I think Noson and most of the commenters are missing an important point. Divre Chazal, constitutes Torah Sh'Baal Peh. That means it is guidelines, not an exact code of law or exact instructions. A talmid chochom, is a person who has absorbed a vast knowledge and understanding of Torah Sh'bichsav and Torah Sh'Baal Peh. As such his OPINIONS have credibility when making a decision in Halacha or offering advice. When an individual asks a talmid chochom for a psak, he is bound to listen and do what he was told. Often there is a consensus of the same opinion rendered by numerous talmidei chachomim on the same question. In that case a MINHAG of how the Jewish community acts could be established. However if an individual asks his Rav the same question and gets a different answer in his specific case, he must listen to his rav.
The entire issue of learning full time or leaving full time learning in our day and age has a certain consensus of great talmidei chachomim, who are fully aware of everything written in Avos, Talmud, all Chazal, Rishonim and Acharonim. Their opinions on this matter are significant, not the individual nit-picking opinion of a brilliant zoologist, who became embittered after he was shafted by some of these talmidei chachomim (but far from all). Unfortunately, by becoming so embittered, he himself has given credence to his opponents, who now say, "You see, were right about him in our original condemnation. His reactions and turning away have proved we were right about him all along!"
It is my understanding that the Kollel concept since the end of WWII has been very beneficial in general for Klal Yisroel, but it is not perfect for every individual. The Holocaust heavily degraded Torah Knowledge in the world and it had to be restored quickly. Sort of like a person who was terribly injured in an accident, you first work on keeping him alive, then you work on his rehab; you do not worry about where the money to accomplish these things will come from. Once he's on his feet and recovered to a certain level, he can get back to work. This is happening, many former kollel fellows are becoming millionaires and billionaires. Lakewood is slowly but surely becoming a rich city. Frum Jews have in recent times dominated the diamond business, now they are taking over the nursing home business, as well as many other real estate interests.
I have lots of problems with people not keeping Mishnayos in Avos.
For example, אל תהיו כעבדים המשמשים את הרב על מנת לקבל פרס.
Or, how about this one אל תרבה שיחה עם אשה, באשתו אמרו קל וחומר באשת חבירו. Does it bother you when you see couples chatting easily with each other? When a couple is walking in the street and the husband and wife are shmoozing? How could a teaching of Chazal be forgotten like that?
Tell the truth. Chazal is not your problem. You don't care whether they listen to Chazal or not. You don't have a 'job' (using the word as liberally as possible) because of Chazal, and Chazal's injunctions are only helpful suggestions to you.
No, I am not. I am not bothered by people talking to their wives or not going to college either.
I am bothered by people cherry-picking their sources, with a dishonest claim. The sources are not the basis of their beliefs, their beliefs were based on their secular nature. The sources are the 'heter' and mostly misunderstood.
Orthodox Jews who aren't Chassidic also don't follow the rule from Pirkei Avos to get married at 18. So, we now have three statements from Pirkei Avos that need to be addressed: talking excessively with a woman, even one's own wife, learning Gemara before 15, and not marrying at 18.
I don't always keep up with all comments in all posts, so I may have missed comments on an earlier post that made a similar point to my comment here.
That said, the biur halacha says that this applies to the klal and not to yechidim. Which doesn't contradict the point of my comment. So I'm not actually sure what you're driving at with the reference to the Bi"H.
The intellectual cowardice and dishonesty you described a while back WRT dismissing texts which do not agree with fashion in Charedi circles seems to extend to actively corrupting Torah.
You are singing to the choir. How about highlighting faults in DL community. The most obvious is modesty i.e. mingling of sexs, nigiah, immodest dress. This single failing has been the total ruin of all communities except for chareidim. So certainly chareidim have problems - but this factor alone requires any fully observant Jew to recognize that the chareidim alone hold up these Torah true values that have been abandoned and lost by all other communities.
Yes you are right - all the things that you mentioned are serious problems with some members of the DL community, and educators in the DL are constantly trying to find ways to get members of the community to take these (and other) mitzvot more seriously.
However, I am not aware of any books published in the DL world where they deliberately sensor or modify the words of Chazal in order to justify or encourage this forbidden behaviour. Could you please give an example.
There is a big difference between aveirot which are common within a community, and opposed by the leadership compared to a lifestyle which is frowned upon by Chazal, yet encouraged by the leadership in a community.
"However, I am not aware of any books published in the DL world where they deliberately sensor or modify the words of Chazal in order to justify or encourage this forbidden behaviour. Could you please give an example."
There are thousands of examples (and hundreds from this blog itself), of Modern Orthodox leaders openly distorting the Torah in attempt to justify deviations from it, since this is precisely what secularist Modern Orthodoxy is about.
Sorry, Rabbi Lamm, Rabbi Riskin, and Rabbi Dr Slifkin are mainstream Modern Orthodox. Their distortions of Torah are literally the fabric that mainstream secularist Modern Orthodoxy is made of.
The topic of this blog is to fight chareidim. Fights are two sided, you know.
Look, maybe you have a different definition of MO that doesn't include people like Rabbi Riskin. But you can't deny he is major personality in the movement, and there are hundreds of rabbis like him. What about Rabbi Mirvis who has pushed for teaching LGBTQ in Jewish schools? What about the countless academics who embrace Biblical Criticism and the Documentary Hypothesis? What about the many rabbis who approve of coed schools?
These are not "in the past", they are very much the present and future of mainstream Modern Orthodoxy. If you exclude all this from MO, your definition of Modern Orthodoxy is narrow indeed!
Richie, you really seem out of your element here. You look like a rightwing MODOX student who naively thinks that most MODOX people are like him and is perplexed about what people have against MODOXism. The facts, as hgl is pointing out, are not your side. Yes, there are good MODOX people out there. R' Hershel Shachter is one of them. But R' Hershel Shachter likely has more in common with baalebatish Charedim in America than he does to many of the MODOX positions. Surely you know about the Artuz Sheva study in Israel or the Nishma study in the US that show that the majority of MODOX people feel charitable towards allowing women rabbis, permissive attitudes towards LGBTRSTUV+, regularly miss tefilos and many other things? Again, there are plenty of good MODOX people. No one is denying that. Just people find it extremely ironic that Natan is obsessively consumed about all the terrible infractions of Charedi society, yet the glaring overwhelming lack of commitment to Judaism which is so prevalent in the circles that he belongs is of no concern at all.
You also seem like a newcomer here and are unaware of the insidious purpose of this blog, namely, to besmirch those attempting to adhere to traditional Judaism to the best of their ability.
And saying, "Oh, go read that book by some young and relatively obscure rightwing MODOX rabbi" is a pretty ridiculous response!
Rabbi Slifkin writes Blogs, in general, about ideas.
You seem to want to focus on people and on communities in Judaism nowadays and which communities are following traditional Judaism and which are not.
The beauty of Rabbi Slifkin (and I'm not anyone has necessarily put the word beauty and Rabbi Slifkin in the same sentence in this Blog before) is that he rises above commenting on the characters in the current times we live in. And is focused on ideas and how they have been treated over the centuries.
"...he rises above commenting on the characters in the current times we live in."
Let's see if this statement is remotely accurate.
This post is about the devious censorship of Feldheim publishers, and by extension the entire chareidi community that has "erased a teaching of Chazal from Judaism".
The previous post was about - you guessed it- "the chareidi world".
The post before that was about "average yeshivish/charedi person"
And so on and so on. As you see, 95% of his content is attacks on the chareidi community or chareidi ideology. In that respect, it is the mirror image of what Mecharker and myself engage in, which is attacking secularist Modern Orthodox ideology (and rightfully so). If we bring up individuals, it is the same way Slifkin does, as examples of the broader point.
If I understand you correctly, you claim that disregard of some miztvot by some members of a community (against the values of the community) is worse than distorting or censoring or distorting the Torah by the LEADERSHIP of a community.
You are judging the DL community by the "blatant transgressions of open sins" of some of the members of the community - against the values that they are taught in school.
This post is judging the Haredi community by the distortion of Torah by Rabbis and publishers in the community.
Do you see a difference?
The DL community is spending a lot of effort trying to combat "blatant transgressions of open sins" of many people who identify with the community.
What is the Haredi community doing to combat open disregard for the Torah as shown in this blog post?
We must also mention the problems in the Muslim community of in-growing toe-nails and in the Christian communities the problems of not recycling Coca Cola cans, particularly amongst the Catholics.
Modesty in the Israeli Charedi community means that that you can't mention breast cancer in public health messaging. It also means that that you can't call the domestic abuse hotline with a kosher phone. And of course among the Chassidim it means that women can't drive or for many of them, grow their hair at all on pain of expulsion from the community. Even the more "liberal" Charedim in American won't allow totally tzanua pictures of frum women to be published even when these women are marketing the businesses they run to support their husbands in learning. And when it comes to true sexual sins such as sexual abuse, suddenly nothing is done and we are sinners and we need to accept their teshuva even when no teshuva has been done. No, that is not anything to emulate.
Sexual abuse in the Orthodox community (and generally) became an important topic for me after a family member of a friend was raped by a Rabbi and the community just ignored it for years and kept the Rabbi in his position until the case was reported in the press. That said, I have posted two series of guests posts on this blog having nothing to do with sexual abuse. Go back to the pets post to find my comments having nothing to do with sexual abuse.
Ah yes, the standard response to any perceived criticism no matter -or especially - if it's true. Rabid scattershot attack to protect the ego and the Charedi sense of superiority.
I'm surprised NS hasn't reposted this letter from the Baal Hafla'ah criticizing the aversion to work among the children of Rabbonim in Europe.
It sounds like he is literally writing for today. He also completely contradicts the concept of "Hashem will decree and I'll just do the bare minimum."
"And as far as I am concerned, the current generation’s practice and custom, which is grounded in haughtiness, is evil; which is that most of the members of our nation do not want to teach a craft to their children, saying – with haughtiness and pride – “A trade is a great embarrassment to us.” Only involvement with business and sales, like shopkeepers, is honorable and becoming in their hearts. But ultimately, when they are unsuccessful in business due to bad luck – because there is a concept of luck among the Jewish people as I mentioned above — at that point they have no food, and transgress many sins, as the sages said “R’ Yehuda says: He who does not teach his son a trade, it is as though he has taught him the ways of robbery.” In other words, according to R’ Yehuda, even if he teaches him business – that is buying and selling goods - it is also as though he has taught him the ways of robbery. This is because sometimes he will not have any business to engage in, and he will then set himself up and engage in thievery – real work, making use of clever hands. Some of them engage in flattery of others and prostrate themselves for a cheap coin or loaf of bread; some openly steal and become thieves in the literal sense; some steal on the sly from Jews and non-Jews; some desecrate the Name of G-d amongst the gentiles due to the greatly disgusting acts in which they engage which damage the nations. This results in the gentiles saying “These are G-d’s people who have come out from his land; there is no disgusting behavior in which they are not well schooled, neither is there any trickery in which they are not expert, nor any forgery of which they lack knowledge”. This reaches the point that the gentiles say that the Talmud that the Jews teach their children is nothing but cleverness and slick ways to trick people.
Why should the gentiles say that Jews are swindlers who behave disgustingly? And why do they curse G-d’s Torah? All because you have looked upon the work of your hands as contemptible and disparaged those who engage in a craft.
And even more so do I feel anger towards those Torah scholars who do not want to teach their children a trade, and instead only Torah. They rely on the presumption that their children will be Rabbis or Judges, but ultimately many do not become learned enough in Torah to the point of becoming Halachic decisors among the Jews, and they end up “neither here nor there,” becoming schoolteachers. And as the number of those who hold of this approach increases, there end up being more schoolteachers than students, and as a result, these “schoolteachers” cannot even bring in enough for half of their household expenses, their households lack basic food and clothing, and consequently they cannot even engage in their holy work faithfully."
First of all, you need to brush up on your history. The author of the obscure Sefer Habris was not the Baal Haflaah!
Secondly, ראיה לסתור. Just like the Kesef Mishna writes about the Rambam, the minhag haolam of the Gedolim of that time is a way stronger ראיה than the opinions of this obscure rabbi.
And no, it's not "minhag gedolim", it's sociological/cultural interia. No one ever paskened that all frum people in EY shouldn't work; it was a policy to exempt 400 yeshiva guys in the 1950's from joining the army that metastisized into the greater chareidi society during the following decades. Why do think the American yeshiva world looks so different?
What do you think a minhag is? It's a sociological phenomenon that is not necessarily "paskened" in any sefer. But if all the Torah scholars are doing it (as he says), it's a pretty strong proof. You think these sociological things are just random? No, there is an obvious reason why the policy of kollel in EY continued. Because the alternative there was joining the secular army. Society was and still is run by people like Slifkin, and worse, who want to destroy the chareidi community. And that is why the American yeshiva world looks different.
In the evolutionary struggle for survival charedim are more fit. It's very surprising that an avowed evolutionist doesn't see it. At the end of the day it is what it is and all the actions of an individual or a society should be be examined in this light. Is morality evolutionary beneficial? What is morality from the evolutionary standpoint? These questions are never asked and no comprehensvie approach to the issue is ever atempted, instead cases of charedi malfeasance are regurgitated without EVER addressing the evolutionary mechanisms behind them and of Judaism as a whole from its apprarance to this very day.
Regardless, one thing is clear that from the evolutionary perspectve the charedim have won the day, but the evolution never stops and they will have to keep adapting to continue surviving.
DL and MO are losing the evolutionary struggle. Why all their PHDs, who are steeped in modern science, cannot see it?
Unfortunately, extremism is often a sign of lack of maturity, where people have not really developed emotionally past their mid-teens.
As one matures beyond that stage, one starts to discover that life is not divided into good and bad.
This challenge of discovery as one matures is not new. In fact, human nature doesn't really change over the centuries. And so these debates have continued for millenia and will continue.
I'm right and you're wrong. Instead, try thinking "What is right?" Maybe he's right or maybe I'm right, or maybe we are both wrong. You need to have a plan for that third eventuality as well.
Imagine a true academic was learning this Mishna. He would search for the 'true' pshat, not the pshetlach of later generations.
The earliest source that discusses this Mishna is a Medrash in Parshas Naso בלולה בשמן זו התורה שצריכה לבלול במעשים טובים כההיא דתנינן יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ שיגיעת שניהם משכחת עון
But of course academics are not actually known for their real intellectual honesty.
How do you that medrash proceeds the mishnah. Not all midroshim are tannaic. There is a reason why rashi NEVER quotes bemidbor rabboh. It's not the same source as bereoshis rabboh.
If it was written between 1100 and 1200 ce. Its not much different than the rambam and is later than rashi!
It's hard to imagine a difference of a few centuries being a qualitative difference without an accompanying major sociological change. (Churban ,the yeshivas in bavel falling apart , expulsion ,ww2 )...
Perhaps this is one of the reasons to argue against following the geonim against the later rishonim.(there is an old debate about this."they wouldn't have argued if they knew what they had said" VS. (They argued despite the old minhag")
I will not argue at this point about the meaning of hits mishnah in Avos. But it is very interesting to note that so many people will use this mishnah to ignore other words of Chazal such as in Avos 3:5 (R' Nechunya Ben Hakanah) and Kiddushin 82a and 82b. It is rather hypocritical to accuse others of ignoring chazals. How do the Chazals that you quote nullify the existence of the Chazals that you don't like?
If we are going to cite the Mishna on 82a we should also cite the the comments of Maharsha, who explains that Mishna in the Chiddushay AGGADOT section. He wrote that nobody disagreed with the previous Mishna and Gemorra on 29a that requires a father to teach his son an Umanot. Is there any authoritative earlier source that disputes Maharsha's understanding?
Of course nobody disagreed. Both ways are valid ways. Elu v'elu divrey E-lokim chayim. The problem is that people take one maamar of Chazal that they like and talk as if the one they don't like doesn't exist - or as if the one they like invalidates the one they don't like.
There is a famous Brisker Rav about this. He says that Rav Nehoray said he would only teach HIS son Torah. The Halacha is that the masses need to learn a trade, a few yechidei segula should only learn Torah. Rav Nehoray saw that his son was one of the few.
No. Every father needs to evaluate his son to see if he is one of the yechidei segula who should be taught only Torah. This is NOT a hanhaga for the masses. The masses should learn a trade. Read the Brisker Rav Al hatorah and you will see this very clearly.
I agreed that it is not a hanhaga for the masses. But since you want to quote the Brisker Rav, I'll quote the Beis HaLevy who says that it is up to every individual to decide if he wants to live a life of "Torah only" and without work. So yechidei segula in this context is not some magicaly defined wonder-person but a personal decision for each individual - at least that's what the Beis HaLevy says.
Abarbanel says something similar to Bunim. He asks
השאלה השלישית – באומרו: "וכל תורה שאין עמה מלאכה סופה בטלה". ומאין למד רבן גמליאל זה האם כל חכמי ישראל היו בעלי מלאכה ואומנות. אין ספק שעם היות שהיו מהם בעלי מלאכה לדלותם, כבר היו אחרים רבים שתורתם היה אומנותם ולא היו בעלי מלאכה. ואביו יוכיח וכל משפחתו.
He answers
ואומר שרבן גמליאל במה שאמר: 'דרך ארץ ומלאכה' לא כיון אומנות הידיים כי אם על החכמה המדינית וידיעת המדות המשובחות והנהגתם. כי על זה נאמר באמת "דרך ארץ" ושם "מלאכה" עליו נאמר גם כן, לפי שהידיעה המדותיית תכליתה המעשה. וכן נקרא בדברי הפילוסופים מלאכה גם. כי התורה האלהית היא בערך הטבע בהיותה ממסדר עליון בורא הכל, וההנהגה המדינית היא בערך המלאכה אשר יעשה אותה האדם. וכמו שהמלאכה האנושית משלמת לטבע ותיפה אותו, ככה חשב החכם הזה שההנהגה המדינית שהיא מפעל השכל המעשי, תהיה מיפה ומכשיטה להנהגה התוריית.
“ 'דרך ארץ ומלאכה' לא כיון אומנות הידיים כי אם על החכמה המדינית וידיעת המדות המשובחות והנהגתם. כי על זה נאמר באמת "דרך ארץ" ושם "מלאכה" עליו נאמר גם כן, לפי שהידיעה המדותיית תכליתה המעשה. וכן נקרא בדברי הפילוסופים מלאכה גם. כי התורה האלהית היא בערך הטבע בהיותה ממסדר עליון בורא הכל, וההנהגה המדינית היא בערך המלאכה אשר יעשה אותה האדם. וכמו שהמלאכה האנושית משלמת לטבע ותיפה אותו, ככה חשב החכם הזה שההנהגה המדינית שהיא מפעל השכל המעשי, תהיה מיפה ומכשיטה להנהגה התוריית.”
Gosh what’s with these Rishonim distorting the teachings of Hazal. They Hareidi or what?
לכן אמר רבן גמליאל..."יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ". רוצה לומר, יפה ונאה עם תלמוד תורה הנהגת דרך ארץ כפי המדות. ולכן לא אמר הכרחי ולא צריך. אבל אמר יפה, לפי שלא בא להודיע הכרחיותו כי אם יופיו כפי הנראה, שביגיעת שניהם משכחת עון להגיד שבהתחשב התלמוד וההנהגה המדותיית עם התורה. הנה היגיעה וההשתדלות וההתלמדות ההוא בשניהם פעם בזה ופעם בזה תהיה משכחת עון, לפי שאוולת המחשבות הרעות אינה נקשרת כי אם בלב הנעור והרק מתלמוד תורה, ופנוי מההנהגה השכלית. אבל כשיהיה האדם משתדל ועמל בשתי הידיעות האלה לא יתן לבו אל התאוות הגשמיות ולא יחטא.
והנה לא נתן בזה תכלית אחר מקנין השלימות, לפי שהוא נמשך מהתורה מפאת עצמה מזולת ה"דרך ארץ". אמנם מהיגיעה וההתעלמות ב"דרך ארץ" עם התורה ימשך טרדת הלב וישכח העון....
That's addressed to Feldheim Publisher's, of course. Mr. Bunim must be rolling over in his grave. Does that family have zero rights in these publications?
I think Noson and most of the commenters are missing an important point. Divre Chazal, constitutes Torah Sh'Baal Peh. That means it is guidelines, not an exact code of law or exact instructions. A talmid chochom, is a person who has absorbed a vast knowledge and understanding of Torah Sh'bichsav and Torah Sh'Baal Peh. As such his OPINIONS have credibility when making a decision in Halacha or offering advice. When an individual asks a talmid chochom for a psak, he is bound to listen and do what he was told. Often there is a consensus of the same opinion rendered by numerous talmidei chachomim on the same question. In that case a MINHAG of how the Jewish community acts could be established. However if an individual asks his Rav the same question and gets a different answer in his specific case, he must listen to his rav.
The entire issue of learning full time or leaving full time learning in our day and age has a certain consensus of great talmidei chachomim, who are fully aware of everything written in Avos, Talmud, all Chazal, Rishonim and Acharonim. Their opinions on this matter are significant, not the individual nit-picking opinion of a brilliant zoologist, who became embittered after he was shafted by some of these talmidei chachomim (but far from all). Unfortunately, by becoming so embittered, he himself has given credence to his opponents, who now say, "You see, were right about him in our original condemnation. His reactions and turning away have proved we were right about him all along!"
It is my understanding that the Kollel concept since the end of WWII has been very beneficial in general for Klal Yisroel, but it is not perfect for every individual. The Holocaust heavily degraded Torah Knowledge in the world and it had to be restored quickly. Sort of like a person who was terribly injured in an accident, you first work on keeping him alive, then you work on his rehab; you do not worry about where the money to accomplish these things will come from. Once he's on his feet and recovered to a certain level, he can get back to work. This is happening, many former kollel fellows are becoming millionaires and billionaires. Lakewood is slowly but surely becoming a rich city. Frum Jews have in recent times dominated the diamond business, now they are taking over the nursing home business, as well as many other real estate interests.
I have lots of problems with people not keeping Mishnayos in Avos.
For example, אל תהיו כעבדים המשמשים את הרב על מנת לקבל פרס.
Or, how about this one אל תרבה שיחה עם אשה, באשתו אמרו קל וחומר באשת חבירו. Does it bother you when you see couples chatting easily with each other? When a couple is walking in the street and the husband and wife are shmoozing? How could a teaching of Chazal be forgotten like that?
Tell the truth. Chazal is not your problem. You don't care whether they listen to Chazal or not. You don't have a 'job' (using the word as liberally as possible) because of Chazal, and Chazal's injunctions are only helpful suggestions to you.
Are you bothered when yeshiva boys start learning gemara before they are even bar mitzvah?
הוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר, בֶּן חָמֵשׁ שָׁנִים לַמִּקְרָא, בֶּן עֶשֶׂר לַמִּשְׁנָה, בֶּן שְׁלשׁ עֶשְׂרֵה לַמִּצְוֹת, בֶּן חֲמֵשׁ עֶשְׂרֵה לַתַּלְמוּד, בֶּן שְׁמֹנֶה עֶשְׂרֵה לַחֻפָּה, בֶּן עֶשְׂרִים לִרְדֹּף, בֶּן שְׁלשִׁים לַכֹּחַ, בֶּן אַרְבָּעִים לַבִּינָה, בֶּן חֲמִשִּׁים לָעֵצָה, בֶּן שִׁשִּׁים לַזִּקְנָה, בֶּן שִׁבְעִים לַשֵּׂיבָה, בֶּן שְׁמֹנִים לַגְּבוּרָה, בֶּן תִּשְׁעִים לָשׁוּחַ, בֶּן מֵאָה כְּאִלּוּ מֵת וְעָבַר וּבָטֵל מִן הָעוֹלָם:
No, I am not. I am not bothered by people talking to their wives or not going to college either.
I am bothered by people cherry-picking their sources, with a dishonest claim. The sources are not the basis of their beliefs, their beliefs were based on their secular nature. The sources are the 'heter' and mostly misunderstood.
Orthodox Jews who aren't Chassidic also don't follow the rule from Pirkei Avos to get married at 18. So, we now have three statements from Pirkei Avos that need to be addressed: talking excessively with a woman, even one's own wife, learning Gemara before 15, and not marrying at 18.
It seems like an obvious shaila of genaivas daas to publish a work where the editor purposely changes what the author actually wrote.
I asked a Poseik about censuring a passage out of a work a few centuries old and he said, much to my surprise, you may censure anything you wish.
This is not only Chazal, it's also a very straightforwardly, simply-stated halacha in Shulchan Aruch, placed right after the halachos of shacharis (Orach Chaim 156): https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.156?lang=bi
"After [completing shachris] he should go to his work, because all torah that is not joined with work ends up falling apart and brings about sin..."
From the context in Shulchan Aruch we can also infer that the reference is to common-sense, good, old-fashioned work.
Why reruns? This was brought up not long ago, and those expressing the same sentiment as yourself were referred to the ביאור הלכה there.
I don't always keep up with all comments in all posts, so I may have missed comments on an earlier post that made a similar point to my comment here.
That said, the biur halacha says that this applies to the klal and not to yechidim. Which doesn't contradict the point of my comment. So I'm not actually sure what you're driving at with the reference to the Bi"H.
The intellectual cowardice and dishonesty you described a while back WRT dismissing texts which do not agree with fashion in Charedi circles seems to extend to actively corrupting Torah.
You are singing to the choir. How about highlighting faults in DL community. The most obvious is modesty i.e. mingling of sexs, nigiah, immodest dress. This single failing has been the total ruin of all communities except for chareidim. So certainly chareidim have problems - but this factor alone requires any fully observant Jew to recognize that the chareidim alone hold up these Torah true values that have been abandoned and lost by all other communities.
Yes you are right - all the things that you mentioned are serious problems with some members of the DL community, and educators in the DL are constantly trying to find ways to get members of the community to take these (and other) mitzvot more seriously.
However, I am not aware of any books published in the DL world where they deliberately sensor or modify the words of Chazal in order to justify or encourage this forbidden behaviour. Could you please give an example.
There is a big difference between aveirot which are common within a community, and opposed by the leadership compared to a lifestyle which is frowned upon by Chazal, yet encouraged by the leadership in a community.
The word isn't "censor". They aren't the government. A better one would be "falsify" or "corrupt".
"However, I am not aware of any books published in the DL world where they deliberately sensor or modify the words of Chazal in order to justify or encourage this forbidden behaviour. Could you please give an example."
There are thousands of examples (and hundreds from this blog itself), of Modern Orthodox leaders openly distorting the Torah in attempt to justify deviations from it, since this is precisely what secularist Modern Orthodoxy is about.
How about MO leaders justifying homosexuality?
https://www.eshelonline.org/homosexuality-and-the-human-condition/
How about Michael Sedley saying HE DOESN'T CARE if his Knesset leaders are openly homosexual?
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/which-politicians-are-a-chillul-hashem/comment/11680787
Need I give more examples?
Could be you are getting muddled up between DL and OO.
See the response on this by Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer of the OU.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/sorry-rabbi-riskin-and-rabbi-greenberg-homosexual-relations-are-not-permitted-by-the-torah/
Anyway, back to the topic of this Blog please.
Sorry, Rabbi Lamm, Rabbi Riskin, and Rabbi Dr Slifkin are mainstream Modern Orthodox. Their distortions of Torah are literally the fabric that mainstream secularist Modern Orthodoxy is made of.
The topic of this blog is to fight chareidim. Fights are two sided, you know.
No disrespect to Rabbi Slifkin.
But you (Mr Happy) seem to be living in the past, and I suspect developing your impressions of MO from reading on the Net.
Can I suggest some bedtime reading of Rabbi Netanel Wiederblank (currently 2 volumes with another expected soon).
It might open your eyes. But if you want to keep your eyes closed, then that's your choice too.
Look, maybe you have a different definition of MO that doesn't include people like Rabbi Riskin. But you can't deny he is major personality in the movement, and there are hundreds of rabbis like him. What about Rabbi Mirvis who has pushed for teaching LGBTQ in Jewish schools? What about the countless academics who embrace Biblical Criticism and the Documentary Hypothesis? What about the many rabbis who approve of coed schools?
These are not "in the past", they are very much the present and future of mainstream Modern Orthodoxy. If you exclude all this from MO, your definition of Modern Orthodoxy is narrow indeed!
R' Avrohom Gordimer is hardly representative of mainstream MODOX. Here is what the great, venerated Dr. Marc Shapiro has to say about him:
https://seforimblog.com/2016/02/open-orthodoxy-and-its-main-critic-par/
Richie, you really seem out of your element here. You look like a rightwing MODOX student who naively thinks that most MODOX people are like him and is perplexed about what people have against MODOXism. The facts, as hgl is pointing out, are not your side. Yes, there are good MODOX people out there. R' Hershel Shachter is one of them. But R' Hershel Shachter likely has more in common with baalebatish Charedim in America than he does to many of the MODOX positions. Surely you know about the Artuz Sheva study in Israel or the Nishma study in the US that show that the majority of MODOX people feel charitable towards allowing women rabbis, permissive attitudes towards LGBTRSTUV+, regularly miss tefilos and many other things? Again, there are plenty of good MODOX people. No one is denying that. Just people find it extremely ironic that Natan is obsessively consumed about all the terrible infractions of Charedi society, yet the glaring overwhelming lack of commitment to Judaism which is so prevalent in the circles that he belongs is of no concern at all.
You also seem like a newcomer here and are unaware of the insidious purpose of this blog, namely, to besmirch those attempting to adhere to traditional Judaism to the best of their ability.
And saying, "Oh, go read that book by some young and relatively obscure rightwing MODOX rabbi" is a pretty ridiculous response!
Rabbi Slifkin writes Blogs, in general, about ideas.
You seem to want to focus on people and on communities in Judaism nowadays and which communities are following traditional Judaism and which are not.
The beauty of Rabbi Slifkin (and I'm not anyone has necessarily put the word beauty and Rabbi Slifkin in the same sentence in this Blog before) is that he rises above commenting on the characters in the current times we live in. And is focused on ideas and how they have been treated over the centuries.
"...he rises above commenting on the characters in the current times we live in."
Let's see if this statement is remotely accurate.
This post is about the devious censorship of Feldheim publishers, and by extension the entire chareidi community that has "erased a teaching of Chazal from Judaism".
The previous post was about - you guessed it- "the chareidi world".
The post before that was about "average yeshivish/charedi person"
And so on and so on. As you see, 95% of his content is attacks on the chareidi community or chareidi ideology. In that respect, it is the mirror image of what Mecharker and myself engage in, which is attacking secularist Modern Orthodox ideology (and rightfully so). If we bring up individuals, it is the same way Slifkin does, as examples of the broader point.
Worse than censoring, is blatant disregard! The immodest behavior in these communities is rampant and not isolated as you suggest.
If I understand you correctly, you claim that disregard of some miztvot by some members of a community (against the values of the community) is worse than distorting or censoring or distorting the Torah by the LEADERSHIP of a community.
No, blatant transgressions of open sins is more like it.
You are judging the DL community by the "blatant transgressions of open sins" of some of the members of the community - against the values that they are taught in school.
This post is judging the Haredi community by the distortion of Torah by Rabbis and publishers in the community.
Do you see a difference?
The DL community is spending a lot of effort trying to combat "blatant transgressions of open sins" of many people who identify with the community.
What is the Haredi community doing to combat open disregard for the Torah as shown in this blog post?
We must also mention the problems in the Muslim community of in-growing toe-nails and in the Christian communities the problems of not recycling Coca Cola cans, particularly amongst the Catholics.
But these issues are slightly off-topic.
Modesty in the Israeli Charedi community means that that you can't mention breast cancer in public health messaging. It also means that that you can't call the domestic abuse hotline with a kosher phone. And of course among the Chassidim it means that women can't drive or for many of them, grow their hair at all on pain of expulsion from the community. Even the more "liberal" Charedim in American won't allow totally tzanua pictures of frum women to be published even when these women are marketing the businesses they run to support their husbands in learning. And when it comes to true sexual sins such as sexual abuse, suddenly nothing is done and we are sinners and we need to accept their teshuva even when no teshuva has been done. No, that is not anything to emulate.
David, curious how you tend to exclusively chime in regarding sexual abuse.....
Sexual abuse in the Orthodox community (and generally) became an important topic for me after a family member of a friend was raped by a Rabbi and the community just ignored it for years and kept the Rabbi in his position until the case was reported in the press. That said, I have posted two series of guests posts on this blog having nothing to do with sexual abuse. Go back to the pets post to find my comments having nothing to do with sexual abuse.
modesty is in the eye of the beholder.
“modesty is in the eye of the beholder”
LOL!
Ah yes, the standard response to any perceived criticism no matter -or especially - if it's true. Rabid scattershot attack to protect the ego and the Charedi sense of superiority.
Why can't we have both?!
I'm surprised NS hasn't reposted this letter from the Baal Hafla'ah criticizing the aversion to work among the children of Rabbonim in Europe.
It sounds like he is literally writing for today. He also completely contradicts the concept of "Hashem will decree and I'll just do the bare minimum."
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/vilna-mussar-against-many-charedim
An excerpt:
"And as far as I am concerned, the current generation’s practice and custom, which is grounded in haughtiness, is evil; which is that most of the members of our nation do not want to teach a craft to their children, saying – with haughtiness and pride – “A trade is a great embarrassment to us.” Only involvement with business and sales, like shopkeepers, is honorable and becoming in their hearts. But ultimately, when they are unsuccessful in business due to bad luck – because there is a concept of luck among the Jewish people as I mentioned above — at that point they have no food, and transgress many sins, as the sages said “R’ Yehuda says: He who does not teach his son a trade, it is as though he has taught him the ways of robbery.” In other words, according to R’ Yehuda, even if he teaches him business – that is buying and selling goods - it is also as though he has taught him the ways of robbery. This is because sometimes he will not have any business to engage in, and he will then set himself up and engage in thievery – real work, making use of clever hands. Some of them engage in flattery of others and prostrate themselves for a cheap coin or loaf of bread; some openly steal and become thieves in the literal sense; some steal on the sly from Jews and non-Jews; some desecrate the Name of G-d amongst the gentiles due to the greatly disgusting acts in which they engage which damage the nations. This results in the gentiles saying “These are G-d’s people who have come out from his land; there is no disgusting behavior in which they are not well schooled, neither is there any trickery in which they are not expert, nor any forgery of which they lack knowledge”. This reaches the point that the gentiles say that the Talmud that the Jews teach their children is nothing but cleverness and slick ways to trick people.
Why should the gentiles say that Jews are swindlers who behave disgustingly? And why do they curse G-d’s Torah? All because you have looked upon the work of your hands as contemptible and disparaged those who engage in a craft.
And even more so do I feel anger towards those Torah scholars who do not want to teach their children a trade, and instead only Torah. They rely on the presumption that their children will be Rabbis or Judges, but ultimately many do not become learned enough in Torah to the point of becoming Halachic decisors among the Jews, and they end up “neither here nor there,” becoming schoolteachers. And as the number of those who hold of this approach increases, there end up being more schoolteachers than students, and as a result, these “schoolteachers” cannot even bring in enough for half of their household expenses, their households lack basic food and clothing, and consequently they cannot even engage in their holy work faithfully."
First of all, you need to brush up on your history. The author of the obscure Sefer Habris was not the Baal Haflaah!
Secondly, ראיה לסתור. Just like the Kesef Mishna writes about the Rambam, the minhag haolam of the Gedolim of that time is a way stronger ראיה than the opinions of this obscure rabbi.
You're right, wrong Horowitz.
So nothing in this letter rings true to you?
And no, it's not "minhag gedolim", it's sociological/cultural interia. No one ever paskened that all frum people in EY shouldn't work; it was a policy to exempt 400 yeshiva guys in the 1950's from joining the army that metastisized into the greater chareidi society during the following decades. Why do think the American yeshiva world looks so different?
What do you think a minhag is? It's a sociological phenomenon that is not necessarily "paskened" in any sefer. But if all the Torah scholars are doing it (as he says), it's a pretty strong proof. You think these sociological things are just random? No, there is an obvious reason why the policy of kollel in EY continued. Because the alternative there was joining the secular army. Society was and still is run by people like Slifkin, and worse, who want to destroy the chareidi community. And that is why the American yeshiva world looks different.
Most people are simply not cut out to learn full-time. Pirkei Avos and the halacha in Shulchan Aruch reflect this fact very clearly.
This is true. In America we do it right!
In the evolutionary struggle for survival charedim are more fit. It's very surprising that an avowed evolutionist doesn't see it. At the end of the day it is what it is and all the actions of an individual or a society should be be examined in this light. Is morality evolutionary beneficial? What is morality from the evolutionary standpoint? These questions are never asked and no comprehensvie approach to the issue is ever atempted, instead cases of charedi malfeasance are regurgitated without EVER addressing the evolutionary mechanisms behind them and of Judaism as a whole from its apprarance to this very day.
Regardless, one thing is clear that from the evolutionary perspectve the charedim have won the day, but the evolution never stops and they will have to keep adapting to continue surviving.
DL and MO are losing the evolutionary struggle. Why all their PHDs, who are steeped in modern science, cannot see it?
This blog is a waste of time.
Unfortunately, extremism is often a sign of lack of maturity, where people have not really developed emotionally past their mid-teens.
As one matures beyond that stage, one starts to discover that life is not divided into good and bad.
This challenge of discovery as one matures is not new. In fact, human nature doesn't really change over the centuries. And so these debates have continued for millenia and will continue.
I'm right and you're wrong. Instead, try thinking "What is right?" Maybe he's right or maybe I'm right, or maybe we are both wrong. You need to have a plan for that third eventuality as well.
A name-caller like you might as well be Chareidi.
oh wow has this heated up
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/on-knowing-how-to-learn-part-ii
Imagine a true academic was learning this Mishna. He would search for the 'true' pshat, not the pshetlach of later generations.
The earliest source that discusses this Mishna is a Medrash in Parshas Naso בלולה בשמן זו התורה שצריכה לבלול במעשים טובים כההיא דתנינן יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ שיגיעת שניהם משכחת עון
But of course academics are not actually known for their real intellectual honesty.
How do you that medrash proceeds the mishnah. Not all midroshim are tannaic. There is a reason why rashi NEVER quotes bemidbor rabboh. It's not the same source as bereoshis rabboh.
Something a typical chareidi would not know...m
The Medrash does not precede the Mishna, in fact, it quotes the Mishna.
But it tells us the pshat of the Mishna, and is the closest to the source that we have.
I think even a typical blind believer in 'academia' has enough Sechel to figure out that Irving Bunim was born after the Medras Rabbah was compiled.
If it was written between 1100 and 1200 ce. Its not much different than the rambam and is later than rashi!
It's hard to imagine a difference of a few centuries being a qualitative difference without an accompanying major sociological change. (Churban ,the yeshivas in bavel falling apart , expulsion ,ww2 )...
Perhaps this is one of the reasons to argue against following the geonim against the later rishonim.(there is an old debate about this."they wouldn't have argued if they knew what they had said" VS. (They argued despite the old minhag")
I will not argue at this point about the meaning of hits mishnah in Avos. But it is very interesting to note that so many people will use this mishnah to ignore other words of Chazal such as in Avos 3:5 (R' Nechunya Ben Hakanah) and Kiddushin 82a and 82b. It is rather hypocritical to accuse others of ignoring chazals. How do the Chazals that you quote nullify the existence of the Chazals that you don't like?
If we are going to cite the Mishna on 82a we should also cite the the comments of Maharsha, who explains that Mishna in the Chiddushay AGGADOT section. He wrote that nobody disagreed with the previous Mishna and Gemorra on 29a that requires a father to teach his son an Umanot. Is there any authoritative earlier source that disputes Maharsha's understanding?
Of course nobody disagreed. Both ways are valid ways. Elu v'elu divrey E-lokim chayim. The problem is that people take one maamar of Chazal that they like and talk as if the one they don't like doesn't exist - or as if the one they like invalidates the one they don't like.
Let's go back to the traditional מפרשים on the דף:
רש"י: בסחורה להתפרנס
רמב"ם: עוסק בפרנסה
רבינו יונה: ר"ל דרך ארץ מלאכה... ... אם אין קמח אין תורה
The Gemara in kiddushin 30b is quite explicit about the need for work.
רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר כֹּל שֶׁאֵינוֹ מְלַמְּדוֹ אוּמָּנוּת מְלַמְּדוֹ לִיסְטוּת לִיסְטוּת סָלְקָא דַּעְתָּךְ אֶלָּא כְּאִילּוּ מְלַמְּדוֹ לִיסְטוּת
So Rebbi Nehoray (Kiddushin 82) is not following halachah?
There is a famous Brisker Rav about this. He says that Rav Nehoray said he would only teach HIS son Torah. The Halacha is that the masses need to learn a trade, a few yechidei segula should only learn Torah. Rav Nehoray saw that his son was one of the few.
Reb Elchanan Wasserman Hy"d said the same thing.
That's correct. He said only that he would teach HIS son only Torah. And likewise anybody else that wants may also teach his son only Torah.
No. Every father needs to evaluate his son to see if he is one of the yechidei segula who should be taught only Torah. This is NOT a hanhaga for the masses. The masses should learn a trade. Read the Brisker Rav Al hatorah and you will see this very clearly.
I agreed that it is not a hanhaga for the masses. But since you want to quote the Brisker Rav, I'll quote the Beis HaLevy who says that it is up to every individual to decide if he wants to live a life of "Torah only" and without work. So yechidei segula in this context is not some magicaly defined wonder-person but a personal decision for each individual - at least that's what the Beis HaLevy says.
Abarbanel says something similar to Bunim. He asks
השאלה השלישית – באומרו: "וכל תורה שאין עמה מלאכה סופה בטלה". ומאין למד רבן גמליאל זה האם כל חכמי ישראל היו בעלי מלאכה ואומנות. אין ספק שעם היות שהיו מהם בעלי מלאכה לדלותם, כבר היו אחרים רבים שתורתם היה אומנותם ולא היו בעלי מלאכה. ואביו יוכיח וכל משפחתו.
He answers
ואומר שרבן גמליאל במה שאמר: 'דרך ארץ ומלאכה' לא כיון אומנות הידיים כי אם על החכמה המדינית וידיעת המדות המשובחות והנהגתם. כי על זה נאמר באמת "דרך ארץ" ושם "מלאכה" עליו נאמר גם כן, לפי שהידיעה המדותיית תכליתה המעשה. וכן נקרא בדברי הפילוסופים מלאכה גם. כי התורה האלהית היא בערך הטבע בהיותה ממסדר עליון בורא הכל, וההנהגה המדינית היא בערך המלאכה אשר יעשה אותה האדם. וכמו שהמלאכה האנושית משלמת לטבע ותיפה אותו, ככה חשב החכם הזה שההנהגה המדינית שהיא מפעל השכל המעשי, תהיה מיפה ומכשיטה להנהגה התוריית.
“ 'דרך ארץ ומלאכה' לא כיון אומנות הידיים כי אם על החכמה המדינית וידיעת המדות המשובחות והנהגתם. כי על זה נאמר באמת "דרך ארץ" ושם "מלאכה" עליו נאמר גם כן, לפי שהידיעה המדותיית תכליתה המעשה. וכן נקרא בדברי הפילוסופים מלאכה גם. כי התורה האלהית היא בערך הטבע בהיותה ממסדר עליון בורא הכל, וההנהגה המדינית היא בערך המלאכה אשר יעשה אותה האדם. וכמו שהמלאכה האנושית משלמת לטבע ותיפה אותו, ככה חשב החכם הזה שההנהגה המדינית שהיא מפעל השכל המעשי, תהיה מיפה ומכשיטה להנהגה התוריית.”
Gosh what’s with these Rishonim distorting the teachings of Hazal. They Hareidi or what?
According to this explamation what's the meaning the יגיעת שניהם משכחת עוון. What sin(s) are beong referred to?
He discusses it
לכן אמר רבן גמליאל..."יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ". רוצה לומר, יפה ונאה עם תלמוד תורה הנהגת דרך ארץ כפי המדות. ולכן לא אמר הכרחי ולא צריך. אבל אמר יפה, לפי שלא בא להודיע הכרחיותו כי אם יופיו כפי הנראה, שביגיעת שניהם משכחת עון להגיד שבהתחשב התלמוד וההנהגה המדותיית עם התורה. הנה היגיעה וההשתדלות וההתלמדות ההוא בשניהם פעם בזה ופעם בזה תהיה משכחת עון, לפי שאוולת המחשבות הרעות אינה נקשרת כי אם בלב הנעור והרק מתלמוד תורה, ופנוי מההנהגה השכלית. אבל כשיהיה האדם משתדל ועמל בשתי הידיעות האלה לא יתן לבו אל התאוות הגשמיות ולא יחטא.
והנה לא נתן בזה תכלית אחר מקנין השלימות, לפי שהוא נמשך מהתורה מפאת עצמה מזולת ה"דרך ארץ". אמנם מהיגיעה וההתעלמות ב"דרך ארץ" עם התורה ימשך טרדת הלב וישכח העון....
בושה וחרפה!
That's addressed to Feldheim Publisher's, of course. Mr. Bunim must be rolling over in his grave. Does that family have zero rights in these publications?