Your post struck a chord. Or maybe plucked the last violin string I had for Agudah. So I donated 18 cents on their website today in the hope that it costs more to process my payment than that amount. I also wrote them a missive describing my disgust. Not expecting much to come of it but they need pushback...lots of it!
I am an orthodox attorney, over 40 years in Israel. Of course I served in the IDF, eventually becoming a military judge. It was a zechut. I was contemplating with one or two other attorneys to make an official complaint with the police against Rabbi Lando for incitement to counter legal orders (according to a certain section of the criminal law).. so far I haven't found the people and I don't want to be a loner.. but would you agree to join me.. ?? Two frum people...
I live in Maalot, a city in the north of Israel and a popular tourist destination in the summer. We've had plenty of young charedim taking their vacation here. My two sons are serving. Two different countries. For some, a traumatized State of Israel at war. For others, the Eretz Yisroel theme park with all security and entertainment laid on.
And I live in Moreshet, a dati yeshuv in the north. During the last few weeks we have also seen many charedim vacationing here, including young men. I see them in shul in the morning before they go on tiyulim.
I think this quote from Rav Eliezer Melamed describing the thought of Rav Kook is strikingly relevant right now:
“Rav Kook’s perspective on natural morality, especially as it pertains to the masses, is particularly refreshing. In yeshivot we are taught that in matters of Torah, all valuable knowledge flows from the rabbis to the people; it is a one-way street. Rav Kook, however, turns this into a two-way street, where the masses also have something significant to offer to Torah scholars. While in the Haredi world, the idea of Daas Torah is often contrasted with Daas Baalei Batim, Rav Kook sees the religious masses as preserving Torah truths that sometimes elude the Torah scholars. This leads to a more inclusive vision of Judaism, in which a broader segment of the population can contribute in meaningful ways.”
Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks wrote about challenging leaders who are wrong, which would apply to today’s Haredi leaders and their followers.
Supposing a leader commands you to do something you know to be forbidden in Jewish law. Should you obey? The answer is a categorical 'No'. The Talmud puts this in the form of a rhetorical question: “Faced with a choice between obeying the master [God] or the disciple [a human leader], whom should you obey?”The answer is obvious. Obey God. Traditional Jewish learning is designed to make teacher and disciple alike aware of the fact that more than one view is possible on any question of Jewish law and multiple interpretations (the traditional number is seventy) of any biblical verse. Judaism is unique in that virtually all of its canonical texts – Midrash, Mishnah and Gemara – are anthologies of arguments (Rabbi X said this, Rabbi Y said that) or are surrounded by multiple commentaries each with its own perspective.
No one is above criticism, and no one too junior to administer it, if done with due grace and humility.
Uncritical followership and habits of silent obedience give rise to the corruptions of power, or sometimes simply to avoidable catastrophes.
Groupthink and conformism are perennial dangers within any closely-knit group. There’s the story of how an American naturalist, William Beebe, came across a strange sight in the Guyana jungle. A group of army ants was moving in a huge circle. The ants went round and round in the same circle for two days until most of them dropped dead. The reason is that when a group of army ants is separated from their colony, they obey a simple rule: follow the ant in front of you. The trouble is that if the ant in front of you is lost, so will you be. “Follow the person in front of you” is as dangerous to humans as it is to army ants.
We need strong-willed voices of dissent within the Haredi community to challenge their leaders and show them the error of their ways. Keep the pressure up Rabbi Slifkin.
This situation is indeed distressing. With regard to the suggestions for what people in America can do to help, it seems that one major component should also include the most respected non-chareidi rabbis (and even sympathetic respected U.S. chareidi rabbis) speaking out forcefully on the issue in widely circulated media. Has this happened at all in the U.S. (I haven't seen it) and, if not, why not?
Where do you see that? Rav Feldman expressed clear discomfort with even davening for them, despite his professed belief that such tefillos would help tremendously.
Eitz is what they call themselves. Peleg means faction. It's because Eitz is the name of r Shachs party from back in the day. "We are following R Shach" "Nu uh, your just a fringe Faction"
You are more correct than Ash is implying. The aguda has a list on their website if the Moetzes. Go down the list one by one and see how many line up with R Feldman.
Here is an issue that I don't think is adequately addressed by people in favor of mandatory conscription of Haredim.
The basic argument you make is that its a מלחמת מצוה. The claim essentially is, Hamas is trying to kill Jews, so we all have a חיוב to protect the Jewish people.
That seems to be an overly simplistic view of what's happening, though. On October 7th, that was obviously the case. There were terrorists on the border trying to kill us, and we had to protect ourselves. The situation now is much murkier though. We are 2 years into the war. The threat is, thankfully, not as immediate as it was then. We have not defeated completely defeated Hamas, and it is unclear if we ever will.
We could keep continue fighting in the hope of finally achieving "total victory", as Bibi supporter want. But the cost would be sending precious young soldiers to the meat grinder, to be killed or wounded. It would mean the hostages likely being killed. And it would mean undoubtedly killing many innocent Palestinian civilians - even if not deliberately. This would only cause the Gazans to become even more radicalized - making future October 7th's even more likely. It would also turn public opinion against us - even from people who used to be friends - and cause even the republican party to become our enemies. And again, this is all in the hopes of totally defeating Hamas - something that may be impossible to ever happen.
So, I don't know how we can call this necessarily a מלחמת מצוה, when continuing this war in Gaza can very plausibly actually be endangering Jews, and even entering questions of לא תרצח with Palestinian civilians.
In the times of תנך and משיח these sorts of questions would be addressed by נבואה, and by trustworthy kings. But, unfortunately, we have a political leadership that many don't feel comfortable trusting with the lives of their sons.
My basic point, to sum up, would be, that in order to give over our sons to risk their lives and to take other peoples lives - in a situation that is not so clear-cut - we would have to trust the leadership, that what they're doing is in fact protecting the Jewish people - and is not for political leadership. And the current government is not one that I trust my kids with.
There is a war going on. That is a fact. Aside from all the other military work that the IDF does, such as protecting the northern border, the eastern border, the southern border, and Yehuda/Shomron. I'm pretty sure that you don't want everyone in the IDF to refuse to show up tomorrow.
A lot of people are suffering due to the manpower shortage. That is also a fact.
So why on earth do you believe that your discomfort with what the IDF is doing exempts you from the need to help your brethren, while everyone else still has to do so?
Regardless of the halachic status of any given military campaign, for which reasonable minds might differ, it seems the pertinent issue is whether one segment of Israeli society should be subject to conscription, while another is not. No individual currently conscripted into the IDF is given veto power to opt out of service (other than by emigrating) by claiming they do not have sufficient trust in the political leadership at any given moment.
I’m an American, so I don’t know the finer points of Israeli politics, but I do know many guys sitting and learning in the Chareidi yeshivos. Isn’t it the case that the Chareidim & the government/army have an adversarial/ mistrustful relationship & there is an active element that seeks to influence charedim away from the life spirituality &immersion in Torah that many practice with great devotion?
And they truly see conscription as a “gzeras shmad.”
I have to think that the government is aware of their concerns, and could, if it wanted to, offer to work with them to design some type of service that would work for them. Perhaps if the charedim administered it…
I saw Eli Beer, the head of Hatzala, talking about something like this.
"Isn’t it the case that the Chareidim & the government/army have an adversarial/ mistrustful relationship & there is an active element that seeks to influence charedim away from the life spirituality &immersion in Torah that many practice with great devotion?"
No.
"I have to think that the government is aware of their concerns, and could, if it wanted to, offer to work with them to design some type of service that would work for them."
Dear Rabbo Slifkin: What you are witnessing from the US is a knee-jerk account. It strikes me that most of the "yeshivish" rabbonim are not thinking. Admittedly there are some thinking Rabbis who agree intellectually. But I doubt most do. They are conveying blind solidarity to their fellow Rabbonim. After all, in America there are a lot of Yeshivish Baalei Batim. When I was last in L.A. I even met a doctor who goes regularly to Yarchei Kallah in the Mir. You have to work hard to afford that!! Perhaps some of those Rabbis can be spoken to and even persuaded. It is hard to guess, but I assume a serious dialogue could be conducted with some of them . Certainly if R Moshe Feinstein or R Yaacov Kaminetzky were around, an intelligent dialogue could have been arranged. חבל על דאבדין....
Their purpose certainly is. However, that is not necessarily what they always do. Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that other than the Bostoner Rebbe, and Rav Ovadia, not one spoke out against throwing Jews out of Gaza? Perhaps they are so immersed in Torah study that they don't really know what is going on in the world? In that sense it is a limud zechut. But I do expect more from them, I would have thought that if they express themselves on a political/national issue, they ought to be as familiar with it as deeply as they are with sugiot in Shas.
I will try to be straightforward. The Bostoner Rebbe, Grand Rabbi Levi Yitzchok, had no political influence in Israel. But his statement that the Chareidi establishment was guilty of לא תעמוד על דם רעך was a welcome moral stance in an a-moral desert of ignoring the suffering of Jews thrown out of their homes. As to Shas, this time they took a pragmatic but moral stance. Zvi Hendel told me personally that the Knesset leadership of Shas under Eli Yishai asked for a quiet poll of MKs about the proposed Disengagement Law. The Shas leadership told him they would vote against the law if their vote would make a difference. The poll showed it would not. So they abstained, I presume so as not to incur the wrath of Sharon for nought. At the huge Kotel rally the week before the engagement, Rav Ovadia was present. Rav Eliashiv was not, and I was informed at the time that this was because the rally was initiated by the Litvish nemesis, Chabad. So שנאת חינם had a place in the development of events even in תשסה.
Daat Torah "assumes a special endowment or capacity to penetrate objective reality, recognize the facts as they ‘really’ are, and apply pertinent Halachic principles. It is a form of ‘Ruach HaKodesh,’ as it were, which borders if not remotely on the periphery of prophecy." (JO, 1963)
Who said anything about thought? Thought is merely Wittgenstein's ladder, to be discarded once ascended; the peripheral prophetic perspective thus acquired makes thought no longer necessary.
Your post struck a chord. Or maybe plucked the last violin string I had for Agudah. So I donated 18 cents on their website today in the hope that it costs more to process my payment than that amount. I also wrote them a missive describing my disgust. Not expecting much to come of it but they need pushback...lots of it!
I am an orthodox attorney, over 40 years in Israel. Of course I served in the IDF, eventually becoming a military judge. It was a zechut. I was contemplating with one or two other attorneys to make an official complaint with the police against Rabbi Lando for incitement to counter legal orders (according to a certain section of the criminal law).. so far I haven't found the people and I don't want to be a loner.. but would you agree to join me.. ?? Two frum people...
I would not be the right person for this - it would be counter-productive to have me. I hope that someone else steps up.
Has any yeshiva canceled its bein hazmanim vacation in an effort to "abolish from upon us all harsh and evil decrees?"
I live in Maalot, a city in the north of Israel and a popular tourist destination in the summer. We've had plenty of young charedim taking their vacation here. My two sons are serving. Two different countries. For some, a traumatized State of Israel at war. For others, the Eretz Yisroel theme park with all security and entertainment laid on.
And I live in Moreshet, a dati yeshuv in the north. During the last few weeks we have also seen many charedim vacationing here, including young men. I see them in shul in the morning before they go on tiyulim.
I think this quote from Rav Eliezer Melamed describing the thought of Rav Kook is strikingly relevant right now:
“Rav Kook’s perspective on natural morality, especially as it pertains to the masses, is particularly refreshing. In yeshivot we are taught that in matters of Torah, all valuable knowledge flows from the rabbis to the people; it is a one-way street. Rav Kook, however, turns this into a two-way street, where the masses also have something significant to offer to Torah scholars. While in the Haredi world, the idea of Daas Torah is often contrasted with Daas Baalei Batim, Rav Kook sees the religious masses as preserving Torah truths that sometimes elude the Torah scholars. This leads to a more inclusive vision of Judaism, in which a broader segment of the population can contribute in meaningful ways.”
Maybe Daas Baalei Batim can save us?
Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks wrote about challenging leaders who are wrong, which would apply to today’s Haredi leaders and their followers.
Supposing a leader commands you to do something you know to be forbidden in Jewish law. Should you obey? The answer is a categorical 'No'. The Talmud puts this in the form of a rhetorical question: “Faced with a choice between obeying the master [God] or the disciple [a human leader], whom should you obey?”The answer is obvious. Obey God. Traditional Jewish learning is designed to make teacher and disciple alike aware of the fact that more than one view is possible on any question of Jewish law and multiple interpretations (the traditional number is seventy) of any biblical verse. Judaism is unique in that virtually all of its canonical texts – Midrash, Mishnah and Gemara – are anthologies of arguments (Rabbi X said this, Rabbi Y said that) or are surrounded by multiple commentaries each with its own perspective.
No one is above criticism, and no one too junior to administer it, if done with due grace and humility.
Uncritical followership and habits of silent obedience give rise to the corruptions of power, or sometimes simply to avoidable catastrophes.
Groupthink and conformism are perennial dangers within any closely-knit group. There’s the story of how an American naturalist, William Beebe, came across a strange sight in the Guyana jungle. A group of army ants was moving in a huge circle. The ants went round and round in the same circle for two days until most of them dropped dead. The reason is that when a group of army ants is separated from their colony, they obey a simple rule: follow the ant in front of you. The trouble is that if the ant in front of you is lost, so will you be. “Follow the person in front of you” is as dangerous to humans as it is to army ants.
We need strong-willed voices of dissent within the Haredi community to challenge their leaders and show them the error of their ways. Keep the pressure up Rabbi Slifkin.
This situation is indeed distressing. With regard to the suggestions for what people in America can do to help, it seems that one major component should also include the most respected non-chareidi rabbis (and even sympathetic respected U.S. chareidi rabbis) speaking out forcefully on the issue in widely circulated media. Has this happened at all in the U.S. (I haven't seen it) and, if not, why not?
No, it has not happened. Your question at to why not is a very good one.
Here's Kalman Libskind yesterday, reading a column that appeared in the Chareidi paper המבשר (not sure there's an online copy of the column).
https://kan.org.il/content/kan/kan-b/p-9996/4240_659_20250819 - starts at around 00:01:10.
One more brick in the wall
"One could be generous and say that the US rabbis mention these things out of genuine concern"
I'm not sure why that is generous. They have consistently cared about Israeli soldiers in the USA unlike in Israel.
Where do you see that? Rav Feldman expressed clear discomfort with even davening for them, despite his professed belief that such tefillos would help tremendously.
R Feldman is extreme eitz. I don't think he is mainstream American.
We all saw r uri Deutsche's Q and A and R Reisman desperately trying to toe the party line while distancing himself as much as possible
what is this new thing called eitz? I have never heard if it. (peleg?)
Yes
Eitz is what they call themselves. Peleg means faction. It's because Eitz is the name of r Shachs party from back in the day. "We are following R Shach" "Nu uh, your just a fringe Faction"
That's ironic, because R' Shach never condoned these types of protests. And Rabbi Dov Landau was actually known as an opponent of Rav Shach.
You are more correct than Ash is implying. The aguda has a list on their website if the Moetzes. Go down the list one by one and see how many line up with R Feldman.
Not 100% but almost.
Here is an issue that I don't think is adequately addressed by people in favor of mandatory conscription of Haredim.
The basic argument you make is that its a מלחמת מצוה. The claim essentially is, Hamas is trying to kill Jews, so we all have a חיוב to protect the Jewish people.
That seems to be an overly simplistic view of what's happening, though. On October 7th, that was obviously the case. There were terrorists on the border trying to kill us, and we had to protect ourselves. The situation now is much murkier though. We are 2 years into the war. The threat is, thankfully, not as immediate as it was then. We have not defeated completely defeated Hamas, and it is unclear if we ever will.
We could keep continue fighting in the hope of finally achieving "total victory", as Bibi supporter want. But the cost would be sending precious young soldiers to the meat grinder, to be killed or wounded. It would mean the hostages likely being killed. And it would mean undoubtedly killing many innocent Palestinian civilians - even if not deliberately. This would only cause the Gazans to become even more radicalized - making future October 7th's even more likely. It would also turn public opinion against us - even from people who used to be friends - and cause even the republican party to become our enemies. And again, this is all in the hopes of totally defeating Hamas - something that may be impossible to ever happen.
So, I don't know how we can call this necessarily a מלחמת מצוה, when continuing this war in Gaza can very plausibly actually be endangering Jews, and even entering questions of לא תרצח with Palestinian civilians.
In the times of תנך and משיח these sorts of questions would be addressed by נבואה, and by trustworthy kings. But, unfortunately, we have a political leadership that many don't feel comfortable trusting with the lives of their sons.
My basic point, to sum up, would be, that in order to give over our sons to risk their lives and to take other peoples lives - in a situation that is not so clear-cut - we would have to trust the leadership, that what they're doing is in fact protecting the Jewish people - and is not for political leadership. And the current government is not one that I trust my kids with.
It has nothing to do with Milchemes Mitzvah.
There is a war going on. That is a fact. Aside from all the other military work that the IDF does, such as protecting the northern border, the eastern border, the southern border, and Yehuda/Shomron. I'm pretty sure that you don't want everyone in the IDF to refuse to show up tomorrow.
A lot of people are suffering due to the manpower shortage. That is also a fact.
So why on earth do you believe that your discomfort with what the IDF is doing exempts you from the need to help your brethren, while everyone else still has to do so?
I discussed your selfish argument and the response in more detail here - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-non-charedi-argument-against.
Regardless of the halachic status of any given military campaign, for which reasonable minds might differ, it seems the pertinent issue is whether one segment of Israeli society should be subject to conscription, while another is not. No individual currently conscripted into the IDF is given veto power to opt out of service (other than by emigrating) by claiming they do not have sufficient trust in the political leadership at any given moment.
I’m an American, so I don’t know the finer points of Israeli politics, but I do know many guys sitting and learning in the Chareidi yeshivos. Isn’t it the case that the Chareidim & the government/army have an adversarial/ mistrustful relationship & there is an active element that seeks to influence charedim away from the life spirituality &immersion in Torah that many practice with great devotion?
And they truly see conscription as a “gzeras shmad.”
I have to think that the government is aware of their concerns, and could, if it wanted to, offer to work with them to design some type of service that would work for them. Perhaps if the charedim administered it…
I saw Eli Beer, the head of Hatzala, talking about something like this.
I’m interested in hearing others’ thoughts.
"Isn’t it the case that the Chareidim & the government/army have an adversarial/ mistrustful relationship & there is an active element that seeks to influence charedim away from the life spirituality &immersion in Torah that many practice with great devotion?"
No.
"I have to think that the government is aware of their concerns, and could, if it wanted to, offer to work with them to design some type of service that would work for them."
It did. It's called Chashmonaim. https://mishmar-hatora.co.il
The Gedolim issued the wrong kol koreh
https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/where-are-the-kol-korehs-when-you?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
Dear Rabbo Slifkin: What you are witnessing from the US is a knee-jerk account. It strikes me that most of the "yeshivish" rabbonim are not thinking. Admittedly there are some thinking Rabbis who agree intellectually. But I doubt most do. They are conveying blind solidarity to their fellow Rabbonim. After all, in America there are a lot of Yeshivish Baalei Batim. When I was last in L.A. I even met a doctor who goes regularly to Yarchei Kallah in the Mir. You have to work hard to afford that!! Perhaps some of those Rabbis can be spoken to and even persuaded. It is hard to guess, but I assume a serious dialogue could be conducted with some of them . Certainly if R Moshe Feinstein or R Yaacov Kaminetzky were around, an intelligent dialogue could have been arranged. חבל על דאבדין....
Is claiming that the rabbonim are not thinking, supposed to be a limud zechut? Isn't their whole purpose based on thinking?
Their purpose certainly is. However, that is not necessarily what they always do. Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that other than the Bostoner Rebbe, and Rav Ovadia, not one spoke out against throwing Jews out of Gaza? Perhaps they are so immersed in Torah study that they don't really know what is going on in the world? In that sense it is a limud zechut. But I do expect more from them, I would have thought that if they express themselves on a political/national issue, they ought to be as familiar with it as deeply as they are with sugiot in Shas.
"Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that other than the Bostoner Rebbe, and Rav Ovadia, not one spoke out against throwing Jews out of Gaza?"
Don't conflate speaking out with actually doing something.
I will try to be straightforward. The Bostoner Rebbe, Grand Rabbi Levi Yitzchok, had no political influence in Israel. But his statement that the Chareidi establishment was guilty of לא תעמוד על דם רעך was a welcome moral stance in an a-moral desert of ignoring the suffering of Jews thrown out of their homes. As to Shas, this time they took a pragmatic but moral stance. Zvi Hendel told me personally that the Knesset leadership of Shas under Eli Yishai asked for a quiet poll of MKs about the proposed Disengagement Law. The Shas leadership told him they would vote against the law if their vote would make a difference. The poll showed it would not. So they abstained, I presume so as not to incur the wrath of Sharon for nought. At the huge Kotel rally the week before the engagement, Rav Ovadia was present. Rav Eliashiv was not, and I was informed at the time that this was because the rally was initiated by the Litvish nemesis, Chabad. So שנאת חינם had a place in the development of events even in תשסה.
Daat Torah "assumes a special endowment or capacity to penetrate objective reality, recognize the facts as they ‘really’ are, and apply pertinent Halachic principles. It is a form of ‘Ruach HaKodesh,’ as it were, which borders if not remotely on the periphery of prophecy." (JO, 1963)
Who said anything about thought? Thought is merely Wittgenstein's ladder, to be discarded once ascended; the peripheral prophetic perspective thus acquired makes thought no longer necessary.