The underlying point about this and many other of R Slifkin's blog posts is a culture clash. Rabbi Sacks contrasts Western moral systems which have overwhelming value focus on fairness and avoidance of harm with traditional moral systems, in which values attach to loyalty, authority and sanctity. In this case, those mobilising to support the turtle trafficker are motivated by loyalty to their fellow Jew. They purposely sugarcoat the details of the case to make him look like a martyr or a captive. Ask why and they will tell you, okay he made a mistake, in fact a serious mistake, but he's our brother and we have responsibility for him. This is all... (in my opinion, the right thing to do - which combines both sets of values - would be for Israel to reach agreement with Madagascar for him to serve out the rest of his term in Israel... )
I see. So Judaism is all about "authority and loyalty", while Secularism - last seen preaching transgenderism, homosexuality, drug use, and the evil of white men - is the paragon of "fairness and avoidance of harm." I'm glad NS liked this comment, its a useful summary of what he believes.
Who said anything about a dichotomy? Judaism bridges universalism and particularity, tradition and modernity, and many things beside. The question is balancing them (I understand the Rambam's requirement for moderation in part through this lens) - in this case, it seems someone has done harm and has been held responsible, but he is our Jewish brother, and thus we are responsible. Hence the suggestion I made above - he should serve his time, recognising the harm he seems to have done, but he should serve it in an Israeli prison, so that we his fellow Jews BeH can safeguard his life, his health and the continued practice of his Torah obligations.
In reply to your opening question - you did. You cited an alleged contrast made by R. Sacks, in which he allegedly contrasts "traditional" systems, which you say emphasize authority, with "western" systems, which you say emphasize fairness and avoidance of harm. And to which I say in response: False. Neither proposition is true.
If that is how you read it, then I apologise for my poor word choice.
To reformulate: Rabbi Sacks highlights how Western values systems are limited to the two principles relating to fairness and avoidance of harm, and traditional value systems also attach value to loyalty, authority and sanctity.
Thus, in the circumstance we are dealing with, those Jews that operate within the framework of Western value-based approaches would recognise merely that the turtle trafficker seems to have done harm, end of story - whether this person is Jewish or not is irrelevant, he is not deserving of our sympathy or intervention.
However, those Jews operating within traditional value systems would attach value to the fact this person is Jewish, and that we as Jews have a loyalty obligation to ease his plight.
The point about balance is important because, i think obviously (but i guess from your comment maybe not), traditional value systems still value fairness and harm avoidance, but they are balanced with considerations of loyalty, tradition and authority.
Therefore, even if one feels loyalty to the turtle trafficker as a fellow Jew, some may feel it is right to do absolutely anything necessary to help him, e.g. bending/disregarding/negating the truth to raise funds or labelling the Madagascar judicial system anti-semitic; some may feel it is right to help him without doing these things; and others will somehow take a middle path (e.g. slightly bending but not outright negating the truth).
The point you raised above about LGBTQ (the acronym is shorter) is the opposite - those operating within Western value systems would say that an LGBTQ person acting consensually with another LGBTQ person is doing no harm, and therefore there is no basis to intrude on their activities. However those that operate within a traditional values system will take into account considerations of sanctity - in this case that Torah prohibits such activity. And yet even here balance is important - I believe Chief Rabbi Mirvis holds to a slightly different position than Rav Thau..
Perhaps not a complete clash but only a matter of degree, as the secular/western system also talks about “justice with mercy”, reducing sentences and fines on a case by case basis, but falls short of what we consider to be the right amount of rachamim to add to the din.
For me, a manifestation of the clash in values arises in the question, how far are you permitted to go to stay loyal to your fellow Jew and bring the prisoner home? Bend/distort/negate the truth to raise funds? Accuse an innocent country/people of anti-semitism? Mobilise the strength of two OECD Governments against a least developed country that seems to have been trying to do the right thing (i.e. protecting its ecosystem)?
he was taking the 59 turtles from Madagascar to Thailand where he could sell them for a fortune. The narrative, therefore, that he took a few turtles to delight his children is an out and out lie. He also complained the crowdfunding wasn't up to his liking, apparently a number of readers realized he was guilty.
As Natan correctly points out, this was not an innocent act by a naive tourist. He was actively and knowingly engaged in a criminal enterprise, trading in rare and endangered species. As the saying goes, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Madagascar is an extreemly poor country, even by African standards, and I am sure that their prisions reflect that poverty. I do not have a problem with individuals or institutions trying to help him out, even with efforts to reduce or mitigate his sentence, or perhaps transfer him to some type of house arrest. Still, it must be acknowledged that he is a criminal and should be recognized as such.
"The official was curious if I could tell him what the charedi community has to say about the man from Bnei Brak..."
Why this person would ask YOU about what the Charedi community has to say is anybody's guess. The likeliest answer is that either the parks authority guy is clueless and thinks all Jews with a kipa are the same, or your reputation as an anti-semitet vis a vis charedim, has spread, and the guy was looking for the kind of answer he knew you would give. Nothing to be proud of, I'm afraid. Regardless, the only responsible answer to that question would have been "No, you'll have to ask them yourselves."
Rabbi Slifkin, this story actually proves the exact opposite of what you are saying.
If Chareidim indeed don't care about the law, why would the campaign organizers mention that he was taking it as a toy for his kids? Why wouldn't they just say he was breaking the law, fair and square? Because no chareidi would withhold donations simply because he's a criminal, isn't that true?!
After reading the first paragraph I was thinking to myself: 'It can't be that Slifkin would right a post about turtles wothout mentioning the charedim?' But I couldn't think what the turtles can possibly have to do with the charedim. Here it goes.
עין הרע ויצר הרע ושנאת הבריות מוציאין את האדם מן העולם.
While not being outraged by the pouching of the rare turtles, charedim do not incourage it or approve of it. Fund me pages are often misleading and phrased in a way to present things in a positive light. This is a general problem that has nothing to do with the charedim.
Charedim are not Slifkin's society and speaking of them as such is misleading. Why doesn't he examine the ills of the society where he is now?
I read your postings with interest Nathan. I don't always agree with your point of view but here I agree 100%. If you break the law in any country you suffer the consequences. Remember the young men who were sent to prison in Japan for smuggling drugs? At least they had the chance to learn Japanese to become interpreters on their release to earn an honest living. Perhaps this sentence will deter other like minded individuals although somehow I doubt it!
So he is not only a thief, a criminal, a liar, and a smuggler, he is lying to his fellow Jews so he can escape the consequences of his crimes. Scumbag like this bring disrepute on Jews in front of the world. FAFO
The underlying point about this and many other of R Slifkin's blog posts is a culture clash. Rabbi Sacks contrasts Western moral systems which have overwhelming value focus on fairness and avoidance of harm with traditional moral systems, in which values attach to loyalty, authority and sanctity. In this case, those mobilising to support the turtle trafficker are motivated by loyalty to their fellow Jew. They purposely sugarcoat the details of the case to make him look like a martyr or a captive. Ask why and they will tell you, okay he made a mistake, in fact a serious mistake, but he's our brother and we have responsibility for him. This is all... (in my opinion, the right thing to do - which combines both sets of values - would be for Israel to reach agreement with Madagascar for him to serve out the rest of his term in Israel... )
I see. So Judaism is all about "authority and loyalty", while Secularism - last seen preaching transgenderism, homosexuality, drug use, and the evil of white men - is the paragon of "fairness and avoidance of harm." I'm glad NS liked this comment, its a useful summary of what he believes.
Who said anything about a dichotomy? Judaism bridges universalism and particularity, tradition and modernity, and many things beside. The question is balancing them (I understand the Rambam's requirement for moderation in part through this lens) - in this case, it seems someone has done harm and has been held responsible, but he is our Jewish brother, and thus we are responsible. Hence the suggestion I made above - he should serve his time, recognising the harm he seems to have done, but he should serve it in an Israeli prison, so that we his fellow Jews BeH can safeguard his life, his health and the continued practice of his Torah obligations.
In reply to your opening question - you did. You cited an alleged contrast made by R. Sacks, in which he allegedly contrasts "traditional" systems, which you say emphasize authority, with "western" systems, which you say emphasize fairness and avoidance of harm. And to which I say in response: False. Neither proposition is true.
If that is how you read it, then I apologise for my poor word choice.
To reformulate: Rabbi Sacks highlights how Western values systems are limited to the two principles relating to fairness and avoidance of harm, and traditional value systems also attach value to loyalty, authority and sanctity.
Thus, in the circumstance we are dealing with, those Jews that operate within the framework of Western value-based approaches would recognise merely that the turtle trafficker seems to have done harm, end of story - whether this person is Jewish or not is irrelevant, he is not deserving of our sympathy or intervention.
However, those Jews operating within traditional value systems would attach value to the fact this person is Jewish, and that we as Jews have a loyalty obligation to ease his plight.
The point about balance is important because, i think obviously (but i guess from your comment maybe not), traditional value systems still value fairness and harm avoidance, but they are balanced with considerations of loyalty, tradition and authority.
Therefore, even if one feels loyalty to the turtle trafficker as a fellow Jew, some may feel it is right to do absolutely anything necessary to help him, e.g. bending/disregarding/negating the truth to raise funds or labelling the Madagascar judicial system anti-semitic; some may feel it is right to help him without doing these things; and others will somehow take a middle path (e.g. slightly bending but not outright negating the truth).
The point you raised above about LGBTQ (the acronym is shorter) is the opposite - those operating within Western value systems would say that an LGBTQ person acting consensually with another LGBTQ person is doing no harm, and therefore there is no basis to intrude on their activities. However those that operate within a traditional values system will take into account considerations of sanctity - in this case that Torah prohibits such activity. And yet even here balance is important - I believe Chief Rabbi Mirvis holds to a slightly different position than Rav Thau..
Hoping I expressed this clearly enough??
Perhaps not a complete clash but only a matter of degree, as the secular/western system also talks about “justice with mercy”, reducing sentences and fines on a case by case basis, but falls short of what we consider to be the right amount of rachamim to add to the din.
For me, a manifestation of the clash in values arises in the question, how far are you permitted to go to stay loyal to your fellow Jew and bring the prisoner home? Bend/distort/negate the truth to raise funds? Accuse an innocent country/people of anti-semitism? Mobilise the strength of two OECD Governments against a least developed country that seems to have been trying to do the right thing (i.e. protecting its ecosystem)?
he was taking the 59 turtles from Madagascar to Thailand where he could sell them for a fortune. The narrative, therefore, that he took a few turtles to delight his children is an out and out lie. He also complained the crowdfunding wasn't up to his liking, apparently a number of readers realized he was guilty.
As Natan correctly points out, this was not an innocent act by a naive tourist. He was actively and knowingly engaged in a criminal enterprise, trading in rare and endangered species. As the saying goes, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Madagascar is an extreemly poor country, even by African standards, and I am sure that their prisions reflect that poverty. I do not have a problem with individuals or institutions trying to help him out, even with efforts to reduce or mitigate his sentence, or perhaps transfer him to some type of house arrest. Still, it must be acknowledged that he is a criminal and should be recognized as such.
Well written but instead of trading he was “trafficking” which is an illegal activity to make a profit when they action is illegal.
Thanks for the correction David. Trafficking is a more correct term to describe his criminal action.
Also, the fundraising campaign desperately needs a better translator and proofreader.
"The official was curious if I could tell him what the charedi community has to say about the man from Bnei Brak..."
Why this person would ask YOU about what the Charedi community has to say is anybody's guess. The likeliest answer is that either the parks authority guy is clueless and thinks all Jews with a kipa are the same, or your reputation as an anti-semitet vis a vis charedim, has spread, and the guy was looking for the kind of answer he knew you would give. Nothing to be proud of, I'm afraid. Regardless, the only responsible answer to that question would have been "No, you'll have to ask them yourselves."
Rabbi Slifkin, this story actually proves the exact opposite of what you are saying.
If Chareidim indeed don't care about the law, why would the campaign organizers mention that he was taking it as a toy for his kids? Why wouldn't they just say he was breaking the law, fair and square? Because no chareidi would withhold donations simply because he's a criminal, isn't that true?!
From the fundraiser… “…Unfortunately, removing turtles and harming nature is a serious offense there." Gee ya think?
I wonder how many shell corporations were set up for this smuggling op?
After reading the first paragraph I was thinking to myself: 'It can't be that Slifkin would right a post about turtles wothout mentioning the charedim?' But I couldn't think what the turtles can possibly have to do with the charedim. Here it goes.
עין הרע ויצר הרע ושנאת הבריות מוציאין את האדם מן העולם.
While not being outraged by the pouching of the rare turtles, charedim do not incourage it or approve of it. Fund me pages are often misleading and phrased in a way to present things in a positive light. This is a general problem that has nothing to do with the charedim.
Charedim are not Slifkin's society and speaking of them as such is misleading. Why doesn't he examine the ills of the society where he is now?
He is. He lives in Beit Shemesh.
Some people just never learn…..
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-756577
He can teach the other inmates Yiddish
I read your postings with interest Nathan. I don't always agree with your point of view but here I agree 100%. If you break the law in any country you suffer the consequences. Remember the young men who were sent to prison in Japan for smuggling drugs? At least they had the chance to learn Japanese to become interpreters on their release to earn an honest living. Perhaps this sentence will deter other like minded individuals although somehow I doubt it!
Malagasy is also a great language to learn.
So he is not only a thief, a criminal, a liar, and a smuggler, he is lying to his fellow Jews so he can escape the consequences of his crimes. Scumbag like this bring disrepute on Jews in front of the world. FAFO
From the fundraiser… “…Unfortunately, removing turtles and harming nature is a serious offense there." Gee ya think?
'The other day an official from Israel’s Nature and Parks Authority contacted me regarding smuggled reptiles. '
What percentage of the smugglers are charedim?
So presumably a guy who travels to Madagascar to poach turtles is chareidi! Because he happens to wear a black hat!
Yeah I’d say so….unless you’re not, a Scotsman…