97 Comments

Why is the word "charedi" included in this conversation?

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Because Natan is an antisemitic bigot who revels in writing anything negative about any chareidi under the sun.

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Go take a dip in the Red Sea…

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Read the article and you'll know. It's right there in black and white.

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The only thing black & white is Natan's hatred for charedim. The fact that this person is charedi is as relevant as his hair color. Orthodox - yes. Presumably, no one could say he was being persecuted if was irreligious. But charedi - why is that important?

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author

Because it, and the campaign, are symptomatic of a significant charedi phenomenon. And that's a black-and-white fact.

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What now? Smuggling wildlife is now a "charedi phenomenon"?

Pidyon Shvuyim campaigns may be a charedi phenomenon - but I would think they're a good thing. I agree the "Jewish persecution" stuff is over the top, but to say that pidyon shvuyim campaigns using Jewish persecution as a tactic has become a "charedi phenomenon" is just crazy.

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author

No. Disregarding goyishe laws amd martyring criminals is a charedi phenomenon.

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Criminal behavior (of any kind), as well as exaggerated or even unscrupulous fundraising campaigns are certainly not a charedi phenomenon. To make such a claim you would have to provide some evidence that shows they are more prevalent in charedi society as opposed to the non-charedi population.

It’s amazing how classic stereotypical tropes are suddenly ok if we just call them “phenomena”. Maybe it’s a “Jewish phenomenon” that Jews are greedy and stingy. Try doing that with stereotypes about any other minority and see where that gets you.

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You are a demented racist, completely disassociated from reality.

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So why would the campaign organizers write that he didn't break the law? I thought no chareidi would care even if he did actually break the law! They probably would've raised more money had they wrote the truth, since chareidim all love and respect criminals, no?

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You understand Jewish Quislings have said the same thing, from the Chanukah Revolt all the way through Communism?

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I repeat. Read the article here and you will know.

And it's something that even Rabbi Slifkin didn't mention in his reply to you a few minutes ago.

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The linked Arutz7 article does not mention charedi at all!

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I repeat. Read the article here and you will know.

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Enough guessing games. It's been reported that the guy is from Beitar Ilit.

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Aug 28, 2023Liked by Natan Slifkin

The underlying point about this and many other of R Slifkin's blog posts is a culture clash. Rabbi Sacks contrasts Western moral systems which have overwhelming value focus on fairness and avoidance of harm with traditional moral systems, in which values attach to loyalty, authority and sanctity. In this case, those mobilising to support the turtle trafficker are motivated by loyalty to their fellow Jew. They purposely sugarcoat the details of the case to make him look like a martyr or a captive. Ask why and they will tell you, okay he made a mistake, in fact a serious mistake, but he's our brother and we have responsibility for him. This is all... (in my opinion, the right thing to do - which combines both sets of values - would be for Israel to reach agreement with Madagascar for him to serve out the rest of his term in Israel... )

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I see. So Judaism is all about "authority and loyalty", while Secularism - last seen preaching transgenderism, homosexuality, drug use, and the evil of white men - is the paragon of "fairness and avoidance of harm." I'm glad NS liked this comment, its a useful summary of what he believes.

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Who said anything about a dichotomy? Judaism bridges universalism and particularity, tradition and modernity, and many things beside. The question is balancing them (I understand the Rambam's requirement for moderation in part through this lens) - in this case, it seems someone has done harm and has been held responsible, but he is our Jewish brother, and thus we are responsible. Hence the suggestion I made above - he should serve his time, recognising the harm he seems to have done, but he should serve it in an Israeli prison, so that we his fellow Jews BeH can safeguard his life, his health and the continued practice of his Torah obligations.

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In reply to your opening question - you did. You cited an alleged contrast made by R. Sacks, in which he allegedly contrasts "traditional" systems, which you say emphasize authority, with "western" systems, which you say emphasize fairness and avoidance of harm. And to which I say in response: False. Neither proposition is true.

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If that is how you read it, then I apologise for my poor word choice.

To reformulate: Rabbi Sacks highlights how Western values systems are limited to the two principles relating to fairness and avoidance of harm, and traditional value systems also attach value to loyalty, authority and sanctity.

Thus, in the circumstance we are dealing with, those Jews that operate within the framework of Western value-based approaches would recognise merely that the turtle trafficker seems to have done harm, end of story - whether this person is Jewish or not is irrelevant, he is not deserving of our sympathy or intervention.

However, those Jews operating within traditional value systems would attach value to the fact this person is Jewish, and that we as Jews have a loyalty obligation to ease his plight.

The point about balance is important because, i think obviously (but i guess from your comment maybe not), traditional value systems still value fairness and harm avoidance, but they are balanced with considerations of loyalty, tradition and authority.

Therefore, even if one feels loyalty to the turtle trafficker as a fellow Jew, some may feel it is right to do absolutely anything necessary to help him, e.g. bending/disregarding/negating the truth to raise funds or labelling the Madagascar judicial system anti-semitic; some may feel it is right to help him without doing these things; and others will somehow take a middle path (e.g. slightly bending but not outright negating the truth).

The point you raised above about LGBTQ (the acronym is shorter) is the opposite - those operating within Western value systems would say that an LGBTQ person acting consensually with another LGBTQ person is doing no harm, and therefore there is no basis to intrude on their activities. However those that operate within a traditional values system will take into account considerations of sanctity - in this case that Torah prohibits such activity. And yet even here balance is important - I believe Chief Rabbi Mirvis holds to a slightly different position than Rav Thau..

Hoping I expressed this clearly enough??

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Perhaps not a complete clash but only a matter of degree, as the secular/western system also talks about “justice with mercy”, reducing sentences and fines on a case by case basis, but falls short of what we consider to be the right amount of rachamim to add to the din.

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For me, a manifestation of the clash in values arises in the question, how far are you permitted to go to stay loyal to your fellow Jew and bring the prisoner home? Bend/distort/negate the truth to raise funds? Accuse an innocent country/people of anti-semitism? Mobilise the strength of two OECD Governments against a least developed country that seems to have been trying to do the right thing (i.e. protecting its ecosystem)?

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he was taking the 59 turtles from Madagascar to Thailand where he could sell them for a fortune. The narrative, therefore, that he took a few turtles to delight his children is an out and out lie. He also complained the crowdfunding wasn't up to his liking, apparently a number of readers realized he was guilty.

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As Natan correctly points out, this was not an innocent act by a naive tourist. He was actively and knowingly engaged in a criminal enterprise, trading in rare and endangered species. As the saying goes, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Madagascar is an extreemly poor country, even by African standards, and I am sure that their prisions reflect that poverty. I do not have a problem with individuals or institutions trying to help him out, even with efforts to reduce or mitigate his sentence, or perhaps transfer him to some type of house arrest. Still, it must be acknowledged that he is a criminal and should be recognized as such.

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Well written but instead of trading he was “trafficking” which is an illegal activity to make a profit when they action is illegal.

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Thanks for the correction David. Trafficking is a more correct term to describe his criminal action.

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Also, the fundraising campaign desperately needs a better translator and proofreader.

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"The official was curious if I could tell him what the charedi community has to say about the man from Bnei Brak..."

Why this person would ask YOU about what the Charedi community has to say is anybody's guess. The likeliest answer is that either the parks authority guy is clueless and thinks all Jews with a kipa are the same, or your reputation as an anti-semitet vis a vis charedim, has spread, and the guy was looking for the kind of answer he knew you would give. Nothing to be proud of, I'm afraid. Regardless, the only responsible answer to that question would have been "No, you'll have to ask them yourselves."

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Rabbi Slifkin, this story actually proves the exact opposite of what you are saying.

If Chareidim indeed don't care about the law, why would the campaign organizers mention that he was taking it as a toy for his kids? Why wouldn't they just say he was breaking the law, fair and square? Because no chareidi would withhold donations simply because he's a criminal, isn't that true?!

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From the fundraiser… “…Unfortunately, removing turtles and harming nature is a serious offense there." Gee ya think?

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I wonder how many shell corporations were set up for this smuggling op?

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People live under a rock and think that it is the source of all sustenance. They never actually left and checked other ways of thinking.

Nowadays, incarceration is seen as a legitimate punishment for all kinds of crimes. Until people think that if you don't incarcerate, you don't care about the crime.

Incarceration is evil, a product of the vengeful religious vindictiveness that permeates the 'justice' system in the Western world. Incarceration should be kept for sociopaths, people who can't function in society. Murderers, molesters, rapists, and gangsters. If someone smuggles an endangered species from a country for money, he should be fined enough money that future expeditions are not financially viable. A swindler, an embezzler, a thief, or a tax evader should be fined, not incarcerated.

That is why the Charedi world will see all such cases as pidyon shevuyim. Whether it's art to Japan or turtles from Madagascar.

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I always say my opinion of jail hasn't changed since I was a 4 year old. It's like a zoo; bars and locks to keep the danger away from humans. If he's not a violent criminal what's he doing there?

As far as an alternative, I don't think fines necessarily work all the time (maybe for traffic violations) but for a guy who swindles or embezzles billions, do you really think a fine does the trick? But maybe forced community service or other ways of taking away freedom from a man who doesn't deserve it, similar to the Torah's idea of עבד עברי. And while this would never happen today because it's too similar to slavery, it would ensure that people might have more sanity left when done with their sentence instead of being unproductive for years on end.

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“Incarceration is evil, a product of the vengeful religious vindictiveness that permeates the 'justice' system in the Western world. Incarceration should be kept for sociopaths, people who can't function in society. Murderers, molesters, rapists, and gangsters.” - Zichron Devarim

“But prison time for smuggling turtles is ridiculous; he should have gotten just a fine.” - Sender Zeyv Goldberg

“It's important to note that this does not involve drug trafficking or, God forbid, murder, but rather an individual who, with a pure heart, took along several turtles to delight his children.” - the Pidyon Shevuyim campaign.

And 3335 years ago there was a man (maybe named Tzelophchad, maybe not) who was walking in a wilderness/desert picking up sticks (maybe he was playing pick up sticks with his daughters). Moshe Rabbeinu didn’t know what to do with this guy so he put him in jail. The Jews then stoned him to death. Maybe they should have held a pidyon Shevuyim campaign instead. Chazal seem to suggest the punishment didn’t fit the crime (TOS. Bab.Bat. 119 citing the Midrash).

However, I have a funny feeling that some people (not necessarily the people I quoted above) who think this smuggler is being treated too harshly, would consider it wholly (holy?) appropriate to kill someone for gathering sticks on the wrong day of the week.

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He was incarcerated because they didn't know what to do with him. Brush up on your Bible studies

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Isn’t that EXACTLY what I wrote? “Moshe Rabbeinu didn’t know what to do with this guy so he put him in jail.”

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Perfect!

Belief in incarceration goes along with disbelief in the Torah. I am fine with that.

But when people try and claim that incarcerating a thief/embezzler/swindler/smuggler fits with the Torah, they are wrong.

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I’m confused, who are you suggesting doesn’t believe in Torah? tosafot or Chazal?

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The non-existent Tosfos

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Okay, Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. For a moment I thought you meant the tannaim who disagree with R. Akiva and “don’t believe” the guy’s name was Tzelophechad.

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Tosfos doesn't discuss your issue at all. You made it up. But that is par for the course for those who don't believe in Torah.

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Aug 28, 2023·edited Aug 28, 2023

Forced labor should replace incarceration for the ones that can't pay in thr spirit of עבד עברי. Some should get lashes too, depending on what they did.

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Why not give everyone lashes, just in case? I am sure the world will become a better place.

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Deep thinking, mate.

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And where should they keep him until he pays the fine, or should they let him go if he promises to pay…soon?

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הורגי אדם עגלות ישקון

Those that treat animals like humans, are those that end up with cruelty to humans.

Someone who would incarcerate a human because he mistreated animals is dangerous.

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You’re really not normal….all first and many third world nations as we see here have rules of incarceration for cruelty against animals, and by the way you have it ass backwards…those are are cruel to animals many times end up being cruel to humans, there are reams of cases where violent offenders were seen to when started in youth as cruel to animal, so you are actually protecting people by incarcerating those cruel to animals….

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You skewed the topic just enough to pull in your straw argument.

If a person acts with wanton cruelty, he is a sociopath. It is likely he will act like that to humans. If a person smuggles 59 turtles for profit, he just likes money. He is no more likely to hurt humans than anyone else.

You are right about first world countries. And you have been living in them for so long that you cannot imagine that they are just plain wrong. They are also wrong for incarcerating people for embezzling and swindling. Even though they all do so.

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You just don’t like that so many prisons have minyanim because they do incarcerate people for embezzlement and swindling….

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Can you actually make a coherent argument? Or is that the best you have?

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So, you don’t believe animal trafficking would EVER lead to human trafficking…..shows how ignorant you really are

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Picking your nose in public could sometimes theoretically lead to murder. Should we incarcerate all nose-pickers? Are you volunteering to be first?

This person is no danger to humans; he should not be in jail. And we are proud to help him out of there.

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So people like this don’t belong in jail..???

https://www.news10.com/news/crime/catskill-man-charged-with-aggravated-animal-cruelty/amp/

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There are too many details missing to render judgment, but the story's basic facts seem to show that the guy is a little dimwitted, and he thought he could drag the coop with his car and save time and money.

He got it wrong.

Why should he go to jail? Is he a danger to society? Does anyone gain from his incarceration?

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Aug 27, 2023·edited Aug 27, 2023

After reading the first paragraph I was thinking to myself: 'It can't be that Slifkin would right a post about turtles wothout mentioning the charedim?' But I couldn't think what the turtles can possibly have to do with the charedim. Here it goes.

עין הרע ויצר הרע ושנאת הבריות מוציאין את האדם מן העולם.

While not being outraged by the pouching of the rare turtles, charedim do not incourage it or approve of it. Fund me pages are often misleading and phrased in a way to present things in a positive light. This is a general problem that has nothing to do with the charedim.

Charedim are not Slifkin's society and speaking of them as such is misleading. Why doesn't he examine the ills of the society where he is now?

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He is. He lives in Beit Shemesh.

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He can teach the other inmates Yiddish

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I read your postings with interest Nathan. I don't always agree with your point of view but here I agree 100%. If you break the law in any country you suffer the consequences. Remember the young men who were sent to prison in Japan for smuggling drugs? At least they had the chance to learn Japanese to become interpreters on their release to earn an honest living. Perhaps this sentence will deter other like minded individuals although somehow I doubt it!

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Malagasy is also a great language to learn.

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So he is not only a thief, a criminal, a liar, and a smuggler, he is lying to his fellow Jews so he can escape the consequences of his crimes. Scumbag like this bring disrepute on Jews in front of the world. FAFO

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From the fundraiser… “…Unfortunately, removing turtles and harming nature is a serious offense there." Gee ya think?

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