, take your pick - this is where they truly agree.
Including the churban and פסוקים וקינות about it. Even if it's not explicit, it's the deeper message behind every word.
If you need to understand how, it's because the beis hamikdash wasn't just some building, it was the מקום of השראת השכינה. Same exact reason why we are not just 'some people' and today is not just 'some day' - we being a people is because we follow Hashem's will through the Torah. (What does being a Jew mean to you?) When we are worthy, meaning we are representing Him in our lives, we get to represent Him outwardly as well. We get to be a superpower who stands for Him. But being a superpower without standing for Him is meaningless. We have nothing to us - as Yisroel - but the fact that we represent and follow Him.
So when we mourn, we are mourning that building, that loss of Him being the center of our lives, and incidentally, through the חורבן, the loss of the physical manifestation of that connection.
Can I prove to you God is in nature? Can I prove to you that God is running our history? Not so immediately, but that is the נשמה of nature and history. It is the main point, the center, the complete explanation of history and nature. So too, that is the נשמה of today, the main point and complete explanation. If you don't see it, I'm not sure how to 'prove' it to you other than my advice to learn these things according to the מסורה, including our favorite Maimonides.
Alright, it doesn't look like Rabbi Slifikin will be coming back to this. So to summarize some of the comment section there are 3 unanswered (as of now) fatal flaws that completely undermine this post:
The first 2 relate to the point that as followers of rabbinic judaism we don't draw conclusions directly from the bible and prophets but rather from the teachings and interpretations of Chazal
1. The user d g pointed out that the post goes directly against the list of the Mishna in Taanis 4:6. In rabbinic Judaism you can't get much more authoritative than a Mishna. The date of 9 Av was chosen specifically because it was the day of the destruction of the 2 temples. Clearly the destruction of the temple specifically is meant to embody what we are supposed to be mourning. And obviously that is not just a building of sticks and stones, but rather what that building represented - our connection to and serving of God.
2. The Rambam in Hilchos Teshuva (chapter 9) goes directly against the premise of the post that if an idea is not mentioned in the bible text that means its not relevant/important. We see that there may be other reasons why the bible left out the most lofty idea. And in fact, the exact same reasoning for the omission used by the Rambam there can be paralleled here as explained in my comment (https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-are-we-sad-about/comment/21465542).
3. Even accepting the assumptions of the post it leads you to have to say one of 2 absurdities:
a. We should be mourning the loss of tools without focusing on what the purpose of the tools was.
b. A Jewish national identity, national homeland, Jerusalem etc. are not tools given to us and designed by God in order to facilitate and further his overarching plan rather they are ends in of themselves. If God gave them to us as tools for a higher purpose, common sense would say that we should include a focus on that higher purpose in our mourning.
You see guys? This is how you calmly dismantle a rationalist judaism post without resorting to silly name-calling and the like. I don't think its any less effective, aderaba its more effective.
EDIT:
2 important additions:
1. The Rambam in hilchos taanis (5,1) says explicitly that the purpose of Tisha B'av (and other fasts) is to motivate the people to repent and fix their ways. Using the reasoning behind the rambam in hilchos teshuva, the best way to do so would be to talk about the material destruction despite the real tragedy being the loftier/higher idea.
2. The Meiri on that Mishna in Taanis makes the point that the main part of the list is the 2 temples and the other 3 on the list are just addons (see there for elaboration).
Does i not perhaps enter everyone heads that connection to Hashem and moral and ethical decay are opposites. That dishonesty ( mishkalos) is called a toeiva. In whkch case there is really little machkojest here. We lost our closer connection to Hashem due to our moral decay and thst is thus the focus of the text prescribed for that day. Thr physical destruction was just am outer symbol of the internal destruction. The "bleeding paroches" of Chazal. It is cleqr that this is how Chazal ( "rabbinic judaism") saw it, just like the prophets had. We often just dont like to admit it. We dont like to discuss our dirty laundry and uses ahavas yisroel and loshon horah as excuses , exactly the way the people did against the prophets. Kudos to Rabbi Slifkin and others who point this out . Dont destroy the message, the mussar, with hair splitting and pilpulim.
It seems that you completely missed the point of the discussion here. We are not discussing the CAUSE of the destruction. Everyone (i think) would agree that it was a combination of sins between man and his fellow as well as man and God, which as you said are very much 2 sides of the same coin. The issue at hand is what are we mourning over on Tisha b'av (Hence the title "What are we sad about"). When Rabbi slifikin in number 7 lised "the moral corruption of our people" he was referring to moral corruption the churban caused (such as starvation leading to eating ones own children etc.) not moral corruption that led to the churban.
You made the same mistake last year. You are forgetting the mishna in Taanis 4:6 that identifies the source for the fast day/day of mourning. It was the five things that happened on that day, three of which were the destruction of the two batei mikdash and the plowing over of the area (the first was not addressed at all in Eicha and beitar followed it by centuries). The kinos address beitar minimally so isn’t it rather obvious that the central theme of the day is the Bais Hamikdash? It should also be understood that we relate more to the second more recent destruction - not addressed by Eicha, obviously - than the first. Additionally, Eicha is not the “founding document” of the day - it is a stand-alone Megillah that Chazal instituted should be read on this day so discovering a different focus there is fascinating but does not affect what the day is about any more than noticing that Rus does not mention Shavuos (ok, a little more). Your point is an excellent one and much of what you want to take from it is valid. But challenging the overwhelmingly obvious fact that the day is primarily about mourning the destructions is futile. And so is challenging the equally obvious fact that the purpose of the Mikdash, as it says in the pasuk, is v’shachanti bsocham - G-d’s presence among us = being close to Him.
I think you are missing a key idea here. I will start with a parallel: In the Shema prayer (as well as the tochacha, the brachos u'klalos etc.) we are told about the material bounty that we will be rewarded with if we follow the commandments, and the physically calamity if we don't. No mention anywhere of spiritual goals or the like. Despite this, the Rambam in Hilchos Teshuva (Chapter 9) makes what should be the obvious point, that these things are not the ikar at all, rather they are just the means to give us the time and ability to focus on the true goal of attaining spiritual pursuits of connecting to God, studying his word and fulfilling his will. That is where the true focus should be.
Similarly, in Eicha and kinnos a big emphasis is put on the physical destruction, loss of national pride and our homeland etc. But what is the real focus? those things are important only as a means to an end - the fulfillment of our covenantal relationship with God as individuals and as a collective. Why is a national homeland so important? why is a national identity so important? Because if done correctly these things facilitate the best fulfillment of God's covenant with us. When we have a national identity defined by our collective commitment to God and his will, and when we have a homeland with institutions geared towards developing and fulfilling our national goals, this allows us to attain our ultimate goal - serving God in the best way possible.
We don't just mourn the loss of the tools. that would be missing the point. We mourn losing what the tools were supposed to provide us with and help us attain. Your list of 7 completely ignores this very key idea.
The idea that someone can count the amount of times an idea is mentioned in the pesukim and through that know its relative importance is pretty silly, and betrays a shallow and superficial understanding of Torah. The example of the Rambam and Shema is just one of many to show this.
I disagree. Yeshivat Eretz Yisrael and Am Yisrael as a nation is an integral part of fulfilling the Mitzvot.Eretz Yisrael is a special place for performing the Mitzvot. That is why the Medrash and the Rambam think of performance of the Mitzvot outside of Eretz Yisrael as " practice".The State is an expression of Am Yisrael as a whole. Your mental approach is that of an individual in Galut who thinks the Torah is fulfilled in its entirety and essence outside of Eretz Yisrael.
It seems that you completely ignored everything I wrote.
Let me be more explicit. A national homeland and national identity are integral parts of our religion. This is obvious to anyone with a basic connection to judaism. But why are they integral? Why is it such an important part of Gods plan? The answer is because they are vehicles through which we can best fulfill our God given mandate in this world.
We mourn the loss of the vehicles, but only because we can no longer fulfill the overarching goal because of their loss.
Pardon the Ramban.
There is a central theme that may indeed answer your question. This destruction resulted from sin. Throughout the Kinnos and Eicha, we tell God that we deserve it. This would mean we must examine our own actions, are we living correctly, and perhaps our sanctuary in Israel is temporary and pending a teshuvah, perhaps if we fall short of what we can achieve, this gift may be removed once again. That's a scary thought. It may give you a bit more respect for this scary day once you understand this. Today, we see that God doesn't play games. We will suffer catastrophe if we do evil. As a result of turning away from Hashem, severe retribution is meted out.
Moses is not mentioned once in the Haggadah on Passover. Didn't he have something to do with the Israelites getting out of Egypt?
A common misconception.
See what R.Yossi says about the miracles.
Ok, so he's mentioned about as often as the Bais hamikdash in Eicha
You could admit you were wrong.
I was wrong
Good man!
Not sure I'd be up to the nisayon every day, but in honor of Tisha b'av.
(Isha Yiras Hashem)
Man?
He's not the focus of pesach. The focus is Hashem choosing us and redeeming us from Egypt.
I noticed that yesterday for the first time - that the beit hamikdash is not mentioned at all in Eicha. It all seems to be numbers 2-6 I think.
זנח ה' מזבחו נאר מקדשו
ב:ז
It is true that it is underrepresented
Ok , what are we really mourning. The article ends abruptly
It is widely believed that it is primarily about the first two. But they barely get mentioned.
Well thank God that as followers of rabbinic Judaism we have teachings of chaza"l that make it clear that what really matters is the loss of our connection to God. the others are just shells, the means to achieve what really matters.
I'm curious, what do you believe? why is having a nation (and national pride) important? why is Jerusalem important? Why does the Jewish nation exist? Is it for the same reasons that members of other nations would give?
I'm curious, how do you account for Yirmiyah and the authors of the Kinnos not focusing on what "really matters"? Were they not followers of rabbinic Judaism? Is it not possible that you are misunderstanding rabbinic Judaism?
I would redirect your question to Rambam in hilchos teshuva. He says that despite the fact that the Bible goes on and on about our reward being physical material bounty, that is not what really matters. They are a means to an end not mentioned! How do you respond to that?
The Torah is giving incentives. Rambam's view was that worldy incentices are more effective.
Will you be responding to this? I really thought we were getting somewhere here. this is a pretty critical point relating to your entire thesis that the fact that something is not emphasized in the pesukim proves its lack of importance/relevance. I would love to know if you have a compelling response - I'm here for the truth, and if you can explain why I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it.
It could be that you really do have what to say but just don't have the time to respond. If so, at least say that and it won't give off the impression that you just abandoned the discussion.
Meaning, although the highest/loftiest/real goal is the ultimate spiritual pursuit, the torah incentivizes by talking about material reward as it will be most effective for the masses who aren't holding on the higher level.
Similarly it would make sense to say that when the prophets discuss the terrible tragedies that have befallen our people, there was a purpose. the prophets didn't prophesize just for the fun of it. they did so in order to influence the people to fix there ways (This is explicit in rambam hilchos taanis (5,1) with regard to the fast of tisha b'av). So the most effective method to influence the masses would be to emphasis the physical destruction. But we would like to hold ourselves to the higher standard. we know that the physical wellbeing of our nation is really just a means to the spiritual ends. therefor it would be only natural to focus on the spiritual ends.
Do you not agree that it is very reasonable to assume that this is how rambam would explain it?
So it would seem that the rambam in hilchos teshuva completely undermines your point in this post.
But besides that you still are avoiding the question - what do you believe?
I see 2 possibilities:
a. while it is correct that these things are means to an end, we should not focus on the end in our mourning.
b. these are not means to an end, rather an ends in themselves.
which is it? Or is there another possibility I am missing?
It's b. The loss of these things is inherently a tragedy.
You didn't answer his questions though. They are important questions, not side points to this conversation. As far as your questions, see my comment above https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-are-we-sad-about/comment/21465981
Thanks for the list of all things to mourn, but I think the Bais Hamikdash is focused on in at least 10 of the Kinnos, all at the end starting with the word ציון. (some call them ציונים.) That is obviously referring to the BH and EY. Hakalir also has one explicitly titled על חורבן בית המקדש. However, you are right that still most of Hakalir don't, but I think the reason is because when someone mourns a tragedy, the more stirring way is to focus on the state of things and demoralization than what was actually lost. For example, אם תאכלנה נשים פרים is stressed a lot but I doubt it was as common as it sounds. Rather these few examples show how low we fell as a result of what we have been through. I think for this reason Hakalir's focus is on the BH the least, as opposed to R Yehuda Halevi, since Hakalir is focused on moving poetry in a very high-fluting way to describe the oppressed. I believe the same goes for Eicha. It is the nation as a whole feeling completely demoralized, obviously a result of all other things discussed on Tisha Biav.
Yes,in this physical world of human beings everything has connection to Torah and Mitzvot.A nation like other nations? Yes but as a special nation fulfilling on Earth His Torah.
Pardon,the Ramban.
Exactly. So when we mourn the loss of our national identity, what we are really mourning is our no longer being able to fulfill our role as a special nation of keeping his Torah in the way it was meant to be.
Yes, but still as a regular nation,with, commerce,national policies, proper interpersonal international relations, serving the people's physical material needs as well as their spiritual needs etc..
,
you seem to be missing my point here
Agreed. It is far more than the first two you mentioned, and in fact, I would say those are way down the list. Importantly, unlike other posts in which you simply advocate reading the words of Tanach alone without Mesorah (a totally untenable posture), here you are actually on firm ground. The concept of "spirituality" is late, and not the focus of either Eicha, Chazal, or the Kinos. The tragedy of the day is first and foremost human suffering, followed closely by loss of national pride (of which the loss of the Temple is a symbol.) "Spirituality" per se, except insofar as its decline can be attributed to the loss of national pride and the Temple, barely registers.
Good point Natan.
I don't agree with you often but this is definitely something to think about.
Maybe a historical answer: immediately after the destruction, it would have been very inappropriate to focus on the Beis Hamikdash and ignore the human tragedy that has just unfolded. Eicha and kinnos are works of lamentation, not philosophy. That's why the kinnos for the Holocaust focus on the human suffering, not say, the closing of all the European yeshivos.
Undoubtedly though, the cause of the human tragedy was Israel's sinfullness, which resulted in God distancing Himself from us, the personification of which was the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash.
Btw, liked your hook in the beginning:)
Did you ever notice, the farther one progresses in time through the Kinnos, the more the authors focus on Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivas? Such figures are barely mentioned in the Kalir Kinnos, they are mentioned more prominently in the Medieval Kinnos, and then they are clearly singled out in the modern Holocaust ones.
I dont like that.
The point of every Kinnos is to convey feelings of tragedy inside. The takeover of Yeshiva to be a major part of life as opposed to just learning Torah happened later.
For example, in the kinnah שאלי שרופה באש we mourn the tremendous amount of manuscripts that were burned in 1242, but not a single mention of Torah being burned during the first century. You know why? Well first of all because there was no such thing as Talmudic manuscripts then, but even the many torah scrolls that were lost then was only a drop in the bucket to what was going on then. When in the 13th century, their main claim to fame was destroyed, it was understood to be a calamity of a century. Indeed, much torah was forgotten as many books were lost forever, and most people in France did not study Gemara for the next 50 years as a result.
שאלי שרופה באש is a unique kinnah. So is ארזי לבנון. However, the vast bulk of stam kinnos do not distinguish between types of Jews, as though the loss of one type is any more tragic than the loss of another.
Honestly I only can think of one kinna that says the words "Rosh Yeshiva" and that is the one on the Holocaust from the Bobover Rebbe. Any others?
They dont use the term "RY" per se, but all the Holocaust kinos speak about Rabbonim and students of Torah, as though they were in a separate class from the hamon am.
Now, you can tell me that the mishna and gemara does the same thing, with different laws for talmidei chachamaim, and different laws for amei haaretz, and for the general public. And you know what? I dont like that either.
Thats your problem
There are plenty of מאמרי חז"ל that specifically discuss the loss of ת"ח exclusively... I think the חפץ חיים does a great job explaining why in אהבת חסד ג:ה
עוד אמרו (שם): כל המוריד דמעות על אדם כשר שמת, הקב"ה סופרן ומניחן בבית גנזיו. וענינו, כי כל זה הוא מורה על הבוכה שהוא אדם כשר, ומתאונן על שנחסר עבודת ה' מן העולם, לכך חשוב בעיני השם יתברך כל דמע ודמע
Well that's a different issue, be more specific next time.
There's a famous Gemara about R Akiva related to that....