Constant economic propping up of Chareidi society will cause diversion of essential funds for essential public services for the Chareidim. So the state doesn't collapse and the Chareidim starve it still causes damage to the general public and unfairly shifts the tax burden to rest or the general public. WHY? אם לא עכשיו אימתי?!.
Yet the chareidi rabbis insist on absurd passages like "one who increases his participation in Torah study, G-d will increase his sustenance"
See RCK in his DE. I'll post it later when I have the time. Right now, I'll simply state that the classic Torah sources tell us that such sustenance does not involve being a burden on the community. As such the passage is not absurd, but has been misused and abused.
Who has the search skills to look in the RJ archives (of the old format that includes the comments) from some years back where a commenter says of the Chareidy economic apocalypse that we should be "screaming/shouting from the rooftops" about it cause it's the most important concern?
Huh? Takes two to tango. You can't have a whole blog devoted to besmirching and demonizing the Charedi community, and then cry about malbin p'nei chaveiro when they come fight back. Sorry, snowflake tiere.
The Israeli economy is booming, many countries are talking of introducing four day working weeks and providing stipends to non-working people, and ChatGPT will soon make millions of Israeli jobs redundant. Think secretaries, accountants, writers, editors, teachers, even soldiers and officers. A drone with an artificial brain will go out to do the dirty work. If we don't destroy ourselves first, the West will become a leisure society where people will either pick jobs they like, party, or learn Torah.
Nothing to worry about.
Even now, how come people still have to work like slaves when one machine can do the work of a thousand or a million men? To pay for a myriad of artificial needs such as films, literature, art, Biblical museums :-), trips to resorts places locals regard as gehinom, etc. If the scales fell from people's eyes they would stop wasting their energies on work and enjoy life.
Regarding increased taxes, anything the chareidim "steal" is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of running the country. Also, the real culprit of rising costs and taxes are billionaires who have a cunning strategy in the world's so-called "democracies."
It works like this:
Step 1. Pay for the political campaigns of all parties likely to win.
Step 2. Having bribed the democratically chosen parties, inform them that there will no cash for them in the next elections unless they pretend to create equality across classes without actually accomplishing anything. This scheme leaves the tycoons sitting on a mile-high pot of gold with minimum taxes. There's more money to be got from them than from the pocket of a yungerman.
Hey, I bet these guys are financing the anti-reform protests in Israel to keep people's minds off the real problem.
" anything the chareidim "steal" is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of running the country". And that makes it kosher? Count me out of that club. This is not the morality that I learned in yeshiva.
Q. What does "charedi economics" have in common with "the low Jewish birth rate", "the high world birth rate", "the coming ice age", "global warming", "teenage brainwashing", "the melting of the icebergs" "Star Wars" and "the coming nuclear holocaust"?
A. All problems we ware warned about that never amounted to anything.
Sayeth the data with no realistic possibility of a doubt at this point. If toyreh and your hereditary Popes require you to deny the facts they are wrong
Cept that the "coming ice age" was oil company propaganda to spread doubt about global warming which is very, very real and happening now. World population is billions higher than we can sustain.if nuclear war happens, and with DPRK, Iran, and increasingly unstable Russia it is a real risk we are all hosed, and disinformation is now a s ience.
But keep mumbling your magical spells and regurgitating blaat on command. It will surely fix all that
We're talking about Chareidim in dire financial straits. The scenario already played out in Jewish history where Chareidim or their children give up on religion chas vchallila. They will feel betrayed and resentful. That scenario is already being played out.
Of course not. Economic pressures when extreme can force change in religious commitment. In Europe the Jews suffered from antisemitism and prejudice. Seeking a way out they sought gentile approval and opportunity by abandoning their religious commitment.
You naive fool. Modox accepts different levels of observance in their different educational institutions. While your criteria begins and ends with black hats and mindless conformity.
Modox saves many souls. We're talking about apples and oranges. OTD is unfortunately alive and well in Chareidi society. Modox is trying to raise devoted religious Jews who can deal with the world while the Chareidim advise to run and hide.The Getter Rebbe has established places to stay and/or eat for those who are OTD. Obviously the OTD problem is not negligible.
I can tell that this argument is not LeShem Shamayim. You aren’t being honest with me or yourself.
In my experience and the experience of many others these programs are extremely effective for a substantial segment of the population. I wrote earlier that these programs start out very basic and teach the fundamentals extremely well, so that they will understand the more advanced concepts to a greater extent. Most of them are of average intelligence. Again, What I meant with the word smart was that I posit that the, contrary to popular belief, I believe that the average haredi individual is smarter than the average secular Israeli due to the lack of distractions in their world.
The gist of my comment does not imply that it only benefits the very talented. Read again.
I merely said I sat in classes, and didn’t speak about others. Neither did I “audit” them. Why would you jump to that being what many do?
In terms of earning a living, if you would have read my comment, you’d see that I wrote that corporations are looking for quality labor, Anna at a slight discount, and after graduation the plan is that they will be employed. That’s the plan.
I’m still waiting for you to give me the dropout rate of secular colleges, the success rate of those who graduate to land their ideal job, and what less intelligent secular Israelis do to make a living? ?
The correlation between education and income is just that, a correlation. The real causal relationship is that between delaying instant gratification and income, as seen in the working Chevra in Lakewood and 5 towns. Lots of financial success with minimal advanced education. Only clueless academics still beleive in education as the sole means to earn an income.
You are confusing 'advanced education' with 'education' in the same paragrapg You cannot compare the education that was given to the typical 'working chevra in Lakewood and the 5 towns' to the situation in Israel.
I live in Lakewood. You have no clue what you're talking about. The vast majority "working chevra in Lakewood" do not have any advanced degree at all. Many don't even have a high school diploma.
You are not speaking from any real experience or insight, just repeating Modox dogma (a dogma i grew up with as well.) Overwhelming majority of successful chassidish businesses are just that - successful businesses.
I know a small percentage of people like what you are describing but I know a rather large, large percentage of very honest and fair and VERY successful chassidishe business owners. Please don't slander! Turns out Lashon Hara, especially false, is *actually an Aveira*, Benjamin Brown non-withstanding, במחילת כבודו, if you get the reference. And if you wish to, though I don't endorse any of it, stick to your own Israeli propaganda (which at least you must think has some תועלת).
I don't like being sharp but I even more don't like שנאת חנם כפשוטו, which is spread by these sorts of unnecessary comments.
That's true. There is indeed a distinction between American "yeshivahleit" and Israeli Charedim. But NS is totally unaware of it, and lumps them all together (bc, you know, you've seen one black hatted Jew you've seen them all, right?)
Moreover, the primary distinguishing factor is, of course, the army. And everyone knows the issues, and no one has come up with a "Gee, I never thought of that!" angle that a million other Jews haven't already said either. That's why people who write about it as though THEY have something fresh to say about it are either arrogant or ignorant or naive in the extreme, and often all three together.
Not sure how much of a difference that makes, especially given what education in the US looks like. But its moot - I agree with you overall, they are very different.
Another soldier was killed when he and other chayalim stopped a suspected terrorist. He just nay have saved the lives of other Jews.
I know the Mi Shebairach Lachayalim is not said in chareidi yeshivot or chareidi shuls. But why not a Kapittal Tehillim asking Hashem to protect chayalim?!
There are many charedim who support individual chayalim privately in all sorts of ways. But one has to be fair - to formalize a shul tefilah is tantamount to recognizing something as an official institution, akin to the government. And the establishment of an avowedly non-religious government in Eretz YiIsroel is by no means universally agreed to or supported.
"But one has to be fair - to formalize a shul tefilah is tantamount to recognizing something as an official institution, akin to the government."
The מי שברך לחיילים is preceded by the מי שברך למדינת ישראל. So saying the מי שברך לחיילים and not מי שברך למדינת ישראל would be non-recognition of the State. Davening for the soldiers only while ignoring the government itself, would be a clear non-recognition of the government while praying for those who R' Aryeh Levin called מלאכים. Not saying either, reflects either indifference or a highly conservative attitude towards changing the procedure in the בית כנסת.
In any case, there is a tough dilemma in much of the normal חרדי world. There is implicit support for the people who put their lives on the line for the defense of the nation. But they haven't figured out to express that support in a formal way. I suspect any solution would cause the goon squad to overreact and declare any such innovation as heresy.
And so the חרדי world is viewed (with only partial justification) as being indifferent. (It doesn't help that חרדי spokespeople malign soldiers with false accusation of holding a כוחי ועוצם ידי attitude.) The חרדי world should come up with their own way of expressing concern for the security of the nation and ignore the goon squad.
I am aware of the dilemna of a charedi shul or yeshiva saying some type a Tefilla of some sort for the IDF.
But it is also a religious dilemma. I am sure no chareidi wants to see the IDF fail and Jews are killed. By not turning and asking Hashem for help to protect each soldier, and for the success of missions is like refusing to ask Hashem to help guide the hands of a surgeon.
An IDF soldier was killed as the IDF was leaving Jenin. Yet the chareidi yeshivot still won’t say the Mi Shebairach for Hayalim, not even a Kapital Tehillim asking Hashem to protect our soldiers.
Historically, during periods when donations from abroad were scarce, the population in Israel was starving, disease-ridden, and dirt poor. Hmmm... funny how that works.
I have been living in bnei brak for several months and many job preparation courses exist for kollel guys like MeGo, and JBH, one has close to a thousand enrolled in Haifa, BB, Jerusalem, Ashdod, and other cities, and the other in BB from Elad. I personally know people and have attended for fun, certian classes in these programs and they have less than a 5% drop out rate. I wouldn’t underestimate the ability for a smart, Torah learning Jew to integrate as many of these guys are smart, despite having to take care of a wife and several children. The wife also works. Soon, there will be a large influx of charedim in the hitech workforce as they already realized you need to work for a good living.
" I personally know people and have attended for fun, certian classes in these programs and they have less than a 5% drop out rate. "
Unclear. What do you mean "for fun"? Aren't these programs subsidized for the purpose of earning a living? Isn't taking such classes for fun, and not for their purpose a little unethical? What are these "certain classes"? Just the ones that are taken for fun? Or just the ones with low dropout? Or both?
" I wouldn’t underestimate the ability for a smart..."
Sorry for the confusion. I specifically went in to learn something, not part of the program but the rest of them were and are enrolled for 16 months or longer. Lol, is it unethical to sit in a class for fun? I dont know, and I dont think anyone else would be asking that. Ive also sat in classes I wasnt enrolled in at various universities so maybe I’m going to gehinom. Id also usually get the explicit permission from the teachers, and even when certain teachers that I have not notified found out , they were flattered, welcoming and happy I joined. Id sometimes cooperate more than most enrolled classmates. Besides the whole זה נהנה וזה אינו חסר, I would say your criticism of me sitting in classes voluntarily as an “unethical” choice as a strong indication that you are not being intellectually honest in your response. You are biased and won’t look at facts, and would prefer to poke moral holes in my persona so as to derail a perfectly sound argument.
What I meant to say with the word smart, was that, in my experience, most charedim are intelligent. In stark contrast to modox jews, they dont spend inordinate amounts of time on Netflix, youtube, the movie theater, or playing games on their phones. Additionally, the classes in these courses are very easy at the beginning and are well staffed. They are very strict in making sure all enrolled are physically at the college every day, and actively learning. They have great lecturers who teach everything from the fundamentals to the advanced. So, while you dont have to be that smart to excel in these courses, you have to work hard consistently. And, let’s be honest, how many idiotic graduates do we have to see and hear about from both sides of the political spectrum to rule out a degree as being the only arbiter of intellectual capability.
This is my first ever comment on R Slifkins forum, and I agree with 90% ( dont count exactly) of what he says. I merely made the comment that I wouldnt underestimate the charedi communitys community to at least partially do well financially as something of a small dissent to a minor view of his about the charedi community as a whole and I get this annoyingly, low hitting, intellectually dishonest response??
It is people like you that respond to my comments that make me regret I ever posted in the first place. Maybe youre happy with that, because of your hate for charedim as opposed to honestly caring about the community and being concerned for its survival and growth.
I concede this you are correct. However the חשש of whether it is ethical to sit in a class was imho way over the line of moral questionability, if thats a word.
" Lol, is it unethical to sit in a class for fun?"
No need to get snippy. You weren't clear and I asked for clarification. If these programs are being subsidized for helping students get a better career, and the program is being abused by people who have no interest in developing a career- than yes it's unethical.
"Ive also sat in classes I wasnt enrolled in at various universities so maybe I’m going to gehinom."
Auditing a class is not a problem. I was referring to people who enter the program without any interest in further their career.
" in my experience, most charedim are intelligent."
So you hang out with smart people. What about those people you don't hang out with? Should their education be limited to the high pressures of studying for a career starting in their later 20s, early 30s?
"they dont spend inordinate amounts of time on Netflix, youtube, the movie theater, or playing games on their phones."
It would profit society tremendously if people in general limit their time on nonsense.
"And, let’s be honest, how many idiotic graduates do we have to see and hear about from both sides of the political spectrum to rule out a degree as being the only arbiter of intellectual capability. "
Indeed. Degrees are only a certificate of potential. They at best indicate the starting point of the holder's knowledge. But since you've got to start somewhere, the degree is a useful metric to determine the base point of someone's knowledge and ability.
As far as the rest of your comment, there are two basic questions: What is the actual success rate of these educational programs? And what percentage of the post-kollel population are not fit for these programs and are not served by some other scheme? My point is that these programs are being presented as the solution for the problem. But are they an effective solution?
Id start with a Mishna in Avot. שבעה בגולם שבעה בחכם.
The Golem talks about the more important thing, last, and the miniscule first, while the Hacham chose to speak about the important thing, first and the less important last. You hang on to each word “smart charedim” when the issue of non intelligent people exists across the board, even amongst secular israelis. You question my personal moral veracity since I decided to “sit in a class”. Only after all of this nonsense do you deal with the topic at hand - the fact that charedim all across the state of Israel are learning to bolster their career and get better jobs. You can look up Mego, Jbh, and other programs for yourself and visit bnei brak and those programs if you so wish. I’m sure the heads of those programs will be fine with you sitting in a class as I know many of them personally. All I said was that I wouldn’t underestimate their capability to integrate into the workforce.
I don’t know the success rate of these programs, but I hear that it is higher than colleges and degrees, since certain corporations pay these programs to tailor make their learning structure for those positions like IT and so on, whereas college grads expect a much higher salary than their charedi counterparts. איזהו עשיר השמח בחלקו ironically applies here somewhat literally.
“Post kollel population that aren’t a fit for these programs” I don’t know and I don’t claim to have the answer for that’s part of the population. All I said was that I wouldn’t underestimate these programs. I could ask that same question for secular Israelis that don’t fit in the college curriculum. There are many other jobs and businesses that don’t require too much intellectual ability. But again that’s not the Ikar of what I said.
Are they an effective solution? Well, one program opened a year and a half ago, and they have close to 300 in total graduating by the end of this year, with a less than 5% drop out rate. So far, do you consider that effective? Do you think that’s not at least helping?
תפסת מרובה לא תפסת you can’t expect to find a solution that will help 100% of the population and for every demographic. Certain things take time and success breeds success.
All I said is that I don’t think it is accurate to say that this problem is almost unsolvable, and with respect to R Slifkin, the dropout rate is nowhere near 50%.
I’m sure you can see how that could rub me the wrong way. Everything is debatable. But if you’re intellectually honest, would you really consider, sitting in any class whatsoever, even not for the purpose of furthering one’s career but because the person is curious about the subject and/or college, you, and not any rabbi, or anyone would consider that “unethical”. Not reasonable and if you’re honest with yourself, not acceptable to criticize someone else as doing. That attack disguised as an question, is really against something I sense you don’t like to hear about- charedi success, essentially invalidates much of what you say afterwards. I dont think that sitting for fun in a subsidized class is “abuse of the system”, no more than I think that sitting in a University class that is paid both by the gov and by students is “abuse”.
I already said that a degree can be an indication of someone’s intellect.
What percentage of those who enroll in secular colleges drop out? Are colleges in Israel such a great solution for secular Israelis? I personally went to bar Ilan and know those who got a degree and went right back to their day jobs. A flight attendant at El Al with two degrees, and a construction worker amongst many others. There are numerous that can’t afford a second degree, which has become a baseline to get a high paying job. What about less smart secular Israeli Jews? I personally know many of them that struggle, despite working all day as delivery men and in the menial job workforce.
By the way at Bar Ilan there are charedi business management tracks, at the Open University, and at ORT. The main thing is that they separate between men and women. I went out with a girl who works for the Israeli tax authority as a cpa, and who started studying computer science at the open university full time, and attended Lustig, a charedi girls college. Mivchar also exists for girls and I hear its pretty good. Limudei teuda for charedi women, graphic design and architecture. היישוב is an elementary school (as opposed to cheider) is a good charedi option for kids to learn english and math. I roomed with a charedi guy from petah tikva and he was working in and studying medicine at the open university. Its very simple. These programs are good and effective. Not all though I’m not sure. But the basic understanding is that if a charedi guy or gal wants to succeed, they do have options and the abilities to. Its not the same for other segments of the population for sure, but the solutions exist. I dont know if it exists for every part of the charedi community though I hope it does or will be.
All I said were two things: don’t underestimate these programs and the charedims ability to integrate and succeed in the workforce, and the drop out rate the R Slifkin wrote is unfortunately not completely accurate.
I never said that it is ideal for charedim to start studying later on in life, though it’s better than nothing.
I just found out my neighbor is a chussid who wears a streimel, and I learned that he studies IT at night and works during the day. He makes pretty good money…
From the outside things may seem very different, just like if you watch news about what goes on in israel, it feels very different when you are living there, so too bnei brak. Living in tel aviv for a short time as well, I got to know a large amount of religious people, meals, classes from charedi to dati leumi, and to (the unfortunate) dati light. You never know.
"he’s in his thirties or forties or fifties, in a dire financial situation, with numerous children. At that point, he simply doesn’t have the luxury of spending years catching up on a missed secular education and studying for a career that pays a meaningful salary"
Well, he doesn't need to
He can just import hundreds of packets of cigarettes instead
Hey, no fair! You can't try and rebut Happynomics when Happy is banned.
See HGL's rebuttal here:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism
Constant economic propping up of Chareidi society will cause diversion of essential funds for essential public services for the Chareidim. So the state doesn't collapse and the Chareidim starve it still causes damage to the general public and unfairly shifts the tax burden to rest or the general public. WHY? אם לא עכשיו אימתי?!.
Happynomics has a nice ring to it.
Yet the chareidi rabbis insist on absurd passages like "one who increases his participation in Torah study, G-d will increase his sustenance"
See RCK in his DE. I'll post it later when I have the time. Right now, I'll simply state that the classic Torah sources tell us that such sustenance does not involve being a burden on the community. As such the passage is not absurd, but has been misused and abused.
"Help, help, the sky is falling!!"...
I'm lovin' it!
Who has the search skills to look in the RJ archives (of the old format that includes the comments) from some years back where a commenter says of the Chareidy economic apocalypse that we should be "screaming/shouting from the rooftops" about it cause it's the most important concern?
The usual responding sarcasm, insults, demonizing but no substance.
Eh, NAPkin?
כל המלבין פני חבירו ברבים אין לו חלק לעולם הבא
Huh? Takes two to tango. You can't have a whole blog devoted to besmirching and demonizing the Charedi community, and then cry about malbin p'nei chaveiro when they come fight back. Sorry, snowflake tiere.
Actually, this entire post is insulting and demonizing with absolutely no substance. See here:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-fallacy-of-economic-catastrophism
The Israeli economy is booming, many countries are talking of introducing four day working weeks and providing stipends to non-working people, and ChatGPT will soon make millions of Israeli jobs redundant. Think secretaries, accountants, writers, editors, teachers, even soldiers and officers. A drone with an artificial brain will go out to do the dirty work. If we don't destroy ourselves first, the West will become a leisure society where people will either pick jobs they like, party, or learn Torah.
Nothing to worry about.
Even now, how come people still have to work like slaves when one machine can do the work of a thousand or a million men? To pay for a myriad of artificial needs such as films, literature, art, Biblical museums :-), trips to resorts places locals regard as gehinom, etc. If the scales fell from people's eyes they would stop wasting their energies on work and enjoy life.
Regarding increased taxes, anything the chareidim "steal" is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of running the country. Also, the real culprit of rising costs and taxes are billionaires who have a cunning strategy in the world's so-called "democracies."
It works like this:
Step 1. Pay for the political campaigns of all parties likely to win.
Step 2. Having bribed the democratically chosen parties, inform them that there will no cash for them in the next elections unless they pretend to create equality across classes without actually accomplishing anything. This scheme leaves the tycoons sitting on a mile-high pot of gold with minimum taxes. There's more money to be got from them than from the pocket of a yungerman.
Hey, I bet these guys are financing the anti-reform protests in Israel to keep people's minds off the real problem.
" anything the chareidim "steal" is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of running the country". And that makes it kosher? Count me out of that club. This is not the morality that I learned in yeshiva.
He wrote *steal* in quotes so as not to concede his belief in it. If so, it is kosher. It's good old politics. Again kosher.
Q. What does "charedi economics" have in common with "the low Jewish birth rate", "the high world birth rate", "the coming ice age", "global warming", "teenage brainwashing", "the melting of the icebergs" "Star Wars" and "the coming nuclear holocaust"?
A. All problems we ware warned about that never amounted to anything.
... Until they explode in our face and people like you start saying: 'We knew it from the beginning.
They are already exploding
Sayeth Todd.
Sayeth the data with no realistic possibility of a doubt at this point. If toyreh and your hereditary Popes require you to deny the facts they are wrong
Cept that the "coming ice age" was oil company propaganda to spread doubt about global warming which is very, very real and happening now. World population is billions higher than we can sustain.if nuclear war happens, and with DPRK, Iran, and increasingly unstable Russia it is a real risk we are all hosed, and disinformation is now a s ience.
But keep mumbling your magical spells and regurgitating blaat on command. It will surely fix all that
"We also can't wait for the מחללי שבת to transgress yet another week! That is far more dire than some supposed economic crisis."
- Happy (2012?-2023)
We're talking about Chareidim in dire financial straits. The scenario already played out in Jewish history where Chareidim or their children give up on religion chas vchallila. They will feel betrayed and resentful. That scenario is already being played out.
Are you suggesting that the kefirah is primarily coming from chareidism??
Of course not. Economic pressures when extreme can force change in religious commitment. In Europe the Jews suffered from antisemitism and prejudice. Seeking a way out they sought gentile approval and opportunity by abandoning their religious commitment.
Reform seemed attractive to them while allowing them too assimilate into mainstream gentile culture.
You naive fool. Modox accepts different levels of observance in their different educational institutions. While your criteria begins and ends with black hats and mindless conformity.
Modox saves many souls. We're talking about apples and oranges. OTD is unfortunately alive and well in Chareidi society. Modox is trying to raise devoted religious Jews who can deal with the world while the Chareidim advise to run and hide.The Getter Rebbe has established places to stay and/or eat for those who are OTD. Obviously the OTD problem is not negligible.
wow! you really assume they'll want to change anything! sorta like people who say "if chazal were around these days they would change xyz"
I can tell that this argument is not LeShem Shamayim. You aren’t being honest with me or yourself.
In my experience and the experience of many others these programs are extremely effective for a substantial segment of the population. I wrote earlier that these programs start out very basic and teach the fundamentals extremely well, so that they will understand the more advanced concepts to a greater extent. Most of them are of average intelligence. Again, What I meant with the word smart was that I posit that the, contrary to popular belief, I believe that the average haredi individual is smarter than the average secular Israeli due to the lack of distractions in their world.
The gist of my comment does not imply that it only benefits the very talented. Read again.
I merely said I sat in classes, and didn’t speak about others. Neither did I “audit” them. Why would you jump to that being what many do?
In terms of earning a living, if you would have read my comment, you’d see that I wrote that corporations are looking for quality labor, Anna at a slight discount, and after graduation the plan is that they will be employed. That’s the plan.
I’m still waiting for you to give me the dropout rate of secular colleges, the success rate of those who graduate to land their ideal job, and what less intelligent secular Israelis do to make a living? ?
The correlation between education and income is just that, a correlation. The real causal relationship is that between delaying instant gratification and income, as seen in the working Chevra in Lakewood and 5 towns. Lots of financial success with minimal advanced education. Only clueless academics still beleive in education as the sole means to earn an income.
You are confusing 'advanced education' with 'education' in the same paragrapg You cannot compare the education that was given to the typical 'working chevra in Lakewood and the 5 towns' to the situation in Israel.
I live in Lakewood. You have no clue what you're talking about. The vast majority "working chevra in Lakewood" do not have any advanced degree at all. Many don't even have a high school diploma.
Most of them learnt maths beyond the standard of a nine year old. Unlike their Israliei cousins where limudei chol generally stops at age 9/10.
I have a pircha from American chasidim who are very successful if they choose to be.
In many cases - more than people realize - this is because they are skilled at extracting money from non-Jews.
What an anti-Semite. How many business dealings do you have with American chassidim?? Bigot.
You are not speaking from any real experience or insight, just repeating Modox dogma (a dogma i grew up with as well.) Overwhelming majority of successful chassidish businesses are just that - successful businesses.
I know a small percentage of people like what you are describing but I know a rather large, large percentage of very honest and fair and VERY successful chassidishe business owners. Please don't slander! Turns out Lashon Hara, especially false, is *actually an Aveira*, Benjamin Brown non-withstanding, במחילת כבודו, if you get the reference. And if you wish to, though I don't endorse any of it, stick to your own Israeli propaganda (which at least you must think has some תועלת).
I don't like being sharp but I even more don't like שנאת חנם כפשוטו, which is spread by these sorts of unnecessary comments.
_____________________________
EDIT - (reference - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/when-lashon-hara-is-mitzvah)
The Baalei Yesurim, who I join in their pain, have joined together.
===
Where are the statistics? What got the wealthiest Israeli Chareidim their wealth? Was it education?
In other news, one of the largest Kollelim in the world received a private donation of $50M this month.
"What got the wealthiest Israeli Chareidim their wealth"
Are you attempting to prove something from a random question? Classic.
המקום ינחם אותך
That's true. There is indeed a distinction between American "yeshivahleit" and Israeli Charedim. But NS is totally unaware of it, and lumps them all together (bc, you know, you've seen one black hatted Jew you've seen them all, right?)
Moreover, the primary distinguishing factor is, of course, the army. And everyone knows the issues, and no one has come up with a "Gee, I never thought of that!" angle that a million other Jews haven't already said either. That's why people who write about it as though THEY have something fresh to say about it are either arrogant or ignorant or naive in the extreme, and often all three together.
Remmber in Israel generally Chareidim don't have a high school education! That alone is a significant difference from Chareidim in the US.
Not sure how much of a difference that makes, especially given what education in the US looks like. But its moot - I agree with you overall, they are very different.
Another soldier was killed when he and other chayalim stopped a suspected terrorist. He just nay have saved the lives of other Jews.
I know the Mi Shebairach Lachayalim is not said in chareidi yeshivot or chareidi shuls. But why not a Kapittal Tehillim asking Hashem to protect chayalim?!
There are many charedim who support individual chayalim privately in all sorts of ways. But one has to be fair - to formalize a shul tefilah is tantamount to recognizing something as an official institution, akin to the government. And the establishment of an avowedly non-religious government in Eretz YiIsroel is by no means universally agreed to or supported.
ה' ינקום דמו, וישמור כל חיילי צה"ל, אכיה"ר.
"But one has to be fair - to formalize a shul tefilah is tantamount to recognizing something as an official institution, akin to the government."
The מי שברך לחיילים is preceded by the מי שברך למדינת ישראל. So saying the מי שברך לחיילים and not מי שברך למדינת ישראל would be non-recognition of the State. Davening for the soldiers only while ignoring the government itself, would be a clear non-recognition of the government while praying for those who R' Aryeh Levin called מלאכים. Not saying either, reflects either indifference or a highly conservative attitude towards changing the procedure in the בית כנסת.
In any case, there is a tough dilemma in much of the normal חרדי world. There is implicit support for the people who put their lives on the line for the defense of the nation. But they haven't figured out to express that support in a formal way. I suspect any solution would cause the goon squad to overreact and declare any such innovation as heresy.
And so the חרדי world is viewed (with only partial justification) as being indifferent. (It doesn't help that חרדי spokespeople malign soldiers with false accusation of holding a כוחי ועוצם ידי attitude.) The חרדי world should come up with their own way of expressing concern for the security of the nation and ignore the goon squad.
I am aware of the dilemna of a charedi shul or yeshiva saying some type a Tefilla of some sort for the IDF.
But it is also a religious dilemma. I am sure no chareidi wants to see the IDF fail and Jews are killed. By not turning and asking Hashem for help to protect each soldier, and for the success of missions is like refusing to ask Hashem to help guide the hands of a surgeon.
שבת שלום
An IDF soldier was killed as the IDF was leaving Jenin. Yet the chareidi yeshivot still won’t say the Mi Shebairach for Hayalim, not even a Kapital Tehillim asking Hashem to protect our soldiers.
"many people suggest that it will ultimately resolve itself." We may be very unhappy with the resolution.
Even if the crisis is in the future (and I don't agree that it is) the solution must be now. Tomorrow is too late.
Historically, during periods when donations from abroad were scarce, the population in Israel was starving, disease-ridden, and dirt poor. Hmmm... funny how that works.
It's not like the Jews in Europe were having an easy time. People literally starved on the streets, when they weren't experiencing pogroms.
My point is hashem didn't magically save them when the money dried up
Why does evil exist? That's a different question.
Shalom Jake,
Your argument is unassailable. I confess my ignorance and defer to your opinion. Thank you for enlightening me.
The government gives billions t of shekels a year to Bedouins
I have been living in bnei brak for several months and many job preparation courses exist for kollel guys like MeGo, and JBH, one has close to a thousand enrolled in Haifa, BB, Jerusalem, Ashdod, and other cities, and the other in BB from Elad. I personally know people and have attended for fun, certian classes in these programs and they have less than a 5% drop out rate. I wouldn’t underestimate the ability for a smart, Torah learning Jew to integrate as many of these guys are smart, despite having to take care of a wife and several children. The wife also works. Soon, there will be a large influx of charedim in the hitech workforce as they already realized you need to work for a good living.
" I personally know people and have attended for fun, certian classes in these programs and they have less than a 5% drop out rate. "
Unclear. What do you mean "for fun"? Aren't these programs subsidized for the purpose of earning a living? Isn't taking such classes for fun, and not for their purpose a little unethical? What are these "certain classes"? Just the ones that are taken for fun? Or just the ones with low dropout? Or both?
" I wouldn’t underestimate the ability for a smart..."
What about those who are not that smart?
Sorry for the confusion. I specifically went in to learn something, not part of the program but the rest of them were and are enrolled for 16 months or longer. Lol, is it unethical to sit in a class for fun? I dont know, and I dont think anyone else would be asking that. Ive also sat in classes I wasnt enrolled in at various universities so maybe I’m going to gehinom. Id also usually get the explicit permission from the teachers, and even when certain teachers that I have not notified found out , they were flattered, welcoming and happy I joined. Id sometimes cooperate more than most enrolled classmates. Besides the whole זה נהנה וזה אינו חסר, I would say your criticism of me sitting in classes voluntarily as an “unethical” choice as a strong indication that you are not being intellectually honest in your response. You are biased and won’t look at facts, and would prefer to poke moral holes in my persona so as to derail a perfectly sound argument.
What I meant to say with the word smart, was that, in my experience, most charedim are intelligent. In stark contrast to modox jews, they dont spend inordinate amounts of time on Netflix, youtube, the movie theater, or playing games on their phones. Additionally, the classes in these courses are very easy at the beginning and are well staffed. They are very strict in making sure all enrolled are physically at the college every day, and actively learning. They have great lecturers who teach everything from the fundamentals to the advanced. So, while you dont have to be that smart to excel in these courses, you have to work hard consistently. And, let’s be honest, how many idiotic graduates do we have to see and hear about from both sides of the political spectrum to rule out a degree as being the only arbiter of intellectual capability.
This is my first ever comment on R Slifkins forum, and I agree with 90% ( dont count exactly) of what he says. I merely made the comment that I wouldnt underestimate the charedi communitys community to at least partially do well financially as something of a small dissent to a minor view of his about the charedi community as a whole and I get this annoyingly, low hitting, intellectually dishonest response??
It is people like you that respond to my comments that make me regret I ever posted in the first place. Maybe youre happy with that, because of your hate for charedim as opposed to honestly caring about the community and being concerned for its survival and growth.
WADR Sammy, you weren't clear enough. Ephraim misunderstood you in a fair way.
I concede this you are correct. However the חשש of whether it is ethical to sit in a class was imho way over the line of moral questionability, if thats a word.
" Lol, is it unethical to sit in a class for fun?"
No need to get snippy. You weren't clear and I asked for clarification. If these programs are being subsidized for helping students get a better career, and the program is being abused by people who have no interest in developing a career- than yes it's unethical.
"Ive also sat in classes I wasnt enrolled in at various universities so maybe I’m going to gehinom."
Auditing a class is not a problem. I was referring to people who enter the program without any interest in further their career.
" in my experience, most charedim are intelligent."
So you hang out with smart people. What about those people you don't hang out with? Should their education be limited to the high pressures of studying for a career starting in their later 20s, early 30s?
"they dont spend inordinate amounts of time on Netflix, youtube, the movie theater, or playing games on their phones."
It would profit society tremendously if people in general limit their time on nonsense.
"And, let’s be honest, how many idiotic graduates do we have to see and hear about from both sides of the political spectrum to rule out a degree as being the only arbiter of intellectual capability. "
Indeed. Degrees are only a certificate of potential. They at best indicate the starting point of the holder's knowledge. But since you've got to start somewhere, the degree is a useful metric to determine the base point of someone's knowledge and ability.
As far as the rest of your comment, there are two basic questions: What is the actual success rate of these educational programs? And what percentage of the post-kollel population are not fit for these programs and are not served by some other scheme? My point is that these programs are being presented as the solution for the problem. But are they an effective solution?
Id start with a Mishna in Avot. שבעה בגולם שבעה בחכם.
The Golem talks about the more important thing, last, and the miniscule first, while the Hacham chose to speak about the important thing, first and the less important last. You hang on to each word “smart charedim” when the issue of non intelligent people exists across the board, even amongst secular israelis. You question my personal moral veracity since I decided to “sit in a class”. Only after all of this nonsense do you deal with the topic at hand - the fact that charedim all across the state of Israel are learning to bolster their career and get better jobs. You can look up Mego, Jbh, and other programs for yourself and visit bnei brak and those programs if you so wish. I’m sure the heads of those programs will be fine with you sitting in a class as I know many of them personally. All I said was that I wouldn’t underestimate their capability to integrate into the workforce.
I don’t know the success rate of these programs, but I hear that it is higher than colleges and degrees, since certain corporations pay these programs to tailor make their learning structure for those positions like IT and so on, whereas college grads expect a much higher salary than their charedi counterparts. איזהו עשיר השמח בחלקו ironically applies here somewhat literally.
“Post kollel population that aren’t a fit for these programs” I don’t know and I don’t claim to have the answer for that’s part of the population. All I said was that I wouldn’t underestimate these programs. I could ask that same question for secular Israelis that don’t fit in the college curriculum. There are many other jobs and businesses that don’t require too much intellectual ability. But again that’s not the Ikar of what I said.
Are they an effective solution? Well, one program opened a year and a half ago, and they have close to 300 in total graduating by the end of this year, with a less than 5% drop out rate. So far, do you consider that effective? Do you think that’s not at least helping?
תפסת מרובה לא תפסת you can’t expect to find a solution that will help 100% of the population and for every demographic. Certain things take time and success breeds success.
All I said is that I don’t think it is accurate to say that this problem is almost unsolvable, and with respect to R Slifkin, the dropout rate is nowhere near 50%.
I’m sure you can see how that could rub me the wrong way. Everything is debatable. But if you’re intellectually honest, would you really consider, sitting in any class whatsoever, even not for the purpose of furthering one’s career but because the person is curious about the subject and/or college, you, and not any rabbi, or anyone would consider that “unethical”. Not reasonable and if you’re honest with yourself, not acceptable to criticize someone else as doing. That attack disguised as an question, is really against something I sense you don’t like to hear about- charedi success, essentially invalidates much of what you say afterwards. I dont think that sitting for fun in a subsidized class is “abuse of the system”, no more than I think that sitting in a University class that is paid both by the gov and by students is “abuse”.
I already said that a degree can be an indication of someone’s intellect.
What percentage of those who enroll in secular colleges drop out? Are colleges in Israel such a great solution for secular Israelis? I personally went to bar Ilan and know those who got a degree and went right back to their day jobs. A flight attendant at El Al with two degrees, and a construction worker amongst many others. There are numerous that can’t afford a second degree, which has become a baseline to get a high paying job. What about less smart secular Israeli Jews? I personally know many of them that struggle, despite working all day as delivery men and in the menial job workforce.
By the way at Bar Ilan there are charedi business management tracks, at the Open University, and at ORT. The main thing is that they separate between men and women. I went out with a girl who works for the Israeli tax authority as a cpa, and who started studying computer science at the open university full time, and attended Lustig, a charedi girls college. Mivchar also exists for girls and I hear its pretty good. Limudei teuda for charedi women, graphic design and architecture. היישוב is an elementary school (as opposed to cheider) is a good charedi option for kids to learn english and math. I roomed with a charedi guy from petah tikva and he was working in and studying medicine at the open university. Its very simple. These programs are good and effective. Not all though I’m not sure. But the basic understanding is that if a charedi guy or gal wants to succeed, they do have options and the abilities to. Its not the same for other segments of the population for sure, but the solutions exist. I dont know if it exists for every part of the charedi community though I hope it does or will be.
All I said were two things: don’t underestimate these programs and the charedims ability to integrate and succeed in the workforce, and the drop out rate the R Slifkin wrote is unfortunately not completely accurate.
I never said that it is ideal for charedim to start studying later on in life, though it’s better than nothing.
I just found out my neighbor is a chussid who wears a streimel, and I learned that he studies IT at night and works during the day. He makes pretty good money…
From the outside things may seem very different, just like if you watch news about what goes on in israel, it feels very different when you are living there, so too bnei brak. Living in tel aviv for a short time as well, I got to know a large amount of religious people, meals, classes from charedi to dati leumi, and to (the unfortunate) dati light. You never know.
אל תדון אדם עד שתגיע למקומו
"he’s in his thirties or forties or fifties, in a dire financial situation, with numerous children. At that point, he simply doesn’t have the luxury of spending years catching up on a missed secular education and studying for a career that pays a meaningful salary"
Well, he doesn't need to
He can just import hundreds of packets of cigarettes instead