Sort of. They admit to change with modifications within what they call kinds. So they admit that Dogs, wolves, coyotes are related but not cats and bears.
Do you think just stating your opinion makes you sound authoritative? Just stating, “the timeline doesn’t work out” isn’t an argument. What does that even mean? On what evidence do you base your statement on?
Yes, the human body just evolved accidentally. Maybe eventually we'll all turn into elephants. Of course. Happens all the time.
Darwin's original theory of gradual evolution of species has been shown to completely false. Biologists have no explanation for the Cambrian Explanation, they had to invent punctuated equilibrium instead. Still a bad explanation though . . .
That was a great example of telling the world you don’t understand biology without saying the words, “I don’t understand biology.”
- Evolution does not happen accidentally. Natural selection is not random is how it acts on the genetic variability, in how inherited traits act in its local environment. Once morphological structures are set, evolution can use those structures for different purposes, and then those structures will evolve again. Many animals who evolved to inhabit the same ecological niche, often have the same morphology, for example, many marine animals all converged on the same streamlined shape to better swim in the ocean, such as herrings (fish), dolphins (mammals), and ichthyosaurs (reptiles). Also, Thylacines (marsupials), Tigers, and Wolves (placentals) as the best morphology for land carnivores.
- Elephants evolved already so humans can’t be elephants lol
- You have a misunderstanding of punctuated equilibrium. Stephen J. Gould (a nice Jewish boy) and Niles Eldridge hypothesis is that species stay relatively unchanged for long periods of time, and then when there’s a change in the environment, speciation can happen fairly quickly, but they are still talking about 10’s of thousand to 100,000 or more years, not 6 days lol. There is evidence for this type of speciation, but there is also plenty of evidence for traditional Darwinian speciation as well, for example, horses, whales, and humans where the fossil record has many intermediate forms.
- The Cambrian Explosion may seem like it happened overnight but in reality we now have tons Pre-Cambrian fossils that are invertebrate, soft bodied animals that didn’t fossilize so easily but the Barberton Crater and Warrawoona Group has changed that and now we have fossil evidence. So, life didn’t begin at the Cambrian explosion if that’s what you’re implying. Anyway, there has never been an Hallucigenia or Trilobytes found in Precambrian geological strata which consists only of cnidarians, sponges, worms, and one cell organisms.
True, we haven’t found a direct ancestor for any Cambrian forms yet but how does that substantiate your myth that God created all forms of life in 6 days that all still exist today, even though we have tons of animals that went extinct in the form of fossils and we do have tons of fossils that show transitional forms of tons of animals from the Cambrian on providing evidence and credence to common ancestry of all species. To ignore that kind of evidence is a form of obtuseness.
In your hurry to write a snide response, you apparently missed the part where I said I'm not a young Earther, I just don't think natural selection as a mechanism for evolution holds water, wich relies on accidental mutations to develop into new useful physical features of almost unfathomable complexity.
It is even less likely in light of the fact that evolution did not proceed as Darwin thought, with neat gradual modifications to life forms. The simple fact remains that biologists have no idea why and how the Cambrian explosion occurred.
Too bad these Christians didn't know the Gemara in Zevachim. They could've given three other pshatim. 1. The dinosaurs camped in EY. 2. They brought baby dinosaurs on the Teivah. 3. The dinosaurs swam next to the Teivah with their nose in the Teivah. According to the first pshat, I heard the dinosaur is still around and became a museum director...
Can't you make a point without being downright rude? It says loads about the members of the form of Judaism you claim to represent as well as demonstrating a lack of confidence in your beliefs. Self-confident people see no need to insult and be rude. Real talmidei chachomim and ba'alei middos are not rude.
I dunno, Rabban Gamliel got up to some trash talk in his day. One of my favorite mishnas is when he passive-aggressively asks, "Akiva, where's your sukkah?"
That's not downright rudeness, but yes, I agree, there is some downright rudeness in shas (it seems to me that he has no brain in his skull/I think he was sleeping when he said that). I can't remember if that was said directly to the person. I think the Chavos Yoir has a whole piece explaining it (so it clearly requires explanation) printed at the back of shemiras haloshon. Whether or not the justifications presented work for happy I do not know right now or to be honest really care.
You just keep repeating the same nonsense. There is no "charedi" position on the Ark, b/c charedim - like all religious Jews - don't fixate on it. That is YOUR personal fascination. To the rest of us, its a story in the Torah, yes, but how to understand it is not מעיקרי הדת, there are no mitzvas dependent on it, and whether it happened this way or that way or was simply an allegory is not that important.
As for being "afraid of science" - you're hysterical. Buddy, if you've seen what "science" has told us the past five years alone, you'd know that religion has absolutely nothing to fear from "science". To the contrary, more and more people are waking up every day to realize there is nobody more corrupt and dishonest than the High Priests of "science."
Actually in the past five year, science ignoramuses have woken up to how science is made. Like the proverbial sausage, non-science folks aren’t usually privy to seeing the way it’s made, only the final product. Due to the nature of the medical emergency, the public saw the normal stages of errors and recalculations that go along with scientific discovery. If you don’t “believe” in science, get off your cell phone and refuse the next life saving medical procedure that you need.
Beyond ludicrous. "A cell phone exists, ergo all science is true"?? You may not know this, but the calendar which all Jews use to celebrate Passover is made by Charedi Jews. So are 90% of all tefillin, mezuzas, and sifrei Torah. So therefore, according to your "logic", you have to accept everything from Charedim? This is "rationalism", folks.
And I'm glad you're such a true believer in science. I suppose you accept everything about "transgenderism" and "critical race" theory, because that's all science, too. (And you know its all true, not just because its all so intuitive, but also because the principles behind it were established using the vaunted scientific method of free inquiry and open testing. Not like religion, where you're not allowed to say certain things...)
"Due to the nature of the medical emergency..." - you mean the public emergency that, actually, on second thought, wasn't any more dangerous than the common flu to 98% of the public, so sorry for the inconvenience? And when you talk about the "scientific discovery" that went along with it, do you mean the "vaccines" that did absolutely nothing? Or the ones we were assured were "perfectly safe", and never mind all those people dying (and we'll make sure Twitter censors it so you can't see it, just to make sure")? Is that your God of Science, or do you have something else in mind?
The same "argument" you use every time as NS's pet-sycophant. I've no interest in doing your homework for you. You can go on shutting your eyes and putting your fingers in your ear, the heck I care. You want to try actual argument I'm willing to engage. A refusal to acknowledge reality is not argument.
" I've no interest in doing your homework for you."
It's simple. You make a claim. First, you should make the claim clear. You haven't. Then you should have to back up the claim. You haven't. Polio causes paralysis in < 1% cases. Does that mean it's not dangerous to 99% of the public?
"You want to try actual argument"
You've made a statement that's incoherent. Even without regard to its truth, it doesn't make sense. You should make an actual argument.
For three years, I did do my homework. I checked into the covid deniers claims. Most easily shown false. The rest were rather lame claims.
You're refusal to provide a clear statement of your claim is no proof of its veracity.
"pet-sycophant."
Another easily dismissed claim. I disagreed with RNS in regards to his critique of Rav Zilberstein. That was very recent! Why should I waste my time on your ill presented claims if you make such silly wrong statements like that?
This is pointless, is it not? Believe what you want to believe.
The point of my response to NS was simple: 1) There is no "charedi" position on the Ark, because most people, who have more to their life than animals, do not fixate on it. And 2) the expression "fear of science" looks laughably absurd, in light of the utter nonsense we'll all been told in the name of science in recent years. גמרנו
In 2019- 2020, the Flu killed about 25,000 people in the US. In the previous 5 years it varied from 23,000 to 52,000. SARS Covid 2 (Covid 19) by contrast killed over 385,000 people in 2020. Thats between 7 to 14 times more deaths than the the yearly Flu causes. That’s not more dangerous than the Flu? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1124915/flu-deaths-number-us/
And the death toll in 2021 was worse as the virus got deadlier and a large chunk of the population refused vaccines.
“During the late BA.4/BA.5 period, unvaccinated persons had a higher Covid 19 mortality and infection rate than persons receiving bivalent doses… Among older adults, mortality rates mortality among unvaccinated persons were significantly higher than among those who received a bivalent booster.” https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7206a3.htm
The vaccines did nothing? The data says otherwise. So what should the medical/pharmaceutical community be sorry for? Saving millions of lives?
“All those people dying” from vaccines? WTF are you talking about? How you been listening to Q-Anon? Are you referring to the VAERS website that’s open to the public who have inundated it with unverified complaints that the medical community has to verify. That’s weird that you probably don’t believe the statistics put together by our public health officials and verified by the medical and scientific associations, but you’ll believe conspiracy theories promulgated on the Internet. https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-cdc-covid-vaccine-deaths-910677348223
God of Science. Well I guess that if there is one, he apparently works through laws of nature and natural processes that man’s intellect is able to discover and utilize to improve living standards, quality of life, and longevity through the scientific process. I don’t worship science but I appreciate the good it has done in this world. I don’t wish it upon you but if you got some major desease like cancer, why not eschew medical SCIENCE and just pray it away lol
Wrong. I checked into that claim. I read the hospital policy for filling in cause of death. What you're saying is not true.
To repeat what I just replied to G: "For three years, I did do my homework. I checked into the covid deniers claims. Most easily shown false. The rest were rather lame claims."
Did you even read that report from the Centers for Desease Control on how they came up with the 385,000 figure in 2020, or the 1 million+ total? Nope just a blanket denial without a oz of effort. Science shmience right?
Sounds like you are ok with my Dad having died because selfish jerks like you couldn’t be bothered to follow the science mask up and get vaccinated. A pox on you…
"There is no "charedi" position on the Ark, b/c charedim - like all religious Jews - don't fixate on it."
But if someone were to open their mouths about it, then out come the torches.
"Buddy, if you've seen what "science" has told us the past five years alone...."
You don't like science? I somehow suspect that either you're a complete loon, or someone who relies on science a dozen times before breakfast. (My money is on the latter.)
What torches? Where? Merely for commenting on the Ark story? Go ahead, show us.
And of course I use items from science past, just like you follow the calendar laid down by the original Prushim. Does that make you a Charedi?? Is that an example of the cool, considered "rationalism" of the true believers?
This mendacious argument is constantly repeated, as though using a cellphone proves something about a dinosaur.
My cellphone works, that's all I need. It doesn't work perfectly, bugs are constantly being ironed out, but it works.
The 'science' of dinosaurs can never be reproduced, it is all flying blind.
Give me one case of a scientific breakthrough that was accurate to its details on the first try, without tweaking when brought into the real world. Because if you rely on medicine that has only been proven in theory, without even having been tested on animals, let alone humans, you are in serious trouble.
"The 'science' of dinosaurs can never be reproduced, it is all flying blind. " Huh? The only thing relevant to our purposes is whether there was an age of dinosaurs before man. That is something with which science makes a firm prediction which could be falsified at any point - that dinosaur fossils are always found in different geological layers than are remains of contemporary species such as people and cows. This has been endlessly tested in a zillion locations and confirmed.
That’s my point. Science is trial and error but once a scientific breakthrough or consensus is reached, all further evidence tends to confirm it more. If evidence comes along that conflicts, the theory or product of science is modified and if it doesn’t work sometimes it has to be thrown out. But science is the method, not a body of knowledge, that advanced our civilization, whether it’s agricultural science that relies on evolution, or medicine that relies on evolutionary science, it works. The very same scientific method and rules by which the scientific principles that led to your cell phone were discovered are the same ones that led to our understanding of the history of cosmology, chemistry, and biology.
Nitpick. Hillel was an heir of the "original prushim", as are the Charedim of today. There may have been some natural organic evolution, but charedim today are the direct spiritual heirs of the Prushim then.
Your inability to write precisely does not make me a nitpicker. Next time, don't leave nits lying around. And if you must leave nits, they shouldn't be the size of cockroaches.
"Hillel was an heir of the "original prushim""
And so are you and me. But that doesn't make us the original prushim.
If you want credence, maybe you should admit you made a mistake instead of accusing other of being nitpickers.
The main reason for the dinosaurs at that creationist museum is for the kids, kids love dinosaurs it's a lot cooler to see giant reptiles then another giraffe or an elephant. Just trying to make money, pretty sure they sell a bunch of dinosaurs toys and stuff in thier gift shop.
Can't blame a guy for trying to sell dinosaurs to kids
We are in the sixth mass extinction right now, and it threatens the continuation of human civilization. If regurgitated theological debate and millennia of superstition cause us to deny this horrifying reality and fail to take what action we can, then they are a direct threat to all our lives and must be abandoned in favor of ones that address the real world
I don’t understand why this is so hard to understand. Right from the start the Torah describes a race of “giants on the Earth in those days” which clearly implies these “giants” did not survive...ie became extinct. These “giants” were capable of having relations with the daughters of men. I’ve always believed the Torah is referencing Neanderthals, which are believed to have disappeared during the last Ice Age. The point is, if Neanderthals could become extinct, why not dinosaurs?
It’s so childlike to imagine that the fairy tales told in that book are real. Grow up. That story or any of them have nothing to do with the actual world before the Bronze Age.
What would you know about being a tzaddik? You treat a complete stranger with contempt and snark. You think you’re a tzaddik? You’re a sad excuse for a religious Jew.
Homo sapiens from the same time of Neanderthals, had an average height of 6 feet while Neanderthals were 5.5 feet, so why would they be called Giants?
Neanderthals became extinct about 40,000 years ago, while the end of the Ice Age, which culminated in the younger dryas, which, by the way, is most certainly the cause of the Mabul story existing in all civilizations around the world, was about 12,000 years ago.
Actual “giant” skeletons were discovered in the American west, some of them as tall as 8 or 9 feet.
The actual flood from the flood story was caused by the fountains of the deep opening to let in water from below and the apertures of the sky opening to let in water from above. So it wasn’t melting glaciers in the story.
And even if it (for sake of argument) they were real, how could they have had intercourse with middle eastern women. Did they fly their spaceships around the world?
I’m confused as to what does a hypothetical (pseudoscientific) comet explosion have to do with the debunked giant human skeletons that I said required extraordinary evidence?
It's not a rebuttal at all, let alone a massive one. It's a collection of sources about Torah protecting. I don't at all deny that such sources exist. My claim is that these do not translate into any practical ramifications that charedim accept.
Wow I guess that's all it takes. Just say "it's not a rebuttal" and have your enthusiastic sycophant call the round in your favor.
No need to address the uncomfortable point that your smug, repeated ad nauseum, thesis that Torah protection is a late "mystical" invention of R' Chaim Volozhiner was just utterly debunked (not that anyone with any Torah knowledge needed it; but its nice to have the sources collected). Just revert back to smug "it's not a rebuttal", and the useful idiots will do the rest.
You know, I've always wondered how Slifkin kept his gig going for so long. Here's the secret.
Hey Yakov, do you play on request? Can i borrow you for my blog?
Slifkin's point is clear and no substantive response to it was given, which gives this round to him. I'm not sure why this is not obvious.
The sugiah of השתדלות ובטחון is thousands of years old and is addressed in all religions. There are many opinions on the subject. Slifkin is pointing out inconsistances and no one yet answered that challenge. It would have made sense to me to discuss the subject in general rather then its practice by the charedim. Charedim are just people like everyone else with their contradictions, inconsistences and inability to look at themselves in the mirror. There is nothing new or surprising there but if you look at them in totality at the end of the day it's the best way to live, imo.
Here's a wild idea - why don't you read the IrrationalistMODOXism post in question, see which Slifkin claims he references and how he debunks them, and then let us know who made a "clear point" and who neglected to provide a "substantive response".
Or do you always declare winners in debates based on being impressed by one guy's snarky dismissiveness?
That wasn't his point at all. His point was that it is the position of Judaism that Torah doesn't practically protect. This is obviously false to anybody with a modicum of Torah knowledge.
What you are asking is, how much can I rely on Hashem's help vs. my own hishtadlus? A classic question, but in no way contradicts the obvious view of the Torah that Torah protects.
When people start believing in dinosaurs with a religious zeal and dogma to it...... Amazing how a hypothesis turned into a belief system..... Paleontology is quack science at its best! Pretty convenient to find million or billion year old man on Antarctica......the irony here - from someone who rejects mystical belief, has exchanged it for the quack belief of paleontology!
Unlike the Shamir or the tannim, dinosaurs existed. But I do belief in them with religious zeal. In fact I often pray to them. On secular holidays we light mini volcanos and ask the great T-Rex in the sky to heal our illnesses and eat our enemies. 😆
" Pretty convenient to find million or billion year old man on Antarctica"
Maybe he was a moron who was looking for the edge of the earth, or the secret continents beyond Antarctica covered up by Davos and Stanley Kubrick's film crew. I don't know if people existed a million years ago, but if they did, some of them were idiots.
Paleontology is quack science, it was invented by people with very imaginative imaginations. Throwing around millions or billions of years here or there is quack, there's no basis for that. This whole stream of "science" was invented to try to debunk the narrative of the Bible. Anytime a "new" dinosaur is discovered, we need not wait very long to discover the fraud of it......
Amazing how for some dinosaurs became a dogma and religion as a desperate attempt to disprove the narrative of the Bible. These creative artists are very clever at putting together pieces of bone and feather...... Most specimens in museums are fake, and the "real" ones are enclosed in glass...... Believing in dinosaurs is like believing that the moon landing didn't happen...... S0 many religious believers of dinosaurs with a zeal to it - wonder why?!
"This whole stream of "science" was invented to try to debunk the narrative of the Bible."
Actually, it was invented by deeply religious people, in order to explain why different layers of rock contain the remains of different types of animals.
Somehow they only find dinosaur bones in places where no one is there to verify if they are legit..... pretty shocking that all these "rationalists" buy into something so far fetched and rife with fraud.....so these rock formations are all of sudden bones.... because radio isotopes indicate that the rocks are very old?! Is there frozen marrow in these bones?! This whole field of science is very shady and I mean very shady!
"Somehow they only find dinosaur bones in places where no one is there to verify if they are legit....."
You can go yourself to any of thousands of places in the world where there are fossils, and you'll see for yourself that there are distinct types of animal life in each layer of rock.
"the ark did not need to house full size T-rexes or sauropods, but only various smaller kinds of dinosaurs from which these developed"
In other words, evolution!
Sort of. They admit to change with modifications within what they call kinds. So they admit that Dogs, wolves, coyotes are related but not cats and bears.
While wolves and foxes diverged 12 million years ago, they think it happened since Noah’s ark like what 4000 years ago.
Like I said, the timeline still doesn't work out. I'm not a young Earther, just not crazy about natural selection.
Do you think just stating your opinion makes you sound authoritative? Just stating, “the timeline doesn’t work out” isn’t an argument. What does that even mean? On what evidence do you base your statement on?
That makes sense in a way - natural selection really can't explain speciation. The timeline still doesn't work, of course.
Natural Selection is the only thing that explains speciation.
Nah, God also might, actually.
Yes, the human body just evolved accidentally. Maybe eventually we'll all turn into elephants. Of course. Happens all the time.
Darwin's original theory of gradual evolution of species has been shown to completely false. Biologists have no explanation for the Cambrian Explanation, they had to invent punctuated equilibrium instead. Still a bad explanation though . . .
That was a great example of telling the world you don’t understand biology without saying the words, “I don’t understand biology.”
- Evolution does not happen accidentally. Natural selection is not random is how it acts on the genetic variability, in how inherited traits act in its local environment. Once morphological structures are set, evolution can use those structures for different purposes, and then those structures will evolve again. Many animals who evolved to inhabit the same ecological niche, often have the same morphology, for example, many marine animals all converged on the same streamlined shape to better swim in the ocean, such as herrings (fish), dolphins (mammals), and ichthyosaurs (reptiles). Also, Thylacines (marsupials), Tigers, and Wolves (placentals) as the best morphology for land carnivores.
- Elephants evolved already so humans can’t be elephants lol
- You have a misunderstanding of punctuated equilibrium. Stephen J. Gould (a nice Jewish boy) and Niles Eldridge hypothesis is that species stay relatively unchanged for long periods of time, and then when there’s a change in the environment, speciation can happen fairly quickly, but they are still talking about 10’s of thousand to 100,000 or more years, not 6 days lol. There is evidence for this type of speciation, but there is also plenty of evidence for traditional Darwinian speciation as well, for example, horses, whales, and humans where the fossil record has many intermediate forms.
- The Cambrian Explosion may seem like it happened overnight but in reality we now have tons Pre-Cambrian fossils that are invertebrate, soft bodied animals that didn’t fossilize so easily but the Barberton Crater and Warrawoona Group has changed that and now we have fossil evidence. So, life didn’t begin at the Cambrian explosion if that’s what you’re implying. Anyway, there has never been an Hallucigenia or Trilobytes found in Precambrian geological strata which consists only of cnidarians, sponges, worms, and one cell organisms.
True, we haven’t found a direct ancestor for any Cambrian forms yet but how does that substantiate your myth that God created all forms of life in 6 days that all still exist today, even though we have tons of animals that went extinct in the form of fossils and we do have tons of fossils that show transitional forms of tons of animals from the Cambrian on providing evidence and credence to common ancestry of all species. To ignore that kind of evidence is a form of obtuseness.
In your hurry to write a snide response, you apparently missed the part where I said I'm not a young Earther, I just don't think natural selection as a mechanism for evolution holds water, wich relies on accidental mutations to develop into new useful physical features of almost unfathomable complexity.
It is even less likely in light of the fact that evolution did not proceed as Darwin thought, with neat gradual modifications to life forms. The simple fact remains that biologists have no idea why and how the Cambrian explosion occurred.
Too bad these Christians didn't know the Gemara in Zevachim. They could've given three other pshatim. 1. The dinosaurs camped in EY. 2. They brought baby dinosaurs on the Teivah. 3. The dinosaurs swam next to the Teivah with their nose in the Teivah. According to the first pshat, I heard the dinosaur is still around and became a museum director...
Can't you make a point without being downright rude? It says loads about the members of the form of Judaism you claim to represent as well as demonstrating a lack of confidence in your beliefs. Self-confident people see no need to insult and be rude. Real talmidei chachomim and ba'alei middos are not rude.
I dunno, Rabban Gamliel got up to some trash talk in his day. One of my favorite mishnas is when he passive-aggressively asks, "Akiva, where's your sukkah?"
That's not downright rudeness, but yes, I agree, there is some downright rudeness in shas (it seems to me that he has no brain in his skull/I think he was sleeping when he said that). I can't remember if that was said directly to the person. I think the Chavos Yoir has a whole piece explaining it (so it clearly requires explanation) printed at the back of shemiras haloshon. Whether or not the justifications presented work for happy I do not know right now or to be honest really care.
There's also the time the staff of Reish Galuta tried to murder Rav Sheshet.
Completely different matter.
Do you have a sense of humor?
I liked the joke at the end...well delivered!.
You just keep repeating the same nonsense. There is no "charedi" position on the Ark, b/c charedim - like all religious Jews - don't fixate on it. That is YOUR personal fascination. To the rest of us, its a story in the Torah, yes, but how to understand it is not מעיקרי הדת, there are no mitzvas dependent on it, and whether it happened this way or that way or was simply an allegory is not that important.
As for being "afraid of science" - you're hysterical. Buddy, if you've seen what "science" has told us the past five years alone, you'd know that religion has absolutely nothing to fear from "science". To the contrary, more and more people are waking up every day to realize there is nobody more corrupt and dishonest than the High Priests of "science."
Actually in the past five year, science ignoramuses have woken up to how science is made. Like the proverbial sausage, non-science folks aren’t usually privy to seeing the way it’s made, only the final product. Due to the nature of the medical emergency, the public saw the normal stages of errors and recalculations that go along with scientific discovery. If you don’t “believe” in science, get off your cell phone and refuse the next life saving medical procedure that you need.
Beyond ludicrous. "A cell phone exists, ergo all science is true"?? You may not know this, but the calendar which all Jews use to celebrate Passover is made by Charedi Jews. So are 90% of all tefillin, mezuzas, and sifrei Torah. So therefore, according to your "logic", you have to accept everything from Charedim? This is "rationalism", folks.
And I'm glad you're such a true believer in science. I suppose you accept everything about "transgenderism" and "critical race" theory, because that's all science, too. (And you know its all true, not just because its all so intuitive, but also because the principles behind it were established using the vaunted scientific method of free inquiry and open testing. Not like religion, where you're not allowed to say certain things...)
You really need to stop watching Fox.
"Due to the nature of the medical emergency..." - you mean the public emergency that, actually, on second thought, wasn't any more dangerous than the common flu to 98% of the public, so sorry for the inconvenience? And when you talk about the "scientific discovery" that went along with it, do you mean the "vaccines" that did absolutely nothing? Or the ones we were assured were "perfectly safe", and never mind all those people dying (and we'll make sure Twitter censors it so you can't see it, just to make sure")? Is that your God of Science, or do you have something else in mind?
"wasn't any more dangerous than the common flu to 98% of the public"
Source? Figures? Heck, forget about sources and figures, why not write a sentence that makes sense?
"the "vaccines" that did absolutely nothing"
Source? Figures?
"and never mind all those people dying"
Source? Figures?
You say "science", but you don't know it.
The same "argument" you use every time as NS's pet-sycophant. I've no interest in doing your homework for you. You can go on shutting your eyes and putting your fingers in your ear, the heck I care. You want to try actual argument I'm willing to engage. A refusal to acknowledge reality is not argument.
Resorting to ad hominem demonstrates the fallacy of your argument.
" I've no interest in doing your homework for you."
It's simple. You make a claim. First, you should make the claim clear. You haven't. Then you should have to back up the claim. You haven't. Polio causes paralysis in < 1% cases. Does that mean it's not dangerous to 99% of the public?
"You want to try actual argument"
You've made a statement that's incoherent. Even without regard to its truth, it doesn't make sense. You should make an actual argument.
For three years, I did do my homework. I checked into the covid deniers claims. Most easily shown false. The rest were rather lame claims.
You're refusal to provide a clear statement of your claim is no proof of its veracity.
"pet-sycophant."
Another easily dismissed claim. I disagreed with RNS in regards to his critique of Rav Zilberstein. That was very recent! Why should I waste my time on your ill presented claims if you make such silly wrong statements like that?
This is pointless, is it not? Believe what you want to believe.
The point of my response to NS was simple: 1) There is no "charedi" position on the Ark, because most people, who have more to their life than animals, do not fixate on it. And 2) the expression "fear of science" looks laughably absurd, in light of the utter nonsense we'll all been told in the name of science in recent years. גמרנו
Hi Garvin,
In 2019- 2020, the Flu killed about 25,000 people in the US. In the previous 5 years it varied from 23,000 to 52,000. SARS Covid 2 (Covid 19) by contrast killed over 385,000 people in 2020. Thats between 7 to 14 times more deaths than the the yearly Flu causes. That’s not more dangerous than the Flu? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1124915/flu-deaths-number-us/
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/podcasts/2022/20220107/20220107.htm
And the death toll in 2021 was worse as the virus got deadlier and a large chunk of the population refused vaccines.
“During the late BA.4/BA.5 period, unvaccinated persons had a higher Covid 19 mortality and infection rate than persons receiving bivalent doses… Among older adults, mortality rates mortality among unvaccinated persons were significantly higher than among those who received a bivalent booster.” https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7206a3.htm
The vaccines did nothing? The data says otherwise. So what should the medical/pharmaceutical community be sorry for? Saving millions of lives?
“All those people dying” from vaccines? WTF are you talking about? How you been listening to Q-Anon? Are you referring to the VAERS website that’s open to the public who have inundated it with unverified complaints that the medical community has to verify. That’s weird that you probably don’t believe the statistics put together by our public health officials and verified by the medical and scientific associations, but you’ll believe conspiracy theories promulgated on the Internet. https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-cdc-covid-vaccine-deaths-910677348223
https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2023-02-09-aha-ama-and-ana-remind-americans-get-covid-19-vaccine-updated-booster
God of Science. Well I guess that if there is one, he apparently works through laws of nature and natural processes that man’s intellect is able to discover and utilize to improve living standards, quality of life, and longevity through the scientific process. I don’t worship science but I appreciate the good it has done in this world. I don’t wish it upon you but if you got some major desease like cancer, why not eschew medical SCIENCE and just pray it away lol
Do you really, honestly, think I'm going to waste m time arguing about this with you?
You seem to be arguing quite a lot. Maybe the reason you don’t want to argue with me is because you have no substantial rebuttal.
I don't want to argue with you, but I'm arguing quite a lot.
Thanks for the laugh, always appreciated!
Total bunk! Anyone who died in 2020 was automatically assigned on their death certificate reason for death COVID-19 !!!!!!!!!!!!
Wrong. I checked into that claim. I read the hospital policy for filling in cause of death. What you're saying is not true.
To repeat what I just replied to G: "For three years, I did do my homework. I checked into the covid deniers claims. Most easily shown false. The rest were rather lame claims."
Did you even read that report from the Centers for Desease Control on how they came up with the 385,000 figure in 2020, or the 1 million+ total? Nope just a blanket denial without a oz of effort. Science shmience right?
Where do you get that assertion from?
Sounds like you are ok with my Dad having died because selfish jerks like you couldn’t be bothered to follow the science mask up and get vaccinated. A pox on you…
"There is no "charedi" position on the Ark, b/c charedim - like all religious Jews - don't fixate on it."
But if someone were to open their mouths about it, then out come the torches.
"Buddy, if you've seen what "science" has told us the past five years alone...."
You don't like science? I somehow suspect that either you're a complete loon, or someone who relies on science a dozen times before breakfast. (My money is on the latter.)
What torches? Where? Merely for commenting on the Ark story? Go ahead, show us.
And of course I use items from science past, just like you follow the calendar laid down by the original Prushim. Does that make you a Charedi?? Is that an example of the cool, considered "rationalism" of the true believers?
This mendacious argument is constantly repeated, as though using a cellphone proves something about a dinosaur.
My cellphone works, that's all I need. It doesn't work perfectly, bugs are constantly being ironed out, but it works.
The 'science' of dinosaurs can never be reproduced, it is all flying blind.
Give me one case of a scientific breakthrough that was accurate to its details on the first try, without tweaking when brought into the real world. Because if you rely on medicine that has only been proven in theory, without even having been tested on animals, let alone humans, you are in serious trouble.
"The 'science' of dinosaurs can never be reproduced, it is all flying blind. " Huh? The only thing relevant to our purposes is whether there was an age of dinosaurs before man. That is something with which science makes a firm prediction which could be falsified at any point - that dinosaur fossils are always found in different geological layers than are remains of contemporary species such as people and cows. This has been endlessly tested in a zillion locations and confirmed.
"Endlessly tested"!!!
By the same group of frauds over and over?!
It must be a strange world some people inhabit, where 'reproduced' is equal to 'falsified'.
What else goes on there?
I just gave you concrete evidence that dinosaurs lived before people. I guess you're incapable of conceding that.
That’s my point. Science is trial and error but once a scientific breakthrough or consensus is reached, all further evidence tends to confirm it more. If evidence comes along that conflicts, the theory or product of science is modified and if it doesn’t work sometimes it has to be thrown out. But science is the method, not a body of knowledge, that advanced our civilization, whether it’s agricultural science that relies on evolution, or medicine that relies on evolutionary science, it works. The very same scientific method and rules by which the scientific principles that led to your cell phone were discovered are the same ones that led to our understanding of the history of cosmology, chemistry, and biology.
" the calendar laid down by the original Prushim."
The original Prushim existed centuries before the establishment of the pre-calculated calendar. You're off by about 500 years.
Maybe you shouldn't have used the word "original".
Nitpick. Hillel was an heir of the "original prushim", as are the Charedim of today. There may have been some natural organic evolution, but charedim today are the direct spiritual heirs of the Prushim then.
"Nitpick."
Your inability to write precisely does not make me a nitpicker. Next time, don't leave nits lying around. And if you must leave nits, they shouldn't be the size of cockroaches.
"Hillel was an heir of the "original prushim""
And so are you and me. But that doesn't make us the original prushim.
If you want credence, maybe you should admit you made a mistake instead of accusing other of being nitpickers.
@Gavin,
I would suggest that Charedim are a reformation of what historical Jewish practice was.
The word you are looking for is evolution.
"no species of animal ever goes extinct, because providence does not allow for it."
I saw this at the Cincinnati Zoo a few years ago:
https://cincinnatizoo.org/plan-your-visit/exhibits/passenger-pigeon-memorial/
OF COURSE there were (avian) dinosaurs on the Ark! גם מעוף השמים שבעה שבעה זכר ונקבה לחיות זרע על פני כל הארץ
The main reason for the dinosaurs at that creationist museum is for the kids, kids love dinosaurs it's a lot cooler to see giant reptiles then another giraffe or an elephant. Just trying to make money, pretty sure they sell a bunch of dinosaurs toys and stuff in thier gift shop.
Can't blame a guy for trying to sell dinosaurs to kids
Who doesn't love dinosaurs!
People with allergies.
We are in the sixth mass extinction right now, and it threatens the continuation of human civilization. If regurgitated theological debate and millennia of superstition cause us to deny this horrifying reality and fail to take what action we can, then they are a direct threat to all our lives and must be abandoned in favor of ones that address the real world
I don’t understand why this is so hard to understand. Right from the start the Torah describes a race of “giants on the Earth in those days” which clearly implies these “giants” did not survive...ie became extinct. These “giants” were capable of having relations with the daughters of men. I’ve always believed the Torah is referencing Neanderthals, which are believed to have disappeared during the last Ice Age. The point is, if Neanderthals could become extinct, why not dinosaurs?
It’s so childlike to imagine that the fairy tales told in that book are real. Grow up. That story or any of them have nothing to do with the actual world before the Bronze Age.
Spoken like a real tzaddik
What would you know about being a tzaddik? You treat a complete stranger with contempt and snark. You think you’re a tzaddik? You’re a sad excuse for a religious Jew.
I never said I was a religious Jew. So religious Jews are supposed to be dropping f-bombs? Nice.
A couple of comments.
Homo sapiens from the same time of Neanderthals, had an average height of 6 feet while Neanderthals were 5.5 feet, so why would they be called Giants?
Neanderthals became extinct about 40,000 years ago, while the end of the Ice Age, which culminated in the younger dryas, which, by the way, is most certainly the cause of the Mabul story existing in all civilizations around the world, was about 12,000 years ago.
Actual “giant” skeletons were discovered in the American west, some of them as tall as 8 or 9 feet.
The actual flood from the flood story was caused by the fountains of the deep opening to let in water from below and the apertures of the sky opening to let in water from above. So it wasn’t melting glaciers in the story.
And the giant skeleton story is a hoax https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/10/04/fact-check-false-claim-giant-human-skeletons-were-discovered-ohio/8126412001/
And even if it (for sake of argument) they were real, how could they have had intercourse with middle eastern women. Did they fly their spaceships around the world?
I was referring to Lovelock cave in Nevada. But who knows what’s true.
What’s true is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Not necessarily. There is extraordinary evidence for the younger dryas impact hypothesis, but it’s still an hypothesis.
If evidence isn’t accepted by those in charge, in every society, and every discipline, then it makes no difference if it’s ordinary or extraordinary.
I’m confused as to what does a hypothetical (pseudoscientific) comet explosion have to do with the debunked giant human skeletons that I said required extraordinary evidence?
Also, kids tend to be fascinated with dinosaurs. #marketing
I imagine the creationist museum also didn't have Og Melech Habashan riding on the roof.
Woah, they just posted a massive rebuttal to Slifkin's post on torah protecting on Irrationalist Modoxism. They also reference this post at the end.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
They're a little late, but I guess better late than never.
It's not a rebuttal at all, let alone a massive one. It's a collection of sources about Torah protecting. I don't at all deny that such sources exist. My claim is that these do not translate into any practical ramifications that charedim accept.
Most of those sources are indeed practical and the chareidim treat them practically.
This round goes to Slifkin. Tuche!
That's why it's important to know how to spell. So that you don't embarrass yourself by mistakenly screaming potty words in public.
Spelling is important, but it's more important to be intellectually honest.
Wow I guess that's all it takes. Just say "it's not a rebuttal" and have your enthusiastic sycophant call the round in your favor.
No need to address the uncomfortable point that your smug, repeated ad nauseum, thesis that Torah protection is a late "mystical" invention of R' Chaim Volozhiner was just utterly debunked (not that anyone with any Torah knowledge needed it; but its nice to have the sources collected). Just revert back to smug "it's not a rebuttal", and the useful idiots will do the rest.
You know, I've always wondered how Slifkin kept his gig going for so long. Here's the secret.
Hey Yakov, do you play on request? Can i borrow you for my blog?
Slifkin's point is clear and no substantive response to it was given, which gives this round to him. I'm not sure why this is not obvious.
The sugiah of השתדלות ובטחון is thousands of years old and is addressed in all religions. There are many opinions on the subject. Slifkin is pointing out inconsistances and no one yet answered that challenge. It would have made sense to me to discuss the subject in general rather then its practice by the charedim. Charedim are just people like everyone else with their contradictions, inconsistences and inability to look at themselves in the mirror. There is nothing new or surprising there but if you look at them in totality at the end of the day it's the best way to live, imo.
Here's a wild idea - why don't you read the IrrationalistMODOXism post in question, see which Slifkin claims he references and how he debunks them, and then let us know who made a "clear point" and who neglected to provide a "substantive response".
Or do you always declare winners in debates based on being impressed by one guy's snarky dismissiveness?
That wasn't his point at all. His point was that it is the position of Judaism that Torah doesn't practically protect. This is obviously false to anybody with a modicum of Torah knowledge.
What you are asking is, how much can I rely on Hashem's help vs. my own hishtadlus? A classic question, but in no way contradicts the obvious view of the Torah that Torah protects.
When people start believing in dinosaurs with a religious zeal and dogma to it...... Amazing how a hypothesis turned into a belief system..... Paleontology is quack science at its best! Pretty convenient to find million or billion year old man on Antarctica......the irony here - from someone who rejects mystical belief, has exchanged it for the quack belief of paleontology!
Unlike the Shamir or the tannim, dinosaurs existed. But I do belief in them with religious zeal. In fact I often pray to them. On secular holidays we light mini volcanos and ask the great T-Rex in the sky to heal our illnesses and eat our enemies. 😆
"Paleontology is quack science at its best!"
Quack is a term used for a medical charlatan.
" Pretty convenient to find million or billion year old man on Antarctica"
Maybe he was a moron who was looking for the edge of the earth, or the secret continents beyond Antarctica covered up by Davos and Stanley Kubrick's film crew. I don't know if people existed a million years ago, but if they did, some of them were idiots.
Paleontology is quack science, it was invented by people with very imaginative imaginations. Throwing around millions or billions of years here or there is quack, there's no basis for that. This whole stream of "science" was invented to try to debunk the narrative of the Bible. Anytime a "new" dinosaur is discovered, we need not wait very long to discover the fraud of it......
Amazing how for some dinosaurs became a dogma and religion as a desperate attempt to disprove the narrative of the Bible. These creative artists are very clever at putting together pieces of bone and feather...... Most specimens in museums are fake, and the "real" ones are enclosed in glass...... Believing in dinosaurs is like believing that the moon landing didn't happen...... S0 many religious believers of dinosaurs with a zeal to it - wonder why?!
"This whole stream of "science" was invented to try to debunk the narrative of the Bible."
Actually, it was invented by deeply religious people, in order to explain why different layers of rock contain the remains of different types of animals.
Source?
Can't you do your own homework?
Those early geologists and paleontologists weren’t religious Jews so they don’t count. 😂
Hear o Israel, T-Rex is the lord, T-Rex is one. 🦖🧎♂️
Natan what's a "yeshivah gedola" and "maggid shiur"?
Can't you finally complete your transition and leave all your chareidi lingo behind you?
Somehow they only find dinosaur bones in places where no one is there to verify if they are legit..... pretty shocking that all these "rationalists" buy into something so far fetched and rife with fraud.....so these rock formations are all of sudden bones.... because radio isotopes indicate that the rocks are very old?! Is there frozen marrow in these bones?! This whole field of science is very shady and I mean very shady!
"Somehow they only find dinosaur bones in places where no one is there to verify if they are legit....."
You can go yourself to any of thousands of places in the world where there are fossils, and you'll see for yourself that there are distinct types of animal life in each layer of rock.
And if he finds a dinosaur bone in the Miocene or Paleozoic strata, he can fly to Stockholm to pick up his Nobel Prize.