Rabbi Slifkin, your site without HGL is like the Knesset without the Likud. Like cholent without kishke. This site will be so boring without the lively and witty debate that he brings to the table. Please reconsider your ban on him.
The economists in Israel agree with slifkin and the chareidi leadership is not addressing the issue as far as I'm aware. Until they address the issue we can rightfully assume they don't know the facts.
That's why I said get an economics education to find out what economics can and cannot predict. As somebody wise once said, "God created economists to make astrologers look good."
Who says you are supposed to pretend to predict things like what the chareidim will do in 20 years? Ridiculous. Economists who make such predictions are no better than dime-store palm readers.
Every successful modern society makes predictions and builds economic models around them. That's one thing which gives western countries their edge. They have the research.
This is completely false. No modern society is able to make such long-term prediction about such variable and unstable factors. Complete pie-in-the-sky dream thinking.
I made this amazing prediction that we won't be able to flush toilets in two hundred years if all the pipes rust and we haven't done anything about it by then.
Do you realize you've contradicted yourself in one single sentence? The article addressed the phenomenon of Charedi spokespeople refuse to explain away economic concerns and instead defer to the Gedolim. "There is no doubt that HaGaon Rav Shteinman is smart enough to have thought of the issues raised by President Rivlin and Jonathan Rosenblum."
And yet, you've offered an explanation. You know the secret plan- that there's nothing to worry about, because these sort of economic predictions are bunk. Do you think that this was the secret knowledge held by Rav Shteinmann?
If you agree with the author of the article, then you shouldn't assume you know the secret reasons of Rav Shteinmann. You should take the same approach and simply accept the status quo without providing the explanation that you have revealed here. By providing your own explanation, you've shown yourself unwilling to defer to the Gedolim's reasons and silence in not revealing them.
What makes you think that Rav Shteinman is “ smart enough to have thought of the issues raised by President Rivlin and Jonathan Rosenblum” ? He may have been particularly adroit in elaborating halacha, but has he offered a response to the economic challenges posed by non-working chareidi society? Does he think it might be a problem for Israeli society?
I'm not addressing Rav Shteinmann. I'm not even quoting him directly. It's about the secret reasons of the Gedolim which must be taken on faith. HGL has deviated from this orthodoxy by claiming he knows the secret.
Why not? Daas Torah makes all sorts of predictions. It predicts that the Torah offers protection from evil, predicts Hashem will kill you for reasons X, Y and Z. But you may be correct that Daas Torah is incapable of predicting economic consequences of bad financial behavior. It doesn’t take much thought to recognize that overly increasing the money supply might lead to bad inflation, unless of course you’re wedded to a religious doctrine that is impervious to monetary and fiscal cause and effect.
"By providing your own explanation,you've shown yourself unwilling to defer to the Gedolim' s reasons and silence in not revealing them." The Torah is not a secret cult. A pesak must be backed by stating the basis. This not a matter of trust.It must be open to debate. The Gedolim's authority is based on scholarship and respect for their dedication etc.. We we're not talking about Chassideshi Rebbe's.
Perhaps all non-observant (by your standards) people, who are earning a living, paying taxes and serving in the IDF should be sent into exile, back to US or Europe. Regrettably the country won't survive. Would country survive and prosper without the free-loaders?
No, I am not anti-religious or anti-yeshivot just anti-free-loaders gaming the system at everyone's expense.
I am waiting for lessons in economics from Happy. Tell me all about money falling from heaven to support the Free-loaders (call them by proper name.) Perhaps they can be supported by voluntary charitable contributions.
Perhaps they will come to realize the halachic obligation to work (dirty word) for a living. It worked for Rambam and most of the tannaim.
You seem to be highly skeptical of R. Slifkin’s prediction that Israel’s economy is in peril unless the large and growing sector of socioeconomic parasites change their behavior, but not nearly as skeptical of your own prediction (such as it is) that Torah protects. Motivated skepticism?
You can’t mitigate his question by saying “there are other issues out there, like chilul Shabbos etc., so his question is null and void.” No. The question is legitimate. Your answer is legitimate. RNS’s post is legitimate. But everyone’s going around in circles. Happy, your answers - and your blog - don’t actually answer the questions. They just raise other issues.
I never said it answered the question (which is a silly question anyways), it just shows he's fundamentally unserious by selectively raising questions against those he perceives as enemies when there are equally or more critical questions that can be raised on his approach.
You have been asked a direct question. Answer it or be quiet. Don't try your usual threadbare whattaboutism, ad hominems, desperate deflection, special pleading, or lashing out. It will come down to begging from Hashem, begging from economically productive Jews, or stealing government money from the needy
Dont you know society owes everything to Chareidim but Chareidim don't owe society to serve in the Army to protect them and everyone else and to work to contribute to the economic welfare of the State. Why do the nonreligious and some religious resent the Chareidim? You can figure that out. Time for a change.
The economists are in agreement with Rabbi Slifkin. The massive dependency of the Charedim and the drain they represent on the economy cannot be sustained
My graduate advisor in economics would have been very surprised to hear that. You don't even need to do complex numerical predictions. A sky high dependency ratio like that makes everyone poorer and stresses all sectors of the economy. This decreases the nation's economic surplus, it's ability to react to change and lowers its productivity in a vicious downward spiral. This is freshman level stuff.
You were given many chances to behave like an adult and to speak in good faith. You chose to stick with your usual crud. I will not engage with people who are incapable of normal adult behavior. Go away. Stay away
If you would have asked a serious question I would have given you a serious answer. But declaring "the hareidi parasites will be our ruin" is obviously not a serious question. Also, an open atheist like you has no right saying "Eretz Yisrael". Say Israel instead.
Already asked you: What is your academic or professional background in economics? Don't screech insults. Don't ook your usual deflection. Don't puff yourself up with fake outrage. Don't lie. Just answer the question.
Then tell us with an extra 30% of the workforce not working where will the money come from? You can only do so much begging before the workers are tapped out. You can only take so much from the government before infrastructure breaks down, the heroes who actually defend Eretz Yisrael aren't paid, healthcare isn't provided, and the real schools closed.
Where. Does. The. Money. Come. From?
Answer the questions you have been asked without changing the subject or moving the goalposts. Or shut up and go away because you aren't speaking in good faith
"His reason? “The Gedolim are against them.” And what about the endless yeshiva high schools in the US which do provide secular education? “The Gedolim are for them.” "
This is a deeply inaccurate caricature of his position, as spelled out in the very article which you screenshotted. What he says is that the schools in the chu"l were founded by yirei shamayim with the support of the gedolim, and have thereby produced generations of bnei torah. By contrast, the ones in Israel were founded by people attempting to weaken religion and reform charedi society. He continues by recounting how every year new olim come to him to complain bitterly about how they were misled by the mamlachti charedi folks and that as a consequence they're now worse off spiritually than they were in chu"l.
(Note that whether he's right or not about those assertions isn't my point; your distortion of his position is.)
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"it was criticized by a rabbi in my neighborhood who, although teaching in a yeshiva for non-charedi students, is himself charedi (and this is exactly why it’s a problem when non-charedi institutions have charedi teachers). "
It might not be the brightest idea to whine about charedim being blind to future consequences, not having a plan for the long term, etc, in the same article in which you bemoan that non-charedim apparently hire charedim to turn their *own* kids into charedim.
Depends on the Gadol and depends what type of school. R Shteinman ZT"L was particularly uncompromising in that regard. He thought there shouldn't be such schools in America either. https://www.makorrishon.co.il/nrg/online/1/ART/831/485.html
He's also been in the yeshiva shel ma'alah for a few years already, during which time charedi society has further splintered into sub-factions and sub-sub-factions.
(Also, I think charedim in EY are defined in large part by their opposition to any outside influences in a way in which Americans aren't. My hunch is that a lot of that is collective trauma from the fights between the yishuv hayashan and the founders of the state. Large parts of the charedi world still see themselves standing alongside R Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld athwart the secularist mapainiks like Ben Gurion. American Jewry has had the opposite trajectory, with early settlers tending to be more assimilated, while the European Roshei Yeshiva and Chassidishe Rebbeim arrived later. But that's just my own semi-educated speculation.)
I think the concerns are founded and legitimate. To me this is the issue: Natan, I imagine that you have a grand plan. And that plan is to change the chareidim (which I really think if done right can really help). But how do you propose to change the chareidim? Any answers you can possibly provide will limit their adherence to the Torah. If you propose a secular education, or going to work, or going to the army etc., that comes at the expense of the other important things they are doing. Now, for YOU, this is no big deal, because in your rationalist world view these other matters take first or equal place. (Which is why liberals are always so liberal; they don't care for, or deny the cause that the conservatives are trying to conserve.)
But to the chareidi - whose views have tremendous backing in many Jewish sources - these issues, even if they are real and important, take only second place to the primary service of trying to be closer to Hashem. From such a perspective, the only way to change things is to work from within. Acknowledge that Torah is the most important thing, and that we are here primarily to follow the Torah's laws - that is unequivocally the Jewish mission - not to save an economy. But of course, we have to live in this world and we must do our hishtadlus. That's why we eat and why we try to be healthy because we need to live in this world - in order to continue doing our very avodas Hashem. And if the world, or in this case, the state collapses, a lot less Torah will be learned and a lot less avodas Hashem will take place.
I agree that there is too much the other way in Israel and a balance is necessary. In America there is more of an appropriate balance. We have secular educations (although unfortunately they are not all taken so seriously) and it is more acceptable to go to work, while at the same time it is very highly encouraged to try to stay in learning, and that going to work is 2nd best, which is enough of a push for the best of the ovdei Hashem usually stick to learning, while the others go to work eventually.
In Israel things are more extreme. That is a problem.
But, like in any conservative culture, any kind of major reformation is frowned upon because reforms usually hurt the primary cause more than they help the lower cause. Whatever reforms you suggest will have a detrimental affect on the avodas Hashem , no doubt.
This is the issue with politics. Liberals, usually those who disregard the importance of the conservative mindset, are more than happy to change and reform, because the eggs they break along the way are not at all important. But the conservatives, because of their higher ideals, are allergic to reforms because reforms always damage the ideals they trying to hard to conserve.
So what do we do? I'm not sure the answer is quite so simple.
I guess we educate the liberals that our ideals are actually very important. And we educate the conservatives that there needs to be some reform in these matters.
Dovid, you raise a very important point about the nature of conservatives trying to conserve something.
In this case however, the error is that the israeli chareidim are not actually trying to conserve “adherence to Torah” they are trying to conserve a Chareidi lifestyle that in itself is a very new development. (Which might or might not be a little oxymoronic if referred to as being conservative)
Thus when you write, “Any answers you can possibly provide will limit their adherence to the Torah. If you propose a secular education, or going to work, or going to the army etc., that comes at the expense of the other important things they are doing.”
That second sentence is accurate, but the first sentence is in error. More specifically: education, work, army may come at expense of things that are important to a Chareidi lifestyle, but at the same time education, work, army are actually critical to adhering to Torah and do Not in any way detract from it.
You mentioned yourself how Rambam worked; Rashi worked; Chazal (mostly) worked. Working is part of Torah…. Even before we are commanded to keep Shabbat, the Torah says six days a week we are to work.
You astutely note: “Acknowledge that Torah is the most important thing, and that we are here primarily to follow the Torah's laws - that is unequivocally the Jewish mission”
Absolutely, but it is the Israeli chareidi definition of what Torah requires which is in error. Yes, the Israeli Chareidim are conservative, but it is neither Torah nor Torah values that they are seeking to conserve.
By the way, I am NOT saying that “conserving such a Chareidi lifestyle is not important, or at least not important to those who live it and also not important to be respected by those who do not live it.” (After all, Israeli chareidim were also created in the image of G-D, just like those who want to follow Torah, so we should respect their lifestyle choices)
Just that we shouldn’t confuse or conflate the Israeli Chareidi lifestyle with what the Torah requires, because they are not the same.
Thanks for your thoughtful response, but perhaps it isn't clear to you what I am referring to when I talk of "avodas Hashem," what the *conservative* chareidim are trying to preserve. My opinion here in the comment section is primarily in line with DNS: to promote the Maimonedies legacy of Judaism. When I talk about avodas Hashem, I don't mean just doing mitzvos and learning Torah. I mean the Rambam's version of the Jewish mission: connecting to HKBH. Our job as Yisroel is: on a personal level - to bring God into our cold, Godless lives; and to the world at large, by representing Him and bringing Him and His ideas to this cold, Godless world. This happens through thinking about God and His laws, i.e., learning and following the Torah.
Yes, the Rambam went to work, but bitterly (emphasis added) complained about how it affected his lifelong mission. He wished he could just sit in the desert and focus on Hashem's Torah and avoda all day without bodily, worldly interruption. In no way did he shirk his responsibilities because of this, nor would he tell anyone to - we live in a body and have to take care of ourselves, but by all standards, primary avodas Hashem is the consistent, uninterrupted love of Hashem and complete focus on that (בכל לבבכם ובכל נפשכם). That is Judaism 101, especially Maimonides Judaism 101.
The question is, today, what is the best (and arguably the only) way to enable this true avodas Hashem. 1) we are much 'shvacher' than the Rambam, who himself had trouble juggling. 2) the workforce today requires a lot more time than the Rambam's 'baal habos' who would still learn 8 hours a day. (I would have almost the highest respect for someone who worked and still learned Torah well for 5-6 uninterrupted hours! Do we find anyone who can do that today?) 3) the workforce is antithetical to torah, and I don't mean values, I mean just in the chumrius of it all - back then there was a more 'ruchniyusdike' climate in the world (by golly, Greek philosophy was still popular back then!). 4) the workforce in antithetical to torah, and now I mean in values.
The chareidim feel that the only way to properly serve Hashem is to promote the kollel lifestyle. Are they even wrong? Do we know anyone that goes to work and still makes his Torah the *ikkar*? It is very, very rare, and surely unsustainable for a public that is striving to make Hashem their absolute center.
I don't know what the answer is. If the system is unsustainable from a scientific perspective, if the system is being abused, if people are asking for too many handouts, these are not issues that should be taken lightly. But for the most part, it is the people who already don't agree with our mission statement that are the ones who are so worried because the mission doesn't matter anyways; might as well tear it down. Are the issues they raise valid? Probably, but even more so the the issues with changing the system. This is the conservative-liberal balance. Far from me to have answers. Possibly far from anybody, in which case perhaps we should just let Hashem run His world and we busy ourselves with the plan He laid out for us, following the Torah and being worried (חרד) about that.
Now, if I am misrepresenting the Rambam or authentic Judaism, that is a different story entirely, and I'm happy to have that discussion, but if I am correct, the issue just isn't so simple.
Thanks again, I hope to hear back. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Meanwhile, good Shabbos to you!
I don’t agree that the Rambam really wanted to sit in a desert all day every day.
Sure he said every Chasid should strive to separate and be alone and only interact with others when absolutely necessary. But the things he suggested should be avoided included eating, drinking, washing, spending time with his wife and his own young children. (Moreh ch.51).
But, clearly none of that is practical. I view the “bitter complaints” as you describe them) expressed by by the Rambam to be similar to those expressed by Oskar Schindler at the very poignant scene at the end of Schindler’s list. He too bitterly complains that he didn’t do enough. That he didn’t save enough lives. He points to his car and says it could have bought ten more; he pulls out his his swastika pin and says its gold could have bought another life. He his full of regrets after doing so much good. And of course those specific examples are ludicrous - how could he have run his camp without a car? How could he have fit in with the Nazi elite without his pin?
It’s the same with the Rambam in the Moreh; he had spent his days creating and defending monumental works of Torah. And then, as he’s nearing the final decade of his life, he looks back and says if I didn’t marry, I didn’t have kids, if I didn’t eat or drink or work, if I didn’t travel to Egypt, if I didn’t waste time doing any of these things, then I could have done more.
Is he right? Was (Steven Speilberg’s/ Liam Neeson’s portrayal of) Oskar Schindler? He’s full of regrets looking back on such good he did. Maybe that’s how we should want to feel nearing the end and looking back. But prospectively looking forward, we need to eat, love, have children, work, it is what G-D wants of us and it is all part of being Holech b’Drachav as well as appreciating the world G-D chose to put us in. Compare to hilchot De’ot 3:1. It is a derech Ra’ah and assur to abstain from the world and one who does so is a Choteh.
I don't think that is what the Rambam meant at all! Nice analogy from Schindler and beautiful sentiment, but the Rambam, IMO, wasn't expressing a regretful attitude at all. The Rambam's point was that the more one is single minded to his avodas Hashem, the more the עולם השכל opens up to him, and since כפי ההשגה כך האהבה (Rambam ibid., Kapah translation), any time one has to be involved in this world, he is automatically disconnecting from Hashem, as he describes in perek 51 ibid. at great length, as well in the hakdama. As if to say that this world is a b'dieved entirely, but that is exactly our avoda, to live here and reach for the stars, but the more we can not live 'here,' the better. As practical as he was, and as much as a realist as he was, his love for his Creator was such that he just couldn't get enough of Him, which only happens with tremendous רציפות, any interruption and we're back to where we started. The Rambam was not saying to abstain completely, but he was very pro extreme forms of abstinence as higher levels are reached. His son Reb Avraham, a perfect disciple of his father, in the HaMaspik, devotes many pages to this end.
So yes, we have to do what we have to do, but Hashem is to always be on our minds, and we should constantly be running to try and connect. If the world makes it crazy and we just can't get there, we have to devise ways of keeping our mission alive. Hence the kollelim.
And by the way, this is only the Rambam's opinion, the Kuzari was a whole lot more moderate when it comes to this, as was the Nefesh haChaim. To the Rambam, this was Judaism, as wisdom was to the philosophers. The mekubalim were more into Maaseh, while this whole area was a bonus, meant for the cream of the crop (which in that case, the kollel initiative is still necessary, both for real maaseh and to create that cream).
Very well presented, and I think most Chareidi people in the US think this way, and a silent big fraction (I won't say majority) in Israel as well. I do think that things can start slowly with a few people and eventually taking root. This can especially happen when there are larger numbers and more fall-outs of the system.
Lakewood for example changed drastically, as 25 years ago you couldn't get your kid into school if you worked, and today the vast majority of people over 30 are in the business world.
20 years ago almost no girls went to college, and today most girls from Yeshivish family's go for a degree right out of seminary. This has slowly started in Israel too, albeit with much resistance, but I am sure there will be progress over the next 20 years.
Things may take time but we'll catch up eventually, and If done in a healthy way stating from within, maybe Chareidi values won't be compromised as much.
I'm not so optimistic from a realist standpoint though. America was never as extreme as Israel; there was always a major acceptable balabatish community, even if not in Lakewood, and that community has moved over and become one with Lakewood. From what I understand about Israel and the leadership there, they aren't moving anywhere to fast. And the outside world is waaaay more dangerous today, especially for someone sheltered, so I imagine there'll only be stronger resistance. But we'll see.
And to be clear, I'm pro the Chareidi system even in Israel in general, I just feel like there is less personal guidance for the individual and that person who in America would talk to his Rebbi and go to work ends up languishing in (an irresponsible) no-man's land for no reason, nebach, beause that's what is done.
When the Jewish people are in charge of their lives,as when they have a state, they have responsibility for all parts of life. We can't and won't depend on the goyim. Then all aspects of life have a holy aspect in that the Torah in Israel is fulfilled by a functioning society for the benefit of the people. The Chazon Ish expressed this idea in relation to the Mitzvah of Yishiv Haatetz. Therefore even the delivery boy in some sense is fulfilling this Mitzvah. So talk of not being involved in matters not connected to learning Torah is not fulfilling the Torah as well as not being realistic.
But (a) since the chareidi system is set up like that, like it or not, being liberal and changing the system will have negative repercussions and will be difficult to implement. Should they do like we do in America and get an education when they're young? If not doing that leads to tremendous life issues when they get older, probably, unless they are learning seriously then already (most kids are not). But since implementation of such a thing in the current climate will lead to other problems, conservatives are wary of changing a system, even a flawed one, lest the new system will have bigger flaws, which isn't at all unfounded. Therefore, we are an unfortunate impasse.
And (b) nowadays it really is hard to learn and reach a deep connection with Hashem while being busy with other things. None other than the Rambam himself had trouble with lifelong mission of getting close to Hashem due to his numerous other responsibilities (which he sort of complains about at the end of Moreh ;), though he of course did not shirk them in any way. All the more so, אנחנו יתמי דיתמי have trouble with our mission while needing to be involved with other things. I really do understand the point of a Kollel lifestyle for this reason. Again this doesn't mean people shouldn't be responsible, but no question that alternative will lead to less closeness to Hashem. I guess the point is that I don't condone the individuals but I do understand *well* where the movement is coming from (to preserve authentic Judaism) and being liberal with such lofty ideals is really not at all simple.
"And the reactions to such sentiments of moderation shall be swift and furious."
Agreed:( And the reaction to educating the liberals in the importance of תורה ועבודה will be equally swift and furious. I really think it is a lost cause, and Hashem should protect us all.
Many laws have been passed In Israel (in America, too) with the barest of one-vote margin majorities. The Oslo accords, easily the biggest disaster in Israel history' was pushed through by Rabin on a 61 seat majority.
true, but what do you suggest? An all out war and whoever wins wins? First of all, the chareidim have large numbers so they probably won't lose. There are enough askanim that are connected and know how to lobby. I just don't see that happening. Second, at this point there are just two camps and we need the chareidim to be serving Hashem at their max, and we also need the army and economy to run. If the chareidim actually do lose their funding completely, besides that they will not take that sitting down and who knows what kind of repercussions that will have, but also, we need their avodas Hashem! We wish they could do it differently, but right now they just can't.
I'm just pointing out that after all of Natan's complaints, what does he actually propose? Other than abolishing a system he doesn't like anyways. I'd love for him to spell out his alternative...
The Haredim do not need to be changed. All that has to happen is for the Likud (or at least a part of it) and non-Haredi RW parties to stop with the handouts. If the government would ever stop giving free education, free healthcare, child payments, kollel stipends and free daycare to people who choose not to work, the Haredim will be begging to teach English and Math in their schools and flood the IDF recruitment offices.
Well said, but it's a democracy and the chareidim are not pining for your plan. I don't see how we could practically change the government without changing them...
Lol, agreed. That's what I wrote, "And if the world, or in this case, the state collapses, a lot less Torah will be learned and a lot less avodas Hashem will take place."
The deeper problem, I think, is that haredi leadership (Litvishe leadership in particular) has long been incapable of providing solutions to ANYTHING, even the things that they have thought about and even things far less complex than those of educational policy.
Example: Digital water meters.
Mekorot let people know they'd be switching to digital water meters.
Litvishe haredi leadership said the meters could not be used on Shabbos.
Solution given?
None.
A haredi publication published a detailed article by (as I recall) a member of Rav Vozner's Beis Din, arguing that use of the meters on Shabbos was perfectly fine, even according to Chazon Ish.
Haredi leadership denounced the article and said that one must expel the article from one's home.
Badatz meanwhile met with an engineer and came up with a less problematic design, which Mekorot agreed to.
Bnei Brak leadership announced that this design as well was unacceptable.
And what solutions did they come up with, given that Mekorot wasn't asking their permission regarding water meters and would be installing them no matter what?
None.
No solution at all, as far as I know.
Yes, a solution was ultimately found.
But the initiative for finding one did not, as far as I know, come from Bnei Brak leadership.
Here's a link to the broadside against the Bnei Brak posek who dared to deal with the issue and write a comprehensive analysis that shows the design to be OK (see page 2 for the declaration by one of those leaders): http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/10/blog-post.html
It's really not correct to fault the Haredim for this. Ultimately the Haredim have just been taking what's been given to them. The reason they don't serve in the IDF or contribute in a meaningful way to the tax base has nothing to do with "Torah protecting" or because "frum people have always only studied Torah all day long and not worked since the time of Moshe Rabeinu". The reason these things are as they are is because since Menachem Begin's time they have been given gifts for their political support in the governing coalitions. (Up until 1977 for example there were only 400 total IDF exemptions for Torah learning for the entire country.) For the last 40 years since Likud has more or less ruled the country this has been the policy. If the rest of the country doesn't want to fall into economic and security oblivion, it's probably time for everyone else to ask themselves if these handouts (like free childcare, free education, free healthcare, arnona discounts, kollel stipends, etc.) should continue going to people who choose not to work. The Left has been asking this question for a little while now. The hope is that the Center will also start asking this question.
Yes, and it's fascinating how the hashkafic justifications are retroactively applied.
The lesson here is simple: when someone is used to getting something for free, they will raise holy hell when you try to take it away from them. That's how welfare benefits turn into "entitlements".
(By the way, even the Chazon Ish never said that most chareidi men should sit and learn all day and not work!)
There are plenty of urgent places to put government money, old age Bituach Leumi, help to Holocaust survivors, hospitals, doctors, nurses, education,teachers etc.. Learning Torah ? Of course! But it won't happen if Chareidim continue with no Army service and massive Kollel.
The government doesn't have any money of it's own, only what it forcefully takes from it's citizens. Redistributing stolen resources to Holocaust survivors, doctors and teachers is not in any way, shape, or form, morally superior than to give them to Charedim. In fact, once the looting is legal the ones with the most political clout will use their pull to dish out the plunder to their own supporters. Instead of condoning the theft and then condemning recipients, condemn the theft altogether.
What are you talking about? The legitimately elected government performs it's legal duties as prescribed by law. There is no theft because it collects taxes by law. The money serves the needs of the people. The people need basic services.Of course it is because it serves the public. The Chareidim are not the whole public. The government's first responsibility is to the general public. Private interests are taken care of by individuals,corporations etc..
We're not for socialism.The government is not for taking care of all the personal needs of Chareidim as you imply.
Government taking from one citizen and giving it to another is theft. If it is legal that just makes it legal theft. The roll of government is to protect our natural right to life, liberty and property by creating law and order. They have no right to provide healthcare, education or elderly support. Holocaust survivor support, medical bills and education are personal interests, they should be taken care of in the marketplace. Like Charedim, the whole public does not consist of Holocaust survivors or people in need of [or at least equal amounts of] medical attention. Should a citizen with no children pay for the education of a family with 5 children in school? Once you legitimize one private interest by sending your henchmen in government to force another to pay for it, then you legitimize plunder. If you are for this, than you are for socialism. This is why the country is so divisive, because we are each fighting to use the scarce confiscated booty for our own personal interests.
natural right ? Landed rights naturally are the property of all.
Natural law is strength rules weakness.
Natural isn't synonymous with good. Flu and cancer and heart disease are natural. Cruelty is natural.
Socialism isnt worse than the the present concentration of capital in the hands of 1 tenth of a percent . If you're businesses rely on roads ports railways built and subsidized by generations of taxes , and technology fumded by taxpayers over generations ( over 80% of the tech in an iphone was made by the army) taxation for public good is right and just . Healthcare should be universal as should education and an unqualified universal basic income. The problem is implementation not morality or justice.
Judaism respects private property and protects it. But we believe in charity which is צדקה, righteousness,hense the welfare state, a safety net. But not for every private interest unless it serves and is valued by the general public.Therefore medical care, hospitals, schools etc. the welfare state with limits.
"Tzedaka", is when you reach into your own pocket in order to help another. Forcing somebody else to take out of his pocket [even for a righteous cause] is called "gezel."
That is the moral argument. The practical argument is that a private charity will provide the needed service better and at a much lower cost than an office of government bureaucrats.
I love your Bureaucropoly game (really, I do, I even just sent you a "like") but seriously, in a game. Not in real life. This topic has been debated ad nauseam, you can try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z37TcI-AxB0 or any number of books or videos about this...
"The problem is so blindingly obvious that even Jonathan Rosenblum dedicated a column to it in Mishpacha magazine several years ago..."
He did, did he? Let's check that.
Your embedded link, which is made to appear as though a click on it will take us to the alleged column, actually doesn't take us there. Instead, it takes us to another NS column, from 2015. Eight years ago is not quite "several years ago", but more importantly, citing your own column doesn't constitute evidence of anything. Shall we continue?
That 2015 columns contains a similar claim: "Recently I highlighted Jonathan Rosenblum's article in Mishpacha Magazine calling for wholesale reform in the Charedi way of life vis-a-vis Torah study." Another hyperlink, and this time for sure we thought it would take us to the alleged article. Nope. Here again, it just takes us to yet another NS article, this time from even earlier, 2014. We are now three NS columns deep into the JR claims, still no proof of anything. Again, shall we continue?
The 2014 article contains no link at all. Thus, after following the trail, we ultimately come up with...nothing. No link to any article where Rosenblum allegedly calls for "wholesale reform" of the Charedi way of life, for everything. Not even a sustained block quote. (By contrast, the 2014 article also claims, as a separate aside, that Rosenblum "on previous occasions, has likened the kolel system to toxic chemotherapy", and this time does provide a link, to a 2008 article. You can see for yourself if the claim is accurate, and so as not to confuse topics, I'll say nothing about that here.) A lot of links, designed to give the veneer of transparency and authenticity, all of which add up to nothing.
In short, as has been shown time and again and again, you cannot trust anything you see in an NS column.
Ripoff, eh? That is NOT the article NS claimed to be paraphrasing. Please read more carefully. He writes " Recently I highlighted JR's article in Mishpacha....However, in that article he did not detail the reason for such reform. In his latest extraordinary column, he spells it out." Those are two different references, and there are hyperlinks in each sentence. The SECOND one leads to the article you cite. But the FIRST, which is the one I was addressing, leads to nothing but another NS article. No, NS, we *never* get to the original article, because you never wanted to show your readers how badly you misrepresented it.
You do know that Mishpacha is not an all-online publication so that linking is generally not possible? This post has an extensive excerpt: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rosenblum-calls-for-reform. But you are right; R Slifkin should have offered to send a back issue to every reader. What a ripoff.
You obviously do not know that Jonathan Rosenbloom posts all his content at his own web site. Including Mishpacha articles. But you are obviously retarded. so this is expected.
Slifkin is perfectly capable of linking directly to the articles in question but won't. Rather, he forces readers to click through multiple RJ articles before...crickets. Therefore, clickbait. Perhaps even non-existent.
You are right, I didn't know that. So this is your big chance to show that R Slifkin misquoted Rosenblum when he reproduced the text of his Mishpacha article instead of linking to it (whereas he linked to his articles in cross-currents in his other posts). To save you time here it is: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rosenblum-calls-for-reform. Let me know when you are done.
The classy thing would be just to admit you made a mistake. But no. Like all lefties, you just double down.
If the actual article not online, then don't put in a hyperlink that doesn't actually take you there. It's the equivalent of a misrepresented citation. Or find a different outlet to cite, as NS did with Cross Currents. Or if there's nothing at all, then take the time to cite his actual words, in a sustained block quote, so we can see that it's been portrayed accurately. And at the very least, when you know you've offered a false portrayal, don't double down, like you did, and keep citing to it again and again and again.
OK. You are obviously not capable of following what I already said three times - that he provided a link to one article, but repeatedly hid the link to the article he keeps falsely paraphrasing - so I'm not going to say it again. Just do us all a favor, and next time your knee jerks to defend NS, take the time to either read the criticism more carefully, or if you don't understand, ask someone. I'll waste no more time on this topic.
I'm reading the Alter of Novardock's essay on bitachon. So I can guess at the Gedolim's plan. He says the Torah commands true bitachon: don't worry about stuff like this, trust God to take care of it, and the more you trust God, the more God will take care of it. And trying to do anything about it on your own shows lack of bitachon.
So the probable plan is do nothing ourselves and let God take care of it.
So Yaacov did not have proper Bitachon when he prepared to meet Eesav in battle.Money falls from trees. The Jews in the Desert didn't have to prepare for battle.
This doesn't negate your point but first of all, remember what they were defending. Yaakov was working to create God's people and that was the driving force of every single thing he did in his entire life. When he was preparing for battle, it was against an enemy of God, Eisav, and was purely avodas Hashem. The Jews in the dessert were the am Hashem and when they fought battles it was against those who were against Hashem, the ovdei avoda zara. Hishtadlus in that context is very different than the one described here. Again, this doesn't negate our need for hishtadlus, but it's not fair to bring them in here. If the Israeli army was defending the am Hashem, they would be doing God's work as well. But they are not; they are protecting a secular nation, not God's.
"If the Israeli army was defending the am Hashem, they would be doing God's work as well. But they are not; they are protecting a secular nation, not God's. "
You're being very silly. First of all, the Israeli army is not defending anyone. They are not even doing hishtadlut. They are engaged in a מלחמת מצוה. As such they are doing God's work. And Israel is not a secular nation, despite what you and some secularists believe. And עם ישראל is God's nation.
Honestly, I don't think that HGL actually puts any thought into what he writes. He just spouts whatever pops into his head. (That's probably also why he's too afraid to use his real name. Doesn't want the accountability.)
Apparently, as we see from the example of yourself, using your real name is no guarantee of being held accountable!
You can get away with spewing nonsense all day long, like "Relationship with Hashem is just fluffy spirituality" or "Torah doesn't practically protect because there are attacks on shuls" or "Tosafos thought centipedes had asymmetric legs because Aristotle though men have more teeth", and none of your cronies hold you accountable!
Natan, if you don't get what I'm saying, that's on you. My point here was a simple one, if you disagree, please highlight where you disagree:
1. What is Yirsoel? Those who learn, follow and promote Hashem and His Torah. Do you agree with that?
2. For Yisroel, everything we do is supposed to be to get closer and bring the world closer to Hashem. Do you disagree?
3. Yaakov Avinu's every move, thought and action was למען שמו יתברך באהבה, as the Rambam describes beautifully in the מורה. Do you disagree?
4. Hishtadlus, from a Jewish perspective, is just another form of עבודת השם. We eat in order to sustain our bodies in order to be able to continue functioning and serving Hashem. We may not all be quite so lofty, but that is the Yiddishe hashkafa. Do you disagree?
5. If someone is against עבודת השם, and despises those who spend their days learning השם's Torah, and doesn't think that's what life is about, is he living Hashem's life?
6. This does not mean that we shouldn't be doing hishtadlus - it may very well be that at the current rate the economy will collapse and if so, much less Torah will be learned. Just like we need to individually eat to survive, again *in order to continue our עבודת השם*, we need to live in a stable, sustainable way as a whole. So from a Torah perspective we may need to figure things out.
7. But in the current Israeli climate, עבודת השם seems to be very absent from the mindsets of the chiloni population - to an extreme, do you disagree?
And the chareidim are, perhaps subconsciously, countering that by going extreme the other way.
How do you propose we fix the situation without hurting the higher cause of עבודת השם? (Again, see my comment below.)
"And the chareidim are, perhaps subconsciously, countering that by going extreme the other way."
How many charedim are 'going extreme the other way'? How exactly do they 'go extreme the other way'? The gur on gur violence? The trash burning? The stone throwing? The four page spread on private swimming pools in last week's binoh? The minyan factories? Those blogging on the internet in contravention of da'as torah? The long glamorous sheitels, again in contravention of da'as torah? The disregard of health and safety (summer vacation is nearly upon us, let us daven there are no drownings or near drownings, lost on mountains or nearly lost on mountains this year)? The COVID rule breaking? The slumlords? The failure to deal with sexual molesters? The nepotism, corruption, protekzia, lack of holding leaders to account, lack of transparency etc etc.
Did anybody read 'The Emperor's new clothes' to you when you were a kid? It describes chareidi society very well. The advisors (mashgichim of yeshivos, the 'heimish press' etc) all proclaim how amazing charedi society is, but when one peeks below the service.......
And what is מלחמת מצוה? Isn't that hishtadlus? מלחמה against and for whom? To promote עבודת השם? If so, I retract. Show me how...
What I mean by God's nation is followers of the Torah. If their intent was to promote Torah learning and following the Torah, that would be commendable (some of them do feel that way), but I doubt they would have such animosity towards the ones actually learning Torah if that was their mission...
Not necessarily. The simple הלכה that all are obligated to fight in a מלמחת מצוה indicates that the rules of such a war need not follow the normal exertions dictated by nature.
I question your assertion of it being a מלחמת מצוה altogether - what do you think makes it such? The only reason it would be is because we fight to preserve or expand כלל ישראל who are the people of Hashem, because they follow His Torah, nothing else. We stand for Him and that's the only reason why we even matter. Preserving us, if it is in fact מלחמת מצוה, is God's service only for that reason.
Its seems that the only way things will change in the chareidi sector is when it actually gets to a point of economic non feasibility. Up until that point things are not likely to change
The country cannot be sustained by Israelis 'supporting' the Haredim? The state of Israel is THE biggest shnorrer in the history of mankind! Yes without the mega dollars from American donors there would be no airforce- no tanks, no roads and no hospitals in Israel- indeed no Israel! Every wall in every israeli hospital is plastered with plaques declaring the foreign donors who built it! And much of the support from U.S. taxpayers money is from the millions of americans who appreciate the Jews who keep the Torah......
The chareidi community's dangerously out of control demand for flyers, stickers and signs must be stopped before it bankrupts the Israeli economy. Hundreds of thousands of printed solicitations for various events, causes and news items flood Israeli streets daily, monopolizing public space in an indiscriminate, uncivilized manner.
According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, over 300 million pieces of paper are used for chareidi stickers and flyers annually, costing over 150 million shekels in printing costs alone. This figure does not include the tens of millions spent each year on raw materials for metal signs, plastic stickers and adhesive paper. The social cost in terms of shortage of raw materials, pollution and visual blight is incalculable.
The community attempts to justify this by quotingTalmudic statements about the importance of publicizing mitzvos and good deeds (Ketubot 105a). However they conveniently ignore the Talmud's accompanying statements about not being overly ostentatious. Jonathan Haidt's research suggests groups high in cohesion tend to exaggerate displays of within-group trust and sacrifice as a means of group identity. The constant printing may serve more as a flag-waving exercises in chareidi separatism than a true religious obligation.
The chareidim claim they deserve state support due to the social benefits of large families and Torah study. Yet as long as they continue to squander massive amounts of resources on overprinting, at taxpayer expense, they have no credible claim for more funding. Israeli taxpayers have a right to demand fiscal responsibility before giving further handouts. The chareidi printing crisis must be tackled with strict regulation of signage if Israel hopes to avoid a financial meltdown.
I would like to know the source/origin of the 'well Rabbi X is smarter than everyone and if he does/says so than we'll rely on him'. I don't see such a thing in the Geonim or Rishonim. I believe that phenomenon is different than Daas Torah but is also complimentary to it.
Rabbi Slifkin, your site without HGL is like the Knesset without the Likud. Like cholent without kishke. This site will be so boring without the lively and witty debate that he brings to the table. Please reconsider your ban on him.
....and like an 'exotic' biblical feast featuring lentils and sotah-cake.
Ok Doc, Happy has put out a magnanimous apology: https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-public-apology-to-rabbi-dr-slifkin
Time to lift the ban.
The economists in Israel agree with slifkin and the chareidi leadership is not addressing the issue as far as I'm aware. Until they address the issue we can rightfully assume they don't know the facts.
That's why I said get an economics education to find out what economics can and cannot predict. As somebody wise once said, "God created economists to make astrologers look good."
If economy can't be predicted by economists, who can predict it? Are we not supposed to care about these matters leaving them up to Hashem?
Who says you are supposed to pretend to predict things like what the chareidim will do in 20 years? Ridiculous. Economists who make such predictions are no better than dime-store palm readers.
Every successful modern society makes predictions and builds economic models around them. That's one thing which gives western countries their edge. They have the research.
This is completely false. No modern society is able to make such long-term prediction about such variable and unstable factors. Complete pie-in-the-sky dream thinking.
So you agree that R. Slifkin’s prediction holds unless the chareidim change their behavior? Isn’t that identical to his position?
I made this amazing prediction that we won't be able to flush toilets in two hundred years if all the pipes rust and we haven't done anything about it by then.
Do you realize you've contradicted yourself in one single sentence? The article addressed the phenomenon of Charedi spokespeople refuse to explain away economic concerns and instead defer to the Gedolim. "There is no doubt that HaGaon Rav Shteinman is smart enough to have thought of the issues raised by President Rivlin and Jonathan Rosenblum."
And yet, you've offered an explanation. You know the secret plan- that there's nothing to worry about, because these sort of economic predictions are bunk. Do you think that this was the secret knowledge held by Rav Shteinmann?
If you agree with the author of the article, then you shouldn't assume you know the secret reasons of Rav Shteinmann. You should take the same approach and simply accept the status quo without providing the explanation that you have revealed here. By providing your own explanation, you've shown yourself unwilling to defer to the Gedolim's reasons and silence in not revealing them.
What makes you think that Rav Shteinman is “ smart enough to have thought of the issues raised by President Rivlin and Jonathan Rosenblum” ? He may have been particularly adroit in elaborating halacha, but has he offered a response to the economic challenges posed by non-working chareidi society? Does he think it might be a problem for Israeli society?
I'm not addressing Rav Shteinmann. I'm not even quoting him directly. It's about the secret reasons of the Gedolim which must be taken on faith. HGL has deviated from this orthodoxy by claiming he knows the secret.
Doesn't take much daas Torah to realize you can't make such predictions (unless you are a navi).
@HappyGo,
Why not? Daas Torah makes all sorts of predictions. It predicts that the Torah offers protection from evil, predicts Hashem will kill you for reasons X, Y and Z. But you may be correct that Daas Torah is incapable of predicting economic consequences of bad financial behavior. It doesn’t take much thought to recognize that overly increasing the money supply might lead to bad inflation, unless of course you’re wedded to a religious doctrine that is impervious to monetary and fiscal cause and effect.
Side point in this conversation and probably not that you care, but those examples are not daas Torah; those are the from the Torah itself.
"By providing your own explanation,you've shown yourself unwilling to defer to the Gedolim' s reasons and silence in not revealing them." The Torah is not a secret cult. A pesak must be backed by stating the basis. This not a matter of trust.It must be open to debate. The Gedolim's authority is based on scholarship and respect for their dedication etc.. We we're not talking about Chassideshi Rebbe's.
See o what's your plan? Oh everything is okay and we should continue the way we are.
What's your plan to address chillul Shabbos and arayos?
Perhaps all non-observant (by your standards) people, who are earning a living, paying taxes and serving in the IDF should be sent into exile, back to US or Europe. Regrettably the country won't survive. Would country survive and prosper without the free-loaders?
No, I am not anti-religious or anti-yeshivot just anti-free-loaders gaming the system at everyone's expense.
I am waiting for lessons in economics from Happy. Tell me all about money falling from heaven to support the Free-loaders (call them by proper name.) Perhaps they can be supported by voluntary charitable contributions.
Perhaps they will come to realize the halachic obligation to work (dirty word) for a living. It worked for Rambam and most of the tannaim.
The country wouldn't survive without the observant. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
The first economic lesson is to not make long-term predictions about highly unstable situations. There, you can go home now.
Every other country in the world survives without 30% of it's population freeloading. Every other country. Your assertion is nonsense
No they don't. There are wars that kill many thousands all the time. Israel is surrounded by millions of bloodthirsty enemies.
You seem to be highly skeptical of R. Slifkin’s prediction that Israel’s economy is in peril unless the large and growing sector of socioeconomic parasites change their behavior, but not nearly as skeptical of your own prediction (such as it is) that Torah protects. Motivated skepticism?
Simple, one is from the entire Torah, and one is from a museum curator who has no idea what he's talking about most of the time.
I guess you can have and shout you opinions, even if they are absurd and irrational.
Nothing more absurd than being a kofer and pretending to represent Judaism.
You can’t mitigate his question by saying “there are other issues out there, like chilul Shabbos etc., so his question is null and void.” No. The question is legitimate. Your answer is legitimate. RNS’s post is legitimate. But everyone’s going around in circles. Happy, your answers - and your blog - don’t actually answer the questions. They just raise other issues.
I never said it answered the question (which is a silly question anyways), it just shows he's fundamentally unserious by selectively raising questions against those he perceives as enemies when there are equally or more critical questions that can be raised on his approach.
You have been asked a direct question. Answer it or be quiet. Don't try your usual threadbare whattaboutism, ad hominems, desperate deflection, special pleading, or lashing out. It will come down to begging from Hashem, begging from economically productive Jews, or stealing government money from the needy
What do "chillul Shabbos and arayos" have to with economic sustainability?
A lot. See this https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
Not relevant to dereliction of duty to go to the Army and go to work after receiving an appropriate education.
Dont you know society owes everything to Chareidim but Chareidim don't owe society to serve in the Army to protect them and everyone else and to work to contribute to the economic welfare of the State. Why do the nonreligious and some religious resent the Chareidim? You can figure that out. Time for a change.
Tell us about your qualifications in economics. We'll wait
The economists are in agreement with Rabbi Slifkin. The massive dependency of the Charedim and the drain they represent on the economy cannot be sustained
Guess you also need an economics education regarding what economics can and cannot predict.
Very simple pay your own way and no one has to die for you. Is that too hard to understand!?
Uh, ok, if you don't want to die for us, don't.
My graduate advisor in economics would have been very surprised to hear that. You don't even need to do complex numerical predictions. A sky high dependency ratio like that makes everyone poorer and stresses all sectors of the economy. This decreases the nation's economic surplus, it's ability to react to change and lowers its productivity in a vicious downward spiral. This is freshman level stuff.
I realize you are probably not this old, but was your graduate advisor Thomas Malthus? Or Irving Fisher?
Was your graduate advisor Pollyana?
First get your community to start keeping Shabbos and Nida, then we can worry about the economy and Pollyana.
You were given many chances to behave like an adult and to speak in good faith. You chose to stick with your usual crud. I will not engage with people who are incapable of normal adult behavior. Go away. Stay away
If you would have asked a serious question I would have given you a serious answer. But declaring "the hareidi parasites will be our ruin" is obviously not a serious question. Also, an open atheist like you has no right saying "Eretz Yisrael". Say Israel instead.
Already asked you: What is your academic or professional background in economics? Don't screech insults. Don't ook your usual deflection. Don't puff yourself up with fake outrage. Don't lie. Just answer the question.
Then tell us with an extra 30% of the workforce not working where will the money come from? You can only do so much begging before the workers are tapped out. You can only take so much from the government before infrastructure breaks down, the heroes who actually defend Eretz Yisrael aren't paid, healthcare isn't provided, and the real schools closed.
Where. Does. The. Money. Come. From?
Answer the questions you have been asked without changing the subject or moving the goalposts. Or shut up and go away because you aren't speaking in good faith
"His reason? “The Gedolim are against them.” And what about the endless yeshiva high schools in the US which do provide secular education? “The Gedolim are for them.” "
This is a deeply inaccurate caricature of his position, as spelled out in the very article which you screenshotted. What he says is that the schools in the chu"l were founded by yirei shamayim with the support of the gedolim, and have thereby produced generations of bnei torah. By contrast, the ones in Israel were founded by people attempting to weaken religion and reform charedi society. He continues by recounting how every year new olim come to him to complain bitterly about how they were misled by the mamlachti charedi folks and that as a consequence they're now worse off spiritually than they were in chu"l.
(Note that whether he's right or not about those assertions isn't my point; your distortion of his position is.)
======
"it was criticized by a rabbi in my neighborhood who, although teaching in a yeshiva for non-charedi students, is himself charedi (and this is exactly why it’s a problem when non-charedi institutions have charedi teachers). "
It might not be the brightest idea to whine about charedim being blind to future consequences, not having a plan for the long term, etc, in the same article in which you bemoan that non-charedim apparently hire charedim to turn their *own* kids into charedim.
So let the Israeli gedolim open such a school. Why wont they?
Depends on the Gadol and depends what type of school. R Shteinman ZT"L was particularly uncompromising in that regard. He thought there shouldn't be such schools in America either. https://www.makorrishon.co.il/nrg/online/1/ART/831/485.html
He's also been in the yeshiva shel ma'alah for a few years already, during which time charedi society has further splintered into sub-factions and sub-sub-factions.
(Also, I think charedim in EY are defined in large part by their opposition to any outside influences in a way in which Americans aren't. My hunch is that a lot of that is collective trauma from the fights between the yishuv hayashan and the founders of the state. Large parts of the charedi world still see themselves standing alongside R Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld athwart the secularist mapainiks like Ben Gurion. American Jewry has had the opposite trajectory, with early settlers tending to be more assimilated, while the European Roshei Yeshiva and Chassidishe Rebbeim arrived later. But that's just my own semi-educated speculation.)
Agreed. My opinion (of why they won't even though technically maybe they should): https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-top-secret-parnasa-plan/comment/17866390 and comments there after...
Love the fake gedolim comment:)
I think the concerns are founded and legitimate. To me this is the issue: Natan, I imagine that you have a grand plan. And that plan is to change the chareidim (which I really think if done right can really help). But how do you propose to change the chareidim? Any answers you can possibly provide will limit their adherence to the Torah. If you propose a secular education, or going to work, or going to the army etc., that comes at the expense of the other important things they are doing. Now, for YOU, this is no big deal, because in your rationalist world view these other matters take first or equal place. (Which is why liberals are always so liberal; they don't care for, or deny the cause that the conservatives are trying to conserve.)
But to the chareidi - whose views have tremendous backing in many Jewish sources - these issues, even if they are real and important, take only second place to the primary service of trying to be closer to Hashem. From such a perspective, the only way to change things is to work from within. Acknowledge that Torah is the most important thing, and that we are here primarily to follow the Torah's laws - that is unequivocally the Jewish mission - not to save an economy. But of course, we have to live in this world and we must do our hishtadlus. That's why we eat and why we try to be healthy because we need to live in this world - in order to continue doing our very avodas Hashem. And if the world, or in this case, the state collapses, a lot less Torah will be learned and a lot less avodas Hashem will take place.
I agree that there is too much the other way in Israel and a balance is necessary. In America there is more of an appropriate balance. We have secular educations (although unfortunately they are not all taken so seriously) and it is more acceptable to go to work, while at the same time it is very highly encouraged to try to stay in learning, and that going to work is 2nd best, which is enough of a push for the best of the ovdei Hashem usually stick to learning, while the others go to work eventually.
In Israel things are more extreme. That is a problem.
But, like in any conservative culture, any kind of major reformation is frowned upon because reforms usually hurt the primary cause more than they help the lower cause. Whatever reforms you suggest will have a detrimental affect on the avodas Hashem , no doubt.
This is the issue with politics. Liberals, usually those who disregard the importance of the conservative mindset, are more than happy to change and reform, because the eggs they break along the way are not at all important. But the conservatives, because of their higher ideals, are allergic to reforms because reforms always damage the ideals they trying to hard to conserve.
So what do we do? I'm not sure the answer is quite so simple.
I guess we educate the liberals that our ideals are actually very important. And we educate the conservatives that there needs to be some reform in these matters.
Both are equally impossible.
Dovid, you raise a very important point about the nature of conservatives trying to conserve something.
In this case however, the error is that the israeli chareidim are not actually trying to conserve “adherence to Torah” they are trying to conserve a Chareidi lifestyle that in itself is a very new development. (Which might or might not be a little oxymoronic if referred to as being conservative)
Thus when you write, “Any answers you can possibly provide will limit their adherence to the Torah. If you propose a secular education, or going to work, or going to the army etc., that comes at the expense of the other important things they are doing.”
That second sentence is accurate, but the first sentence is in error. More specifically: education, work, army may come at expense of things that are important to a Chareidi lifestyle, but at the same time education, work, army are actually critical to adhering to Torah and do Not in any way detract from it.
You mentioned yourself how Rambam worked; Rashi worked; Chazal (mostly) worked. Working is part of Torah…. Even before we are commanded to keep Shabbat, the Torah says six days a week we are to work.
You astutely note: “Acknowledge that Torah is the most important thing, and that we are here primarily to follow the Torah's laws - that is unequivocally the Jewish mission”
Absolutely, but it is the Israeli chareidi definition of what Torah requires which is in error. Yes, the Israeli Chareidim are conservative, but it is neither Torah nor Torah values that they are seeking to conserve.
By the way, I am NOT saying that “conserving such a Chareidi lifestyle is not important, or at least not important to those who live it and also not important to be respected by those who do not live it.” (After all, Israeli chareidim were also created in the image of G-D, just like those who want to follow Torah, so we should respect their lifestyle choices)
Just that we shouldn’t confuse or conflate the Israeli Chareidi lifestyle with what the Torah requires, because they are not the same.
Shabbat shalom
Thanks for your thoughtful response, but perhaps it isn't clear to you what I am referring to when I talk of "avodas Hashem," what the *conservative* chareidim are trying to preserve. My opinion here in the comment section is primarily in line with DNS: to promote the Maimonedies legacy of Judaism. When I talk about avodas Hashem, I don't mean just doing mitzvos and learning Torah. I mean the Rambam's version of the Jewish mission: connecting to HKBH. Our job as Yisroel is: on a personal level - to bring God into our cold, Godless lives; and to the world at large, by representing Him and bringing Him and His ideas to this cold, Godless world. This happens through thinking about God and His laws, i.e., learning and following the Torah.
Yes, the Rambam went to work, but bitterly (emphasis added) complained about how it affected his lifelong mission. He wished he could just sit in the desert and focus on Hashem's Torah and avoda all day without bodily, worldly interruption. In no way did he shirk his responsibilities because of this, nor would he tell anyone to - we live in a body and have to take care of ourselves, but by all standards, primary avodas Hashem is the consistent, uninterrupted love of Hashem and complete focus on that (בכל לבבכם ובכל נפשכם). That is Judaism 101, especially Maimonides Judaism 101.
The question is, today, what is the best (and arguably the only) way to enable this true avodas Hashem. 1) we are much 'shvacher' than the Rambam, who himself had trouble juggling. 2) the workforce today requires a lot more time than the Rambam's 'baal habos' who would still learn 8 hours a day. (I would have almost the highest respect for someone who worked and still learned Torah well for 5-6 uninterrupted hours! Do we find anyone who can do that today?) 3) the workforce is antithetical to torah, and I don't mean values, I mean just in the chumrius of it all - back then there was a more 'ruchniyusdike' climate in the world (by golly, Greek philosophy was still popular back then!). 4) the workforce in antithetical to torah, and now I mean in values.
The chareidim feel that the only way to properly serve Hashem is to promote the kollel lifestyle. Are they even wrong? Do we know anyone that goes to work and still makes his Torah the *ikkar*? It is very, very rare, and surely unsustainable for a public that is striving to make Hashem their absolute center.
I don't know what the answer is. If the system is unsustainable from a scientific perspective, if the system is being abused, if people are asking for too many handouts, these are not issues that should be taken lightly. But for the most part, it is the people who already don't agree with our mission statement that are the ones who are so worried because the mission doesn't matter anyways; might as well tear it down. Are the issues they raise valid? Probably, but even more so the the issues with changing the system. This is the conservative-liberal balance. Far from me to have answers. Possibly far from anybody, in which case perhaps we should just let Hashem run His world and we busy ourselves with the plan He laid out for us, following the Torah and being worried (חרד) about that.
Now, if I am misrepresenting the Rambam or authentic Judaism, that is a different story entirely, and I'm happy to have that discussion, but if I am correct, the issue just isn't so simple.
Thanks again, I hope to hear back. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Meanwhile, good Shabbos to you!
I don’t agree that the Rambam really wanted to sit in a desert all day every day.
Sure he said every Chasid should strive to separate and be alone and only interact with others when absolutely necessary. But the things he suggested should be avoided included eating, drinking, washing, spending time with his wife and his own young children. (Moreh ch.51).
But, clearly none of that is practical. I view the “bitter complaints” as you describe them) expressed by by the Rambam to be similar to those expressed by Oskar Schindler at the very poignant scene at the end of Schindler’s list. He too bitterly complains that he didn’t do enough. That he didn’t save enough lives. He points to his car and says it could have bought ten more; he pulls out his his swastika pin and says its gold could have bought another life. He his full of regrets after doing so much good. And of course those specific examples are ludicrous - how could he have run his camp without a car? How could he have fit in with the Nazi elite without his pin?
It’s the same with the Rambam in the Moreh; he had spent his days creating and defending monumental works of Torah. And then, as he’s nearing the final decade of his life, he looks back and says if I didn’t marry, I didn’t have kids, if I didn’t eat or drink or work, if I didn’t travel to Egypt, if I didn’t waste time doing any of these things, then I could have done more.
Is he right? Was (Steven Speilberg’s/ Liam Neeson’s portrayal of) Oskar Schindler? He’s full of regrets looking back on such good he did. Maybe that’s how we should want to feel nearing the end and looking back. But prospectively looking forward, we need to eat, love, have children, work, it is what G-D wants of us and it is all part of being Holech b’Drachav as well as appreciating the world G-D chose to put us in. Compare to hilchot De’ot 3:1. It is a derech Ra’ah and assur to abstain from the world and one who does so is a Choteh.
I don't think that is what the Rambam meant at all! Nice analogy from Schindler and beautiful sentiment, but the Rambam, IMO, wasn't expressing a regretful attitude at all. The Rambam's point was that the more one is single minded to his avodas Hashem, the more the עולם השכל opens up to him, and since כפי ההשגה כך האהבה (Rambam ibid., Kapah translation), any time one has to be involved in this world, he is automatically disconnecting from Hashem, as he describes in perek 51 ibid. at great length, as well in the hakdama. As if to say that this world is a b'dieved entirely, but that is exactly our avoda, to live here and reach for the stars, but the more we can not live 'here,' the better. As practical as he was, and as much as a realist as he was, his love for his Creator was such that he just couldn't get enough of Him, which only happens with tremendous רציפות, any interruption and we're back to where we started. The Rambam was not saying to abstain completely, but he was very pro extreme forms of abstinence as higher levels are reached. His son Reb Avraham, a perfect disciple of his father, in the HaMaspik, devotes many pages to this end.
So yes, we have to do what we have to do, but Hashem is to always be on our minds, and we should constantly be running to try and connect. If the world makes it crazy and we just can't get there, we have to devise ways of keeping our mission alive. Hence the kollelim.
And by the way, this is only the Rambam's opinion, the Kuzari was a whole lot more moderate when it comes to this, as was the Nefesh haChaim. To the Rambam, this was Judaism, as wisdom was to the philosophers. The mekubalim were more into Maaseh, while this whole area was a bonus, meant for the cream of the crop (which in that case, the kollel initiative is still necessary, both for real maaseh and to create that cream).
Very well presented, and I think most Chareidi people in the US think this way, and a silent big fraction (I won't say majority) in Israel as well. I do think that things can start slowly with a few people and eventually taking root. This can especially happen when there are larger numbers and more fall-outs of the system.
Lakewood for example changed drastically, as 25 years ago you couldn't get your kid into school if you worked, and today the vast majority of people over 30 are in the business world.
20 years ago almost no girls went to college, and today most girls from Yeshivish family's go for a degree right out of seminary. This has slowly started in Israel too, albeit with much resistance, but I am sure there will be progress over the next 20 years.
Things may take time but we'll catch up eventually, and If done in a healthy way stating from within, maybe Chareidi values won't be compromised as much.
Tx.
I'm not so optimistic from a realist standpoint though. America was never as extreme as Israel; there was always a major acceptable balabatish community, even if not in Lakewood, and that community has moved over and become one with Lakewood. From what I understand about Israel and the leadership there, they aren't moving anywhere to fast. And the outside world is waaaay more dangerous today, especially for someone sheltered, so I imagine there'll only be stronger resistance. But we'll see.
And to be clear, I'm pro the Chareidi system even in Israel in general, I just feel like there is less personal guidance for the individual and that person who in America would talk to his Rebbi and go to work ends up languishing in (an irresponsible) no-man's land for no reason, nebach, beause that's what is done.
When the Jewish people are in charge of their lives,as when they have a state, they have responsibility for all parts of life. We can't and won't depend on the goyim. Then all aspects of life have a holy aspect in that the Torah in Israel is fulfilled by a functioning society for the benefit of the people. The Chazon Ish expressed this idea in relation to the Mitzvah of Yishiv Haatetz. Therefore even the delivery boy in some sense is fulfilling this Mitzvah. So talk of not being involved in matters not connected to learning Torah is not fulfilling the Torah as well as not being realistic.
Of course its not, I agree with you.
But (a) since the chareidi system is set up like that, like it or not, being liberal and changing the system will have negative repercussions and will be difficult to implement. Should they do like we do in America and get an education when they're young? If not doing that leads to tremendous life issues when they get older, probably, unless they are learning seriously then already (most kids are not). But since implementation of such a thing in the current climate will lead to other problems, conservatives are wary of changing a system, even a flawed one, lest the new system will have bigger flaws, which isn't at all unfounded. Therefore, we are an unfortunate impasse.
And (b) nowadays it really is hard to learn and reach a deep connection with Hashem while being busy with other things. None other than the Rambam himself had trouble with lifelong mission of getting close to Hashem due to his numerous other responsibilities (which he sort of complains about at the end of Moreh ;), though he of course did not shirk them in any way. All the more so, אנחנו יתמי דיתמי have trouble with our mission while needing to be involved with other things. I really do understand the point of a Kollel lifestyle for this reason. Again this doesn't mean people shouldn't be responsible, but no question that alternative will lead to less closeness to Hashem. I guess the point is that I don't condone the individuals but I do understand *well* where the movement is coming from (to preserve authentic Judaism) and being liberal with such lofty ideals is really not at all simple.
"I agree that there is too much the other way in Israel and a balance is necessary."
And the reactions to such sentiments of moderation shall be swift and furious.
"In Israel things are more extreme. That is a problem."
I guess you must be the old "traditional" type of Charedi. Not one of those post-Begin type.
"And the reactions to such sentiments of moderation shall be swift and furious."
Agreed:( And the reaction to educating the liberals in the importance of תורה ועבודה will be equally swift and furious. I really think it is a lost cause, and Hashem should protect us all.
Even in Israel there are limits to imposing the will of the majority on the minority. Non Chareidim on non- Chareidim and vice versa..
Many laws have been passed In Israel (in America, too) with the barest of one-vote margin majorities. The Oslo accords, easily the biggest disaster in Israel history' was pushed through by Rabin on a 61 seat majority.
Non- Chareidim on Chareidim and vice versa.(correction to above)
true, but what do you suggest? An all out war and whoever wins wins? First of all, the chareidim have large numbers so they probably won't lose. There are enough askanim that are connected and know how to lobby. I just don't see that happening. Second, at this point there are just two camps and we need the chareidim to be serving Hashem at their max, and we also need the army and economy to run. If the chareidim actually do lose their funding completely, besides that they will not take that sitting down and who knows what kind of repercussions that will have, but also, we need their avodas Hashem! We wish they could do it differently, but right now they just can't.
I'm just pointing out that after all of Natan's complaints, what does he actually propose? Other than abolishing a system he doesn't like anyways. I'd love for him to spell out his alternative...
I don't have time to respond to all the comments, but this question can be answered in two words: Reduce funding.
The Haredim do not need to be changed. All that has to happen is for the Likud (or at least a part of it) and non-Haredi RW parties to stop with the handouts. If the government would ever stop giving free education, free healthcare, child payments, kollel stipends and free daycare to people who choose not to work, the Haredim will be begging to teach English and Math in their schools and flood the IDF recruitment offices.
Well said, but it's a democracy and the chareidim are not pining for your plan. I don't see how we could practically change the government without changing them...
"By the sweat of your brow shall you get your bread." A single brow can only sweat so much. If the economy craters nobody can afford to study Torah.
Lol, agreed. That's what I wrote, "And if the world, or in this case, the state collapses, a lot less Torah will be learned and a lot less avodas Hashem will take place."
The deeper problem, I think, is that haredi leadership (Litvishe leadership in particular) has long been incapable of providing solutions to ANYTHING, even the things that they have thought about and even things far less complex than those of educational policy.
Example: Digital water meters.
Mekorot let people know they'd be switching to digital water meters.
Litvishe haredi leadership said the meters could not be used on Shabbos.
Solution given?
None.
A haredi publication published a detailed article by (as I recall) a member of Rav Vozner's Beis Din, arguing that use of the meters on Shabbos was perfectly fine, even according to Chazon Ish.
Haredi leadership denounced the article and said that one must expel the article from one's home.
Badatz meanwhile met with an engineer and came up with a less problematic design, which Mekorot agreed to.
Bnei Brak leadership announced that this design as well was unacceptable.
And what solutions did they come up with, given that Mekorot wasn't asking their permission regarding water meters and would be installing them no matter what?
None.
No solution at all, as far as I know.
Yes, a solution was ultimately found.
But the initiative for finding one did not, as far as I know, come from Bnei Brak leadership.
Here's a link to the broadside against the Bnei Brak posek who dared to deal with the issue and write a comprehensive analysis that shows the design to be OK (see page 2 for the declaration by one of those leaders): http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/10/blog-post.html
It's really not correct to fault the Haredim for this. Ultimately the Haredim have just been taking what's been given to them. The reason they don't serve in the IDF or contribute in a meaningful way to the tax base has nothing to do with "Torah protecting" or because "frum people have always only studied Torah all day long and not worked since the time of Moshe Rabeinu". The reason these things are as they are is because since Menachem Begin's time they have been given gifts for their political support in the governing coalitions. (Up until 1977 for example there were only 400 total IDF exemptions for Torah learning for the entire country.) For the last 40 years since Likud has more or less ruled the country this has been the policy. If the rest of the country doesn't want to fall into economic and security oblivion, it's probably time for everyone else to ask themselves if these handouts (like free childcare, free education, free healthcare, arnona discounts, kollel stipends, etc.) should continue going to people who choose not to work. The Left has been asking this question for a little while now. The hope is that the Center will also start asking this question.
Yes, and it's fascinating how the hashkafic justifications are retroactively applied.
The lesson here is simple: when someone is used to getting something for free, they will raise holy hell when you try to take it away from them. That's how welfare benefits turn into "entitlements".
(By the way, even the Chazon Ish never said that most chareidi men should sit and learn all day and not work!)
There are plenty of urgent places to put government money, old age Bituach Leumi, help to Holocaust survivors, hospitals, doctors, nurses, education,teachers etc.. Learning Torah ? Of course! But it won't happen if Chareidim continue with no Army service and massive Kollel.
The government doesn't have any money of it's own, only what it forcefully takes from it's citizens. Redistributing stolen resources to Holocaust survivors, doctors and teachers is not in any way, shape, or form, morally superior than to give them to Charedim. In fact, once the looting is legal the ones with the most political clout will use their pull to dish out the plunder to their own supporters. Instead of condoning the theft and then condemning recipients, condemn the theft altogether.
What are you talking about? The legitimately elected government performs it's legal duties as prescribed by law. There is no theft because it collects taxes by law. The money serves the needs of the people. The people need basic services.Of course it is because it serves the public. The Chareidim are not the whole public. The government's first responsibility is to the general public. Private interests are taken care of by individuals,corporations etc..
We're not for socialism.The government is not for taking care of all the personal needs of Chareidim as you imply.
Government taking from one citizen and giving it to another is theft. If it is legal that just makes it legal theft. The roll of government is to protect our natural right to life, liberty and property by creating law and order. They have no right to provide healthcare, education or elderly support. Holocaust survivor support, medical bills and education are personal interests, they should be taken care of in the marketplace. Like Charedim, the whole public does not consist of Holocaust survivors or people in need of [or at least equal amounts of] medical attention. Should a citizen with no children pay for the education of a family with 5 children in school? Once you legitimize one private interest by sending your henchmen in government to force another to pay for it, then you legitimize plunder. If you are for this, than you are for socialism. This is why the country is so divisive, because we are each fighting to use the scarce confiscated booty for our own personal interests.
natural right ? Landed rights naturally are the property of all.
Natural law is strength rules weakness.
Natural isn't synonymous with good. Flu and cancer and heart disease are natural. Cruelty is natural.
Socialism isnt worse than the the present concentration of capital in the hands of 1 tenth of a percent . If you're businesses rely on roads ports railways built and subsidized by generations of taxes , and technology fumded by taxpayers over generations ( over 80% of the tech in an iphone was made by the army) taxation for public good is right and just . Healthcare should be universal as should education and an unqualified universal basic income. The problem is implementation not morality or justice.
YidPoshut
Judaism respects private property and protects it. But we believe in charity which is צדקה, righteousness,hense the welfare state, a safety net. But not for every private interest unless it serves and is valued by the general public.Therefore medical care, hospitals, schools etc. the welfare state with limits.
"Tzedaka", is when you reach into your own pocket in order to help another. Forcing somebody else to take out of his pocket [even for a righteous cause] is called "gezel."
That is the moral argument. The practical argument is that a private charity will provide the needed service better and at a much lower cost than an office of government bureaucrats.
I love your Bureaucropoly game (really, I do, I even just sent you a "like") but seriously, in a game. Not in real life. This topic has been debated ad nauseam, you can try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z37TcI-AxB0 or any number of books or videos about this...
"The problem is so blindingly obvious that even Jonathan Rosenblum dedicated a column to it in Mishpacha magazine several years ago..."
He did, did he? Let's check that.
Your embedded link, which is made to appear as though a click on it will take us to the alleged column, actually doesn't take us there. Instead, it takes us to another NS column, from 2015. Eight years ago is not quite "several years ago", but more importantly, citing your own column doesn't constitute evidence of anything. Shall we continue?
That 2015 columns contains a similar claim: "Recently I highlighted Jonathan Rosenblum's article in Mishpacha Magazine calling for wholesale reform in the Charedi way of life vis-a-vis Torah study." Another hyperlink, and this time for sure we thought it would take us to the alleged article. Nope. Here again, it just takes us to yet another NS article, this time from even earlier, 2014. We are now three NS columns deep into the JR claims, still no proof of anything. Again, shall we continue?
The 2014 article contains no link at all. Thus, after following the trail, we ultimately come up with...nothing. No link to any article where Rosenblum allegedly calls for "wholesale reform" of the Charedi way of life, for everything. Not even a sustained block quote. (By contrast, the 2014 article also claims, as a separate aside, that Rosenblum "on previous occasions, has likened the kolel system to toxic chemotherapy", and this time does provide a link, to a 2008 article. You can see for yourself if the claim is accurate, and so as not to confuse topics, I'll say nothing about that here.) A lot of links, designed to give the veneer of transparency and authenticity, all of which add up to nothing.
In short, as has been shown time and again and again, you cannot trust anything you see in an NS column.
What a bizarre comment. Yes, you have to click through a few links, but after you do so you will find the actual original articles in each case.
I had to click a whole two times instead of once. What a ripoff. https://cross-currents.com/2015/01/14/we-owe-an-answer/
Ripoff, eh? That is NOT the article NS claimed to be paraphrasing. Please read more carefully. He writes " Recently I highlighted JR's article in Mishpacha....However, in that article he did not detail the reason for such reform. In his latest extraordinary column, he spells it out." Those are two different references, and there are hyperlinks in each sentence. The SECOND one leads to the article you cite. But the FIRST, which is the one I was addressing, leads to nothing but another NS article. No, NS, we *never* get to the original article, because you never wanted to show your readers how badly you misrepresented it.
You do know that Mishpacha is not an all-online publication so that linking is generally not possible? This post has an extensive excerpt: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rosenblum-calls-for-reform. But you are right; R Slifkin should have offered to send a back issue to every reader. What a ripoff.
You obviously do not know that Jonathan Rosenbloom posts all his content at his own web site. Including Mishpacha articles. But you are obviously retarded. so this is expected.
https://www.jewishmediaresources.com/
Slifkin is perfectly capable of linking directly to the articles in question but won't. Rather, he forces readers to click through multiple RJ articles before...crickets. Therefore, clickbait. Perhaps even non-existent.
You are right, I didn't know that. So this is your big chance to show that R Slifkin misquoted Rosenblum when he reproduced the text of his Mishpacha article instead of linking to it (whereas he linked to his articles in cross-currents in his other posts). To save you time here it is: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rosenblum-calls-for-reform. Let me know when you are done.
Your role as Natan's secretarial assistance is self-designated. Get back to me when he makes it official.
The classy thing would be just to admit you made a mistake. But no. Like all lefties, you just double down.
If the actual article not online, then don't put in a hyperlink that doesn't actually take you there. It's the equivalent of a misrepresented citation. Or find a different outlet to cite, as NS did with Cross Currents. Or if there's nothing at all, then take the time to cite his actual words, in a sustained block quote, so we can see that it's been portrayed accurately. And at the very least, when you know you've offered a false portrayal, don't double down, like you did, and keep citing to it again and again and again.
Jonathan Rosenblum's Mishpacha piece from Dec. 12, 2014, "Change in Order to Preserve", can be found here, on a site run by Rosenblum: https://www.jewishmediaresources.com/1730/vayeishev-5775
(Note that this page has 2 of his pieces on it, so one needs to scroll past the first one in order to reach this one).
"The classy thing would be just to admit you made a mistake." Yes it would be. But I'm not holding my breath.
"Or if there's nothing at all, then take the time to cite his actual words, in a sustained block quote". Ummm... Did you follow the link I posted. Here it is, again. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rosenblum-calls-for-reform
OK. You are obviously not capable of following what I already said three times - that he provided a link to one article, but repeatedly hid the link to the article he keeps falsely paraphrasing - so I'm not going to say it again. Just do us all a favor, and next time your knee jerks to defend NS, take the time to either read the criticism more carefully, or if you don't understand, ask someone. I'll waste no more time on this topic.
I'm reading the Alter of Novardock's essay on bitachon. So I can guess at the Gedolim's plan. He says the Torah commands true bitachon: don't worry about stuff like this, trust God to take care of it, and the more you trust God, the more God will take care of it. And trying to do anything about it on your own shows lack of bitachon.
So the probable plan is do nothing ourselves and let God take care of it.
Then why vote for יהדות התורה?
So Yaacov did not have proper Bitachon when he prepared to meet Eesav in battle.Money falls from trees. The Jews in the Desert didn't have to prepare for battle.
This doesn't negate your point but first of all, remember what they were defending. Yaakov was working to create God's people and that was the driving force of every single thing he did in his entire life. When he was preparing for battle, it was against an enemy of God, Eisav, and was purely avodas Hashem. The Jews in the dessert were the am Hashem and when they fought battles it was against those who were against Hashem, the ovdei avoda zara. Hishtadlus in that context is very different than the one described here. Again, this doesn't negate our need for hishtadlus, but it's not fair to bring them in here. If the Israeli army was defending the am Hashem, they would be doing God's work as well. But they are not; they are protecting a secular nation, not God's.
"If the Israeli army was defending the am Hashem, they would be doing God's work as well. But they are not; they are protecting a secular nation, not God's. "
You're being very silly. First of all, the Israeli army is not defending anyone. They are not even doing hishtadlut. They are engaged in a מלחמת מצוה. As such they are doing God's work. And Israel is not a secular nation, despite what you and some secularists believe. And עם ישראל is God's nation.
Nothing you've written here is correct.
Honestly, I don't think that HGL actually puts any thought into what he writes. He just spouts whatever pops into his head. (That's probably also why he's too afraid to use his real name. Doesn't want the accountability.)
Apparently, as we see from the example of yourself, using your real name is no guarantee of being held accountable!
You can get away with spewing nonsense all day long, like "Relationship with Hashem is just fluffy spirituality" or "Torah doesn't practically protect because there are attacks on shuls" or "Tosafos thought centipedes had asymmetric legs because Aristotle though men have more teeth", and none of your cronies hold you accountable!
Ok. That's it. I don't care if you insult me, but I've had enough of you distorting what I say, and not even putting your name to it. Banned.
Um, he was responding to דוד, not HGL.
Can't you follow a thread?
I'm not HGL, I am דוד™️. I have a diferent perspective than Happy - see https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-top-secret-parnasa-plan/comment/17866390
Natan, if you don't get what I'm saying, that's on you. My point here was a simple one, if you disagree, please highlight where you disagree:
1. What is Yirsoel? Those who learn, follow and promote Hashem and His Torah. Do you agree with that?
2. For Yisroel, everything we do is supposed to be to get closer and bring the world closer to Hashem. Do you disagree?
3. Yaakov Avinu's every move, thought and action was למען שמו יתברך באהבה, as the Rambam describes beautifully in the מורה. Do you disagree?
4. Hishtadlus, from a Jewish perspective, is just another form of עבודת השם. We eat in order to sustain our bodies in order to be able to continue functioning and serving Hashem. We may not all be quite so lofty, but that is the Yiddishe hashkafa. Do you disagree?
5. If someone is against עבודת השם, and despises those who spend their days learning השם's Torah, and doesn't think that's what life is about, is he living Hashem's life?
6. This does not mean that we shouldn't be doing hishtadlus - it may very well be that at the current rate the economy will collapse and if so, much less Torah will be learned. Just like we need to individually eat to survive, again *in order to continue our עבודת השם*, we need to live in a stable, sustainable way as a whole. So from a Torah perspective we may need to figure things out.
7. But in the current Israeli climate, עבודת השם seems to be very absent from the mindsets of the chiloni population - to an extreme, do you disagree?
And the chareidim are, perhaps subconsciously, countering that by going extreme the other way.
How do you propose we fix the situation without hurting the higher cause of עבודת השם? (Again, see my comment below.)
"And the chareidim are, perhaps subconsciously, countering that by going extreme the other way."
How many charedim are 'going extreme the other way'? How exactly do they 'go extreme the other way'? The gur on gur violence? The trash burning? The stone throwing? The four page spread on private swimming pools in last week's binoh? The minyan factories? Those blogging on the internet in contravention of da'as torah? The long glamorous sheitels, again in contravention of da'as torah? The disregard of health and safety (summer vacation is nearly upon us, let us daven there are no drownings or near drownings, lost on mountains or nearly lost on mountains this year)? The COVID rule breaking? The slumlords? The failure to deal with sexual molesters? The nepotism, corruption, protekzia, lack of holding leaders to account, lack of transparency etc etc.
Did anybody read 'The Emperor's new clothes' to you when you were a kid? It describes chareidi society very well. The advisors (mashgichim of yeshivos, the 'heimish press' etc) all proclaim how amazing charedi society is, but when one peeks below the service.......
And what is מלחמת מצוה? Isn't that hishtadlus? מלחמה against and for whom? To promote עבודת השם? If so, I retract. Show me how...
What I mean by God's nation is followers of the Torah. If their intent was to promote Torah learning and following the Torah, that would be commendable (some of them do feel that way), but I doubt they would have such animosity towards the ones actually learning Torah if that was their mission...
"And what is מלחמת מצוה? Isn't that hishtadlus? "
Not necessarily. The simple הלכה that all are obligated to fight in a מלמחת מצוה indicates that the rules of such a war need not follow the normal exertions dictated by nature.
I question your assertion of it being a מלחמת מצוה altogether - what do you think makes it such? The only reason it would be is because we fight to preserve or expand כלל ישראל who are the people of Hashem, because they follow His Torah, nothing else. We stand for Him and that's the only reason why we even matter. Preserving us, if it is in fact מלחמת מצוה, is God's service only for that reason.
Israel is God's nation and Noone could change that.
ישראל אף על פי שחטא ישראל הוא
True, but is that related to this conversation?
Its seems that the only way things will change in the chareidi sector is when it actually gets to a point of economic non feasibility. Up until that point things are not likely to change
But sadly that point will likely be after the collapse of Israel
Correct or the government will change
and defunding the Chareidim will begin.p
Pray harder. More restrictions on women in the name of "modesty". More aggressive fundraising. More government money.
The country cannot be sustained by Israelis 'supporting' the Haredim? The state of Israel is THE biggest shnorrer in the history of mankind! Yes without the mega dollars from American donors there would be no airforce- no tanks, no roads and no hospitals in Israel- indeed no Israel! Every wall in every israeli hospital is plastered with plaques declaring the foreign donors who built it! And much of the support from U.S. taxpayers money is from the millions of americans who appreciate the Jews who keep the Torah......
The Chareidi Printing Threat to the Economy
The chareidi community's dangerously out of control demand for flyers, stickers and signs must be stopped before it bankrupts the Israeli economy. Hundreds of thousands of printed solicitations for various events, causes and news items flood Israeli streets daily, monopolizing public space in an indiscriminate, uncivilized manner.
According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, over 300 million pieces of paper are used for chareidi stickers and flyers annually, costing over 150 million shekels in printing costs alone. This figure does not include the tens of millions spent each year on raw materials for metal signs, plastic stickers and adhesive paper. The social cost in terms of shortage of raw materials, pollution and visual blight is incalculable.
The community attempts to justify this by quotingTalmudic statements about the importance of publicizing mitzvos and good deeds (Ketubot 105a). However they conveniently ignore the Talmud's accompanying statements about not being overly ostentatious. Jonathan Haidt's research suggests groups high in cohesion tend to exaggerate displays of within-group trust and sacrifice as a means of group identity. The constant printing may serve more as a flag-waving exercises in chareidi separatism than a true religious obligation.
The chareidim claim they deserve state support due to the social benefits of large families and Torah study. Yet as long as they continue to squander massive amounts of resources on overprinting, at taxpayer expense, they have no credible claim for more funding. Israeli taxpayers have a right to demand fiscal responsibility before giving further handouts. The chareidi printing crisis must be tackled with strict regulation of signage if Israel hopes to avoid a financial meltdown.
This is why we need females in the IDF lol!!!!!!!
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/373492
After your first paragraph I was sure this was going to be an article about African Americans in the US.
What's up with all the racism in the comments section? I guess this is one sin of Orthodoxy that is not confined to Charedim.
I would like to know the source/origin of the 'well Rabbi X is smarter than everyone and if he does/says so than we'll rely on him'. I don't see such a thing in the Geonim or Rishonim. I believe that phenomenon is different than Daas Torah but is also complimentary to it.
Source ? Rabbi X said so....