Maybe Meiselman should read about what happened in Kerem Shalom to the members of the Garin Torani there, and he should go pay a shiva call to the frum wives and children of Amichai Veitzen and Yedidya Raziel, true talmidai chachamim who lost their lives defending the families around them, and offer them an apology. Maybe Meiselman should listen to the message that Amichai sent his wife while he was in combat, asking her to daven with the kids and dance with them in honor of Simchas Torah, and not to look out the windows. What incredible chutzpah for this man to claim that he has has answers, he knows why it happened. What incredible haughtiness to pat yourself on the back and not only dance on the graves of those who died, but take a large portion of the Anglo Charedi world with you.
It's quite clear that you didn't actually read what R. Meiselman wrote, and just relied entirely on NS's misrepresentation of it. That you, and others here, still do that, and think you're getting something truthful, is a great demonstration of why Hamas plays the disinformation game.
You are distorting what Rabbi Meiselman said, which is just normative Judaism. He wasn't talking about Amichai Veitzen and Yedidya Raziel but secular people.
As my good friend David Ohsie wrote defending those who danced on the graves when the Meron tragedy happened, "How is demanding answers for a public safety failure for all the deaths in group A demeaning to the family members of the victims of group A? It might be uncomfortable of the leaders of group A who had a hand in it not but quite clearly supportive of the victims and their loved ones. There are plenty of Israelis not waiting to criticize the govt for the its failures in dealing with Hamas and with the aftermath." https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/idf-exemptions-the-crucial-distinction/comment/42439983
BTW, the troll goes even farther and thinks that people who demand answers from the govt about how their relatives were killed by Hamas are dancing on their relatives' graves. He's got a screw loose.
This has nothing to do with Charedi Judaism either. They'll make occasional remarks about stupid pig eaters when they are in a fight, but you don't find mainstream Charedi Rabbi attacks another group when a tragedy like this happens. This is a time when we are all one group. R Meiselman's rant is an outlier.
No, the millions of faithful Jews from all walks of life who believed in Hashem and His Torah and observed it with devotion- as opposed to the kofrim and meshumadim
The point being made is that it is simply not true to claim that for thousands of years there was a social class of tens of thousands of Jews who learned full-time. The fact that you are incapable of addressing that point, and instead resort to speaking about kofrim, speaks volumes.
If you waste enough time reading comments on this blog, it becomes clear that Slifkin's chasidim are often heretics or self-hating Jews or flat-out morons....it leaps out at you.
One here believes Hashem rarely gets involved with what is happening on earth! (afra lipumei), another attacks Jews with vengeance. He spews the old canard how the rabbis urged yidden to stay behind when the nazis were coming.... another genius who agrees with slifkin, (although even he prefers that the blog stick to animals) opines that the buddah idol at the drugfest (if it was there, not surprising though) is "because that whole generation (and more…) has been totally alienated by the antics of the Israeli charedim". Wow!
Or maybe they have studied some Torah and realize that no one understands Providence confidently enough to make such predictions and that someone claims to understand is to be the least trusted. Especially when the explanation happens to confirm all of their prior biases.
Nobody understands enough to make predictions, but when the cause is obvious, we should say it like it is. Not ignore the obvious cause just because other things happen where the cause is not obvious.
We also had a Holocaust and perhaps more committed Jews went to their death.I think it's a disgrace
to "G-d Think" . We have various ideas to speculate about causes natural and supernatural. We don't have the right to judge why people suffer and die.But we do have a responsibility to improve our behavior, our relationships, and our general spiritual approach. Also to take all natural means to prevent reoccurrence of the hurt and tragedy.ושמרת את נפשותיכם.
This is only an issue for people who think that Zionism is a sin. How could it be that we came back to the land and realized the blessings repeated in Shema every day for a robust harvest in our land, if the country was established by the accursed Zionists? Otherwise, it is easy to see the fulfillment of promises that we would return. That said, I would never assert that any particular success or failure is do to this or that sin or mitzvah. No one with any amount of knowledge claims to understand Providence well. All commentators struggle with the fact that bad things happen to good people and vice versa.
David, this is is literally the exact opposite of what Torah teaches. It is precisely bc of statements like this that we hear דעת בעתי בתים היפך מדעת תורה. Sorry to say it.
The Torah says that Providence will be well understood and each good and bad event will be easily assignable to some specific sin or mitzvah? What is your source for that? I see the Rishonim recognizing various questions about Providence as difficult puzzles including its interaction with free will and why it seems not to operate as one would naively assume (Tzadik veRa Lo).
Rambam and many others say we are to introspect following tragedy, and not simply ascribe it to happenstance or geopolitics. No one - not a single one - claims to know for sure why such events happen. And you personally are not obligated to accept anyone's interpretation. But it is 100% the right thing to try.
Source please? You are misapplying whatever you are reading.
Claiming a calamity happened to others because of their sins is not introspection. The point is not to do a cause and effect analysis; it is to use it as an opportunity to do Teshuvah. It's worse Achzarius to blame the victim than saying that it is just the way of the world (which I have not heard a single group saying).
I'd like to see the source where Rambam excludes geopolitics or other practical considerations. In Rambam's view, one of the purposes of Mitzvos is to have a well regulated society so that people have time for contemplation, He explicitly blamed the Churban on practical considerations in one place (letter on Astrology).
that it is up to every person to take care of his life in accordance with the טבע. G-d usually doesn't protect one who doesn't protect himself.That is a Torah obligation.
You (slifkin) are a thoroughly dishonest person. Everything you wrote, without exception, is twisted to fit your personal views, without an ounce of genuine consideration for what the Torah would say, from any source whatsoever. That's the plain, honest truth.
If a Torah source fits your narrative you, you love it. If not, you play with it. With zero care whatsoever for any objective truth. You are a fake and a fraud.
Most people see you for who you are, and I bet your own relatives do too...your own family....even if they won't say it outright. It is clear as day.
The theology of Meiselman as you describe it here is very upsetting.
There is another gap in his logic which you didn't mention. By Meiselman's logic, the 2 religious-Zionist yishuvim in the area were protected by Divine protection because their behavior.
If this was true, given that the vast majority of residents of those Yishuvim serve in the army and a very small percentage are in full-time kollel, does this mean that it is not full-time learning which protects communities, but maybe some other type of Mitzva observance?
Maybe it is their commitment to developing and settling Eretz Yisrael that granted them Divine Protection, or maybe it was some other Mitzva that these specific Yishuvim have adopted. This would also explain why they received super-Natural Divine protection, yet the people who tragically died in Meron, many of whom were in Kollel or Yeshivot, did not receive such protection.
Or maybe we cannot fathom or understand the reason behind G-d's actions.
Too easy (for all of us) to look at another camp and say "they need to do more of this and less of that, but my camp needs to maintain the status quo".
Yes. We are all like this. My own feeling, after much reflection, is that one should think only of individual corrections he can make. Personal shortcomings that might possibly be overcome. To think in terms of communal changes is too hard, beyond our control, and we are all too entrenched in our political positions.
David, I cant tell if you were addressing me or someone else. If it was me, I will just repeat what I said to you above: that your comments, unfortunately, are exactly the opposite of what the Torah teaches. You dont have to accept R. Meiselman's conclusions, but his effort to learn and draw lessons from the tragedy are EXACTLY what we should be doing. And while individuals like you and me should focus on ourselves, a public figure like him should indeed be looking at public issues. If not him, who?
Well, there were thousands of Charedi Yeshiva bochurim that were spared, quite strangely.
According to what I heard, they were minutes away from Tifrach Yeshiva, yet ignored them. Yeshivos in Ofakim were ignored, even though they had a map of the Yeshiva and could have entered. They were never in the army, neither were most of their Roshei Yeshivos and Mashgichim.
@zookeeperguy i grew up with slifkin, he means well, although i agree with you its not a good idea to start trashing a massive gadol b'torah! stay safe mike!!
I read this and I think to myself, "Is there an IQ low enough to actually believe a word that is written here?" But I guess there is.
Without referring to any sources, merely by reading this article, you can prove the exact opposite of what Slifkin (which one?) is trying to prove.
Here is one example:
Rabbi Meiselman said:
“The total bankruptcy of the people who think they understand how the world works and how to defend the country and how to run a society without Torah and leave Hashem out of the picture, is being shown in the most extreme way for everyone to see.”
Somehow SLifkin manages to react with this gem:
First, note the irony of R. Meiselman criticizing others for being overconfident about understanding how the world works, while he is absolutely confident that he knows God’s own calculations.
Rabbi Meiselman criticizes those who leave God out of the equation, and that somehow is contradicted by himself for saying that God was involved.
Is it possible for a human brain to be that dense? This is a corkscrew that has been bent out of shape.
This is a lesson to all of us. An Am ha'aretz is not only ignorant of Torah, his thought processes are totally and completely warped. Something can stare at him in the face, and he will see the opposite.
When we daven Shacharis and thank Hashem for being מאיר לארץ ולדרים עליה ברחמים, we are thanking Him for giving us this light of Torah that shows us the world. If we did not have Torah, we would all be a bunch of Slifkins.
Oh, you said 'end of story', so it's the end of the story. And that is why someone who claims to understand why Hashem did something is the same as someone who says that the world works without Hashem.
Learn some reading comprehension. Stories won't end so abruptly.
Btw, I never agreed with Rabbi Meiselman. But this blog post shows a breathtaking am ha'aratzus and low level of logic and simple understanding.
Surely a correct response to tragedy does not only involve practical steps on how to avoid it in the future such as increasing army vigilance and intelligence; but also prayer and tshuva and increasing Torah learning. The events that happened may have been because we underestimated Hamas And an appropriate response would include fortifying ourselves and not allowing it to happen again. But also we can not forget to introspection spiritually.
Maybe the religious improvement we can make is stop calling every camp to our left evil and ever camp to our right crazy. Maybe a chief Rabbi shouldn't call others out as stupid pig eaters. I think that would be a great improvement.
Yes the בעלי נס who decide that 🕐chareidim don't have to serve because they know that armies are not that necessary and they can produce the requisite miracles.They can change the טבע and ignore the need for soldiers. They are the סומכים על הנס soldiers.
Please provide a source for that claim in Shulchan Aruch or other Halachic works.
Seems to directly contradict the Rambam, but if there are Rishonim or Achronim who disagree with Rambam's opinion, would be happy to see their opinion if you send a source
Wow - whoever wrote that makes so many false assumptions it's surprising that anyone takes them seriously.
He says that none of what he ahs to say applies in a Pikuach Nefesh situation, and then says without any backing that the army has enough soldiers for so it is not Pikuach Nefesh.
He then goes on to say that Rambam says that Shevet Levi are exempt from war, but fails to explain how the Haredi society today are the same as Shevet Levi - they are neither all from shevet Levi,, nor do they dedicate their lives to TEACHING Torah to other segments of society.
He then claims, again without backing, that there are some Rishonim who say that Rambam's ruling about Levi'im being exempt from Milchemet Rishut also applies in a Milchemet mitzva, which is not the simple understanding of the Rambam.
At this point I stopped reading because I figured if he can make so many false assumptions before he even starts, there are probably better uses of my time.
If this is the level of learning in Haredi yeshivot, I can only be glad that the several years I spent in Yeshiva were not Haredi, and emphasized actually learning and analyzing the text.
All your examples of false assumptions are purely your own conjecture. It is up to you to prove that it is pikuach nefesh that chareidim join the army. The Rambam says that those who devote their lives to serving Hashem are like Shevet Levi. He doesn't say that all of Shevet Levi taught, or that this is a requirement for any particular person to be like Shevet Levi.
Looks like you didn't even look at the Rambam, let alone the document. This is what you consider "analyzing a text"? We are not even talking about learning here, just simple reading, which apparently you cannot do.
So all you can point me to is some forum on the treife internet . Great stuff. And you haven't told me where I can find a halachik definition of 'yeshiva student' either which is a fundamental part of this pesak. Without that, the whole thing is meaningless (is it buried somewhere in that mass of text?)
In any event, that is not my discussion, it is others' discussions. My beef is with this 'torah protects' sound-bite excuse. When every honest person knows the real reason is lifestyle, culture and politics.
This is nonsense and you know it. Furthermore - are they exempt ad infinitum? Should they be exempt from codified social service in lieu of army service?
Which Halacha invented 'social service in lieu of army service'?
As I wrote on the other blog, if someone claims that Bochurim are obligated to fight for themselves and their brethren, equal to the rest of the country, that is one thing. But if they are demanding that those bochurim do 'community service' or join 'the Army' and become radio announcers, base guitarists, or some other unimportant job, it shows that they care not a whit about any Halachos or mutual obligations. They just want Charedim not to exist, and use specious claims to push their agenda.
Yes, because becoming a 'base' (sic) guitarist is what I meant, instead of say, a paramedic, army chaplain, engineer, operations resource or any other beneficial role. Instead you choose the tritest of examples to build up your own straw man argument. I understand why some Haredim don't serve or are fearful of a 'secular' army and I believe in some form of accommodation.
I know that, but I don't think פיקוח נפש is their rationale. If פיקוח נפש was such an important consideration in this discussion, you should have all emigrated to a safer country. The rationale is that מלחמת מצוה requires everybody to enlist and is docheh פיקוח נפש.
"There's also the sin of attributing too much power to our Torah study and שבת observance, and not enough to Hashem."
Unlike the people who have believe in the kochi v'otzem yadi of the IDF, I don't think anybody attributes magical power to Torah study and Shabbos. Rather, they understand, as the Torah makes clear in countless places, that Hashem saves us in the merit Shemiras HaTorah and Talmud Torah. Of course, if you don't believe in the basics of Judaism, you won't believe that either.
The Rambam indicates in his Moreh that Hashgacha Protit is also related to the intellectual development of the individual who is aware and protects himself from natural disaster. In other words the דיני הטבע matter.אין סומכים על הנס
man's deal with life considering the
טבע. Your halacha believes that in certain instances like- learning Torah , we can forget about the natural order and expect miracles,i.e. סומכים על הנס. I don't. I believe we have to sacrifice for Torah learning etc. but we don't put people in terrible jeopardy. Serve in the Army ,etc.
Yeshiva students are not putting anybody in serious jeopardy. That's nonsense that Slifkin filled your ears with. The very State of Israel was founded with serious jeopardy and only succeeded with the help of Hashem, in the merit of Shomrei Torah.
jumping in late, i don't think anyone should be pointing fingers, except to take inward messages. perhaps Rabbi Meiselman was doing just that, idk, i'm not here to defend him
but my main concern is what happens in these blogs. we can't seem to remember ourselves. thank God I appreciate what the importance of Torah to the Jews is. but even those that don't are still a a part of the fold. and they even have many valid points.
let's remember אחינו כל בית ישראל הנתונים בצרה ובשביה and come together.
i do want to copy a comment i made below though, civilly:
______________________________
Natan Slifkin
10 hrs ago
Author
Your talk about Shas and mesorah and "classical Judaism" is just hilarious. There is absolutely nothing traditional about having hundreds of thousands of people learning in yeshivah, avoiding milchemes mitzvah and demanding support from others. It all grew out of a horaas shaah after the Holocaust.
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shulman
just now
do you know what the mesorah is after? perhaps if we explained what the mesorah is, it would help clarify things.
are you aware that Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov were completely and totally immersed in thinking about God and His will and laws 24/7 without a single break? it is they who we try to emulate. Moshe Rabbeinu was the same thing. any of the neviim listed in the Rambam's chain of mesorah, though perhaps not on the level of the holy avos and Moshe, were also completely engaed in thinking about God and His will and laws. Any single person in the entire Mesorah until the chasimas hatalmud, our leaders, our greats, our goals, were completely immersed in Torah. that is what they all had in common. move right through to the rishonim. it got more difficult and the Rambam bemoaned his inability to be like Avraham, Yiitzchak and Yaakov, but compared to anyone we know, he was wholly surounded by Torah and God for his every waking hour and until his very last breath. skip to our acharonim, poskim, who couldn't reach the level of commitment as their predecessors. but, by God, did they try. they mastered God's laws, reviewing every precious page of the Talmud hundreds of careful, loving, painstaking times. delving into the intricacies of Gods laws, because they hearkened and couldn't get enough of His every word, which they hung onto with their blood, tears and life.
this is what our precious mesorah is.
within that mesorah, the mesorah of being close to God Almighty, there is a lot of color. such as if chazal knew science, such as if they even cared about science, such as the role of philosophy and development of the nations swirling around our insulated world of God's word, such as whether more people should work, such as if we should be intimately involved with the outside world or if we should keep our strengths insulated and strong. but the base is God and His Torah.
today many can't get close to God even in the beis midrash until they leave their outside world behind. so the only place God exists is with the four cubits of halacha, in the beis midrash.
to that i say the more the merrier. let's keep the mesorah alive, by having our Torah be the center, as it always was and always will be
Once Slifkin opened up the floor....lets add other ideas that are worth thinking about....
Never forget the chilul Hashem Netanyahu made when he yelled against Hashem, shortly before the massacre.... all honest people understood how wrong it was (slifkin loved it and justified it, but that proves, if anything, how wrong it was). One thing is for certain. He needs Hashem now more than ever.
Never forget how mere days before the massacre, on Yom Kippur of all days, secular crazies in Tel Aviv went ape when Jews wanted to pray! On Yom Kippur! How low can one go? One things is for certain. They need Hashem now more than ever.
You are making a tremendous mistake here, as follows. Rabbi Meiselman was not trying to use this incident to prove the message of the Torah, that God saves us in the merit of Torah and ח"ו otherwise in retribution for the transgression of Torah. He already believes in this message of the Torah, and was speaking to an audience who believes it. When somebody has this basic emunah, he is supposed to interpret the situation accordingly. This is really just standard Torah hashkafa, which you seem to have unfortunately forgotten when you turned to secularism. Sometimes, the interpretation is difficult, such as in the case of the Holocaust and the Har Nof massacre. But in this case, it's really easy.
All your objections about how this can be explained naturally and with statistics totally ignores normative Jewish hashkafa, expressed succintly by the Rambam in Hilchos Taanis: אֲבָל אִם לֹא יִזְעֲקוּ וְלֹא יָרִיעוּ אֶלָּא יֹאמְרוּ דָּבָר זֶה *מִמִּנְהַג הָעוֹלָם* אֵרַע לָנוּ וְצָרָה זוֹ *נִקְרָה נִקְרֵית*. הֲרֵי זוֹ דֶּרֶךְ אַכְזָרִיּוּת וְגוֹרֶמֶת לָהֶם לְהִדַּבֵּק בְּמַעֲשֵׂיהֶם הָרָעִים. וְתוֹסִיף הַצָּרָה צָרוֹת אֲחֵרוֹת.
Your invocation of Iyov is amusing but unfortunate, because Iyov was kofer in the hashgacha of Hashem. You should read until the end of Iyov where he does teshuva, and take a lesson from him and do the same yourself.
EDIT: Also, it is good that Rabbi Meiselman is a mathematician and understands statistics better than you do. If only one out of 22 towns was attacked, it would be correct that 20 of the 22 are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked. But when at least seven were attacked and taken control of, there is about a 50% chance that at least one of the 2 frum towns would be attacked.
" Not one incident happened in any of the frum yishuvim."
1) Have these frum yishuvim returned to their normal routine? Or are they still evacuated? They are not suffering? What it the sin of these שבת observant communities that they have become refugees?
2) Some weeks ago, when the UTJ/Shas had a fit due to Bibi's Holocaust comments. They pointed out that the Yishuv was ALMOST wiped out by the Nazis, and therefore the Holocaust in no way vindicated the Zionists. Well, these yishuvim were also ALMOST wiped out.
2 is totally consistent with standard Torah hashkafa. The strategy of sending everybody to Israel (even if it was remotely realistic) did not at all put them out of the reach of the Germans. It was only thanks to the outpouring of Tefilos (and Hashem sending the Allied forces, along with the Soviet army distracting the Germans on the eastern front, I hope you thank them) that the Yishuv was saved.
When God plans to punish the righteous along with the wicked, then yes. I don't think the Gemara means when He is planning to only punish the wicked. In that case, the righteous can be spared (like Noach).
The instinct of those right wingers is to look for divine theodicy. The instinct of left wingers, such as the Times of Israel publisher, has been to write editorials against Bibi and Ben Gvir. And the instinct of this blog has been to fall back onto anti-charedi hatred.
Can you really not see that you're all one and the same?
And the Charedim haven't piled on Bibi. The point is that people have simply fallen back to the same old posture and positions they've always had. (Of course, these are just a small minority in all cases. Most people are focused purely on the way.)
"And even if it were mostly secular Jews who were killed"..
Why are facts so difficult for you to comprehend. The reality is that less that 1% of the victims were frum and the overwhelming majority of the were left-wing liberals, some of them even pro-Palestinian. Oh, also there was a literal Buddha Statue at the drug-fuled Simchas Torah rave.
Does this make this pogrom less tragic, of course not! Even in Lakewood and Benei Berak they are saying Tehilim. However, as a self-billed rationalist don't shy away from the facts.
It showed, in your words, that Chareidi leadership is bankrupt and irresponsible. The drug fueled Buddha party, which may not exactly have been ratzon Hashem, shows that secular leadership is bankrupt and irresponsible. (Of course, the tragedy is horrifying and unjustifiable).
As I said, it we have no idea what it shows... My issue was your 'even if they were mostly secular..' comment which is extremely unfactual.
PS the Meron tradgedy, coming months after Rav Shmuel Auerbach's sudden death (which followed Rav AL Steinman's) many took as a message about the huge divisions in the Charedi community - but until a prophet comes along we can't know for sure!
People who died at the concert probably wouldn't want Tehillim said for them. Fanatical devotion is what killed them in the first place. They would prefer people to sing peace anthems in their memory and search their souls to make the words come true.
What do these peace anthems bring? More death. More opportunities for Muslim terror. Apeasemenr dosent work with these animals. We need to pray to Hashem thay we succeed in eradicating evil and avenge our brothers souls. Your peace fantasy just kills us.
רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא" (ב"ב, ז' ב')? רבש"ע, כלום מותר לסמוך על הנס במקום של סכנת נפשות ממש ולומד שאין רבנן צריכים שמירה? וחברון של תרפ"ט (לא תקום פעמים צרה) תוכיח, כלום לא נפלו לפני בני עולה צעירים קדושים וטהורים, כזוהר הרקיע מזהירים, מבחירי הישיבה וחכמיה? במטותא מינייכו רבנן, הקדושים ההם היו "צריכי נטירותא", או לא היו "צריכי נטירותא"? והרי הם הם אותם האויבים-הערבים שפרעו ורצחו אז והם הם אותם הפורעים ורוצחים עכשיו! ואם אמרו על "נטירותא" של בנין חומה וכיוצא, ובזמנים רגילים, במטרת שמירה מפני שונאים העלולים לבוא (ראה רש"י, ב"מ ק"ח א') מה זה עניין לזמן של סכנת נפשות ולחובה של מלחמת מצוה? הגיעו בעצמכם: הנה יצאה הוראה מ"משמר העם" להדביק את השמשות של כל החלונות בבד או נייר משוסםסכנת הפצצה. כלום יעלה על הדעת שתלמידי חכמים לא יעשו כזאת בטענה ש"רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא"? כלום היה אף מי שהוא מהעוסקים בתורה שהשתמטו ממילוי הוראה זו? ולמה עזבו תלמידי-החכמים, יחד עם שאר אחינו בני ישראל, את שכונות-הספר הנפגעות מיריות הצלפים ולא השתמשו בסגולה זו של "רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא"? וכי רק בשביל זה בלבד שבמקרים אלה אי-אפשר לסמוך על אחרים? וכי זוהי דעת התורה? ולמה אפוא להשתמש שלא בזמנה ושלא במקומה באמרה זו של "נטירותא", שכשהיא לעצמה, בזמנה הנכון ובמקומה המתאים, היא פנינה נחמדה.
I'm a tremendous admirer of R Zevin. But I'll just note that what wrote further on in that piece
"מבחינה מעשית יש אולי חשש שהישיבות יתרוקנו בעזוב רוב התלמידים את מוסדות האולפנא, ותורה מה תהא עליה. אבל לשם כך יש להיכנס במשא ומתן עם מוסדות הגיוס על הסדרים מעשיים ידועים, ותמיד אפשר למצא את הדרך להקלות ולהגבלות. עד כמה
"שידוע לי, הייתה נכונות כזאת מצד אותם המוסדות.
"
might have been true at the time, but has been seriously eroded since then. No less that Dr Slifkin's newfound hero R Eliezer Melamed found out the hard way that the army can be less than fully accommodating to religious needs. And in some cases they're downright hostile.
בפולמוס סביב "שירת נשים בצבא", תומך הרב מלמד, בניגוד לעמדת הרבנות הצבאית, ביציאתם של חיילים דתיים מאירועים שבהם מופיעה זמרת, גם כאשר מדובר בטקס רשמי וממלכתי, ואף אם יקבלו פקודה מפורשת להישאר[43].
כנגד הטענה שסירוב פקודה יפגע באחדות הצבא ואף עשוי להוביל להתפרקותו, טוען הרב מלמד שההפך הוא הנכון. רוב גדול של עם ישראל – כולל החרדים והמתנחלים – יזדהה הרבה יותר עם הצבא, אם יהיה ברור שפקודותיו אינן סותרות את ההלכה וסמכותו אינה מנסה להתחרות בסמכותה[44]. גם רוב המשרתים בצבא שאינם שומרי מצוות, מזדהים הרבה יותר עם ערכי השמירה על העם והארץ ועם מורשת ישראל שביסודו של הצבא, מאשר עם החובה הפורמלית לציית. רק מיעוט שמאלני קטן איננו מזדהה עם הערכים הללו ואין צריך לחשוש כל כך מתגובתו[45]. אדרבא, סירוב הפקודה ישיב את הצבא לערכיו המקוריים של נאמנות למורשת ישראל והתמקדות במלחמה באויבי ישראל, ולא בניסיון למצוא חן בעיני הגויים[46]. אין צורך לחשוש מ"מדרון חלקלק" בעניין זה, מפני שאין מדובר על סירוב לפקודה בעת לחימה (שאז יש לציית גם במצבים של חוסר הסכמה[47]), אלא לוויכוח עקרוני בין עמדות שהתבררו היטב בזירה הציבורית. כמו כן, הכל מבינים שיש הבדל בין סירוב לפעול כנגד יהודים או כנגד ההלכה, לבין סירוב להילחם באויבי ישראל. כפי שאין דואגים מן הכפיפות של הצבא לבג"ץ אף על פי שהוא מייצג עמדה רחוקה מאוד מזו של מורשת ישראל, ואף שהוא מתערב בפעילותו של הצבא ולא רק בשמירת זכויותיהם של חיילים פרטיים, כך אין צורך לדאוג מ"כפיפות" של הצבא לרבנים"[48].
בתגובה לעמדותיו בנושא סירוב פקודה ביטל שר הביטחון אהוד ברק את מסלול ה"הסדר" מישיבת הר ברכה. בתמוז ה'תשע"ג חידש מחליפו של ברק, משה יעלון, את המסלול בישיבה[49]
That's fair. I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you.
I should note that R Zevin has a much longer discussion on the topic in his le'or ha'halacha. Been a while since I looked at it, but I don't recall him making such sweeping claims there.
It must also be noted that the situation now isn't nearly as dire as it was in 1948. Without minimizing the horror of the atrocities committed by Hamas, there was never any real threat to Israel's existence writ large. As Dr Slifkin correctly noted, "The IDF easily had the power to stop Hamas doing such a thing (and it is very unlikely to ever happen again); they just didn’t take Hamas seriously enough to place sufficient forces there, and they were not organized enough in their response."
Rav Zevin was not a fanatical Lakewood charedi yeshivish 'guy' was he?
They will tell you 'he is not from our beis hamedrash'. And Chevron was a 'hester ponim' or 'shema yigrom hacheit' or similar. They are very good at justifying these things retrospectively, but still maintain it is perfectly ok to rely on 'torah protects' tomorrow! While seeing no difficulty in simultaneously demanding extra guards for the torah towns of beiter and kiryat seifer in times of heightened alert. Anything can be justified with complicated yeshivish pilpul and sound bites from assorted random cherry-picked out of context quotes.
At a time when most of Israeli Jewry is in mourning over the massacre and united in the need to fight, is now really the appropriate time to declare that it is Divine punishment for secular and leftist Jews?
Swing and a miss. You did NOT answer his question.
He said what everyone knows to be true...you are biased and you continually seek revenge as much as possible (which is against Torah no matter who else does it...proving you are not a genuine frum yid...one of MANY proofs anyhow)...and this ofcourse is about personal vendetta like usual.....and it
IS a horrific time for it, which is his excellent point.
Putting aside for a moment your personal hatred for many yidden and your constant push for revenge and your immaturity.....please answer the damn question!
Why is NOW not the wrong time for this? YOU yes YOU are creating animosity at one of the worst times in recent history....yes YOU... and for personal reasons which we all recognize....
You are the fraud...no matter what you say. You are igniting hatred and we all know it. Shame on you. Shame on your pathetic life.
Rabbi Slifkin - I would like some clarification on your view of Divine messaging and/or divine punishment in general. Do you believe there is such a thing as a "divine message" period? If yes, what is the process used to interpret what that message is? Do you believe god is "ok" with a secular lifestyle? If not and god does not send messages can't the person claim to god after 120 "but you never told me this is your will"? "How am i supposed to know the truth if you (god) don't tell me and everyone has different opinions?"
Also, The same Rambam who Rabbi Meiselmen say paskens Torah scholars are exempt because their Torah contributes to the protection of the city also said in his letter to the community of Marseille that the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed because our forefathers studied astrology instead being involved in the art of war and the conquest of land. The Rambam does not say the should have been learning torah instead. meisa avot siman labanim.
"This is why our kingdom was lost and our Temple was destroyed and why we were brought to this; for our fathers sinned and are no more because they found many books dealing with these themes of the star gazers, these things being the root of idolatry, as we have made clear in Laws Concerning Idolatry. They erred and were drawn after them, imagining them to be glorious science and to be of great utility. They did not busy themselves with the art of war or with the conquest of lands, but imagined that those studies would help them. Therefore the prophets called them “fools and dolts” (Jer. 4:22). And truly fools they were, “for they walked after confused things that do not profit” (I Sam. 12:21 and Jer. 2:8)."
Huh? Maybe there was a message there too about which spiritual pursuits are most important.....but you compare that to Jews who are shabbat profaners, kofrim, and those who spend shabbat/simchat torah in the desert on drugs?
Sorry, but your professed rational judiasm is less rational than a two year old during a temper tantrum
Let me get this straight…you are calling Jews who died Al Kiddush HaShem, who we have witnesses gave their lives to save others and many said Shema….you are calling them drug users profane and idol worshippers. You are despicable. You don’t reach their ankles in kedusha. If I didn’t think Natan would censor my words I’d tell you to go F off and die. Come to think of it, I will. F OFF! Drop dead. Judaism doesn’t need people like you….
In an interview, one of the survivors said that we all had trouble running away because we were high on drugs and alcohol.
Being killed for being Jewish isn't a kiddush Hashem. It requires explicit kavanna that a person is giving up their life to protect the sanctity and honour of the Torah.
Sorry for that. I wasn't aware that poskim had such a view as a less senior Rav had given me his unsourced opinion that dying Al kiddush Hashem basically required a certain amount of Kavannah.
Oy, Chas Vishalom to think this. Anyone killed because he was a Jew has died על קדוש ה, nothing more to talk about. שרא ליה מריה, PLEASE, do not ever speak like this.
Idiot so children murdered for being Jewish aren’t being killed for kiddush hashem? Babies ripped out of a womb alive and beheaded aren’t martyrs? You’re such a complete idiot.
You are the idiot. The discussion pertained to the "partygoers"...people high on drugs and doing other sins on shabbat/yom tov out in the midbar...yes, those people are lowlifes, like it or not. The question becomes what their status is having being killed as Jews...the discussion was not about the babies.
But even that was not the main point.
The main point is and remains that we need to look at Yad Hashem. Exactly the opposite of what faker slifkin and company wants us to believe. We need to say, yesh din vyesh dayan.... even without prophecy. We need to try our best to connect the dots in honest ways, not contorted ways. רַק בְּעֵינֶ֣יךָ תַבִּ֑יט וְשִׁלֻּמַ֖ת רְשָׁעִ֣ים תִּרְאֶֽה Yes, that is what real Jews do.
Gosh, There are so many despicable comments on this blog from God-haters but this comment bothers you the most. The fact they get a kappara has nothing to do with what they did right before than. But of course you don't care about God, it's all about having Tikkun olam, Yad Vashem, and Matza ball soup. And if someone DARES insult your version of religion that thinks chareidim (even if misguided) are worse than those who violate every word of God all because they were killed against their will than they are scum of the earth.
By the way, the Rationalist Rambam says quite clearly that certain avairos don't get a kappara before one dies, and yes, dying al kiddush hashem atones for an avaira done by the person. I know you don't care about the Rambam either, but I'll write it for others here. You can just curse back.
1) I'm not arguing with that, but there are many levels. Does it mean that us living Jews, struggling all our life with the Yetzer Hara, trying our best to get close to Hashem, don't come to the toenails of people who were killed with out any mitzva prior? (some people here are saying that) Does it mean they have the title אין כל בריה יכול לעמות במחיצתם? The Gemara doesn't say so, it restricts it to the cases I mentioned.
2) No. כפרה means it wipes the sins clean, transforming sins is only with תשובה שלימה. See שערי תשובה and much explanation is given how that works.
Let me ask you: There are two people killed, one was a Tzaddik and the other was not. Do they have an equal portion in גן עדן? If yes, do you think that's even fair? As for why תשובה does the trick, it's because he worked for it.
BTW, R Moshe Feinstien said the reason we call 6,000,000 Kedoshim is because we hope they had a הרהור תשובה beforehand but he didn't say they are on the level of הרוגי לוד.
Anyway, that doesn't mean you're not allowed to acknowledge what they did before hand. I'm not saying to play God or be insensitive like others here, just putting it out there.
Keep your blood pressure under control there ...We don't need a heart attack...
Um, if someone is an idol worshiper and is then killed, does he then become not an idol worshipper? Did you study the sugyah or you are just a liberal secularist type?
I hope there were Jews who died al kidish Hashem...that there were Jews with shema on their lips and repentence in their hearts...and I hope they are all in Gan Eden...that would be amazing. I have no idea (although you seem to know all about it somehow)
And no matter who was killed, the enemy must be eradicated.
But your ideas of kedusha are your own. You have no idea or care about how things work...you couldn't quote a source if your life depended on it.
I hope Hashem considers their suffering as atonment...but your statements of fact, when you know nothing....mean nothing. Cursing doesn't help.
And they risk and give their lives to keep klal Yisrael safe. Who do you really think is closer to HaShem? I envy thier olam habah.
It’d would be interesting to see all those chareidi who declined to serve when they are in heaven and realize what a reward they gave up, and see how HaShem treasures their sacrifices. Boy are you all in for a surprise….
You abysmal idiot…there are scores of stories of people who stayed to help those injured and were killed. Others who escaped successfully and went back to help others and were murdered. You have no standing on Judaism compared to them.
You see, Jews got the Torah and had to keep mitzvos until Christians came along and told us all you have to do is believe and you'll go to heaven. Then came along David elon and said you don't have to keep the torah or believe, just join the IDF.
Your ideas of what rewards are given out, assuming you are a committed Jew, which would surprise me frankly, are very messed up. Their your own imagination.
Sure one who protects his people is deserving of reward, sure....but let me get this straight. Do you think one who profanes shabbat, etc or is a kofer ...is rewarded more than one who does keep shabbat and mitzvos but didn't serve in the army?
Do you beleive that one who is a kofer etc who served in the army, deserves less punishment than the frum yid who didn't serve?
If I got this wrong, please clarify the reward system because clearly you have a handle on it...
Oh sweet. So that means that if one violates shabbat and is chayiv skilah (stoning) or his wife doesn't go to the mikvah and is chayav kares, or if he is a kofer and is worst of all....but he works real hard in the army...then he must be getting more reward than non sinners because of his harder efforts in one good thing, never mind tens of thousands of horrific sins, correct?
This too needs clarification. If someone puts in a lot of time and effort sweat and pain and literally sacrifices his life to become a myrter killing jews. Does that mean his reward is great? Of course not! The reward is according to the effort when doing God's will which no one can seem to agree on what that is.
Yes I believe with a full belief a non observant Jew who risks their life and safety to protect other Jews and who gave their life in some cases are greater in HaShem’s Eyes than someone who uses Torah as an excuse to shirk their duty to protect us. And you can quote me on this to God
He will place the man who saved Jewish lives, but who also continually violated his many commands throughout his life...and didn't believe in the 13 ikkrim per Rambam (Rambam was a rationlist!) ...(and Rambam writes clearly in Moreh that a kofer is a kofer even if it is not his fault like he was raised that way...) ....he will place him above Jews that kept his commands because they didn't serve in the army (which by the way Is a very dangerous place for keeping Torah...per slifkins own daughters admission at length!) Never mind about the dangers to judiasm in the army.
I'm happy to speak to G-d about this if I get there before you do....If you get there first...have your people call my people....
The Rambam also doesn't disagree with the countless chapters of Neviim and Chazals that they were destroyed because of their sins, and not because they didn't have a strong enough army.
The rambam says all we have attributed. We can't ignore just something he says because we don't like it. We have to reconcile everything into a coherent position.
The way I see the Rambam's position:
1) Scholars are exempt from paying tax because their torah contributes to the protection of the city. Only scholars are exempt. Everyone else must pay. Because the torah protection alone is not enough. You require spiritual and physical hishtadlus.
2) The beis hamikash was destroyed because they did not have an army. That was the ingredient missing at that time. As opposed to torah learning.
3) The rambam says is that embarrassing a talmid chacham is a great sin and he points out that yerushayim was only destroyed after talmidei chachim were embarrassed. He is saying this is a possible spiritual imputes for the Yerushalim being destroyed.
I would like to point out that the Rambam had no issue calling the people who studied astrology instead of having an army "fools and dolts." Apparently he felt that they weren't talmeidei chachamim. Perhaps the talmeidi chachamim that were embarrassed at the time were the ones advocating for an army?
If you can do that, fine. But you can't ignore the overwhelming material from Tanach and Chazal about what the sin of the churban really was/were, based on that one line for the Rambam. It simply doesn't work that way.
That Rambam is תמוה, because there are many פסוקים מפורשים which describe the both מלכי ישראל and מלכי יהודה having armies and using them. He is as תמוה as any other Rambam which seems against a mefurash Gemara (much moreso), which we almost inevitably pasken against. Maybe one reconciliation would be that Rambam had a different girsa of Tanach than us, which didn't contain all those pesukim (I am being facetious, but on the other hand, it's quite silly to quote this Rambam as disputing the overwhelming Torah view of the cause of the Churban). Alternatively, for some reason the Rambam felt that they didn't use their armies as effectively as they could. The Tanach and Chazal are giving the ultimate reason, which was our sins, and the Rambam is explaining how that played out naturally, that this caused them to not use their militaries effectively.
Rambam is not תמוה, you are. He read all the psukim much better than you. He is talking specifically at times when the nation was declining...not under good kings....and then, even though they had armies, they were not focused enough....the astrology ruined them...there are psukim...such as in Yirmiyah...that indicate this.
Having said this, it in no way backs up slifkin.slifkin has zero concern for truth at all and twists everything at all times.
That was basically my resolution, if you can show me which pesukim you are talking about that indicated their armies weren't focused enough, I would appreciate.
I dont know if you will see it written black on white...but there seem to be many psukim that include this idea..for example the end of perek 3 in yirmiyah...וְהַבֹּ֗שֶׁת אָֽכְלָ֛ה אֶת־יְגִ֥יעַ אֲבוֹתֵ֖ינוּ מִנְּעוּרֵ֑ינוּ
And throughout perek 4..
and many psukim going forward ...tend to include this idea.
Ofcourse Rambam does not mean to negate the even bigger, open message of betraying G-d, and how that brought the calamity...as that is found throughout Tanach...but his idea seems to be that if they had stuck to faith, besides for how much that would help them, they would also have spent their time devoted to forms of hishtadlus that Hashem desires....instead of weakening off there too.
Maybe Meiselman should read about what happened in Kerem Shalom to the members of the Garin Torani there, and he should go pay a shiva call to the frum wives and children of Amichai Veitzen and Yedidya Raziel, true talmidai chachamim who lost their lives defending the families around them, and offer them an apology. Maybe Meiselman should listen to the message that Amichai sent his wife while he was in combat, asking her to daven with the kids and dance with them in honor of Simchas Torah, and not to look out the windows. What incredible chutzpah for this man to claim that he has has answers, he knows why it happened. What incredible haughtiness to pat yourself on the back and not only dance on the graves of those who died, but take a large portion of the Anglo Charedi world with you.
What an utter travesty.
It's quite clear that you didn't actually read what R. Meiselman wrote, and just relied entirely on NS's misrepresentation of it. That you, and others here, still do that, and think you're getting something truthful, is a great demonstration of why Hamas plays the disinformation game.
You are distorting what Rabbi Meiselman said, which is just normative Judaism. He wasn't talking about Amichai Veitzen and Yedidya Raziel but secular people.
As my good friend David Ohsie wrote defending those who danced on the graves when the Meron tragedy happened, "How is demanding answers for a public safety failure for all the deaths in group A demeaning to the family members of the victims of group A? It might be uncomfortable of the leaders of group A who had a hand in it not but quite clearly supportive of the victims and their loved ones. There are plenty of Israelis not waiting to criticize the govt for the its failures in dealing with Hamas and with the aftermath." https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/idf-exemptions-the-crucial-distinction/comment/42439983
If this is “normative Judaism” then Judaism is highly “Abnormal”, as are you…
Yes, I already know what you and your cronies think of Judaism. I am talking to the people who believe in Judaism.
Why did you accept " abnormal" as "wrong" or " bad"?
We believe in a rational Judaism. Do you believe God created Judaism to be irrational?
What you believe in is not Judaism at all, and has nothing to do with rationalists like the Rambam.
Lol. Pure ignorance
BTW, the troll goes even farther and thinks that people who demand answers from the govt about how their relatives were killed by Hamas are dancing on their relatives' graves. He's got a screw loose.
It's normative 'haredi' Judaism.
This has nothing to do with Charedi Judaism either. They'll make occasional remarks about stupid pig eaters when they are in a fight, but you don't find mainstream Charedi Rabbi attacks another group when a tragedy like this happens. This is a time when we are all one group. R Meiselman's rant is an outlier.
No, nothing to do with Chareidim, this was Judaism thousands of years before chareidim existed
Ah yes, the social class of tens of thousands of yeshivah Jews who did not serve but only studied Gemara.
No, the millions of faithful Jews from all walks of life who believed in Hashem and His Torah and observed it with devotion- as opposed to the kofrim and meshumadim
The point being made is that it is simply not true to claim that for thousands of years there was a social class of tens of thousands of Jews who learned full-time. The fact that you are incapable of addressing that point, and instead resort to speaking about kofrim, speaks volumes.
You have a wonderfully naive view of what Jewish societies have looked like through the millenia.
As always, everyone knows why God allowed tragedy to occur, and as always it's all because of someone else's alleged sins.
Nothing new under the sun.
Classic excuse.
If you waste enough time reading comments on this blog, it becomes clear that Slifkin's chasidim are often heretics or self-hating Jews or flat-out morons....it leaps out at you.
One here believes Hashem rarely gets involved with what is happening on earth! (afra lipumei), another attacks Jews with vengeance. He spews the old canard how the rabbis urged yidden to stay behind when the nazis were coming.... another genius who agrees with slifkin, (although even he prefers that the blog stick to animals) opines that the buddah idol at the drugfest (if it was there, not surprising though) is "because that whole generation (and more…) has been totally alienated by the antics of the Israeli charedim". Wow!
With such lunatics, who needs enemies?
Or maybe they have studied some Torah and realize that no one understands Providence confidently enough to make such predictions and that someone claims to understand is to be the least trusted. Especially when the explanation happens to confirm all of their prior biases.
Nobody understands enough to make predictions, but when the cause is obvious, we should say it like it is. Not ignore the obvious cause just because other things happen where the cause is not obvious.
Nobody understands enough, but when it suits our rhetorical purpose we'll pretend otherwise and trample some facts on the way.
The Torah goes on at length how straying from God and his law will be the cause of great calamity, and will cause the holy land to reject the Jews.
Is this something you believe in? If not just say say.
We also had a Holocaust and perhaps more committed Jews went to their death.I think it's a disgrace
to "G-d Think" . We have various ideas to speculate about causes natural and supernatural. We don't have the right to judge why people suffer and die.But we do have a responsibility to improve our behavior, our relationships, and our general spiritual approach. Also to take all natural means to prevent reoccurrence of the hurt and tragedy.ושמרת את נפשותיכם.
This is only an issue for people who think that Zionism is a sin. How could it be that we came back to the land and realized the blessings repeated in Shema every day for a robust harvest in our land, if the country was established by the accursed Zionists? Otherwise, it is easy to see the fulfillment of promises that we would return. That said, I would never assert that any particular success or failure is do to this or that sin or mitzvah. No one with any amount of knowledge claims to understand Providence well. All commentators struggle with the fact that bad things happen to good people and vice versa.
I don't think he does. See this conversation https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/hyraxes-vs-hamas/comment/41955386
David, this is is literally the exact opposite of what Torah teaches. It is precisely bc of statements like this that we hear דעת בעתי בתים היפך מדעת תורה. Sorry to say it.
The Torah says that Providence will be well understood and each good and bad event will be easily assignable to some specific sin or mitzvah? What is your source for that? I see the Rishonim recognizing various questions about Providence as difficult puzzles including its interaction with free will and why it seems not to operate as one would naively assume (Tzadik veRa Lo).
Rambam and many others say we are to introspect following tragedy, and not simply ascribe it to happenstance or geopolitics. No one - not a single one - claims to know for sure why such events happen. And you personally are not obligated to accept anyone's interpretation. But it is 100% the right thing to try.
Source please? You are misapplying whatever you are reading.
Claiming a calamity happened to others because of their sins is not introspection. The point is not to do a cause and effect analysis; it is to use it as an opportunity to do Teshuvah. It's worse Achzarius to blame the victim than saying that it is just the way of the world (which I have not heard a single group saying).
I'd like to see the source where Rambam excludes geopolitics or other practical considerations. In Rambam's view, one of the purposes of Mitzvos is to have a well regulated society so that people have time for contemplation, He explicitly blamed the Churban on practical considerations in one place (letter on Astrology).
The Rambam also says in his Moreh
that it is up to every person to take care of his life in accordance with the טבע. G-d usually doesn't protect one who doesn't protect himself.That is a Torah obligation.
There are many ami haaertz on here...but Garvin, many of your opnions are hefech daas Torah too so calm down.
You (slifkin) are a thoroughly dishonest person. Everything you wrote, without exception, is twisted to fit your personal views, without an ounce of genuine consideration for what the Torah would say, from any source whatsoever. That's the plain, honest truth.
If a Torah source fits your narrative you, you love it. If not, you play with it. With zero care whatsoever for any objective truth. You are a fake and a fraud.
Most people see you for who you are, and I bet your own relatives do too...your own family....even if they won't say it outright. It is clear as day.
The theology of Meiselman as you describe it here is very upsetting.
There is another gap in his logic which you didn't mention. By Meiselman's logic, the 2 religious-Zionist yishuvim in the area were protected by Divine protection because their behavior.
If this was true, given that the vast majority of residents of those Yishuvim serve in the army and a very small percentage are in full-time kollel, does this mean that it is not full-time learning which protects communities, but maybe some other type of Mitzva observance?
Maybe it is their commitment to developing and settling Eretz Yisrael that granted them Divine Protection, or maybe it was some other Mitzva that these specific Yishuvim have adopted. This would also explain why they received super-Natural Divine protection, yet the people who tragically died in Meron, many of whom were in Kollel or Yeshivot, did not receive such protection.
Or maybe we cannot fathom or understand the reason behind G-d's actions.
true
Too easy (for all of us) to look at another camp and say "they need to do more of this and less of that, but my camp needs to maintain the status quo".
Yes. We are all like this. My own feeling, after much reflection, is that one should think only of individual corrections he can make. Personal shortcomings that might possibly be overcome. To think in terms of communal changes is too hard, beyond our control, and we are all too entrenched in our political positions.
yep, I need to clean my own room kind of thing
But if I'm going to make the jump to communal changes, then I need to start with my own community
Agreed. שלום על ישראל.
Then why do charedim focus so much on Kiruv. They should work on themselves not others.
That's nice that it's your own reflection but frankly it's wrong. We need both.
So then without endorsing R Slifklin's critique, do you object to R Meiselman's writing here?
David, I cant tell if you were addressing me or someone else. If it was me, I will just repeat what I said to you above: that your comments, unfortunately, are exactly the opposite of what the Torah teaches. You dont have to accept R. Meiselman's conclusions, but his effort to learn and draw lessons from the tragedy are EXACTLY what we should be doing. And while individuals like you and me should focus on ourselves, a public figure like him should indeed be looking at public issues. If not him, who?
Well, there were thousands of Charedi Yeshiva bochurim that were spared, quite strangely.
According to what I heard, they were minutes away from Tifrach Yeshiva, yet ignored them. Yeshivos in Ofakim were ignored, even though they had a map of the Yeshiva and could have entered. They were never in the army, neither were most of their Roshei Yeshivos and Mashgichim.
"According to what I heard."
At least two Charedi Ofakim inhabitants were murdered:
https://www.bhol.co.il/news/1603823
https://www.bhol.co.il/news/1603895
@zookeeperguy i grew up with slifkin, he means well, although i agree with you its not a good idea to start trashing a massive gadol b'torah! stay safe mike!!
I read this and I think to myself, "Is there an IQ low enough to actually believe a word that is written here?" But I guess there is.
Without referring to any sources, merely by reading this article, you can prove the exact opposite of what Slifkin (which one?) is trying to prove.
Here is one example:
Rabbi Meiselman said:
“The total bankruptcy of the people who think they understand how the world works and how to defend the country and how to run a society without Torah and leave Hashem out of the picture, is being shown in the most extreme way for everyone to see.”
Somehow SLifkin manages to react with this gem:
First, note the irony of R. Meiselman criticizing others for being overconfident about understanding how the world works, while he is absolutely confident that he knows God’s own calculations.
Rabbi Meiselman criticizes those who leave God out of the equation, and that somehow is contradicted by himself for saying that God was involved.
Is it possible for a human brain to be that dense? This is a corkscrew that has been bent out of shape.
This is a lesson to all of us. An Am ha'aretz is not only ignorant of Torah, his thought processes are totally and completely warped. Something can stare at him in the face, and he will see the opposite.
When we daven Shacharis and thank Hashem for being מאיר לארץ ולדרים עליה ברחמים, we are thanking Him for giving us this light of Torah that shows us the world. If we did not have Torah, we would all be a bunch of Slifkins.
Meiselman does not speak for Hashem, nor is he the sole source of truth of how Hashem is 'part of the equation' - end of story.
Oh, you said 'end of story', so it's the end of the story. And that is why someone who claims to understand why Hashem did something is the same as someone who says that the world works without Hashem.
Learn some reading comprehension. Stories won't end so abruptly.
Btw, I never agreed with Rabbi Meiselman. But this blog post shows a breathtaking am ha'aratzus and low level of logic and simple understanding.
Surely a correct response to tragedy does not only involve practical steps on how to avoid it in the future such as increasing army vigilance and intelligence; but also prayer and tshuva and increasing Torah learning. The events that happened may have been because we underestimated Hamas And an appropriate response would include fortifying ourselves and not allowing it to happen again. But also we can not forget to introspection spiritually.
his drash was the opposite of introspection
Maybe the religious improvement we can make is stop calling every camp to our left evil and ever camp to our right crazy. Maybe a chief Rabbi shouldn't call others out as stupid pig eaters. I think that would be a great improvement.
"The sin was in thinking “kochi v’otzem yadi,” attributing too much power to the IDF and not enough to Hashem"
There's also the sin of attributing too much power to our Torah study and שבת observance, and not enough to Hashem.
Yes the בעלי נס who decide that 🕐chareidim don't have to serve because they know that armies are not that necessary and they can produce the requisite miracles.They can change the טבע and ignore the need for soldiers. They are the סומכים על הנס soldiers.
Nobody ignores the need for soldiers. The Halacha is that yeshiva students are exempt from the draft.
Please provide a source for that claim in Shulchan Aruch or other Halachic works.
Seems to directly contradict the Rambam, but if there are Rishonim or Achronim who disagree with Rambam's opinion, would be happy to see their opinion if you send a source
You sound like you have never looked at this sugya? See the Rambam at the end of Shemitta v'Yovel and the Derech Emunah there to start. This document has a nice rundown of the sources (although the mechaber is נוטה that they are chayev) https://tora-forum.co.il/threads/%D7%92%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A1-%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A2-%D7%A4-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94.2520/
Wow - whoever wrote that makes so many false assumptions it's surprising that anyone takes them seriously.
He says that none of what he ahs to say applies in a Pikuach Nefesh situation, and then says without any backing that the army has enough soldiers for so it is not Pikuach Nefesh.
He then goes on to say that Rambam says that Shevet Levi are exempt from war, but fails to explain how the Haredi society today are the same as Shevet Levi - they are neither all from shevet Levi,, nor do they dedicate their lives to TEACHING Torah to other segments of society.
He then claims, again without backing, that there are some Rishonim who say that Rambam's ruling about Levi'im being exempt from Milchemet Rishut also applies in a Milchemet mitzva, which is not the simple understanding of the Rambam.
At this point I stopped reading because I figured if he can make so many false assumptions before he even starts, there are probably better uses of my time.
If this is the level of learning in Haredi yeshivot, I can only be glad that the several years I spent in Yeshiva were not Haredi, and emphasized actually learning and analyzing the text.
All your examples of false assumptions are purely your own conjecture. It is up to you to prove that it is pikuach nefesh that chareidim join the army. The Rambam says that those who devote their lives to serving Hashem are like Shevet Levi. He doesn't say that all of Shevet Levi taught, or that this is a requirement for any particular person to be like Shevet Levi.
Looks like you didn't even look at the Rambam, let alone the document. This is what you consider "analyzing a text"? We are not even talking about learning here, just simple reading, which apparently you cannot do.
Have a good day.
So You say.
Where is this halocho codified and what is the halachik definition of 'yeshiva student'?
It was codified by all the Gedolim who paskened that yeshiva students are patur. If you would like to see sources for that, this has a nice rundown (although the mechaber is נוטה that they are chayev) https://tora-forum.co.il/threads/%D7%92%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A1-%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A2-%D7%A4-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94.2520/
So all you can point me to is some forum on the treife internet . Great stuff. And you haven't told me where I can find a halachik definition of 'yeshiva student' either which is a fundamental part of this pesak. Without that, the whole thing is meaningless (is it buried somewhere in that mass of text?)
In any event, that is not my discussion, it is others' discussions. My beef is with this 'torah protects' sound-bite excuse. When every honest person knows the real reason is lifestyle, culture and politics.
What is unclear about "yeshiva student"? I pointed you to a document, not the forum. Torah protects is real, as we have shown from many sources https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
This is nonsense and you know it. Furthermore - are they exempt ad infinitum? Should they be exempt from codified social service in lieu of army service?
Which Halacha invented 'social service in lieu of army service'?
As I wrote on the other blog, if someone claims that Bochurim are obligated to fight for themselves and their brethren, equal to the rest of the country, that is one thing. But if they are demanding that those bochurim do 'community service' or join 'the Army' and become radio announcers, base guitarists, or some other unimportant job, it shows that they care not a whit about any Halachos or mutual obligations. They just want Charedim not to exist, and use specious claims to push their agenda.
Yes, because becoming a 'base' (sic) guitarist is what I meant, instead of say, a paramedic, army chaplain, engineer, operations resource or any other beneficial role. Instead you choose the tritest of examples to build up your own straw man argument. I understand why some Haredim don't serve or are fearful of a 'secular' army and I believe in some form of accommodation.
Wow!
You have an issue against my Autocorrect now?
If someone is satisfied with Charedi Sherut Leumi, he cannot claim to be demanding שויון בנטל or some kind of fairness.
From previous interactions with you, I believe you don't accept the basics of Judaism, so halachic discussion with you is pointless.
Seems like this your response to most yidden - frum or not - who you disagree with or who challenge you.
Most of the ones on this site who take Slifkin's side have similar beliefs to him, does that surprise you?
Others disagree. פיקוח נפש remember.Your halacha dismisses
I know that, but I don't think פיקוח נפש is their rationale. If פיקוח נפש was such an important consideration in this discussion, you should have all emigrated to a safer country. The rationale is that מלחמת מצוה requires everybody to enlist and is docheh פיקוח נפש.
No it’s not.
"There's also the sin of attributing too much power to our Torah study and שבת observance, and not enough to Hashem."
Unlike the people who have believe in the kochi v'otzem yadi of the IDF, I don't think anybody attributes magical power to Torah study and Shabbos. Rather, they understand, as the Torah makes clear in countless places, that Hashem saves us in the merit Shemiras HaTorah and Talmud Torah. Of course, if you don't believe in the basics of Judaism, you won't believe that either.
The Rambam indicates in his Moreh that Hashgacha Protit is also related to the intellectual development of the individual who is aware and protects himself from natural disaster. In other words the דיני הטבע matter.אין סומכים על הנס
man's deal with life considering the
טבע. Your halacha believes that in certain instances like- learning Torah , we can forget about the natural order and expect miracles,i.e. סומכים על הנס. I don't. I believe we have to sacrifice for Torah learning etc. but we don't put people in terrible jeopardy. Serve in the Army ,etc.
.
Yeshiva students are not putting anybody in serious jeopardy. That's nonsense that Slifkin filled your ears with. The very State of Israel was founded with serious jeopardy and only succeeded with the help of Hashem, in the merit of Shomrei Torah.
So now you attribute the success of nascent Haganah - overwhelmingly secular, if not agnostic/atheistic - with the help of Hashem?
Of course, in the merit of the Shomrei Torah. Certainly not in the merit of the atheists, I can tell you that!
Laughable and arrogant - but mostly an insult to those who were martyred to protect the 'Shomrei Torah' in their gilded castles of lerning.
True, but where does it state that it should replace working or serving in the army?
Since we get asked this question so often, we probably need an IM post collecting the sources.
About the army, there is a nice collection here. Probably nothing you haven't seen before https://tora-forum.co.il/threads/%D7%92%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A1-%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A2-%D7%A4-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94.2520/
jumping in late, i don't think anyone should be pointing fingers, except to take inward messages. perhaps Rabbi Meiselman was doing just that, idk, i'm not here to defend him
but my main concern is what happens in these blogs. we can't seem to remember ourselves. thank God I appreciate what the importance of Torah to the Jews is. but even those that don't are still a a part of the fold. and they even have many valid points.
let's remember אחינו כל בית ישראל הנתונים בצרה ובשביה and come together.
i do want to copy a comment i made below though, civilly:
______________________________
Natan Slifkin
10 hrs ago
Author
Your talk about Shas and mesorah and "classical Judaism" is just hilarious. There is absolutely nothing traditional about having hundreds of thousands of people learning in yeshivah, avoiding milchemes mitzvah and demanding support from others. It all grew out of a horaas shaah after the Holocaust.
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shulman
just now
do you know what the mesorah is after? perhaps if we explained what the mesorah is, it would help clarify things.
are you aware that Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov were completely and totally immersed in thinking about God and His will and laws 24/7 without a single break? it is they who we try to emulate. Moshe Rabbeinu was the same thing. any of the neviim listed in the Rambam's chain of mesorah, though perhaps not on the level of the holy avos and Moshe, were also completely engaed in thinking about God and His will and laws. Any single person in the entire Mesorah until the chasimas hatalmud, our leaders, our greats, our goals, were completely immersed in Torah. that is what they all had in common. move right through to the rishonim. it got more difficult and the Rambam bemoaned his inability to be like Avraham, Yiitzchak and Yaakov, but compared to anyone we know, he was wholly surounded by Torah and God for his every waking hour and until his very last breath. skip to our acharonim, poskim, who couldn't reach the level of commitment as their predecessors. but, by God, did they try. they mastered God's laws, reviewing every precious page of the Talmud hundreds of careful, loving, painstaking times. delving into the intricacies of Gods laws, because they hearkened and couldn't get enough of His every word, which they hung onto with their blood, tears and life.
this is what our precious mesorah is.
within that mesorah, the mesorah of being close to God Almighty, there is a lot of color. such as if chazal knew science, such as if they even cared about science, such as the role of philosophy and development of the nations swirling around our insulated world of God's word, such as whether more people should work, such as if we should be intimately involved with the outside world or if we should keep our strengths insulated and strong. but the base is God and His Torah.
today many can't get close to God even in the beis midrash until they leave their outside world behind. so the only place God exists is with the four cubits of halacha, in the beis midrash.
to that i say the more the merrier. let's keep the mesorah alive, by having our Torah be the center, as it always was and always will be
Once Slifkin opened up the floor....lets add other ideas that are worth thinking about....
Never forget the chilul Hashem Netanyahu made when he yelled against Hashem, shortly before the massacre.... all honest people understood how wrong it was (slifkin loved it and justified it, but that proves, if anything, how wrong it was). One thing is for certain. He needs Hashem now more than ever.
Never forget how mere days before the massacre, on Yom Kippur of all days, secular crazies in Tel Aviv went ape when Jews wanted to pray! On Yom Kippur! How low can one go? One things is for certain. They need Hashem now more than ever.
I'm not sure what you are referring to re: Netanyahu.
I do agree that the disruption of prayers and assaults on Yom Kippur were a horrible thing.
You are making a tremendous mistake here, as follows. Rabbi Meiselman was not trying to use this incident to prove the message of the Torah, that God saves us in the merit of Torah and ח"ו otherwise in retribution for the transgression of Torah. He already believes in this message of the Torah, and was speaking to an audience who believes it. When somebody has this basic emunah, he is supposed to interpret the situation accordingly. This is really just standard Torah hashkafa, which you seem to have unfortunately forgotten when you turned to secularism. Sometimes, the interpretation is difficult, such as in the case of the Holocaust and the Har Nof massacre. But in this case, it's really easy.
All your objections about how this can be explained naturally and with statistics totally ignores normative Jewish hashkafa, expressed succintly by the Rambam in Hilchos Taanis: אֲבָל אִם לֹא יִזְעֲקוּ וְלֹא יָרִיעוּ אֶלָּא יֹאמְרוּ דָּבָר זֶה *מִמִּנְהַג הָעוֹלָם* אֵרַע לָנוּ וְצָרָה זוֹ *נִקְרָה נִקְרֵית*. הֲרֵי זוֹ דֶּרֶךְ אַכְזָרִיּוּת וְגוֹרֶמֶת לָהֶם לְהִדַּבֵּק בְּמַעֲשֵׂיהֶם הָרָעִים. וְתוֹסִיף הַצָּרָה צָרוֹת אֲחֵרוֹת.
Your invocation of Iyov is amusing but unfortunate, because Iyov was kofer in the hashgacha of Hashem. You should read until the end of Iyov where he does teshuva, and take a lesson from him and do the same yourself.
EDIT: Also, it is good that Rabbi Meiselman is a mathematician and understands statistics better than you do. If only one out of 22 towns was attacked, it would be correct that 20 of the 22 are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked. But when at least seven were attacked and taken control of, there is about a 50% chance that at least one of the 2 frum towns would be attacked.
Yes but not necessarily in the way you think.
" Not one incident happened in any of the frum yishuvim."
1) Have these frum yishuvim returned to their normal routine? Or are they still evacuated? They are not suffering? What it the sin of these שבת observant communities that they have become refugees?
2) Some weeks ago, when the UTJ/Shas had a fit due to Bibi's Holocaust comments. They pointed out that the Yishuv was ALMOST wiped out by the Nazis, and therefore the Holocaust in no way vindicated the Zionists. Well, these yishuvim were also ALMOST wiped out.
2 is totally consistent with standard Torah hashkafa. The strategy of sending everybody to Israel (even if it was remotely realistic) did not at all put them out of the reach of the Germans. It was only thanks to the outpouring of Tefilos (and Hashem sending the Allied forces, along with the Soviet army distracting the Germans on the eastern front, I hope you thank them) that the Yishuv was saved.
Is that a question on what I said?
When God plans to punish the righteous along with the wicked, then yes. I don't think the Gemara means when He is planning to only punish the wicked. In that case, the righteous can be spared (like Noach).
The instinct of those right wingers is to look for divine theodicy. The instinct of left wingers, such as the Times of Israel publisher, has been to write editorials against Bibi and Ben Gvir. And the instinct of this blog has been to fall back onto anti-charedi hatred.
Can you really not see that you're all one and the same?
I'm not blaming charedim for the massacre.
Please don't! If you blame them for the massacre, what would we do?
We would be forced to believe you due to your objectivity concerning all things charedim....
If you blamed them our lives would be irrevocably ruined! Slifkin, please do not blame them. Don't do it!
Not yet.
And the Charedim haven't piled on Bibi. The point is that people have simply fallen back to the same old posture and positions they've always had. (Of course, these are just a small minority in all cases. Most people are focused purely on the way.)
He didn't say you did. He said you fall back onto anti-charedi hatred - louder and more hateful (and more idiotic) than ever...
"And even if it were mostly secular Jews who were killed"..
Why are facts so difficult for you to comprehend. The reality is that less that 1% of the victims were frum and the overwhelming majority of the were left-wing liberals, some of them even pro-Palestinian. Oh, also there was a literal Buddha Statue at the drug-fuled Simchas Torah rave.
Does this make this pogrom less tragic, of course not! Even in Lakewood and Benei Berak they are saying Tehilim. However, as a self-billed rationalist don't shy away from the facts.
And the victims at Meron were all charedi. So what does that show?
It showed, in your words, that Chareidi leadership is bankrupt and irresponsible. The drug fueled Buddha party, which may not exactly have been ratzon Hashem, shows that secular leadership is bankrupt and irresponsible. (Of course, the tragedy is horrifying and unjustifiable).
At least that would be the logic.
This is nonsense as the SuperNova party is not an extension of any specific secular policy or belief.
I agree.
https://vinnews.com/2023/10/26/letter-from-rav-yosef-spinner-on-the-supposed-cause-of-the-festival-massacre/
Interesting that they took it down, i thought it was informative: It's cached here https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vlPDCbbhbqEJ:https://vinnews.com/2023/10/26/letter-from-rav-yosef-spinner-on-the-supposed-cause-of-the-festival-massacre
As I said, it we have no idea what it shows... My issue was your 'even if they were mostly secular..' comment which is extremely unfactual.
PS the Meron tradgedy, coming months after Rav Shmuel Auerbach's sudden death (which followed Rav AL Steinman's) many took as a message about the huge divisions in the Charedi community - but until a prophet comes along we can't know for sure!
Rav Shteinman died December 2017
Rav Auerbach - February 2018
Meron tragedy- April 2021
ye you're right. dunno where i got that from..
People who died at the concert probably wouldn't want Tehillim said for them. Fanatical devotion is what killed them in the first place. They would prefer people to sing peace anthems in their memory and search their souls to make the words come true.
What do these peace anthems bring? More death. More opportunities for Muslim terror. Apeasemenr dosent work with these animals. We need to pray to Hashem thay we succeed in eradicating evil and avenge our brothers souls. Your peace fantasy just kills us.
Rav Zevin wrote this in 1948.
רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא" (ב"ב, ז' ב')? רבש"ע, כלום מותר לסמוך על הנס במקום של סכנת נפשות ממש ולומד שאין רבנן צריכים שמירה? וחברון של תרפ"ט (לא תקום פעמים צרה) תוכיח, כלום לא נפלו לפני בני עולה צעירים קדושים וטהורים, כזוהר הרקיע מזהירים, מבחירי הישיבה וחכמיה? במטותא מינייכו רבנן, הקדושים ההם היו "צריכי נטירותא", או לא היו "צריכי נטירותא"? והרי הם הם אותם האויבים-הערבים שפרעו ורצחו אז והם הם אותם הפורעים ורוצחים עכשיו! ואם אמרו על "נטירותא" של בנין חומה וכיוצא, ובזמנים רגילים, במטרת שמירה מפני שונאים העלולים לבוא (ראה רש"י, ב"מ ק"ח א') מה זה עניין לזמן של סכנת נפשות ולחובה של מלחמת מצוה? הגיעו בעצמכם: הנה יצאה הוראה מ"משמר העם" להדביק את השמשות של כל החלונות בבד או נייר משוסםסכנת הפצצה. כלום יעלה על הדעת שתלמידי חכמים לא יעשו כזאת בטענה ש"רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא"? כלום היה אף מי שהוא מהעוסקים בתורה שהשתמטו ממילוי הוראה זו? ולמה עזבו תלמידי-החכמים, יחד עם שאר אחינו בני ישראל, את שכונות-הספר הנפגעות מיריות הצלפים ולא השתמשו בסגולה זו של "רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא"? וכי רק בשביל זה בלבד שבמקרים אלה אי-אפשר לסמוך על אחרים? וכי זוהי דעת התורה? ולמה אפוא להשתמש שלא בזמנה ושלא במקומה באמרה זו של "נטירותא", שכשהיא לעצמה, בזמנה הנכון ובמקומה המתאים, היא פנינה נחמדה.
Where can I find this?
https://www.herzog.ac.il/vtc/0026394.doc
I'm a tremendous admirer of R Zevin. But I'll just note that what wrote further on in that piece
"מבחינה מעשית יש אולי חשש שהישיבות יתרוקנו בעזוב רוב התלמידים את מוסדות האולפנא, ותורה מה תהא עליה. אבל לשם כך יש להיכנס במשא ומתן עם מוסדות הגיוס על הסדרים מעשיים ידועים, ותמיד אפשר למצא את הדרך להקלות ולהגבלות. עד כמה
"שידוע לי, הייתה נכונות כזאת מצד אותם המוסדות.
"
might have been true at the time, but has been seriously eroded since then. No less that Dr Slifkin's newfound hero R Eliezer Melamed found out the hard way that the army can be less than fully accommodating to religious needs. And in some cases they're downright hostile.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%96%D7%A8_%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%93#%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90%D7%99_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%91_%D7%A4%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%93%D7%94
בפולמוס סביב "שירת נשים בצבא", תומך הרב מלמד, בניגוד לעמדת הרבנות הצבאית, ביציאתם של חיילים דתיים מאירועים שבהם מופיעה זמרת, גם כאשר מדובר בטקס רשמי וממלכתי, ואף אם יקבלו פקודה מפורשת להישאר[43].
כנגד הטענה שסירוב פקודה יפגע באחדות הצבא ואף עשוי להוביל להתפרקותו, טוען הרב מלמד שההפך הוא הנכון. רוב גדול של עם ישראל – כולל החרדים והמתנחלים – יזדהה הרבה יותר עם הצבא, אם יהיה ברור שפקודותיו אינן סותרות את ההלכה וסמכותו אינה מנסה להתחרות בסמכותה[44]. גם רוב המשרתים בצבא שאינם שומרי מצוות, מזדהים הרבה יותר עם ערכי השמירה על העם והארץ ועם מורשת ישראל שביסודו של הצבא, מאשר עם החובה הפורמלית לציית. רק מיעוט שמאלני קטן איננו מזדהה עם הערכים הללו ואין צריך לחשוש כל כך מתגובתו[45]. אדרבא, סירוב הפקודה ישיב את הצבא לערכיו המקוריים של נאמנות למורשת ישראל והתמקדות במלחמה באויבי ישראל, ולא בניסיון למצוא חן בעיני הגויים[46]. אין צורך לחשוש מ"מדרון חלקלק" בעניין זה, מפני שאין מדובר על סירוב לפקודה בעת לחימה (שאז יש לציית גם במצבים של חוסר הסכמה[47]), אלא לוויכוח עקרוני בין עמדות שהתבררו היטב בזירה הציבורית. כמו כן, הכל מבינים שיש הבדל בין סירוב לפעול כנגד יהודים או כנגד ההלכה, לבין סירוב להילחם באויבי ישראל. כפי שאין דואגים מן הכפיפות של הצבא לבג"ץ אף על פי שהוא מייצג עמדה רחוקה מאוד מזו של מורשת ישראל, ואף שהוא מתערב בפעילותו של הצבא ולא רק בשמירת זכויותיהם של חיילים פרטיים, כך אין צורך לדאוג מ"כפיפות" של הצבא לרבנים"[48].
בתגובה לעמדותיו בנושא סירוב פקודה ביטל שר הביטחון אהוד ברק את מסלול ה"הסדר" מישיבת הר ברכה. בתמוז ה'תשע"ג חידש מחליפו של ברק, משה יעלון, את המסלול בישיבה[49]
I was quoting Rav Zevin to bring out the point that he held that the Gemara in Bava Basra doesn’t apply to war time.
That's fair. I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you.
I should note that R Zevin has a much longer discussion on the topic in his le'or ha'halacha. Been a while since I looked at it, but I don't recall him making such sweeping claims there.
https://www.hamadaf-y.co.il/%D7%97%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94/%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%93-%D7%91%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94/%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%91-%D7%96%D7%95%D7%95%D7%99%D7%9F/
It must also be noted that the situation now isn't nearly as dire as it was in 1948. Without minimizing the horror of the atrocities committed by Hamas, there was never any real threat to Israel's existence writ large. As Dr Slifkin correctly noted, "The IDF easily had the power to stop Hamas doing such a thing (and it is very unlikely to ever happen again); they just didn’t take Hamas seriously enough to place sufficient forces there, and they were not organized enough in their response."
I noted resistance to religious accommodations in the army on the part of Avigdor Lieberman here.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/this-n-that/comment/42314660
Rav Zevin was not a fanatical Lakewood charedi yeshivish 'guy' was he?
They will tell you 'he is not from our beis hamedrash'. And Chevron was a 'hester ponim' or 'shema yigrom hacheit' or similar. They are very good at justifying these things retrospectively, but still maintain it is perfectly ok to rely on 'torah protects' tomorrow! While seeing no difficulty in simultaneously demanding extra guards for the torah towns of beiter and kiryat seifer in times of heightened alert. Anything can be justified with complicated yeshivish pilpul and sound bites from assorted random cherry-picked out of context quotes.
A chasidish friend of ours (yes, i have some!) told us last week that his family in RBS was safe “because the army is guarding all the roads”.
At a time when most of Israeli Jewry is united, is now really the appropriate time to reignite your personal vendetta with Rabbi Meiselman?
At a time when most of Israeli Jewry is in mourning over the massacre and united in the need to fight, is now really the appropriate time to declare that it is Divine punishment for secular and leftist Jews?
Fair.
Swing and a miss. You did NOT answer his question.
He said what everyone knows to be true...you are biased and you continually seek revenge as much as possible (which is against Torah no matter who else does it...proving you are not a genuine frum yid...one of MANY proofs anyhow)...and this ofcourse is about personal vendetta like usual.....and it
IS a horrific time for it, which is his excellent point.
Putting aside for a moment your personal hatred for many yidden and your constant push for revenge and your immaturity.....please answer the damn question!
Why is NOW not the wrong time for this? YOU yes YOU are creating animosity at one of the worst times in recent history....yes YOU... and for personal reasons which we all recognize....
You are the fraud...no matter what you say. You are igniting hatred and we all know it. Shame on you. Shame on your pathetic life.
This must be one of the most ironic posts of all time
Levi you are ranting at Natan and calling him pathetic and immature. I could ask the same of you. Why is your timing more appropriate than his?
because he is responding to slifkins post?
Rabbi Slifkin - I would like some clarification on your view of Divine messaging and/or divine punishment in general. Do you believe there is such a thing as a "divine message" period? If yes, what is the process used to interpret what that message is? Do you believe god is "ok" with a secular lifestyle? If not and god does not send messages can't the person claim to god after 120 "but you never told me this is your will"? "How am i supposed to know the truth if you (god) don't tell me and everyone has different opinions?"
Also, The same Rambam who Rabbi Meiselmen say paskens Torah scholars are exempt because their Torah contributes to the protection of the city also said in his letter to the community of Marseille that the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed because our forefathers studied astrology instead being involved in the art of war and the conquest of land. The Rambam does not say the should have been learning torah instead. meisa avot siman labanim.
"This is why our kingdom was lost and our Temple was destroyed and why we were brought to this; for our fathers sinned and are no more because they found many books dealing with these themes of the star gazers, these things being the root of idolatry, as we have made clear in Laws Concerning Idolatry. They erred and were drawn after them, imagining them to be glorious science and to be of great utility. They did not busy themselves with the art of war or with the conquest of lands, but imagined that those studies would help them. Therefore the prophets called them “fools and dolts” (Jer. 4:22). And truly fools they were, “for they walked after confused things that do not profit” (I Sam. 12:21 and Jer. 2:8)."
https://www.mesora.org/LettertoMarseille.htm
Moshe
And Charedim read Zohar and go to Meron and Uman, all worthless pursuits. Maybe God is trying to tell them something too…
Huh? Maybe there was a message there too about which spiritual pursuits are most important.....but you compare that to Jews who are shabbat profaners, kofrim, and those who spend shabbat/simchat torah in the desert on drugs?
Sorry, but your professed rational judiasm is less rational than a two year old during a temper tantrum
Let me get this straight…you are calling Jews who died Al Kiddush HaShem, who we have witnesses gave their lives to save others and many said Shema….you are calling them drug users profane and idol worshippers. You are despicable. You don’t reach their ankles in kedusha. If I didn’t think Natan would censor my words I’d tell you to go F off and die. Come to think of it, I will. F OFF! Drop dead. Judaism doesn’t need people like you….
In an interview, one of the survivors said that we all had trouble running away because we were high on drugs and alcohol.
Being killed for being Jewish isn't a kiddush Hashem. It requires explicit kavanna that a person is giving up their life to protect the sanctity and honour of the Torah.
"Being killed for being Jewish isn't a kiddush Hashem."
Many poskim don't agree with your claim:
The "Kedoshim" Status of the Holocaust Victims
https://repository.yu.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.12202/4637/Gesher v. 9 1985.pdf
Sorry for that. I wasn't aware that poskim had such a view as a less senior Rav had given me his unsourced opinion that dying Al kiddush Hashem basically required a certain amount of Kavannah.
Oy, Chas Vishalom to think this. Anyone killed because he was a Jew has died על קדוש ה, nothing more to talk about. שרא ליה מריה, PLEASE, do not ever speak like this.
Who said he's wrong. Do you have a source?
The gemorah says such a person gets a kaparah...now you are adding the kididsh Hashem part....
The gemorah talks about the great level of those who die willfully on kiddush Hashem...that is something else altogether......
I get you want it to be considered al kidush Hashem, I do too....but just because you consider that automatic doesn't make it true.
Idiot so children murdered for being Jewish aren’t being killed for kiddush hashem? Babies ripped out of a womb alive and beheaded aren’t martyrs? You’re such a complete idiot.
You are the idiot. The discussion pertained to the "partygoers"...people high on drugs and doing other sins on shabbat/yom tov out in the midbar...yes, those people are lowlifes, like it or not. The question becomes what their status is having being killed as Jews...the discussion was not about the babies.
But even that was not the main point.
The main point is and remains that we need to look at Yad Hashem. Exactly the opposite of what faker slifkin and company wants us to believe. We need to say, yesh din vyesh dayan.... even without prophecy. We need to try our best to connect the dots in honest ways, not contorted ways. רַק בְּעֵינֶ֣יךָ תַבִּ֑יט וְשִׁלֻּמַ֖ת רְשָׁעִ֣ים תִּרְאֶֽה Yes, that is what real Jews do.
Gosh, There are so many despicable comments on this blog from God-haters but this comment bothers you the most. The fact they get a kappara has nothing to do with what they did right before than. But of course you don't care about God, it's all about having Tikkun olam, Yad Vashem, and Matza ball soup. And if someone DARES insult your version of religion that thinks chareidim (even if misguided) are worse than those who violate every word of God all because they were killed against their will than they are scum of the earth.
By the way, the Rationalist Rambam says quite clearly that certain avairos don't get a kappara before one dies, and yes, dying al kiddush hashem atones for an avaira done by the person. I know you don't care about the Rambam either, but I'll write it for others here. You can just curse back.
" The fact they get a kappara has nothing to do with what they did right before than. "
1) The fact they get a kappara means that they can be called קדושים
2) Please define what kappara means? Doesn't כפרה, to put in fancifully, change the past? In some cases doesn't כפרה transform willful sins into מצות?
1) I'm not arguing with that, but there are many levels. Does it mean that us living Jews, struggling all our life with the Yetzer Hara, trying our best to get close to Hashem, don't come to the toenails of people who were killed with out any mitzva prior? (some people here are saying that) Does it mean they have the title אין כל בריה יכול לעמות במחיצתם? The Gemara doesn't say so, it restricts it to the cases I mentioned.
2) No. כפרה means it wipes the sins clean, transforming sins is only with תשובה שלימה. See שערי תשובה and much explanation is given how that works.
Let me ask you: There are two people killed, one was a Tzaddik and the other was not. Do they have an equal portion in גן עדן? If yes, do you think that's even fair? As for why תשובה does the trick, it's because he worked for it.
BTW, R Moshe Feinstien said the reason we call 6,000,000 Kedoshim is because we hope they had a הרהור תשובה beforehand but he didn't say they are on the level of הרוגי לוד.
Anyway, that doesn't mean you're not allowed to acknowledge what they did before hand. I'm not saying to play God or be insensitive like others here, just putting it out there.
Keep your blood pressure under control there ...We don't need a heart attack...
Um, if someone is an idol worshiper and is then killed, does he then become not an idol worshipper? Did you study the sugyah or you are just a liberal secularist type?
I hope there were Jews who died al kidish Hashem...that there were Jews with shema on their lips and repentence in their hearts...and I hope they are all in Gan Eden...that would be amazing. I have no idea (although you seem to know all about it somehow)
And no matter who was killed, the enemy must be eradicated.
But your ideas of kedusha are your own. You have no idea or care about how things work...you couldn't quote a source if your life depended on it.
I hope Hashem considers their suffering as atonment...but your statements of fact, when you know nothing....mean nothing. Cursing doesn't help.
A Yid killed by a Goy has a Kappara וכפר אדמתו עמו, but that does not change the reason he was killed.
You have a source that even a kofer gets a kapparah (not the same as a martyr)?
Prove it instead of your say so.
And they risk and give their lives to keep klal Yisrael safe. Who do you really think is closer to HaShem? I envy thier olam habah.
It’d would be interesting to see all those chareidi who declined to serve when they are in heaven and realize what a reward they gave up, and see how HaShem treasures their sacrifices. Boy are you all in for a surprise….
Who risked a life?
They went for a party and were killed during the party. Nothing to do with saving lives.
You abysmal idiot…there are scores of stories of people who stayed to help those injured and were killed. Others who escaped successfully and went back to help others and were murdered. You have no standing on Judaism compared to them.
We are not talking about those people.
The attack was against the party goers. They were not about to save any lives.
Those that went to save lives are in a different category, and have nothing to do with this discussion now.
You see, Jews got the Torah and had to keep mitzvos until Christians came along and told us all you have to do is believe and you'll go to heaven. Then came along David elon and said you don't have to keep the torah or believe, just join the IDF.
Your ideas of what rewards are given out, assuming you are a committed Jew, which would surprise me frankly, are very messed up. Their your own imagination.
Sure one who protects his people is deserving of reward, sure....but let me get this straight. Do you think one who profanes shabbat, etc or is a kofer ...is rewarded more than one who does keep shabbat and mitzvos but didn't serve in the army?
Do you beleive that one who is a kofer etc who served in the army, deserves less punishment than the frum yid who didn't serve?
If I got this wrong, please clarify the reward system because clearly you have a handle on it...
The reward system is clarified by Chazal. לפום צערא אגרא
Oh sweet. So that means that if one violates shabbat and is chayiv skilah (stoning) or his wife doesn't go to the mikvah and is chayav kares, or if he is a kofer and is worst of all....but he works real hard in the army...then he must be getting more reward than non sinners because of his harder efforts in one good thing, never mind tens of thousands of horrific sins, correct?
This too needs clarification. If someone puts in a lot of time and effort sweat and pain and literally sacrifices his life to become a myrter killing jews. Does that mean his reward is great? Of course not! The reward is according to the effort when doing God's will which no one can seem to agree on what that is.
Yes I believe with a full belief a non observant Jew who risks their life and safety to protect other Jews and who gave their life in some cases are greater in HaShem’s Eyes than someone who uses Torah as an excuse to shirk their duty to protect us. And you can quote me on this to God
Ok I will be happy to quote you on this to G-d.
He will place the man who saved Jewish lives, but who also continually violated his many commands throughout his life...and didn't believe in the 13 ikkrim per Rambam (Rambam was a rationlist!) ...(and Rambam writes clearly in Moreh that a kofer is a kofer even if it is not his fault like he was raised that way...) ....he will place him above Jews that kept his commands because they didn't serve in the army (which by the way Is a very dangerous place for keeping Torah...per slifkins own daughters admission at length!) Never mind about the dangers to judiasm in the army.
I'm happy to speak to G-d about this if I get there before you do....If you get there first...have your people call my people....
The Rambam also says Yerushalayim was destroyed because they didn't have enough respect for Torah scholars.
עָוֹן גָּדוֹל הוּא לְבַזּוֹת אֶת הַחֲכָמִים אוֹ לִשְׂנוֹאתָן. לֹא חָרְבָה יְרוּשָׁלַיִם עַד שֶׁבִּזּוּ בָּהּ תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברי הימים ב לו טז) "וַיִּהְיוּ מַלְעִבִים בְּמַלְאֲכֵי הָאֱלֹהִים וּבוֹזִים דְּבָרָיו וּמִתַּעְתְּעִים בִּנְבִאָיו". כְּלוֹמַר בּוֹזִים מְלַמְּדֵי דְּבָרָיו. וְכֵן זֶה שֶׁאָמְרָה תּוֹרָה (ויקרא כו טו) "אִם בְּחֻקֹּתַי תִּמְאָסוּ", מְלַמְּדֵי חֻקּוֹתַי תִּמְאֲסוּ. וְכָל הַמְבַזֶּה אֶת הַחֲכָמִים אֵין לוֹ חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא וַהֲרֵי הוּא בִּכְלַל (במדבר טו לא) "כִּי דְבַר ה' בָּזָה":
The Rambam also doesn't disagree with the countless chapters of Neviim and Chazals that they were destroyed because of their sins, and not because they didn't have a strong enough army.
The rambam says all we have attributed. We can't ignore just something he says because we don't like it. We have to reconcile everything into a coherent position.
The way I see the Rambam's position:
1) Scholars are exempt from paying tax because their torah contributes to the protection of the city. Only scholars are exempt. Everyone else must pay. Because the torah protection alone is not enough. You require spiritual and physical hishtadlus.
2) The beis hamikash was destroyed because they did not have an army. That was the ingredient missing at that time. As opposed to torah learning.
3) The rambam says is that embarrassing a talmid chacham is a great sin and he points out that yerushayim was only destroyed after talmidei chachim were embarrassed. He is saying this is a possible spiritual imputes for the Yerushalim being destroyed.
I would like to point out that the Rambam had no issue calling the people who studied astrology instead of having an army "fools and dolts." Apparently he felt that they weren't talmeidei chachamim. Perhaps the talmeidi chachamim that were embarrassed at the time were the ones advocating for an army?
If you can do that, fine. But you can't ignore the overwhelming material from Tanach and Chazal about what the sin of the churban really was/were, based on that one line for the Rambam. It simply doesn't work that way.
That Rambam is תמוה, because there are many פסוקים מפורשים which describe the both מלכי ישראל and מלכי יהודה having armies and using them. He is as תמוה as any other Rambam which seems against a mefurash Gemara (much moreso), which we almost inevitably pasken against. Maybe one reconciliation would be that Rambam had a different girsa of Tanach than us, which didn't contain all those pesukim (I am being facetious, but on the other hand, it's quite silly to quote this Rambam as disputing the overwhelming Torah view of the cause of the Churban). Alternatively, for some reason the Rambam felt that they didn't use their armies as effectively as they could. The Tanach and Chazal are giving the ultimate reason, which was our sins, and the Rambam is explaining how that played out naturally, that this caused them to not use their militaries effectively.
Rambam is not תמוה, you are. He read all the psukim much better than you. He is talking specifically at times when the nation was declining...not under good kings....and then, even though they had armies, they were not focused enough....the astrology ruined them...there are psukim...such as in Yirmiyah...that indicate this.
Having said this, it in no way backs up slifkin.slifkin has zero concern for truth at all and twists everything at all times.
That was basically my resolution, if you can show me which pesukim you are talking about that indicated their armies weren't focused enough, I would appreciate.
I dont know if you will see it written black on white...but there seem to be many psukim that include this idea..for example the end of perek 3 in yirmiyah...וְהַבֹּ֗שֶׁת אָֽכְלָ֛ה אֶת־יְגִ֥יעַ אֲבוֹתֵ֖ינוּ מִנְּעוּרֵ֑ינוּ
And throughout perek 4..
and many psukim going forward ...tend to include this idea.
Ofcourse Rambam does not mean to negate the even bigger, open message of betraying G-d, and how that brought the calamity...as that is found throughout Tanach...but his idea seems to be that if they had stuck to faith, besides for how much that would help them, they would also have spent their time devoted to forms of hishtadlus that Hashem desires....instead of weakening off there too.
We should have the humility to evaluate our own behaviors with the vulnerability that maybe I need to do better.