I think it is obvious to all that the BASELESS ban on HGL is because NS realizes he has no good (or even not so good) responses to his Happy's criticisms and the only way to shut him up is to ban him. Why don
Constant economic propping up of Chareidi society will cause diversion of essential funds for essential public services for the Chareidim. So the state doesn't collapse and the Chareidim starve it still causes damage to the general public and unfairly shifts the tax burden to rest or the general public. WHY? אם לא עכשיו אימתי?!.
There is a certain very pessimistic idea out there that Israeli chareidim, who are generally poor and rely on government support, will eventually cause the economic collapse of the entire country. This is because, as the idea goes, as they increase in proportion to the rest of the “productive” population, their subsidies will eventually consume all the money in the country. As one of these sad and gloomy prophets declares:
On a societal level, it’s even worse. By the time the charedi leadership accepts that they have to change their way of lie, it will be too late. First, because this realization will only happen when they are either incapable of using their political strength to extract money from the rest of the country, or when there is nothing left to extract. The former may well not happen before the latter. Secular Israelis are not going to hang around while a government that needs charedi support is continually raising taxes from non-charedim in order to support the growing charedi population.
Second, even if the charedi leadership eventually does accept that change is necessary, it’s not something that can happen overnight. After convincing people for decades that secular education is treif and work is to be avoided, you can’t suddenly convince them otherwise. And even when you do convince them, it will only help them change things for the next generation. There is a lag of thirty years, after the money has run out.
The author of this piece obviously has no comprehension of the basics of finance and economics. Forget about GDP growth rates, duration, convexity, supply and demand, opportunity cost, PV, APV, put-call parity, elasticity, etc.- he doesn’t even understand simple arithmetic. There are a whole bunch of strawmen and simple fallacies in the two paragraphs I quoted, but the most striking ones are that the author imagines
The money runs out suddenly rather than gradually, in a way that people perceive. This is obviously an extremely childish way to think, and doesn’t happen in the real world. UNLESS…somebody (=the government) deliberately cuts it off suddenly- which is extraordinarily unlikely, and even if it happened, would mainly affect the chareidim, and the fears of general economic collapse due to this are baseless.
As chareidim increase in proportion to the rest of society and and the subsidies dry up, they won’t change their behavior in response to their changing circumstances. This is akin to thinking that because the home healthcare market is growing very quickly, and continues attracting workers to the industry at a swift rate, it will continue to grow until it is too late and consumes 100% of the economy and absolutely everybody is working in home healthcare and we all starve. In other words, insane and/or infantile. Chareidim will adapt to external circumstances, just like any other society in flux, and just like they have done in many other respects to survive (but not necessarily in the way secularists would like). The 30 years figure he gives for societal change (AFTER the money “runs out” 😂- see #1) is complete nonsense he pulled from his hat on the fly, absolutely disconnected from the real world.
The actual experts, when they are not coming from an ideologically anti-chareidi/religious perspective, such as the past governor of the Bank of Israel, do not maintain such foolish worries, but rather the legitimate concern (from a secular economic point of view) that as the chareidi portion of the population grows, with its inferior job skills, GDP growth will slow- to the level of Japan. None of this apocalyptic gobbledygook that I mentioned before. Is she right? Who knows. As somebody wise once said: “God created economists to make astrologers look good”. It is true that chareidim are not as interested in secular knowledge as their secularist counterparts, for good reasons, and that is not likely to change completely. They will probably advance a different sort of economy than the one that presently exists. This is a development that as Torah Jews, we should welcome. There is a book called “כשהחרדים יהיו רוב” which discusses this wonderful prospect, and arrives at a similar conclusion. May we all merit to see this future, and the coming of משיח צדקינו, אמן.
The Looming Economics Disaster of Chareidi Hap-Hapnomics
The chareidi insistence on living off of "happy money" - money that falls from the sky with no work required - has put the entire Israeli economy in peril. As their numbers continue to swell unimpeded, this unsustainable lifestyle will eventually bring Israel to financial ruin.
According to the latest figures, over 50% of chareidi households in Israel receive full government support, with the men not working and instead spending their days learning Torah. (Ynet, 2019). The average chareidi family receives over $1,500 per month in subsidies for things basic things such as food, child allowances, mortgage assistance, and more (CBS, 2019). This amounts to over $8 billion per year in government spending on chareidim, a number that grows by double digits each year.
But the ideology of "hap-hapnomics", the idea that trusting in divine blessing will provide all material needs, has been debunked by economists and atheists alike. Richard Dawkins explained that "to rely on divine INTENTION rather than economic FUNCTION is to court disaster" (The Blind Watchmaker, 1986). Jonathan Haidt's research has shown that moral cultures built around purity and authority, rather than liberty and care, do not produce sustainable and innovative economies (The Righteous Mind, 2012).
Yet the chareidi rabbis insist on absurd passages like "one who increases his participation in Torah study, G-d will increase his sustenance" (Avodas Yisrael). They take this woefully out of context, ignoring the time and place these ideas emerged. But modern economies do not function this way. Work, productivity, innovation and saving drive growth - not blind faith in divine "happiness economics."
If the chareidim do not wake up and abandon their shortsighted ideologies in favor of work and contribution, the entire Israeli economy will soon come crashing down under the unsustainable weight of chareidi hap-hapnomics. Reality demands a rational approach, not a "fluffy" faith in divine handouts. The future of Israel depends on it.
Yet the chareidi rabbis insist on absurd passages like "one who increases his participation in Torah study, G-d will increase his sustenance"
See RCK in his DE. I'll post it later when I have the time. Right now, I'll simply state that the classic Torah sources tell us that such sustenance does not involve being a burden on the community. As such the passage is not absurd, but has been misused and abused.
Covid, Meron, Walder, the internet, you've repeatedly made wild assertions about the imminent collapse of charedi society. Why on earth would anyone take your current prognostications seriously? It's not as though you have a track record which inspires any sort of confidence.
You primitive simpleton - how dare you minimize threats with idiotic comparisons?!
The Rishonim taught following evidence, not dogma. You prefer fossilized superstition, cocooning yourselves in ignorance to preserve wealth and power.
Climate data, demographic trends rest on millennia of evidence - not "Star Wars"! Your poisoned, medieval mind lacks reason to distinguish them. The rationalist Rishonim would vomit at your apologetics obscuring reality to preserve privilege.
Your "Torah" obscurantism justifies a system producing extremism and poverty, benefitting parasites like you. You distort Torah into a barrier against rational inquiry and innovation.
As Hitchens wrote, religion poisons everything by cloaking bigotry in piety. Your dismissal poisons truth-seeking to preserve your cult. The rationalistic Torah demands far better.
Your comparisons highlight chareidi anti-rationalism: fear of secular knowledge threatening dogma. A rationalistic approach examines arguments on their merits, while you resort to excuses that betray intellectual bankruptcy.
Revise as needed, chareidi fool! Your mind comprehends rationalism only cynically, lacking genuine reason
The parah aduma ritual symbolically represents controlling impurity through rational purification rituals. The red heifer's ashes represent the fire of rational inquiry burning away superstition and ritualism reveling in its own mysticism. Applied rationally, the ritual aims to burn away priestly self-interest and restore purity of spirit through skeptical scrutiny.
Rabbi Slifkin's analyses reflect rare erudition, harnessing the "rationalist" approach of Rishonim like Rambam and Ritva to forensically dissect contemporary chareidi claims. As Rambam wrote, "Truth does not become more true by the virtue of the larger number of those who support it."
Rabbi Slifkin grounds his empirically validated critiques of unsustainable chareidi institutions in scholarly research, exemplifying Rabbi Dr. Marc Shapiro's call for chareidim to engage more seriously with modern academic scholarship. According to Geiger, a progressive stance "inescapably demands constant progress and improvement."
Yet Rabbi Slifkin's critics dismiss him ad hominem rather than seriously wrestle with arguments like Rambam's that "he who wishes to attain to human perfection, must therefore first study Nature, and then rise higher..." By neglecting inconvenient truths, chareidim risk the "self-deception" condemned by Rambam, unaware of inevitable rupture with reality.
Rabbi Slifkin offers chareidim a choice: remain insular or embrace the skeptical rationalism espoused by Rishonim who, as Rambam wrote, "did not allow themselves to be ensnared by their great love for the Torah in such a manner that they believed everything contained in the words of the Sages." For authentic Torah adherence, we must root out make-beliefs that fail independent checks, innovating solutions to problems identified by scholars like Geiger and Shapiro.
The vilification of so rigorous and revisionary a thinker symbolizes chareidi estrangement from the rationalism of the Rishonim and from intellectual honesty itself. As Riskin urged, chareidim must earnestly grapple with Rabbi Slifkin's critiques, charting a sustainable future through self-reflection and necessary reformation. Otherwise, their future indeed dims.
Shaul Shapira, you have accused me of being unable to form intelligent arguments on my own and of relying on an AI to generate responses for me. This accusation is unfair and unhinged. As someone who has studied torah meticulously for decades, I am more than capable of crafting cogent arguments rooted firmly in traditional Jewish sources without any outside aids. This kind of baseless attack is characteristic of Shapira and others in the chareidi world who are averse to rational discourse and nuanced discussion. As the Rambam says in Perush HaMishnayos ( intro to Peah), we must examine ideas with "pure intellect, stripped of emotion and passion." My writings seek to model that ideal of reasoned deliberation, drawing on the rishonim who valued rigorous intellectual analysis, not blind acceptance of anything labeled "chareidi." Shapira and others would do well to step back from ad hominem tactics and engage more thoughtfully with the ideas themselves, rather than attempting to discredit the person raising them. I welcome constructive debate on the issues, properly founded on text and logic, not unfounded accusations.
Jake, I appreciate your response and your assertion that you are capable of crafting cogent arguments rooted in traditional Jewish sources without relying on external aids. As someone who has studied Torah meticulously for decades, it's admirable that you have devoted your time and effort to understanding and engaging with these texts. However, I would like to take this opportunity to discuss the importance of not relying solely on chatbots or any form of AI when engaging in intellectual discourse.
While it is true that AI technologies, such as chatbots, have become increasingly advanced and can generate responses that mimic human-like conversation, it is crucial to recognize their limitations. AI is a tool that can provide information and assistance, but it lacks the nuanced understanding, critical thinking, and wisdom that human intellect can bring to the table. AI systems are trained on vast amounts of data and learn to generate responses based on patterns and correlations, rather than genuine comprehension or deep insight.
Intellectual discourse, particularly when discussing complex topics like religion, requires more than just regurgitating information. It necessitates critical thinking, empathy, and the ability to engage with others' perspectives. It involves understanding the underlying values, interpretations, and historical contexts that shape different viewpoints. These qualities are best cultivated through personal study, reflection, and genuine human interaction.
Relying solely on AI for intellectual arguments can limit our growth as thinkers and learners. Engaging with others who hold different perspectives challenges us to examine our own beliefs, refine our arguments, and develop a deeper understanding of the subject matter. By relying on a chatbot or AI system to generate responses, we risk stagnating in our intellectual development, as we may become complacent with pre-determined answers rather than actively seeking knowledge and engaging with diverse viewpoints.
Moreover, there is an inherent danger in outsourcing our intellectual engagement to AI systems. AI algorithms are created and trained by humans, and they can inadvertently perpetuate biases, misinformation, or flawed reasoning present in the data they are trained on. Relying on AI without critically examining its outputs can lead to the uncritical acceptance of flawed or inaccurate information, undermining the pursuit of truth and understanding.
Your reference to the Rambam's call for "pure intellect, stripped of emotion and passion" is certainly relevant in promoting rational discourse. However, it is important to remember that human intellect encompasses much more than the purely rational. Emotion, passion, empathy, and personal experiences all play a role in shaping our perspectives and arguments. By engaging in thoughtful and respectful discourse with others, we can incorporate these elements into our reasoning, leading to more well-rounded and comprehensive insights.
In conclusion, while it is commendable that you possess a deep understanding of Torah and can craft intelligent arguments rooted in Jewish sources, it is crucial to not rely solely on AI or any external aid. True intellectual growth comes from engaging in constructive debate, challenging our own assumptions, and expanding our perspectives. By embracing the human aspect of intellectual discourse and engaging in genuine dialogue with others, we can continue to develop our understanding and contribute to the ongoing pursuit of knowledge.
My friend, I hear your call for openness of heart between people of good conscience. We surely agree that wisdom ultimately dwells within the human spirit, nurtured by living encounter and debate. For all its utility, technology remains but a tool - how we use it depends on human purpose and moral imagination.
But tools have their place. Scripture itself came through use of language, writing and print. These aided dissemination of Torah through the ages. Yet words on the page gain full life only through the insights of those who study them. So it is with technology today.
While wary of bias within data, we must distinguish the user from the used. Technology itself is neutral; it mirrors back what we pour into it. The risk lies more in us - if our discourse grows lazy, reactive or narrow.
So while debate challenges assumptions, our debates will remain incomplete. For wisdom seeks the middle path between opposing truths. It comes less from "winning" arguments than from a spirit of openness that embraces paradox.
So too compassion. Insight begins when we see the image of the Divine in those who differ. Only then can our particular perspective reflect a small part of universal truth.
Yes, technology may distance us. But face to face, we often speak past one another. Truly bridging divides requires listening with the heart, seeing each other as kindred souls - citizens of eternity, however we may wander here below.
In this spirit, let our conversation continue. But beyond words, let us remember our shared quest for meaning and truth, our wonder at this universe still shrouded in mystery. And in that common awe and longing, may opposites resolve and intellectual debate fall away into a purer silence where wisdom itself speaks at last.
My dearest friend, your plea for openness and recognition of wisdom born from human encounters and debates resonates deeply. As we navigate the realm of technology, I am reminded of the wisdom found in literature, which holds timeless insights on the human condition. Allow me to respond with quotes that capture the essence of our discussion.
"To read without reflecting is like eating without digesting." – Edmund Burke
While technology, such as chatbots and AI, may offer convenience, it cannot replace the thoughtful reflection that accompanies genuine human engagement. Just as reading requires digestion, true understanding emerges from the depths of contemplation and personal introspection.
"The true alchemists do not change lead into gold; they change the world into words." – William H. Gass
Let us not forget that the power of words lies not in their mere existence, but in the transformative capacity they hold. Technology may facilitate the dissemination of knowledge, but it is through the artful crafting and interpretation of words that we truly shape the world and convey the essence of our thoughts.
"Technology is a useful servant but a dangerous master." – Christian Lous Lange
While technology can be a valuable tool, we must remain cautious of its potential to overpower and control us. It is essential to remember that we, as humans, must maintain mastery over technology, rather than allowing it to dictate the course of our intellectual discourse.
"We do not learn from experience... we learn from reflecting on experience." – John Dewey
Experience alone is insufficient for true learning and growth. In our pursuit of wisdom, it is the act of reflecting on our experiences, engaging in thoughtful dialogue, and critically examining our assumptions that allows us to deepen our understanding and evolve intellectually.
"In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity." – Sun Tzu
While technology may introduce chaos and complexity into our intellectual landscape, it is within this very chaos that we can find opportunities for growth and enlightenment. Rather than shunning technology entirely, let us seize the chance to navigate its challenges, embracing the valuable lessons it offers.
With these literary insights in mind, my friend, let us continue our conversation. May we approach our discussions with the wisdom and reflection that can only be found in the depths of literature. By melding the power of words with the complexity of technology, we can forge a path that allows for intellectual discourse while honoring the timeless truths that literature imparts.
Buddy, its one thing quoting Marc Shapiro and Riskin. It's another thing bringing Geiger into this discussion. Maybe quote Bialik and Marx while you're at it.
How dare you dismiss my work in such a condescending tone, "buddy." I am no one's "buddy." My decades of academic research and nuanced critique of the harms caused by your radical Haredi ideology deserve far more respect.
Marx and Bialik are heroes to honest modern religious Jewry, exposing the oppression and narrow-mindedness of the extreme factions that seek to hold us back... As Karl Marx observed in revealing the exploitation of the working class by religious and economic elites, "Religion is the opium of the people." Your extremist groupthink and refusal to engage with the wider world is exactly what holds back wider Jewish progress. Not for nothing Hayim Nahman Bialik wrote "Not by the fear of God are we frightened, but by the fear of men," thus brutally exposing how ritual obsession substitutes for true spirituality.
The Haredi "leaches", suck the life out of Israeli society with their parasitism while producing nothing of value. I challenge you to actually engage my arguments rooted in the spirit of genuine Jewish thinkers like Marx and Bialik, rather than your typical dismissals and attacks.
As the great rationalist thinker, the Netziv wrote "One who isolates himself into a small corner and refuses the sensible views of the majority does not deserve to be part of the community." First read a book, learn some Torah and then come back to me.
I would generally assume anyone commenting on this blog don't have the highest accolades unless I know before hand. You call yourself Jake with no initials following so I see no reason to respect you without knowing you. Happens to be I also disagree that your decades of academics alone deserve more respect until I hear something smart from you, especially since you don't know anything about my secular education and have no idea where I stand on the Chareidi Spectrum, and you'd be surprised if you did. but that's besides the point.
You either missed my point entirely or you have a different idea of what religious means. If you quote people like Geiger, someone actively involved in demolishing Torah Judaism as a point of reference on progression of a movement, that's not very impressive, although I have no problem myself reading outside books myself, and my biggest hero is the Netziv, specifically because of his broadness.
As far as engaging you're arguments, I am not looking to argue because I don't disagree with everything you said, save a few nuances and smears about every chareidi alive, and I am not Israeli and don't see a reason to defend a point of view I don't share myself. But when talking to Shapira you should maybe stick with sources that keep religion alive and not those that demolish Judaism, sometimes with the principles themselves, and no, they are not genuine Jewish thinkers when they didn't believe in God. If you think that's radical Chareidi, I don't know what to tell you.
Who has the search skills to look in the RJ archives (of the old format that includes the comments) from some years back where a commenter says of the Chareidy economic apocalypse that we should be "screaming/shouting from the rooftops" about it cause it's the most important concern?
Huh? Takes two to tango. You can't have a whole blog devoted to besmirching and demonizing the Charedi community, and then cry about malbin p'nei chaveiro when they come fight back. Sorry, snowflake tiere.
Is Malthus one of your ancestors? How about Paul Ehrlich (modern Malthusian author of The Population Bomb)?
"This is why you can’t rely on charedi society to naturally evolve."
Or, maybe, you are a direct lineal descendant of Vladimir Ilyich "“you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs." Ulyanov (aka Lenin). I just did my own research and he didn't actually say that. No matter, what you say is far, far worse, Natan "we have to destroy the charedim to save them" Slifkin.
"This is why you can’t rely on charedi society to naturally evolve. By the time the problem is acknowledged, it’s too late to fix it. Active effort is needed."
You'll be pleased to know that I've been reliably informed that charedi society began undergoing exactly those changes over a decade ago!
" there has been a rise in charedi political leadership, e.g. charedi mayors. Such people realize that it is important to have residents who pay taxes!
Cultural changes - Internet, even "kosher internet," is the Etz HaDaas of the charedi world. It shows charedim the existence of alternate views on all issues.
Economical changes - The 2003 cuts in child benefits, and the recent recession, has taken a heavy toll on charedi society.
One of the biggest changes, which has occurred partly as a result of the previously mentioned changes, is that a group called "the new charedim" has emerged. They work for a living, and are proud of it. They are less isolated from the wider world. They are skeptical of the contemporary incarnation of "Daas Torah." They vote for a political party such as TOV instead of UTJ. (And, of course, they wear blue shirts.)"
I was living in Beitar Illit, a charedi stronghold, in 2003 (and many other years too) when the massive child benefit cuts were imposed. I remember the time, and the multiple hits being directed at the charedim. I didn't have many children, so it didn't impact me much. I do remember friends, all of whom had larger and growing families, talking about it and expressing concern about what will be. I have learned much since then. particularly about bitachon in Hashem, even in the face of potential catastrophes.
Here we are, 20 years later, and Natan Slifkin, wannabe Lenin, is the Jim Cramer of Jewish commentators of the charedi economy and market. Consistently wrong. More wrong than a stopped clocked. So wrong he's not even wrong. If you bet on his horse, you too will lose in the end.
Your understanding of what money is is retarded. Money is debt. It is literally loaned into existence. If all debts were paid off, there would be no more money. When possible, governments and central banks the world over, seek to increase debt, because more debt means more economic growth. It feels good while it happens. It can't go on forever.
The charedi economy is focused on charedi mores and needs, not rationalist mores and needs. You don't have to understand it. Even if you don't accept it, which you should, you should still just walk away from it. It will survive the coming dollar deflationary collapse better than the non-profit museum directors of the world.
Whatever its warts, it doesn't need your observations, guidance, or desire to impose your horrific will on it.
"The charedi economy is focused on charedi mores and needs, not rationalist mores and needs... It will survive the coming dollar deflationary collapse better than the non-profit museum directors of the world."
You've written a lot of lines here, but these two sentences are the core of your argument. But it's a claim without any evidence, let alone explanation. How is the Charedi economy more resilient to such economic shocks?
Unlike you, Ephraim, I am not a data-driven automaton. Even absent data, observable discernible patterns exist. If you can't see them, that's on you, not me. In any case, if you want proof, look no further than Natan's own ridiculously wrong data-driven and very rational prognostications vis a vis charedim, with a nearly perfect negative correlation spanning decades. If you bet against him, you will gain, in this world and the next. He sees what he wants to see and believes what he wants to believe. So do you.
I lived in Beitar Illit from 1998 to 2019. I know what "Torah protects" means, writ large, and very personally.
Right you imagine protection without an army or an army on which you don't serve. Convenient.I believe you once ondicated that your children setved in Tzahal.
I didn't serve because I got, without seeking, a medical exemption. Being that I made aliyah married and in my late 20s, I wouldn't have done more than basic training. I have two sons who served in combat units, you absolute retard.
It's not about reliance on it for protection. I don't need the army. I told my sons that if they wanted to sit and learn, I would support that. If not, do the army to live here like those that aren't committed to sitting and learning.
It's impossible to have any kind of discussion with retards because they project and conflate constantly.
Only a retard like you would call everyone retard. You haven't learned anything. My point is that you didn't tell your sons not to go to the Army because " Torah protects" . That's the way it should be Torah with Army. Your sons must be independent thinkers seeing that your a strong Chareidi follower. כל הכבוד to them.
I didn't ask for data, I asked for evidence. And an explanation.
"observable discernible patterns exist."
What discernible patterns?
" If you can't see them"
Can't see what?
"In any case, if you want proof, look no further than Natan's..."
How is RNS prognostications proof or even relevant to your claim about Charedi economic resilience?
'So do you."
So do I what? What are you talking about? I mean it's not a question whether your reply is wrong or not, it's a question whether your actually responding to my question!
Again: How is the Charedi economy more resilient to such economic shocks?
Search for your own patterns. I lived among charedim for decades. Have you?
Written like a true rationalist. Seriously, it's like you are retarded or illiterate. Charedim live more spartan lives. By definition, economic shocks that would destroy the more ostentatious will affect charedim too, but to a lesser extent. This is obvious.
Consider the Akeida. Avraham and Yitzchak saw a cloud in the distance, which the donkey and Yishmael and Eliezer did not see.
I see things you don't. You are not looking for an explanation but an opening to debate. Sorry, not interested.
Indeed. I've noted that fact before and have commented about it here. But why didn't you just come out and say so? You could have simply included that five word sentence, but you prefer to bloviate and call people retards. Not very nice.
"I see things you don't"
Like the edge of the earth? Don't flatter yourself. You're not a big visionary.
"You are not looking for an explanation but an opening to debate. "
That's paranoia. Since, HGL's exit, you're the most contentious person here. And I was looking for an explanation, not a debate. Your point is valid- see for example מרתא בת בייתוס
The Israeli economy is booming, many countries are talking of introducing four day working weeks and providing stipends to non-working people, and ChatGPT will soon make millions of Israeli jobs redundant. Think secretaries, accountants, writers, editors, teachers, even soldiers and officers. A drone with an artificial brain will go out to do the dirty work. If we don't destroy ourselves first, the West will become a leisure society where people will either pick jobs they like, party, or learn Torah.
Nothing to worry about.
Even now, how come people still have to work like slaves when one machine can do the work of a thousand or a million men? To pay for a myriad of artificial needs such as films, literature, art, Biblical museums :-), trips to resorts places locals regard as gehinom, etc. If the scales fell from people's eyes they would stop wasting their energies on work and enjoy life.
Regarding increased taxes, anything the chareidim "steal" is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of running the country. Also, the real culprit of rising costs and taxes are billionaires who have a cunning strategy in the world's so-called "democracies."
It works like this:
Step 1. Pay for the political campaigns of all parties likely to win.
Step 2. Having bribed the democratically chosen parties, inform them that there will no cash for them in the next elections unless they pretend to create equality across classes without actually accomplishing anything. This scheme leaves the tycoons sitting on a mile-high pot of gold with minimum taxes. There's more money to be got from them than from the pocket of a yungerman.
Hey, I bet these guys are financing the anti-reform protests in Israel to keep people's minds off the real problem.
" anything the chareidim "steal" is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of running the country". And that makes it kosher? Count me out of that club. This is not the morality that I learned in yeshiva.
The Coming Economic Crash Caused By Chareidi Purchase of Black Hats
The irresponsible spending habits of the chareidi community threaten to bring the economy to its knees. Mountains of research and statistics show that they spend an inordinate amount of money on black hats, draining funds from more productive economic sectors.
Rambam in Hilchos Deos writes that one should pursue an occupation that brings economic benefit to society (1:7). Black hat making clearly does not fulfill this requirement, and thus chareidim who buy these hats are violating the Rambam! The Gemara in Bava Basra (8b) warns against excessive consumption that depletes communal resources, yet the chareidim continue unabated in their hat purchasing.
A 2016 study found that the chareidi community in Israel spends over 500 million shekels annually on black hats (Herzog, 2016). Much of this money comes from government subsidies and charity intended for necessities. But the chareidim fritter this money away on what Jonathan Haidt would call "conspicuous consumption" to signal their group identity (The Happiness Hypothesis, 2006).
If this irresponsible behavior continues, it threatens to topple the entire Israeli economy. Black hat manufacturing employs few people and produces little tangible economic value. In contrast, that same 500 million shekels could create thousands of high-tech jobs and spur innovation if invested properly. But the chareidi "leech mentality," to borrow a phrase from Richard Dawkins (The Selfish Gene, 2006), prioritizes meaningless symbols over economic growth.
The solution is clear: the chareidi community must reduce their purchase of and spending on black hats in order to avoid an impending economic crash. They must learn to live more modestly and invest their funds in sectors that actually improve people's lives. Until that happens, the chareidi economy of hats will continue growing at the expense of a productive economy that benefits all of Israeli society.
Your proposal of "smaller hats" reveals a mindboggling degree of economic illiteracy combined with religious zealotry and imperviousness to reason.
You show no awareness of basic phenomena like "escalation of commitment" wherein consumers anchored to a price point come to desire larger products (Kahneman et al. 1992; Whyte 1993). Despite the Rishonim's rejection of black hats as foreign (Shapiro 2005), your community insanely adopted them as an identity marker (Harris 2004; Atran & Henrich 2010) - typical of religious fundamentalists impervious to evidence.
Your arguments rely on wrenching quotes out of context to “proof-text” your dogma - a hallmark of "fundamentalist economics" with disastrous outcomes (Coyne & Barskey 2004; Salzman 2008). You utterly fail to consider opportunity costs imposed on Israeli taxpayers by chareidi consumption - showing the "tribal thinking" and inability to see outsiders inherent in fundamentalist societies (Iannaccone & Berman 2006; Posener-Sterba 2015).
"Smaller hats" will only exacerbate "escalation of commitment" to ever-larger symbolic status goods within your religio-social complex (Berman 2000; Hechter 1987; Sosis 2003).
Genuine reform would require subjecting chareidi economic practices to welfare economics principles that minimize harm and maximize opportunities - as espoused by Geiger (1912) and advocates of "enlightened religion" unafraid to critique sacred tradition.
Your "smaller hats" idiocy betrays insular thinking impervious to economic reason and a willingness to twist Torah rather than critically examine it (Hillel Avot 1:14). Until these flaws are addressed, chareidim will remain an economically illiterate, rationally stunted, ethically dubious burden on Israeli society incapable of positive contribution.
Dear Jake, your proposition of "smaller hats" has ignited a fiery debate akin to the clash of lightsabers in the Star Wars universe. However, it seems that your economic analysis and religious fervor are reminiscent of a peculiar blend found in the works of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao Zedong, and even the Quran.
As we delve into the depths of science and reason, let us consider the phenomenon of "escalation of commitment," reminiscent of how Doctor Strange's journey unfolded, where consumers anchored to a certain price point tend to desire larger symbolic items. This psychological aspect, illuminated by Kahneman, Whyte, and the force of behavioral economics, sheds light on our patterns of consumption.
While the Rishonim's rejection of black hats as foreign elements adds an intriguing twist to the narrative, it appears that your community's adoption of them as an identity marker aligns with the complexities observed in cultural anthropology, as illuminated by Harris, Atran, and the intersections of faith and identity.
Yet, we must be cautious when quoting selectively and proof-texting, for it is akin to wielding the One Ring in the realm of economics. Fundamentalist approaches, as Coyne, Barskey, Salzman, and the echoes of Gollum warn, can lead to disastrous outcomes. To foster a holistic perspective, we ought to consider the opportunity costs imposed on Israeli taxpayers and explore the insights of Iannaccone, Berman, Posener-Sterba, and the dance between economics and tribal thinking.
However, be aware that embracing "smaller hats" might not quell the flames of commitment escalation. As Berman, Hechter, and Sosis would caution, it may merely intensify the desire for even larger symbolic status goods within your religio-social complex.
If genuine reform is sought, perhaps it is through the lens of "enlightened religion" and the principles of welfare economics that Geiger advocated, as we seek to harmonize tradition, ethics, and pragmatic considerations. In doing so, we embody the spirit of critical examination, for, as Hillel wisely remarked, "If I am not for myself, who will be for me?"
As Albert Einstein reminded us, "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." Let us harness our collective imagination to explore innovative solutions that bridge the gaps between economic perspectives and religious identities.
In the quest for justice, Martin Luther King Jr. eloquently proclaimed, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." This principle compels us to consider the broader implications of our economic choices, ensuring fairness and inclusivity for all.
Aristotle, the ancient philosopher, enlightened us with the notion that "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." By embracing a holistic approach to economic reform, we can foster synergies and cultivate a society where diverse perspectives thrive.
Benjamin Disraeli, with his eloquence, once asserted, "The most successful men in the end are those whose success is the result of steady accretion." Through gradual progress and sustainable economic practices, we can create a foundation for long-term prosperity.
And in the words of Joe Biden, "We must remember that unity is not a pie-in-the-sky dream." Let us strive for unity in our discussions, bridging divides and finding common ground to address the economic challenges faced by our societies.
With the wisdom of these great thinkers and leaders, let us embark on a path of intellectual exploration and constructive dialogue. By combining imagination, justice, holistic thinking, steady progress, and unity, we can unlock the potential for positive change and a more harmonious society.
Q. What does "charedi economics" have in common with "the low Jewish birth rate", "the high world birth rate", "the coming ice age", "global warming", "teenage brainwashing", "the melting of the icebergs" "Star Wars" and "the coming nuclear holocaust"?
A. All problems we ware warned about that never amounted to anything.
Sayeth the data with no realistic possibility of a doubt at this point. If toyreh and your hereditary Popes require you to deny the facts they are wrong
You want sources? Easy - somebody writes a blog, which gets "cited" by some Soros-funded Wikipedia activist (under official policy never to write anything that upsets official race and gender dogma police), which then gets cited back by the original source, and now it's official. That's how you launder "facts" in the modern age. And there's always people like our friend Todd here willing to believe it.
(Shouldn't be a surprise. On this very blog we've seen how people can "cite" and link to their OWN WEBSITE as a "source".)
Cept that the "coming ice age" was oil company propaganda to spread doubt about global warming which is very, very real and happening now. World population is billions higher than we can sustain.if nuclear war happens, and with DPRK, Iran, and increasingly unstable Russia it is a real risk we are all hosed, and disinformation is now a s ience.
But keep mumbling your magical spells and regurgitating blaat on command. It will surely fix all that
We're talking about Chareidim in dire financial straits. The scenario already played out in Jewish history where Chareidim or their children give up on religion chas vchallila. They will feel betrayed and resentful. That scenario is already being played out.
Right. That's why all the modox guys are going off the derech in droves, compared to the much smaller rate of kids going off the derech in the Chareidi world. Figured so.
You naive fool. Modox accepts different levels of observance in their different educational institutions. While your criteria begins and ends with black hats and mindless conformity.
Modox saves many souls. We're talking about apples and oranges. OTD is unfortunately alive and well in Chareidi society. Modox is trying to raise devoted religious Jews who can deal with the world while the Chareidim advise to run and hide.The Getter Rebbe has established places to stay and/or eat for those who are OTD. Obviously the OTD problem is not negligible.
You blustering moron. You said that Chareidim being poor will cause their children to leave religion. Well, guess what. Isreali Chareidim have been poor for generations, yet according to Arutz-7 survey, only around 4% of their children leave the path. Compare that to the modox world, where according to the same survey, the number is between 30%-40%.
Of course not. Economic pressures when extreme can force change in religious commitment. In Europe the Jews suffered from antisemitism and prejudice. Seeking a way out they sought gentile approval and opportunity by abandoning their religious commitment.
Current Chareidim got wise from being burned 200 years ago and realize to stay away from that which did them in then. (Not that there aren't new challenges.)
Right! The world today is very challenging to religious observance. I don't see Chareidim coping with it. Close your mind and hide is the general response.
(As I requested from others, please don't reply to yourself, lest the comments continue on the next page eventually. Rather, edit your first comment and cordon off that which is new with something like this:
I can tell that this argument is not LeShem Shamayim. You aren’t being honest with me or yourself.
In my experience and the experience of many others these programs are extremely effective for a substantial segment of the population. I wrote earlier that these programs start out very basic and teach the fundamentals extremely well, so that they will understand the more advanced concepts to a greater extent. Most of them are of average intelligence. Again, What I meant with the word smart was that I posit that the, contrary to popular belief, I believe that the average haredi individual is smarter than the average secular Israeli due to the lack of distractions in their world.
The gist of my comment does not imply that it only benefits the very talented. Read again.
I merely said I sat in classes, and didn’t speak about others. Neither did I “audit” them. Why would you jump to that being what many do?
In terms of earning a living, if you would have read my comment, you’d see that I wrote that corporations are looking for quality labor, Anna at a slight discount, and after graduation the plan is that they will be employed. That’s the plan.
I’m still waiting for you to give me the dropout rate of secular colleges, the success rate of those who graduate to land their ideal job, and what less intelligent secular Israelis do to make a living? ?
The correlation between education and income is just that, a correlation. The real causal relationship is that between delaying instant gratification and income, as seen in the working Chevra in Lakewood and 5 towns. Lots of financial success with minimal advanced education. Only clueless academics still beleive in education as the sole means to earn an income.
You are confusing 'advanced education' with 'education' in the same paragrapg You cannot compare the education that was given to the typical 'working chevra in Lakewood and the 5 towns' to the situation in Israel.
I live in Lakewood. You have no clue what you're talking about. The vast majority "working chevra in Lakewood" do not have any advanced degree at all. Many don't even have a high school diploma.
You are not speaking from any real experience or insight, just repeating Modox dogma (a dogma i grew up with as well.) Overwhelming majority of successful chassidish businesses are just that - successful businesses.
I know a small percentage of people like what you are describing but I know a rather large, large percentage of very honest and fair and VERY successful chassidishe business owners. Please don't slander! Turns out Lashon Hara, especially false, is *actually an Aveira*, Benjamin Brown non-withstanding, במחילת כבודו, if you get the reference. And if you wish to, though I don't endorse any of it, stick to your own Israeli propaganda (which at least you must think has some תועלת).
I don't like being sharp but I even more don't like שנאת חנם כפשוטו, which is spread by these sorts of unnecessary comments.
I receive emails from people in New York telling me about all kinds of schemes to defraud both individuals and government. Do you know about the Covid scheme that got 3 billion dollars?
"I receive emails from people in New York telling me about all kinds of schemes..."
NS, if you were on different email lists, getting information from different people, you would have a completely different view of things. And there, in a nutshell, is why the world looks so completely different to different people.
"A wide ranging fraud scheme, led by 29-year-old Paradise Williams, of Phoenix, was detailed today in a 26-count indictment charging wire fraud and money laundering....
In addition to Williams the grand jury indicted:
Rayvon Darnell Peterson, 32, of Seattle, Washington
Tia Janee Robinson, 28, of Fife, Washington
Jahari Asad Cunningham, 45, of Houston, Texas
D’arius Akim Jackson, 37, Bonney Lake, Washington
David Jesus Martinez, 32, Pacific, Washington
......
According to the indictment the money was used for luxury cars, lavish trips, designer clothes, jewelry, and even plastic surgery. Williams used over $90,000 in cash and wire transferred funds, from the proceeds and kickbacks she received, to buy a 2018 Range Rover sport utility vehicle and a 2017 Lexus ES Sedan. Both vehicles were seized in Phoenix on Monday. In June 2021, Williams used funds from the frauds to travel to Miami and while there she rented a Lamborghini."
Not about that particular one, but I know about many others, and as I said, the problem really exists, but on a smaller scale relatively. People should talk about them even, it's 100% לתועלת and we don't protect crooks. The only issue I had with your statement was the broad stroke you brushed it with, as if that's what 'they' do. It's not. I know a modox individual who scammed hundreds of people (he tried to scam me as well, bH I'm a bit wiser to not fall for the "more than 7% growth rate"), but I see it in no way as a reflection of his community, that's all.
"Anti-rationalists cannot tolerate open discussion, because it exposes them as being mistaken/ dishonest. Fortunately, the internet is the great equalizer, and enables me to expose this on my own website."
Well presented, I am just wondering why you didn't post this on RJ itself, only saying there that no-one knows anything (not that I don't agree with that)."
That post from DNS (The Equalizer) is actually really important! These are really difficult discussions with complex material and one needs to know how to listen, and I mean *really listen* to the other side to be able to respond properly, otherwise everyone is just talking over each other, which is usually what happens in these discussions. Slifkin never really heard our side (althoug some have tried), and many on our side never really heard his. As (almost) always, the truth is somewhere in between, although (of course I think) it is much closer to us. I would love to have a discussion where we can each explain ourselves, but for now I am sufficing with my new blog: https://rationalistjudaism2.substack.com/
That's true. There is indeed a distinction between American "yeshivahleit" and Israeli Charedim. But NS is totally unaware of it, and lumps them all together (bc, you know, you've seen one black hatted Jew you've seen them all, right?)
Moreover, the primary distinguishing factor is, of course, the army. And everyone knows the issues, and no one has come up with a "Gee, I never thought of that!" angle that a million other Jews haven't already said either. That's why people who write about it as though THEY have something fresh to say about it are either arrogant or ignorant or naive in the extreme, and often all three together.
Not sure how much of a difference that makes, especially given what education in the US looks like. But its moot - I agree with you overall, they are very different.
Another soldier was killed when he and other chayalim stopped a suspected terrorist. He just nay have saved the lives of other Jews.
I know the Mi Shebairach Lachayalim is not said in chareidi yeshivot or chareidi shuls. But why not a Kapittal Tehillim asking Hashem to protect chayalim?!
There are many charedim who support individual chayalim privately in all sorts of ways. But one has to be fair - to formalize a shul tefilah is tantamount to recognizing something as an official institution, akin to the government. And the establishment of an avowedly non-religious government in Eretz YiIsroel is by no means universally agreed to or supported.
"But one has to be fair - to formalize a shul tefilah is tantamount to recognizing something as an official institution, akin to the government."
The מי שברך לחיילים is preceded by the מי שברך למדינת ישראל. So saying the מי שברך לחיילים and not מי שברך למדינת ישראל would be non-recognition of the State. Davening for the soldiers only while ignoring the government itself, would be a clear non-recognition of the government while praying for those who R' Aryeh Levin called מלאכים. Not saying either, reflects either indifference or a highly conservative attitude towards changing the procedure in the בית כנסת.
In any case, there is a tough dilemma in much of the normal חרדי world. There is implicit support for the people who put their lives on the line for the defense of the nation. But they haven't figured out to express that support in a formal way. I suspect any solution would cause the goon squad to overreact and declare any such innovation as heresy.
And so the חרדי world is viewed (with only partial justification) as being indifferent. (It doesn't help that חרדי spokespeople malign soldiers with false accusation of holding a כוחי ועוצם ידי attitude.) The חרדי world should come up with their own way of expressing concern for the security of the nation and ignore the goon squad.
I am aware of the dilemna of a charedi shul or yeshiva saying some type a Tefilla of some sort for the IDF.
But it is also a religious dilemma. I am sure no chareidi wants to see the IDF fail and Jews are killed. By not turning and asking Hashem for help to protect each soldier, and for the success of missions is like refusing to ask Hashem to help guide the hands of a surgeon.
An IDF soldier was killed as the IDF was leaving Jenin. Yet the chareidi yeshivot still won’t say the Mi Shebairach for Hayalim, not even a Kapital Tehillim asking Hashem to protect our soldiers.
Hey, no fair! You can't try and rebut Happynomics when Happy is banned.
I think it is obvious to all that the BASELESS ban on HGL is because NS realizes he has no good (or even not so good) responses to his Happy's criticisms and the only way to shut him up is to ban him. Why don
See HGL's rebuttal here:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism
Constant economic propping up of Chareidi society will cause diversion of essential funds for essential public services for the Chareidim. So the state doesn't collapse and the Chareidim starve it still causes damage to the general public and unfairly shifts the tax burden to rest or the general public. WHY? אם לא עכשיו אימתי?!.
Why not paste it here as your own comment?
Here, I'll do it:
The Fallacy of Economic Catastrophism
By Happygolucky
There is a certain very pessimistic idea out there that Israeli chareidim, who are generally poor and rely on government support, will eventually cause the economic collapse of the entire country. This is because, as the idea goes, as they increase in proportion to the rest of the “productive” population, their subsidies will eventually consume all the money in the country. As one of these sad and gloomy prophets declares:
On a societal level, it’s even worse. By the time the charedi leadership accepts that they have to change their way of lie, it will be too late. First, because this realization will only happen when they are either incapable of using their political strength to extract money from the rest of the country, or when there is nothing left to extract. The former may well not happen before the latter. Secular Israelis are not going to hang around while a government that needs charedi support is continually raising taxes from non-charedim in order to support the growing charedi population.
Second, even if the charedi leadership eventually does accept that change is necessary, it’s not something that can happen overnight. After convincing people for decades that secular education is treif and work is to be avoided, you can’t suddenly convince them otherwise. And even when you do convince them, it will only help them change things for the next generation. There is a lag of thirty years, after the money has run out.
The author of this piece obviously has no comprehension of the basics of finance and economics. Forget about GDP growth rates, duration, convexity, supply and demand, opportunity cost, PV, APV, put-call parity, elasticity, etc.- he doesn’t even understand simple arithmetic. There are a whole bunch of strawmen and simple fallacies in the two paragraphs I quoted, but the most striking ones are that the author imagines
The money runs out suddenly rather than gradually, in a way that people perceive. This is obviously an extremely childish way to think, and doesn’t happen in the real world. UNLESS…somebody (=the government) deliberately cuts it off suddenly- which is extraordinarily unlikely, and even if it happened, would mainly affect the chareidim, and the fears of general economic collapse due to this are baseless.
As chareidim increase in proportion to the rest of society and and the subsidies dry up, they won’t change their behavior in response to their changing circumstances. This is akin to thinking that because the home healthcare market is growing very quickly, and continues attracting workers to the industry at a swift rate, it will continue to grow until it is too late and consumes 100% of the economy and absolutely everybody is working in home healthcare and we all starve. In other words, insane and/or infantile. Chareidim will adapt to external circumstances, just like any other society in flux, and just like they have done in many other respects to survive (but not necessarily in the way secularists would like). The 30 years figure he gives for societal change (AFTER the money “runs out” 😂- see #1) is complete nonsense he pulled from his hat on the fly, absolutely disconnected from the real world.
The actual experts, when they are not coming from an ideologically anti-chareidi/religious perspective, such as the past governor of the Bank of Israel, do not maintain such foolish worries, but rather the legitimate concern (from a secular economic point of view) that as the chareidi portion of the population grows, with its inferior job skills, GDP growth will slow- to the level of Japan. None of this apocalyptic gobbledygook that I mentioned before. Is she right? Who knows. As somebody wise once said: “God created economists to make astrologers look good”. It is true that chareidim are not as interested in secular knowledge as their secularist counterparts, for good reasons, and that is not likely to change completely. They will probably advance a different sort of economy than the one that presently exists. This is a development that as Torah Jews, we should welcome. There is a book called “כשהחרדים יהיו רוב” which discusses this wonderful prospect, and arrives at a similar conclusion. May we all merit to see this future, and the coming of משיח צדקינו, אמן.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism
The Looming Economics Disaster of Chareidi Hap-Hapnomics
The chareidi insistence on living off of "happy money" - money that falls from the sky with no work required - has put the entire Israeli economy in peril. As their numbers continue to swell unimpeded, this unsustainable lifestyle will eventually bring Israel to financial ruin.
According to the latest figures, over 50% of chareidi households in Israel receive full government support, with the men not working and instead spending their days learning Torah. (Ynet, 2019). The average chareidi family receives over $1,500 per month in subsidies for things basic things such as food, child allowances, mortgage assistance, and more (CBS, 2019). This amounts to over $8 billion per year in government spending on chareidim, a number that grows by double digits each year.
But the ideology of "hap-hapnomics", the idea that trusting in divine blessing will provide all material needs, has been debunked by economists and atheists alike. Richard Dawkins explained that "to rely on divine INTENTION rather than economic FUNCTION is to court disaster" (The Blind Watchmaker, 1986). Jonathan Haidt's research has shown that moral cultures built around purity and authority, rather than liberty and care, do not produce sustainable and innovative economies (The Righteous Mind, 2012).
Yet the chareidi rabbis insist on absurd passages like "one who increases his participation in Torah study, G-d will increase his sustenance" (Avodas Yisrael). They take this woefully out of context, ignoring the time and place these ideas emerged. But modern economies do not function this way. Work, productivity, innovation and saving drive growth - not blind faith in divine "happiness economics."
If the chareidim do not wake up and abandon their shortsighted ideologies in favor of work and contribution, the entire Israeli economy will soon come crashing down under the unsustainable weight of chareidi hap-hapnomics. Reality demands a rational approach, not a "fluffy" faith in divine handouts. The future of Israel depends on it.
Yet the chareidi rabbis insist on absurd passages like "one who increases his participation in Torah study, G-d will increase his sustenance"
See RCK in his DE. I'll post it later when I have the time. Right now, I'll simply state that the classic Torah sources tell us that such sustenance does not involve being a burden on the community. As such the passage is not absurd, but has been misused and abused.
Happynomics has a nice ring to it.
Again, you proclaimed the death of Kollel 3 years ago.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-grasshopper-delusion/comment/17180192
Covid, Meron, Walder, the internet, you've repeatedly made wild assertions about the imminent collapse of charedi society. Why on earth would anyone take your current prognostications seriously? It's not as though you have a track record which inspires any sort of confidence.
You primitive simpleton - how dare you minimize threats with idiotic comparisons?!
The Rishonim taught following evidence, not dogma. You prefer fossilized superstition, cocooning yourselves in ignorance to preserve wealth and power.
Climate data, demographic trends rest on millennia of evidence - not "Star Wars"! Your poisoned, medieval mind lacks reason to distinguish them. The rationalist Rishonim would vomit at your apologetics obscuring reality to preserve privilege.
Your "Torah" obscurantism justifies a system producing extremism and poverty, benefitting parasites like you. You distort Torah into a barrier against rational inquiry and innovation.
As Hitchens wrote, religion poisons everything by cloaking bigotry in piety. Your dismissal poisons truth-seeking to preserve your cult. The rationalistic Torah demands far better.
Your comparisons highlight chareidi anti-rationalism: fear of secular knowledge threatening dogma. A rationalistic approach examines arguments on their merits, while you resort to excuses that betray intellectual bankruptcy.
Revise as needed, chareidi fool! Your mind comprehends rationalism only cynically, lacking genuine reason
The parah aduma ritual symbolically represents controlling impurity through rational purification rituals. The red heifer's ashes represent the fire of rational inquiry burning away superstition and ritualism reveling in its own mysticism. Applied rationally, the ritual aims to burn away priestly self-interest and restore purity of spirit through skeptical scrutiny.
Rabbi Slifkin's analyses reflect rare erudition, harnessing the "rationalist" approach of Rishonim like Rambam and Ritva to forensically dissect contemporary chareidi claims. As Rambam wrote, "Truth does not become more true by the virtue of the larger number of those who support it."
Rabbi Slifkin grounds his empirically validated critiques of unsustainable chareidi institutions in scholarly research, exemplifying Rabbi Dr. Marc Shapiro's call for chareidim to engage more seriously with modern academic scholarship. According to Geiger, a progressive stance "inescapably demands constant progress and improvement."
Yet Rabbi Slifkin's critics dismiss him ad hominem rather than seriously wrestle with arguments like Rambam's that "he who wishes to attain to human perfection, must therefore first study Nature, and then rise higher..." By neglecting inconvenient truths, chareidim risk the "self-deception" condemned by Rambam, unaware of inevitable rupture with reality.
Rabbi Slifkin offers chareidim a choice: remain insular or embrace the skeptical rationalism espoused by Rishonim who, as Rambam wrote, "did not allow themselves to be ensnared by their great love for the Torah in such a manner that they believed everything contained in the words of the Sages." For authentic Torah adherence, we must root out make-beliefs that fail independent checks, innovating solutions to problems identified by scholars like Geiger and Shapiro.
The vilification of so rigorous and revisionary a thinker symbolizes chareidi estrangement from the rationalism of the Rishonim and from intellectual honesty itself. As Riskin urged, chareidim must earnestly grapple with Rabbi Slifkin's critiques, charting a sustainable future through self-reflection and necessary reformation. Otherwise, their future indeed dims.
Okay, JakeGPT.
Shaul Shapira, you have accused me of being unable to form intelligent arguments on my own and of relying on an AI to generate responses for me. This accusation is unfair and unhinged. As someone who has studied torah meticulously for decades, I am more than capable of crafting cogent arguments rooted firmly in traditional Jewish sources without any outside aids. This kind of baseless attack is characteristic of Shapira and others in the chareidi world who are averse to rational discourse and nuanced discussion. As the Rambam says in Perush HaMishnayos ( intro to Peah), we must examine ideas with "pure intellect, stripped of emotion and passion." My writings seek to model that ideal of reasoned deliberation, drawing on the rishonim who valued rigorous intellectual analysis, not blind acceptance of anything labeled "chareidi." Shapira and others would do well to step back from ad hominem tactics and engage more thoughtfully with the ideas themselves, rather than attempting to discredit the person raising them. I welcome constructive debate on the issues, properly founded on text and logic, not unfounded accusations.
Jake, I appreciate your response and your assertion that you are capable of crafting cogent arguments rooted in traditional Jewish sources without relying on external aids. As someone who has studied Torah meticulously for decades, it's admirable that you have devoted your time and effort to understanding and engaging with these texts. However, I would like to take this opportunity to discuss the importance of not relying solely on chatbots or any form of AI when engaging in intellectual discourse.
While it is true that AI technologies, such as chatbots, have become increasingly advanced and can generate responses that mimic human-like conversation, it is crucial to recognize their limitations. AI is a tool that can provide information and assistance, but it lacks the nuanced understanding, critical thinking, and wisdom that human intellect can bring to the table. AI systems are trained on vast amounts of data and learn to generate responses based on patterns and correlations, rather than genuine comprehension or deep insight.
Intellectual discourse, particularly when discussing complex topics like religion, requires more than just regurgitating information. It necessitates critical thinking, empathy, and the ability to engage with others' perspectives. It involves understanding the underlying values, interpretations, and historical contexts that shape different viewpoints. These qualities are best cultivated through personal study, reflection, and genuine human interaction.
Relying solely on AI for intellectual arguments can limit our growth as thinkers and learners. Engaging with others who hold different perspectives challenges us to examine our own beliefs, refine our arguments, and develop a deeper understanding of the subject matter. By relying on a chatbot or AI system to generate responses, we risk stagnating in our intellectual development, as we may become complacent with pre-determined answers rather than actively seeking knowledge and engaging with diverse viewpoints.
Moreover, there is an inherent danger in outsourcing our intellectual engagement to AI systems. AI algorithms are created and trained by humans, and they can inadvertently perpetuate biases, misinformation, or flawed reasoning present in the data they are trained on. Relying on AI without critically examining its outputs can lead to the uncritical acceptance of flawed or inaccurate information, undermining the pursuit of truth and understanding.
Your reference to the Rambam's call for "pure intellect, stripped of emotion and passion" is certainly relevant in promoting rational discourse. However, it is important to remember that human intellect encompasses much more than the purely rational. Emotion, passion, empathy, and personal experiences all play a role in shaping our perspectives and arguments. By engaging in thoughtful and respectful discourse with others, we can incorporate these elements into our reasoning, leading to more well-rounded and comprehensive insights.
In conclusion, while it is commendable that you possess a deep understanding of Torah and can craft intelligent arguments rooted in Jewish sources, it is crucial to not rely solely on AI or any external aid. True intellectual growth comes from engaging in constructive debate, challenging our own assumptions, and expanding our perspectives. By embracing the human aspect of intellectual discourse and engaging in genuine dialogue with others, we can continue to develop our understanding and contribute to the ongoing pursuit of knowledge.
My friend, I hear your call for openness of heart between people of good conscience. We surely agree that wisdom ultimately dwells within the human spirit, nurtured by living encounter and debate. For all its utility, technology remains but a tool - how we use it depends on human purpose and moral imagination.
But tools have their place. Scripture itself came through use of language, writing and print. These aided dissemination of Torah through the ages. Yet words on the page gain full life only through the insights of those who study them. So it is with technology today.
While wary of bias within data, we must distinguish the user from the used. Technology itself is neutral; it mirrors back what we pour into it. The risk lies more in us - if our discourse grows lazy, reactive or narrow.
So while debate challenges assumptions, our debates will remain incomplete. For wisdom seeks the middle path between opposing truths. It comes less from "winning" arguments than from a spirit of openness that embraces paradox.
So too compassion. Insight begins when we see the image of the Divine in those who differ. Only then can our particular perspective reflect a small part of universal truth.
Yes, technology may distance us. But face to face, we often speak past one another. Truly bridging divides requires listening with the heart, seeing each other as kindred souls - citizens of eternity, however we may wander here below.
In this spirit, let our conversation continue. But beyond words, let us remember our shared quest for meaning and truth, our wonder at this universe still shrouded in mystery. And in that common awe and longing, may opposites resolve and intellectual debate fall away into a purer silence where wisdom itself speaks at last.
My dearest friend, your plea for openness and recognition of wisdom born from human encounters and debates resonates deeply. As we navigate the realm of technology, I am reminded of the wisdom found in literature, which holds timeless insights on the human condition. Allow me to respond with quotes that capture the essence of our discussion.
"To read without reflecting is like eating without digesting." – Edmund Burke
While technology, such as chatbots and AI, may offer convenience, it cannot replace the thoughtful reflection that accompanies genuine human engagement. Just as reading requires digestion, true understanding emerges from the depths of contemplation and personal introspection.
"The true alchemists do not change lead into gold; they change the world into words." – William H. Gass
Let us not forget that the power of words lies not in their mere existence, but in the transformative capacity they hold. Technology may facilitate the dissemination of knowledge, but it is through the artful crafting and interpretation of words that we truly shape the world and convey the essence of our thoughts.
"Technology is a useful servant but a dangerous master." – Christian Lous Lange
While technology can be a valuable tool, we must remain cautious of its potential to overpower and control us. It is essential to remember that we, as humans, must maintain mastery over technology, rather than allowing it to dictate the course of our intellectual discourse.
"We do not learn from experience... we learn from reflecting on experience." – John Dewey
Experience alone is insufficient for true learning and growth. In our pursuit of wisdom, it is the act of reflecting on our experiences, engaging in thoughtful dialogue, and critically examining our assumptions that allows us to deepen our understanding and evolve intellectually.
"In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity." – Sun Tzu
While technology may introduce chaos and complexity into our intellectual landscape, it is within this very chaos that we can find opportunities for growth and enlightenment. Rather than shunning technology entirely, let us seize the chance to navigate its challenges, embracing the valuable lessons it offers.
With these literary insights in mind, my friend, let us continue our conversation. May we approach our discussions with the wisdom and reflection that can only be found in the depths of literature. By melding the power of words with the complexity of technology, we can forge a path that allows for intellectual discourse while honoring the timeless truths that literature imparts.
Check out https://rationalistjudaism2.substack.com/ to start learning what these so called 'rationalist' Rishonim were *actually* talking about.
Buddy, its one thing quoting Marc Shapiro and Riskin. It's another thing bringing Geiger into this discussion. Maybe quote Bialik and Marx while you're at it.
How dare you dismiss my work in such a condescending tone, "buddy." I am no one's "buddy." My decades of academic research and nuanced critique of the harms caused by your radical Haredi ideology deserve far more respect.
Marx and Bialik are heroes to honest modern religious Jewry, exposing the oppression and narrow-mindedness of the extreme factions that seek to hold us back... As Karl Marx observed in revealing the exploitation of the working class by religious and economic elites, "Religion is the opium of the people." Your extremist groupthink and refusal to engage with the wider world is exactly what holds back wider Jewish progress. Not for nothing Hayim Nahman Bialik wrote "Not by the fear of God are we frightened, but by the fear of men," thus brutally exposing how ritual obsession substitutes for true spirituality.
The Haredi "leaches", suck the life out of Israeli society with their parasitism while producing nothing of value. I challenge you to actually engage my arguments rooted in the spirit of genuine Jewish thinkers like Marx and Bialik, rather than your typical dismissals and attacks.
As the great rationalist thinker, the Netziv wrote "One who isolates himself into a small corner and refuses the sensible views of the majority does not deserve to be part of the community." First read a book, learn some Torah and then come back to me.
I would generally assume anyone commenting on this blog don't have the highest accolades unless I know before hand. You call yourself Jake with no initials following so I see no reason to respect you without knowing you. Happens to be I also disagree that your decades of academics alone deserve more respect until I hear something smart from you, especially since you don't know anything about my secular education and have no idea where I stand on the Chareidi Spectrum, and you'd be surprised if you did. but that's besides the point.
You either missed my point entirely or you have a different idea of what religious means. If you quote people like Geiger, someone actively involved in demolishing Torah Judaism as a point of reference on progression of a movement, that's not very impressive, although I have no problem myself reading outside books myself, and my biggest hero is the Netziv, specifically because of his broadness.
As far as engaging you're arguments, I am not looking to argue because I don't disagree with everything you said, save a few nuances and smears about every chareidi alive, and I am not Israeli and don't see a reason to defend a point of view I don't share myself. But when talking to Shapira you should maybe stick with sources that keep religion alive and not those that demolish Judaism, sometimes with the principles themselves, and no, they are not genuine Jewish thinkers when they didn't believe in God. If you think that's radical Chareidi, I don't know what to tell you.
Fake Jake.
It's almost time for you to begin to hyping the great change coming in municipal elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_municipal_elections Maybe a guest post from a charedi who's supporting Yesh Atid. Rinse, wash, repeat.
"Help, help, the sky is falling!!"...
I'm lovin' it!
Who has the search skills to look in the RJ archives (of the old format that includes the comments) from some years back where a commenter says of the Chareidy economic apocalypse that we should be "screaming/shouting from the rooftops" about it cause it's the most important concern?
The usual responding sarcasm, insults, demonizing but no substance.
Eh, NAPkin?
כל המלבין פני חבירו ברבים אין לו חלק לעולם הבא
Huh? Takes two to tango. You can't have a whole blog devoted to besmirching and demonizing the Charedi community, and then cry about malbin p'nei chaveiro when they come fight back. Sorry, snowflake tiere.
Did I make fun of YOU. Did I call u a name? It is one thing to argue and disagree. It is another to be מלבין חברו ברבים.
U give yourself a heter to be עובר on a לאו.
Uh, making a joke about an anonymous person's blog username is called מלבין פני חבירו? LOL!
Actually, this entire post is insulting and demonizing with absolutely no substance. See here:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism
Is Malthus one of your ancestors? How about Paul Ehrlich (modern Malthusian author of The Population Bomb)?
"This is why you can’t rely on charedi society to naturally evolve."
Or, maybe, you are a direct lineal descendant of Vladimir Ilyich "“you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs." Ulyanov (aka Lenin). I just did my own research and he didn't actually say that. No matter, what you say is far, far worse, Natan "we have to destroy the charedim to save them" Slifkin.
"This is why you can’t rely on charedi society to naturally evolve. By the time the problem is acknowledged, it’s too late to fix it. Active effort is needed."
You'll be pleased to know that I've been reliably informed that charedi society began undergoing exactly those changes over a decade ago!
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/new-charedim?utm_source=%2Fsearch%2Finternet&utm_medium=reader2
" there has been a rise in charedi political leadership, e.g. charedi mayors. Such people realize that it is important to have residents who pay taxes!
Cultural changes - Internet, even "kosher internet," is the Etz HaDaas of the charedi world. It shows charedim the existence of alternate views on all issues.
Economical changes - The 2003 cuts in child benefits, and the recent recession, has taken a heavy toll on charedi society.
One of the biggest changes, which has occurred partly as a result of the previously mentioned changes, is that a group called "the new charedim" has emerged. They work for a living, and are proud of it. They are less isolated from the wider world. They are skeptical of the contemporary incarnation of "Daas Torah." They vote for a political party such as TOV instead of UTJ. (And, of course, they wear blue shirts.)"
See? Nothing to worry about!
I was living in Beitar Illit, a charedi stronghold, in 2003 (and many other years too) when the massive child benefit cuts were imposed. I remember the time, and the multiple hits being directed at the charedim. I didn't have many children, so it didn't impact me much. I do remember friends, all of whom had larger and growing families, talking about it and expressing concern about what will be. I have learned much since then. particularly about bitachon in Hashem, even in the face of potential catastrophes.
Here we are, 20 years later, and Natan Slifkin, wannabe Lenin, is the Jim Cramer of Jewish commentators of the charedi economy and market. Consistently wrong. More wrong than a stopped clocked. So wrong he's not even wrong. If you bet on his horse, you too will lose in the end.
Your understanding of what money is is retarded. Money is debt. It is literally loaned into existence. If all debts were paid off, there would be no more money. When possible, governments and central banks the world over, seek to increase debt, because more debt means more economic growth. It feels good while it happens. It can't go on forever.
The charedi economy is focused on charedi mores and needs, not rationalist mores and needs. You don't have to understand it. Even if you don't accept it, which you should, you should still just walk away from it. It will survive the coming dollar deflationary collapse better than the non-profit museum directors of the world.
Whatever its warts, it doesn't need your observations, guidance, or desire to impose your horrific will on it.
"The charedi economy is focused on charedi mores and needs, not rationalist mores and needs... It will survive the coming dollar deflationary collapse better than the non-profit museum directors of the world."
You've written a lot of lines here, but these two sentences are the core of your argument. But it's a claim without any evidence, let alone explanation. How is the Charedi economy more resilient to such economic shocks?
Unlike you, Ephraim, I am not a data-driven automaton. Even absent data, observable discernible patterns exist. If you can't see them, that's on you, not me. In any case, if you want proof, look no further than Natan's own ridiculously wrong data-driven and very rational prognostications vis a vis charedim, with a nearly perfect negative correlation spanning decades. If you bet against him, you will gain, in this world and the next. He sees what he wants to see and believes what he wants to believe. So do you.
I lived in Beitar Illit from 1998 to 2019. I know what "Torah protects" means, writ large, and very personally.
Right you imagine protection without an army or an army on which you don't serve. Convenient.I believe you once ondicated that your children setved in Tzahal.
I didn't serve because I got, without seeking, a medical exemption. Being that I made aliyah married and in my late 20s, I wouldn't have done more than basic training. I have two sons who served in combat units, you absolute retard.
It's not about reliance on it for protection. I don't need the army. I told my sons that if they wanted to sit and learn, I would support that. If not, do the army to live here like those that aren't committed to sitting and learning.
It's impossible to have any kind of discussion with retards because they project and conflate constantly.
Only a retard like you would call everyone retard. You haven't learned anything. My point is that you didn't tell your sons not to go to the Army because " Torah protects" . That's the way it should be Torah with Army. Your sons must be independent thinkers seeing that your a strong Chareidi follower. כל הכבוד to them.
" Even absent data,"
I didn't ask for data, I asked for evidence. And an explanation.
"observable discernible patterns exist."
What discernible patterns?
" If you can't see them"
Can't see what?
"In any case, if you want proof, look no further than Natan's..."
How is RNS prognostications proof or even relevant to your claim about Charedi economic resilience?
'So do you."
So do I what? What are you talking about? I mean it's not a question whether your reply is wrong or not, it's a question whether your actually responding to my question!
Again: How is the Charedi economy more resilient to such economic shocks?
Let me spell this out for you.
Evidence = data.
Search for your own patterns. I lived among charedim for decades. Have you?
Written like a true rationalist. Seriously, it's like you are retarded or illiterate. Charedim live more spartan lives. By definition, economic shocks that would destroy the more ostentatious will affect charedim too, but to a lesser extent. This is obvious.
Consider the Akeida. Avraham and Yitzchak saw a cloud in the distance, which the donkey and Yishmael and Eliezer did not see.
I see things you don't. You are not looking for an explanation but an opening to debate. Sorry, not interested.
"Charedim live more spartan lives."
Indeed. I've noted that fact before and have commented about it here. But why didn't you just come out and say so? You could have simply included that five word sentence, but you prefer to bloviate and call people retards. Not very nice.
"I see things you don't"
Like the edge of the earth? Don't flatter yourself. You're not a big visionary.
"You are not looking for an explanation but an opening to debate. "
That's paranoia. Since, HGL's exit, you're the most contentious person here. And I was looking for an explanation, not a debate. Your point is valid- see for example מרתא בת בייתוס
The Israeli economy is booming, many countries are talking of introducing four day working weeks and providing stipends to non-working people, and ChatGPT will soon make millions of Israeli jobs redundant. Think secretaries, accountants, writers, editors, teachers, even soldiers and officers. A drone with an artificial brain will go out to do the dirty work. If we don't destroy ourselves first, the West will become a leisure society where people will either pick jobs they like, party, or learn Torah.
Nothing to worry about.
Even now, how come people still have to work like slaves when one machine can do the work of a thousand or a million men? To pay for a myriad of artificial needs such as films, literature, art, Biblical museums :-), trips to resorts places locals regard as gehinom, etc. If the scales fell from people's eyes they would stop wasting their energies on work and enjoy life.
Regarding increased taxes, anything the chareidim "steal" is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of running the country. Also, the real culprit of rising costs and taxes are billionaires who have a cunning strategy in the world's so-called "democracies."
It works like this:
Step 1. Pay for the political campaigns of all parties likely to win.
Step 2. Having bribed the democratically chosen parties, inform them that there will no cash for them in the next elections unless they pretend to create equality across classes without actually accomplishing anything. This scheme leaves the tycoons sitting on a mile-high pot of gold with minimum taxes. There's more money to be got from them than from the pocket of a yungerman.
Hey, I bet these guys are financing the anti-reform protests in Israel to keep people's minds off the real problem.
" anything the chareidim "steal" is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of running the country". And that makes it kosher? Count me out of that club. This is not the morality that I learned in yeshiva.
He wrote *steal* in quotes so as not to concede his belief in it. If so, it is kosher. It's good old politics. Again kosher.
The Coming Economic Crash Caused By Chareidi Purchase of Black Hats
The irresponsible spending habits of the chareidi community threaten to bring the economy to its knees. Mountains of research and statistics show that they spend an inordinate amount of money on black hats, draining funds from more productive economic sectors.
Rambam in Hilchos Deos writes that one should pursue an occupation that brings economic benefit to society (1:7). Black hat making clearly does not fulfill this requirement, and thus chareidim who buy these hats are violating the Rambam! The Gemara in Bava Basra (8b) warns against excessive consumption that depletes communal resources, yet the chareidim continue unabated in their hat purchasing.
A 2016 study found that the chareidi community in Israel spends over 500 million shekels annually on black hats (Herzog, 2016). Much of this money comes from government subsidies and charity intended for necessities. But the chareidim fritter this money away on what Jonathan Haidt would call "conspicuous consumption" to signal their group identity (The Happiness Hypothesis, 2006).
If this irresponsible behavior continues, it threatens to topple the entire Israeli economy. Black hat manufacturing employs few people and produces little tangible economic value. In contrast, that same 500 million shekels could create thousands of high-tech jobs and spur innovation if invested properly. But the chareidi "leech mentality," to borrow a phrase from Richard Dawkins (The Selfish Gene, 2006), prioritizes meaningless symbols over economic growth.
The solution is clear: the chareidi community must reduce their purchase of and spending on black hats in order to avoid an impending economic crash. They must learn to live more modestly and invest their funds in sectors that actually improve people's lives. Until that happens, the chareidi economy of hats will continue growing at the expense of a productive economy that benefits all of Israeli society.
ChatGPT?
maybe smaller black hats?
Dear Dovid Dov,
Your proposal of "smaller hats" reveals a mindboggling degree of economic illiteracy combined with religious zealotry and imperviousness to reason.
You show no awareness of basic phenomena like "escalation of commitment" wherein consumers anchored to a price point come to desire larger products (Kahneman et al. 1992; Whyte 1993). Despite the Rishonim's rejection of black hats as foreign (Shapiro 2005), your community insanely adopted them as an identity marker (Harris 2004; Atran & Henrich 2010) - typical of religious fundamentalists impervious to evidence.
Your arguments rely on wrenching quotes out of context to “proof-text” your dogma - a hallmark of "fundamentalist economics" with disastrous outcomes (Coyne & Barskey 2004; Salzman 2008). You utterly fail to consider opportunity costs imposed on Israeli taxpayers by chareidi consumption - showing the "tribal thinking" and inability to see outsiders inherent in fundamentalist societies (Iannaccone & Berman 2006; Posener-Sterba 2015).
"Smaller hats" will only exacerbate "escalation of commitment" to ever-larger symbolic status goods within your religio-social complex (Berman 2000; Hechter 1987; Sosis 2003).
Genuine reform would require subjecting chareidi economic practices to welfare economics principles that minimize harm and maximize opportunities - as espoused by Geiger (1912) and advocates of "enlightened religion" unafraid to critique sacred tradition.
Your "smaller hats" idiocy betrays insular thinking impervious to economic reason and a willingness to twist Torah rather than critically examine it (Hillel Avot 1:14). Until these flaws are addressed, chareidim will remain an economically illiterate, rationally stunted, ethically dubious burden on Israeli society incapable of positive contribution.
Dear Jake, your proposition of "smaller hats" has ignited a fiery debate akin to the clash of lightsabers in the Star Wars universe. However, it seems that your economic analysis and religious fervor are reminiscent of a peculiar blend found in the works of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao Zedong, and even the Quran.
As we delve into the depths of science and reason, let us consider the phenomenon of "escalation of commitment," reminiscent of how Doctor Strange's journey unfolded, where consumers anchored to a certain price point tend to desire larger symbolic items. This psychological aspect, illuminated by Kahneman, Whyte, and the force of behavioral economics, sheds light on our patterns of consumption.
While the Rishonim's rejection of black hats as foreign elements adds an intriguing twist to the narrative, it appears that your community's adoption of them as an identity marker aligns with the complexities observed in cultural anthropology, as illuminated by Harris, Atran, and the intersections of faith and identity.
Yet, we must be cautious when quoting selectively and proof-texting, for it is akin to wielding the One Ring in the realm of economics. Fundamentalist approaches, as Coyne, Barskey, Salzman, and the echoes of Gollum warn, can lead to disastrous outcomes. To foster a holistic perspective, we ought to consider the opportunity costs imposed on Israeli taxpayers and explore the insights of Iannaccone, Berman, Posener-Sterba, and the dance between economics and tribal thinking.
However, be aware that embracing "smaller hats" might not quell the flames of commitment escalation. As Berman, Hechter, and Sosis would caution, it may merely intensify the desire for even larger symbolic status goods within your religio-social complex.
If genuine reform is sought, perhaps it is through the lens of "enlightened religion" and the principles of welfare economics that Geiger advocated, as we seek to harmonize tradition, ethics, and pragmatic considerations. In doing so, we embody the spirit of critical examination, for, as Hillel wisely remarked, "If I am not for myself, who will be for me?"
As Albert Einstein reminded us, "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." Let us harness our collective imagination to explore innovative solutions that bridge the gaps between economic perspectives and religious identities.
In the quest for justice, Martin Luther King Jr. eloquently proclaimed, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." This principle compels us to consider the broader implications of our economic choices, ensuring fairness and inclusivity for all.
Aristotle, the ancient philosopher, enlightened us with the notion that "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." By embracing a holistic approach to economic reform, we can foster synergies and cultivate a society where diverse perspectives thrive.
Benjamin Disraeli, with his eloquence, once asserted, "The most successful men in the end are those whose success is the result of steady accretion." Through gradual progress and sustainable economic practices, we can create a foundation for long-term prosperity.
And in the words of Joe Biden, "We must remember that unity is not a pie-in-the-sky dream." Let us strive for unity in our discussions, bridging divides and finding common ground to address the economic challenges faced by our societies.
With the wisdom of these great thinkers and leaders, let us embark on a path of intellectual exploration and constructive dialogue. By combining imagination, justice, holistic thinking, steady progress, and unity, we can unlock the potential for positive change and a more harmonious society.
Q. What does "charedi economics" have in common with "the low Jewish birth rate", "the high world birth rate", "the coming ice age", "global warming", "teenage brainwashing", "the melting of the icebergs" "Star Wars" and "the coming nuclear holocaust"?
A. All problems we ware warned about that never amounted to anything.
... Until they explode in our face and people like you start saying: 'We knew it from the beginning.
They are already exploding
Sayeth Todd.
Sayeth the data with no realistic possibility of a doubt at this point. If toyreh and your hereditary Popes require you to deny the facts they are wrong
Odd Todd
No problem. Cite the sources.
You want sources? Easy - somebody writes a blog, which gets "cited" by some Soros-funded Wikipedia activist (under official policy never to write anything that upsets official race and gender dogma police), which then gets cited back by the original source, and now it's official. That's how you launder "facts" in the modern age. And there's always people like our friend Todd here willing to believe it.
(Shouldn't be a surprise. On this very blog we've seen how people can "cite" and link to their OWN WEBSITE as a "source".)
Cept that the "coming ice age" was oil company propaganda to spread doubt about global warming which is very, very real and happening now. World population is billions higher than we can sustain.if nuclear war happens, and with DPRK, Iran, and increasingly unstable Russia it is a real risk we are all hosed, and disinformation is now a s ience.
But keep mumbling your magical spells and regurgitating blaat on command. It will surely fix all that
"....Active effort is needed.
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"We also can't wait for the מחללי שבת to transgress yet another week! That is far more dire than some supposed economic crisis."
- Happy (2012?-2023)
We're talking about Chareidim in dire financial straits. The scenario already played out in Jewish history where Chareidim or their children give up on religion chas vchallila. They will feel betrayed and resentful. That scenario is already being played out.
Right. That's why all the modox guys are going off the derech in droves, compared to the much smaller rate of kids going off the derech in the Chareidi world. Figured so.
You naive fool. Modox accepts different levels of observance in their different educational institutions. While your criteria begins and ends with black hats and mindless conformity.
Modox saves many souls. We're talking about apples and oranges. OTD is unfortunately alive and well in Chareidi society. Modox is trying to raise devoted religious Jews who can deal with the world while the Chareidim advise to run and hide.The Getter Rebbe has established places to stay and/or eat for those who are OTD. Obviously the OTD problem is not negligible.
You blustering moron. You said that Chareidim being poor will cause their children to leave religion. Well, guess what. Isreali Chareidim have been poor for generations, yet according to Arutz-7 survey, only around 4% of their children leave the path. Compare that to the modox world, where according to the same survey, the number is between 30%-40%.
Are you suggesting that the kefirah is primarily coming from chareidism??
Of course not. Economic pressures when extreme can force change in religious commitment. In Europe the Jews suffered from antisemitism and prejudice. Seeking a way out they sought gentile approval and opportunity by abandoning their religious commitment.
A better way to force change in religious commitment is to not be that committed to begin with!😬
Reform seemed attractive to them while allowing them too assimilate into mainstream gentile culture.
"*too* assimilate"? Did you go to a Chareidi cheder?
Wise ass it's what is called aטעות סופר.
Current Chareidim got wise from being burned 200 years ago and realize to stay away from that which did them in then. (Not that there aren't new challenges.)
Right! The world today is very challenging to religious observance. I don't see Chareidim coping with it. Close your mind and hide is the general response.
(As I requested from others, please don't reply to yourself, lest the comments continue on the next page eventually. Rather, edit your first comment and cordon off that which is new with something like this:
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EDIT...)
wow! you really assume they'll want to change anything! sorta like people who say "if chazal were around these days they would change xyz"
I can tell that this argument is not LeShem Shamayim. You aren’t being honest with me or yourself.
In my experience and the experience of many others these programs are extremely effective for a substantial segment of the population. I wrote earlier that these programs start out very basic and teach the fundamentals extremely well, so that they will understand the more advanced concepts to a greater extent. Most of them are of average intelligence. Again, What I meant with the word smart was that I posit that the, contrary to popular belief, I believe that the average haredi individual is smarter than the average secular Israeli due to the lack of distractions in their world.
The gist of my comment does not imply that it only benefits the very talented. Read again.
I merely said I sat in classes, and didn’t speak about others. Neither did I “audit” them. Why would you jump to that being what many do?
In terms of earning a living, if you would have read my comment, you’d see that I wrote that corporations are looking for quality labor, Anna at a slight discount, and after graduation the plan is that they will be employed. That’s the plan.
I’m still waiting for you to give me the dropout rate of secular colleges, the success rate of those who graduate to land their ideal job, and what less intelligent secular Israelis do to make a living? ?
The correlation between education and income is just that, a correlation. The real causal relationship is that between delaying instant gratification and income, as seen in the working Chevra in Lakewood and 5 towns. Lots of financial success with minimal advanced education. Only clueless academics still beleive in education as the sole means to earn an income.
You are confusing 'advanced education' with 'education' in the same paragrapg You cannot compare the education that was given to the typical 'working chevra in Lakewood and the 5 towns' to the situation in Israel.
I live in Lakewood. You have no clue what you're talking about. The vast majority "working chevra in Lakewood" do not have any advanced degree at all. Many don't even have a high school diploma.
Most of them learnt maths beyond the standard of a nine year old. Unlike their Israliei cousins where limudei chol generally stops at age 9/10.
I have a pircha from American chasidim who are very successful if they choose to be.
In many cases - more than people realize - this is because they are skilled at extracting money from non-Jews.
Is it just me or did Slifkin pull this one straight out of de sturmer?
What an anti-Semite. How many business dealings do you have with American chassidim?? Bigot.
You are not speaking from any real experience or insight, just repeating Modox dogma (a dogma i grew up with as well.) Overwhelming majority of successful chassidish businesses are just that - successful businesses.
I know a small percentage of people like what you are describing but I know a rather large, large percentage of very honest and fair and VERY successful chassidishe business owners. Please don't slander! Turns out Lashon Hara, especially false, is *actually an Aveira*, Benjamin Brown non-withstanding, במחילת כבודו, if you get the reference. And if you wish to, though I don't endorse any of it, stick to your own Israeli propaganda (which at least you must think has some תועלת).
I don't like being sharp but I even more don't like שנאת חנם כפשוטו, which is spread by these sorts of unnecessary comments.
_____________________________
EDIT - (reference - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/when-lashon-hara-is-mitzvah)
I receive emails from people in New York telling me about all kinds of schemes to defraud both individuals and government. Do you know about the Covid scheme that got 3 billion dollars?
"I receive emails from people in New York telling me about all kinds of schemes..."
NS, if you were on different email lists, getting information from different people, you would have a completely different view of things. And there, in a nutshell, is why the world looks so completely different to different people.
This is utterly hilarious. I literally work in Williamsburg every day. I have constant communications and interactions with that world.
I think you've overstating how much Pfizer made, but they made enough.
I had no idea what you were referring to, so I googled 'Covid scheme that got 3 billion dollars.' This is what came up:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/six-indicted-scheme-defrauded-pandemic-relief-programs-more-3-million
"A wide ranging fraud scheme, led by 29-year-old Paradise Williams, of Phoenix, was detailed today in a 26-count indictment charging wire fraud and money laundering....
In addition to Williams the grand jury indicted:
Rayvon Darnell Peterson, 32, of Seattle, Washington
Tia Janee Robinson, 28, of Fife, Washington
Jahari Asad Cunningham, 45, of Houston, Texas
D’arius Akim Jackson, 37, Bonney Lake, Washington
David Jesus Martinez, 32, Pacific, Washington
......
According to the indictment the money was used for luxury cars, lavish trips, designer clothes, jewelry, and even plastic surgery. Williams used over $90,000 in cash and wire transferred funds, from the proceeds and kickbacks she received, to buy a 2018 Range Rover sport utility vehicle and a 2017 Lexus ES Sedan. Both vehicles were seized in Phoenix on Monday. In June 2021, Williams used funds from the frauds to travel to Miami and while there she rented a Lamborghini."
====
Clearly a bunch of chassidim.
By the way, any comment on the insanity currently convulsing your country? https://www.timesofisrael.com/overhaul-opponents-plan-protest-next-week-such-as-has-never-been-seen/ Or you're too busy writing yet another screed about how charedim are uncivilized grifters? https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism/comment/18166274
Not about that particular one, but I know about many others, and as I said, the problem really exists, but on a smaller scale relatively. People should talk about them even, it's 100% לתועלת and we don't protect crooks. The only issue I had with your statement was the broad stroke you brushed it with, as if that's what 'they' do. It's not. I know a modox individual who scammed hundreds of people (he tried to scam me as well, bH I'm a bit wiser to not fall for the "more than 7% growth rate"), but I see it in no way as a reflection of his community, that's all.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism/comments#comment-18158084
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-equalizer
"Anti-rationalists cannot tolerate open discussion, because it exposes them as being mistaken/ dishonest. Fortunately, the internet is the great equalizer, and enables me to expose this on my own website."
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https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism/comment/18129583
"Leib Shachar
17 hr ago
Well presented, I am just wondering why you didn't post this on RJ itself, only saying there that no-one knows anything (not that I don't agree with that)."
Happy
8 hr ago
Author
"Haha, I was banned last week!"
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QED
Natan, we all know that you banned HGL because he consistently made you look like a doofus.
That post from DNS (The Equalizer) is actually really important! These are really difficult discussions with complex material and one needs to know how to listen, and I mean *really listen* to the other side to be able to respond properly, otherwise everyone is just talking over each other, which is usually what happens in these discussions. Slifkin never really heard our side (althoug some have tried), and many on our side never really heard his. As (almost) always, the truth is somewhere in between, although (of course I think) it is much closer to us. I would love to have a discussion where we can each explain ourselves, but for now I am sufficing with my new blog: https://rationalistjudaism2.substack.com/
The Baalei Yesurim, who I join in their pain, have joined together.
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Where are the statistics? What got the wealthiest Israeli Chareidim their wealth? Was it education?
In other news, one of the largest Kollelim in the world received a private donation of $50M this month.
"What got the wealthiest Israeli Chareidim their wealth"
Are you attempting to prove something from a random question? Classic.
המקום ינחם אותך
That's true. There is indeed a distinction between American "yeshivahleit" and Israeli Charedim. But NS is totally unaware of it, and lumps them all together (bc, you know, you've seen one black hatted Jew you've seen them all, right?)
Moreover, the primary distinguishing factor is, of course, the army. And everyone knows the issues, and no one has come up with a "Gee, I never thought of that!" angle that a million other Jews haven't already said either. That's why people who write about it as though THEY have something fresh to say about it are either arrogant or ignorant or naive in the extreme, and often all three together.
Remmber in Israel generally Chareidim don't have a high school education! That alone is a significant difference from Chareidim in the US.
Not sure how much of a difference that makes, especially given what education in the US looks like. But its moot - I agree with you overall, they are very different.
Another soldier was killed when he and other chayalim stopped a suspected terrorist. He just nay have saved the lives of other Jews.
I know the Mi Shebairach Lachayalim is not said in chareidi yeshivot or chareidi shuls. But why not a Kapittal Tehillim asking Hashem to protect chayalim?!
There are many charedim who support individual chayalim privately in all sorts of ways. But one has to be fair - to formalize a shul tefilah is tantamount to recognizing something as an official institution, akin to the government. And the establishment of an avowedly non-religious government in Eretz YiIsroel is by no means universally agreed to or supported.
ה' ינקום דמו, וישמור כל חיילי צה"ל, אכיה"ר.
"But one has to be fair - to formalize a shul tefilah is tantamount to recognizing something as an official institution, akin to the government."
The מי שברך לחיילים is preceded by the מי שברך למדינת ישראל. So saying the מי שברך לחיילים and not מי שברך למדינת ישראל would be non-recognition of the State. Davening for the soldiers only while ignoring the government itself, would be a clear non-recognition of the government while praying for those who R' Aryeh Levin called מלאכים. Not saying either, reflects either indifference or a highly conservative attitude towards changing the procedure in the בית כנסת.
In any case, there is a tough dilemma in much of the normal חרדי world. There is implicit support for the people who put their lives on the line for the defense of the nation. But they haven't figured out to express that support in a formal way. I suspect any solution would cause the goon squad to overreact and declare any such innovation as heresy.
And so the חרדי world is viewed (with only partial justification) as being indifferent. (It doesn't help that חרדי spokespeople malign soldiers with false accusation of holding a כוחי ועוצם ידי attitude.) The חרדי world should come up with their own way of expressing concern for the security of the nation and ignore the goon squad.
I am aware of the dilemna of a charedi shul or yeshiva saying some type a Tefilla of some sort for the IDF.
But it is also a religious dilemma. I am sure no chareidi wants to see the IDF fail and Jews are killed. By not turning and asking Hashem for help to protect each soldier, and for the success of missions is like refusing to ask Hashem to help guide the hands of a surgeon.
שבת שלום
An IDF soldier was killed as the IDF was leaving Jenin. Yet the chareidi yeshivot still won’t say the Mi Shebairach for Hayalim, not even a Kapital Tehillim asking Hashem to protect our soldiers.
"many people suggest that it will ultimately resolve itself." We may be very unhappy with the resolution.
Even if the crisis is in the future (and I don't agree that it is) the solution must be now. Tomorrow is too late.